What up in Wisconsin [Update: GOP prevails, that's what up]

Bird Dog's picture

In the most expensive race in state history, Scott Walker is favored to keep his job today, but we'll see how it turns out. Democrat recounters are at the ready.

 

In the most expensive race in state history, Scott Walker is favored to keep his job today, but we'll see how it turns out. Democrat recounters are at the ready.

The political landscape is pretty ugly, what with the fascist tactics and last-minute smears and misinformation/disinformation. After a little taunting by Gov. Walker, Obama has now stepped into a fray, with a tweet. Oh my.

Update 1: Walker is up by 9 with 89% reporting. He won by 6 in 2010. The four GOP state senators won by comfortable margins. This can't be interpreted as anything but a failure on the part of the Left.

Update 2: It looks like a Democrat did win a senate seat, giving the Democrats a 17-16 majority (link). However, the next scheduled legislative session is not until 2013, well after the next regularly scheduled election. Ed Morrissey:

In November, 16 of the 33 seats will be up for grabs, and thanks to the redistricting that will be in place for the first time in that election, Republicans are supposed to pick up at least two seats. The unions spent millions of dollars and over a year’s worth of effort to get a temporary one-seat majority in a chamber that will never meet in session.

Bottom line, millions upon millions spent with nothing of substance to show for. Walker won by a little over 7%, exceeding his November 2010 margin. The executive director of the state employees union responds to the electoral result.

"We're not going to pull a blanket over our head and pee in our pajamas."

Well, that's gratifying to hear, but it's a visual I wish I didn't visualize.

A Barrett supporter adds insult to injury.

 

 

And there are a few who were less than magnanimous in defeat. I think the state needs a timeout. Go to your corner.

Update 3: Molly Ball at The Atlantic has a fair take

It's important to remember, as Democrats cope with their failure to topple Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker in Tuesday's recall, that this was a fight they chose.

Unlike the vast majority of elections, which occur on a regular schedule, the recall was a fight the left picked on purpose. They picked it because they thought they could win. And they were wrong.

It wasn't even close. In the final tally, Walker led his Democratic opponent, Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, by 53 percent to 46 percent.

The idea behind the recall effort was to send a message: a warning to conservatives across the country that there was a line not to be crossed when it came to messing with the hard-earned gains of public worker unions. By losing, however, the consortium of unions, progressives and Democrats that worked so ardently to send Walker packing may have sent the opposite message. If Walker can survive, what's to stop any other right-leaning governor from pushing the envelope?

[...]

It's not only Republican governors, Walker noted, who are pushing to reform the pension, benefit and pay privileges enjoyed by public workers. He pointed to the efforts of Deval Patrick in Massachusetts, Lincoln Chafee (a liberal independent) in Rhode Island, Andrew Cuomo in New York and Jerry Brown in California, all of whom have approached the issue of public sector pension reform, if in less inflammatory manner.

The results for the labor movement, of which the public sector is now the backbone, could be dire. Already, there are signs Walker has succeeded in crippling Wisconsin's unions, whose membership has sharply declined since his reforms made it easier for workers to opt out and harder for the groups to gain recognition. In just over a year, the union representing state workers has seen its membership drop by two-thirds, while the American Federation of Teachers has lost more than a third of the 17,000 members it formerly claimed in Wisconsin, according to the Wall Street Journal.

I think she's also right that a Walker victory does not necessarily mean a Romney victory, but it's "not meaningless as a foretaste".

Update 4: As usual, Jon Stewart's observations are pitch-perfect.

 

The Daily Show with Jon Stewart Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c
Madison Men - Scott Walker Prevails in Wisconsin Recall
www.thedailyshow.com
 
Daily Show Full Episodes Political Humor & Satire Blog The Daily Show on Facebook

 

Taranto reminds us of another Obama pledge that expired when it became too politically inconvenient to hold to it.

Theoretically, Obama was on the side of the government employee unions that were behind the unsuccessful attempt to oust Gov. Scott Walker, who last year signed legislation abolishing most of their corrupt "collective bargaining" arrangements. "Understand this," the future president declared in 2007: "If American workers are being denied their right to organize and collectively bargain when I'm in the White House, I'll put on a comfortable pair of shoes myself, I'll walk on that picket line with you as president of the United States of America. Because workers deserve to know that somebody is standing in their corner."

In practice, Obama tweeted "present": "It's Election Day in Wisconsin tomorrow, and I'm standing by Tom Barrett. He'd make an outstanding governor." But he was only theoretically present. Not only was he standing, not walking; he was standing someplace far from Wisconsin. In fact, for all we know he was sitting at the time. We can't be sure he was even wearing shoes.

What's that word again? Oh, yeah. Uncourageous.

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I thought

(#281717)

there were some members of the state legislature being recalled as well. How are they doing in their own races?

Polls don't close until 9pm EST

(#281720)

So nobody will probably know anything until around 10pm EST.

This is what happens

(#281718)

when you railroad divisive laws through a legislature, illegally discriminate against public unions you don't like while sparing the ones who vote for you, when you threaten to call in the National Guard before so much as a peep of protest is heard, when your supporters run robo-calls to mislead voters, suggest false-flag operations to discredit protesters and escalate violence, or suggest using live fire to disperse crowds in Madison, when you campaign promising to deliver 250,000 new jobs, but instead deliver job losses, and then go and tout some entirely different way of counting jobs that still brings you 230,000 jobs short of your promise, when you promise a divide-and-conquer strategy of governing, and your policies deliver on that promise by creating division among voters and among public employees.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Eh

(#281721)
Bird Dog's picture

Can't speak for the robo-calls, but much of your first sentence is factually deficient, the counting of new jobs included. And it's unlikely that there were job losses. The real complaint is that liberals and left-wingers are really mad at Walker for yanking some collective bargaining rights and they turned it into a total war.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Thanks for the lazy, nonresponsive, irrelevant comment

(#281728)

rebutting points I didn't make. There's only one sentence, for example, in my comment. Walker did indeed mention the National Guard a propos of nothing in context of unveiling his union-busting law, and the implied threat was lost on nobody but Politifact. Union-busting has a long & storied history with the National Guard. Republicans did indeed railroad Act 10 through the legislature, and Scott Walker did indeed promise to create 250,000 new jobs in his first term (what he did *not* promise was to gut collective bargaining laws in the state - at least, not to the voters).

M Aurelius was probably right.

By Railroading. . .

(#281732)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .you mean of course "worked around the cowardly Democratic legislators who fled the state like criminals." Cry me a river.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Eh

(#281744)
Bird Dog's picture

The truly irrelevant is your endorsement of your and your party's factual shortcomings and bitter clinging to failed and false storylines.

So what if Walker didn't create 250,000 jobs. His term isn't even halfway over. As for "railroading", whatever. Sour grapes. Politics ain't beanbag.

 

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Methinks Jordan was talkin' about why he was in a recall vote

(#281784)
brutusettu's picture

n/t

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

You win? :^)

(#281738)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

Qui Audet Adipiscitur ]:-)

(#281740)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Unless one happens to be a moonbat loser who floated a fake pregnancy story about Walker only to have DKos have to frantically kill it, in which case daring just leaves you defeated *and* mocked.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

You spend around $60 million just to stay in office. :) -nt-

(#281741)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

45MM vs 18MM all-in was....

(#281748)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

...the last I saw. But regardless, I don't think _he_ had to spend jack. The super-PACs were more 'n happy to help out, eh? :^)

If WIs race turns out to be close

(#281719)

then Obama and Clinton massively miscalculated in not showing up.

Clinton yes, Obama I'm not so sure

(#281723)
HankP's picture

he's as likely to inflame the Walker supporters as inspire the recall advocates.

I blame it all on the Internet

CNN calls it for Walker

(#281727)

Ah well, worth a shot.

It does not look good.

(#281735)

Still, Milwaukee County is only reporting 14%. It's incredibly slow. Apparently some polls had people standing in line at close and voting till over an hour later.

 

I'd also like to know what happened with the legislature. The GOP might have lost the majority in Wisconsin yet.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Obama Is Going To Catch A Lot Of Justified Abuse. . .

(#281736)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .if the Walker landslide carries all four Republican senators to victory, given that he was too lazy and cowardly to offer more than a Tweet to the effort.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Not seeing a landslide...

(#281743)

It will probably end up 53 - 47. That's not a landslide.

 

We'll see about the senate. One race remains uncalled, in district 21.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

After All The Drama Queening By The Unions And Democrats. . .

(#281745)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .if the margin is bigger than the one in 2010, it's a landslide--and the margin is about eight percent with only 7% of the vote yet to be counted. One sentence that keeps popping up in articles tonight: Walker is the first governor in US history to survive a recall collection. Add *that* to the list of union and Democratic failures to be tallied tonight.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

I just checked...

(#281747)

...and the 21st district covers Racine, an area I happen to be personally familiar with, and quite conservative, so no way the GOP loses there. So that's it, no Senate change.

 

I'm wondering WTF they were smoking trying to recall a senator from Racine. If you wanted to rack up a failure, that's what you would do. It makes me question how the recall effort was organized in general. "Not too brightly" is my starting assesment.

 

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

*shrug*

(#281752)
M Scott Eiland's picture

They got enough petition signatures to call the recall. If Walker had been defeated--as every other governor who faced a recall election in US history has*--and the other Republicans had lost, making that one Republican sweat before holding his seat would have been considered a bit of parsley on the feast.

*--Oh, I'm sorry--did I already say that? ]:-)

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Yeah, but...

(#281753)

...all four were from districts more conservative than the state average. So I am looking at three 60-40, and one 55-45 (District 21, oddly).

 

I am done with this for tonight. Enjoy...

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Looks Like You Might Have Been Hasty, MA

(#281779)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Democrat apparently wins District 21 recall election.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Yeah, what's up with that?

(#281820)

Wanggaard doesn't seem to have been caught with a live boy or a dead girl. I am not sure why he lost. His previous win, against the same guy, John Lehman, had a margin of 3,000 votes. He now lost by 800. That's a 4K loss in 18 months, out of 60K votes total.

 

Maybe Lehman was well-liked and there has been buyers remorse? Still, for that district, which Walker carried easily, I don't know what happened.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

I think Obama would've taken more abuse if it had been close

(#281755)

This way he can say the recall wasn't a worthy expenditure of his effort b/c it was a lost cause.

 

I'll just repeat that this was a royal butt-kicking! Even worse than forecast!

Oh My

(#281737)
M Scott Eiland's picture

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Ouch - that was a butt kicking

(#281750)

Man, it is entirely unclear how the deep pockets in this country can be beat. 

 

Walker by any reasonable measure is one of the absolute worst governors in the country. His jobs record could hardly be more miserable.

 

And not only are Republicans unperturbed about Walker's dismal record - they're *extremely* enthusiastic in their support.

 

This is what the left is up against in a swing state. Austerity and unemployment here we come. Very barfy. 

We Were on the Wrong Side of the Public Unions Issue...Obama...

(#281756)

 

...is allowed to position himself better now on the question of Government Employee Benefits and such like.

 

The inability to fund pensions, retain and fire workers...are burning issues in a middle class sliding back into the misery of the upper lower class.

 

We need to pick our fights better...more taxes, better government, more streamlined employment procedures...they are coming...or, this is the winning position if the D's will seize it.

 

 Best Wishes, Traveller

Pure bulls*&t

(#281761)
HankP's picture

the attack on public unions is he same as all Republican attacks on labor. Their strategy is to point to well paid union jobs with good benefits and emotionally manipulate people to damn the workers rather than to demand the same for themselves - because of course they're not organized and can't leverage demands for higher wages and benefits. The money is there, it just keeps going to the top 1% (or the 1% of the 1%).

 

You can see the hypocrisy - contracts are sacrosanct when a bank, for example, is demanding payment from debtors. But contracts mean nothing if they're union contracts for decent wages nd benefits. They'll even retroactively rip off the pensions of the retired - look at their Presidential candidate FFS.

 

This is the Republican dream economy - weak and poorly paid labor, increasing returns to the wealthiest, nobody left in the middle. Workers exist to serve the economy rather than the other way around.

I blame it all on the Internet

They don't care about facts, they care about tribe

(#281758)
HankP's picture

the fact that Walker was seen "sticking it to the unions" is all they care about. Republicans hate unions, they'll do anything and everything they can tio destroy them. They hate labor, they always have. They only care about things like unemployment rates becasue it makes it harder to get elected, in fact they love it when labor is weak and is poorly compensated.

I blame it all on the Internet

I Disagree...For a Population Tasting The Unhappiness...

(#281762)

...creeping poverty, making sure your neighbor is equally miserable has...deep subconscious appeal.

 

Human.

 

And, Public Unions have been living a little too well...but I like, no, I revere teachers, for me, fire fighters, police, the prison guard unions need to be brought to heel.

 

It is what broad swaths of the public wants (well, not the police etc, but that's what is necessary).

 

Traveller

That's the real corrosive envy

(#281764)
HankP's picture

that will destroy a society. That's what the Republicans don't understand, once people get used to pulling down the teachers, firemen, police, state workers, etc. they'll start setting their sights higher. It's no way to run a country.

 

Tell you what, Trav, you show me an example of a regular worker "living too well" and I'll bet that adjusted for inflation it's what the norm was in the 50s and 60s. They're lowering your expectations so that you'll love your poverty - poverty of the spirit as well.

I blame it all on the Internet

This Week Could Get Worse For Unions

(#281765)
M Scott Eiland's picture

If workers at Belmont Park sabotage the scheduled attempt by I'll Have Another to win the Triple Crown, the public reaction will not be pleasant. Of course, the race track is to blame as well for not having draconian contingency plans in place long ago.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

I am Fanatically Pro Union...But Police Retiring @20 Years...

(#281768)

 

...with 90% of end salary for life, with benefits...is unsustainable and unacceptable.

 

Teachers have much less generous deals, but, I'm working hard at 67....not digging ditches, but still working far harder than I wish.

 

It may need to go to 40 years, 20~60 years old....but something needs to be done.

 

Plus, maybe as a trade, much, much higher taxes on the affluent.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

They got you Trav

(#281772)
HankP's picture

on cops you may have a point, they're not miitary and get paid much better than military so that may need to be changed.

 

But complaining about people retiring at 65? That's the Republican hope for the future. A nation of Boxers and Clovers.

 

And if you don't see after the past thirty years that Republicans will never, ever agree to higher taxes on the wealthy, well, I don't know what to tell you.

I blame it all on the Internet

No One Complains About People Retiring at 65, least of all Me...

(#281776)

 

...it is Public Service Employees retiring after 20 years, sometimes 25 years of service, at close to full pay.

 

Ca Teachers

 

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2011/03/retired-teachers-in-ca-make-more-tha...

 

CA teachers, FTR, have the worst retirement package of all Public Employees.

 

Hummmm

 

(The point is to leave teachers alone and take on other vested interests...to include taxing the weathy)

 

Traveller

On teachers

(#281780)
HankP's picture

sure their pensions are high, CA is an expensive place to live.

 

There's a reason why pensions are high - ever since Republicans started their tax cutting mania, the state hasn't collected enough money to fund the services taxpayers expect. So the state had a choice:

 

1. Refuse to increase (or actually decrease) pay and benefits, leading to never ending teacher strikes, or

 

2. Agree to little or no pay increases but back load as much as possible all salary and benefit expenses onto pension plans. Then,

 

3. Overestimate how much pension plan investments will make so you don't have to fund them sufficiently

 

so now we're where the rubber hits the road and there isn't enough money to meet past promises. Should the teachers suffer all the losses or should the state make good on its promises?

I blame it all on the Internet

Walker wins by 7%

(#281777)

It's a trouncing. Obama did well in exit polls, but those same exit polls showed a neck and neck race.

 

The worry is that WI will encourage some more conservative $ to pour into the election. WI shows that just throwing a bunch of $ at an election will win it for Republicans.

 

Tuesday's election in WI is the worst news for Obama since MOnday's economic news. What will Wed., Thurs. and Fri. bring? 

I like how Walker won by a larger margin than

(#281778)

his Republican Lt. governor. 

 

I'd like to meet the genuises who thought Walker should be re-elected but thought his Lt. Governor had just gone too far.

Comfortable? D's are claiming SD-21.

(#281783)

It's an extremely narrow margin and there may be a...recall recount?...but if Lehman's victory holds, Dems take control of the state Senate until November. I'm sure vote fraud explains this anomaly.

 

From victory floats to saddenfreude, eh Scott? Too bad Abba never did a song about the Somme or Tora Bora.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Kinda meaningless

(#281788)

...since there are no Senate sessions scheduled until early in the New Year, that's after the regular November elections this year in which Dems get to defend their new senate majority. On the plus side, presumably Walker will not be calling any more special sessions before Nov.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

I Beat You To This By Five Hours

(#281792)
M Scott Eiland's picture

You snooze, you lose.

And it will be fun watching Wisconsin Dems sob as their temporary majority is taken from them on Election night in November--particularly if Obama manages to lose the state too (probably unnecessary for a Romney win, but quite fun).

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

You win some, you lose some

(#281796)

Voter disenfranchisment halted in FL, the ability of public unions to influence elections severely curtailed by the recall election in WI. You are dreaming if you think Romney will win WI in November. Necessary or not, fun to dream I suppose. But Romney does have to win FL and GOP efforts to purge the rolls of democrats having hit a wall doesn't advance Romneys chances.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Romney looks to have a decent chance in WI

(#281799)

Walker was down in the polls until outside money came in. Same thing could happen in Nov.

A failure on the part of the Left?

(#281789)

Sure.

 

But more importantly, what does the recall result in WI tell us about the political dynamic moving forward?

 

Will Walker & the GOP be chastened by the experience or emboldened by it?

 

It seems clear that the public mood, in the midst of a recession, has shifted against unions and public unions in particular. Organized labor's abilty to influence elections looks set to be significantly curtailed coincident with a dramatic increase in the influence of corporations and monied interests via the SC's decision in Citizens United.

 

How much damage to democracy is set to ensue?

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Huh

(#281794)
Bird Dog's picture

Why would there be any "damage to democracy"? Walker was elected. He and the legislature passed laws that liberals hated. Another election happened. Democracy worked in every instance.

As for the "emboldened" bit, why wouldn't they be? Walker's mandate was affirmed. The left threw everything into this recall effort and turned up with bupkis.

As for political dynamics, the political environment was polarized before the election, and it's still polarized. 

 

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

The playing field is not level

(#281795)

..not that it ever was.

 

Who can counter balance the newly enhanced ability of corporate & monied interests to influence elections, given that labor's abilities have been severely curtailed?

 

That's the threat to democracy I was referencing.

 

Walker's mandate was affirmed.

 Here we go again.

 

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Boo hoo

(#281801)
Bird Dog's picture

The last election cycle, Obama ran circles around McCain fundingwise, and Obama raised way more money from Wall Street than McCain. This is not a complaint, just a fact. I didn't hear left-wingers lamenting the unlevel playing that helped get him elected, nor a word about the threat to democracy with Obama in office, and I heard nary a peep from the Left on Obama's flip flop, that he would accept matching campaign funds. As Tsongas once said, money is the mother's milk of politics, and politicians need a lot of mothers. As long as the money is transparent, immediately reported and accurate, the system works.

Here we go again.

Not until November 2014. Yesterday's result ensured that.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Who can counter balance

(#281809)

the newly enhanced ability of corporate & monied interests to influence elections, given that labor's abilities have been severely curtailed?

 

That's the threat to democracy I was referencing.

 

Also, where do you get a mandate for Walker from? Probably the same place W got his?

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

How did labor's abilities get curtailed?

(#281816)
Bird Dog's picture

They're allowed the same expenditures under Citizens United as corporations.

If Clinton could claim a mandate without even getting more than 50%, Walker can claim it too. After all, he got majorities twice in the last 20 months.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

All citizens are equally free

(#281818)

to live under a bridge, etc.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Thank you for the...

(#281825)
Bird Dog's picture

...lazy, unresponsive, irrelevant comment.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

You know full well teachers unions don't have Koch brother-type

(#281827)

money to throw around, so your remark that unions are free to spend as much as the historic Walker campaign was specious.

M Aurelius was probably right.

And McCain Didn't Have Obama Type Money. . .

(#281828)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .to throw around in 2008. What's your point?

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Did Obama outspend McCain 7 to 1

(#281829)

or are you texting from Bad Analogy World again?

M Aurelius was probably right.

Sniper Grandma Math

(#281833)
M Scott Eiland's picture

As Bernard pointed out last night, the ratio for Walker-side spending vs. Union and their lackey spending was more like 2 1/2 to 1.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Nope

(#281835)
HankP's picture

 

[link]

 

so that's about 7.8 to 1 against Barrett.

 

If you include independent expenditures by outside groups: $22 million to Walker and his scumbags and $7.5 million to Barrett. Added to the campaigns that's a ratio of about 4.5 for Walker over Barrett.

 

I blame it all on the Internet

Still Sniper Grandma Math

(#281840)
M Scott Eiland's picture

It's a recall election, making all funds expended by outside groups since the propagandizing in favor of the recall early last year relevant, not just the ones spent for Barrett in the last month. That's not even including the impact of the anti-Walker cheerleading by non-Fox news entities.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

I don't understand your private vocabulary

(#281841)
HankP's picture

so I have no idea what you're trying to say. The fact remains, unless you have better numbers the advantage was wildly in Walker's favor, far outside the ratios of past elections.

I blame it all on the Internet

Oh now we're including news coverage

(#281842)

as a form of election spending? Someone better tell the FEC. 

 

And funding spent gathering recall signatures actually counts towards Barrett's election fund a year before he became a candidate? I think you've earned this:

 

Creative

Accounting

Award!

June 2012

M Aurelius was probably right.

Exactly

(#281832)
Bird Dog's picture

The left-wingers here sound like partisan hypocrites given their lack of concern that Obama outspent McCain by the widest margin ever and yet are alarmed that democracy will go down the tubes because Walker outspent Barrett in a state election. Pffft.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Others sound like partisan hypocrites

(#281837)
brutusettu's picture

so you'll post estimated numbers that were selectively presented by a professional partisan? Surely you jest.

I don't know from that link how much Rove estimated Obama spent, he gave the higher number of what Rove estimates Obama raised.
I don't know from that link how much Rove estimated McCain raised, he gave the lower number of what Rove estimates McCain spent.

Did Rove use real dollars to find the "widest margin ever" or did Rove used "non-real" nominal dollars?
What does Rove mean by "widest margin ever"?
Was Rove referring to total gap in spending as a total, and not the percentage margin being the widest?
That latter method seems kind of useless, If more civilians have died per day during Obama's presidency than any other president, I wouldn't automatically buy the claim by a professional partisan that the US is cursed to die under Obama.

[url=http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/totals.php?cycle=2008]McCain spent more than Bush and Gore raised in 2000[/url], if you somehow add how much was spent and how much was raised in 1992, McCain still spent more... So lacking better sources, is it fair to just assume Rove talking about "widest margin evar" probably doesn't mean merde considering all things?

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

If the facts line up, what does it matter?

(#281838)
Bird Dog's picture

Actually, Rove understated the spending margin between Obama and McCain. Obama spent $740.6 million and McCain spent $227.7 million, a margin of over half a billion. From September 1 through November 24, Obama outspent McCain by a margin of 4-to-1. Woe to democracy, a phrase not uttered by liberals and left-wingers when they had the spending advantage. Hypocrites all for not bemoaning the threat to democracy by Obama's fundraising prowess yet fretting about the margin that Walker had.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

You managed to find numbers even wronger than Karl Rove's.

(#281839)

I...would not have imagined that could be possible. Then again I wouldn't have imagined you would link to a guy whose day job is lying to the media to settle a factual argument. While I agree that shooting the messenger is a silly, fallacious way to evaluate facts...*you* don't agree as a general rule.

 

Meanwhile, the FEC reports that McCain spent $358 million compared to Obama's $760.3 million, just under a 1:2 ratio in favor of Obama. Doubling a candidate's spending is certainly significant...but it's nowhere near the order-of-magnitude spending difference in Wisconsin as you & Scott have been suggesting.

 

 

M Aurelius was probably right.

Take it up with Bloomberg

(#281852)
Bird Dog's picture

So actually, Rove's numbers were right were understated by $150 million and Bloomberg overstated the disparity by $100 million. The bottom line is that Obama spent $300 $400 million more than McCain. You must agree that nearly one-third of a billion dollars is a fair amount of money in a single political campaign, no? Because of this, in order to avoid sounding like a hypocrite, this massive Obama-caused disparity is a threat to democracy, no? But you didn't make that argument then or ever, and now you're fretting about Walker's threat to democracy. Hypocrite.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Am I leaning on the PRV button or something?

(#281854)

I think a 7 to 1 disparity is a lot more significant than a 2 to 1 disparity because, well, that's how math works. Obama didn't enjoy a peculiar state law designed to make it near impossible to recall a governor, for one thing.

 

Secondly, there's a huge difference between fundraising vast amounts of small contributions from individual donors excited about your campaign, like Obama did, and pulling in unlimited buckoo bucks from billionaires like Scott Walker, who raised a good half of his kitty from a hundred or so massive out of state donors.

 

Yes I am concerned about the influence of money on elections. But money given by individual donors troubles me quite a bit less than the money handed out by ideological warriors with unlimited cash and business interests to deregulate. I think there's a huge difference between those types of funding; you don't see the difference. That seems strange to me.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Water no hold

(#281878)
Bird Dog's picture

If you were honestly concerned about the influence of money in elections, you would have been honestly concerned about a $400 million disparity in spending in a presidential. The disparity was greater than what McCain spent en toto. Your comments tell me that you have one standard for your party and a different standard for the party you oppose. The hypocrisy is plain.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Walker also spent more than Barrett spent in toto,

(#281887)

then went on to spend six times as much again. In mathematics, that's what is known as a significant difference. The difference between doubling a number and raising it by an order of magnitude is considered a very large difference, mathematically speaking. I'm not sure what basis for comparison you're using, but your analogy is wrong...by an order of magnitude. Hypocrisy would require me to react differently to two situations that are identical or similar.

 

These two situations are neither identical, nor similar.

 

Instead this is a lame and transparent attempt to rebut a legitimate point with a false "Dems do it too!" analogy.

 

I also don't mind reiterating that around half of Obama's fundraising came from individual voters in amounts of less than $200, whereas more than half of Walker's fundraising came from a few hundred extremely wealthy individuals, and more than two thirds of his fundraising came from out-of-state non voters. See the difference? Money from lots of individual voters, vs. money from a handful of non-voters with unlimited resources? One of those is a far greater threat to the integrity of the "one person, one vote" principle that lies at the heart of a functioning democracy.

 

You're making a false analogy. You can insist on repeating it; I'm happy to keep calling you on it.

M Aurelius was probably right.

FWIW

(#281891)
brutusettu's picture

Using Wisconsin's % of the 2010 US GDP as a multiplier for how much the candidates raised

Walker raised the equivalent of $1,726 million
---Barret raised the equivalent of $225 million

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP]1[/url]
[url=http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/us_gdp_history]2[/url]
[url=http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/06/wisconsin-walker-recall-money-stats]3[/url]

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

Yep

(#282015)
Bird Dog's picture

Hypocrisy still plain as day. $400 million doesn't matter as long as the liberal has the $400 million advantage.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

"$400 million....doesn't matter"

(#282043)
brutusettu's picture

vs "isn't exactly great, but no where near a relative advantage of $1,500"

It's like someone hyping up a dude's [i]lack of severe concerns[/i] that Charles Barkley was too short to draft high as a post player, and then acting like the same dude has no right to say [i]someone of Danny DeVito's stature is just too short to play the 4 spot in the NBA[/i].

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

Warning!

(#281855)

It goes w/out saying that you shouldn't be calling people hypocrites on the site.

I'm so pleased

(#281862)
HankP's picture

that other people who disagree with you are being exposed to the quality arguments that I usually contend with.

I blame it all on the Internet

Actually,

(#281881)
Bird Dog's picture

you should saddened that the Jordan's arguments was lowered to your usual levels.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Ha

(#281899)
HankP's picture

I'lll leave others to judge Jordan's arguments vs. yours. I'm pretty sure I know who's more persuasive and has a better command of the facts - and basic math.

I blame it all on the Internet

Indeed

(#282016)
Bird Dog's picture

I'm sure you do believe what lefties tell you and disbelieve what righties tell you, facts be damned. I know that, in you and Jordan's leftwing world, a $400 million difference in spending is nominal and no threat to democracy when it comes to electing a liberal to the most powerful job on the planet, yet a large disparity in spending for an office in a smallish state with a fraction of the president's power somehow threatens the fabric of our representative republic. The illogic and the hypocrisy speaks for itself.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

It isn't just the money, it's the source. -nt-

(#282017)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

That & the fact that few Congressional races are competitive

(#282025)

..so a small number of large donors can have a great deal of influence, as we saw with the farce that was the GOP presidential primary.

As for Birds $400M. Knowledgeable investors declined to back a loser, but Obama wouldn't stay bought and he hurt a lot of fee fees on Wall St.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Difference in magnitude, not

(#281885)

Difference in magnitude, not in kind.  It isn't a difficult distinction to make though you are doing your darndest.

That Summary lumps in primary spending it seems

(#281857)
brutusettu's picture

Romney spent $100+ million last cycle and HRC spent $250+.

 

 

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

Who the hell is Lee L Mercer Jr.?

(#281864)
HankP's picture

and how did he take in (and spend!) over $900 million without anyone ever hearing about him?

I blame it all on the Internet

Lee L Mercer Jr. seems to be a schizophrenic person.

(#281874)

Wonkette has a writeup on him. From his campaign website:

My platform for President of the United States Of America is Criminal Law. It is developed from my Method of Education. I was ordered to create and or invent by the United States Army that is now intact regulating the United States Government protecting it through Military Intelligence Computerization Management a new Disipline I invented and the Administration of Criminal Law Laws across the board.

 

*I won scholar of the world in World Management at Rice University from the President Of Rice University development in engineering with him and the German Government. I won road scholar from the United States Navy/United States Marine Corp. at West Point. All of my records of authencation will be brought forward into court by former board and staff that I have named above according to law for my day in court.

Which is fine...he sounds harmless, and I hope he's getting adequate care for his condition & is more or less safe & comfortable & able to live his life as he wants to.

 

What's disturbing is that the FEC includes his campaign fundraising reports (in addition to being scholar of the world in World Management, he's also the treasurer of his own campaign committee) as if they, you know, are based in some kind of financial reality the rest of us would recognize. Here for example is an FEC report from 4Q09 signed by Mercer and claiming receipts of $72 billion. That would be a lot of cash on hand, except that his committee spent it all in the same quarter...without anyone else hearing about it.

 

I'm beginning to suspect the FEC reports might not be verified.

M Aurelius was probably right.

That's pretty cool.

(#281876)

/nt

Gee, ya think?

(#281900)
HankP's picture

that's a pretty big problem. If they're not auditing ridiculously large numbers, who's to say they're auditing ridiculously low numbers?

I blame it all on the Internet

So we agree, then

(#281844)

Obama did not outspend McCain by anything close to the "widest margin evah" in 2008 & not even in the same universe as the spending advantage enjoyed by Walker during the recall.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

'Fraid not

(#281853)
Bird Dog's picture

Whether it's $300 $400 million or $500 million, the disparity is the largest of any presidential campaign. Those are just the facts.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Nominal dollar differences are the worst metric to use

(#281865)
HankP's picture

ratios are much more telling. In 2010, conservative outside groups outspent liberal groups 2 - 1, so ... um, what was your point again?

I blame it all on the Internet

The point is simple

(#281883)
Bird Dog's picture

When your party that has the advantage in spending, it doesn't matter that the disparity is greater than what the lesser-spending individual spends in total. A $400 million difference in spending is irrelevant when your guy is on the good side of the $400 million.Don't be in denial, Hank. Embrace the hypocrisy!

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

No, that's really wrong

(#281897)
HankP's picture

$400 million to $1 is very different than $1.6 billion to $1.2 billion. In one case the opoonent is completely invisible, in the other he's just seen 3/4 as much as his opponent. That's why people use ratios. I'm not sure why you're having trouble understanding that.

I blame it all on the Internet

No

(#282018)
Bird Dog's picture

What you're doing is hiding behind ratios to minimize the relevance of $400 million. 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Ooooh! Big numbers! Scary!

(#282027)
HankP's picture

.I can't wait for your analysis of the DOD.

I blame it all on the Internet

Clinton's mandate

(#281819)

...left us an economy in reasonably good shape, with a budget surplus no less.

 

Your man W? not so much.

 

Walker may have secured a mandate to fix the states budget problems and the public unions were willing to meet him part way. But it was never about solving budget problems for Walker. $30 million, two thirds of which courtesy of Citizens United, came from wealthy out of state donors was able to sufficiently blur the difference and secure Walkers tenure.

 

Also, what Jordan said.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

So we agree, then

(#281826)
Bird Dog's picture

Walker does have a mandate.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

To fix the budget

(#281836)

Not to eliminate unions

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Citizens United strikes

(#281798)

Citizens United strikes again.  Great job on that one, Supremes.  Who could (not) have possibly forseen the consequences of that decision?

I'm pretty sure

(#281879)

they forsaw them.  It makes a lot more sense if you see them as Republican judges finding rationalizations to cast votes that benefit the Republican Party.  It's the theory that best fits the data, anyway.

And not just on this case nt

(#281901)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

My bad

(#281802)
Bird Dog's picture

No, I really did not intend to vote in favor of promoting my own diary. I blame the hair-trigger touchpad.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Exit polling tells a different story. 60% reject recall

(#281805)

elections except in case of "official misconduct," a number that goes some way towards explaining why Walker won 17% of Obama voters. Only 27% of Wisconsinites surveyed say recalls can be acceptable "for any reason," while 10% said recall elections are "never acceptable." 

 

Given these numbers, it would seem at least possible that Wisconsinites viewed this election in part as a referendum on the idea of holding recall elections for "political" reasons, and so the very legitimacy of this procedure may have been foremost in some voters' minds. It seems likely that some people weren't voting for Walker or against Barrett so much as rejecting the idea of a recall that has, for better or for worse, come to be seen as politically motivated.

 

A miscalculation, then, for the unions not to argue for the legitimacy of the recall itself, and/or the illegitimacy of Act 10 and the unsavory methods used to pass it.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Fundraising wrinkle: Walker & Barrett played by different rules.

(#281806)

Literally.

A somewhat obscure state law passed in 1987 says that when a governor is facing a recall challenge, the normal donation limits are suspended for "the payment of legal fees and other expenses."

 

"Tom Barrett does have to abide by this $10,000 limit on individual contributions [and] he has gotten, as of today, 26 contributions of $10,000," Lueders says. But Walker had more than four times the number of $10,000 contributions as Barrett, he says, and because Walker didn't have to abide by that limit at all, he raised 111 contributions of more than $10,000 each — largely from outside of Wisconsin.

Barrett had to abide by fundraising limits. Walker did not. It isn't just Citizens United: Wisconsin has some whackjob laws of its own, in this case a law evidently designed to make it much harder to recall a governor.

M Aurelius was probably right.

The spending discrepancy is an issue

(#281858)

But I think the deeper issue is that so many voters are susceptible to the message that middle class public sector folks don't deserve the right to collectively bargain with their employers, and don't deserve a decent income or decent retirement benefits.

 

Southern CA recently just voted, with overwhelming majorities, to screw public workers just as hard as they got screwed in WI.

 

The question isn't just outside money flowing into elections, it's how you get people to stop hating on their neighbors.  

Not just neighbors. Anti-union hatred is as purely irrational

(#281859)

as racism, from what I can tell. The idea that you, as an employee of a business concern, might meet with other employees of that concern, compare salaries & benefits & working conditions, and agree to cooperate to try and improve same... that idea gives average Americans the absolute heebie jeebies. It's like your daughter's dating a communist.

M Aurelius was probably right.

They didn't just screw the unions, they screwed themselves

(#281861)
HankP's picture

because now they have to fund two different pension systems for at least a few decades. The old pension system will  have reduced contributions from current employees flowing into it, and the new pension system will have its own startup costs. Also, the new plan is certain to be subject to a lawsuit since it reneges on previous contractual agreements.

 

Remember, Repubicans believe in the inviolability of contracts unless breaking one will screw over poor and middle class people.

I blame it all on the Internet

Catchy, While it's an issue of hate for some...

(#281863)

...it's an issue of self-interest for others.  If I think public sector employees are overcompensated for their services (whether I think they are paid too much or I am dissatisfied with their service) I only have the option of voting in a politician that either cuts their benefits or increases/improves the services provided.  As a taxpayer, I don't have the option of walking away from the deal. You use the terms 'deserve' and 'decent' but opinions vary on what those are.  I don't have to hate on anyone just because I disagree with you on how those two terms are defined.

' public sector folks don't deserve the right to collectively bargain ' That might be a fair argument if the actual case wasn't that unions don't want public sector employees to have the right to opt out of joining.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Not pensions

(#281866)
HankP's picture

you're unhappy, elect someone who will either reform the bureaucracy (hard work, and very few politicians will even attempt it) or cut staff and services. But messing with someone's pension, especially people in their 50s and 60s, is breaking a decades long contract and it's morally wrong. You're just trying to get out of promises made by past politicians - promises made to avoid paying personnel better salaries and benefits.

 

Maybe someone should look into modifying military pensions and benefits, I'm sure there's plenty of fat to be trimmed there. Why should an able bodied person be able to retire on a full pension after only 20 years?

I blame it all on the Internet

Who is 'you'?

(#281896)

I do agree that tagging a pension after a certain point is wrong.  I'm not specifically arguing pension cuts, or any particular cut.  Since the majority of the comments here have been lacking any sort of fact or detail, I'm asking about process.  My question was how do the bill payers get represented.   Seems a hell of a  better discussion than the 'Republicans blah, blah, blah' or 'Democrats blah, blah, blah' that's taken up most of this diary.


Folks are looking at reducing military pensions.  No union involvement of course, since there isn't one, but folks are looking.  The folks looking still haven't figured out a way to keep folks past their initial obligation.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

I thought you said earlier

(#281902)
HankP's picture

that even though you're at 20+ years, you can't retire unless they give you permission? Isn't that keeping you past your initial obligation?

I blame it all on the Internet

No, my initial obligation was for 3 years

(#281905)

And I do have to ask permission to either retire or leave, I can't just quit.  The Army can deny my request to retire or having approved it recall me from retirement until I'm dead or hit 62 and even 62 is waiverable, hell I wouldn't be shocked if death was waiverable.  Some of the retired military guys here might dispute that age limit, when they retired it was 55 but was raised in '06. 


 

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Three years initially

(#281907)
HankP's picture

after that is it completely open-ended? I thought you had to re-sign after each time period is up?

I blame it all on the Internet

Open-ended? Kinda sorta.

(#281912)

Officers only contract for their initial term.  Once that is complete they sign on for what's called voluntary indefinite status.  There are a ton of circumstances where an officer incurs an obligation for a period of time but on the whole the service is generally open ended.


Enlisted used to contract for pre-determined durations, usually between 3-6 years for their entire enlistment.  They still contract until they hit their 10 year mark.  Once they hit their 10 year mark they serve out the remainder of their current contract and then go onto volutary indefinite status.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Which Many Do, If Given The Chance

(#281867)
M Scott Eiland's picture

As Wisconsin has proved. I'd be fascinated to see the oh so intellectually honest argument from lefties as to why those workers shouldn't be allowed to do so, as opposed to the temper tantrum from them that results every time the phrase "right to work" is uttered.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Let them opt out of the union salary and benefits nt

(#281870)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

Self-interest?

(#281882)

Hardly.

 

Union jobs have higher wages than non-union. If a part of the labor market has higher wages, it puts a floor on the rest of the labor market. By screwing the unions, lower middle class people simply remove that floor for themselves.

 

The correct response to your piss-poor Walmart wage is not to make cops, teachers, and firefighters also have a piss-poor wage. It might feel that way, since you can't make ends meet and you pay state taxes such as the sales tax to fund wages of people who make more than you.

 

But in reality, you and your crappy wage are the problem. Of course, nobody likes to think they are the problem, so they will gladly align themselves with a narrative that blames others. It's especially easy when this narrative is spewed out daily by a news network that caters to low wage earners, and millions are spent on issue ads reinforcing the concept. "Hey, it's not your fault! It's not the fault of the company you work for! It's those darned unionized state workers!"

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

You're assuming way too much.

(#281903)

I'm not interested in screwing public unions.  I'm interested in making sure I get the best service for my tax dollars.  I'd prefer a cooperative arrangement, but so long as public employee unions have no accountability for what they provide, protect their duds, criminals etc and seem perfectly happy with that arrangement then the bill payers are only left with the option of voting in an axe man.  Put another way, if the public union approach to customer satisfaction is 'F**k 'em' why should the customer approach to union benefits be any different?

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

I think you're rehashing several decades' worth of union-bashing

(#281904)

propaganda...not that those stories & complaints aren't valid in some or even many cases, but for hundreds of thousands of public employee union members nationwide these cases are the rare exception. This is how propaganda works...take exceptions to the rule and hammer them mercilessly in the media for decades until the average person believes the exception is the rule.

 

It's like dissing airline pilots because they've been known to deliberately crash airplanes. 

 

I was in a public employee union for years (college teacher's & adjuncts union at CUNY, 20,000 members)...the vast majority of the union's time was spent negotiating pay, benefits & hours, classroom sizes & curriculum standards with the university trustees. No time that I know of was spent protecting the jobs of lecherous cads who couldn't be bothered to do their jobs. The approach to the student experience was anything but 'F**k 'em,' and in fact we were clamoring for smaller class sizes, smaller reliance on adjunct faculty (I was an adjunct; 60% of the teaching faculty were adjuncts, underpaid & underqualified yet students pay full tuition to take our classes), fighting the end of open admissions, and in general trying to uphold the standards and mission of the country's third largest and far and away most bad-ass university.

 

The stigma against unions and union employees is largely bogus, and it is pretty much just that. A stigma. No other group in the country is reviled for organizing & trying to advance its interests quite so openly & automatically just about wherever you turn. 

 

In fact I'm going to be extra fair and confess I feel the same weird stigma towards unions myself. When I hear about a strike somewhere, I automatically think about all these stories of crooked mobbed-up union reps, unfirable incompetents, overpaid idjits teaching schoolkids to be stupid & greedy, SEIU thugs, Teamster jokes.* It's like a programmed response. This stuff comes unbidden to mind even though I know better from direct experience. It's an icky-poo cooties attitude with little basis in fact, but which has been hammered into all of us since Reagan was Governor.

 

 

*What did the Teamster say to his kids? "Get outta here and go watch the other kids play."

M Aurelius was probably right.

Seconded

(#281908)
HankP's picture

when I was in a union (local 1199) most of their efforts were helping members through paperwork, answering questions about benefits, etc. - more like an HR department than a private army.

 

One thing they were very good at was making management show cause for firing someone, rather than let an employee get fired because their boss didn't like them. But people got fired for screwing up.

I blame it all on the Internet

Man, I wish I was rehashing old issues

(#281929)

Unfortunately for me they are more recent memories.  That's cool, we're bringing different perspectives and experiences to the discussion, you're just wrong :) 

'No time that I know of was spent protecting the jobs of lecherous cads who couldn't be bothered to do their jobs.' Leaving out lecherous, brutha, I got stories.  Should you find yourself in the eastern half of North Carolina you bring the beer and I'll bring my bardic voice and share them with you.   If the stories get to be too much, then bring more beer.

I'll cop to the 'f**k 'em' comment not adding substance and detractng from my point.  My question still stands.  If I am unsatisfied with the performance of public employees, or if somewhat satisfied, still hold the opinion that they are overcompensated, what can I as a tax payer do to remedy my dissatisfaction? 

Lastly, I do not hate unions. Everyone say it aloud 'Darth does not hate unions.'  But any group of people has the potential to under perform but when they do so on the public dime there doesn't appear to be many good remedies.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

What does your question have to do with unions?

(#281935)

If you're unsatisified with a public employee or you think they're overcompensated, your options are limited (but meaningful) whether that person belongs to a union or not. You can write letters, document problems, complain to supervisors, complain to elected officials, vote differently, etc. Whether the employee belongs to a union or not, you as a citizen are going to have to try and persuade that person's superiors that they should reevaluate their own hiring & salary decisions. You can do something, but of course it'll be slow & incremental like anything you try to change as just some voter.

 

It sounds to me like your problem is with public employment in general. Maybe you have some more specific examples.

 

Hell there are private companies that aren't much different. Ever complain to your cable or power company, try to get them to change something? That's a lot of beer cans under the porch.

M Aurelius was probably right.