Quoth the raven,


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I'd be more amused w. this pop econ 'omen' indicator (#102521)
by catchy

if your profession in practice manifested some distinction between garbage science + objective analysis.

Instead, no economists will be held accountable for the current mess despite the fact that many who knew better should have been more vocal, and the practitioners will continue selling out however they see fit.

If I had my way we'd toss you boys right outta the National Academy of Sciences.

Not just b/c your science is dismal, but b/c its practioners are unclean.

_My_ profession? (#102547)
by Bernard Guerrero

Hah! My job is figuring out whether people are going to pay their debts or not. The deliverables are very straightforward and easily testable against reality (read "90+ days past due rate"), and accountability = job tenure and/or bonus. I can't even claim to play an economist on TV.

Talk to PM. Me, I'm pretty sure Krugman & DeLong have mostly been in shill mode for years. The recent oil price spikes have been good for Kruggy, it's getting him to start thinking again.

--

The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

Er, no. (#102578)
by Punditus Maximus

When they're talking econ, Krugman and DeLong are economists. When they're talking media criticism or other items, they're private citizens. But they don't commit the cardinal sin Mankiw regularly does, which is lie about economic fact or theory.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

whoops. I knew better BG (#102565)
by catchy

but who wants to let that get in the way of a rant?

Krugman is payed to offer his opinions often on matters not related to economics. I'm more concerned about CEA people and folks appearing as objective analysts on TV, etc.

DeLong has actually been pretty good in highlighting how e.g. Mankiw has just jumped ship re basic principles in the profession -- obviously in order to acheive personal gains that have nothing to do with the goals of the field.

It'd be fun to compile a bunch of specific cases and make an argument for excommunicating economic sciences from the NAS. Perhaps PM already has such a proposal written up.

But anyway, at this stage do you have a vote? Kick economics out of the NAS or no?

Oh we mustn't harsh on economists too much. (#102524)
by BlaiseP

It's rather like homeopathy, which has very considerable application in certain circumstances. We're in the dark about many aspects of the immune system, economies are no different. We get the sniffles, we take an antihistamine and a decongestant. Sure does feel good not to blow your nose so much, but it's only prolonging the cold. Steroids work short-haul wonders on arthritis, but the side effects are ugly. Everyone wants a short-term solution to our aches and pains, but we're rarely willing to do what it takes to avoid trouble. America's got an epidemic of Type II diabetes, and it's all obesity-related. The economists are all in agreement: our current economic models are unsustainable. Capitalism demands ever more and more, until at last the Tower of Babel collapses, and it always does. Socialism depends on a rip-roaring economy to build the safety net. Communism will never work, mostly because people do like to own stuff. Telling Americans they need to save and invest, not run up their credit cards falls on deaf ears. It's like the guy who has a gym subscription and never uses it: we know this model is unsustainable, that we must make painful concessions to reality, but we want short term fixes like giving Bernanke more and more authority. Someone else will solve our problems, we think.

This mess is rather beyond anyone's ability to control, least of all the economists and largely beyond the politicians, too.

My comment should have read (#102528)
by catchy

that economics should be tossed out of the National Academy of Sciences not principally b/c it's a dismal science -- a lot of the behavioral sciences are as well -- but b/c far too many economists are a bunch of for-sale hacks.

I mean really, the NAS may just as well incorporate the legal profession.

Economics is a science... (#102543)
by Macallan

...when it looks backward.

It's bs when looking forward, and mostly bs when looking at today.

It's just archeology with calculus. I doubt many would bet real money on an archeologist's predictions of the future, yet…

--

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

There's a old saying. (#102553)
by Punditus Maximus

"Economists are here to make meteorologists look good."

The thing is, we can give reasonably good predictions of the broad outlines of policy. The problem is that folks want a level of precision that just isn't reasonable for a chaotic system like a nation's economy.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

It might make more sense for economists to say (#102555)
by BlaiseP

as do theoretical physicists and philosophers -- I observe this phenomenon and apply it to this framework.

Too often, economists are misunderstood. Competing schools of thought might place a premium on one particular outcome over another.

Forgive me a little rant on the economics of an old Liberal here. Your indulgence is requested.

Take my own position on free markets: regulation ought to vary directly with risk in a given market. Commodities futures markets, a market I know reasonably well, is regulated from within and without. Buys have to match sells and there's nothing sadder than the line of guys at the outtrade window, trying to make it otherwise. Regulation is written in blood, generally speaking. When so-called Free Marketeers wish to abolish a particular bit of regulation, however obscure, alarm bells ought to go off: he's already dreaming up a scam. This is not to say regulation shouldn't be constantly revisited and friction taken out of markets on an as-needed basis, but far too often, as in the Enron fiasco, the deregulators are merely well-connected gonifs intent on pillage and rapine.

I call myself a Liberal. My personal yardsticks for measuring a society look at the poorest of the poor and extend upwards. How fare the worst-off? How goes it with the insane, the prisoner, the elderly, the child, the stranger, the homeless? Conservatives build skyscrapers, Liberals build sewers, and both of us are needed.

But if the poor are to rise from poverty, should I care that the rich get richer? I don't think so. I don't care how rich anyone gets, as long as the poor rise toward the middle class. Taxing the hell out of capital gains will mostly hurt retirees who wisely invested their money and now put it back into the economy. In this I suppose I am no Bleeding Heart Liberal, intent upon taxing the hell out of the rich. The rich employ the poor. Their money makes money, and upon consideration of what I know of macroeconomics, there is no excuse for poverty anywhere in the world. Were every child given an education, especially the girl children of the world, we would live in a veritable paradise. Any girl given 12 years of education will statistically have less than 2 children. Forget all this nonsense about abortion: the best birth control pill is a schoolbook.

Conservatives and Liberals have more in common than they might first believe. Conservatives are not hard-hearted people: often they are the most generous and considerate of all. They don't condescend to the poor, tossing ducats out of the carriage window. They understand what many well-intentioned Liberals do not: the poor do want to work and the poor deeply resent handouts. This is why so many poor people naturally gravitate away from the Ivory Tower Liberals: the poor instinctively understand all they need is a goddamn job and well-run schools and good police and freedom from the tyranny of social service agencies. If there's one philosophy Liberals must evict from our thinking, it is this: that Conservatives do not care about the poor.

I actually agree. (#102537)
by Punditus Maximus

There desperately needs to be some kind of board that says, "Ok, man, you changed professions."

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Bart: Stampeding (#102520)
by BlaiseP


Bart: Stampeding cattle.
Hedley Lamarr: That's not much of a crime.
Bart: Through the Vatican?
Hedley Lamarr: [smiling] Kinkyyyy. Sign here.

Well? Which is it gonna be, young feller? (#102504)
by Jordan

You want we should man the lifeboats, or put the women & children first?

Also, broken link.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Danke. (#102509)
by Bernard Guerrero

You want we should man the lifeboats, or put the women & children first?

We can't afford to quibble over language at a time like this! Pedantry kills!

--

The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

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