Fakery.


Manish elsewhere on this site made a post about an attempt to ascribe religious feeling to genetic evolution. Blaise P. made a reply that I find to be both beautifuly written and completely wrongheaded on the matter. I was going to reply there, but on further consideration I think Blaise raises an issue of some philosophical import, and one that he's brought up in a number of different contexts. So perhaps it deserves it's own discussion. The heart of his post, as I see it.

We stretch the skin of faith over the unknown, we look into the sheltering sky and the moving sea, dreaming of gods, personifications of the forces beyond our control. Dow would tell us these things are unverifiable, unreal, impractical. Smug idiocy! The unseen is all too real, and Dow has no explanations for love or loss or the joy of weddings or the rites of transformation. Genetic religion, quatsch! Love is not unique to man, nor is grief nor joy. Nor is he alone in looking into the night sky and contemplating eternity, the universe in a drop of water or the majesty of a surfacing whale. It is the sheerest hubris to believe our species is superior to the others. Time and tide led us here, and mankind is forever attempting to describe what lies beyond his reach, This was our purpose, from hence arose these massive frontal lobes.

The original in total.

The ending of one of Asimov's Foundation series comes to mind.

The protagonist has been falling for a woman who has been deeply entwined in his adventures to date. But, given the setting of the series, he's unsure whether she's actually a woman or just a clever simulacrum of one, rendering her apparent love for him in some way "fake". She points out that if she were a robot of some sort, a very clever fake, programmed to care for him, watch out for him and in all ways to put his interests ahead of her own, her love for him would be as "real" as any other.

You know why I love my wife and kids? Ultimately, because several billion years of evolution have designed me to do so. Nothing more or less. This does not make my feelings any less real (nor the elephant's and monkey's that Blaise refers to elsewhere in his post, for that matter.) It is not "beyond our reach". That's romantic nonsense. My feelings, and the monkey's and the elephant's, exist because humans and monkeys and elephants that had said feelings were more likely to make additional humans and monkeys and elephants that survived to reproduce in their turn. That is all ye know and all ye need know. The feelings are most certainly real. I smile when my kids smile, I'm sad when my wife is hurt, I'd kill the lot of you without a blink in order to save them, if it came down to such an unfortunate circumstance. But that in no way invalidates the fact that those feelings and the biological machinery that underpins them are no deep mystery. There is nothing beyond our reach, unless it lies beyond (or should I say in?) the heat-death of the universe.

I cannot say whether religion's underpinnings are biological, as is claimed in Manish's link, social or some interaction of the two. I haven't seen a well fleshed-out model yet, so we're still in the exploratory phase. But I think an a priori claim to a deep and unknowable mystery begins a flirtation with obscurantism that will do us no good.
--

The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.

- H.L. Mencken

--

The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.

- H.L. Mencken

--

The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.

- H.L. Mencken

--

The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

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there is more to it (#96444)
by Micky Love

You know why I love my wife and kids? Ultimately, because several billion years of evolution have designed me to do so. Nothing more or less.

You were not designed to love your wife, you chose to, or you made multiple decisions that paved the path to love as you got to know her. Our responsibility for the cultivation of our feelings is the nut of JP Sartre's most important thinking, I think. You may get an urge to kill everyone on the board, but it's your choice whether or not you act on it.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

To love is not a concious and free choice (#96484)
by Gramsky

or you havent met the right partner.

On a less light note the counter arguement goes along
the lines of what of those mothers and fathers that do
not love - did evolution fail ? are they just another
evolutionary branch and if all differences can be
attributed to 'just another evolutionary outcome'
then what testable predictions do we have concerning
the evolution of love as a mechanism for genetic
propogation...?

I think hes just a big softy and is too proud to
admit it.

billions of years, DNA and monkeys (#96486)
by Micky Love

You see an attractive woman. Do you choose to turn away or continue looking. Do you approach her or decide to stay put. Do you ask her for her number? Do you push forward or decline to pursue? This, I think, is what Sartre was getting at in simple terms. Love results from an aggregate of 1000s of such conscious micro-decisions, and of course a few big ones too. For me its Sartre's number one lesson, number two being it's not a good idea to write books while wolfing down Benzedrine.

I brought this to Bernard's attention because it nicely illustrates our responsibility for our predicaments. Too often Bernard takes refuge in vagaries like billions of years, DNA and monkeys when it comes to explaining himself.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

Decision at the supposedly concious level (#96550)
by Gramsky

affected by social conventions and rules...
...but yes its not entirely DNA coding.

And if BG thinks his behaviour is best described by
a horde of screaming monkeys, well who am I to disagree.

My monkeys drink... (#96583)
by Bernard Guerrero
Well, BG has probably never heard of an (#96485)
by mmghosh

arranged marriage. This was the norm until about 100 years ago, and still is in many parts of the world.

I've noted the softy, previously, too.

You jest! (#96488)
by Bernard Guerrero

One features prominently in a short I wrote some time back. Maybe I'll post it, now that K. is back on the board.

--

The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

Agreed without qualification. (#96433)
by mmghosh

And I will come up with another diary on the empirical basis of traditional morality.

Synechdochic fallacy, (#96381)
by Jordan

that is, the human mind operates with sets of a priori "folk psychological" conceptions that differ depending on the task at hand. For example, when we have to make life-and-death decisions quickly, or at least irrevocably, our notion of the world contracts so that we assume all we know at that moment is all there is to know, or all that is worth knowing.

In a more reflective mood we might say all we know at the moment represents all that there is available to know -- it's a microcosm or model of all that can be known.

Necessity causes us to employ these assumptions, both of which are of course fallacies. Synechdochic fallacies, that is: instead of using part to represent the whole, the distinction is elided and the part is taken for the whole, replaces so that we mistake the word for the thing itself, the picture of the Big Mac for the burger itself.

But evolution has also equipped us to question fallacies like these, in the form of a sense of wonder, awe, the sublime, the uncanny...mental triggers based on various realizations that all we see, all we hear, all we name with words is not even a tiny fraction of a percent of all there is to know.

Much as the visual cortex translates upside-down, fragmentary, 2-dimensional snapshots from the saccades of the eye into the illusion of a total visual field -- the illusion of totality is a self-deception and what we "see" is actually a complex combination of memory, hypothesis and current visual impressions.

Or another analogy from linguistics: the distinction between langue and parole, language and speech act reveals that no one person ever knows language in its entirety, even as the speech act must assume that knowledge of the total at least for practical purposes (of all available insults, you pick only the best one you can remember while the guy drives off with your car).

Consciousness, the 'unconscious' and the simply unknown. Bottom line, no human being at any one time knows all that is knowable, and of course even the most perceptive among us know nothing about what is unknown. But we're driven, presumably for reasons similar to what compels a cat to crawl into any unsniffed paper bag, to expand into the unknown, to wonder obsessively about it, to be annoyed and/or enthralled by it.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Well, as I've said elsewhere, let's not conflate How and Why. (#96330)
by BlaiseP

The How of evolution is a sum of vectors, driving all life into the forms we see today. Our genome seems to be more like an untidy scientist's notebooks. Active sites open, the double helix unzips, copies of the active site are sent through to the protein factories via messenger RNA transcriptase.

But the scientist never threw anything away. It seems, based on present analysis of the genome, vast tracts of the genome are junk, repetitions of the same sequences, meaningless until one considers the whim and vagary of the process which brought us here.

Males are blessed and cursed with the Rage Molecule, testosterone. A tiny thing, 288.424 g/mol. Yet consider its Why implications. From Achilles roaring before the gates of Troy to the shy adolescent boy inspecting the changes in his body, the Whys of testosterone are as complex as any man now reading this reply.

Most of life is beyond our reach. We are the little ape who looked up and saw the stars. We haven't reached a star yet, but we can split the light coming from them in prisms, as surely as a chemist looking for testosterone in his chromatograph. What does this teach us? Plenty of Hows and precious few Whys.

Whys aren't biological. They couldn't be. We men sit around and hear women say we are bullheaded and violent, sheepishly grinning to hear Men are Pigs. Are women any less piggish by dint of less testosterone and more estrogen? Haeckel's recapitulation theory has long since been debunked. As ontogeny does not recapitulate phylogeny, neither does ontology. Religion is the flower which grows on the plant of a culture, encapsulating a society's mores, rites and mythology, its hopes of heaven, its fears of hell. It is the truest of all our societal expressions, with all its curious and wonderful tidbits of creation, the doings of gods and men.

It should not surprise us therefore to see modern man reject religion so abruptly, for societies have declined into silent cubicles full of lonely people who return home to watch television, eating food they did not grow, whose feet and hands never touched the soil which grew them. Passive and overspecialized, they regret their pasts and fear their futures.

There is no distinction between How and Why for modern man. The Why is merely the How of the endless loop of his days, and the sacred is lost in the passive blur of images on billboards and television and now the Internet. The web of life which once bound him to the earth and the sky and the sea is shrink wrapped and bar coded at the supermarket, paid for with money directly deposited into his bank account by a corporation which views him as disposable, as disposable as the styrofoam tray holding the hamburger he buys made from a cow he never saw. He has little input into the lives of his children or the care of his parents. He dulls his mind with drugs, overeats, takes antidepressants, He is as isolated as an astronaut in orbit around a distant planet.

We all arrive at Why via different routes. We all have faith in something larger than ourselves, but faith in what? The simulacrum of Asimov's female android has been given life in chat rooms, where lonely hearts gather to assume alternate identities, including alternate gender identification. Online, we're all happy, wealthy, tanned and well-adjusted. We're well past the exploratory phase here, in a world where illusion sells product, which is the more real, that which sells or that which leads us to buy it?

And yet we (modern men) must figure out how (#96378)
by Bill White

to cope with all of this. Somehow.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Oh that's quite straightforward. Butt heads here on Forvm (#96380)
by BlaiseP

A noiseless, patient spider,
I mark’d, where, on a little promontory, it stood, isolated;
Mark’d how, to explore the vacant, vast surrounding,
It launch’d forth filament, filament, filament, out of itself;
Ever unreeling them—ever tirelessly speeding them.

And you, O my Soul, where you stand,
Surrounded, surrounded, in measureless oceans of space,
Ceaselessly musing, venturing, throwing,—seeking the spheres, to connect them;
Till the bridge you will need, be form’d—till the ductile anchor hold;
Till the gossamer thread you fling, catch somewhere, O my Soul.

-Walt Whitman

I agree. (#96329)
by aireachail

And it's useful to learn that I'm probably going to have to take you out first.

Nothing personal, certainly. Just time management.

--

Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

I feel your pain. (#96332)
by Bernard Guerrero
Golly! This is going (#96347)
by Elagabalus

to be a toughy as to which one will emerge triumphant. On one hand BG has NG experience but on the other hand aireachail is a gun collector and presumedly likes to shoot. Oh, screw it! How 'bout a chainsaw with a limited supply of gas? Thunderdome ... thunderdome ... thunderdome ...!!!

--

I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine

Heh; never fear... (#96412)
by aireachail

I'm only half kidding.

And "a gun collector and presumedly likes to shoot."? Heck...having spent 22 years as a Marine, I need to shoot more often that I need to (apologies to BP) "shid".

It's just that sometimes, when I read about how we're all rough and tumble/take what we need or want/screw the rest of 'em/independent actors, I like to point out that in such a world, I probably win, unless one can somehow learn to shoot better than I can :-)

--

Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

I have known many Marines, they all exhibit this need. (#96419)
by BlaiseP

I never liked the M-16 I was issued, and the M-203 was an awkward POS: a wretched rifle and a worthless grenade launcher. I carried an M-14 and kept an M-79 grenade launcher in the track for a long while, until a Mini-14 came out in the mid-70s and I made the driver carry the damned M-203. Getting 7.62 was never a problem, quite a few of us old-timers had them in the weapons room.

USMC always did more with less, and I thought they had a much better cut of NCOs and officers than the Army. Much sounder leadership skills, for all leadership is by example.

My goodness. (#96427)
by aireachail

You caught me off guard there, Blaise. Thinking about some of those young NCO's back over the years left me unable to do much else for a short time. Not all were exemplary to be sure, but some were truly astonishing individuals. Amongst the Corporals and Sergeants especially, there were some from whom I managed to learn even as a gray-haired old officer at the end of his career. The fact that I don't find myself in the company of as many such people these days leaves me slightly...melancholy.

But back to shooting!

I liked the lighter weight of the M-16 variants, but always hated the "sproing" of that recoil spring. The M-14 was a favorite, and it was issued to me both as a service weapon and as a competition rifle when I fired in inter-service matches. My favorite? A match-grade M-1 I had access to when I was in Yuma for a short while in the early 70's. The sights moved in 1/2 clicks, and I could call shots to .5" at 100 yds. As practice for matches, I could draw 100 rounds of hand-loaded match ammo and take the rifle and accoutrements out to a civilian silhouette range in the desert. It never failed to draw lots of attention when I drew it out of its plain OD quilted scabbard. Of course; I then had to hit what I was shooting at, lest the old-timers chew me up ;-)

--

Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

F*ing cool. - nt (#96429)
by Bernard Guerrero
Wow ... (#96415)
by Elagabalus

a "lefty-liberal" marine?! Say it ain't so!

--

I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine

I tend to think of myself (#96420)
by aireachail

as a centrist, as far as politics is concerned.

But in general terms, the label I think most accurately applies to me is: "correct".

:-)

--

Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

Well (#96418)
by Pranky

my father was in the Navy for over 20 years and did 4 tours of duty in Viet Nam. And there's people on this board who'd probably consider him a communist.

Hah! Clearly you missed.... (#96413)
by Bernard Guerrero

....the thread where we're talking about the gains from cooperation. I'd just have my wife shoot you while I draw fire. :^)

--

The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

But ... (#96414)
by Elagabalus

what's she gonna' do if aireachail gets to the chainsaw first?!

--

I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine

The whole point of this (#96416)
by aireachail

to to avoid the chainsaws!

Have you seen the price of gas? Premix gas?!

--

Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

Two-stroke man, eh? (#96417)
by Elagabalus

For shame ...

--

I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine

There's a (#96421)
by aireachail

"That's what she said" joke in there somewhere.

But that would be beneath me...

--

Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

Awrngh. He said "beneath me" (#96422)
by BlaiseP

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But not always.

I never liked that flick. Loved the first two Mad Max movies (#96351)
by BlaiseP

The Gyro Captain: No! It's *my* snake, I trained it, I'm going to eat it! I got a recipe for snake. Delicious. Fricassee of reptile. You are what you eat.

You take that a little far BG (#96324)
by hobbesist

I'm not going to defend romanticism (mostly because I can't assert it, and romantics get all cute arty girls, and--wait, does that mean romanticism is selected for?), but that 'loving ones family' is selected for doesn't mean it's a sufficient answer to the question of why you love your wife and kids. That'd be like me saying "'My coffee cup is blue' is true because it doesn't run afoul of the law of non-contradiction;" or "I'm a 6'1", 30 year old white guy because I didn't develop any fatal congenital defects in the womb."

Or, if you want your explanation to be different from my examples, you need to appeal to some as-yet-undeveloped robust evolutionary anthropology.

"There is nothing beyond our reach"

So one a priori claim deserves another? Maybe we should just be chary about making a priori claims altogether ;D

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

I was replying to Blaise, so.... (#96326)
by Bernard Guerrero

...I felt the need to put in at least one bit of hyperbolic rhetoric. :^)

(I kid, B., I kid!)

--

The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

Zing! -nt- (#96328)
by hobbesist

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

More seriously, I don't believe.... (#96334)
by Bernard Guerrero

....we have any theory robust enough to predict the details (i.e. why did I fall in love with my wife specifically?), but it's robust enough to be a groundwork for what must follow. This isn't explaining why your mug is blue, this is explaining that your mug must tend to resemble a cavity because liquids in a gravity field flow to find their level (helium II a partial exception.)

--

The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

Always trust the poets. They say it best (#96365)
by BlaiseP

Accidentally on Purpose

The Universe is but the Thing of things,
The things but balls all going round in rings.
Some mighty huge, some mighty tiny,
All of them radiant and mighty shiny.

They mean to tell us all was rolling blind
Till accidentally it hit on mind
In an albino monkey in the jungle,
And even then it had to grope and bungle,

Till Darwin came to earth upon a year
To show the evolution how to steer.
They mean to tell us, though, the Omnibus
Had no real purpose until it got to us.

Never believe it. At the very worst
It must have had the purpose from the first
To produce purpose as the fitter bred:
We were just purpose coming to a head.

Whose purpose was it, His or Hers or Its?
Let's leave that to the scientific wits.
Grant me intention, purpose and design -
That's near enough for me to the divine.

And yet with all this help of head and brain,
How happily instinctive we remain.
Our best guide upward farther to the light:
Passionate preference such as love at sight.

The noncontradictory blue cup. (#96364)
by hobbesist

My suggestion with that example--which was maybe a little hyperbolized (what can I say? must be going around ...)--was to suggest that talking about a behavior as selected-for functions more like a condition of possibility than cause. If that's right, yes, it's a groundwork for working toward an explanation, but that's not yet itself an explanation.

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

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