Obama eludes and elides on Iraq


[Updated]

In an earlier post, I endorsed Barack Obama as the best choice for Democratic nominee, but that doesn’t mean I think he should be president. The two most important issues for me are the economy (which I’ll address in a later post) and the War against Militant Islamism, and the most important part of the war is Iraq. I have serious problems with Obama’s “plan” and statements and political record on the subject. In last Tuesday’s debate, Obama brought up the familiar refrain about judgment and the choice to go to war in the first place. Quote:

Well, Senator Clinton I think equates experience with longevity in Washington. I don't think the American people do and I don't think that if you look at the judgments that we've made over the last several years that that's the accurate measure. On the most important foreign policy decision that we face in a generation -- whether or not to go into Iraq -- I was very clear as to why we should not -- that it would fan the flames of anti-American sentiment -- that it would distract us from Afghanistan -- that it would cost us billions of dollars, thousands of lives, and would not make us more safe, and I do not believe it has made us more safe.

Obama’s brilliant answer killed a flock of birds with one stone: He differentiated himself from an opponent where there is little real daylight between the two, he made clear that his opinions are more closely aligned with the party base, and he successfully skirted around the fact that he is a freshman Senator with basically two years of legislative experience on the national stage. Most importantly, he successfully diverted the discussion away from his judgment on an issue of equal (if not greater) importance: Whether to draw down our troops or make a fundamental change in the strategy. In January 2007, during Iraq’s darkest hour, Obama was clearly against the surge strategy.

Meanwhile, Obama said he told the president directly that an "escalation of troop levels in Iraq was a mistake." Obama was among more than a dozen senators of both parties who were invited to the White House to discuss his plans for Iraq. Bush plans to continue to meet with lawmakers and is expected to announce his new Iraq strategy next week in an address to the nation. "It was an open-ended discussion," Obama told reporters after the meeting. "The president asked for our opinions. I think both Republican and Democratic senators expressed grave concern about the situation in Iraq. I personally indicated that an escalation of troop levels in Iraq was a mistake and that we need a political accommodation, rather than a military approach to the sectarian violence there," said Obama.

Obama’s comment betrayed a lack of understanding of what the strategy was really about, because the whole point of the COIN strategy is to create an environment where insurgents will choose to resolve differences through the political process rather than by violence. Either that or he was being less than honest. Obama had the chance to further examine Petraeus' strategy, and in hypocritical fashion, Obama voted "yea" in confirming Petraeus to four-star general yet four days later he introduced process-oriented legislation that would gut the Petraeus plan.

Wanting to learn a little more, I checked his campaign website and was even more disappointed, starting with this sentence:

At great cost, our troops have helped reduce violence in some areas of Iraq, but even those reductions do not get us below the unsustainable levels of violence of mid-2006.

The statement is flatly and factually false, as seen in the graphs below (hat tip to Engram for the graphs).

Suicide bombings—which are the exclusive province of al Qaeda—killed 213 of 566 civilians last month, or 38% of the total, and al Qaeda was responsible for 291 killings or 51% of the total. Despite comparatively small numbers, they remain lethal. Shiite hit squads are also a problem. There were 97 extra-judicial killings last month, meaning that these groups hunted down military-age Sunni males and killed them execution-style. But basically, there are 1,000 fewer civilian deaths per month under the current surge strategy. Under the Obama “plan”, there is every reason to believe civilian casualties would have looked like this.

Why? Because going by Obama’s proposed legislation, his “plan” called for unilateral troop draw downs during a time when terrorist attacks and extra-judicial killings were raging. Of course, the trend lines are arguable, but the conclusions in the April 2006 National Intelligence Estimate are not, which said:

The Iraq conflict has become the cause célèbre for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of US involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement. Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves, and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight.

It couldn’t be clearer to me that the McCain/Petraeus plan has made significant strides in convincing jihadists that they are failing in Iraq. Obama’s so-called plan, which called for cutting and running when suicide bombings were peaking,

would have signaled our defeat at the hands of these terrorists. Obama’s short-sightedness on troop withdrawals would likely have inspired al Qaeda & Co. to carry on the fight, using Iraq as a propaganda tool for recruiting more terrorists into their fold. I am convinced that there would be more militant Islamists today if Obama got what he wanted back in January 2007. Then there’s his next sentence, which is a whopper:

Moreover, Iraq's political leaders have made no progress in resolving the political differences at the heart of their civil war.

Muqtada al-Sadr is a political leader, and he stood down his JAM militias last August and he recently extended his ceasefire. That's political progress. Although progress has been halting, political leaders in the national government have made significant strides at resolving political differences. Although no oil revenue sharing bill has passed, political leaders have set up a system for sharing oil revenues. When Sunni tribal sheiks joined the coalition and turned their collective backs on al Qaeda, political progress was made. Obviously, much work remains to be done, the fact remains that Obama’s statement is outrageously untrue.

Also, it is arguable that there is a civil war in Iraq, but Obama and the Democratic Party continue to trot out this storyline. There are competing factions, to be sure, and those factions frequently resort to violence. But calling Iraq a civil war glosses over the actions of al Qaeda, whose primary goal is to foment a civil war between Shiites and Sunnis, and they are failing in that endeavor. It ignores the fact that northern Iraq is stable. It ignores the fact that southern Iraq is virtually all Shiite and run by Shiites. It ignores the fact that Anbar province is virtually all Sunni and is run by Sunnis. The fact of the matter is that there are mixed Sunni-Shiite areas in Iraq, especially Baghdad, where sectarian violence has occurred and has sparked a refugee problem. Calling it a “civil war” is a matter of opinion, not fact, and that’s what Obama does all too often. He conveys opinions, giving the impression to impressionable voters that they are facts when they are really not. It is slickness reminiscent of Slick Willie himself. More from Obama’s campaign website:

As a candidate for the United States Senate in 2002, Obama put his political career on the line to oppose going to war in Iraq, and warned of "an occupation of undetermined length, with undetermined costs, and undetermined consequences."

Obama was not a candidate for the U.S. Senate in 2002. He ran for a U.S. House seat in 2000 and lost, and in 2004, he resigned from the State Senate to run for the U.S. Senate. In 2002, Obama was running for reelection to the State Senate, a position he held since 1996. His district has a huge Democratic majority, so he was an incumbent with a safe seat; therefore it is ridiculous for him to claim that he put his career on the line. Obama continued this lie in last Tuesday’s debate when he said, "My objections to the war in Iraq were simply -- not simply a speech [referring to his October 2002 speech against invading Iraq]. I was in the midst of a U.S. Senate campaign." Obama’s "career on the line" nonsense is under the section titled "judgment you can trust" on his website, which leads me this question: How can you trust a man’s judgment when you cannot justifiably trust his facts?

[Update:] Having seen Wagster's diary, I checked a little further. In mid-2002, Obama formed a campaign committee to challenge Peter Fitzgerald. He did not form an actual campaign. Obama was interested in the job, and he was preparing to run for the job, but he hadn't entered the race at that time. Another blogger checked some history and came to the conclusion that Obama's statements were deceptive, and I agree.

Here is what I found on Obama's own site:

In a December 2nd, 2002 article from Roll Call newspaper entitled, "Democrats and Even some in GOP Ponder Senate Challenge" by Lauren W. Whittington, "Other Democrats expected to enter the raced in coming months are state Comptroller Dan Hynes, state Sen. Barack Obama and wealthy investment banker Blair Hull, who are all working behind the scenes to secure money and support before making their intentions official. Both Obama and Hull have formed exploratory committees."

Later in the article there was this, "Meanwhile Obama and other Democrats are nervously watching Moseley-Braun, who continues to be coy about her intentions. If she does enter the primary, Obama has indicated that he will not run."

In a November 29th, 2002 article from the Springfield State Journal-Register entitled "Lahood, Fitzgerald Trade Jabs"by Bernard Schoenburg, Political Writer, "Besides Moseley-Braun other possible Democratic candidates for the U.S. Senate in two years include former Chicago School Board president Gery Chico, who has already filed as a candidate; state Comptroller Dan Hynes; Chicago investor Blair Hull; state Sen. Barack Obama of Chicago; and U.S. Rep. Jan Schakowsky of Evanston."

[...]

The first one was a January 29th, 2003 article from the Hyde Park Herald entitled "Moseley-Braun backs out, Obama in the Senate race" by Todd Spivak. It contains the following, "Moseley-Braun?s [sic] withdrawal thrust opne th edoor for another Hyde Parker, seven-year state Sen. Barack Obama (D-13), who has already emerged as a top contender among what will likely be a crowded field of Democratic candidates. Convinced that a raace against the popular and better-known Moseley-Braun would have split the state?s [sic] African-American vote, Obama for months has waited on pins and needles for her announcement."

The next paragrah says, "?[sic] would have deferred to Carol had she decided to run,? [sic] said Obama, 41, who formally announced his candidacy yesterday in the Loop. ?[sic] was waiting with everyone else to find out her plans."

Emphases mine. Obama surely wanted to be a candidate, and he was preparing to be a candidate, and I'm sure that he felt like he was a candidate in his own mind. But on October 29th, 2002, Barack Obama wasn't a candidate for the 2004 U.S. Senate seat. He was a potential candidate. A pre-candidate. Thinking about it another way, if Carol Moseley-Braun had sais "yes" to running instead of "no", do you think it is plausible that Obama could still claim that he was a candidate in 2002 for the 2004 race for the U.S. Senate? Or that he was in the "midst of a campaign"? The answer, to me, is no.

It looks to me like Obama was trying to backdate his Senatorial campaign to make it sound like he was a U.S. Senator and candidate for longer than he really was. I don't believe that this is a "Change We Can Believe In", to paraphrase his little slogan. Some are going to quibble that there's no real difference between a candidate and a potential candidate, but as Bildstein notes, if you're interviewing a couple of fellas for a college-level job, all other factors being equal, are you going to go with the college graduate or the potential college graduate? The difference is pretty fundamental. As I keep telling my conservative friends when it comes to "amnesty" and my liberal friends when it comes to "fascism", words mean things. [/end Update]

Again going by his campaign website, Obama believes the following:

Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months.

This is troubling on multiple levels, first because Obama says not a word about strategy and tactics. It’s all about sending troops home, nothing about the situation on the ground. Second, Obama’s timeline conflicts with General Petraeus’ timeline. Finally, Obama's large and precipitous withdrawals conflict with the latest National Intelligence Estimate, which says the following:

Coalition capabilities, including force levels, resources, and operations, remain an essential stabilizing element in Iraq. If Coalition forces were withdrawn rapidly during the term of this Estimate, we judge that this almost certainly would lead to a significant increase in the scale and scope of sectarian conflict in Iraq, intensify Sunni resistance to the Iraqi Government, and have adverse consequences for national reconciliation.

Obama’s logic is the exact opposite of the NIE, and he is on the wrong side of the issue. Finally, Obama's phased surrender plan conflicts with his own words in 2004:

Now, us having gone in there, we have a deep national security interest in making certain that Iraq is stable. If not, not only are we going to have a humanitarian crisis, we are also going to have a huge national security problem on our hands-because, ironically, it has become a hotbed of terrorists as a consequence, in part, of our incursion there. In terms of timetable, I'm not somebody who can say with certainty that a year from now or six months from now we're going to be able to pull down troops.

Now his mantra is that, by leaving, reconciliation among Iraqis will happen and everything will get better, even though such significant withdrawals will likely destabilize the country, reintroduce chaos and reignite sectarian violence. The environment Obama seeks is the very same one which allowed al Qaeda to grow and fester. Here’s some more illogic:

He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.

Newsflash. Al Qaeda is in Iraq right now. They’re the ones responsible for 51% of civilian deaths last month, and they’re the ones who General Petraeus still considers our biggest challenge there. Obama’s statement makes no sense because it assumes that al Qaeda is already gone.

Obama also wants to "surge our diplomacy". Another newsflash. It’s already happening. Ambassador Crocker is in Iraq, coordinating his efforts with General Petraeus and working constantly with the various Iraqi factions to help them achieve their political benchmarks.

Obama’s statements on Iraq lead me to believe that he would be a foreign policy disaster for America. If he gets his way, Iraq would destabilize, reversing all the hard-fought gains made and adversely affecting our national security. Even if you accept that he made the right judgment in 2002, his judgments in 2007 and 2008 on the surge strategy are more important because they are current and because losing in Iraq could have calamitous repercussions on our country. Vietnam was bad enough. As Tom Maguire notes, Obama is not running in 2002 and he’s not running against George W. Bush. The issue on the table is what Obama would do in Iraq today. To me, it looks like he'd rather surrender, no matter all the remarkable gains we've made since September.
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The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left -- Ecclesiastes 10:2

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

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Yoo hoo! [waving arms at moderators] (#83362)
by Bird Dog

I made a necessary update to the post, which pulled it off the front page.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Out of interest, is the Iraq war abnormally expensive? (#83029)
by mmghosh

Historically speaking, it seems rather a lot - to have spent a couple of trillion dollars. Is it because of the increase in cost of munitions? Mechanisation? Salaries?

Are there any comparable figures for similar wars? Do these figures get audited?

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Manish Ghosh

No, it isn't (#83379)
by Bernard Guerrero

Given that the strain of war-fighting is placed on a sovereign state with (in modern times) virtually unlimited powers of taxation and debt issuance, the right measuring stick is against the GDP from which that state can draw resources. By that measure, this hasn't amounted to much. Keep in mind how large the U.S. economy is, and how it has grown in both real and nominal terms since 1945.

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The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
- H.L. Mencken

That is a pretty intuitive idea. n/t (#83778)
by mmghosh

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Manish Ghosh

We still want 2 sticks (#83382)
by catchy

The one we were talking about measures how expensive this is, yours measures how much we can afford such an expense.

... oh, and we still need another stick to chase you down the street with. make that 3 sticks.

You lost me. (#83386)
by Bernard Guerrero

What's the point of measuring an expense beyond whether or not it's affordable? I worry more about my mortgage than a guy making a million every year would precisely because my mortgage is a large expense for me vis-a-vis my income while it would be much smaller for the million-in-income dude. OTOH, increase his mortgage proportionally and he'd worry about it to a much larger extent.

To put it another way, the statement "the war in [x] is the most expensive in history" becomes a trivial one as the years roll by, because the economy generally grows and prices usually go up.

I understand that I'm in favor of the war and you aren't, but my objection runs a bit deeper than that. I'd say the same thing if you said this was the most expensive year ever for the Social Security Administration or that 9/11 was the most expensive act of political violence on U.S. soil ever. In both cases the claim may be true in nominal terms but could be questioned in terms of the underlying reality of GDP, government revenues, population, etc.

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The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
- H.L. Mencken

you got lost coz i chased you too far away from home (#83406)
by catchy

with a stick.

I understand that I'm in favor of the war and you aren't, but my objection runs a bit deeper than that.

Buh?

you must picture my mental life as 'Me against war. me hate measuring as % of GDP'.

anyway...

What's the point of measuring an expense beyond whether or not it's affordable

All kinds of reasons in the general case as well as this one in particular.

perhaps someone is curious why a war w. a fraction of the causalties and troop levels as Vietnam is nevertheless more expensive (using adjusted-for-inflation #s, BG, not nominal figures, sheesh.)

That can lead to e.g. discussion of the respective injure/kill ratios, equipment expenses, etc.

... I'm lost how you can be lost.

The fact remains no war since [edit: except] WWII (#83389)
by Jordan

has ever cost this much in adjusted dollar terms, so compared to other wars, this one has certainly been expensive.

There's also the fact that it's all being put on Uncle Sam's credit card, and with the off chance of a credit/energy crisis in the next 20 years....

And we haven't gotten to the question of what we got out of it all for our trouble.

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Adjusted for inflation.... (#83399)
by Bernard Guerrero

....which still doesn't account for the relative sizes of the underlying economies. Also, most wars get financed via debt, for good reason. In the end, it still comes out of taxes (or inflation.)

We can, of course, argue about the return. You and I differ on that, but it's arguable. The "most. expensive. evah!" argument, OTOH, just looks dumb to me.

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The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
- H.L. Mencken

It's a simple fact. (#83424)
by Jordan

This relatively small campaign plus occupation in Iraq has cost us more in inflation-adjusted dollars than: WWI, Korea, Vietnam, the Revolutionary war, the Civil War, the War of 1812, and of course the hundreds of smaller engagements in between. Big expense, small return, any way you slice it.

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Negative retrurn n/t (#83428)
by Spartacvs
It seems rather a lot (#83045)
by stillnotking

I see the lovely tradition of understatement survives in India. :)

I'm just waiting for someone to ask McCain whether the US should spend another trillion dollars in Iraq, and his response: "Make it a googol!"

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The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

US CBO estimates $2.4 trillion in long-term costs (#83041)
by Jordan

with much of that going to payments on interest, since the Bush admin is financing much of the war on credit. It far exceeds the cost of Korean War, Vietnam and WWI. WWII cost the US $4-5 trillion.

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN2450753720071024

For a fun comparison, Pentagon & CBO analysts were predicting a cost between $20 & $80 billion in 2003:

http://dwb.sacbee.com/24hour/special_reports/iraq/story/774997p-5568446c...

Notably Gulf War I cost the US only about $7 billion, the rest of the $60 billion price tag having been picked up by the Saudis, Kuwaitis, and other wealthy bankrollers.

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Thanks for the links. Especially the second one. n/t (#83296)
by mmghosh

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Manish Ghosh

Joseph Stiglitz has a book out on the costs (#83031)
by catchy

called the 3 trillion dollar war.

He counts things like increased healthcare to injured vets.

One unique cost of this war is that the injured to kill ratio is higher given greater protection to the troops. Then that means $ for the federal gov. to look after them.

If he's right, this is the most expensive war since WWII.

... I don't have a handle on the war profiteering re this war as compared to others. I know in the past we've had a tax to ensure that companies didn't make an inordinate amount off of hostilities, but there isn't currently anything like that.

... just exposing my ignorance there in case anyone wants to lend a hand...

Ah yes, I forgot about the injury-to-death ratio (#83295)
by mmghosh

amazingly low in this war. Presumably costs of flying out to the Army hospitals in Germany and the Walter Reed - for intensive care too.

So one group making money out of the war are suppliers to the US Army. Medical supplies, instrumentation etc. I get it.

Two points. Shouldn't this be regarding as inward investment - rather than 'spend' per se? And secondly, this is a low-intensity conflict. Does it rule out, economically at least, the possibility of commercial sustenance of a high-intensity conflict - say with China over Korea or Taiwan?

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Manish Ghosh

i don't know what you mean by 'inward investment' (#83298)
by catchy

it's $ we wouldn't have spent otherwise. it goes into the costs for the war.

I mean it is investment in US companies rather than sourcing (#83301)
by mmghosh

supplies overseas for the troops, creation of jobs etc.

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Manish Ghosh

Given the extremely lax accounting, (#83037)
by Punditus Maximus

my expectation is that war profiteering is at incomprehensible levels.

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It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

COIN doctrine. (#82997)
by Punditus Maximus

I'm sorry, but I don't see any justification for saying that we're following COIN doctrine when we're grossly violating required troop levels.

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It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Bird Dog, many of your links point (#82866)
by Bill White

right back to the forvm.org.

I actually am interested in running some of these down. For example, if Obama's web site actually says he was running for US Senate in 2002 that would be a genuine gaffe.

Also there is a Petreaus quote I'd like to see in context and the link points at a forvm page.

Can you help?

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. . . and it looks as though they’ll punish the monkey and let the organ grinder go . . .

I replaced all quote marks in the html (#82879)
by Bird Dog

The links should work now.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

The great thing about a McCain-Obama election (#82792)
by Gabriel

is that they are both very clear where they stand on Iraq.

If McCain wins Americans will have made clear they are willing to continue the fight.

If Obama wins the opposite message will also be clear.

In either case I expect Americans (well, a majority o voters at least) will get what they want.

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Standard Disclaimer: I only speak for myself. I may or not agree with others. Ask, if you are curious. If I post about X I may not have an opinion about Y, no matter how closely related you think they are.

I don't *think* Obama's the opposite of McCain. (#82811)
by Jordan

As I understand their positions, McCain's "in it to win it" while Obama's in it for damage control. Both are playing to the lunatic fringes on either side to some degree, but I don't think their actual policies will be that much different. If pulling out results in a civil/regional war, then it becomes a US security problem all over again, so we're going to stay until we can leave a reasonably stable Iraqi government in our place.

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

They are presenting themselves as opposites (#82827)
by Gabriel

They may do something different once in power but in terms of what the voters will be choosing from they are in opposite poles.

personally I don't think Obama will have much room to maneuver. If he doesn't get out soon he will be a one-termer, unless somehow the violence ends.

--

Standard Disclaimer: I only speak for myself. I may or not agree with others. Ask, if you are curious. If I post about X I may not have an opinion about Y, no matter how closely related you think they are.

This is one of the big reasons (#82801)
by stillnotking

that I am glad the two candidates don't have any crippling personal vulnerabilities (that we know about -- knock wood). The 2008 election has the potential to be a clarifying one on many levels.

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The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

Scare tactics (#82754)
by Blue Neponset

The US won't suffer any "calamitous repercussions" by leaving Iraq. We didn't suffer any when we left Viet Nam, Somalia or Cuba. You are giving Al Qeada much too much credit.

I don't understand what horrible things will happen if we leave Iraq. Especially if, as you suggest, there is no civil war there. If AQI is truly the "biggest challenge" then the Iraqis can get a lot more brutal than the US can in regard to ridding their country of this threat. Are you suggesting AQI is a threat to the US?

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John McCain, Serial Adulterer or Reckless Hothead? Ha! Ha! Gotcha! That is a trick question. He is both.

Do you think there's any likelihood of Iranian excursions (#82783)
by tomsyl

into Iraq if we leave? If so, does that trouble you?

AFA Vietnam is concerned, I completely disagree. Once the (overwhelmingly Dem) Congress cut off aid and very publicly nullified Nixon's bombing threat, the North Vietnamese overran the border and ultimately, the entire country. Executions and forced labor camps became the norm. According to Wikipedia,

Hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese officials, particularly ARVN officers, were imprisoned in reeducation camps after the Communist takeover. Tens of thousands died and many fled the country after being released. Up to two million civilians left the country, and as many as half of these boat people perished at sea.

The ammo and bombing threats had been promised to Thieu as part of the arm-twisting to get him to sign the Paris Peace Accords, which he strongly opposed. Two key provisions in the accord were:

-- There would be negotiations between the two South Vietnamese parties — the Republic of Vietnam and the PRG — towards a political settlement that would allow the people of South Vietnam to decide their future in free elections.
-- Reunification of Vietnam was to be "carried out step by step through peaceful means."

Again, Wikipedia describes what happened when we reneged on our promises:

The U.S. had promised Thieu that it would use airpower to support his government. On January 14, 1975 Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger stated that the U.S. was not living up to its promise that it would retaliate in the event North Vietnam tried to overwhelm South Viet Nam.

The last phase of the Vietnam conflict occurred during [James] Schlesinger's tenure. Some senators criticized Schlesinger and questioned him sharply during his confirmation hearings in June 1973 after he stated that he would recommend resumption of U.S. bombing in North Vietnam if North Vietnam launched a major offensive against South Vietnam. However, when the North Vietnamese did begin their final offensive early in 1975, the United States Congress refused to appropriate the funds needed by the South Vietnamese, who collapsed completely.

I am deeply ashamed of our country's behavior after we withdrew from South Vietnam. We've broken our promises to protect people before (Bay of Pigs, e.g.) and after Vietnam. Each such instance reflects very poorly on this country, in my opinion.

I'm not suggesting Vietnam is like Iraq, but I do challenge your statement that "We didn't suffer any when we left Viet Nam." Technically that may be true, but many suffered in our stead.

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Rust never sleeps.

And how did any of that affect the US? (#82789)
by Blue Neponset

The answer is, it didn't. Iranian incursions into Iraq won't affect the US either.

If the pro-war crowd wants to argue that leaving Iraq would be bad for the US then they need to explain why it would be bad. BD uses overly broad language to describe the consequences, and you use an example that proves my point, leaving wouldn't affect the US. If there truly were horrible consequences to leaving then they should be easy to describe. The fact that no one can describe them leads me to believe they don't exist.

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John McCain, Serial Adulterer or Reckless Hothead? Ha! Ha! Gotcha! That is a trick question. He is both.

The Vietnam War, and particularly its end, deeply affected (#82791)
by tomsyl

the US by any reasonable measure. If you're saying that no North Vietnamese ever blew up buildings here or attacked barracks and embassies overseas after we withdrew, obviously that's true, but I think it misses and trivializes the whole matter of abandoning people we've made promises to.

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Rust never sleeps.

You are talking about an emotional response (#83012)
by Blue Neponset

I want to do what is best for the US. If your main reason to stay in Iraq involves an emotional response then it isn't a very good reason to stay. Our country shouldn't do things based on emotion.

Re: abandoning people

It happens every day. Life isn't fair. Anyone who lives long enough learns to avoid making promises simply because so many things our out of our control. If Bush & Co. made promises they couldn't keep then maybe we should hold them accountable for being stupid enough to make promises in the first place. Obama or whoever the next President is shouldn't be bound by a bunch of promises that Dubya and his band of idiots should never have made in the first place.

Also, we have to leave Iraq sometime. If five years of occupation and 100's of billions of dollars isn't enough to keep our promises, whatever they are, then how do you know 10 more years and a trillion more dollars will be enough to keep our promise. What, by the way, did we promise Iraq? It is hard to have a discussion about breaking promises when we don't know what these promises are.

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John McCain, Serial Adulterer or Reckless Hothead? Ha! Ha! Gotcha! That is a trick question. He is both.

(a) I agree with you about Vietnam (#82820)
by Bill White

to the extent we did abandon people we made promises to.

(b) Who in Iraq do we owe promises to? And how will it be different 10 years from now?

Letting Turkey invade Kurdistan kinda breaks certain promises also.

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. . . and it looks as though they’ll punish the monkey and let the organ grinder go . . .

What promises did we break? (#82823)
by Timmy

nt

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“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

At a minimum not helping more (#82825)
by Bill White

South Vietnamese escape.

However given our current relations with Vietnam, today, I see little or no lasting geopolitical damage from South Vietnam being conquered.

Human tragedies? Yes. Far too many.

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. . . and it looks as though they’ll punish the monkey and let the organ grinder go . . .

A genocide or two are fine (#82829)
by Timmy

as long as everything works out in the end.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

I started out in agreement with the notion (#82842)
by Bill White

that we broke promises in Vietnam.

You asked me what promises, and I replied "in essence" protecting our friends from the human tragedies associated with the North overrunning the South.

--

. . . and it looks as though they’ll punish the monkey and let the organ grinder go . . .

I hate to tell you this (#82839)
by HankP

but the US killed far more South Vietnamese than the North did.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

What is your basis for that statement? (#82847)
by tomsyl

-0-o-0-

--

Rust never sleeps.

That the US betrayed the South Vietnamese is clear (#82796)
by stillnotking

and shameful. The question is, when did we betray them? When we failed to deliver on a promise, or when we promised what we couldn't deliver?

The little matter of forcibly rearranging their government to suit our purposes must enter the discussion at some point as well.

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

What happened to the Diem brothers certainly (#82821)
by Timmy

played a role, but cutting off funds a far bigger problem.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

So ARVN could have held off the North indefinitely (#82830)
by stillnotking

as long as we were willing to foot the bill?

Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

I would be the last person to justify our intervention; (#82803)
by tomsyl

it's arguably the dumbest thing we did as a country in the twentieth century. I'm glad there's a generation of kids now who don't remember it first-hand.

I'm just pointing out that there can be serious consequences to the national will and psyche from abandoning another country, regardless of the sense or non-sense of making promises in the first place. If the national will is to pull out our forces ASAP, so be it. But we need to face up to our responsibility if the whole thing goes pear-shaped as a result.

--

Rust never sleeps.

If Maliki becomes friendly with Iran (#82818)
by Bill White

Who abandoned who?

As far as al Qaeda goes, why can't the Anbar Sunni and the Shia deal with the terrorists easily enough?

If we "abandon" Iraq who would we abandon it to?

Turkey?

Iran? Eh, see that other photo

Saudis? Nope.

--

. . . and it looks as though they’ll punish the monkey and let the organ grinder go . . .

The Iraqis would be responsible for their own fates in that (#82845)
by tomsyl

instance, not us, obviously. Good, in a way - their choice to sup with the devil.

--

Rust never sleeps.

Take a look at the top of the page (#82860)
by Bill White

Right here at forvm.org

That great Iranian devil himself Ahmadinejad is posing with Maliki and a obviously happy Hakim.

If our goal is to limit Iranian influence, al-Sadr may soon be our best ally. Ironic, no?

--

. . . and it looks as though they’ll punish the monkey and let the organ grinder go . . .

There's a cost if we leave (#82807)
by Gabriel

There's a cost if we stay.

A majority of Americans appear to think the latter is greater.

--

Standard Disclaimer: I only speak for myself. I may or not agree with others. Ask, if you are curious. If I post about X I may not have an opinion about Y, no matter how closely related you think they are.

The impact on the national will and psyche (#82806)
by stillnotking

depends on what lessons are drawn from the tragedy. The lesson drawn from Vietnam -- thank you, Ronnie and Rambo -- was that we just didn't try hard enough, that the Democrats yanked the rug out just before we could win. This was a pure fantasy concocted by the Republicans for domestic political gain.

Our biggest responsibility post-Vietnam was to make sure it didn't happen again. It did. Whose fault was that?

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

Actually, the lesson I drew is don't start something (#82838)
by tomsyl

you're not prepared to finish. And don't make promises you can't keep; in fact, don't make promises.

Reliving the failures of forgotten history is every country's problem to a degree, but this one's bitten us in the ass pretty hard before, and probably will again before you and I visit that Bar & Grille in the sky. Bets?

AFA Vietnam, the rug-yanking happened after we'd already left, and therefore had already lost. Nixon got elected in large part on a promise to bring the troops home, and his ability to keep the plates spinning on the ends of their sticks came undone as a result of Watergate. But Congress knew when it defunded the South what the result would be because Congress was told in so many words. And that was a Dem Congress - there's no dodging that.

--

Rust never sleeps.

Well, as I asked Timmy above (#82844)
by stillnotking

What would have happened if Congress hadn't defunded the South? This is where the myth-making creeps in. Vietnam was irrevocably lost by 1973 and Nixon's phony cease-fire. (The implication that Nixon could have brokered a lasting peace and an independent South if not for Watergate is equally laughable. Nixon's promise of peace with honor was, like almost everything else the man uttered about Vietnam and Cambodia, an outright lie.)

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

Don't know where you're getting the "but for Watergate" (#82854)
by tomsyl

implication, but it ain't from me. That's not remotely what I said, or think. You must mean someone else.

--

Rust never sleeps.

I figured that was what the plate-spinning comment meant (#82855)
by stillnotking

Sorry to misinterpret you; what did you mean?

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

It's an old reference going back to the Ed Sullivan Shoe (#82861)
by tomsyl

and to me at least refers to someone who's got so many schemes/scams going that he can't keep them all straight, and runs out of time to the point where they all collapse simultaneously. Maybe it lost something in the translation.

--

Rust never sleeps.

In any event, Nixon was at least STUPID (#82850)
by Bill White

for doing Watergate and undermining his own political capital.

= = =

Ken Starr and the Congressional Republicans went WAY WAY WAY overboard but Bill Clinton deserves at least a touch of the blame for unzipping his pants and squandering political capital for personal gratification.

--

. . . and it looks as though they’ll punish the monkey and let the organ grinder go . . .

Yep. (#82840)
by Punditus Maximus

I think the lesson you posit is accurate -- but that would imply that the folks currently making decisions take US (or Iraqi) security or interests into account when doing so.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Not to be negative, but what are the odds this won't happen (#82852)
by tomsyl

again in the future? You or I could do everything In our power to prevent it, but that wouldn't ultimately amount to much except for voting for and supporting the campaign of someone we hope will do better. And like someone above pointed out, we all promised ourselves (well, I did, anyway - don't know your age) never again after Vietnam. But here we are. Again, the two wars are completely different in many important ways, but the "leave/stay, keep/break promises made going in" elements are depressingly similar.

--

Rust never sleeps.

Vietnam ended before I was born. (#82998)
by Punditus Maximus

Making it all the more ironic, I suppose, that I viewed Iraq (correctly) as nothing but a parallel quagmire.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

The paralels are limited. (#83000)
by tomsyl

"Quagmire" was coined by a contemporary writer (I forget who at the moment) as part of an attempt to examine the details of the fairly complex political and diplomatic issues and pressures that led to intervention, escalation and withdrawal. The Vietnam war began in a completely different way, was prosecuted differently (I've never heard that Bush approves individual targets while meeting with his staff in the WH bathroom, for example), and the details of how it ended probably couldn't be reproduced Iraq. It would be a mistake to assume that Teddy Kennedy devoted any deep thoughts to using the term before he whipped it out in a speech.

My point is broader: In Vietnam we mucked around in what was already a shooting war where the North was making incurions into and preparing to invade the South. We succeeded in stopping the invasion despite some very lethal gaffes by our military command and micromanaging by a megalomaniacal President. But when he situation at home compelled a withdrawal, we made promises to the
South's leaders to get them to agree with our terms, while knowing that only force would deter the North Vietnamese from immediately breaching the promises they made as part of the Paris Accords.

Then, after all our soldiers, workers and embassy personnel were back on American soil, Congress cut off the funding and materiel the South needed to hold off the invasion; as a result, the South fell to Chinese-supplied tanks from the North with in six months. Which is when the executions, forced labor concentration camps, and massive refugee flight began.

Not a lot of parallels in all that, just the potential outcome of a withdrawal.

--

Rust never sleeps.

I think an important difference is that Vietnam was irrelevant, (#83009)
by mmghosh

economically and strategically.

And the fact that it was a continuation of a frank colonial war of occupation.

--

Manish Ghosh

Also, there is a difference in temperament to war (#83008)
by mmghosh

from the generation who grew up in WWII and the current post WWII and post Vietnam generation.

--

Manish Ghosh

We do that all the time (#82795)
by Gabriel

A security argument should be based on security concerns.

All we have appeared to do in Iraq, even if the country stabilizes (and it will, all countries do eventually) is turn what used to be an enemy of Iran into an ally.

--

Standard Disclaimer: I only speak for myself. I may or not agree with others. Ask, if you are curious. If I post about X I may not have an opinion about Y, no matter how closely related you think they are.

I don't think that will ever happen. The Arabs and Persians (#82917)
by mmghosh

have never been allies. Religion is not important here.

--

Manish Ghosh

You say AQI is the problem (#82741)
by stillnotking

and we can't leave Iraq because AQI would become a terrorist recruiting poster, etc. Then in the next breath you say the surge is working, even though it seems apparent that the surge has damped down sectarian violence and done little if anything to rein in AQI.

This is an obfuscation. Can we beat AQI? That's the only relevant question, when it comes to the propaganda value of Iraq. Is there some level of troops or some tactical approach that will completely eliminate them and thus prevent them from claiming victory when we leave?

Here's what Iraq looks like to me: the troop surge, combined with some demographic realignment, has helped keep the lid on the ethnic/religious kettle; what will happen when the lid is removed is fairly predictable, but anyway. AQI is still doing the dirty work and is responsible for an increasing share of the casualties. The logical progression, if we maintain current troop levels, is that at some point AQI will be responsible for nearly all the violence, and then they'll really be able to claim that they ran the Americans out. They'll even be able to take credit for whatever sh*t subsequently hits the fan as a result of Sunni/Shiite/Kurd conflict.

In short? AQI is a Bush creation with no obvious solution or countermeasure, and the longer we stay, the worse it gets.

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

It's not just me saying AQI is the problem (#82745)
by Bird Dog

Gen. Petraeus is saying that al Qaeda remains our biggest challenge. They are losing not just because Sunni sheiks turned against them, but because they turned to us for help in destroying this group. The plan has worked. All you have to do is look at how many civilians have died from suicide terrorist attacks. The numbers are way down. Last month, we raided an al Qaeda house and found a 16-page letter from an al Qaeda leader who was despairing about what was happening to them. I honestly don't know how you can claim that it's getting worse. But the work isn't done. Hot spots remain north of Baghdad, in Mosul and other places. They're religious extremists and many of them won't be stopped until they're jailed or dead. Such is the nature of an enemy that will use mentally-retarded girls for suicide bombers. But it's pretty clear to me that they're getting obliterated. It just isn't done yet, so "are we there yet" anti-war types continue to lament that we're not there yet.

There still remain Shiite death squads and Iranian-backed Special Groups, and there still remain groups that chose violence as a means for political advancement instead of negotiation.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

What is the metric for AQI no longer being a problem? (#82851)
by Bill White

Because of the "success" of the surge are we now committed to stay in Iraq for many, many years to come?

--

. . . and it looks as though they’ll punish the monkey and let the organ grinder go . . .

Do you have a link showing the numbers for suicide bombings? (#82748)
by stillnotking

If the numbers are indeed "way down" following the troop surge, I'd be prepared to concede that as a pretty good reason for us to remain in Iraq. My feeling was that the troop surge has been good at containing sectarian violence, not so good at containing AQI. I'd be happy to be wrong, though.

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

It's right there in the graph (#82751)
by Bird Dog

The data is taken from the Iraq Body Count, which is no friend of Bush. It takes them several months to gather and analyze the data, which is why it's only through September. You can also go to this website and do some compilations.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Did the compilations... (#82757)
by stillnotking

Here's the total number of suicide bombings by month, January 2007 to September 2007:

16
16
23
23
22
22
20
17
17

I don't see any evidence that the troop surge is affecting those numbers, which was my point. The surge has contained sectarian violence. It has done much less to contain AQI, which is reflected by the fact that (as you point out) they have an increasing share of the casualty count despite no increase in activity.

Iraq Body Count does not break casualties down by perpetrator, at least not as far as I can tell.

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

And there were 18 in October (#82759)
by Bird Dog

The point is that the lethality of the attacks has diminished, which is why are fewer civilian casualties. Over time, they been less successful at getting away with the large, spectacualar attacks.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Maybe so (#82766)
by stillnotking

although the data you've posted so far do not support this contention, but even if true, the fact remains that AQI is being less affected by the surge than the broader sectarian conflict is. From the standpoint of the propaganda war, that's not a good thing.

As BN mentioned earlier, it might even be the case that the Iraqi government would be more effective at dealing with AQI than we are. Whether that's true or not, though, it's hard to cite "we need to stay in Iraq to beat AQI" as valid logic when we are not, in fact, beating them right now.

--

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

I'm not sure policy decisions based on IBC make sense. (#82762)
by Punditus Maximus

IBC is explicitly an absolute minimum for actual casualties. They've got the most conservative methodology for counting deaths which is physically possible.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

It's a long piece, but let me just take issue with two points (#82740)
by Wagster

Are you under the impression that one wakes up on the year of an election and decides to run for U.S. Senator for Illinois? In 2002, the primary jockeying for the U.S. Senate seat was in full force. If the war had been successful (and thus popular) in 2004, the odds are that Obama would not be in the US Senate. A pol's position on the most important foreign policy issue of his day does not just fade away into the woodwork. HIs future career was plainly at stake, probably more than an incumbent's would be, since incumbents rarely lose.

Also, you term his voting to confirm Petraeus but voting against the surge as "hypocrisy". Truly, would you be more comfortable if he voted against the most qualified man just because he disagrees with the policy he's been hired to execute? You might disagree with your wife that the house needs a new coat of paint, but if it's going to happen anyway, why not hire the best painter?

This sort of fault-finding defies plain sense and weakens the rest of your points.

--

More Wagster!

GOP Management 101 (#82788)
by Model 62

You might disagree with your wife that the house needs a new coat of paint, but if it's going to happen anyway, why not hire the best painter?

To sabotage the policy so later you can tell your wife you told her it was a terrible idea in the first place?

Wait just a golderned minute, wags. (#82785)
by tomsyl

BD has pointed to what potentially is a significant misrepresentation on Obama's campaign site, and your defense doesn't hold water. First, Obama announced his candidacy in 2003; your argument that he was a candidate in his own mind when he made his 2002 speech doesn't fit the facts.

Second, he had no incumbent to defeat because he was vying for an open seat after Sen. Peter Fitzgerald retired. His major opponent in the primary, Blair Hull, was knocked out when domestic abuse allegations from his ex-wife surfaced in divorce records, which were released under pressure from the media and the Obama campaign. (Hull was never charged with anything.) His opponent in the general election was Jack Ryan*, who dropped out when - surprise! - his divorce records were unsealed over his objections and revealed allegations by his ex-wife of sordid conduct. (Ryan was never charged with anything, and was given custody of their child.)

Ryan's place was taken at the last minute by Alan Keyes. Keyes predictably was creamed by Obama, who got 75% of the vote. So the "taking his political life in his hands when he opposed the war" meme doesn't ring true; the biggest factor in him winning his Senate seat arguably was unfounded allegations by two opponents' ex-wives made in sealed divorce records.

That doesn't mean he's not a great guy who would have won the seat anyway, and I bet every campaign has made fibs and misrepresentations like this. You can argue its significance, but you have to do that based on the facts.

*I'm not defending Ryan, who by all accounts ran a sleazebag campaign.

--

Rust never sleeps.

No, Tomsyl (#82858)
by Wagster

A Senate challenge takes some prep. You need to recruit talent, line up contributors, line up support. It can't be done in one year. Al Franken has been working on his Minnesota run for at least three years already.

Besides, when he started isn't the point. If you want a national political career, your stand on the most important foreign policy decision of our generation is going to matter. If he were only now running for Senate, and he had made a bad call back in 2002, do you really think his political opponents are going to say "Nah, let it be. The Iraq invasion was a long time ago"? They would not, nor should they.

--

More Wagster!

Well, Alan Keyes and "opponent" aren't synonyms, (#82864)
by tomsyl

at least in that race.

Sorry but I'm just not buying the argument that the statements are accurate merely because he had decided to run for something higher when he made the speech. If the website says he was "a candidate for the United States Senate in 2002" when he hadn't announced for that seat, it's hard to argue that that's not spin, to put it kindly. Ame with the "I was in the midst of a US Senate campaign." And it's unnecessary spin; I presume he said what he believed when he gave the speech, so why try to give his words mystic significance by implying that he was taking his very life in his hands by uttering those words?

I think "I was right and Hillary Clinton was wrong" rings more true than "I'm a very ambitious guy, but I was willing to risk my ambitions for high office in order to tell a small group of people that I opposed the war."

--

Rust never sleeps.

Small group of people = The World (#82875)
by Wagster

When the Chicago newspapers are covering the speech.

And frankly, I think you're parsing like crazy when you say that you need to make your big announcement speech before you're a candidate for office. I think Hillary and Barack have been candidates for Prez since at least 2005, not the middle of last year, but maybe that's just me.

--

More Wagster!

I'm definitely not the one who's "parsing like crazy", wags (#82991)
by tomsyl

C'mon, we're all grownups here. The statement BD quoted from the Obama campaign site is misleading at best, even with the most charitable spin put on it. It's carefully crafted to give the impression that the guy risked all to take an unpopular position in the midst of a heated battle for a Senate seat, which isn't true.

If that's the worst resume inflation the guy's done, he would be running one of the cleanest campaigns in recent memory. But nobody's perfect, not even Barack Obama.

--

Rust never sleeps.

He wasn't planning to run against Keyes in 2002 (#82870)
by Chuchundra

He was trying to figure out how to score the Democratic nomination, which might have been difficult if he had a rep for saying boneheaded wrong things about the Iraq war.

The '04 Dem Senate field was pretty competitive since IL is a pretty blue state and the one-term GOP incumbent, Pete Fitzgerald, was seen as vulnerable. Later on, Fitz decided to retire and Jim Ryan took his slot. Keyes came later when it was determined that Obama was going to win in a walk.

--

Guard, protect and cherish your land, for there is no afterlife for a place that started out as Heaven.

Well, one reason Ryan was going to get walked on (#82873)
by tomsyl

was the divorce file angle; though as I remember there was some intra-party angle to that, too. Anyway, I'm not saying Obama had a way of knowing his opponents would fall like tenpins, just saying what happened as I remember it. (I watched because Ryan's self-immolation was fascinating in its own way, like watching an accident in slow motion. And the guy struck me as a jerk, but maybe that's just me.)

--

Rust never sleeps.

Pressuring your wife to go to sex clubs... (#82929)
by Chuchundra

...goes well beyond my definition of "jerk", but YMMV.

I remember that story well, partially because Jack Ryan's wife was Jeri Ryan, she of the well-filled silver jumpsuit on Star Trek:Voyager.

Keyes was picked because Obama at that point was considered fairly unbeatable and nobody else was stepping up to take the job. I think the GOP solons of IL decided that, since they were going to lose anyway, they'd throw Keyes into the meat grinder since he could drum up his own financing.

In retrospect, it was a supremely stupid idea. Even if the race was all but lost, they could have run some up-and-comer from the GOP ranks to give him or her a little experience in a statewide election. Plus, having the nutjob Keyes representing their party was just terrible.

--

Guard, protect and cherish your land, for there is no afterlife for a place that started out as Heaven.

I'm not defending Ryan, but those were allegations, (#82992)
by tomsyl

not proven facts. In fact, IIRC he got custody of their kid when everything was said and done, suggesting the claims of his ex-wife either weren't proven or weren't deemed significant by the divorce court.

That said, he sucks as a person and a politician as far as I could tell.

--

Rust never sleeps.

*nods* (#82983)
by M Scott Eiland

If I had been living in Illinois at that time, I most definitely would have voted for Obama--if for no other reason than to express my disdain for the pitiful state of the Republican Party there insofar as Keyes was the best candidate they could come up with. California Republicans are a pretty sorry bunch these days, but even they haven't sunk that far.

--

Yes, the silver jumpsuit. . . . (#82934)
by Trickster

That series went downhill in a hurry once they put her in the brown jumpsuit. It just wasn't the same.

In October 2002, (#82746)