The curious case of the Elbayomy acquittal

Bird Dog's picture

The facts seem pretty clear-cut. Under the banner of the Parading Atheists of Central Pennsylvania, Ernest Perce dressed up as Zombie Muhamed and exercised his inalienable right to assemble and speak freely while participating in a Halloween parade in Mechanicsburg, PA. Unfortunately, those rights were infringed when Mr. Elbayomy came out of the crowd and tried yank off his sign and fake beard. The video:

 

 

Even though the cop near the scene heard Mr. Elbayomy corroborate what took place (after all, the attacker mistakenly believed that it was a crime in America to insult Islam and its prophet), the judge not only threw out the case, but admonished Mr. Perce.

Before you start mocking someone else’s religion you may want to find out a little bit more about it. That makes you look like a doofus.

And Mr. Thomas [Elbayomi's defense lawyer] is correct. In many other Muslim speaking countries – excuse me, in many Arabic speaking countries – call it “Muslim” – something like this is definitely against the law there. In their society, in fact, it could be punishable by death, and it frequently is, in their society.

Here in our society, we have a constitution that gives us many rights, specifically, First Amendment rights. It’s unfortunate that some people use the First Amendment to deliberately provoke others. I don’t think that’s what our forefathers really intended. I think our forefathers intended that we use the First Amendment so that we can speak our mind, not to piss off other people and other cultures, which is what you did.

I don’t think you’re aware, sir, there’s a big difference between how Americans practice Christianity – uh, I understand you’re an atheist. But, see, Islam is not just a religion, it’s their culture, their culture. It’s their very essence, their very being. They pray five times a day towards Mecca. To be a good Muslim, before you die, you have to make a pilgrimage to Mecca unless you are otherwise told you cannot because you are too ill, too elderly, whatever. But you must make the attempt.

Their greetings, “Salaam alaikum,” “Alaikum wa-salaam,” “May God be with you.” Whenever — it is very common — their language, when they’re speaking to each other, it’s very common for them to say, uh, “Allah willing, this will happen.” It is — they are so immersed in it.

Then what you have done is you’ve completely trashed their essence, their being. They find it very, very, very offensive. I’m a Muslim, I find it offensive. F’Im a Muslim, I’d find it offensive. [Unintelligble] aside was very offensive.

But you have that right, but you’re way outside your bounds on First Amendment rights.

The only thing I see that is outside the bounds is the judge's admonishment and his strange understanding of the First Amendment. Apparently, it's OK to speak your mind, just don't piss anybody off. Incredible. And here I was thinking that the First Amendment protected speech, even speech that others found offensive. Jon Turley:

I fail to see the relevance of the victim’s attitude toward Muslims or religion generally. He had a protected right to walk in the parade and not be assaulted for his views. While the judge laments that “[i]t’s unfortunate that some people use the First Amendment to deliberately provoke others,” that is precisely what the Framers had in mind if Thomas Paine is any measure.

Notably, reports indicate that Elbayomy called police because he thought it was a crime to be disrespectful to Muhammed. The judge appears to reference this by noting that in some countries you can be put to death for such an offense. Those countries are called oppressive countries. This is a free country where it is not a crime to insult someone’s religion — despite a counter-trend in some Western countries.

I also do not see how the judge believes that he has the authority to tell a religious critic that “before you start mocking somebody else’s religion, you might want to find out a little more about it.” Let alone call a person a “doofus” because he opposes religion.

To make matters worse, the judge is reportedly threatening Perce with contempt for posting the audio of the hearing.

The reference to the cultural motivations for assaulting Perce seems to raise a type of cultural defense. I have spent years discussing this issue with state and federal judges on the proper role of culture in criminal and civil cases. This is not a case where I would view that defense as properly raised. There are certainly constitutional (and yes cultural) norms that must be accepted when joining this Republic. One is a commitment to free speech. If culture could trump free speech, the country would become the amalgamation of all extrinsic cultures — protecting no one by protecting everyone’s impulses. Those countries referenced by the court took a different path — a path away from civil liberties and toward religious orthodoxy. It is a poor example to raise except as an example of what we are not. The fact that this man may have formed his views in such an oppressive environment does not excuse his forcing others to adhere to his religious sentiments.

Martin’s comments also heighten concerns over the growing trend toward criminalizing anti-religious speech in the use of such standards as the Brandenburg test, a position supported by the Obama Administration.

There are legitimate uses of the culture defense. However, when it comes to free speech, that is not just our controlling constitutional right but the touchstone of our culture.

I can understand the judge’s claims of conflicting testimony on the crime –though it seems to be that the officer’s testimony and the tape would resolve those doubts. However, I view this as an extremely troubling case that raises serious questions of judicial temperament, if not misconduct.

Exactly. Volokh has more here, including the judge's side of the story. However, the judge's version does not negate the stupidity of his decision.

 

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The judge's decision sounds perfectly in line

(#275454)

with the concept of "beyond a reasonable doubt" -- he had no convincing evidence that any assault occurred, merely a he said-he said story. It's not a "stupid" decision to follow the law. There's nothing even particularly eyebrow-raising about the acquittal.

 

All that leaves is the question of judicial temperament, and while I don't agree with everything in his harangue, this is exactly the kind of thing JOPs and circuit judges around the country say to defendants & plaintiffs who they view as causing trouble or headed for more trouble in their communities.

 

In short: the law doesn't say Ernest Perce can't act like an a-hole, but many court judges would feel more than free, obligated even, to do just that. 

 

Finally, if Ernest Perce had been dressed up as "Piss Christ" only to be accosted by some irate Christian, we wouldn't be hearing about this story.

M Aurelius was probably right.

The volokh conspiracy covers a lot of 1st amend. related news

(#275456)

that's where I heard of this case and I don't think that was b/c it was about Islam rather than Christianity.

Thanks, I know what

(#275458)

the Volokh conspiracy covers.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I haven't seen it discussed elsewhere

(#275461)

So I didn't know who exactly you have in mind that is talking about this solely b/c it concerns Islam.

The Wurlitzer was all over it on Friday. -nt-

(#275465)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

tell me that's not where you've been lately!

(#275467)

.

The Wurlitzer is *everywhere*..... -nt-

(#275468)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Except...

(#275459)
Bird Dog's picture

...Elbayomy corroborated Perce's account with the police officer. The judge's mind was made up.

As your casual excuse of the judge's interpretation of the First Amendment, I'll just say that I find it curious.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

"Tried to grab a sign"

(#275463)

isn't much evidence of anything, certainly not "criminal harassment." I'd say the judge's interp. of the First Amendment sounds off, but then this isn't even remotely a first amendment case, it's a question of convicting a man of a crime just short of assault based on what sounds to any thinking person like a case of tempers flaring in a public place.

 

Convicting based on no injuries, no damage to property, no witnesses...unless there's more to the case the judge quite obviously made the correct decision on the merits of the actual case.

M Aurelius was probably right.

And there's the test

(#275499)
Bird Dog's picture

If it passes the obnoxious threshhold, and as long as a person doesn't get hurt or have his property actually taken, by all means, infringe away on the guy's constitutional right to freely express himself. The Jordan precedent has been set.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Er, there was no infringing.

(#275511)

Apparently there was some kind of shouting and scuffling, a confrontation evidently so violent and disturbing that there were exactly zero witnesses even though the events occurred at a parade. Based on these facts, you want one of the parties involved to be convicted of misdemeanor assault. Is that the going punishment for a private citizen infringing the free speech rights of another citizen?

M Aurelius was probably right.

The judge still sounds like a doofus though.

(#275544)

He should be forced to give all his future dissertations from the bench on the rights and duties of man in "Muslim".

I'd like to think I could come up with a more cogent harangue

(#275550)

in the same situation...but I'd have to say if I were a minor court judge and had a guy brought before me who had obnoxiously & publicly defiled a religious taboo of a small minority population in my district, I'd give the guy a talking to as well. The right to free expression gives you the right to act like a complete jerk; but it also gives peace officers the right to tell you you're acting like a complete jerk.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I think you'd manage, somehow,

(#275716)

to avoid inventing a langauge called "muslim" and rambling on about how a minor assault would have been no big deal because in some countries he'd be executed for blasphemy.


 


This whole story makes we want to take a shower. One idiot who want's to provoke a fight for no good reason, another who can't keep his religious ideas in proportion and a judge who needs a few semesters at the Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Do Other Stuff Good Too

Well the judge made a correct decision

(#275717)

as to the actual merits of the case - the charges were harassment; with no witnesses, no physical evidence and just a he said/he said story from the plaintiff and defendant, he determined that the evidence could not support the charges beyond a reasonable doubt. A reasonable person would conclude that the plaintiff's version of events might be inaccurate, and without any corroborating evidence, that is not enough to convict someone of a criminal charge in US courts.

 

So the guy knows his job well enough. I won't be attending his seminar on constitutional law, though.

M Aurelius was probably right.

It's an interesting POV

(#275720)
aireachail's picture

that pronounces that one of the actors

 

can't keep his religious ideas in proportion

 

One of the more intriquing aspects of this discussion is the emphasis on the "First Amendment Rights" of the guy who as you properly observe, wanted to provoke a fight for no good reason over those of the guy who reacted.

 

Why intriguing? Because both parties have precisely the same rights to free speech/free expression. And that's why First Amendment considerations aren't applicable in conflicts between private citizens.

 

 

Yes,

(#275721)

and assuming there was no assault, and it seems there wasn't anythng that approached assault, they were both exercising their right to express themselves. I don't think much of either of them for it is all I'm saying. 


 


I can remember seing a bunch of students getting pretty badly beaten outside a church for filming on a sunday. I was a kid & it made a big impression on me.


 


The judge came to the right decision (much better than a lock up the crazy muslim terrorist that our protagonist no 1 was hoping for). Pity he couldn't keep his remarks to "case dismissed" or something similar.

This was Mechanicsville, not Macy's

(#275561)
Bird Dog's picture

BTW, the judge was more inclined to arrest the protester for having the audacity to walk in front of a Muslim in Muhamed garb. Like I said, mind made up.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

I missed that part of the transcript.

(#275568)

I see where the judge threatens to hold the guy in contempt if he releases recordings of the trial. Could you point out where he says he'd like to arrest the plaintiff for anything else?

M Aurelius was probably right.

"It was right on the edge of ethnic intimidation"

(#275573)
Bird Dog's picture

The judge's words. The judge also likened Perce's acts to a KKK member wearing the white robes in a public march. Surprising that none of the many atheists here are perturbed that a judge made no distinction between a marching atheist and a marching racist. I guess they're pretty much the same animal.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

"Ethnic intimidation"...is that a crime?

(#275599)

Does it sound like the judge is "inclined to arrest" the plaintiff for "ethnic intimidation" to you? Wearing white sheets and promoting racism isn't illegal; judge seems well aware of that, but that isn't what you suggested previously.

M Aurelius was probably right.

As a matter of fact,

(#275605)
Bird Dog's picture

yes. The point is that the judge judged that Perce was more the offender than the other guy.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Ok, so he was referring to a specific offense.

(#275619)

This case wouldn't seem to fit the statute, however, which looks like PA's version of a "hate crimes" statute...that is, it's a criminal intent component that gets added on to other criminal charges and elevates their statutory level. There needs to be a crime first, then "Ethnic Intimidation" gets added to it to elevate the charges & potential penalty.

The point is that the judge judged that Perce was more the offender than the other guy.

And he's 100% right.

 

If the harassment charge had been substantiated, the judge would have been wrong. The harassment charge was not substantiated. Therefore the judge is right...Elbayomy is an innocent man, whereas Perce is a rabble rouser trying to use his courtroom to stage a PR stunt in pursuit of an anti-Muslim agenda.

 

M Aurelius was probably right.

No, he's not right

(#276007)
Bird Dog's picture

He was pandering to a Muslim's religious sensitivity. Christians endure the insulting of their religion all the time and they're trained to turn the other cheek instead of assault the insulter. That is the American way.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

No witnesses other than the guy that tried to break court rules

(#276040)
brutusettu's picture

Some people might be aware that atheist can lie too and really hate all of Islam enough to due just that.

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

Tangential

(#276053)
Bird Dog's picture

Or, in other words, not germane.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Out of the people that saw what happened

(#276057)
brutusettu's picture

Weren't there just 2, the Zombie and the defendant?
Didn't the Zombie try to record what was going on in the court and have sole access to the master copy?
The judge was lecturing the guy that was previously trying to surreptitiously record court proceedings, the judge was possibly thinking it's not good for a guy going around trying to piss people off. The guy goes go around trying to do things he thinks might piss "religionist" off.

"only Muhammed can rape America"

[quote]Christians endure the insulting of their religion all the time and they're trained to turn the other cheek instead of assault the insulter[/quote]

A pic of "Jesus *ucking Christ" might have ticked of a Christian. about 2:17 in, about 2:24 in for the NSFW money screenshot

(all of the "assault" was out of frame)

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

The judge threatened contempt,

(#276062)
Bird Dog's picture

which was tangential to his lecture to the plaintiff. Really, the audacity of a person recording a court proceeding. How gauche, and how offensive to liberal sensitivities.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Indeed

(#276063)
M Scott Eiland's picture

I wonder if liberals are going to start defending cops who threaten people who videotape traffic stops; after all, *those* could theoretically be modified as the judge claimed was the reason for not allowing courtroom recordings.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

The guy already edits other tapes he puts on YT

(#276074)
brutusettu's picture

He claims to have maced a dude after showing off a picture "Jesus **cking Christ," he has held up a picture of Jesus giving the bird to other drivers that had Christian themed bumper stickers.

touche on the recording though.

And now I'm waiting for a comment anytime about police beating up someone that was clearly not "resisting arrest" or creating their own exigent circumstances to break into a house/apartment, with the excuse that, "but cops have a tough job, sometimes working long overtimes, and if they screw up once..." :p

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

None of which has anything to do

(#276044)

with this case or with the American legal system in general. I gather that you disapprove of an American judge speaking in defense of Muslim beliefs and sensibilities. Write your congressperson, maybe you can get an amendment passed.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Eh

(#276054)
Bird Dog's picture

There was more than one point in this diary, one of them being the judge's dressing down the plaintiff, unjustifiably so. 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

ALmost nobody says "eh" in real life

(#276055)

I think that's why I don't like to read it. 

Canadians do nt

(#276056)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

Which really only supports Catchy's point.

(#276060)

nt

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Turn the other cheek?

(#276058)
mmghosh's picture

Heh. [url=http://www.archive.org/stream/moderntraveller00belluoft#page/40/mode/2up]The Modern Traveller[/url] [quote]
In getting up our Caravan
We met a most obliging man,
The Lord Chief Justice of Liberia,
And Minister of the Interior ;
Cain Abolition Beecher Boz,
Worked like a Nigger -which he was-
And in a single day
Procured us Porters, Guides, and kit,
And would not take a sou for it
Until we went away.*

* But when we went away, we found
A deficit of several pound.
---
We wondered how this fellow made
Himself so readily obeyed,
And why the natives were so meek ;
Until by chance we heard him speak,
And then we clearly understood
How great a Power for Social Good
The African can be.
He said with a determined air :
" You are not what your fathers were ;
Liberians, you are Free !
Of course, if you refuse to go "
And here he made a gesture - so.

He also gave us good advice
Concerning Labour and its Price.
" In dealing wid de Native Scum,
Yo' cannot pick an' choose ;
Yo' hab to promise um a sum
Ob wages, paid in Cloth and Rum.
But, Lordy ! that's a ruse !
Yo' get yo' well on de Adventure,
And change de wages to Indenture."

---
We did the thing that he projected,
The Caravan grew disaffected,
And Sin and I consulted ;
Blood understood the Native mind.
He said : " We must be firm but kind."
A Mutiny resulted.
I never shall forget the way
That Blood upon this awful day
Preserved us all from death.
He stood upon a little mound,
Cast his lethargic eyes around,
And said beneath his breath :
Whatever happens we have got
The Maxim Gun, and they have not."

---
He marked them in their rude advance,
He hushed their rebel cheers ;
With one extremely vulgar glance
He broke the Mutineers.
(I have a picture in my book
Of how he quelled them with a look.)
We shot and hanged a few, and then
The rest became devoted men.[/quote]

Maybe the judge was thinking of this

(#275486)
HankP's picture

Fighting words

 

incorrectly, in my view. Even if there was no case, the guy wearing the outfit is not the one who he should have ragged on.

I blame it all on the Internet

There was no evidence to convict.

(#275551)

This was a misdemeanor assault case, and there were no witnesses, no injuries and no property damage entered in evidence...the rest is just a JOP lecturing a man he saw (correctly) as an a-hole and a public nuisance. I don't know if he lectured the alleged attacker as well, but it would be difficult to do so if there were no evidence that the man had actually done anything wrong.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Oh come on

(#275560)
HankP's picture

just because there wasn't evidence of assault doesn't mean you lecture the plaintiff unless there's evidence that he made it up. If a woman accused a guy of rape and the guy was let go for lack of evidence, would it be OK for the judge to lecture the woman on how short her skirt was?

I blame it all on the Internet

Definitely not, but not a very good analogy.

(#275566)

The plaintiff in this case has all but admitted that he's a provocateur, and it should be obvious that he went to a parade as Zombie Mohammed in hopes of getting a rise out of someone, and further that he's pressing charges in court (based on no evidence) in order to further provoke and inflame and popularize a story. Judges tend to get annoyed when people try to turn their courtrooms into PR vehicles, and the guy has himself volunteered into evidence a pretty clear indication that that is his intent.

 

Now, yadda yadda Civil Disobedience yadda yadda, the guy's an obnoxious jerk. The Islamonuts like Pam Geller have been salivating for a Horst Wessel style case that'll let them put Islam itself on trial as basically a global 2 billion member-strong terrorist organization, and this guy is just one small entrepreneur in that venture. Who knows? Maybe they'll get what they want. But if I were a JP in a small town, I'd try to clamp down on that crap just like this judge did. Let them start their crusade somewhere else.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Jordan, you surprising man

(#275792)

"...if Ernest Perce had been dressed up as 'Piss Christ' only to be accosted by some irate Christian, we wouldn't be hearing about this story..."


 


Can you possibly believe what you're saying? Can you possibly believe that such an interesting & improbable event would be met with anything other than "flood-the-zone" media coverage?


 


Surely you can't possibly really believe that. Surely not. Surely not really.


 

 

.

Divine Spinoza, forgive me. I have become a fool.

1st Amendment issue?

(#275466)
aireachail's picture

How so, exactly? I mean, aside from the judge's rather odd mentioning of "free speech"?

 

One has a right not to be assaulted, period. But Perce was fully exercising his rights insofar as free speech/free expression are concerned. He was in a parade. No authority was trampling upon his rights.

In lecturing a guy who dressed up as

(#275470)

"Zombie Mohammed" to march in a small-town parade, an elected member of Pennsylvania's minor judiciary apparently mischaracterized the first amendment.

M Aurelius was probably right.

An odd connection, to say the least.

(#275471)
aireachail's picture

The diary starts off by suggesting that Perce's free speech rights

 

were infringed when Mr. Elbayomy came out of the crowd and tried yank off his sign and fake beard

 

Unless Mr. Elbayomy was acting as anything other than a private citizen, there's just no 1st Amendment issue at all.

 

Perhaps that odd "lecturing" somehow infriged...retroactively, yet...on Perce's rights?

 

Now that would be a case to watch!

 

 

The regular guy in me has to

(#275473)

The regular guy in me has to wonder wtf judges are thinking when they take these marvelous flight of fancy and give freeform lectures like this.  The physician in me sees how people in power assume that their opinions, no matter how removed from their sphere of knowledge, are important and must be imparted on those around them.  I don't know about Ohio, but in Texas a judge is just a minor-league politician.  They can keep their wild theories to themselves.

Similar in Pennsylvania apparently.

(#275475)

The thing is, to cut the guy some slack, his job is to adjudicate minor infractions & city ordinances...not the level of stuff that even goes before a trial judge in the state. This guy sees his main job, quite rightly, as keeping the peace. The lecture appears to be an example of just that.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Isn't Pennsylvania a county

(#275476)

Isn't Pennsylvania a county outside Dayton?  Sorry, I'm post-call so prone to errors of geography.

Sorry maybe you're right.

(#275477)

I'm not sure whether it's Ohio or PA.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Pennsylvania I think.  The

(#275483)

Pennsylvania I think.  The fatal school shooting today was in Ohio.  America had gone 11 months without a fatal high school shooting.  Remember the innocent years before Columbine?

Pennsylvania / Dayton? Slanderer.

(#275478)

When the very very very very very very very best people in Dayton are about to die, they are permitted to look at an old phonebook cover of Pittsburgh.  When the very very very very very very best people in Pittsburgh are about to die they are permitted to look at a black and white photo of anywhere else in Pennsylvania.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

You're a man of eminent good sense, Darth.

(#275485)

I don't care what catchy says about you.

A man must be orthodox upon most things, or he will never even have time to preach his own heresy.

 

Thanks, I was worried I may have

(#275487)

given Pittsburgh more credit than it deserves wrt the rest of Pennsylvania.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Ever hear that joke about Pennsylvania?

(#275488)

That it's two New Yorks with a Kentucky in the middle?  (Minus, I guess, the bourbon.  And providing a locale for the best show on TV.)  I told that to someone, and his response was, "More like one New York and a Newark."

 

Zing.

A man must be orthodox upon most things, or he will never even have time to preach his own heresy.

 

Haven't heard that one, Hobbesist

(#275506)

I'm just mildly curious about what your aquaintence has against Newark. 

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Ohio has 88 counties but

(#275484)
brutusettu's picture

Pennsylvania ain't one, if you're having geographic problems I feel bad for you son.

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

Just like with burnt flags,

(#275498)
Bird Dog's picture

the carrying of signs are free speech, particularly in an assembly authorized by the municipality. Elbayomy was denying Perce that form of free expression in his attempt to take it from him.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Fortunately,

(#275501)
aireachail's picture

the 1st Amendment doesn't address such actions between two private persons. But if it had been that municipality or other authority that had tried to stifle Perce? Bingo.

 

As joe citizen, I can post my soapbox directly across from yours and blast paintballs all over your beautiful placards to obscure them. I might then be arrested for any number of things, but it wouldn't be a 1st Amendment case.

Refusing To Enforce The Laws Violated By Such Actions Does

(#275504)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Otherwise, the Supreme Court's decision regarding flag burning doesn't mean much, does it? The punishment of burners could be farmed out to angry mobs, with the DA saying "Brutal beatdown? What brutal beatdown?"

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Well, if said angry mob stands around being angry

(#275509)
aireachail's picture

and nothing more, that DA would be correct, wouldn't he? I mean, no matter how moblike and angry those fellers were, there'd have to be an actual beatdown, right?

 

It's just possible that pulling on a styrofoam sign and tugging on a fake beard don't rise to "harassment" in that municipality and the burden wasn't met.

Analogy invalid: "beatdown" not found. -nt-

(#275512)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Air, it might not be a 1st Amendment case

(#275505)

but any man who shoots paintballs from a soapbox ought to be deported.  Do that stuff up in Canada.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Heh,

(#275508)
aireachail's picture

It's just that it would be so much more difficult and less effective to try to hurl soap while standing on paint cans.

 

...and I'm all for taking the easy route...

True/false question for you, Bird Dog.

(#275514)

Private citizens can be convicted of First Amendment violations. True/False? 

M Aurelius was probably right.

Huh

(#275562)
Bird Dog's picture

Bulls**t question.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Your own words, dude.

(#275569)

Elbayomy was denying Perce that form of free expression in his attempt to take it from him.

Leaving aside the lack-of-evidence problem, in your view, did Elbayomy commit a crime? Was it a crime against the first amendment? Is the proper punishment for violating the first amendment to be convicted of misdemeanor assault? Do you feel that this Elbayomy person should have been convicted of misdemeanor assault (whatever the charge is called in the state)? Or do you think instead that the judge should have convicted the man for "denying free expression"? Does the lack of evidence matter? Do you wonder whether there's any chance this man went out hoping to stir up exactly this kind of trouble, and that the judge is annoyed at having his courtroom used for a PR stunt?

M Aurelius was probably right.

Duh

(#275574)
Bird Dog's picture

The charge was harrassment, and the harrassment infringed on Perce's right to freely assemble and express himself. Like I said, bulls**t question.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

I'm Being Pedantic Here, at the start

(#275580)
brutusettu's picture

The assault/harassment charges have to do with Perce's right not to be assaulted/harassment. Perce was doing a legal act at the time, which set the state for their being no reason for an assault. I

f someone has something stolen from them by private citizen, typically people don't claim their 4th Amendment rights were violated.

 

[quote]Surprising that none of the many atheists here are perturbed that a judge made no distinction between a marching atheist and a marching racist.[/quote]

 

I don't think that's an accurate Cliff's Notes. Zombie Mohammed Guy wasn't just wearing, "I'm an atheist t-shirt." The judge didn't make a distinction between poking fun at a religion that is commonly vilified*, and a member of a racist group with a violent-oppressive history.

 

 

Mark Martin might have missed the mark with his "ethnic intimidation" accusation. Is there is any evidence that Zombie Mohammad Guy was dong anything remotely close to being a Grand Wizard? If he was looking for that, he'd probably put on some fake explosives. He was right next to Zombie Pope, which gives the "ethnic intimidation" from Zombie Mohammad Guy claim, a lot less bite.

 

 

* [img]http://i.huffpost.com/gen/513627/NEW-YORK-POST-CARTOON-MUSLIMS-TERRORISTS-NYPD-SURV.jpg[/img]

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

So there's absolutely no connection

(#275598)

between this case and first amendment rights, is what you're saying.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Of course,

(#275606)
Bird Dog's picture

that is your opinion.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Bird Dog, if you don't want your opinions challenged,

(#275618)

then for God's sake don't post them on the internet, would be my advice.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Leftist nt

(#275630)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

And that, too,

(#276008)
Bird Dog's picture

is your opinion. Sheesh. If I didn't mind my opinion being challenged, what the f**k do you think I'm doing here?

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Sense of humor on the fritz?

(#276045)

You cavalierly dismissed my line of thinking; I somewhat more sarcastically returned the favor.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Cavalierly?

(#276061)
Bird Dog's picture

No.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.