I just read the Contract from America put together by Tea Party Patriots. I generally agree with their principles, which are divided into three pillars: individual liberty, limited government and economic freedom. But I have serious issues with their actual positions. Here's my take on their ten items:
1. Protect the Constitution. I don't see the point of a bill referencing a specific article of the Constitution. The "general welfare" clause covers a lot of ground. If there are constitutional issues, we have a court system for a reason. I vote nay on this.
2. Reject cap and trade. I'm not with them on this, either. I'm open-minded on cap-and-trade provided that it contains sufficient free market mechanisms.
3. Demand a balanced budget. I'm not with them on that. I don't agree with a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution and I don't agree with a two-thirds vote for tax increases. The budget mess in California is an example of the failure of super-majorities for tax hikes. Not that I don't want a balanced budget, but with the structural imbalance we have, I doubt we'll get close to it for at least a decade.
4. Enact fundamental tax reform. I favor some simplification, but I don't favor a single rate. Put me down as a "no".
5. Restore fiscal responsibility and constitutionally limited government in Washington. I approve of a Blue Ribbon task force and audit.
6. End runaway government spending. It sounds reasonable to impose caps on spending growth. We had that in Washington State--enacted by citizen initiative--and it worked reasonably well the Democras emasculated it. However, on a federal level, this will likely require entitlement reform and addressing other complexities, and it could open up a whole crate of worms. Count me as half on board.
7. Defund, repeal and replace government-run health care. I'm not with them on that, and the phrase "government-run health care" is brainless bumper sticker talk.
8. Pass an "all of the above" energy policy. Except for coal, I agree. I think coal needs to be phased out and nuclear energy phased in. All in all, I'm three-quarters on board with them.
9. Stop the pork. I agree with this, especially when our current annual deficit is north of a trillion.
10. Stop the tax hikes. I don't agree. Some tax hikes are okay. I don't oppose letting the Bush tax cuts expire in the high income brackets. I don't oppose raising user fees. Generally, I agree with Bruce Bartlett on taxes and tax policy.
So to recap, out of the ten planks of their platform, I agree with 32.5% of their agenda. Disagreeing with more than two-thirds of their issues does not a Tea Partier make, and I think that most of their positions are misguided or wrong. So there you have it.
If Tea Partiers demonize or make false and misleading statements, they should be called on it. By the same token, if anti-Tea Partiers demonize or make false and misleading statements, they should be called on it.



Of course you're not
(#214511)That's obvious from your comments. Those who refer to you as one are revealing something about themselves, not you.
Anyway, I find the Tea Party movement fascinating to the extent that it reveals some of the schisms, or perhaps contradictions, in the American right. That the same crowd of people could cheer for both Sarah Palin and Ron Paul is... bizarre. "Limited government" is increasingly a sort of Rohrshach blot that means whatever the credulous listener wants it to mean. I went through a similar experience on the left during the Bush years, assuming (naively, in retrospect) that other people meant the same thing I did by phrases like "civil liberties". Obviously in the Obama era this has been revealed not to be the case.
The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
Thanks for the breath of fresh sanity.
(#214339)You know what the problem is with you conservatives, Bird Dog? Do you want to hear it?
You won. Reagan won. The media & the Beltway establishment have long since bought into the fundamental principles of the Reagan Revolution: limited government; wariness of unintended consequences & perverse incentives; pro-capital approach to innovation & allocation; low taxes; muscular foreign policy but collaboration with ex-enemies. Every one of those precepts has been incorporated as scripture by the federal government at all levels. Reagan presided over the death of much of the Great Society (except of course for its largest & most expensive safety nets), but philosophically the model of social reengineering by government fiat is dead. We no longer believe that "tax these people and give some cruddy benefits to these other people" is a viable way to address the public good. You won.
Granted, and obviously, I'm only speaking of an ideological victory. The problems of our government, economy, & regulatory system are obviously badly broken right now, partly as a result of the attempt to impose new Reaganite regulatory schemes over the hideous network of earmarks & kickbacks that is the reality of current federal budgeting. There's a *lot* of work for fiscal conservatives these days.
But where the hell are they all? Answer: they're on the back pages of boring newspapers nobody reads. Instead, the nominally "conservative" party, and its even further right wing offshoots, has discovered that it has no real causes left, and has gone full bore nutbar trying to out Reagan Reagan. If a little conservative medicine is good for the country, what happens if we drink the whole damn bottle?
The GOP & the Tea Party are trying to fight a war they've already won, and they're running way way out to the lunatic right in order to appeal as conservative enough. The end of that road is irrelevance.
Hell, the Democrats right now are closer to Reagan (perhaps slightly to his right on many issues) than the Republicans. But they could sure use a hand, someone to remind them to listen to their better angels.
Don't believe everything you think.
I agree that conservatives won.
(#214370)That's why GDP growth has been on average below trend for the past 30 years and this generation is the first to expect not to exceed their parents.
Judge by the actions, not the rhetoric. The actions are exploding deficits, selling arms to one group of terrorists to fund another group of terrorists, and environmental degradation for the sake of degradation. Add to that the relentless exploitation and widening for racial tensions, and you have the (again, successful) conservative agenda.
Yes, conservatives said they were for different things. That's because if they'd said they were for massive government deficits, slower economic growth, the largest prison population on earth, and selling guns to terrorists, they wouldn't have gotten elected.
Well, maybe in 2004. Media capture was pretty much total that year.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentI have trouble believing vast numbers of
(#214401)ordinary American conservatives view endless deficits, economic stagnation, overpopulated prisons, and funding death squads as good things in & of themselves. Some of them might be persuaded those are costs of doing business of nobler goals.
Even if you are right, the politic way to frame the issue is to drumbeat the media into understanding one important lesson of the Iraq War and the financial crisis: conservatism has unintended consequences too.
Specifically laissez-faire policies may sound good in principle, but when "deregulation" is put into practice here, with all of the favoritism, lobbying, earmarks & carveouts plus pure regulatory capture that make up the real world of US government policy, the result is damn near the opposite of the libertarian, laissez-faire ideal. Rather than restoring sanity, proper incentives & price signals to social & fiscal policy, deregulation in the US has badly distorted market realities, accentuating rather than reducing the size & eventual fallout of the biggest market bubble since 1929.
Don't believe everything you think.
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parent"ordinary American conservatives"
(#214417)Not that your point isn't correct, Jordan, but the bigger problem is that "vast numbers of ordinary American conservatives" have, as far as their involvement with political issues is concerned, shut themselves off into a self-selected cocoon/echo-chamber/isolation tank of willful ignorance/disinterest: aided and abetted by a lazy and/or compliant media (when not actually pandering to right-wing simplicities), and the entire PR apparatus of one of this country's two major political parties.
" ...endless deficits, economic stagnation, overpopulated prisons, and funding death squads..."? Each of these issues has been been brought up over the past several years, and generally been negated, dismissed or ignored by RW Media, and their partisan tools: and the "conservative" public have been convinced/convinced themselves that they are all either trivial, justified, or Someone Else's Fault (usually a strawman caricature of "Libruls").
Or, more usually, dismissed in favor of overheated agitprop about the "vastly more important" "social" issues - i.e. prejudices stoked by political tribalism and sex-obsessed religiosity.
It's not so much, , IMO, that they approve of the abuses and dysfunctions you outline: it's just that they have been told by their chosen opinion-molders that they shouldn't care. And so they don't.
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parentI'll see if I can find it
(#214421)but I saw a very interesting chart that showed the use of the terms "Debt" and "Deficit" in major newspapers (going back to the early 90s as I recall). It spiked whenever a Democrat proposed policies, but was quite subdued when Republicans proposed policies.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentin the blogosphere, it was worse, IIRC
(#214425)Around 2004 or 05 , I recall, it was pretty much the CW on the starboard side that "Deficit Concern" could basically be dismissed as just so much "liberal carping" - of a piece with their blinkered-lack-of-realization about how wonderfully things were going in Iraq - and reading a nontrivial number of blogposts about how the US economy just had so much strength and so much growth potential* structurally built into it, that the Bush-era deficits were a trivial concern (the costs of Iraq and Afghanistan, being "off the books" didn't exist, of course). Raising cavils about the deficits was considered to be the province only of the Shrill Left (and motivated, it was broadly hinted. mainly by Bush Derangement Syndrome and America-hatred). Naturally, now that there is a Democratic Administration, Deficits Matter.
*said strength and potential releasable ONLY at the lowest levels of personal-income-taxation.
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parentYeah
(#214451)I don't know which specific event(s) you're refering to but I've run into the same thing myself.
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parentIt fits the narrative
(#214436)Democrats are tax and spenders and Republicans are for fiscal responsibility. The track record doesn't really matter.
Democratic policies increase the deficit. Republican policies decrease it. This is a tautology and matters not whether or not an examining of the facts bear that out. Examination of a hypothesis consists of a lot of reading and critical thinking, and who has time for that these days? It is much easier to just repeat a bumper sticker slogan ad nauseam.
Any deficit talk was necessarily "liberal carping" because liberals, by definition, don't care about the deficit.
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says. -- Antonin Scalia
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parentThat's nice.
(#214411)It's been 30 years now. Reagan started this business by getting caught selling guns to one set of terrorists in order to fund another set of terrorists. Meanwhile, Ollie North and Gordon Liddy are both well-funded right wing media figures.
Yes, of course the bad outcomes are either the point or irrelevant. It's far more productive to ask why such terrible results are so acceptable.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentIf by "far more productive" you mean
(#214431)"hasn't accomplished a single damn thing since 1980," I can see your point.
Don't believe everything you think.
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parentHuh?
(#214432)If there's one thing which has baffled me during my adult lifetime, it's our liberal devotion to taking conservatives' policy prescriptions at face value. We spend so much effort calmly and patiently explaining, over and over, the historical failures, the likely results, and the inevitable repeat.
Then we cry into our beers about how conservatives always seem to vote against their interests.
Howzabout we stop being such condescending jerkwads and accept that it's been 30 years, and they're voting their interests -- and will continue to do so until they're persuaded not to.
If some guy wants gay people to not get married more than he wants his kid to get health care, then that's his right. But explaining patiently that that's what he's getting is pointless. He knows that, or he's chosen not to. The much better approach, which actually does have some kind of possibility of persuasion (or at least deactivation), is to ask him why he has such crazy values.
Remember, Ollie North is a folk hero. Until you understand that conservatives can apparently view a man who sold guns to Muslim terrorists to raise money to fund nun-raping Christian terrorists as a hero, you won't understand conservatives or conservatism.
One of the things I liked about BG was his honesty. He had people he wanted to help and people he wanted to hurt, and everything else was pretty much irrelevant.
Conservatism is malign. Its adherents* are not confused about this; they are either endorsing of it or indifferent. Because they are either sadistic or indifferent in response to the suffering of those injured.
*I'm speaking of course of the people who actually bother to think about this stuff, maybe 15% of the American population.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentWhy speak of BG
(#214491)In the past tense? Did I miss something?
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
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parentBrain fart.
(#214493)He's been gone a while, but of course he's likely to return.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentI'm not denying there are malign values
(#214457)and individuals who knowingly support malign values over on the conservative side.
I just think it's ridiculous that you believe you are going to make any political progress by going "why are you people so crazy?" It's like expecting sleepwalkers to obey traffic signs.
Don't believe everything you think.
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parentI guess my real question is...
(#214467)...how are we ever going to make any political progress by fabricating either intent or outcomes?
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentWell, persuasion is about tactics, not content.
(#214461)The content will be "why are y'all so crazy?" The persuasive tack will be discussions of fear and empathy.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentWell, good luck with that.
(#214466)I'm gonna stick with "conservatism has unintended consequences."
Don't believe everything you think.
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parentYou can do that,
(#214469)because you don't think it's a false statement.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentDoesn't matter.
(#214470)If people's actions contradict their words, it's *their* problem. I don't need to speculate whether they're lying, deluded, stupid, or simply wrong. All I need to do is point out the conflict.
It's the MLK strategy. The key to Dr. King's success is that he pointed out, simply and eloquently, the large gap between the promise of the Declaration of Independence and the reality of life in the 1960s. He didn't cast himself as an enemy of white America, the way the Panthers & Nation of Islam folks did. All he did was to make the American public acknowledge that its policies contradicted its most cherished values.
So the law of unintended consequences; the single greatest idea borne of the Reagan Revolution. Borrowed from MBA programs, it became a magic bullet against any social spending whatsoever. Well, clear away the smoke & mirrors of propaganda and you realize that all policies have unintended consequences...even doing nothing. Conservatism can backfire. Conservatism can create perverse incentives, just like entitlement programs. Now's the time to turn conservatism's rhetoric against itself, so that we can move the public discourse back from the precipice of almost nihilistic laissez-fairism and discuss the actual limits of both gov't policy *and* private enterprise.
Don't believe everything you think.
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parentThat would work,
(#214471)if poverty, the devaluation of work, and corruption were not the desired results of conservative voters.
My thesis is pretty straightforward -- too many people in the US are on the conservative craplist. If general prosperity will lift all boats, our conservative brethren want none of it.
To put it another way, after being the first President to preside over a net job loss since Hoover and allowing 90% of all Americans killed by terror under his watch, then allowing bin Laden to get away because he was too busy invading the wrong country . . . Bush 43 was renominated in 2004 by acclamation without a primary challenger.
Bush 41, with a far superior economic, security, and foreign policy record, faced first a credible primary challenge, then a conservative third party organization.
Fundamentally, we'll find out. Obama agrees with you, it's fairly clear. But I'm gonna hold that it's when he agrees with me that he'll actually get some stuff done. It wasn't until he finally figured out that the GOP was hurting the country for the sake of doing so that he got HCR passed, and his coddling of that institution is responsible for the 10% unemployment we're currently facing.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentThe point is to get them to acknowledge the truth.
(#214478)It's pure Socratic method. You consider yourself conservative, yes? Ok, what do you mean by that? Limited government? And why? Because government policies always have unintended consequences? Cool! Now let me ask you this: the financial crisis, the Great Repression...was that an intended consequence of conservative policies? If the answer is a) Yes! then the response is you are not conservative, you're an anticapital extremist. If the answer is b) No way! then the response is Bush era policies were not conservative.
In other words, if you're right that conservatives' real motives are malign, getting them to publicly admit same would do a world of good.
This, by the way, is what Obama has done with HCR. He gave Congressional Republicans all the rope in the world to hang themselves with. I'm on the record as predicting the noose will draw tight come November.
Don't believe everything you think.
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parentWrong answer
(#214480)The answer is that the financial crisis and the Great [D]epression were the result of the librul Democrat congress in 2007-2008 and Smoot-Hawley, respectively. That's the answer you get.
Again, people rationalize backwards starting from an incorrect assumption. And Logic 101 states that when you start from a false premise, you can prove anything. I find the best way to combat such misinformation is to ask people to actually give evidence. Usually they can't. When they can, I'll meet them half way by saying "Ok, so that may be the case. I'll admit you may be right if you admit I may be right." That usually gets them off their horse that everything that is bad is the fault of Party X and everything that is good is because of Party Y.
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says. -- Antonin Scalia
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parentBack to logic 101!
(#214485)Anything follows from a contradiction -- not a merely false premise.
A man must be orthodox upon most things, or he will never even have time to preach his own heresy.
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parentIf I recall correctly
(#214487)The truth table looks like this (for P,Q, and the RHS being If P, Then Q):
T->T = T
T->F = F
F->T = T
F->F = T
So if you start with a false premise...etc.
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says. -- Antonin Scalia
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parentThey can blame Democrats all they want, the point is
(#214483)almost nobody (except Timmy) can say with a straight face that the regulatory system is working as intended. Even the Tea Partiers admit that, even if there's a mysterious 8-year hole in their picture of how the government went wrong. Democrats did promote those policies. Like I said before, the Reaganites won...extreme hands-off Fed policy, regulatory capture and a whistle-past-the-graveyard approach to massive, systematic financial fraud are all direct results of that philosophy. Desi will say regulatory capture is what conservatives are voting for...I deny that. This is a teachable moment in fiscal policy.
The policies need to change, and the philosophy behind the policies needs reexamining...it doesn't matter whether there's a D or R behind the policies.
Don't believe everything you think.
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parentI don't necessarily disagree with the Reagan model
(#214484)We should be very careful in any sort of private business regulations as they do have unintended consequences. The end game of any regulation is eliminate externalities wherever and whenever they occur. The easiest and most direct way of doing this is high taxes. That's essentially the Scandinavian model -- low regulation, high taxes.
We Americans are highly tax averse, so we pile on the regulations to have low taxes. And, of course, our tax code is full of loopholes and deductions so that the there is significant savings in "tax studies" and the like so that the very resourceful don't end up paying much, if any, federal income taxes.
This is where I support Wyden-Gregg. We should eliminate pretty much everything you can itemize for and expand the standard deduction. In terms of business taxes, a simple "you owe X% of your profit to the government" works quite well.
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says. -- Antonin Scalia
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parentArgh!
(#214488)Talk about internalizing the enemy's frame.
No! Not every market has many buyers and many sellers and identical products and perfect information and zero risk!
In fact . . . no market has that combination, and only a few really approach it.
Regulation is a little about externalities, but even markets with few externalities need to be regulated extensively for protection against fraud and inappropriate risk management. And many markets for very important things (information, water, sewage, electricity) drift toward monopoly and require an entirely different paradigm.
There is an entire discipline of economics which is not covered by the first six weeks of Econ 101, not that you'd know it to look at our public face.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentWhose enemies?
(#214497)Certainly not mine. I'm not a Democrat, nor a Republican, nor a Libertarian. I'm just me.
True.
Fraud? That's a light regulation. No problem there. Inappropriate risk management? Depends on what that means. I'd think we can just make taxes high enough on certain financial items that make such risk-taking behavior unprofitable even in the short term.
Even if that isn't doable, I'd prefer 25% unemployment and mass hysteria to an explicit guarantee for some banks and an implicit guarantee to others. In other words, if we can't get some sort of reform package through Congress that will provide for orderly receivership and liquidation of non-backed institutions (those not backed by the FDIC, NCUA, etc.), then I'll take the complete collapse of our financial system over another taxpayer-funded rescue of the system.
Am I for zero regulation? No. I'm for simple regulation and high taxes on the back-end to fix any externalities. The law works best as a bludgeon, not a scalpel, and social engineering has no business in our tax code.
Absolutely.
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says. -- Antonin Scalia
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parent"Simple regulation"
(#214499)Let's just say that the Chileans are in favor of complex regulation, as versus the Haitians and leave it at that.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentYup
(#214341)The thing is, I identify with the older school Republicans like Lugar, Graham, McCain, Kemp and so forth because they really are closer to Reagan than the Hannitys and others who say they are Reagan conservatives. It's why I'm closer to independent than Republican. But to answer Andrew, I disagree with over two-thirds of the Democratic platform, so there's no place for me there.
If you don't have any fresh ideas, then you use stale tactics to scare the voters.--Barack Obama, 2008
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parentHeh.
(#214514)The funny thing about this is that it just isn't remotely true; BD is almost certainly in agreement with 2/3rds of the Dem Party platform.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentAhh, but you're confused Mr. Bird
(#214396)The Republicans actually try to implement their party platform. The Democrats create it to throw a bone to their progressive supporters and then completely ignore it when the time comes.
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says. -- Antonin Scalia
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parentHere's my tax platform
(#214316)Institute a 15% VAT (with perhaps some exemptions for food and rent below a certain threshhold.)
Have this replace the payroll tax.
If you make less than around $50K, you don't even have to file taxes. What you pay in VAT will take care of you.
Then 2 brackets... maybe 15% on income from $50-250K, and 25% on income from $250K upwards. And way less exemptions... ditch the mortgage interest, for one.
Simple, promotes saving and investment, far more efficient than the current regime, a bit more progressive, and -- this is a wild guess -- probably revenue-neutral or a bit better.
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
"promotes saving and investment"`
(#214371)I don't know how you can promote investment more aggressively than a zero interest rate.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentHave this replace the payroll tax
(#214342)Now that would cover both contributions?
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
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parent/signed in outline. -nt-
(#214337).
Don't believe everything you think.
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parentYes
(#214317)Although I'd hate to pay a rate higher than the Canadian G&S tax.
If you don't have any fresh ideas, then you use stale tactics to scare the voters.--Barack Obama, 2008
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parentTime poorly spent
(#214315)1. Protect the Constitution. First, since you can't amend the Constitution through legislation, the concept is foolish. The better effort is to make Congress and the Executive subject to "the Law" (no carve-outs) through a Constitutional Amendment.
2. With respect to "cap and trade", all you have to do is see how it is working out in Europe.
3. The mess in California has little to do with tax increases but alot to do with everything else. If you want to constrain the growth of government, constrain the growth of government, er limit its parameters.
4. If I remember correctly, the number of "tax cheats" (and related passes on cheating) was some what staggering. Take a hatchet to the "tax code" not a scapel.
5. Elect congressional critters, who prefer their home states to D.C.
6. See #5.
7. Since none to the objectives set forth by the Obama Admin have been met with the current legislation, hit the "reset" button.
8. Coal works for me, especially western coal, fine with the rest.
9. "Stop the Pork", what is "pork"?
10. See #5.
I would take two actions, first repeal the XVII Amendment and pass a constitutional amendment which makes the Congress and the Executive subject to all the laws of the land.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
9. Sarcasm?
(#214326)...
Why not argue against forcing US citizens to buy Muslimic ray guns Scalia et al? Don't we all want Britain to be about British?
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parentWell except for the last sentence, yes. nt
(#214343).
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
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parentWhen only the generalities make sense
(#214307)And the particulars are all poorly thought-out or outright stupid, then it's safe to say that the movement has no point except anger.
Indeed, as I've mentioned elsewhere, a lot of Tea Partiers seem willfully unaware of a whole lot of basic facts. You have people who angry about layabouts on welfare who have a genuinely hard time accepting all of the particulars of the 1996 Welfare Reform, for example. Ditto with people who refuse to believe that BHO has not simply ported the NHS or Canadian Medicare into the U.S. And there's an *incredible* amount of cognitive dissonance with BHO's commitment to beating the Taliban and killing terrorists in Waziristan.
What you have are people who seem to almost be addicted to anger and outrage. I honestly can't see any other reason for what amounts to willful ignorance.
Have you ever thought about just biting the bullet and becoming a conservative Democrat?
Americans typically don't hold the dispossessed in high regard
(#214349)I saw a comment of yours, I believe, about the depth of the rot with regards to the financial system and its (lack of) regulation.
Now I'm thinking that the rot is deeper than you've considered. ie It's so deep that it has become impossible to enunciate a coherent legislative plan of action within the traditional framework of political discourse. When attempted, as here, the result is necessarily flawed and unsatisfactory.
It's easy to dismiss the Tea Party people (or white working class) as racist, sexist, ill informed etc. (I have to admit 'addicted to anger' is a new one for me.) If you want, you can always handle any group of people like this. But I think their anger is legitimate. They are the dispossessed. And from reading the Palestinian discussions here, I know that Americans typically don't hold the dispossessed in high regard. They probably don't hold themselves in high regard! They are easy pickings for radical mass movements on the left or more likely, on the right.
from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away - Matthew 25/29
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parent"They are the dispossessed"
(#214373)If there's one thing the average Teabagger is, it's thoroughly "possessed." Their rage comes from the idea that someone else might get a bite at the apple, not that they haven't already eaten most of it.
90% of African-Americans vote Dem on a general ballot; no other group is remotely that partisan. We elected a black President, and the GOP base completely lost their marbles. You can put a lot of epicycles on your model, but there's a far easier explanation that has plenty of room for both of these facts -- the conservative base of the Republican Party is profoundly racist, and African-Americans are aware of this fact.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentUm, I don't think so
(#214351)if you've looked at the demographics, they're wealthier and better educated than the population at large. They are not dispossessed, they're just afraid of losing the advantages they already have.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentI don't know about the demographics
(#214354)I don't know about the demographics of the Tea Party people. As far as I can make out, this is essentially an astroturf organization for the Republican party and is not interesting to me. I'm talking about the working class, particularly the white working class, and this group has been shafted or left behind. The United States has experienced economic growth in the past 30 years but the income for this group has remained stagnant. (Black women of the working class have fared better.) Maybe you can argue that income growth is unnecessary when you can now benefit from technological innovations like Twitter and so on, but I'm not convinced. Americans used to produce the sort of goods that stock the shelves of Wallmart. No longer.
There are some good lectures on youtube by high-class US academician Elizabeth Warren if you want further info.
from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away - Matthew 25/29
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parentThe tea party is graded on a curve
(#214357)Conservatives aren't supposed to be out in the streets demonstrating -- that's what lefties do! The media prefers the man bites dog story, even when they're not Fox with their rooting interest.
That's how the biggest anti-war protests of 2003 could be approximately ten times the size of the biggest tea party protests of 2009 and 2010, yet the tea partiers get about 10 times the amount of sustained media coverage. I can't remember all these breathless polls asking, 'who are the anti-war protesters?' back in 2003. People just didn't care.
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
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parentOh, people cared.
(#214374)The Traditional Media did a fairly thorough blackout of coverage. That experience, of having my and a million of my colleagues' work simply erased, was seared into my consciousness.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentClass identity and class warfare are dead
(#214355)killed by the national security state and 24x7 propaganda (Fox is only the most blatant example). The working classes will blame communists, they'll blame socialists, they'll blame liberals, they'll blame immigrants, but they won't blame the financial and political elites that keep them down. In fact they'll hate anyone trying to help them, calling them "condescending".
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentThis is more or less what
(#214359)This is more or less what I'm talking about. But we also have the effort to dismiss them as politically incorrect yahoos and their anger as symptomatic of some baseless pathology.
I was surprised to see how vague and bureaucratic the proposals of this contract were - from a movement excoriated over and over again as populist. And also how lukewarm was their support among even the Tea Party people. Some items barely managed to garner 50%. More evidence how there seems to be an inability to address or even identify the problems of this class.
from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away - Matthew 25/29
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parentTheir problems are thoroughly identified.
(#214376)They are just impossible to address.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentHaving your job shipped off to China?
(#214383)Having your job shipped off to China? Forced to get a second or third job to keep the wolves from the door? Wife forced to do the same? I've yet to see any of that mentioned anywhere. And if it's not talked about, it is indeed impossible to remedy.
from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away - Matthew 25/29
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parentOh, is that why they're against HCR?
(#214385)I was wondering.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentno account bitches
(#214387)This opposition undoubtedly has some very unsavoury roots, for example, 'my tax dollars must not pay for the medical care of some African & Mexican no account bitches whelping litter after litter of bastard spawn.'
But more to my point is that a good part of the opposition, fanned explicitly by incendiary media celebrities, stems from the Punch and Judy, red state/blue state opposition that channels all discussion into very narrow and constrained focus. This paradigm is failing them just as it fails the rest of the nation. That was the point I was trying to put across in my original comment in this thread.
from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away - Matthew 25/29
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parentI agree completely,
(#214412)that the paradigm is failing them terribly. I disagree that they care. The average Teabagger simply cares more about denying black people benefits than their kid going to college. It's grossly patronizing to claim that we know better than them what their three decades of preferred policy outcomes are.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentThe paradigm is also failing you
(#214455)The paradigm is also failing you. I hate to bring polling data into any discussion but it shows that up to 90% of the public believes that the nation is on the wrong track with its economy, and all you want to talk about is teabagger racism, or mischievously ascribe the plight of the working class to their own preferred policy outcomes. Just take the time to read the points of Bird Dog's contract again. We just can't talk about preferred policy when so much is left 'off the table.'
from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away - Matthew 25/29
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parentOkay, this is boring.
(#214462)If you're gonna make up stuff about what I say, then why are you pretending this is a conversation? I'll email you the password on my account, and you can post whatever you'd like me to say, and delete all my posts on the economy and my repeatedly expressed policy preferences.
My entire purpose in dismissing the Teabaggers as crazy people is to allow the grownups to conduct rational policy discussions without spending all their time debunking zombie lies.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentdelete your posts
(#214472)1) Is it really true I could delete your posts if I had your password?
2) Tea Party people are a side show. I really can't understand how people can get so exercised about them, as though they set the terms of 'national debate'. The crazies I worry about are those advocating and conducting a permanent war against Islam. They are not so easily dismissed either, and are instead fawned over as rational grownups by people who should know better.
from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away - Matthew 25/29
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parentNope
(#214473)you'd need my password to do that.
You can call the teabaggers a sideshow, but the fact is that the media reports on issues using the assumption that they're "real" Americans as opposed to anyone who's the slightest bit liberal, who aren't "real" Americans. The antiwar protests were far larger than the teabag rallies, but got a fraction of the coverage. If you don't keep pushing back against it, you'll be forever marginalized.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentI have to admit
(#214503)I have to admit I have a bit of a conspiratorial take on this. I think that those pulling the strings of the Tea Party and those behind the media are essentially the same people or are at least promoting the same business agenda. Some 3 million jobs shipped off to China since the turn of the century, and neither the Tea Party (whose major concern is supposedly the economy) nor the media (who need non-Tiger Wood stories from time to time) seem interested.
I've said before the anger behind the phenomenon is real, and can be put to positive use. Focussing on the racism is simply playing into the hands of the powers that be and nothing good will come of it.
from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away - Matthew 25/29
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parentSure, and that's a good way to forge a real agenda.
(#214513)But there's no way the Teabagger Right is reachable by a party capable of nominating a black man to President. Not for years, not without both drugs and therapy.
"How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?"
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentI can see them now smirking, hand held over groin
(#214609)You are probably right about the Teabagger right being unreachable. But as I said, the anger goes far beyond this group and you are not going to reach any of this broader group with politically correct finger pointing.
In fact I can see them now smirking, hand held over groin, tip of thumb touching top knuckle of fore-finger, flicking their wrist up and down.
from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away - Matthew 25/29
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parentHank, I think you are...
(#214477)...looking at news coverage wrong. Well, not just you, everyone here really. The anti-war rallies lacked the 'new' needed to make them newsworthy. Regardless of political leanings, who here could not have set their watch to the predictability of anti-war protests? It's like asking an editor to run "The Sun Will Come Up Tomorrow!" above the fold. OTOH, a bunch of old angry white guys gathered in one place (the FORVM excepted of course)only happens during World Wars so it has the new for newsworthy
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parentNah, it's synthetic
(#214504)most of the media didn't pick it up until after Fox was blasting it for months.
As far as angry old white guys, I'll cop to being a white guy.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentI'm not old yet
(#214605)But like Meat Loaf said, two out of three ain't bad.
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says. -- Antonin Scalia
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parentThe Tea Parties are synthetic
(#214361)just another way to channel the real (and justified) anger of the working classes. Orwell had nothing on these guys.
The Tea Party movement isn't excoriated for being populist, it's excoriated for being hypocritical and selfish. It's a media creation designed to serve the GOP, not challenge it. They might yet prove to be a challenge to the GOP, but I haven't seen any evidence of that yet.
I think what you're missing is that despite the fact that they claim economic issues as their main complaints, they appear to be cultural complaints as far as I can see.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentI basically agree with you
(#214367)I basically agree with you, but I want to point out that the Tea Party people are more than just a movement to channel support to the Republicans. The message they are struggling to express can also be found elsewhere. Take this fellow, Stock, who flew his plane into a taxation centre a little while back. He shared his anger with much of Tea Party, although from a Leftish perspective. And he had hundreds of Facebook friends before his site was shut down. He is dismissed as a lunatic and the nature of his grievances, economic in each case, are ignored. I think this movement has exposed a deep faultline that traditional political discourse is unable to address and not prepared to talk about in a serious way.
from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away - Matthew 25/29
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parentStack was an idiot
(#214369)one of the people who think they can cut every corner on their taxes (and even avoid paying them) and not get in trouble for it. I used to work at a CPA firm, I've seen plenty of people like that. Just look at the situation - he flew his own private plane into an IRS building. How deprived do you think this guy was? More likely he was pissed off because he got caught cheating on his taxes. He's not one of the working class who's getting screwed, just another "Randian superman" who thinks the laws don't apply to him.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentnot much substance
(#214375)There's really not much substance to that CBS link if you read it carefully. But I'm not qualified or inclined to argue about the fine points of the tax code.
I don't think Randian is the correct term. As I understand, Stack was attacking Obama from the Left on public health insurance.
from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away - Matthew 25/29
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parentHe wasn't attacking Obama., he was attacking the IRS
(#214378)read his suicide note, it's an endless litany about how he kept challenging tax laws and losing. FYI, I own my own small business doing work very similar to his (as an independent consultant), and it's really quite simple to avoid problems with the IRS unless you try to cut every corner and avoid paying taxes. He was in deep trouble long before Obama was elected, and through his own doing.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentI brought up Stack to demonstrate
(#214386)I brought up Stack to demonstrate that the anger we've been discussing is not limited to the Tea Party people. I think it's pretty clear that Stack would have been uncomfortable among most of the Tea Party people. It's hard to imagine the Tea Party, or any other group that concerns itself with drumming up votes for the Republican party, in agreement with the following:
Why is it that a handful of thugs and plunderers can commit unthinkable atrocities (and in the case of the GM executives, for scores of years) and when it's time for their gravy train to crash under the weight of their gluttony and overwhelming stupidity, the force of the full federal government has no difficulty coming to their aid within days if not hours? Yet at the same time, the joke we call the American medical system, including the drug and insurance companies, are murdering tens of thousands of people a year and stealing from the corpses and victims they cripple, and this country's leaders don't see this as important as bailing out a few of their vile, rich cronies. Yet, the political "representatives" (thieves, liars, and self-serving scumbags is far more accurate) have endless time to sit around for year after year and debate the state of the "terrible health care problem". It's clear they see no crisis as long as the dead people don't get in the way of their corporate profits rolling in.
Overwrought, maybe, but it is a suicide note, and in case you still doubt my point about his distance from the Tea Partiers, you can search yourself for Stack's views on the 'monsters of organized religion'.
Incidentally, do those who own private planes in the US typically pay income taxes? My impression was that there were any number of tax dodges the wealthy could take advantage of to prevent such a thing from happening.
from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away - Matthew 25/29
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parentAs HankP says,
(#214377)this is a guy who owned his own private plane. His problem wasn't that he was oppressed; it was that there was no room in his life for people who were not him to have any power. And others much like him endorsed his murder of a decent public servant.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentNo, he was just a tax cheat
(#214381)no need to project anything else onto him.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentWell, no.
(#214382)He managed to persuade himself that he was allowed to kill people. That's a different sort of person than a common thief.
"Assent, and you are sane."
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parentSorry. He was a crazy tax cheat. nt
(#214384).
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentShorter Tea Party
(#214332)I blame it all on the Internet
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parentSo?
(#214350)Who the hell ever pulls for the guy they think will screw them? There's plenty to criticize the tea partiers about, but the idea that they look out for their own interests doesn't make them unique.
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parent*raises hand*
(#214395)I'd happily vote for someone to screw me over. I've done so on several occasions. For one, I voted for Michael Badnarik in 2004 when I was a broke college student.
HCR might actually be a net-negative for me, but I still support it at a basic level.
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says. -- Antonin Scalia
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parentwhat's unique about the tea partiers
(#214356)is that they espouse simple-minded libertarian principles, yet endorse completely unprincipled exceptions that just happen to benefit them.
i.e they hate the very idea of government insurance ... except in those cases where they're already covered.
They don't bother in the slightest to mask their pushy and transparent "F-you, I got mine" and are therefore uniquely insulting.
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parentYou're not convincing me.
(#214363)Hank is more on point below, and pretty much wraps up my problem with the Tea Partiers.
Change "F-you, I got mine" to "F-you, I paid for mine" which is how they see things.
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parentBut that's what's so irritating
(#214404)When someone says, "I spent my whole life paying into Medicare and Medicaid and I see it all going to Mexicans," it seems like a somewhat reasonable complaint that can be addressed by explaining exactly how few of one's tax dollars go to paying for emergency room visits by illegals as compared to Predator drones to kill terrorists in Waziristan. When someone complains about people on welfare squeezing out babies so that they never have to work and remain on the government teat, it seems like you could correct this person by explaining that it's actually pretty difficult to get on welfare and stay on welfare. And when someone complains about government takeover of health care, you would think that explaining that no, this is an expansion of Medicare and Medicaid and subsidizing of people's insurance might help.
But (at least in my experience) it doesn't. I'm willing to be sympathetic to "I'm not getting back what I put into the system," but not when that sentiment is built on a towering superstructure of willful ignorance.
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parent'how they see things'
(#214389)"F-you, I paid for mine" doesn't really explain the socialism/communism/tyranny angle.
Whereas 'braindead libertarian generalizations w. exceptions solely that benefit them', seems more accurate to me.
But that's enough Tea party sociology for me. I think I've spit on them enough for the spring.
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parentDude
(#214353)taxes have been cut, but they claim Obama raised taxes. Obama's tried to negotiate with Republicans, they compare him to Hitler. He works on reforming health insurance, they call him a communist. When you look at the polling, they're unhappy with government spending but don't want 95% of government cut (especially SS and Medicare, which many of them are on). They're complaining about stuff that they never complained about under GOP government.
Why exactly should anyone take them seriously?
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentC'mon
(#214365)You put up a picture that says 'ME'. That they're putting their own interests first is the one thing that makes them normal. I acknowledge and generally agree with the issues you have with the Tea Partiers, but that picture accurately describes all PACs, lobbyists and political parties.
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parentIf you had looked at the image info
(#214368)you'll see that I labeled the picture "universal protester", so point taken as far as the public visibility part of it is concerned. But the extreme selfishness of the teabaggers goes beyond what we've seen in most protests. Anti-war protesters are against anyone going to war, not just themselves (especially in 2003 since there was a volunteer army and no draft). Civil rights protesters wanted civil rights for all, not just themselves. But these guys are all me, me, me. I know it's a joke to say "keep your government hands off my Medicare", but I keep hearing paraphrases of that statement in interviews with tea party members.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentOK, Bird Dog: we get the point
(#214296)Seriously.
And thanks for the succinct nutshell analysis of the fundamental problem with the "Tea Party" "movement":
Really, who could seriously be "against" such principles? I'll sign on to those, gladly. But as usual in American politics, once one moves away from the generalities (might as well be "Mom, apple pie and baseball"), and into the specifics of what actual policies/programs/priorities the government should/shouldn't enact, one isn't left with a lot of popular stuff. Other, of course, than the usual "No Taxes" nonsense; but that's pretty much a given for any "populist" movement in this country.
I don't think you know...
(#214297)...about the actual range of populist politics.
http://www.populist.com/about.html
I consider myself a progressive populist and side with some of our posters regarding mental condition of the TeaBaggers and that the GOP is a criminal enterprise.
Me: We! -- Ali
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parentHence my quotes around "populist"
(#214302)Most of the sentiments that I have seen displayed at most of the Tea Party rallies - once you get past the "no taxes/no spending" boilerplate - seems to be to little more than a toxic sludge of nativism, paranoia, gun-nuttery, prejudice, boogeyman-mongering and vile personal antipathy towards Barack Obama. Stirred up by an irresponsible media for its sensationalism value. Actual proposals or policies that might be "populist" - i.e. actually do some good for, y'know, the people seem rather thin on the ground.
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parentWell
(#214295)you may be dropping the R from RINO soon because I don't see any way that this doesn't become the bulk of the GOP platform in future elections. They already have tax cuts as the single non-negotiable characteristic defining "Republican" (you may disagree but I challenge you to find a single Republican who has called for tax increases and not suffered severely for it.)
Like I've said before, the tea partiers seem to be saying "cut everything in government except for the things that directly affect me". They'll never be content because their hot button issues add up to a few percent of the budget.
I blame it all on the Internet
Gov't run healthcare
(#214289)the phrase "government-run health care" is brainless bumper sticker talk.
Government run healthcare would be the Veterans Administration hospitals. Are the Tea Partiers really against the VA?
Somehow, I don't think so....
(good diary, btw -apologies for not having something more substantive to say.)
Based on their intent of that phrase
(#214344)They want to get rid of the VA, Medicare, Medicaid, the Indian Health Service, and SCHIP. But since everyone knows when a teabagger says "government-run" he also means no federal regulations on health care as well (since the current bill is nothing but that).
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says. -- Antonin Scalia
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parent