Did Obama negotiate U.S. foreign and military policy with Iraqi leaders?

5

If this is true, Barack Obama has a problem.

While campaigning in public for a speedy withdrawal of US troops from Iraq, Sen. Barack Obama has tried in private to persuade Iraqi leaders to delay an agreement on a draw-down of the American military presence.

According to Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari, Obama made his demand for delay a key theme of his discussions with Iraqi leaders in Baghdad in July.

"He asked why we were not prepared to delay an agreement until after the US elections and the formation of a new administration in Washington," Zebari said in an interview.

Obama insisted that Congress should be involved in negotiations on the status of US troops - and that it was in the interests of both sides not to have an agreement negotiated by the Bush administration in its "state of weakness and political confusion."

"However, as an Iraqi, I prefer to have a security agreement that regulates the activities of foreign troops, rather than keeping the matter open." Zebari says.

Though Obama claims the US presence is "illegal," he suddenly remembered that Americans troops were in Iraq within the legal framework of a UN mandate. His advice was that, rather than reach an accord with the "weakened Bush administration," Iraq should seek an extension of the UN mandate.

While in Iraq, Obama also tried to persuade the US commanders, including Gen. David Petraeus, to suggest a "realistic withdrawal date." They declined.


Sounds to me like, instead of Obama going to Iraq on a fact-finding mission to ascertain the situation on the ground, his mind was already made up about Iraq and he set about trying to meddle in ongoing diplomatic and military efforts. This is a no-no and a violation of the Logan Act, which is a felony. It's one thing to ask questions, but another thing altogether to try to persuade foreign leaders and U.S. military personnel. And for a teacher of constitutional law, getting Congress involved in international negotiations sounds odd. A plain reading of Article II, Section 2 tells me that the executive branch makes the treaties and the Congress gives advice and consent. Secondary is Obama's hypocrisy in wanting to delay a Status of Forces Agreement until after he gets inaugurated, which could slow the pace of withdrawal of U.S. forces.

Taheri was quoting directly Foreign Minister Zebari, so it sounds legit, but additional confirmation would be nice, as would Obama's alleged exhortations to military commanders to come up with withdrawal dates, especially because Taheri has made some factually false statements in the past. Taheri also shows that he doesn't understand the Bush Doctrine, but I don't think that's a disqualifier because so many others in the media are clueless about it as well. (Hat tip to Hotair.)

[Update I:] The Obama campaign denies what Taheri wrote. Ben Smith at The Politico:

An Obama aide accused Taheri of confusing the Status of Forces agreement with a Strategic Framework Agreement, for which Obama has pushed for congressional review.

This makes no sense because, according to Obama's own website, a SoFA is a strategic framework agreement, and the SoFA negotiations were in process when Obama visited Iraq (and they're still in process). The Obama campaign statement:
"This article bears as much resemblance to the truth as a McCain campaign commercial. Barack Obama has consistently called for any Strategic Framework Agreement to be submitted to the U.S. Congress so that the American people have the same opportunity for review as the Iraqi Parliament," said Obama spokeswoman Wendy Morigi. "Unlike John McCain, he supports a clear timetable to redeploy our troops that has the support of the Iraqi government. Barack Obama has never urged a delay in negotiations, nor has he urged a delay in immediately beginning a responsible drawdown of our combat brigades."

The relevant passage is that Obama, through his spokeswoman, denies pursuing a delay in negotiations with Iraqi officials. This doesn't negate the need to verify what Zebari said.

[Update II:] If this AFP article is accurate, then it sounds like Zebari was quoted accurately.

In fact, Obama had told the Iraqis that they should not rush through a "Strategic Framework Agreement" governing the future of US forces until after President George W. Bush leaves office, she said.

It sure sounds to me like Obama was urging Zebari to delay the SoFA agreement until he gets inaugurated.

[Update III:] Abu Aardvark found one source that had Zebari's quotation, and notes that Obama was inquiring about a delay in negotiations, and the question occurred in June 2008 when Zebari met with McCain and Obama in Washington DC, not in July 2008 when Obama met with Zebari in Iraq. If there is no other source, then Taheri flubbed it. This doesn't explain the Obama spokeswoman's comment in Update II, except that she didn't know what happened.

[Update IV:] Taheri wrote a follow-up to his earlier piece, and he references a report by MSNBC last June. The relevant MSNBC excerpts:

Obama spoke briefly (about 10 minutes) with reporters about his telephone conversation with Zebari. He said he was encouraged by the progress made in reducing the violence in Iraq, but believed troops should be withdrawn, and they should do so carefully.

Obama also told Zebari, he said, that Congress should be involved in any negotiations regarding a Status of Forces agreement with Iraq. He suggested it may be better to wait until the next administration to negotiate such an agreement.

Asked by NBC's Lee Cowan if a timetable for the status of forces agreement was discussed, Obama said, "Well he, the foreign minister, had presented a letter requesting an extension of the UN resolution until the end of this year. So that’s a six-month extension.

"Obviously we can't have U.S. forces operating on the ground in iraq without some sort of agreement, either a further extension of the U.N. resolution or some sort of Status of Forces agreement, some strategic framework agreement. As I said before, my concern is that the Bush administration--in a weakened state politically--ends up trying to rush an agreement that in some ways might be binding to the next administration, whether it was my administration or Sen. McCain's administration.

"The foreign minister agreed that the next administration should not be bound by an agreement that’s currently made, but I think the only way to assure that is to make sure that there is strong bipartisan support, that Congress is involved, that the American people know the outlines of this agreement, and my concern is that if the Bush administration negotiates, as it currently has, and given that we're entering into the heat of political season that we're probably better off not trying to complete a hard and fast agreement before the next administration takes office, but I think obviously these conversations have to continue. As I said my No. 1 priority is making sure that we don’t have a situation in which us troops on the ground are somehow vulnerable to, are made more vulnerable, because there is a lack of a clear mandate."


Emphases mine. Obama "suggested" to Zebari a delay in negotiating a Status of Forces Agreement, and Obama made it clear--in his own words--that a SoFA is "some strategic framework agreement". In this situation, the two kinds agreements are basically the same thing. A SoFa is an SFA.

Abu Aardvark wrote that Taheri's "only source" for Zebari's comments were from al-Sharq al-Awsat, which has no English translation. However, Taheri mentioned his sources (in addition to MSNBC above) here:

My account of Obama's message to the Iraqis was based on a series of conversations with Iraqi officials, as well as reports and analyses in the Iraqi media (including the official newspaper, Al Sabah) on the senator's trip to Baghdad. It is also confirmed by Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari.

In a long interview with the pan-Arab daily Asharq al-Awsat, Zebari says: "Obama asked me why, in view of the closeness of a change of administration, we were hurrying the signing of this special agreement, and why we did not wait until the coming of the new administation next year and agree on some issues and matters."


So here's what I conclude so far. The Obama campaign is blowing smoke in their efforts to try to make distinctions between SoFA and SFA, and Obama clearly suggested to the Iraqi foreign minister that SoFA negotiations be delayed until the next administration (preferably his, I'm sure) takes office. Taheri is vindicated part way, maybe even most way. His earlier column placed Obama in Iraq when these things were said, and he can't support that Obama made demands. However, it appears Taheri is reasonably accurate in saying that Obama "tried in private to persuade" Iraqi leaders, which may be a violation in the Logan Act because Obama was not authorized to negotiate on behalf of the U.S. government. If convicted, the penalty is up to three years in federal prison, although there is no known record of any convictions or prosecutions.

[Update V:] Jake Tapper followed up concerning the July meeting in Iraq between Obama and Zebari. U.S. Ambassador Crocker and Senators Hagel and Reed were also in attendance. It looks pretty clear that Obama did not suggest a delay in negotiating agreements at that time. What Obama said in June over the phone to Zebari still remains as reported by MSNBC.

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It's always fascinating...

(#121408)

...to watch the myths being constructed in real time.

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

You are defending an argument Taheri didn't make

(#121397)

In this situation, the two kinds agreements are basically the same thing. A SoFa is an SFA.

Putting aside for the moment that you are continuing to defend a version of a conversation based only on the say so of a known fabricator....very cute, but wrong:

Since the announcement, the Administration has announced that there will be two agreements negotiated, a Status
of Forces Agreement (SOFA) providing the legal basis between the two countries for the continued presence and operation of U.S. armed forces in Iraq once the U.N. Security Council mandate expires on December 31, 2008, and a Strategic Framework agreement (together with the SOFA, the “Iraq Agreements” or “Agreements”) to cover the overall bilateral relationship between the two countries.

And, of course, this isn't what Taheri implied in his original column. Let's go back to the tape:

Sen. Barack Obama has tried in private to persuade Iraqi leaders to delay an agreement on a draw-down of the American military presence.

False, false, false. Garbage.

The two are inextricably linked

(#121401)

A SoFa is part of the larger SFA. Even Obama's website acknowledges that. There is no way Iraqis would agree to extending status without attaching provisions on force levels. Obama is trying to play it clever by detaching the two, which is rank bullsh*t. And MSNBC was pretty clear that Obama was talking about delaying the SoFA, so either Obama was confused about the differences, Taheri was, or both.


"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy

Rank BS? Good grief. There's a far simpler explanation.

(#121404)

Taheri is a liar, always was one. Lies when the truth would serve him better. But I'm not particularly alarmed or horrified, those people lie all the time. It disgusts Westerners, but it shouldn't.

We take lies very seriously, here in the West, particularly in the tightass US of A. Someone gets caught in a lie, oh the harrumphing, oh the outrage. But that's unique in world societies. Japanese have two words, Honne and Tatemae. Honne is how you really feel, the honest truth of things. Tatemae is the superficial, external, polite reading. Fact is, our insistence on the baldfaced truth in our society forces us to lie to ourselves. Look at how blatantly partisan we are here, how incredibly religious, how dogmatic we are in our beliefs. If we're confronted with inconvenient truths, we'll stand there and act like someone's trying to put us down, deny our beliefs.

Nobody else in the world acts like us. People laugh at us behind our backs. The Iraqis in charge are scamming us, billions of dollars a month, those gonifs are getting rich. When's the last time you saw one of them in anything but a bespoke suit? They don't get a clothing allowance: suits like that come from Savile Row in London, and it's all paid for with bribes and kickbacks, and if they steal, what makes you think they won't lie, too?

The Iraqis are gaming us. They gamed Bush for two terms now. They're trying to game Obama. They know if Obama's elected, their free ride will come to an end. So if they put out some lie about how he's trying to stopper up progress, that's a sly jab. Even if it were true, and none of us know for sure, it's not like Ronald Reagan didn't do the same thing with Iran with the hostage crisis, telling the Ayatollah to make sure the hostages weren't released before the election.

If it were just...

(#121446)

...Taheri, maybe so. But it's clear from MSNBC that Obama was trying to persuade Zebari to delay negotiations until after inauguration day.


"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy

Once again SOFA != Troop withdrawal

(#121452)

Once again, you are defending an argument Taheri isn't making.

That Took Long Enough

(#121442)
M Scott Eiland's picture

October Surprise tinfoil-worthy reference: check!

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--from Ulysses, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson

It's Still Garbage

(#121391)

Because it's still Taheri. And it makes us one of the few sites outside of Deep Wingtardia to give it further attention.

And that's not the crowd we usually run with. Thankfully. But hey. Any word on Michelle Obama's whitey tape?

“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco

Wingtardia Leviosa

(#121449)
TXG1112's picture

OT - every time I see someone write Wingtardia I wonder what the spell might do. If we're lucky it might lift the right wing into enlightenment, but I suspect even Harry isn't that powerful a wizard.

[edit: added link]

--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.

Grown men should not admit to having read Harry Potter

(#121479)

I suggest hitting the participants at this site w. a memory charm.

I have a good excuse

(#121495)
TXG1112's picture

I had to read something, my wife is a librarian. :)

--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.

Actually, it's not "still Taheri"

(#121396)

It's Keith Olbermann's MSNBC, which I thought was your political touchstone, sorta like TPM.

[Update] Concerning Michelle Obama's alleged whitey tape, that canard was pushed primarily by Larry Johnson, a Democrat, a Hillary supporter, and on-line goon and thug. I never came near that one. Thankfully, Republicans didn't either, except for a few true-blue loony tunes.


"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy

See Spartikus Comment Above

(#121399)

It's still garbage. But I'm sure the next five updates will make it less so. Or not. Hey, I don't blame you. Anything is better than talking about the week McCain is having.

“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco

Tsk.

(#121393)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

Suck it up, your golden boy's just another pol. :^)

-“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009

It wasn't before, but it's promotion-worthy now

(#121390)

Just my opinion.


"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy

Happy to see the update

(#121274)

Seems to me vetting should be a function of the site.

Taheri 'Flubbed It'

(#121236)

Sorta like Sarah keeps 'flubbing' about the Bridge to Nowhere. Yes?

“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco

Ha

(#121195)

Smackdown.

I blame it all on the Internet

Now that...

(#121213)

...is worth an update.


"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy

Good for you

(#121233)

I have to take AA's analysis at face value as I don't read Arabic and can't follow the Arabic press the way he does. He's seemed very accurate as long as I've been reading him.

I blame it all on the Internet

I'll say it again...

(#121198)

...an apology is warranted.

To who?

(#121289)

Obama? The site? You? What?

Politicians spend our money like a pimp with only a week to live.  CJ Boxx

isn't it, to whom?

(#121299)

ny

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

Weird. Hell just Froze Over. nt

(#121392)

“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco

Nah.

(#121395)

The extraneous comma still gives it that ineffable whiff of Timmy-speak.

Bene vixit, bene qui latuit

I knew it

(#121380)

In real life, you're a copy editor, aren't you?

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

I didn't want to sound pretentious. (No offense intended,

(#121332)

of course.) %^>

Politicians spend our money like a pimp with only a week to live.  CJ Boxx

Oh, so NOW you care about grammar? nt

(#121303)

I blame it all on the Internet

Jesus, Mary and Joseph

(#121305)

i don't really care but i wish to be helpful.

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

I'm no expert on the Logan Act

(#121164)

but surely a mere request to a foreign government does not fall under its purview. If that's the case, then an awful lot of Sense of the Senate resolutions are ipso facto treasonous, which is not necessarily a bad thing given the margins by which they typically pass, but is certainly an unintended consequence.

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

True

(#121211)

Asking and declaration one's position is different from negotiating.


"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy

Oh for god's sake.

(#121118)

Re: Update II: The Status of Forces agreement and the drawdown of U.S. troops are two distinct things. Zebari is talking about the former and Taheri - known, serial fabricator - is insinuating the latter.

This is garbage.

That is understood

(#121210)

Zebari was clearly quoted on the subject of the SoFA, and the Obama campaign was clearly referencing the SoFA in Update II. The Obama timeline for drawing down troops is a separate issue. It's a total red herring.


"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy

This is Embarrassing, Bird Dog

(#120994)

You should take it down. You can do, and have done, far better than to drag someone like Taheri in here. No matter how happy it may make Timmy.

“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco

Bird Dog, I'm surprised

(#120879)

you should have opened, there is “no evidence of misconduct on the part of"* Obama, but given the parameters of this story, it should be investigated.

*Tom Foley line with respect to a Congressional investigation of Bush 41 on the "October Surprise".

the other aspect that you missed is that Obama's request parrot demands being made by Congressional Democrats throughout 08.

and we shouldn't forget the Democrats' concern that Bush would start withdrawing troops just before the 04 Congressional elections.

Democrats playing politics with Iraq, it is an old story.

so the proper retort is, there should be an investigation by DoJ with delivery by 30 October.

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

Why stop there Timmy?

(#120919)

Maybe the DoJ could also investigate why John McCain hasn't signed off on a SF-180? We all remember you beating the Kerry drum on this issue for months. Yet not a whisper from you this time. Why is that Timmy?

Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. -Mark Twain

precedence for one, don't get back get even

(#120948)

why is that, well two reasons

1. when John had the opportunity to exit early, he stayed with his mates. in general we value that kind of loyalty.

2. when John came back to the states, he didn't sh^t all over his mates.

Spin, please fell free to do the math.

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

Misstatement of fact.

(#121013)
Zelig's picture

My assumption is that it is purposeful. McCain had no opportunity to "exit early" as his commanding officer has stated repeatedly. The rule at the Hanoi Hilton was that if anybody is released, it is the man who's been in the longest. McCain would have violated a direct order, and thus committed treason if he had agreed to an "early out" from his captivity. He didn't, and he stayed. Just following orders.

As to McCain not "sh^tting all over his mates", what's your point? My guess is that he didn't vomit on them or urinate on his mates either. If you've got a point to make about " sh^tting all over" somebody's mates, then man up and say it.

Lastly, do you have any idea who ratted out McCain to his NVA captors? Or to put this another way, how did McCain's captors find out who his daddy was? Did one of his "mates" rat him out? Do you know the answer to this question that remains central to the mystery of McCain's captivity?

Me: We! -- Ali

As to McCain not "sh^tting all

(#121231)

as compared to a previous presidential nominee who testified before the Senate. if memory serves, he also went to Paris to meet with.

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

The debunking continues.

(#121432)
Zelig's picture

I'll assume your silence means that you're now disabused of the notion that McCain could have been released from captivity early without suffering a court-martial and worse. Good. We're making progress.

As to a "previous presidential nominee who testified before the Senate", I'm not sure who you mean. Most candidates qualify on this point. None, to my knowledge has ever "sh^t all over his mates", although telling the truth about crimes and incidents that happen in combat zones often makes those who support elective wars uncomfortable. If that feels like being shat upon, well, buck up, Timmy the Wo, I've been told you can become somewhat inured to the stench, given enough time and persistence.

Me: We! -- Ali

Can we keep this filth out of here?

(#120874)

What kind of idiots would we need to be to believe Taheri given his history?

This belongs in Redstate.

This place is my vacation.

Amir Taheri? Bwahaha!

(#120795)

When I see quote without cites, I always smell a rat. Here's the cite from NY Post

Let me tell you a bit about that neoconservative snotbag Amir Taheri. First, he's Farsi, he's not Iraqi, he used to be the editor of Kayhan, the Shah's mouthpiece newspaper in Tehran. More recently, he's been carrying water for Achmed Chalabi, and presently, he's carrying water for Shiite interests in Iraq. He's more widely known in French than English since he went to Paris after the revolution. He's been busily lying about Iran and Iraq ever since, with the able assistance of his mendacious turd of an editor, Eleana Benador, featuring a startling rogue's gallery, beginning with Richard Perle, Laurie Mylroie and the biggest jackass of all, Kanan Makiya, who rah-rahed the White House into the lobster trap called Iraq.

Put it this way, anything with Amir Taheri on the label is pure BS. He's been caught putting up all sorts of lies, nonsense and conspiracy theories. He should probably be in jail.

Wasn't Chalabi recently cited by the Left with favor

(#120930)

because he said something they felt helped their cause? I can look it up if you don't remember it.

Politicians spend our money like a pimp with only a week to live.  CJ Boxx

Please do.

(#120933)

I'm curious.

Would you do that lookup? Who speaks for The Left anyway?

(#120932)

That's another answer I'd like to see you look up. Plural pronouns of the They sort always leave me mystified. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Your wish, my command.

(#120938)

Link.

Two or more lefties ="they". Just like two righties do. Doesn't mean everyone on their respective sides agrees with whatever statement is in question, just that someone with mouthpiece status on one side or the other has taken a particular position. But I'll amend to say "some on the Left". How's that? You'll have to do the same, though.

Politicians spend our money like a pimp with only a week to live.  CJ Boxx

Chalabi Wasn't Cited as a Source

(#120946)

in your link. And neither does your link reveal two capital L Lefties commenting favorably on Chalabi. Instead, the linked copy says two unnamed sources said Chalabi lobbied Maliki to show support for Obama's withdrawal timeline.

I can't imagine that Obama will be adding Chalabi anytime soon to his roster of 300 foreign policy advisers, despite the favor Chalabi has apparently done on his behalf.

I think the presence of the word "favor" tripped up your google search.

Funny play on words, but no.

(#121005)

The Chalabi backing of "US out of Iraq soon" was bandied about here when people thought the Iraqis were backing Obama's play, which is how I learned of it. If I were better with the forvm search doohickies and Hank stopped blocking my efforts to substantiate stories implicating Lefties, I'd have the goods already. But if you want direct quotes of Chalabi offered for the truth of what he said, you can't get much Leftier than Counterpaunch.

The simple point was and is that People of Left (better?) are quite willing to cite Chalabi to support a point they want to make; IOW, that a lying liar who lies can still be quoted for the truth when it suits someone who has repeatedly called him a liar. I never said or implied that Obama was the one who referenced Chalabi.

Politicians spend our money like a pimp with only a week to live.  CJ Boxx

Not Much Approval There, Either

(#121026)

and readers aren't asked to rely on Chalabi's version of events (as readers are with Taheri), only evaluate his evaluation of Iranian motives.

As I understand it, the next iteration of the site will feature improved search capabilities.

two capital L Lefties

(#120950)

do lefties come by model and year?

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

Jeffrey "WMD" Goldberg?

(#120943)

Alexander Cockburn gives him a few well-deserved whacks over here.

And no, I don't go along with the "some on the Left" line. That's what we call a Weasel Word on Wikipedia.

From your very own source:

(#121006)

Cockburn (from the Oporto shipping family?) quotes Chalabi to make his points in Suckerpunch.

Politicians spend our money like a pimp with only a week to live.  CJ Boxx

Told y'all I was going over for a six pack, yes? Here's my tale

(#121039)

of that journey.

So I stroll over to the gas station. My friend Zakir the Pakistani is on duty, I pay for my booze. We start talking, in my horrible Urdu. No matter, Urdu like English allows me to jam in the English noun.

So, what do you hear from Pakistan? I ask him. Anything about the Amriki bombing?

Oh yes, the Pakistani air force drove them away!

Oh, I heard it was ground fire, some helicopters coming in, trying to establish an landing zone, something like that.

I hear it was Pakistani air force, anyway, the Amriki were pushed out.

Inshallah.

Inshallah, hamdillulah.

The drones drop guided bombs, I read on the Internet. They destroyed a house. Some children died. The Taliban arrived, sorted out the dead. Tragic.

Yes, tragic, Al-hamdulillah 'ala kool ahal. (Allah should be praised, regardless of time or circumstance == annoyance, tragedy)

Zakir, my friend, the Amriki are repeating history. Every empire must go to the Hindu Kush, to meet the Pashtuns. Nobody ever beat them.

Hasbun Allah. ( Allah is enough. == insurmountable obstacle, no answer, perplexity )

Zakir, we will fail, as all other empires have failed, hasbun Allah. They are so vast, those mountains, and we are so few.

La-hawla wa-la kubala il-la B'illah. == there is no glory save for Allah alone. Means bad news, bad bad news. Ain't no good news for me nor for you.

And there we were, me buying a shirk pagan six-pack and him selling it to me, in a godforsaken gas station in Norcross fecking Georgia.

Back here, consuming that brew. And now you know, too.

"some on the Left"

(#120952)

if not all, then none and interesing method to limit conversation

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

Not to mention...

(#120947)

...this is an example of "approval"? Because this is simply a recitation of events.

Choosy moms choose Jif.

(#120964)

And white-smocked Scientist Types tell us we have Restless Leg Syndrome. I'm getting a Restless Leg all right. I want to put my boot up someone's ass. Nobody here on Forvm, rest easy on that front. But I feel like I'm living in Niger Republic, like I did all those years ago. But even then, out back, we had two 55 gallon drums with a hand crank, to put petrol in the old Land Rover. Dad would take them over to Magaria and fill them up. Dad would lash them down and we'd go bumping back out to the station.

I've never, ever been without gas before. Not even in Niger Republic. This is metro Atlanta. I'm not losing my mind, my country really is failing. Chunks falling off, splashing into the sea. This is worse, in some ways, than 9/11, only this time, the terrorists hit Times Square. Dow's off 504.48. Merrill Lynch just disappeared in a 50 billion dollar deal. AIG's got the tin cup out for 40 billion dollars.

But it's really REALLY important that a bankrupt company gave some money to Barack Obama. Maybe they thought he'd turn around the attitude of the country, can you blame them? Well, it's a long way to January, and as stupid as America is, we've got to contend with John McCain saying the fundamentals of this economy are sound. You betcha. I'll haul out my VISA debit card and make a contribution right away to Mr. McCain, because he sure does have this economy sized up.

i prefer skippy

(#120972)

after all we had an aussie name skippy. it is not unusual for a herding dog to be on task from dawn to dusk. skippy was a herder, agile, quick sharp teeth, apt at the pivot and the carveout. a tri-colour with two floppy ears, narrow chest and a bob of a tail, one blue and one brown eye all combined in a blur of a package.

bred to herd cattle by nipping at the hooves; quickness is key as a slow aussie will have a short life. aussies are always seeking their master's approval. after six years maybe seven, if it is an exceptional dog, the dog is retired. each dog will have its own territory in the pickup and if a dog is lucky, up front with his master.

eventually the bones will get weary and the dog will slide into a spot next to the stove dreaming of herding cattle. then some morning the sleep is permanent. a tear and a paryer, then back to work with the dog's blood line.

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

I used to have a dog named Skippy in Niger.

(#120982)

He would eat tuwo da miya, which was a sorghum porridge, with some gravy. He was a pretty good dog as these things go, a regular old African dog with a tail like the curve of the Arabic letter baa. He always got fleas, but we'd give him baths. My sister would hug him a lot and she'd get fleas. He never played catch or anything, but he was always there, waiting for more tuwo.

He got sick with rabies, since there was no way to inoculate him out there. My mother made us kids come inside and listen to the record player. She put on Beethoven's 9th, the fourth movement, with all that crashing and banging. Unfortunately, when Dad shot Skippy, the record wasn't quite playing one of the crashy bangy parts, and we kids heard it. Mom wouldn't let us go outside. Dad and Halilu buried Skippy under the gao tree.

that's cool

(#120987)

it is a shame you couldn't order a rabies vaccine via mail.

my best skippy story, is when the oldest escaped, only one and half, we found her about thirty minutes later with skippy at her side. that relationship lasted for the next sixteen years.

when skippy was put down, my oldest held him, it was his time.

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

Taheri, part of the "Jews in Iran must wear yellow stars" hoax

(#120904)

He's confused Status of Forces agreement w/ "troop timetable"

(#120921)

The Obama campaign's official response:

This article bears as much resemblance to the truth as a McCain campaign commercial. Barack Obama has consistently called for any Strategic Framework Agreement to be submitted to the U.S. Congress so that the American people have the same opportunity for review as the Iraqi Parliament," said Obama spokeswoman Wendy Morigi. "Unlike John McCain, he supports a clear timetable to redeploy our troops that has the support of the Iraqi government. Barack Obama has never urged a delay in negotiations, nor has he urged a delay in immediately beginning a responsible drawdown of our combat brigades."

MSNBC, June 16, 2008:

He said he told Zebari that negotiations for a Status of Forces agreement or strategic framework agreement between the two countries should be done in the open and with Congress's authorization and that it was important that that there be strong bipartisan support for any agreement so that it can be sustained through a future administration. He argued it would make sense to hold off on such negotiations until the next administration.

This diary needs to be updated, and an apology issued.

Who confused what?

(#120974)

A SoFA is a "strategic framework agreement", according to Obama's own website. It is apparent that he's been consistent about wanting congressional approval. The campaign's denial of a delay in negotiation merits an update, which I just made. Apology not necessary.


"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy

You don't think it's necessary to apologise?

(#120991)

For bringing crap from a known, serial fabricator here? Whose latest flight into fantasy is collapsing?

Alrighty then.

But I would suggest more Googling of authors in the future.

the source doesn't matter,

(#120910)

it is the seriousness of the issue.

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

Here's another very serious charge.

(#120916)

Right here.

Remember, the source doesn't matter!

The Iraqi foreign minister doesn't matter?

(#120975)

nt


"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy

Release the audio tape!

(#120993)

Shouldn't be a problem, should it.

You can't even get the basic numbers

(#120979)

on financial contributions right, confusing donations by individuals with lobbying by firms, and persist in digging a hole on this topic as well?

Let it go, we'd need to be utter idiots to believe a word this Taheri guy writes.

This place is my vacation.

No, of course not

(#121014)

The post had plenty of question marks, qualifiers and conditionals, and it concluded that Zebari's remarks needed confirmation, which would mean that a credible person not named Taheri should do the verifying.


"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy

did she violate the Logan Act?

(#120918)

nt

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

Did she violate Mexican Law?

(#120922)

-nt-

well ask the Mexicans

(#120953)

we shall investigate what happened in Iraq

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

Sarah Palin *needs* to answer these cocaine allegations....

(#120973)

...I suggest a round of the Sunday talk shows and an "I did not buy cocaine in Tijuana with my lover" op-ed in the Times. Either LA or NY will do.

She should bring the Mexican police report clearing her (or, if doesn't, not bringing it)

Then, and only then, can we move on.

i missed that exercise with Obama and

(#120976)

questions about his days in the big city.

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

deleted

(#120917)

nt

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

Nevertheless

(#120801)

Taheri directly quoted the Iraqi foreign minister. The point here is that it's worth following up to see if Zebari was quoted accurately. If so, then this is a big story. If not, then he has demonstrated once and for that he has no business writing for anyone anywhere.


"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy

Once and For All?

(#120866)

Nah. I'm assuming his willingness to lie like this will come in handy a couple more times. Hey. He could write copy for McCain campaign ads!

“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco

I'd like to see that quote re-sourced as well.

(#120806)

The Shiites are playing both sides against the middle, and Zebari is the worst among them. Zebari is mere bafflegap, a waste of space. He doesn't know anything, and if he claims to, he's lying.

it is certainly a possibility

(#120882)

and you should join me, in requesting a DoJ inquiry to be delivered by 30 October.

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

I'd declare Taheri persona non grata and expel him to Iran

(#120886)

where the mullahs would deal with his lying ass with great promptness.

fine, but this has to be investigated.

(#120911)

nt

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

How did Inspector Clouseau put it?

(#120920)

A beekeeper who has lost his voice, a cook who thinks he's a gardener, and a witness to a murder. Oh, yes. It is obvious to my trained eye, that there is much more going on here than meets the ear.

Who said murder?

(#120939)

Best line in that scene:

Mrs. Sapister: That was a priceless Steinway!

Clouseau: Not anymore.

And they called him the Pavlova of the Parallel Bars.

Politicians spend our money like a pimp with only a week to live.  CJ Boxx

Taheri fabricates, Bird Dog.

(#120804)

Have you ever read this guy's history?

He lies like a rug. He's been exposed time and again and folks still publish him.

Why would Zebari talk to him and no one else?

How many times does he have to "demonstrate" that he makes sh*t up?

This time. (nt)

(#120858)

(nt)

He likes to make stuff up.

(#120799)

Iran forcing Jews and Christians to wear identifying garb!

That's my personal favourite. The National Post had to publish an apology for that one.

Yet I see his b.s. spouted far and wide in the wingnutosphere as gospel.

True or Not

(#120780)

From the POV of long term US interests in the region, what Obama is said to have said is correct: US negotiators should wait and allow the next administration (Obama 's or McCain's) to strike a deal from a position of strength.

And for a teacher of constitutional law, getting Congress involved in international negotiations sounds odd.

This is probably in reference to the Bush Admin's (and probably all of its predecessors) insistence that SOFAs don't rise to the level of Treaty (which, as you know, require Senate approval). Josh Marshall says the Supreme Court has never been asked to offer an opinion. Model 62 says they probably never will.

In truth it is pretty non-partisan in approach

(#120789)

In fact a delay would benefit both parties and the US moving forward. I am ambivalent on SOFA... (More for a regional balance issue than internal problems)

I have my doubts on the liner thinking that all things are partisan and negative at all times. The tone of your post seems to focus on only the negative view of some kind of interference. Looked at by party first that might be true. Looked at by country first that might be false. The US will have far more credibility and standing with either new administration. In fact we would be negotiating from a strengthen position. A negotiation with a lame duck is not one that leads to either side getting the best solution.

Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your

Also asking a question on the issue or probing the topic

(#120794)

is not a negotiation IMHO. Obama has no true standing at this point. I also don't assume that we don't do things in non-partisan ways outside the US by design and with full knowledge of the current Administration and State department. I would hope that at times it is even done on purpose or we are less smart and sofisticated than we should be.

Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your

Given the Source --

(#120748)

I'm going to go with 'no.' But hey. If nothing else, it will be fun for you to spend a day doing something other than defending half the ticket from being a liar, and the other half from stupid.

So there's that.

“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco

Looks like this guy has a credibility problem..

(#120747)

His politics also don't make him a credible source.

Come on timmy do a bit of due diligence before putting up as much mud as possible and see what sticks... This might be ok for Red State or Free Republic but the Forvm is supposed to be a place for credible debate...

At least I hope it is...

Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your

Hence the question marks and qualifiers and conditionals

(#120769)

Taheri quoted the Iraqi foreign minister directly, so to me it's enough of a story to pursue confirmation.


"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy

Hence the Question Marks...

(#120783)

What're you, the National Enquirer? :)

“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco

If the National Enquirer used...

(#120788)

...direct quotes from named sources, I'd use 'em. Otherwise...


"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy

See Blaise Above re Taheri

(#120797)

My guess is that you're not a big fan of Chalabi and the rest of his stooges. Teheri is more of the same.

“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco

Seems a bit out their even with my own confirmation bias

(#120775)

I will give you the qualifiers. It would beg the question of cutting ones face off for their head.... Their is no upside on the issue. Iraq is a large issue but one that will have minimal impact on the election as far as policy solutions at this point.

Ideology alone puts this in the questionable motives arena. We will see if the foreign minister backs up this story with other outlets. I am not sure on his own motivations which would have to be looked at as well. It does not pass the smell test and I am sure that Obama was never alone with these guys to guard against just this thing.

Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your

Heh

(#120750)

I thought it was from Timmy too.

“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco

i would have opened with Tom Foley

(#120955)

and the caveat, Obama isn't quilty but he should be investigated and then proceed for there.

"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."

Wow my mistake and apology to timmy... I would not have thought

(#120752)

BD was the poster and just read it to quick I guess... Still the same view I posted above holds...

Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your