"A war that should never have been authorized and should never have been waged."
Dead spot on 100% correct! Also, going forward . . .
"Now, we are going to be as careful getting out as we were careless getting in ... November 2007"
Extended excerpts from Obama concerning Iraq:
OBAMA HAS CONSISTENTLY SAID HE WILL LISTEN TO COMMANDERS ON THE GROUND IN IMPLEMENTING HIS POLICYJune 2008: Obama: I’ve Consistently Said That I Will Consult With Military Commanders On The Ground And Be Open To The Possibility Of Tactical Adjustments. Obama said, "I've also consistently said that I will consult with military commanders on the ground and that we will always be open to the possibility of tactical adjustments. The important thing is to send a clear signal to the Iraqi people and most importantly to the Iraqi leadership that the U.S. occupation in Iraq is finite, it is gonna be coming to a foreseeable end." [MSNBC, 6/16/08]
March 2008: Obama Said He Would Give Senior Military Leaders Opinions Great Weight In Implementing His Iraq Plan But As Commander In Chief Would Make His Own Assessment Of The Situation. Obama was asked "what weight will you give to the counsel of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the CENTCOM [U.S. Central Command] commander, the combatant commander on the ground in Iraq and current intelligence chiefs on the ground in Iraq regarding an immediate phased withdrawal?" Obama said, "I will give their counsel great weight. But, as commander in chief, it is my responsibility to make my own assessment of the situation. We must send a clear signal to the Iraqi political leadership that we are leaving Iraq on a timeline. Doing so will put pressure on those leaders to begin to resolve the political impasse at the heart of this civil war. But I also want to be clear about another thing. I am worried our Army is overstretched and that we have asked an awful lot from our military families. Many in our senior military leadership are worried about a plan that will keep 130,000 troops on the ground in Iraq for the foreseeable future. So, as commander in chief, I will also have to take into consideration the counsel of other senior military leaders who may be concerned that Iraq is undercutting our ability to confront other security challenges." [Washington Post, 3/2/08]
March 2008: Obama Said The Size Of The Residual Force Will Depend On Consultation With Military Commanders And "Will Depend On The Circumstances On The Ground." Obama said, "The precise size of the residual force will depend on consultations with our military commanders and will depend on the circumstances on the ground, including the willingness of the Iraqi government to move toward political accommodation. But let me be clear on one thing: I will end this war, and there will be far fewer Americans in Iraq conducting a much more limited set of missions that include counterterrorism and protection of our embassy and U.S. civilians." [Washington Post, 3/2/08]
November 2007: Obama Said He Would Leave Residual Troops In Iraq Based On The Levels Of Violence, "It’s Not My Job To Specify Troop Levels." Obama said, "If we see a serious effort by the Iraqi leadership to arrive at an agreement and an accommodation and you've seen continued reductions of violence, then you need one level of troop protection for the embassy...If things have gone to hell in a hand basket then you need another ... It's not my job to specify troop levels. My job is to tell our commanders on the ground, ‘Here's your mission. Protect our embassy, protect our diplomats and our humanitarian workers in the area and make sure al Qaeda in Iraq, or other terrorist organizations inside of Iraq are not re-establishing bases there." [Fosters, 11/28/07]
November 2007: Obama Said U.S. Has To Make Sure "We Are Not Just Willy-Nilly Removing Troops" And That It May "Take A Little Bit Longer" In Some Areas Where There Is Less Stability. "According to all the reports, we should have been well along our way in getting the Iraqi security forces to be more functional. We then have another 16 months after that to adjust the withdrawal and make sure that we are withdrawing from those areas, based on advice from the military officers in the field, those places where we are secured, made progress and we’re not just willy-nilly removing troops, but we’re making a determination – in this region we see some stability. We’ve had cooperation from local tribal leaders and local officials, so we can afford to remove troops here. Here, we’ve still got problems, it’s going to take a little bit longer. Maybe those are the last areas to pull out." [New York Times, 11/1/07]
November 2007: Obama: "If The Commanders Tell Me They Need X, Y And Z, In Order To Accomplish The Very Narrow Mission That I’ve Laid Out, Than I Will Take That Into Consideration." "You raise a series of legitimate questions. As commander in chief, I’m not going to leave trainers unprotected. In our counterterrorism efforts, I’m not going to have a situation where our efforts can’t be successful. We will structure those forces so they can be successful. We would still have human intelligence capabilities on the ground. Some of them would be civilian, as opposed to military, some would be operating out of our bases as well as our signal intelligence...But listen, I am not going to set up our troops for failure and I’m going to do something half-baked. If the commanders tell me that they need X, Y and Z, in order to accomplish the very narrow mission that I’ve laid out, than I will take that into consideration." [New York Times, 11/1/07]
November 2007: Obama: "Even Something As Simple As Protecting Our Embassy Is Going To Dependent On What Is The Security In Baghdad...If There Is Some Sense Of Security, Then That Means One Level Of Force. If You Continue To Have Significant Sectarian Conflict, That Means Another." "I have not ascribed particular numbers to that and I won’t for precisely the reason I was just talking to Michael about. I want to talk to military folks on the ground, No. 1. No. 2, a lot of it depends on what’s happened on the political front and the diplomatic front. Even something as simple as protecting our embassy is going to be dependent on what is the security environment in Baghdad. If there is some sense of security, then that means one level of force. If you continue to have significant sectarian conflict, that means another, but this is an area where Senator Clinton and I do have a significant contrast." [New York Times, 11/1/07]


Bill, Looks like you and
(#101852)Bill,
Looks like you and Sparticvs were submitting your diaries at about the same time. There are now 3 threads covering the same debate. I'll just link to my comment here http://theforvm.org/diary/spartacvs/obama-reverses-position-iraq#comment-101850 (which contains links to my commments on the first thread).
The arguments and questions addressed to Sparticvs in that comment apply as my response to your diary as well.
tactical adjustment
(#101588)but the 16 month withdrawal strategy remains.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
Correct
(#101591)for once.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentand whatever happens, happens
(#101627)After all they are just Arabs!
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
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parentDarfur
(#101633)and Congo, just Africans.
The key word in the above quote is 'potential' but you knew that, no?
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentgenocides and potential
(#101656)should play a key role in developing strategies, no?
With respect to Darfur, I believe Chinese appears to be the operative word.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
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parentNeocon thinking - oxymoron
(#101673)Would any such potential real or imagined*, play a key role if Iraq were a) not an oil producing state with vast known oil reserves and 2) not a country that shares a border with Iran?
Thanks for playing.
* in the sense of played for all its worth.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentWell thank you and I'm not even Jewish
(#101682)bta, the first neocon, Summer Welles, wasn't either. Since I started out as a Scoop Jackson Democrat, the migration has been painless.
The facts on the ground are
1. Not only does Iraq border Iran, it is lead by Shias, who have developed (are developing) a working relationship with Kurds and Sunnis. It is often referred to as democracy. I will let you come to the proper conclusions on how that should be view.
2. If you have filled up your tank lately, oil is important.
3. (and not mentioned), Iraq is the crossroads of the Middle East.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
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parentBankruptcy
(#101690)moral - look it up.
Is this the same country that kicked the French and Brits out of Suez or the same one that perpetuated a lost cause in SE Asia 5 years longer than was necessary to end it on the same terms?
Only time and an upcoming election will tell.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentThe Suez Crisis of 56
(#101692)where the US pursued its anti-colonialims mantra (that would have been, the French, Brits and Israelis). And I hope you are not referring to the scenario where the Democrats cut off funding to the SVA and the following results.
Welles would have been viewed as one of the key drivers of the "Atlantic Charter".
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
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parentI was referring
(#101695)to the moral leadership success of Ike and the abject failure of Richard M Nixon.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentWhat I find so amusing is that Nixon
(#101700)had a timetable for the removal of U.S. troops from Nam and he delivered.
Where we (the Dems in Congress) failed was in meeting our obligations to the SVA.
Thanks for the effort in changing the subject. BTW, the migration started with Reagan, not Nixon.
Of note, never forget the Diem Brothers.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
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parentHe delivered
(#101701)on the same terms he could have had 5 years earlier. 5 years of death and destruction on both sides that needn't have taken place but did.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentROFL
(#101705)this should help, hopefully.
Don't forget the Diem Brothers.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
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parentWhile you are here
(#101708)and this conversation is going nowhere.
New follow on from sixteen words.
And don't bother referencing the Butler report, that was a British report meant to cover British misconduct and is irrelevant to the consideration of an American presidents misconduct.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentWhenever the sixteen words are rolled out
(#101716)and since sixteen words reference British Intelligence as the sole source, the Butler Report is the apt response.
The follow-up is
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
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parentThat's what is known as a cop out
(#101752)Bush retracted and rightly so because American intelligence didn't support the claim/propaganda implicit in the SOTU statement.
Bill's statement condemning Halabja notwithstanding, what was the considered judgment of the IAEA and the world's intelligence agencies regarding regarding Iraq's nuclear capabilities immediately prior to the launch of the Messinpotamia?
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentIt wasn't retracted
(#101895)The administration stands by the 16 words, as does the British government. The administration said it was a mistake to use them in the SOTU because we didn't use U.S.-based sourcing.
If you don't have any fresh ideas, then you use stale tactics to scare the voters.--Barack Obama, 2008
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parentStands by in what sense?
(#101933)Good enough to fool the rubes in say a press conference but not quite the level of truthiness required for a SOTU address?
My what standards.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentwhen did the world's intelligence agencies change their position
(#101760)I believe the CIA's last comment on the WMD subject overall was "slam dunk".
Second and unrelated, please reread the sixteen word statment as your spin is incorrect with respect to what is being sought as compared to what was immediately available. It should help with your confused position.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
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parentNot WMD Timmy
(#101774)Nuclear, RTFQ.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentThose sixteen words mentioned the
(#101797)acquisition of a necessary substance, not the actual product.
But please read the Butler Report, it will help.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
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parentDoes the oft quoted Butler Report
(#101820)make any mention of how Saddam was going to turn yellowcake into weapons grade uranium under the noses of the IAEA and other interested parties?
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentTogether we can stop Future Crime. -nt-
(#101765).
Don't believe everything you think.
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parentChange of topic in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... nt
(#101754)I blame it all on the Internet
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parentThe difference
(#101511)Prior to Thursday, he has stuck to his 16-month withdrawal plan. Sure, he'll talk to generals, but within the context of the best way of getting all combat brigades out in 16 months. On Thursday, he made his "pace of withdrawal" statement, which suggested that he would change his timeline.
If you don't have any fresh ideas, then you use stale tactics to scare the voters.--Barack Obama, 2008
It'll be faster than 16 months.
(#101519)The Iraqis want us out. Like yesterday. Obama will oblige them.
First thing Obama ought to do upon swearing the oath is to discontinue every contract with Blackwater and Mitchell-Jessen, who everyone in the know calls the Mormon Mafia.
You don't wear a uniform and carry a CAC card in your wallet? You stay the hell out of the intelligence gathering business.
Every no-bid contractor during the last seven years would be audited. I'd set up the IG of the Army to conduct a complete accounting for this war, and a whole lot of fat cats would do perp walks. Harry Truman saved the USA billions during WW2, eliminating fraud and wastefulness with his Truman Committee. No such entity exists today, and Obama ought to institute one immediately. Lord knows how much we might recoup from these grifters and lowlifes.
Oh, Obama will talk to the generals all right. Something tells me he's also going to talk to the Sgt. Major of the Army and his Marine equivalents, and suss out what the hell's going wrong in the ranks and why our troops are so badly served. The malfeasance is so gross, so obvious, so repellent, it will require a Hercules to clean out the Augean Stables of military contracting.
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parentThat Vanity Fair article is disturbing reading,
(#101570)and more proof that President Obama will spend much of his first term cleaning up the mess of the past eight years.
I for one hope there are extensive investigations, and I hope people go to jail. Surely the goal of war in Iraq was not to enrich crooked private contractors.
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parentDemocracy in Iraq?
(#101587).
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
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parentGood for him
(#101516)the contrast with the current occupant and his party's aspirant to succeed him couldn't be more clear or more inspiring.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentThanks for clearing that up, Bill. -nt-
(#101394).
Don't believe everything you think.
Bookmark "The Jed Report"
(#101397)A terrific rapid reaction blog that shall become even more necessary as the McCain-iacs increasingly accuse Obama of taking positions he never held and then attack him over those positions.
This is the source of all these quotes
http://www.jedreport.com/2008/07/the-question-is.html
CNN (and the others) want a horse race and will distort what Obama says to help achieve that horse race.
But recent polling has Obama ahead of McCain in . . .
MONTANA!
The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.
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parentThe Senator appreciates your support
(#101384)It's very important that his cynical sellout of his anti-war supporters, not be viewed as a cynical sellout by his anti-war supporters.
“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
Everything before the Comma is incorrect...
(#101518)Everything after it displays an only casual acquaintance with the Senator's supporters.
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
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parentGuns and religion not enough?
(#101424)deleted
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentLast summer I was arguing with Team Hillary
(#101392)people that by being against the Iraq war from the beginning, Obama would have more room to operate at the end of the Iraq war.
Yes, there are those at Daily Kos who argue (following Mayor Daley - 1968) just put our troops on a plane and bring them home. Leave behind the Abrams tanks, etc . . .
Plenty of others (me included) have told them that attitude is simply loony-tunes.
Anyway, by being against the war back in 2002, Obama now has more political capital to adopt a well thought out plan for leaving Iraq going forward.
The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.
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parentIt's not anti-war, it's anti-this-war-in-Iraq.
(#101389)Obama still has the support of his progressive buddies. We're not idiots, you know, we know a sell-out when we see one. Obama will listen to the military, like Bill Clinton listened to his military. Bush didn't listen to his: he fired everyone who disagreed with him.
Maybe you ought to let us Progressives speak for ourselves, instead of putting words in our mouths. We've been sold a bill of goods on Iraq, right from the start. Every goddamn word of it has been proven to be a lie, right down to the Marvelous Progress we're making in Iraq. That Marvelous Progress is because we're no longer kicking in doors and scaring chickens. We're taking orders from the Iraqis, like we shoulda always done. The authors and sponsors of this idiocy in Iraq are all cashiered: old Don Rumsfeld is a nobody now. All the critics of this war from within the military are now heeded. The Iraqis themselves are taking charge of this fight, and Bush doesn't like it one bit. All his hopeful dreams of fifty cent gasoline have gone down the tubes.
In short, the Progressives were right to back Obama, and they correctly rejected Hillary Clinton's ideas. We won the debate, and we're going to win the election. We're trusting Obama to get us the hell out of this idiocy, and it will require more skill getting us out than the bludgeoning fearmongering of the Republicans who got us into this mess. You Republicans can sit down and shut up: you've got nothing to say about what we feel or who we back. We know this situation requires fresh thinking, not the same old maundering idiocy that's been cranked out of the Republican camp. Will you finally get it through your heads, once and for all, that your rhetoric and rationale has failed?
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parentThanks for writing this.
(#101471)Well put. Perfectly worded.
Thanks.
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parentPutting words in our mouths
(#101393)is McCain's only viable strategy for November.
We can expect to see more of it.
The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.
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parentWhat was that LBJ did, way back when?
(#101398)Something about accusing his opponent of having carnal relations with a dog. When his supporters were left aghast, LBJ said something to this effect: let him deny it.
It's the same tiresome crap they always pull out of the sack. Watching McCain bravely attempt to phonetically sound out some support for the pro-life position after years of saying he supported Roe v Wade on the grounds of preventing illegal abortions, well, it's just horrible watching McCain knuckle under.
But don't dream of accusing McCain of flip-flopping. Now he's Back in the Fold, one of the Righteous Right. It's depressing, it really is. McCain is just puckering up, kissing every ring and ass proffered to him by the Same Old Sorry Bastards who've been ruining the Republican Party since Reagan.
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parentIt was a pig not a dog
(#101401)and according to legend the notion supposedly proffered by LBJ to his campaign manager was to begin circulating the rumor that his main opponent in a congressional race, a pig farmer, was practicing animal husbandry a bit too literally
"Jesus, Lyndon," the campaign manager was said to have responded. "Nobody's going to believe that."
"Yeah," quoth LBJ, "but I want to hear the SOB deny it."
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentThanks for straightening out that wonderful old chestnut.
(#101407)Will Obama be reduced to denying all these allegations? I think he's shown pretty good boxing form to this point, but the Republican Oppo-mongers are down at the Slime Factory working on New and Improved concoctions.
I don't see the Flip Flop issues going very far. Obama will respond with the best of all Republican right crosses: raising the hue and cry of Throw Out the Rascals, and the Repubs won't be able to trump it.
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parentThe Traditional Media has a fine line to walk...
(#101457)...youtube exists now, and they can only lie so much. I think they're gonna mess up and destroy their credibility permanently.
It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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parentI would question
(#101484)given the number of line faults to date, if they are all that aware or respectful of where the line is.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentSo I guess that...
(#101387)...in the Cloud Cuckoo Land that McCainiacs inhabit, "solidly consistant" = "cynical sellout".
Got it.
Me: We! -- Ali
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parent