China: High-balling the economics and low-balling the emissions

Bird Dog's picture

It's a little nuts to divine economic growth by looking at unburnt inventories of excess coal, but that is the Chinese system:

As the Chinese economy continues to sputter, prominent corporate executives in China and Western economists say there is evidence that local and provincial officials are falsifying economic statistics to disguise the true depth of the troubles.

Record-setting mountains of excess coal have accumulated at the country’s biggest storage areas because power plants are burning less coal in the face of tumbling electricity demand. But local and provincial government officials have forced plant managers not to report to Beijing the full extent of the slowdown, power sector executives said.

Electricity production and consumption have been considered a telltale sign of a wide variety of economic activity. They are widely viewed by foreign investors and even some Chinese officials as the gold standard for measuring what is really happening in the country’s economy, because the gathering and reporting of data in China is not considered as reliable as it is in many countries.

Another measure is excess real estate inventory.

All that being said, I’m seeing some rather striking patterns in the data that tell us two main things:

  1. The market is not poised to recover, but will continue to see greater downward pressure on prices; and
  2. Real estate investment is likely to flatten out or start falling, erasing several percentage points of GDP growth.

[...]

So if sales were down, and starts were either flat or down, where was the 23.5% investment growth coming from?  Developers, burdened by 70% leverage ratios and loans threatening to come due, were rushing to complete whatever projects were already in their pipeline, in order to put those units onto the market and raise cash.  Completions (measured in floor space) were up 39.3% in Q1, compared to last year (residential completions were similarly up 40.0%).  But, of course, those completed units weren’t selling like last year, so unsold inventories expanded.  At the close of Q1, the total amount of floor space “for sale” was up 35.5%, compared to the same date last year, while the floor space of residential units “for sale” grew 47.4%.

Smells like a real estate bubble, and the chart at the end of the article paints an interesting picture. At Forbes, saying that the bubble is deflating implies that one exists. But given the combination of reduced demand, lowering prices, increasing vacancy rates and new completions, I think they're understating the problem, especially since their real estate sector is such a major component of GDP growth.

Speaking of the sketchy reporting of statistics, it isn't limited to just the economy.

FOR those who live in China and are forced to breathe in its air every morning, the findings of a recent report may come as no surprise, but to climate analysts it will make for uncomfortable reading. According to a new paper published in the journal Nature Climate Change, China may be under-reporting its annual carbon emissions by as much as 1.4 billion tonnes a year—roughly the amount that Japan, the world’s fourth-largest emitter of carbon dioxide (CO2), pumps out each year.

China is the world’s largest CO2 emitter and produces around a quarter of global carbon emissions. But according to the new study, which used more than a decade of official Chinese data, China’s carbon emissions could be 20% higher than previously thought. It says the emission discrepancy in 2010 is equivalent to about 5% of the total global output (in 2008).

Funny that the title said "warmed-up" instead of cooked.

While China's CO2 emissions have shown steady growth, ours have fallen.

Back in February I posted about a surprising development: Despite the failure of comprehensive climate and energy legislation in 2010, U.S. carbon pollution emissions and projections of future carbon pollution have been coming down ever since. A new forecast out this week continues that trend.

 

While there has been some press coverage of these facts (see here and here) I continue to find that most people are surprised to learn about this progress.

Lashof outlines some of the reasons for the reduction here. Meade's take is more...uh, acerbic. What this should tell us is that significant progress can be made via conservation and efficiencies (and replacing coal-generated electricity with practically anything else also helps).

UPDATE 1: More signs of economic slowdown in China here.

UPDATE 2: Following up on a previous diary, British Columbia has fine-tuned its carbon tax and it's working quite well.

ON Sunday, the best climate policy in the world got even better: British Columbia’s carbon tax — a tax on the carbon content of all fossil fuels burned in the province — increased from $25 to $30 per metric ton of carbon dioxide, making it more expensive to pollute.

This was good news not only for the environment but for nearly everyone who pays taxes in British Columbia, because the carbon tax is used to reduce taxes for individuals and businesses. Thanks to this tax swap, British Columbia has lowered its corporate income tax rate to 10 percent from 12 percent, a rate that is among the lowest in the Group of 8 wealthy nations. Personal income taxes for people earning less than $119,000 per year are now the lowest in Canada, and there are targeted rebates for low-income and rural households.

[...]

Let’s start with the economics. Substituting a carbon tax for some of our current taxes — on payroll, on investment, on businesses and on workers — is a no-brainer. Why tax good things when you can tax bad things, like emissions? The idea has support from economists across the political spectrum, from Arthur B. Laffer and N. Gregory Mankiw on the right to Peter Orszag and Joseph E. Stiglitz on the left. That’s because economists know that a carbon tax swap can reduce the economic drag created by our current tax system and increase long-run growth by nudging the economy away from consumption and borrowing and toward saving and investment.

 

Of course, carbon taxes also lower carbon emissions. Economic theory suggests that putting a price on pollution reduces emissions more affordably and more effectively than any other measure. This conclusion is supported by empirical evidence from previous market-based policies, like those in the 1990 amendments to the Clean Air Act that targeted sulfur dioxide emissions. British Columbia’s carbon tax is only four years old, but preliminary data show that greenhouse gas emissions are down 4.5 percent even as population and gross domestic product have been growing. Sales of motor gasoline have fallen by 2 percent since 2007, compared with a 5 percent increase for Canada as a whole.

What would a British Columbia-style carbon tax look like in the United States? According to our calculations, a British Columbia-style $30 carbon tax would generate about $145 billion a year in the United States. That could be used to reduce individual and corporate income taxes by 10 percent, and afterward there would still be $35 billion left over.

This is the kind of tax that conservatives should embrace because they're consumption taxes, or use taxes. If your machine doesn't exhale CO2, you're not penalized (h/t Adler).

 

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How you manage to confuse yourself to this extent is beyond me.

(#283363)

While China's CO2 emissions have shown steady growth, ours have fallen.

 

You don't seem to understand what you are reading. "Ours" (I assume you mean that of the USA) has not fallen: Here is the latest data from the EPA, an American regulatory body concerned with the environment:

 

The key findings of the 1990-2010 US Inventory include:

    In 2010, U.S. greenhouse gas emissions totaled 6,821.8 million metric tons CO2 Eq.
    U.S. emissions rose by 3.2% from 2009 to 2010. This increase was primarily due to an increase in economic output resulting in an increase in energy consumption across all sectors and much warmer summer conditions resulting in an increase in electricity demand for air conditioning.
    Since 1990, U.S. greenhouse gas emissions have increased by 10.5%.

 

A 3.2% increase from the last period, and a 10.5% increase from 1990 is not falling. It is rising. And if the Chinese economy is indeed shrinking, then it is a good bet that emission of greenhouse gases there is diminishing. How you manage to confuse yourself to this extent is beyond me.

Also this talk of US emissions and Chinese emissions is not helpful. It seems to foster a childish sense of competition in people such as yourself and misses the fact that the economy we live in is global: that the emissions in China are due in part to American demand for consumer products once manufactured in America, now offshored to China.

 

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Yup

(#283365)
HankP's picture

the forecasts for the future have come down.

 

The main reason there was a small drop in emissions were due to two factors: the recession, and the low price of natural gas. But the economy will recover at some point, and the price of gas will rise (estimates are that gas is now selling below extraction cost).

I blame it all on the Internet

Yep, fallen

(#283371)
Bird Dog's picture

Since 2005 or thereabouts. The "fallen" link has been fixed, and it points to this graph from EIA via NRDC.

So I guess in LeftWingWorld, it's okay to insult via impugning and telling others that they don't comprehend your brilliance, but by golly, don't dare engage in name-calling (even though the fringe moniker is fairly accurate in American politics) because that crosses a line! So, thanks for clearing that up.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Emissions in the USA have never been higher

(#283434)

Read my comment again. I quote from the webpage of the EPA, the American agency responsible for the enforcement of environmental regulations. It is here:

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/usinventoryreport.html

 

It's not some dubious advocacy group. If you think the EPA is cooking their statistics, like the Chinese, only inflating them for some reason, I'm ready to listen.

Otherwise my point stands. Emissions in the USA have never been higher, and those from China are lower if they are in recession. It shouldn't take a left wing extreme genius to point this out to you.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Table 2-3

(#283440)
Bird Dog's picture

Tracks with the graph in my link. The difference is that my link is more up-to-date. The EIA isn't some "dubious advocacy group", dumbass.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Two different things, two different numbers

(#283443)

It's not that your figures are newer. They are measuring different things. The EPA refers to emissions of greenhouse gases, while the EIA refers to 'energy related CO2.' Two different things, two different numbers. What the exactly is different, I couldn't tell you. The Chinese numbers refer to something else again.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Nope, it's all CO2

(#283445)
Bird Dog's picture

That was the denominator I used for China, and it's the denominator I used for the U.S. The problem is that your EPA source stops at 2010. I mentioned Table 2-3 under "Trends in Greenhouse Gas Emissions" in your link for a reason because it measured annual CO2 output. I used the EIA figures, which goes through the first three months of 2012, which are no less valid than EPA. Through 2010, the numbers differ somewhat in quantity between the two sources (the difference is less than 2%) but the trendlines are virtually identical, as are "net emissions". Extrapolating the first three months of 2012, we're on pace for emissions at 5,360 MMTs, which is lowest seen since 1995 (link).

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

misleading or laughably idiotic. I'm not sure which

(#283453)

CO2 is not the only greenhouse gas. Others include methane and nitrous oxide which made up about 10% of greenhouse emissions. Your AEI figure give the emission (of CO2) of 2010 as 5,700, and the EPA gives 6,800 (of greenhouse gases) for the same period. They are measuring two different things.

And to extrapolate emissions from the first 3 months of this year until the year end and using this figure to claim that emissions have already fallen is misleading or laughably idiotic. I'm not sure which. These first three months were about the warmest winter on record - people were on the beaches of Nova Scotia swimming in March. And at the moment I read on google of a record heat wave that eastern USA is undergoing. A warm winter means less energy consumption (less emissions) and a hot summer means greater energy consumption (more emissions). Extrapolate that!!!

I stand by the objection that motivated me to comment here. A recession in China will likely decrease emissions there, and emissions of greenhouse gases in America are higher.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Duh

(#283473)
Bird Dog's picture

The diary was clearly talking about CO2. So were my links. Why you want to include other GHGs, just to be ornery and contrary it seems, is not the topic.

As for the extrapolations, the data helpfully showed the first three months of the two prior years. Going by the trends in the two prior years, 5,360 MMTs is too high of an estimate for 2012.

As for China, I didn't say anything about whether the economy was growing or reversing. My point is that their growth estimates are overstated. In short, slowing but still growing. In that situation, it is perfectly logical that China can have slower growth in real GDP and increasing amounts of CO2 emissions.

Seriously, dude, I don't know why you're so pigheaded about this.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

If you have

(#283542)

If you have the EPA stating that greenhouse gas emissions are at record levels, and your 'environmental advocate' trumpeting a fall in CO2 emissions, I'd say we have a problem. It's called cherry picking the data. I don't know what his game is; I'd never heard of his outfit, but I think you've been duped into accepting a false picture of the situation. I would have a lot more respect for the your source if only he had pointed out something along the lines of the EPA summary I quoted earlier.

The less said of your extrapolations, the better.

 

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Still out of date

(#283600)
Bird Dog's picture

And a question: When did the Energy Information Administration become an "environmental advocate"?

That you've never heard of the EIA or the NRDC is not my concern. I'm not responsible for your own ignorance.

As for "cherry-picking", lame. I cherry-picked nothing, especially since I linked to data showing every year of CO2 emissions for that last decade.

 

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Dan Lashof is the environmental advovate

(#283601)

Dan Lashof is the environmental advovate. The AEI is a governmental organ. You have to be careful about these groups that take in millions of dollars in donations... The EPA has stated that greenhouse emissions are at record levels. The news is calamitous all round and you offer us a story to favorably portray USA in contrast with China. I'm not American and I'm not Chinese, but I know both countries fairly well, better than most in fact. Your efforts to compare and contrast the two struck me as childish and beside the point.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Huh

(#283604)
Bird Dog's picture

So why would an environmental advocacy group such as NRDC lowball CO2? Your reasoning makes no sense. What you're doing is lambasting the messenger because you don't know them or never heard of them while ignoring the underlying facts from a legitimate department within the U.S. government.

As for what the EPA said, I think you're confusing global levels with U.S. levels. The facts through March 2012 speak for themselves. That you're resistant to facts is not my concern.

BTW, the AEI is American Enterprise Institute, at least around these parts. The EIA is something else.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Why would the NRDC want

(#283713)

Why would the NRDC want ignore the dire information published by the EPA? A good question, and could have any number of answers, but in truth I really don't care. I only urge others to consider carefully what they say, and of course even more, what they don't say.
I don't know what you're driving at with the huffington piece. Their information is from the UN, and the EPA is not even mentioned. At least twice already in this thread I've referred to the latest info from the EPA which refers specifically to US emissions and never to the UN. I'm not the one who's confused here. I think you should take a minute or so, follow the links and see for yourself.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Once again

(#283788)
Bird Dog's picture

The EIA numbers are less than 2% different from the EPA numbers, and the trends are virtually identical. The difference is that the information you're relying on is out-of-date while the information you're ignoring--information that is every bit as legitimate as EPA--is not. This is a typical case of confirmation bias. You're hearing what you want to hear and blocking out information that fails to align with your belief system.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

No need to be snarky. It is very good that US emissions

(#283406)
mmghosh's picture

will be held below 2005 levels until at least 2035, according to rational projections.  And it could even be better.

Proposed light-duty vehicles (LDV) fuel economy standards covering vehicle MY 2017 through 2025, which are not included in the Reference case, could further reduce demand for petroleum and other liquids

Whether it is because of outsourcing of emissions to China is hardly the point.  

 

No one has forced the Chinese, apart from their own Communist leadership, to make stuff for international consumers.  They saw an economic advantage for the people of China, overall, in doing so.  Environmental degradation, such as has happened, is the leadership's responsibility entirely.

idle political posturing.

(#283436)

Will fall refers to the future. Have fallen is about the present. Two different beasts.

If emissions fall in the future, that's a good thing.

If international consumers are against the Chinese polluting the atmosphere they can stop paying for it. Blaming the Chinese leadership may make your feel better, but it's not going to clean up the atmosphere. It's idle political posturing.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Share the blame around, my friend, not just the love

(#283464)
mmghosh's picture

"international consumers" means all of us.  And there are specific things that all of us can do, wherever we live.  

 

Over here, with our per capita emissions a tiny fraction of the West, our problem is our numbers.  So our imperative is to reduce numbers - which we have done pretty successfully, and we have also paid a huge price for this with the social fallout of adverse sex ratios.

 

In the West, the effort must be to reduce per capita emissions, principally by reducing consumption.  While the recession has proved effective is at least slowing down consumption, there are plenty of siren voices (in this forvm too) clamouring for increasing spending by governments and thereby consumption.  The consequent small increase in unemployment is the small (and buffered by social services) price that Western societies have paid.

 

OTOH, rational individuals all over the world must continue to hope that consumption in the West falls, and that, precipitously, over the next 50 years, if the planet is not to warm by another 3 degrees.

 

The Chinese are a different story to both - halfway house as they are.  It is in their power to slow down their manufacturing of Western consumer goods.

Interesting...

(#283465)

It is in their power to slow down their manufacturing of Western consumer goods.

 

Debatable in practice, but lets say it's true. How could they do that? One answer, make better stuff that lasts longer and costs more. Tools, for example. Chinese-made nearly always means junk good for a couple of uses. Toys, another one. Made for landfills they are.

 

Tell the Chinese to sell all they can, but refuse to make more garbage. That would really help.

 

The thing is, there is a huge market for cheap junk, and not especially in the developed world, but everywhere. Our species simply does not understand that the cost of cheap is environmental degradation. Google just came out with a USD 200 tablet. People think that's a good thing, a competitive thing. How long will those last?

 

I've seen the lives of "durable" goods become shorter and shorter through my life. Cars are lasting longer, but electronics are nearly disposable. Why? I have electronics from the 1980's that still work, but computers fall apart after 36 months. If somebody would have told me in 1980 that they replace their phone every year, I would have thought they were nuts. One guy at a company I worked at, a sales guy, destroyed eight cell phones in three months, because he really wanted a better model, and he ended up getting it...

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Reducing consumption

(#283545)

Reducing consumption means a fundamental economic reordering, as far as I can see. Who is going to invest in a company that promises investors that it will produce less next year? Perhaps, some scientific or technological breakthrough or monumental act of will on the part of the leadership (To protect his image, Obama declined to go to the Rio climate summit in an election year.) will pull our chestnuts from the fire, but barring that I don't see simply reducing consumption as the answer.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

You keep saying this

(#283549)
HankP's picture

but it's not true. Shareholders and investors don't care about production levels, they care about profitability. As long as the financials of a company show growth they don't care whether production goes up or down.

I blame it all on the Internet

Toyota motor company followed your prescription

(#283554)

I understand your point but in practice, I'm not sure. Toyota motor company followed your prescription in response to Reagan's protectionist policies. They sold fewer cars (they had no choice) but made more money because of their higher value. So in principle what you say is correct. But since those days Toyota has become the number one manufacturer of autos in the world according to units of production, and the business press unanimously applauds increased sales figures for Toyota or any other car maker. Your 'less is more' strategy is only something to be taken up reluctantly, under pressure. Otherwise, it's the default - a matter of knuckling under to the grow or die imperative.
I remember a few years ago, out of curiosity, looking up the future plans for various cities, and found not a single one of them planned to shrink in physical or population size. They also had to answer to this growth imperative, to expand their tax revenue, I assume. Not all cities can meet these projections, but the ideal is to grow.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Nothing nuts about the process

(#283432)
HankP's picture

economists measure inputs all the time. If you listen to business news, you'll hear about various inventory reports every month as a way of understanding what's going on in the economy.

I blame it all on the Internet

The difference is that...

(#283441)
Bird Dog's picture

...GDP is something that can relied upon (in places not named China) and inventory reports are normally supplemental, not a key measure.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

It depends

(#283450)
HankP's picture

if you can't measure outputs, you measure inputs. BTW, GDP isn't that reliable anywhere, that's why it's revised frequently.

I blame it all on the Internet