Obama dishonest in denying his dishonest 100-year war statements
Jake Tapper has a pretty good recitation of the facts:
● Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., has suggested he would be fine with an indefinite US troop presence in Iraq for 100 years or more "as long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed" -- not a continued war for that long, but for a US troop presence there, the way the US continues to have troops in Japan more than 50 years after the end of World War II. Watch McCain make this comment HERE.● Generally when Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois, has hit McCain for this remark, he has been accurate in his description.
● There have been at least three times when Obama has twisted what McCain said to portray McCain as advocating war in Iraq for 100 years or more: As recently as the end of March in Lancaster, Penn., Obama said, "you know, John McCain wants to continue a war in Iraq perhaps as long as 100 years." At the Cleveland, Ohio, presidential debate, Obama said the U.S. is "bogged down in a war that John McCain now suggests might go on for another 100 years." In Houston, Texas, on February 19, Obama said that McCain "says that he is willing to send our troops into another 100 years of war in Iraq."
● Yesterday on MSNBC, Obama senior strategist David Axelrod said Obama "is not saying that Sen. McCain said we'd be at war for 100 years." I suppose that depends on what the meeting of the word "is" is. [We can pull up the quotes on YouTube.]
● Today on TODAY, Obama was asked by Meredith Vieira if he's willing to admit that he has distorted McCain's statements. Obama said: "No. That's not accurate, Meredith. We can pull up the quotes on Youtube. What John McCain was saying was, that he was happy to have a potential long-term occupation in Iraq. Happy may be overstating it -- he is willing to have a long-term occupation of Iraq, as long as 100 years, in fact he said 10,000 years, however long it took."
● It is accurate to say that Obama has in the past distorted McCain's comments. Watch a Republican Youtube video that shows Obama's words from today and from the past HERE
● It is a matter of opinion to say that voters are "tired of distortion, name-calling, and sound bite solutions to complicated problems." But it is accurate to say that Obama wrote that opinion in his book "The Audacity of Hope," and that he is violating his own stated aspirations. (Audacious indeed.) Because not only has he distorted what McCain said, he is not being honest about having made those distortions.
Why is Obama keeping up this charade? Whatever happened to the "new kind of politics" that Obama pledged? Why is Obama seemingly unable to climb down from these untruths and stop these distortions? Why is he staying the course? As I see it, Obama's campaign is more about the Opacity of Truth, not the Audacity of Hope. I know there are some here who are still having trouble believing that Obama was being dishonest about his 100-year war comments, so I'll add some additional links. Let's go to Frank Rich:
Really, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton should be ashamed of themselves for libeling John McCain. As a growing chorus reiterates, their refrains that Mr. McCain is "willing to send our troops into another 100 years of war in Iraq" (as Mr. Obama said) or "willing to keep this war going for 100 years" (per Mrs. Clinton) are flat-out wrong.What Mr. McCain actually said in a New Hampshire town-hall meeting was that he could imagine a 100-year-long American role in Iraq like our long-term presence in South Korea and Japan, where "Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed." See for yourself on YouTube.
Rich goes on to explain that there are plenty more honest ways to take McCain to task. Wouldn't that be nice.
Then there's factcheck.org:
The Democratic National Committee proposes to spend unlimited amounts of money to "tell the real story" about John McCain before Republicans can "start smearing" the eventual Democratic nominee. But the line of attack the Democrats outline to their potential donors in an e-mail contains some claims that are false or misleading.● The DNC paints McCain as favoring "endless war" in Iraq. What McCain actually said is that he wouldn't mind a hundred-year troop presence "as long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed."
The DNC is saying similar untruths as Obama has, so I think it's reasonable to conclude that factcheck.org would be similarly critical with what Obama has said. Then there's TIME:
McCain has since said he meant a presence like the one the U.S. maintains in Korea which helps maintain peace though the war ended decades ago. And, clearly, given the transcript, it is what he meant. So is it fair that both Clinton and Obama continue to hit McCain for these comments? Obama was careful today not to say that troops would be at "war" for 100 years, just an occupying force (though in an email entitled "THE NEW POLITICS OF DISTORTION" the RNC was quick to point out that as recently as Saturday Obama did use the combat phrasing). Obama defended his remarks on the Today Show this morning: "We can pull up the quotes on Youtube," Obama told Meredith Vieira. "What John McCain was saying was, that he was happy to have a potential long-term occupation in Iraq. Happy may be overstating it -- he is willing to have a long-term occupation of Iraq, as long as 100 years, in fact he said 10,000 years, however long it took."That’s not entirely accurate either as it would likely come as news to most South Koreans that U.S. troops are occupying their country.
On Monday, Obama said: "And that’s why I’m the one candidate who will offer a real choice in November because I can stand up to John McCain with credibility and say no to a 100-year occupation of Iraq, and no to a third Bush term." This is only slightly better than Obama's "100-year war" schtick, but it remains a full-on distortion. To quote Michael Dobbs:
McCain aide Mark Salter disputes my use of the term "occupation" to describe the U.S. military presence in Korea and Germany and, by extension, what the senator has in mind for Iraq. I think he has a point. An occupation carries a connotation of rule by the occupying power, and lack of full sovereignty on the part of the occupied. The formal U.S. military occupation of Germany ended in 1949, even though U.S. troops remained in the country.
Then there's the above-quoted Michael Dobbs:
A more honest line of attack for the Democrats against McCain would be his support for the 2003 invasion of Iraq, whether or not he has a clear strategy for winning the war, and the feasibility of a long-term occupation of a Muslim country by the United States. Instead of attacking him on these grounds, they have twisted his words, by claiming that he "wants" to fight a 100-year war.
Then there's the Columbia Journalism Review:
Ever since John McCain said at a town hall meeting in January that he could see U.S. troops staying in Iraq for a hundred years, the Democrats have been trying to use the quote to paint the Arizona senator as a dangerous warmonger. And lately, Barack Obama in particular has stepped up his attacks on McCain’s "100 years" notion.But in doing so, Obama is seriously misleading voters—if not outright lying to them—about exactly what McCain said. And some in the press are failing to call him on it.
Here’s McCain’s full quote, in context, from back in January:
Questioner: President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for fifty years…
McCain: Maybe a hundred. Make it one hundred. We’ve been in South Korea, we’ve been in Japan for sixty years. We’ve been in South Korea for fifty years or so. That’d be fine with me as long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed. Then it's fine with me. I would hope it would be fine with you if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where Al Qaeda is training, recruiting, equipping and motivating people every single day.It’s clear from this that McCain isn’t saying he’d support continuing the war for one hundred years, only that it might be necessary to keep troops there that long. That’s a very different thing. As he says, we’ve had troops in South Korea for over fifty years, but few people think that means we’re still fighting the Korean War.
Nevertheless, back in February, Obama said: "We are bogged down in a war that John McCain now suggests might go on for another hundred years."
And, on a separate occasion: "(McCain) says that he is willing to send our troops into another hundred years of war in Iraq."
Then there's the St. Petersburg Times Truth-o-Meter:
The interviews show McCain is not advocating that the war in Iraq continue for a thousand years (or a million). But once combat ends and U.S. casualities dwindle, he expects the United States could have troops in Iraq similar to the presence in South Korea and Germany. That presence could continue for many years.Clinton correctly described the first remark by saying "Sen. McCain said the other day that we might have troops (in Iraq) for 100 years." We gave that a True.
But Obama twisted McCain's words in the Cleveland debate. He said, "We are bogged down in a war that John McCain now suggests might go on for another 100 years."
As we explain above, McCain was referring to a peacetime presence, not the war. So we find Obama's statement False.
Then there's CBS News:
McCain appears to be talking about maintaining a presence in Iraq, not continuing the type of war America is now fighting. He suggests it would be acceptable to "maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world" similar to that in Japan and Korea.
If that doesn't convince entrenched Obamaniacs, then I guess nothing will. I hope all their other delusions are pleasant ones. It would be nice if Obama actually got into an honest debate about Iraq, using the words that McCain has actually said. As it is, dishonesty reigns in the Obama campaign, and I refuse to let this pass unchallenged.
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"I think the vice president misrepresented what the vice president wanted to say."
--Robert Gibbs
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References -

Even admitting everything you claim this pales in comparison to McCain's distortion of Mitt Romney's record on 'timetables' in Iraq.
So there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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)Senator McCain believes it's acceptable for us to have our soldiers remain in Iraq for 100 years, comparing that to our military stationed in Japan and Korea. Well, Iraq is not Japan. Japan was a single, unified country both before and after it declared war on us and then lost that war. We gave humanitarian aid to a defeated enemy and helped it on the way to a complete recovery, and Japan is now a strong ally. Our base there do not keep order among the Japanese, and our soldiers stationed there aren't at risk whenever they walk the streets of Tokyo.
Korea isn't like Iraq either. It is a formerly unified country that was torn in two by war, and we are there to prevent one half from attacking the other. More importantly, I am strongly against using the lives of our soldiers as "tripwires" to be sacrificed if a neighboring country attacks Iraq.
Senator McCain's words show why it is so important for us to have a definite schedule for an orderly withdrawal from Iraq. Because if we don't, there are people that would keep us there forever. And that is not what any American thought, or was told, when President Bush started this war more than five years ago. Etc.
Hey, If Hillary Clinton paid Sean Penn's brother $6 million to write her speeches, will an Obamaphile give me six bucks for this? That will cover two watery beers and a grudging tip at the local watering hole.
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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)he'd be ridiculed all over as a windbag pedant who's over-education makes him feel superior to real Americans, and because of this he's always lecturing to Joe Voter.
Just the way it goes these days.
--Mr. McBarkersons is on Your Side:
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| parent )If so, thx. Every time someone flatters me on a weekday I immediately leave work for home, where my Pandora music stream is issuing its siren call.
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )Now he just needs to take some auctioneering classes so he can fit all that into a five-second soundbite.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )nt
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| parent )----
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )"lebowski has your money, man."
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| parent )that came just when I needed a smile. U Da man.
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )Arguably OT, but it's time for McCain to face the music on this.
Anybody remember Marlon Brando refusing to accept that Oscar "on account of the Indians"?
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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)We should just round up everyone who has at least 1/4 indian ancestry and can claim membership in a recognized tribe and give each and every one of them a million dollars.
Sorry guys, we stole your land. There's nothing we can do about it now. Take your cash in lieu of...other things. No more gambling havens on Indian land, no more special government status for reservations, no more BIA and no more claims on property you say we stole from you way back when. You're all just regular Americans like everyone else, except now you've got a million dollars.
--Guard, protect and cherish your land, for there is no afterlife for a place that started out as Heaven.
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| parent )what's that these days, about 3 euro?
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| parent )Please pass the White-Out. I'm paying Mary Mapes to authenticate it after I'm done.
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )it looks like Japan, and then maybe another 100 years or so."
I don't think greater accuracy is gonna help your candidate out of this hole he dug himself into.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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)start McCain's 100 year occupation starting tomorrow? Bad news today:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2008-04-09-iraq-soldiers_N.htm
--Mr. McBarkersons is on Your Side:
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| parent )to do with the hole McCain dug for himself.
It has everything to do with trying to convince people that somehow Obama has dug a hole, and that somehow is a more important hole than the one that McCain is peering up out of.
--Mr. McBarkersons is on Your Side:
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| parent )are getting killed, and then stay there another hundred years."
Nope, still not very helpful.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )Link
Mucho gusto me llamo Bradley... -B. Nowell
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)I've never seen you take so much interest in the truthfulness of public figures. Would've been really useful back when there was a lot of talk about nuclear strikes from Iraq, and virtually none about COIN.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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)and very influential in the print media world because Columbia has the premier journalism school in the country. Yet they don't mince words in the statement quoted above, essentially calling Obama a liar. Even Hillary retreats when she gets caught telling a whopper; why can't Obama do the same and simply admit he was wrong?
Arguing that a conservative can't criticize Obama for dishonesty unless he/she was equally hard on conservatives in the past really goes nowhere. Many Obama fans, and liberals in general, were totally silent during the prevaricatious Clinton Administration, and some even agreed with HRC's "vast right wing conspiracy" nuttiness. Are those people barred from the discussion by the same logic, simply because they now have a stake in exposing what appears to be a pathological tendency to lie and exaggerate on the part of Obama's opponent?
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )Obama might need to be more precise about the words McCain used, but see my comments above. Even taking McCain dead at his word, it is impossible to imagine a situation any time soon where he'd call for withdrawing troops from Iraq. In fact, his official campaign position calls for *increasing* troops in Iraq, and offers absolutely no practical terms for success that might lead to our ability to withdraw.
Obama's characterization of his position is absolutely fair. He does need to get the words right, though.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )journalism school in the country." I have no way of knowing, and the fact that they may stack the deck at the NYT isn't the end of it AFAIC.
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )As I recall, it was in 2004 and the burning question was whether John Kerry's covert missions in Vietnam had actually taken him over the Cambodia border or merely near it. This was seen as the essential and final determination of whether Kerry was a lying fraud, although of course those arguing the point had all made up their minds already.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )Tho it's at least possible that BD's criticisms put him over the loss line, I guess. I hope. But I'm afraid it's more likely that that wonderfully conceived windsurfing commercial did the deed.
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )Thank God we had the GOP to focus the national attention on crucially important matters like the candidate's choice of leisure activities.
I look forward to our upcoming conversation about Obama's bowling technique.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )That was a brilliant commercial, perfectly encapsulating Kerry's flip-flopping on various issues. If Obama can come up with something as good he could ride it into the WH. And fallout from the perception that windsurfing is an elite sport (it sure ain't) was just frosting.
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )There were plenty of Kerry flip-flop ads before the windsurfing ad. The reason the windsurfing ad worked is that it had windsurfing, which is perceived (by the sort of Americans who use the word "ain't" without irony) as an activity of the effete rich.
The striking thing about the comments on the Charlie Daniels blog HankP linked to in mmghosh's latest diary is how many of them dis global warming on the basis of who its advocates are. Daniels himself made several disparaging references to "Hollywood elites", etc.
Obviously none of this is germane, because we all know the Democrats are the party of class warfare. The GOP never gets tired of telling us that. In between oppo windsurfing ads.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )Yet windsurfing goes on around here all the time (though that lady never snapped my picture AFAIK). If you're familiar with the concept of surf bums, just expand it a bit and you'll get the picture.
Maybe Kerry shouldn't have flown to WA for an afternoon of windsurfing and then bragged about it - I don't know. But the windsurfing ad will go down in history as one of the best, akin to that photo of Eagleton leaving the electroshock clinic with his hair all frizzed up and his ears singed.
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )We were on Maui last month. Magical place. Lots of kite surfers off of Paia. Only saw one or two windsurfers. What a place to live.
--"I think the vice president misrepresented what the vice president wanted to say."
--Robert Gibbs
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| parent )actually, what was called Sprecklesville back then, after the SF sugar magnates that owned the place and ran the plantation. Immigrants were shipped in from Portugal, Japan, China and the Philippines (even a few African-Americans from the Mainland) in the 1860s to work the plantation; everyone's job classification was based on their race. My folks sewed up burlap sacks and loaded them with the finished product, which was more or less in the middle of the work scale.
Kite surfing has mostly supplanted the old board-with-sail approach but in my snobbish opinion that's because it's less demanding and has a shallower learning curve. But it's hard to feel piratical when you don't even have a sail on your boat, plus no one ever told a kite surfer they liked the cut of his jib.
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )I was driving down the Columbia Gorge last June, and kitesurfers outnumbered windsurfers 10-to-1. It's also huge in my hometown.
My wife's dad's ashes were laid in Makawao last month. He lived in the Ulapalakula area growing up, and my wife spent her childhood summers with her tutu in Kula. All incredible places. It was like going home for her, and it was the first time there for myself and the kids. The beaches and beach life are amazing, and so is the upcountry climate. We're going back next year. The kids are dying to go surfing.
--"I think the vice president misrepresented what the vice president wanted to say."
--Robert Gibbs
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| parent )I'm guessing you ate at the Haliimaili General Store, which I'm betting is still good. And hope you weren't forced to drink that swill they sell at Tedeschi.
My sympathies on your family's loss. Still, it's a beautiful place to be laid to rest.
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )We supped at the Kula Lodge but didn't have time to hit the winery or the ranch. The Maui Cattle Company owns gobs of land further south, which I'm guessing keeps it from getting developed, and the road getting there is long and basically a big dead end. If they punched a connection up from Wailea, I'd wager that that part of the upcountry would be the next big community. Also, my wife's cousin has a few acres in Kula and he said that the aquifer is so bad that there's effectively a moratorium on new construction.
Looks like we'll have to add the general store to our list.
--"I think the vice president misrepresented what the vice president wanted to say."
--Robert Gibbs
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| parent )You have at least a BA and a JD, that puts you in the top 5% of the country as far as education goes. From what I've been able to gather from your comments, you are also a partner in a law firm. If you're going to redefine elite to exclude yourself, there won't be many people left. Now you may not be a public intellectual or well known outside your field, but you're very near the top from the average person's point of view.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-middleclass-webapr10,0,7813039.story
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| parent )Particularly when you start with the premise that law is a supply/demand business just like selling groceries, except that the product you're selling costs 100 times more, is invisible and will make you ill if you eat it. Lawyers perpetuate themselves by designating the dumbest of their brethren to become elected officials, who then pass more inscrutable laws written in Linear B; lawyers who don't understand those laws then sell their services to anyone dumb enough to pay them to guess at their meaning, depending on circumstances. It's more elaborate and harder to learn than Three-Card Monte, but similar in principle. I have an explanation regarding why so many a-holes gravitate to the profession that involves the theft of grade school lunch money, lack of prom dates and terminal acne in high school, that I won't bore you with. My pool game sucks but I can confidently say no forvm member could touch me at foosball. Fact, not brag.
Luckily I have wise parents who encouraged/forced me to work as a construction laborer (w/union card, I might add) before college, meaning I can handle a shovel and a heli-arc welder better than most here. So I learned that there is dignity in a day's honest work no matter what you do, which I don't think is particularly elitist. And who doesn't want to find a job where you get paid more for working less? The American Dream, IOW.
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )Not exactly helping your case. Everybody knows bubble hockey is the working stiffs game.
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent )realizing that 90% of the Republican appeal is an emotional reaction to "elites" (i.e., anyone with a HS education who's interested in more than sports) is the key to understanding American politics over the past 30 years.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Zing, I think.
Sports and envy as keys to understanding American politics over the past 30 years? OK, that not only simplifies my life but will drastically cut down on reading and blogging. Thx.
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )we will see plenty about the Clintons' $$$. The GOP is holding their fire at the moment, doubtless in the vain hope that she might actually pull it off -- with the help of her new "friend", Richard Mellon Scaife.
I wonder if he'd have the courtesy to send a "Dear Hillary" letter before commencing the evisceration, if she is the nominee.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )Mark Penn is out! Holy Jeepers, what's Harley gonna' do now?!!
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )$6 mil at last count, even though the Clinton campaign's behind on healthcare payments for the plebes that still work for her. Nice work if you can find it - where's Bob Shrum when you need him?
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )http://ourfuture.org/blog-entry/occupying-iraq-just-occupying-alabama
--Mr. McBarkersons is on Your Side:
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)A nontrivial number of Southerners believe that the military bases in the South still exist in order to fulfill their original purpose, i.e. to prevent a second Southern uprising. I lived in Atlanta for about five years and I heard this point of view advanced on several occasions.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )over here from redstate. its overdue.
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| parent )it is
--treason in defense of slaveryConfederate history month.I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )How DO you do the line-out thing here?
I tried to do it in one of my sparkling rejoinders to BD here, but neither the <> or the [] seemed to do it.
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| parent )there's a link labeled "Input Format" just under the text box for the comment. Click on it and select "Full HTML". That allows all kinds of HTML tags, like superscripts, subscripts, strikeouts, you name it. A site like this will fill you in on all the codes you can use. If you do use them, do a preview first so you can be sure it looks like what you want and you're not formatting all the comments that follow by forgetting to close a tag.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Hahahahahaha! Hahaha. Hm. Haha. Oh me.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent ).
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )when you're hunting møøse.
Reference here.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Trouble is, escape codes don't seem to work in comment headings (at least not the way I put them in).
They render correctly if you click on my blink comment above. Which I encourage everyone to do. (There are no do-overs in comedy, unless you're me.)
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )there's no option to include full HTML in titles, and from what I've seen of the Drupal code there's a good reason for that.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent ).
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )HTML tips are pretty useful for
idiotstechnology-challenged posters like me!- reply
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| parent )to live in a part of the country that considers Robert E. Lee a hero and Abraham Lincoln an a**hole.
There is a certain amount of truth to the Southern viewpoint. For instance, the vast majority of Southerners did not own slaves and did not see the war as being about slavery. And after all, the North was the military aggressor; the South merely wanted peacefully to secede.
However, these grains of truth are mixed up with so much self-serving BS and conscious myth-making about the Old South that they lose all effectiveness.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )from this Obama says McCain says he wants a 100 year war in Iraq faux-dustup?
Some way to link it to Rev. J. Wright and Black Liberation Theology.
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)When did it become verboten to discuss two seperate issues regarding a presidential candidate without conflating them?
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent ).
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )--
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )I think the title of your next diary should be "Dishonest Democrats and their dishonest attempts to dishonestly smear McCain with their dishonest statements".
--I blame it all on the Internet
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)But then, so is a lingering skin disease. (But on the bright side, even Franken is funnier than the pathetic Randee Rhodes.)
I can't tell if you believe Obama was being straightforward here (some of the liberals quoted above sure don't) or are just playing "look over there - a black hole is eating the Earth!" so I'll ask you straight out: Did Obama mischaracterize McCain's words or not?
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )The right question would be, "Did Obama mischaracterize McCain's position or not?"
If McCain would not support an endless war, he can dispel allegations to that effect by setting some boundary conditions. That's not an unreasonable expectation, I think.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )and that we're really parsing a pretty subtle distinction. And I give this debate a day or two more before it dies everywhere except on certain blogs; it's insignificant in the overall scheme of things. And November is still too far away for relative minutiae like this to have an effect. But still, Obama's been quoting McCain, so I have to agree with BD that the quote ought to be right.
To me this started as a (rare) mistake on the part of the Obama campaign, and it will die out just like the other two or three did. (Wright, though, is a keeper, and I guarantee that you'll be seeing his fumaroles a lot in the general.)
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )McCain was for a 100 year occupation before he was against it.
--Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. -Mark Twain
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| parent )link
(h/t TPM)
--Mucho gusto me llamo Bradley... -B. Nowell
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)But I'm sure you already no that. I'm betting that if pressed on the honesty of the above quote, she'll seize on the last line and interpret it as meaning she didn't agree that McCain actually said that, as opposed to not agreeing with what he said, or in fact didn't say. Duck, it's a sniper!
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )McCain on the Charlie Rose show in November:
So McCain wants US troops to stay in Iraq for a hundred years, but only if it becomes South Korea, but it won't become South Korea.
It's impossible to characterize incoherent views dishonestly. If McCain is so interested in an honest and open debate on Iraq, he needs to say what he means. What are the conditions which will result in a hundred-year American presence? What are the conditions which will result in a withdrawal of troops?
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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)I would have no objection because McCain has said inconsistent things. McCain said one thing on Charlie Rose and another in New Hampshire. But instead of pointing that out, Obama forsaked accuracy and forsaked his "new kind of politics" and went straight to dishonesty. The fact remains that Obama is telling voters that McCain said X when he really said Y. It's more than a little baffling why he made that choice. Instead of being transcendant, he's descending to the level of ordinary politicians.
--"I think the vice president misrepresented what the vice president wanted to say."
--Robert Gibbs
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| parent )It's **Forsook**. :) Sorry, BD, can't pass this one up. Forsake is a strong verb which means it receives a vowel change in the past tense as opposed to just adding an "ed" ending as in the case of most modern "weak" verbs.
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )I knew there was a reason I was uncomfortable writing it.
--"I think the vice president misrepresented what the vice president wanted to say."
--Robert Gibbs
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| parent )It's very easy to interpret McCain's remarks to mean that he wants to keep fighting for as long as it takes, no matter what, and then stay another hundred years. You characterize this approach as "mind-reading", but it's not. It's one viable interpretation of a series of remarks that are, to put it charitably, ambiguous. Mind-reading is what you and McCain are asking us to do -- or more accurately, McCain is trying to present a blank slate which any listener can interpret as agreeing with their own opinions. It's entirely fair to call him out on it, and one way of doing that is to throw out various interpretations and force him to deny them. You'll recall that this is exactly the tactic the GOP pursued with Kerry.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )You can make any interpretations about McCain that you want, but the problem is that Obama is claiming that McCain is saying things that McCain has not said. To claim otherwise is to abuse the English language. This is the "look over there" defense because you're trying to take the focus away from Obama and put it on McCain.
If the Obama campaign wants to say that McCain wants to keep fighting for as long as it takes, no matter what, and then stay another hundred years, then fine, they should say that, but they're not. Obama is still failing to make distinctions between war/occupation and a military presence a al South Korea, apparently to give the impression that McCain is a warmonger who will preside over a Bush 3rd term. It's a tactic that the McCain camp is going to fight, and I believe they have enough media on their side to make it stick.
Look, when I said I thought Obama was a transcendant candidate who can cross party lines and be a uniter, I didn't sign up for this recent spate of crap. I still think he's the better nominee than Hillary, but I wish he'd end this nonsense.
--"I think the vice president misrepresented what the vice president wanted to say."
--Robert Gibbs
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| parent )you didn't "sign up" for Obama. Please don't try to kid anyone that there was any chance you'd be voting for Obama in the general election. You endorsed him in the primary; heck, I endorsed McCain in the Republican primary, that doesn't mean I want him as President.
No one is trying to "shift the focus". What we are resisting is your artificial narrowing of the focus to a single comment by McCain. Your desire that the Obama camp hedge their every accusation of what McCain seems to want is noted and ignored; politics is hardball. If McCain is not willing to accept a hundred years of war in Iraq, then the solution is very simple: he can tell America what he will accept, in the very likely event that Iraq never becomes South Korea. How many years of war are enough? If it's less than a hundred, we've surely yet to hear that from John McCain.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )No. The simple standard is that if they're going to criticize McCain's words, they should criticize him on something that he actually said. The onus is on Obama to get that small bit right, and he blew it.
--"I think the vice president misrepresented what the vice president wanted to say."
--Robert Gibbs
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| parent )Obama's criticism of McCain is based on a legitimate extrapolation of McCain's Iraq stance. I hate to keep bringing up 2004, but maybe you remember this little gem:
Kerry did not say that he would allow any foreign nation veto power over the actions of the United States, but that is nonetheless a fair interpretation of what he thought, and one that demanded a response. Kerry responded promptly by denying the Bush interpretation.
All McCain has to do is respond by saying "No, I will not allow our troops to be in combat in Iraq for a hundred years. I will withdraw them if..." (Again, I don't know how he would actually finish that sentence, but I'm certainly willing to give him a chance to do it.)
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )He wants us there as long as it takes to become similar to South Korea (which he has said won't happen), at which point he would be happy to have us there for 100 years or more.
What's a possible alternate meaning? That he wants the US to pull out of Iraq completely and wait around for it to become like South Korea (which he has said won't happen), at which point the US goes back to Iraq and stays for 100 years? That's even more preposterous than what he actually meant.
100 years of war might not even be the worst thing that could happen with a dithering, confused man like McCain in charge.
--Mr. McBarkersons is on Your Side:
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| parent )BD, do you really want Obama to use McCain's actual words? If so, we will be having a discussion about how John McCain still doesn't realize that Al Qaeda consists of Sunnis, not Shiites as Senator McCain continues to assert. Not appreciating the difference between Sunnis and Shias raises far more credibility issues in my mind than his ill-advised remark about a 100 year commitment in Iraq.
--Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. -Mark Twain
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)...would be a breath of fresh air, perhaps even a new kind of politics.
Lest you all think I'm a big whopping McCainiac, I have taken McCain to task for his unfair attack that Romney wanted secret timetables for withdrawal (cite) and I used to be strongly anti-McCain. Just thought I'd round out the picture a little.
--"I think the vice president misrepresented what the vice president wanted to say."
--Robert Gibbs
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| parent )Too bad "Bird Flu" is already taken as a descriptor, since BD seems to have come down with a heckuva fever. Seriously, you've spent all this time composing and posting these lengthy screeds to drive home a point ("Obama is a liar") - based solely on your personal "worst-case" interpretation?
Geez, Charles: why do I feel that if Sen. Obama said he wore grey socks to a campaign stop, and a video showed he was wearing black socks instead, that this would prompt a several-hundred-word blogpost sputtering on about how this latest example of Obama's vicious and premeditated mendacity absolutely proved his utter unfitness to become President?
After all, if a leader can't remember something as basic as what color socks he was wearing, what's he going to do when The Terrorists raid his drawers?
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)I think it's more to do with bolstering McCain than tearing down Obama. Though I'm sure we'll get some of that too. In this case, and as mentioned elsewhere, the GOP -- and Bird -- are scared spitless that this will be the albatross around McCain's neck all the way to November. That's why they're circling the wagons to an extraordinary degree. Blast faxes, talking points. The wingtards over at Redstate are even organizing an assault on any media outlet that dares to repeat this slanderous canard.
Slanderous, except, of course, that it's true. And that, more than anything else, is what scares them.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )This has nothing to do with bolstering McCain, it's an attempt to suck all the oxygen out of any discussion that doesn't have to do with Obama's dishonesty. That's why we keep seeing the phrase "new kind of politics" in scare quotes, and BD is feverishly trying to be the one to write the bumpersticker Obama can't scrape off his campaign bus (cf. "The Opacity of Truth").
It's the beginning of the massive character assassination plot that is going to be the Obama presidency.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )which is a mistake on our part.
Remember those liberals that insisted a "vigorous" primary battle between Obama and Clinton would help the Dems and hurt McCain? How has that worked so far?
Maybe this kerfluffle is actually the best shot Obama can take against McCain at this point because he's too busy dodging sniper shots from the Clinton campaign, firing back at her coiffure, and making sure he's thoroughly plugged the hole Wright blew in his dingy. If so, our plan is working. (If not, it still is. Riddle me that, Batman.)
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )Okay. Works for me. First, Hertzberg, moved from the last bleat to this one.
And it's not that he said it once, McCain has been bruiting about this doddering stupidity with great regularity. The fine folks over at TPM have compiled his greatest hits in this regard. Here.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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)If Obama keeps up with the dishonesty, it's going to sink his own campaign, and conservatives and the GOP are going to continue going after Obama for this. Hertzberg is mindreading about what McCain "wants", barely more honest than Obama, and Marshall says nothing that makes Obama's statements less dishonest. If Obama wants to point to McCain's inconsistencies about a post-combat presence in Iraq, fine, then by all means he should make that case, but he's not. Apparently, he and at his advisors are under the illusion that McCain's comments are a "clean shot".
--"I think the vice president misrepresented what the vice president wanted to say."
--Robert Gibbs
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| parent )I welcome the chance to analyze the 100 years statement for the remainder of the campaign.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )But I'd suggest that while there are many ways to attack Obama -- you'll go to hell for doing it, but that's beside the point -- this simply isn't one of them. The very first question Russert will ask him in the very first debate will be about this very statement. And they'll have video to back it up.
So in that sense, yes. This is a clean shot. And calling Obama a liar will be a less than efficient way of responding to it.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )this pre-emptive obsession with McCain's phrase is the surest sign that it hurts McCain badly to have this repeated. I plan to repeat it myself at least once a week until November, along with calling a McCain presidency a third Bush term.
I also expect many more of these from McCain. His problem is that if he sticks to the script, he's a horrible, horrible speaker. If he ad libs, he can be quite charming but he tends to make these statements that he has to backtrack on for the next several weeks.
I also count on the derangement of his supporters to do a lot of the work for the Dem nominee.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Many of his presumptive supporters are fully wedded to the idea, long pushed by the current President, that we need to keep fighting in Iraq for as long as it takes to win. But at least an equal number of them -- judging by opinion polls -- are not wedded to that idea at all, and want (at minimum) some kind of metric by which we can evaluate the feasibility of keeping our troops there. McCain has to satisfy both groups, which is an even thornier electoral problem than Kerry faced in 2004.
In a sense, you can't blame the guy. He has to be incoherent, because coherency is going to turn off too many of his core supporters. The question is, are the media going to keep letting him get away with being the "straight talker"? Indications are that they probably will, given how they've decided to pile on Obama over this particular dispute.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )that's why I reject the idea that McCain is an automatic winner in November. The race will tighten up, but it's the Rs who have to worry about defections and anomie this cycle.
BTW, incoherency hasn't seemed to affect Republican electoral chances in the past.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )by McCain in November is a sea change from the attitude of most Dems two months ago. Back in January almost everyone thought this was a two-horse race, and that there was really no need for a general election; we could simply inaugurate the winner of the Dem primary.
I actually disagree with the idea that McCain has a serious chance, but current polls don't support me.
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )Given the current political climate and a likely matchup of Obama v. McCain, it's hard to see how the Republicans win the White House this year. A looming recession, unpopular war, mortgage crisis and the negative influence of the incumbent all work against it. Not mention that Obama should be able to run circles around McCain once he doesn't have to worry about Clinton anymore.
However, like the man said, predictions are hard, especially about the future. The are a lot of things that could happen between now and November that could swing the election the other way. I don't think they're likely, but they're not impossible either.
--Guard, protect and cherish your land, for there is no afterlife for a place that started out as Heaven.
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| parent )I do think the Dems will walk to an easy win, I just think the current number of undecideds will fall dramatically like they do every four years. I don't think it will be a blowout by 10 - 20%, but I do think it will be a clear win.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )by about the same margin to McCain in the general, with both outcomes within the margins of error. Link. I know, polls are polls, particularly this early. But even polls saying this in March/April was not something any Dem would have predicted in December or January. It was supposed to be a cakewalk for you guys; now whoever wants it will have to fight for it with whatever energy they have left after the primary mud-wrestling is over, and after a lot of Dem ammo was spent shooting at Repub hopefuls who didn't make the cut.
--My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken
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| parent )I still think that a hotly contested primary makes for a better candidate. At this point I don't think the polls are anything more than a name recognition test. And anybody who thinks any election will be a cakewalk a year out doesn't know much about politics - too many things can happen.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )on how we get to a peaceful Iraq, he can talk about a Japanese or NATO style military presence. But until then, without a coherent plan for getting to point B from point A, he deserves the criticism he's getting.
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)Obama should be the one demanding how McCain can claim we can Iraq to that point, but he hasn't. As it is, Obama is claiming McCain said X when he really said Y. This is a matter of plain English. As I say to both my conservative and liberal friends, words mean things.
--"I think the vice president misrepresented what the vice president wanted to say."
--Robert Gibbs
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| parent )but he had Petraeus and Crocker roasting over a small fire yesterday. (Josh Marshal has video here.)
You may have a good point about the relative fairness (or lack thereof) in Obama's attack on McCain. But that's the way politics is played in this country. Remember Swift Boating? Or the claim that Al Gore said he invented the Internet? The shoe's just spending some time on the other foot now.
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| parent )It was a dumb thing for McCain to say.
Get used to hearing about it a lot.
--Mucho gusto me llamo Bradley... -B. Nowell
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)