Like I said in an earlier post, it was wrong to remove Zelaya in the manner that they did, and the interim government has expanded on the wrongness by suspending certain rights. If they want to improve their situation, they should remove the interim suspension of rights and get going with a new election. But ousted President Zelaya was no better, and there's a fair case to be made that Zelaya was trying his own form of coup. He started this crisis, and the Honduran people don't want him back.
That is because most have tired of his rule, and blame him for the constitutional crisis that preceded the coup. It was precipitated by his attempt to emulate Mr Chávez by organising a referendum to call a constituent assembly, which he seemed to hope would allow him to remain in power beyond January, when his four-year term ends. Under Honduras’s constitution, only Congress can call referendums and it was against one. Mr Zelaya went ahead anyway. When the head of the armed forces refused to carry out an order to distribute the ballot papers, the president sacked him. The Supreme Court reinstated the general, and the electoral tribunal ordered the ballots to be confiscated. In response, Mr Zelaya led a group of supporters to an air force base where they carted off the ballots. He instructed public employees to collect signatures for the constituent assembly. Hours before voting was to begin, the army seized the president.The army said he was arrested for defying the Supreme Court, though no explanation has been given for why he was not brought before a Honduran judge. The legislature then voted almost unanimously to install Mr Micheletti, a Liberal rival of Mr Zelaya, as his successor. Congress has no constitutional power to remove the president. Mr Micheletti produced a curiously worded resignation letter which Mr Zelaya denies having written or signed.
These events took the region by surprise. Honduras, although poor and ravaged by corruption and violent gangs, had a seemingly stable democracy. But signs of strife were there. Mr Zelaya’s presidency has been marked by a rise in crime, corruption scandals and economic populism. He pushed through big wage increases for teachers and government workers. When money ran short, he turned to Mr Chávez for petrodollars. Despite more than $100m in Venezuelan aid, the government has stopped paying some suppliers.
A former presidential advisor and minister of culture says it wasn't a coup, and a Honduran supreme court judge defended Zelaya's ouster. Alvaro Vargas Llosa blames the coup on Zelaya, and I can't say I disagree with him. The liberals' favorite conservative, Daniel Larison, is not on the Zelaya side. For me, I'm not convinced that the removal was legal, but perhaps it was just, provided that suspended rights are unsuspended and the government gets going on an election. Edward Schumacher-Matos has a fair perspective:
The deeper and more troubling error in the current rush to judgment on poor Honduras has to do with the philosophical nature of democracy itself. The democracy fundamentalists -- from the right, demanding intervention in Iran, for example; and from the left, demanding intervention in Honduras -- have become so fanatical in their moralism that they have lost sight of the fact that democracy is not the same as legitimacy.The distinctions are crucial. The threat growing in Latin America, Asia and Africa, according to Freedom House, is not dictatorship but what political theorists call illiberal democracy. Venezuela is the poster case in which a president, Hugo Chávez, is democratically elected and then goes about, through democratic referendums and Congress, constraining freedom by changing laws and institutions. Chávez and others like him create the "tyranny of the majority" that theorists behind the American Constitution warned was the weakness of democracy by itself, without constitutional liberalism protecting the rights of the individual.
The real issue in most of the region's past military coups has been the failure of the political systems that led to them. The dirty secret about the region's history since at least World War II is that most coups were popular, carried out not by an avaricious military seeking power but by civilians banging on the barracks doors demanding intervention to halt political or economic chaos.
Fernández de Kirchner, for example, conveniently ignores that the coups that overthrew Juan Perón in the 1950s and Isabel Perón in 1976 were met by millions of Argentines celebrating in the streets. What gives a coup a bad name is the abuses that usually follow once the military is in power.
Which brings us back to Honduras. Brodi Kemp, a researcher at Harvard's Safra Foundation Center for Ethics, says: "You could argue that Zelaya gave up his claim to moral legitimacy when he went outside the constitution. If you accept that, then what do the other political actors do? . . . Sometimes an act is legitimate even though it proceeded illegitimately."
Polls and the tepid demonstrations in Zelaya's favor indicate that he has little popular support. That is not reason enough for a coup, but the many factors suggest that while his removal should have been better handled, some humility is called for in helping Honduras work through a constitutional crisis.
President Obama was correct in calling Zelaya's ouster illegal, while Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton declined to call the action a coup -- in hopes of bringing Zelaya back into government but with wings clipped. In this instance, the U.S. government played the morally right hand.
Opinionjournal has a similar take, and they note the influence and meddling of the Venezuelan wannabe dictator:
Mr. Chávez has also exported this brand of one-man-one-vote-once democracy throughout the region. He's succeeded to varying degrees in Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina and Nicaragua, where his allies have stretched the law and tried to dominate the media and the courts. Mexico escaped in 2006 when Felipe Calderón linked his leftwing opponent to chavismo and barely won the presidency.In Honduras Mr. Chávez funneled Veneuzelan oil money to help Mr. Zelaya win in 2005, and Mr. Zelaya has veered increasingly left in his four-year term. The Honduran constitution limits presidents to a single term, which is scheduled to end in January. Mr. Zelaya was using the extralegal referendum as an act of political intimidation to force the Congress to allow a rewrite of the constitution so he could retain power. The opposition had pledged to boycott the vote, which meant that Mr. Zelaya would have won by a landslide.
Such populist intimidation has worked elsewhere in the region, and Hondurans are understandably afraid that, backed by Chávez agents and money, it could lead to similar antidemocratic subversion there. In Tegucigalpa yesterday, thousands demonstrated against Mr. Zelaya, and new deputy foreign minister Marta Lorena Casco told the crowd that "Chávez consumed Venezuela, then Bolivia, after that Ecuador and Nicaragua, but in Honduras that didn't happen."
It's no accident that Mr. Chávez is now leading the charge to have Mr. Zelaya reinstated, and on Monday the Honduran traveled to a leftwing summit in Managua in one of Mr. Chávez's planes. The U.N. and Organization of American States are also threatening the tiny nation with ostracism and other punishment if it doesn't readmit him. Meanwhile, the new Honduran government is saying it will arrest Mr. Zelaya if he returns. This may be the best legal outcome, but it also runs the risk of destabilizing the country. We recall when the Clinton Administration restored Bertrand Aristide to Haiti, only to have the country descend into anarchy.
As for the Obama Administration, it seems eager to "meddle" in Honduras in a way Mr. Obama claimed was counterproductive in Iran. Yet the stolen election in Iran was a far clearer subversion of democracy than the coup in Honduras. As a candidate, Mr. Obama often scored George W. Bush's foreign policy by saying democracy requires more than an election -- a free press, for example, civil society and the rule of law rather than rule by the mob. It's a point worth recalling before Mr. Obama hands a political victory to the forces of chavismo in Latin America.
Meantime, the interim Honduran government has told the OAS to pound sand.
Honduras' interim government announced Friday that the country decided to quit from the Organization of American States (OAS).In a letter to the OAS read by Honduras' Vice Minister of International Relations Martha Lorena de Casco, it said "This government believes that inside the organization (of the OAS), there is no room for Honduras, for the states that love its freedom and defend its sovereignty."
Ed Morrissey goes further:
The government in Tegulcigalpa says they will not negotiate Honduran sovereignty. That comes at a price, though. The poor nation relies on OAS aid as well as OAS-influenced support from other nations. By withdrawing from the regional assembly, Honduras will lose hundreds of millions of dollars they desperately need, especially in this economy.However, it seems more than odd that the OAS has made such a fetish out of Zelaya while they’re preparing to admit Cuba, with its military junta firmly in place for the last 50 years. After all, even if the Hondurans botched the removal of Zelaya — and they did — the legislature and the courts have solid grounds on which to remove him. And while the military conducted the arrest and the extra-legal expulsion of Zelaya from his country, they did not seize power and install a military junta. Instead, they followed the orders of the civilian government, which retained political power all along.
If Cuba belongs in the OAS, then Honduras belongs as well, and on their own terms. If the OAS and the Obama administration want to defend democracy, they should stop isolating the democracy that fumbled the legal and justifiable removal of a renegade executive and focus on the dictatorship in Havana.
Cuba has no business being in the OAS. The organization is supposed about a democratic commitment:
Democracy is the cornerstone of the OAS — a necessary condition for countries’ participation and a foundation for all of its activities. The Inter-American Democratic Charter sets out a simple, clear declaration: “The peoples of the Americas have a right to democracy and their governments have an obligation to promote and defend it.”
Cuba has no respect for the OAS "cornerstone", and neither does Chavez or Ortega. If you look at where the member nations are in terms of freedom, you'll see that the loudest squawkers about Zelaya's removal are the leaders of the least free countries, the U.S. excepted.
The Free
Bahamas: Free, 1 on PR and CL *
Barbados: Free, 1 on PR and CL
Canada: Free, 1 on PR and CL
Chile: Free, 1 on PR and CL
Costa Rica: Free, 1 on PR and CL
Dominica: Free, 1 on PR and CL
Dominican Republic: Free, 1 on PR and CL
Saint Kitts and Nevis: Free, 1 on PR and CL
Saint Lucia: Free, 1 on PR and CL
United States of America: Free, 1 on PR and CL
Uruguay: Free, 1 on PR and CL
Belize: Free, 1 on PR and 2 on CL
Grenada: Free, 1 on PR and 2 on CL
Panama: Free, 1 on PR and 2 on CL
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines: Free, 2 on PR and 1 on CL
Antigua and Barbuda: Free, 2 on PR and CL
Argentina: Free, 2 on PR and CL
Brazil: Free, 2 on PR and CL
Suriname: Free, 2 on PR and CL
Trinidad and Tobago: Free, 2 on PR and CL
El Salvador: Free, 2 on PR and 3 on CL
Guyana: Free, 2 on PR and 3 on CL
Jamaica: Free, 2 on PR and 3 on CL
Mexico: Free, 2 on PR and 3 on CL
Peru: Free, 2 on PR and 3 on CL (resisted Chavez)
The Partly Free
Bolivia: Partly free, 3 on PR and CL (Chavez toady)
Colombia: Partly free, 3 on PR and CL
Ecuador: Partly free, 3 on PR and CL (Chavez toady)
Honduras: Partly free, 3 on PR and CL
Nicaragua: Partly free, worsening, 3 on PR and CL (Chavez toady)
Paraguay: Partly free, 3 on PR and CL
Guatemala: Partly free, 3 on PR and 4 on CL
Venezuela: Partly free, worsening, 4 on PR and CL
Haiti: Partly free, improving, 4 on PR and 5 on CL
The Unfree
Cuba: Not free, 7 on PR and CL
If the OAS were serious about its cornerstones, it would rebuff Cuba immediately and take a harder look at the bottom of the freedom barrel.
* PR = Political rights, and CL = Civil liberties
[Update:] The referendum that Zelaya initiated was ruled illegal by the Honduran supreme court because referendums to amend the constitution must have congressional approval. Fausta explains:
I have not seen the ballots printed in Venezuela that were to be used in last Sunday’s referendum that Mel Zelaya had contrived, however, Honduran daily La Prensa reports the referendum question,
¿Está de acuerdo que en las elecciones generales de 2009 se instale una cuarta urna en la cual el pueblo decida la convocatoria a una asamblea nacional constituyente? = Sí…….ó………..No.(my translation: If you quote it, please credit me and link to this post)
Do you agree that a fourth ballot box be installed through which the people will decide to convene a constitutional assembly? Yes…….or………..No.
This is in direct violation of the country’s Constitution, which forbids the President from calling for changes to the Constitution. Articles 373 and 374 of the Honduran Constitution specifically state that amendments to the Constitution be approved by 2/3 of the votes in Congress AND specifically forbid any President of the country from extending term limits. The Constitution also says these two articles can not be amended.The same article at La Prensa states that Zelaya prepared a decree ordering all institutions of the State to bring about the project, which Zelaya deemed "an official activity of the Government of the Republic". This means that the notion that Zelaya’s referendum was non-binding is false. Zelaya clearly meant to make his Sunday referendum official and binding. La Prensa says the decree, dated June 26, was published Saturday June 27.
There was no "non-binding" language on Zelaya's Chavez-manufactured ballot. Here's a translation of Articles 373 and 374.
Title VII
Of the Reform and the Immunity of the Constitution
Chapter I
Of the Reform of the Constitution
Article 373: Constitutional reform can only be declared by the National Congress, in regular sessions, with a 2/3s vote of its members. The decree to be voted on will specify the article or articles to be reformed, and it must be concurred by the subsequent session of Congress by a 2/3s vote before it takes effect.Article 374: It can not be reformed, under any circumstances, the previous article, this article, the Constitutional articles related to the form of government, the national territory, Presidential term-limits, the prohibition of a President to be re-elected, and the requirements and prohibitions on who can and can not be President.
Zelaya's ballot was also illegal because it did not specify which articles he proposed amending.

Congressional Coup Caucus
(#173177)Read my sig.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
And this is wrong because...
(#173306)...why?
What's wrong with saying that Zelaya is a stooge of a Castro protege? What's wrong with pointing out hypocrisy of the leader of a nation, with worsening freedoms, actively meddling in another nation's affairs?
"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy
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parentStupid
(#173343)not wrong.
Please keep it up.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentSo it's stupid to point out that Zelaya is a Chavez stooge?
(#173367)How? Zelaya is a Chavez stooge.
How is it stupid to point out that the Venezuelan wannabe dictator is meddling in Honduran affairs?
"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy
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parentNo
(#173368)It's stupid to cite "Whereas since his removal, Mr. Zelaya has been flown around the hemisphere by Hugo Chavez's private jets." in a Congressional resolution.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentWhich is another way of saying that Zelaya is a Chavez toady
(#173371)So if you agree with me that Zelaya is a Chavez stooge, and if Congressional Republicans point out that Zelaya is behaving like a Chavez stooge, how is that stupid?
"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy
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parentA resolution that included a citation calling Zelaya bad names
(#173372)based on his association with Chavez would be just as childish and stupid as the actual citation they wrote in support of the coup, which I highlighted. IMHO, YVMV.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentLike with Iran,
(#173392)in my opinion, there's never a bad time to speak truth to power, oppression or tyranny. What are Zelaya or his defenders going to say? They can't say, "no, he's not a toady!" when he's being whisked around in Chavez's jets. The sooner he's revealed for the stooge he is, the better.
"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy
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parentClarification please
(#173347)who would you like to keep up the stupidity, the Congressional Coup Caucus or Bird Dog? They are not one in the same.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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parentBy in large, and for all intensive purposes
(#173352)... I think "one and the same" is the idiom you're looking for.
;^D
Bene vixit, bene qui latuit
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parentThanks
(#173355)Vin Jr.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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parentOh, that's it.
(#173357)It is on.
Bene vixit, bene qui latuit
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parentI dread to think...
(#173409)...what this could lead to.
And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
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parentRead my sig.
(#173350).
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentNot clear enough
(#173354)and if I stay a mod further actions like this from you will result in a warning from me.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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parentNot clear enough
(#173358)What specific 'action' do you claim breaches the rules?
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentAllow me to clarify.
(#173360)It is not clear which party in question you are calling "stupid". If it's some external pundit or political leader, you're ok. If it's BD, you're crossing the line, and any disagreement with his PoV can be expressed in a better and non-PR-violating fashion.
-“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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parent#173350 not clear enough?
(#173363)Clearly there is at least one hair trigger in play on this thread.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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parentOr you could, just possibly....
(#173366)...have spelled it out and left no confusion. But hey, have it your way.
-“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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parentWhat's Your Point?
(#173244)Being ferried around by Fidel Jr. sort of makes the point that he's a Chavez stooge, doesn't it? It reminds me of how every time the Democrats in Congress would vote to block Contra funds back in the 1980's, Daniel Ortega would end up in Moscow begging for more money from the Kremlin as if the vote had stamped his passport for him.
As for your sig, most conservatives do understand just how much of an idiot Matthew Yglesias is.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--from Ulysses, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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parentThe crazy thing
(#173195)is that the Venezuelan jet showed up in Honduras airspace uninvited. Even circled the airfield a couple of times. Can you imagine if a foreign government decided to send a plane to the US after the authorities told them not to? They'd be shot down.
I guess Hondurans are more civilized.
This place is my vacation.
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parentThey Knew The UN Sec Gen Was On Board
(#173198)Even granting that the SOB is a Ortega stooge, splashing that plane would escalate the situation something fierce--I doubt the US would shoot a plane down where the UN Sec Gen was known to be onboard even if it was flashing a North Korean ID, unless it seemed to be heading for a target rather than a landing.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--from Ulysses, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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parentOh, I don't think they ever considered that
(#173201)Still, how many countries would allow the plane of a quasi enemy (Chavez threatened to overthrow the govt) to just show up, uninvited?
This place is my vacation.
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parentIf Chavez Had Been On Board. . .
(#173344). . .methinks that a "nervous pilot" would have oh-so-accidentally fired a missile or two, and the Honduran government would have had a "so sorry for the mix-up" press statement ready before the fried chunks of Cindy Sheehan's boy toy hit the ground. It all would have been very tragic--particularly if it meant we had to put up with Chavez's ugly mug on t-shirts worn by idiot teenagers for the next fifty years.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--from Ulysses, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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parentI agree, his mode of....
(#173178)...transportation should be of no account. Whereas his being a lefty pig is plenty condemnation enough. :^)
-“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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parentPlan C
(#172818)Kudos to the new government in Honduras for coming up with a plan that accomplished their purpose (keeping Zelaya from landing in Honduras with the Ortega stooge playing at being UN Secretary General) without either:
--shooting down the plane and causing a big mess, or;
--caving in and letting the plane land, in spite of the pressure to do so.
Nicely done.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--from Ulysses, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
Actually, playing the drug card was brilliant.
(#172939)Once the people running the country "leaked" that Zedaya supposedly was letting coke-laden airplanes land and refuel in Honduras and that the DEA had been given proof of that, they hamstrung Obama and Clinton. If that actually was happening and the DEA knew about it, how can our government assist in returning a dope lord to power? Clever.
Politicians spend our money like a pimp with only a week to live. CJ Boxx
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parentdrugs? in central america?
(#172942)i guess the military wasn't getting their cut....
:)
Member of the Forvm Five
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parentNicely done?
(#172820)Can I just get you on record as to how many protesters are allowed to be gunned down before a "nicely done" wouldn't apply?
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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parentI'll go on the record
(#172891)with 13, and that's just because it's unlucky.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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parentAccording to the Miami Herald
(#172845)The man in question was trying to climb a security fence:
http://bit.ly/4sVrH6
whatever your views about the crisis, why would anyone want to climb a security fence in front of a bunch of probably poorly trained Honduran security forces?
It seems the best solution for this is to have early elections.
This place is my vacation.
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parentAttacking An Airport By Force Will Get You Shot Anywhere
(#172821)Under the circumstances, one dead (or several) was a rather strong indication that the Honduran authorities were trying to minimize casualties. There's a difference between peaceful protest and violently trying to storm an airport.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--from Ulysses, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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parentCite please?
(#172822)What violent actions did the protesters take, and how many security forces were injured or killed?
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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parentTrying To Break Through Police Barricades Is A Violent Action. .
(#172824). . .and the matter of police casualties is irrelevant, no matter how much they might be rooting for them over at dKos.
Trot your whining comments off to someone who cares.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--from Ulysses, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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parentWow, really?
(#172827)The NYT cites an AP photographer saying he was shot in the head -- that sounds like a deliberate kill. So I guess trying to break through police barricades is a capital crime?
Answer the question: how many protesters can be gunned down before a "nicely done" doesn't apply? You can call the (apparently unarmed) protesters "violent" if it makes you feel better, but stop dodging and give us a number.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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parent"Sounds Like A Deliberate Kill"
(#172831)Or it sounds like a person in a mob of people got hit in an exposed area--the head.
And your demands for an answer mean nothing to me--run along and nag someone else. Being a member of a mob charging through armed, badly outnumbered police tends to be dangerous. It's best not to do it.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--from Ulysses, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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parentRight, because shooting at head level
(#172836)and hitting someone in the head would just be an unfortunate accident, I guess.
I'll just put you as considering "nicely done" the lethal shooting of any unspecified number of protesters... all in the service of maintaining law and order, of course.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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parentThanks For Sharing -nt-
(#172837).
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--from Ulysses, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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parentYour suppositions appear to lack a factual basis
(#173260)Do you wish to reconsider your statements that "one dead (or several) was a rather strong indication that the Honduran authorities were trying to minimize casualties" and "Or it sounds like a person in a mob of people got hit in an exposed area--the head"?
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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parentStephen Ferry Is Full Of Crap
(#173263)Multiple, aimed bursts of automatic fire directed at a crowd of people would have led to a pile of bodies, not just one death. I suspect you know that.
Try peddling your propaganda to a more gullible audience.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--from Ulysses, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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parentPosting rules violation
(#173271)I linked and quoted a Washington Post story. "Try peddling your propaganda to a more gullible audience" is a personal attack.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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parentNot At All
(#173274)"Propaganda" characterizes the story, not the poster--particularly since you acknowledge the obvious fact that you didn't write it yourself. "Peddling" is a neutral term.
And two dead is not a credible result from what Ferry describes. He's lying about that, and that makes the rest of his account non-credible.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--from Ulysses, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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parentNo, that's pretty insulting nt
(#173277).
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentAgreed
(#173314)With the questions about the moderator election still outstanding it isn't anything I plan to act on, but I do see it as a borderline posting rules violation. Scott, the source was the Washington Post, not media matters or talkleft, etc. While I think you're on solid ground questioning if concentrated automatic weapons fire into a crowd would result in only a handful of deaths, the way you went about it does not encourage civil discussion. As to your complaint about Brendanm98's line of inquiry being an initial violation I don't see it. I don't find his outrage very convincing, but neither do I find it to be a violation. This is how I see it, and if I actually do serve as a mod for the next 6 months I'd give you a warning for similar actions. If that bothers anyone there is still time to change things.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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parentI will cop to being somewhat uncivil
(#173317)and I apologize to MSE for that.
This incivility was in fact a reaction to what I perceived (initially and then continuing throughout the thread) as a lack of concern over the shootings. There are various sources providing various accounts of what happened but I have yet to find one that would support an interpretation of these events as "the Honduran authorities were trying to minimize casualties."
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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parentPersonally I think
(#173318)"the Honduran authorities were trying to minimize casualties" is supported by historical precedent. I'm not aware of very many coups (ousting of leaders, whatever) in Latin America, Africa, or SE Asia that result in only a few deaths.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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parentI was referring specifically to the incident at the airport
(#173321)It is certainly possible that new information could show the military acted entirely appropriately, but the mainstream media reporting of which I am aware suggests to me the deaths and injuries were excessive.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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parentAnd I was referring to the entire situation
(#173323)to which I consider the incident at the airport a sideshow.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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parentFalse
(#173276)You stated "peddling your propaganda" -- this clearly associates me with what you perceive to be propaganda.
Peddling is clearly not a neutral term with respect to propaganda.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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parentYawn
(#173278)Whine about it to the new moderators--though given your rather uncivil comments earlier in this subthread*, I wouldn't want to call their attention to it if I were you.
* such as this: I'll just put you as considering "nicely done" the lethal shooting of any unspecified number of protesters... all in the service of maintaining law and order, of course.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--from Ulysses, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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parent"Trot your whining comments off to someone who cares." (nt)
(#173281).
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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parentThis time, Larison is right.
(#172801)Even if he is, as you so aptly put it, the "liberals' favorite conservative."
And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
Excellent diary BD
(#172744)Completely agree.
Zelaya is the main culprit of this mess
This place is my vacation.
the victim of a coup d'etat
(#172752)How is Zelaya no worse than those suspending the civil rights now? To back up this assertion, Bird Dog linked to this page which states right off the top:
President calls for a vote on having a referendum to allow his reelection
http://devilsexcrement.com/2009/06/29/why-is-zelayas-constitutional-coup-attempt-ignored-by-the-world/
This is not true. It's not what the referendum asks. I can't see how calling for a referendum is equal to kidnapping a leader, suspending rights and plunging a nation into turmoil. How is Zelaya responsible? He appears to be the victim of a coup d'etat.
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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parentTrue, but what Zelaya did was still illegal
(#172766)The legislature is the body that authorizes referendums, not the president. He still broke the law, he was still trying illegally trying to change the country's constitutional framework, and he was still trying to alter the balance of power and the system of checks and balances in his favor. If he were a more competent and successful leader, and if he didn't choose to become a Chavez stooge, then he might still be in power today, but it's never just one thing. The people are smart enough to figure out where he was going and what he was going to do.
"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy
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parentIt's all relative.
(#172773)He still broke the law, he was still trying illegally trying to change the country's constitutional framework, and he was still trying to alter the balance of power and the system of checks and balances in his favor.
The same could be said about bush regarding FISA, torture, renditions, and a bunch of other stuff. Somehow I doubt you would have supported a military expulsion from the country. I know I wouldn't have, and that's despite the fact that I think he was impeachable.
At the end of the day, you don't like Zelaya because he is a pro-Chavez lefty. Being no fan of Chavez, I can certainly sympathize with that view. I have no doubt he would ultimately damage Honduras.
That said, Honduran right-wingers don't get my trust either. Honduras has been disastrously run by them also.
As in Venezuela, you need to understand that the ultimate source of power for left-wing populist autocrats is the long and sorry history of radically unfair economic policy when the countries are in the hands of either the military or the resource-owning right-wing elites.
It's not about Chavez, or Zelaya, or even Castro. It's about the conditions that make people such as them appealing in the first place. This mechanism is universal: See Lousiana and Huey Long.
My country, right or wrong is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying... It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.' -Chesterton
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parentWho says I supported how Zelaya was removed?
(#172813)In fact, I explicitly said that the manner in which he was removed was illegal and "bad form".
What I care about here, and in other posts, is not left or right, but freedom. I detest Chavez not so much because he's a socialist per se, but because he and his ideology are taking freedoms away from Venezuelans. I detest Ahmadinejad-Khameini for similar reasons, and same with the Taliban.
"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy
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parentHmmm
(#172814)Since we appear to have reversed roles in this diary let me say that I do support Zelaya being removed. Given the reality at the time I think the SC and the military made the right choice.
This place is my vacation.
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parentI don't think we're that far apart
(#172897)I supported his removal, which appears justified under Article 239 of their constitution. My disagreement lies with the manner of his removal.
"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy
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parentI think this is generally correct
(#172812)But even 'rich' countries like Argentina, with historically well developed middle classes, seem to like populists. A Latin thing to some extent?
This place is my vacation.
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parentZelaya is the main culprit
(#172756)because he started this mess.
It doesn't really matter what the referendum asks. It was ruled illegal by the judiciary and that should have been enough. Zelaya broke the law by continuing to pursue the referendum even after the courts told him to stop. I happen to think that Gore winning the popular vote should have been enough to make him president. There are a great many excellent constitutional lawyers that argue that Bush vs Gore was wrongly decided. Yet none of that matters. Once the SC ruled, that was that.
And Zelaya broke the law repeatedly. Worse, he made very clear there was no stopping him. When the Attorney General said Zelaya was under investigation for all of this, Zelaya's response was to dare him to arrest him, that the police would never carry out that order. When the judiciary ordered the ballots in question confiscated, Zelaya went with a mob, and stormed a military base to recover them.
The SC gave the military an order and they followed it. The only illegal thing the military did (and they openly recognize it) was to expel Zelaya. They claim they did so, knowing it was illegal, in order to to avoid bloodshed. It was this that led to talk of a coup. If they had arrested him but kept him in Honduras it would be considered an internal political affair.
This place is my vacation.
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parentrestriction on freedom of expression
(#172830)How are we certain that Zelaya broke the law in pursuing this referendum? That is a question that is decided in a properly constituted court. Zelaya appears to have been denied this fundamental right.
Is it really true that the courts in Honduras have the right to stop a referendum from taking place? That seems an intolerable restriction on freedom of expression, whether or not it is in adherence with their constitution.
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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parentWe are 100% sure
(#172843)Because Honduras' judiciary, the only institution qualified to decide that, said so.
Zelaya didn't have to agree with the judicial rulings. He didn't have to like them. He could even argue they were wrongly decided. But he did have to obey them.
This place is my vacation.
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parentSometimes you have to
(#172856)Sometimes you have to disobey the law to see justice done. Sometimes courts can be over-reaching, deciding on issues where they have no business. The decision that the referendum in question is unconstitutional appears to be such a case. Directing the military to kidnap the president, forge a letter of resignation, and suspend civil rights are more examples of judicial over-reach.
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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parentYes, sometimes you have to
(#172872)But in this case what is the rationale that simply requires Zelaya to ignore all other of his country's institutions to push for a constitutional change allowing presidential reelection?
Just what does Honduras so desperately need two-term presidents for, that it justifies a president using mob rule?
This place is my vacation.
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parentThe rationale
(#172888)The rationale is that in a democracy, the people are the ultimate arbitrators. Having a referendum is not mob rule. It is rather the pinnacle of democratic expression, denied here by people determined to silence it, all the while turning a blind eye to real crimes such as kidnapping that no self-respecting judge or legislator would ever countenance. These judges may look fine in their black cloaks and white wigs but the justice they dispense is a sham. Who is in custody over the abduction of Zelaya? Who has been charged?
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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parentBut Honduras is not a direct
(#172895)democracy, and there are rules laid out for how the people of Honduras get to decide what. Just like any other modern nation. If Obama chose to do something similar in the US, and also decided to ignore the judiciary's rulings, it would not be a valid excuse to claim the people have a right to vote. We have rules for a reason and in Honduras the arbiters of what is legal or not made clear Zelaya broke the law.
The problem with your line of argumEnt is that it only works if you are OK with Zelaya deciding, by himself, what is legal or not, what rulings he will respect or not.
This place is my vacation.
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parentWhen you can answer that question
(#172902)I asked earlier if it really was illegal for the president to have called a referendum. You assured my that it was illegal because the judges said it was illegal. That doesn't satisfy me, any more than the same judges declaring the kidnapping of a president a legitimate function of the nation's military.
I'm a little familiar with the US constitution, but I'm sure there is nothing in it stopping Obama from holding a national non-binding referendum. If US Supreme Court ordered the military to seize Obama and spirit him off to another country, they would certainly be over-stepping their role.
I'm even less familiar with the Honduras constitution, but the issue as Bird Dog would have you believe is not correct. I already pointed out in my first comment on the thread how this issue is being dishonestly presented. I can't understand how you can look to these judges and respect their legal opinions as legitimate. I asked before, who has been arrested in connection with the abduction of the president? When you can answer that question, then you can talk about the rule of law.
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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parentA referendum initiated by the president is illegal
(#172920)Using Blaise's source, which should be acceptable to you given its friendliness to socialists:
This was an easy call for the judges to make, and it's unfortunate that Zelaya was so disrespectful of the rule of law. He pushed the system of checks and balances to crisis levels, and he got checked.
"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy
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parentyou put too much stock
(#173006)This is from the Wikipedia:
On June 23, 2009 the National Congress passed a law forbidding holding referenda and plebiscites less than 180 days before the next general election; as the next elections are set for 29 November 2009. Since this bill was passed after the referendum was scheduled, Zelaya rejected its applicability to this case. This bill would also be an impediment to the referendum Micheletti suggested to let the electorate decide whether or not to let Zelaya return.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Honduran_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
If the law prevents Zelaya from holding a referendum, why bother with this kind of maneuvering? It doesn't make sense. I don't think you are well served by your sources.
I think you put too much stock in the legal probity of Honduran judges and legislators. Until they charge those responsible for the abduction of the president, the forging of his resignation letter etc, I don't think we should be looking to them for answers on what is legal and what isn't.
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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parentOr are you putting too much stock in wikipedia?
(#173022)At the top of the wikipedia entry: "The neutrality of this article's title and/or subject matter is disputed." IPS is a news service for good socialists.
The IPS piece said that, "referendums and plebiscites were incorporated in the last constitutional reform, approved in 2002." Zelaya was trying to circumvent the constitution and the rule of law, and the legislature tried to put up a roadblock, which he ignored.
"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy
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parentI'm not denying
(#173028)I'm not denying there wasn't a political conflict between the president and the congress. That's pretty obvious. Something you missed in your little summary is that under the instructions of the courts, the president was abducted and his successor was sworn in on the basis of forged letter of resignation. If it's the rule of law you are interested in, how can this escape your attention?
By the way, I'm still not clear on how the referendum violates the constitution. Can you link to anything more specific?
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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parentIt didn't escape my attention,
(#173062)hence the title of this diary, hence the link to my previous diary, and I was agreeable with this link where the author said "President Obama was correct in calling Zelaya's ouster illegal." The issue going forward is the remedy, and mine is an immediate restoration of rights and a new election as soon as possible.
As for the IPS link, the wording is plain that the Congress and Supreme Electoral Court are the bodies that initiate referendums, not the president. I take what they said to be true because they're not the only source that said this. Therefore, it is obvious to me that the president created a constitutional crisis and violated the rule of law by ignoring the other two branches of government and defying the multiple rulings of his country's supreme court, compounded by his illegal firings of defense staff.
"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy
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parentIsn't that fundamental
(#173066)The IPS link is simply a press report. It is not necessarily authoritative. You linked to several others including a Honduran legislator and a supreme court judge. Neither of them claimed that it is unconstitutional or illegal for a president to initiate a referendum. What is it? Are you now convinced on the strength of reading one article in the press that the experts you yourself have chosen to present as authoritative are ill-informed? Or do you glom onto the last thing you've read and believe it unquestioningly?
Where is it written that a president can't initiate a referendum? Or fire his defence minister? If the laws that you say exist, do exist, they must be written down somewhere. And someone opining in a press article is just not enough. If I went to court as a prosecutor accusing someone of crimes defined only in vaguely worded press cuttings, I'd deserve to be disbarred.
Maybe Zelaya is in the wrong here, but it's conceivable to me that it's the court and the legislature that is in the wrong. It's this side after all that has abducted the president, sworn in a successor on the basis of a phony letter of resignation and suspended civil rights for the entire nation. When stuff like this was happening in Iran, you were enraged. It was only a couple of weeks ago. Now you're falling all over yourself with a determination to believe the very worst of a man you know almost nothing about. (Like the vitriol you reflexively directed to the courageous and kind-hearted American angel, Cynthia McKinney.)
If you really believe that the ouster was illegal, why don't you call for the perpetrators to be held to account for their crimes? Isn't that fundamental to the rule of law?
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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parentZelaya doesn't get to decide which court rulings...
(#173132)...he can ignore and which ones he will abide by. An American president can believe that Roe v. Wade is wrong, but that doesn't give him the right to ban abortions just because he has really strong feelings about it. Like I said in the diary, the interim government was wrong by suspending rights and for the manner in which Zelaya was removed. But why should the former president's acts have precedence over the country's two other branches of government? He started this, and he pushed the situation to the breaking point.
In the case of Iran, there is a significant amount of evidence that the Guardian Council violated their own rules and committed electoral fraud. Gaming the system by cutting 475 candidates down to 4 just wasn't enough for them. The Guardian Council followed up by shutting down the people's right to speak and assemble, and now the country is a de facto police state. Why would you approve of any of Khameini-Ahmadinejad's acts? Honestly, I have no idea why you're whining about my diaries on Iran. Why do you have such a problem with my calling for a new election that is open and transparent? Or spotlighting the violence that is happening against protesters? I thought you were all for democracy.
Oh, and another Karnak Award for you for saying, "now you're falling all over yourself with a determination to believe the very worst of a man you know almost nothing about." Sheesh, man. Learn how to have a conversation already.
Oh, and I didn't direct "vitriol" at McKinney, reflexively or otherwise. The accurate word is ridicule.
If you really believe that the ouster was illegal, why don't you call for the perpetrators to be held to account for their crimes? Isn't that fundamental to the rule of law?
So the country's supreme court should come out with a ruling to arrest itself? Why do you disagree with the remedy of unsuspending the temporary suspension of rights and having a new election as soon as possible? I thought you were all for democracy.
"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy
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parentAre these court rulings legitimate?
(#173239)Are these court rulings legitimate? If not then they should properly be ignored.
I posted here to question how we know the president acted illegally. Gabriel told me we know we know because that's what the court tells us. But courts have to be guided according to law. So what was the legal foundation? I've asked this sincerely, and you seem confused and still unable to provide an answer. This is the only question that interests me and you miss it completely.
But why should the former president's acts have precedence over the country's two other branches of government? He started this, and he pushed the situation to the breaking point.
Well, if the other two branches are over-reaching, and their actions illegitimate, (and you admit this) then what choice is there but to oppose them? Starting this and pushing a situation to a breaking point are not in themselves wrong, even though it's two branches against one.
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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parentRead my update
(#173304)It's been there since yesterday. The Honduran supreme court is a legitimate body and they made a legitimate ruling. The country's attorney general is a legitimately appointed attorney general, and he came to the same conclusion, and legitimately so. The Honduran Congress is a legitimately elected representative body, and they came to the same conclusion as the legitimate supreme court and legitimate attorney general.
Zelaya violated Article 373 of the Constitution. The relevant excerpt:
It was also unconstitutional because there was no mention of which articles that would be subject to change. Article 374 says that Article 373 is unchangeable (there are 8 unchangeable articles out of the 375), so Zelaya violated that one, too. You may not like that rule of law, and it may be poorly written and poorly conceived, but it is the rule of law. However, it seems to me that there was a purpose to their constitution. It was written in the 1980s, and the framers didn't want to open the door to having a strongman president, given the history of dictators behaving dictatorially in banana republics. Seeing how Chavez has taken freedoms from Venezuelans by exploiting his country's constitution, the Honduran Idea doesn't sound so bad. They may be poorer than Venezuela because Honduras doesn't have oil reserves, but the people are freer.
Another thing. There was nothing "non-binding" in the language of the ballot. If passed, the vote for the people to vote on a constitutional assembly would have the force of law behind it.
"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy
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parentWe can examine the behaviour
(#173319)We can examine the behaviour of the Honduran courts if we want to evaluate their legitimacy. That's my take on the matter. You assume their legitimacy as a given right from the start. Inappropriately so, in my opinion, as the kidnapping, the swearing in of a successor president based on a phony letter of resignation, and subsequent suspension of civil rights for the entire nation, is more than enough evidence to show that this body has something other than the rule of law in mind. If you support them because they oppose Chavez, you can say so. Saves me a lot of time and fuss trying to get to the bottom of this matter.
I don't want to belabour the point, but I see nothing in the article 373 you quote about holding a referendum, which is not reforming the constitution. A referendum is closer to taking a public opinion poll. In any case Honduras' neighbourhood has a tradition of authoritarian rule, even before Chavez appeared on the scene. Even the most enlightened document will not protect democracy if those charged with dispensing justice are corrupt.
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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parentYes, we can examine the behavior
(#173345)A plain reading of Article 373 is that constitutional reform must be declared by the National Congress, and the National Congress is the only entity in the Honduran government that can declare this reform. Since Congress declared no such thing (rather, the opposite), Zelaya clearly violated the rule of law in his attempt to bypass Congress and advance his own agenda. The referendum would have been legal if it had the approval of a two-thirds Congressional majority, but it didn't.
What's more, Zelaya persisted in violating the law after repeated attempts by the Congress, the attorney general and the supreme court to have him refrain, but refrain he did not. So is that the acceptable behavior of a legitimate president? To me, no. Not even close. He was attempting his own form of coup.
"I think BDog would make this place interesting." --catchy
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parentI read the article you refer to
(#173700)I read the article you refer to. It states nothing about a referendum.
You haven't pointed out any laws referring to a referendum. I pointed you to one, which you dismissed as the source was Wikipedia. Are you still referring to the IPS foolishness that BlaiseP was bandying about? I already commented on that, a big waste of time, apparently.
His own form of coup? He was already president, one without friends in the military. Nobody can say your law-loving coup plotters are deficient in that department.
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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parentThe attempt to organize the referendum....
(#173241)...was in itself illegal.
-“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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parentThe congress passed the law prohibiting
(#173245)The congress passed the law prohibiting the referendum long after the referendum was organized, just days before it was scheduled to take place.
This is an act of brinkmanship, and a curtailment of freedom of expression. It may be defensible, and maybe Zelaya was foolish to continue on that particular tack. But I'm still not convinced that the congress was not over-stepping its mandate, passing laws they had no business in passing. The fact that the courts sided with them, doesn't necessarily make the congress' acts legitimate either.
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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parentStop begging questions. Nobody got kidnapped.
(#172906)If we had a rogue president intent upon forcing a constitutional convention onto the nation, who'd abused his powers beyond any legal mandate, I should hope the Supreme Court and Congress would act in restraint of a madman of that sort.
Do you really expect Zelaya to appear in court to face charges, when he doesn't recognize the authority of that court? Give me a break, Micky: Zelaya was angling for authority and didn't care what he broke in the process of getting it.
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parentuh, i'm not so sure this is right
(#172910)i thinkn micky's point is that it's not unreasonable to reject -- or at least question -- the court's ruling that referendum was unconstitutional, since that same court has sanctioned a clearly unconstitutional approach to resolving the problem -- rousting and exiling the president at gunpoint.
what is you rproblem with "kidnapping" as a description of what happened to zelaya?
Member of the Forvm Five
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parentIt's not unreasonable to disagree
(#172921)It's completely illegal to ignore.
This place is my vacation.
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parentgood point.
(#172924)nt.
edit: it should be illegal for teh president to ignore the ruling -- yes. but subsequent events call the ruling itself into question, in my opinion.
rule of law appears to be out the window in this case, and the question of just where and when the rule of law was thrown out now also becomes relevant. i won't accapt as a given that teh ruling was legal given teh unfolding events.
Member of the Forvm Five
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parentUnfortunately
(#172927)If you are not OK with decisions supported by Honduras' courts, its Attorney General, Congress, and the Electoral Tribunal that only leaves you with Zelaya deciding, by himself, which rulings he will accept and which he won't.
This place is my vacation.
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parentanother good point.
(#172928)what checks and balances does the supreme court have on its decisions? assuming it is like our, should zelaya have abided by teh decision, regrouped to gather political support for an impeachment of teh court or a reversal of the opinion?
edit: and to follow the theme of the diary, it seems (and i don't want to get into mind reading trouble here) that BD agrees that the coup was not legal, but that the result may have been a just one.
if one can put forth that argument, can oe similarly arugue that zelaya may not have legally been able to throw out the courts ruling, but that he may have been justifided in doing so? do the subsequenet actions- and inactions -- of the courts and judical system have any bearing on that argument?
Member of the Forvm Five
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parentOne, he's not being held for ransom.
(#172912)Micky has issued the following:
1. A miserable tu-quoque at 17252, combined with an outright denial of the facts on the ground. Zelaya dismissed his military chiefs because they refused to flout the court's order.
2. At 172830 he asks how certain anyone could be about the legality of the referendum, as if the Honduran Supreme Court had not already ruled on the subject. I consider that question disingenuous. Gabriel shot that down, but Micky would tell us at 172856 that sometimes laws must be broken to ensure Justice is done. This is vicious nonsense: nations are governed by laws, not vague notions of Justice.
3. As if Gabriel's response wasn't enough, stipulating to the primacy of Justice, Micky would extend his tendentious argument even farther at 17288, making an argument for unfettered democracy for all intents and purposes, sounding for all the world like a deranged Libertarian. The Honduras constitution has terms which may not be subject to referendum. Honduras is a republic, as others have pointed out, to no effect. It is here where the Kidnapping charge is first leveled.
Micky has some odd ideas about the Rule of Law. He's entitled to them, but first he'll have to divest himself of these notions of Popular Will. Resorting to referendum, as if the Voice of the People is the Voice of God, circumventing all the apparatus of duly constituted authority under the existing constitution, that's a complete non-starter.
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parenteven the Nazis were more scrupulous
(#173014)I'm not convinced that the constituted authority is as duly as you do.
Kidnapping the president and swearing in a successor on the basis of a bogus resignation letter... even the Nazis were more scrupulous when it came to seizing power than this gang you are extolling.
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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parentUm, Right
(#173017)I never thought I'd see a Godwin-baiting comment that beat the BDS-inspired "at least Hitler was legitimately elected" in terms of sheer idiocy, but we have a new "winner" in that category. Congratulations, I suppose.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--from Ulysses, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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parentHitler wrestled
(#173024)What is legal? What is not legal? These are questions that even Hitler wrestled with.
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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parenttwo things
(#172916)kidnapping, abduction.... i don't think a ransom is necessary to use the term accoriding to wikipedia kidnapping is:
but whatever, thats semantics. i'm curious: how would you term or describe the action taken against zelaya?
secondly, i'm not defending all of micky's arguments as they are enumerated by you. i agree with you that some of his arguments here are tendentious.
but i do see the following point as bearing some merit: why should we accept as definitive a ruling of a court on the constitutionality of the original referendum, if we see that the same court has ignored or neglected the constitutionality of the resulting actions? they are directly related, are they not?
people are using the first ruling by the court as definitive when the integrity of the court itself is in question in light of subsequent events.
without even opining myself on the constitutionality of teh ruling (i have no expertise in that), i can still have serious reservations on the ruling based on subsequent events. that may well be a tu quoque argument, but still have some merit.
put it this way, if you were in court on a red light ticket and the court ruled that your whole family had to lose driving privileges for 20 years, you would probably be right to question the judgment of the court independently of whether you ran the light or not.
Member of the Forvm Five
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parentNations are governed by laws
(#172915)Right, but the sticking point here is that as Gabriel has noted the expulsion (rather than arrest) of Zelaya was illegal: "The only illegal thing the military did (and they openly recognize it) was to expel Zelaya. They claim they did so, knowing it was illegal, in order to to avoid bloodshed." Bird Dog's title also acknowledges as much. It is self-evidently problematic to apply the principles of strict legality to one side and consider "some vague notion of justice" for the other, although I am happy to agree that it is possible to evaluate the degree of illegality or justice.
That Zelaya is not being held for ransom does not, it should go without saying, mean that he was not kidnapped, as in "The crime of unlawfully seizing and carrying away a person by force." I think "expelled" is a more precise term, and arguably he was justifiably so treated, but I don't see "kidnapped" as such a wild claim.
It sounds like Zelaya was a problem but it is not at all clear to me that the current actions constitute a solution.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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parentVery Sure
(#172832)And I'm also sure the Hondurans are heartbroken that some people who live elsewhere don't approve of their constitution. I can hear the sobbing from here from their hurt feelings.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--from Ulysses, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
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parentnot true of constitutions
(#172849)All men are created equally. Same is not true of constitutions.
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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parentCricket-playing countries more free, baseball-playing less so
(#172741)I see. Interesting. Where are the statisticians - nilsey, username?
An Organization That Welcomes. . .
(#172736). . .the Castro Dynasty in with open arms is in no position to lecture anyone about how democracy is sacred. Honduras is right to tell OAS to take a hike, and aside from any political advantage to be gained, it would be the right thing to do for prominent Republicans* to put the heat on the White House to reverse its position on Honduras.
*--of course, if HRC were competent at her job, she'd already be whispering this into Obama's ear, and two-party political advantage wouldn't be an issue at all.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--from Ulysses, by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
I Think as a Wild Assed Guess...the United States is Good With
(#172726)...with the ouster of Zelaya...it can't be said openly, but the US has told Honduras that it's fine to leave the OAS...you'll be back in a few months, and we'll even throw in some extra aide.
This is the way the US will handle certain difficulties in the future.
(sneaky but smart)
Nice, complete round-up a a Diary, BTW.
Traveller