You say "go Bayh", and I say hello (Update: Say hello to Biden)
Yeah, I know, weak title. But I thought this post could make for a VP discussion thread. The Dems could do worse than Bayh. He's just as good a looking as Edwards, but without the baggage, and Bayh has a longer and more substantive political record than both Edwards or Obama. I don't know if Biden's in the mix or not, he would add some gray hair to the ticket, and some of that hair might even be real.
[Update I:] Biden's the guy. The Democats are ceding several avenues of attack on McCain. First, Biden's own son is a lobbyist and Biden has taken millions in contributions from his lobbyist ties. Second, Biden has shown himself to be a one-man gaffee machine. Third, we won't hearing from Democrats about McCain plagiarizing, not after Biden blatantly plagiarized in 1988 1987 and on prior occasions. I welcome all of those concessions from the Donkey Party because maybe the debate will be steered toward issues and underlying principles, but I am an optimist by nature.
[Update II:] The Economist is agreeable with Obama's choice, but they also outline some disadvantages:
As for disadvantages, there are plainly a couple. Mr Biden is the consummate Washington insider at a time when people say they are heartily sick of inside-the-Beltway politicians. Like Mr Obama, he has no executive experience whatsoever: the dangers of having two senators on the same ticket are obvious when one considers that no sitting senator has been elected since 1960 (though then the Kennedy-Johnson ticket, like this one, was a young senator-old senator match-up). A governor would have been preferable on these grounds at least.The other problem is that Mr Biden is a bit of a wind-bag—known even in Washington, which is well-used to them, as one of its most notorious bloviators. His loose tongue can get him into trouble: Britons know him as a man who plagiarised a speech by a Labour politician, Neil Kinnock; Americans as a man prone to the occasional racially-insensitive remark.
I'm still smiling about The Economist describing Georgia as a "theatrical nation", evoking images of Georgians practicing their lines en masse for Cats and Fiddler on the Roof.
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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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I found out today that Biden has been one of the primary authors and advocates in Congress of asset forfeiture laws. Since I consider those laws to be blatantly unconstitutional in application and literally fascist in conception, I will not be voting for any ticket that includes Joe Biden.
I was looking forward to voting for the nation's first African-American President. He'll win anyway, most likely, but he'll do it without any more help from me.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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)a solid GOP Supreme Court for the rest of our lifetimes, continuing to do nothing about energy problems while enriching Islamists and propping up regimes that produce them, deficit-financed wars and tax cuts as far as the eye can see, and of course authoritarian executive powers that make Biden look like Thomas Paine.
So good luck with that.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )What are Obama and the D congress going to do about punishing the current authoritarians and preventing future administrations from re-enacting the past 8 years?
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| parent )and on this front the contrast is crystal clear between the parties.
Past D fed. + SCOTUS appts. (as well as compromise appts. they forced Rs to make) have been the only serious check on exec. power.
E.g. the Electronic Frontier Foundation's suit against the telecoms for wiretapping is still kicking around the 9th circuit. And the EFF is now suing the gov. directly over wiretapping.
I'd hope you could recognize that legal challenges of this sort are more likely to succeed with D appts....
You know, Biden headed the judiciary committee in 87 and did as much as anyone to ensure that Kennedy and not Bork was confirmed. Kennedy recently wrote the majority opinion in Boumenediene securing detainee rights to habeas corpus and overturning parts of the Military Commissions Act.
None of these recent checks on exec. power would have happened but for previous D battles. They will not survive another R admin.
Meanwhile Obama has said that Thurgood Marshall would be his paradigm for appting justices. McCain? Alito + Scalia.
This is not a choice between Coke vs. Pepsi here people.
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| parent )voting for change and not getting it, over voting for the same and getting what I paid for. This is not the election for silly protest votes. If Obama figures he needs the Democratic crooks to help him beat the (far worse) GOP crooks, well, he's probably on to something.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )given that you're something of a purist, what do you think of Biden’s role in passing the bankruptcy bill and his stand against other efforts to curb what is sometimes termed ‘predatory lending’? I was researching a possible diary about it several weeks ago because I thought it was kind of interesting and wanted to hear other points of view.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )The relationship between creditors and debtors is a fundamentally consensual one. Of course the industry needs to be regulated, as all industry needs to be regulated (capitalism is a government project!), but it isn't the kind of issue I would describe as historically important.
Democratic scapegoating of lenders strikes me as the sort of crude populism that leads them to blame oil companies for high prices at the pump, the Mexicans for taking your jobs, etc. I know the American people are drowning in debt, but they did sign the papers, didn't they?
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )what I thought about it too, but it was a sticking point for some of the Biden critics.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )I had the decency to believe that there was little to no difference between the candidates.
You haven't said that but have drawn some sort of line in the sand anyway; that's pretty much the df. of making the best the enemy of the good.
.. really it's a hell of an election to sit out to make a pt. contra authoritarianism. Just how long were you planning on sitting on the sidelines while the judiciary is packed w. sycophants, the Rs expand their media propaganda empire, + the exec. asserts carte blanche art. II powers?
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| parent )Still strategic voting and all that living in a battle ground I had to vote for Gore..... I did see Rage play the DNC.... :) Reformed leftist... More of a Moderate Radical now.... Guess that is why I like old Ben Franklin's portrait in the John Adams mini series....
--Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your
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| parent )Yes, McCain supports a mobster executive branch and a national security apparatus that can peek into any part of your life without even a warrant, imprison you without charge, and send you off to eastern europe to be tortured half to death.
But the only viable alternative is a team whose #2 is responsible for laws that today compel police to bust into your home and imprison you for decades or gun down your family in the name of drug prohibition.
Why aren't we spending our money on interest groups for voting reform that would put an end to this destructive two-party system?
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| parent )how'd that work out?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )all our ideals. Ask Birddog or Mac if McCain is all they wish.. Even those of us who like Obama would not be hard pressed to talk about many issues we wish he was more in support of... Politics is the art of the possible...The drug war is a failure that will not be fixed unless we look at it as the failure it is... It should have never been fought as a criminal matter... We would have far less use if we taxed it and stigmatized it's use..... In some respects those laws were a bad answer to the crack problem..... I don't see how you can look at the election on a few issues alone... You get the closest to move your views forward... The framers designed the system for stability not rapid change.. At times I think it was a mistake and in fact think that we should move the budget process to two year shifting cycles.... I vote on policy direction as a whole and at times for the through the bums out... With Ginsberg and Stevens at the age they are I could vote alone on the issue of preserving some since of balence on the court... Always Nader or Barr.... Not what I would do but to each his own...
--Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your
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| parent )not number two on the ticket.
2004 was the first election in which I made political donations (Dean, then Kerry, then the Party). It was also the last. They wasted it on television ads and mail and consultants. Issuewise, my money is better spent supporting activists groups whose policy preferences match my own. And even then it's rare that we agree across the board.
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| parent )Unless you live in California or New York. It's self-defeating in the extreme to sit out an election based on the Veep's advocacy of a single bill/law. It's even more self-defeating to in any way make it easier for the Senior Senator from Arizona to start three or four new wars.
In other words the stakes are too high to turn this election into an opportunity to strike a political pose -- like me voting for John Anderson in '80.
Unless you live in California or New York. And maybe Iowa. Okay, Washington. And Illinois. But that's it!
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )I'd say it's self-defeating to continue to vote for a party that demonstrates, over and over again, a fundamental contempt for the issues that are most important to me.
I'm not at all sure that McCain would be such a terrible President. All candidates are unknown quantities; and for bellicose rhetoric, McCain and Obama might as well have been separated at birth.
I know, I know. Obama doesn't really mean it. Right?
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )Obama doesn't really mean it
He nominated for VP someone who's unequivocally spoke out against attacking Iran + accused bellicose rhetoric of raising oil prices by $30 a barrel and being counterproductive w/in Iran (among other things).
Sorry, but if Biden's stances on drug enforcement count against Obama, you're going to have to score Biden's stances on Iran positively.
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| parent )He voted for AUMF, you know. Now we're being told his vote was "reluctant". Why should I give a damn whether he did it reluctantly or not? Do we acquit criminals because they agonized over robbing that liquor store? Seems to me his reluctance is between him and his deity of choice; his votes require some accountability.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )He championed Iraq initially w. about as much enthusiasm as he later criticized the surge.
[And memo to Scott: OMG! Joe Biden voted *against* one of the most crucial wars ever pursued in America's fundamental interests: the Persian Gulf war!]
But you're evading the pt. -- Biden has been railing against Iran hawkishness, and we know no one in McCain's admin. will be anything other than an Iran hawk. Certainly not his VP.
i.e. you've got prima facie evidence that one admin is going to be more hawkish on Iran and you're saying you're not going to do anything about it.
That's making the best the enemy of the good, unless there's some commensurate good you haven't mentioned that you intend to effect by staying home.
I mean at least support a 3rd party of some sort and give a future 3rd party candidate a shot at getting 15% approval and getting on TV.
Really I wonder whether you're having a visceral reaction to Biden's disgusting views on law enforcement but haven't weighed it against the range of other disgusting views out there.
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| parent )McCain's Cold War fantasies are fundamentally dangerous. If you don't see that...?
Okay. But "I'm not at all sure that McCain would be such a terrible President" requires ignoring almost every one of his policy positions. And, btw, having little or no idea about the ages of a couple Supreme Court justices.
The latter might, I'm guessing, impact some of those issues that are important to you.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )I'm not pretending there is zero cost. The Democrats represent my interests (marginally) better than the Republicans do, and this isn't a decision I make lightly or happily.
I just can't support the Democratic Party any more. I think the country would be better served by its destruction than by its continued pathetic existence.
Maybe if it changed its name to the Anodyne Alternative Republican Party, I'd stick around for one more cycle. I always appreciate honesty -- and deliberate satire.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )If you compare party platforms, or the pollicy positions of McCain and Obama, there is simply no comparison. These are not marginal differences. It's not even close. And enabling in any way a John McCain presidency is to enable a diminishing of our civil liberties by a newly stacked Supreme Court that will last for a generation at the least, maybe more.
I don't see how you can put your own personal disappointment above those facts.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )There is an argument to be made that there's an authoritarian train barreling down the tracks, and neither Party is putting the effort needed to slow -- or stop -- it. And policy which affects the next four years or so is actually irrelevant compared to the need to create an institution which could conceivably stop our society's slide into thuggish oligarchic madness.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )And he sent you this message snk:
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| parent )I bet his rendition of One More Chance in 2012 will be even better.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )is that this election is unfortunately becoming about "Anybody But McCain" rather than enthusiasm for the democratic nominee.
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| parent )If you think Obama would support such laws as president, then I think you'd have a reason to sit this one out. But c'mon. Biden was chosen purely for campaign reasons, not to shape policy as VP.
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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| parent ).
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )Obama's major legislative achievement -- requiring the videotaping of interrogations -- was very much in opposition to the overall philosophy behind these things.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )If you want to repeat that idiocy and let perfection be the enemy of the good again.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )Have we been observing the same Democratic Party for the last eight years?
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )That's the exact answer I would expect to hear from Ralph himself.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )But there's a laptop in Obama headquarters and it's sending, sending a text message that Joe Biden is Barack Obama's running mate...
[The 3am timing of the blast text message caught my eye.]
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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)Obama will narrowly lose. I'm convinced of this now.
McCain becomes the most despised president in history, and around 3 years from now almost completely removes himself from the public. He becomes gravely ill. His VP and surrogates run the show.
Hillary Clinton becomes president in 2012.
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)Obama's got too much of a tailwind to lose this election unless something truly huge befalls him.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )but I don't think a black man will be elected in 2008.
I'm not talking (or shrieking) about only the cross burning, lynching, white-sheets run 'em out of town, Jerry Springer Show racism. Or even people who bust out the N word after a few beers. It's gonna be way more than just those kind of cretins.
When it comes to election day, lots of people all over the US who now say they're for Obama will pull the lever for McCain. Partly from racism, partly because he has a foreign name, partly because he has foreign relatives and partly because to them he just doesn't 'feel right' to be president.
There's many levels of racist behavior, and there's lots of racist behavior in this country in 2008.
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| parent )If Obama loses (absent any enormous scandals breaking), it would be strong prima facie evidence that Americans are not ready for a black President.
I believe that the majority of voters who would never pull the lever for a black man, would never pull the lever for a Democrat anyway. Appalachia is the only region of the country where this might not hold.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )This Hill article is about union leadership being concerned that their members won’t give Obama a fair hearing because of race, but I don’t think this is the way to go about addressing it-
”In an apparent effort to embarrass union members into voting for the Democrat, Richard Trumka, the AFL-CIO’s secretary-treasurer, for months has warned that union members might vote against Obama because of his race.”
The blue collar folks I know don’t embarrass or intimidate easily. For the ones that are hung up on race they’ll need to come around on their own because they don’t like being pushed.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )the most profoundly racist group of people I know in the rust belt are union Democrats and I'll be interested to see which way they will break (class or race?) this fall.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )Swift-Boat Group Sinks Nearly $3 Million Into Ad Tying Obama To Ayers
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )...and has nothing to do with Sulla's comment.
Isn't this kind of non-sequitur what Open Threads are for?
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )I welcome comments alerting us to actions by Swift Boat scumbags in all of my diaries. It's a tradition.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )but not to the intended audience.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent ).
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )But some people explain life through the racism equivalent of six degrees of Kevin Bacon- if you look hard enough you can always find a racist connection, and if the connection isn’t obvious then there’s always those dogwhistles.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )Scary of the militant Black Panther kind. Can't use that comparison though, too obvious.
However, pointing out that Obama is black would be superfluous, since anyone with eyes can see that. Just concentrate on the scary and let those so inclined follow their own prejudices.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )is the subplot.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent ). . .because the theme of him as an unrepentant domestic terrorist wouldn't strike a nerve.
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| parent )How come such an unrepentant domestic terrorist can hold down a job as a distinguished professor of education at the University of Illinois-Chicago? or serve on the board of an anti-poverty group? Hardly the kind of gig you'd expect a true Tim McVeigh or Eric Rudolph type to be able to hold down is it?
9/11 changed a lot of things but it didn't turn William Ayers into the kind of domestic terrorist the GOP wants to portray him as or make his links to Obama any less tenuous or irrelevant.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )I think that's why.
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| parent )I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )no matter who wins they will become the most despised President in history. The parties seem to be locked in a partisan death spiral, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )What a goof.
--God help the while, a bad world I say.
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| parent )I can't imagine this is because of anything that happened today. If so, what? Why?
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )If it is like mine, he's even a worse choice for veep than I thought.
But seriously, that is one of the funniest McCain jokes I've ever heard. Only 24 hours into it and Moe Biden is exactly on form.
If you saw the statement on TV, you saw that even Biden's hyperpartisan audience barely laughed at it. Of course, they may have been wondering about Obama's "no personal atacks" commitment, or his promise to pick a dance partner "who is in politics for the right reasons."
Counting on the majority of the country being made up of liberals is a sucker bet.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )Personal attacks and ridicule are supposed to be for GOP candidates to employ only. Dems are supposed to, in Joe Leiberman's words, sit back and enjoy it.
I'll do what I can to make sure this never happens again. I feel, I dunno, like I'm supporting people who went into politics for the wrong reasons. And that would be bad.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )The press is pimping Biden as his "attack dog." Wait a minute, my parsing engine wasn't on: Obama never specifically said that his running mate wouldn't make personal attacks, just that he wouldn't. And while he's cast himself as an outsider fighting Washington, Obama never specifically said he wouldn't appoint someone who's been in the Senate since the Flood.
A question for you: when did Biden change his mind and conclude that Obama actually does have enough experience to qualify for the office?
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )that that method worked very, very well for Bush: pretend to stay clean and above it all, while your proxies go out and spew mud with a water cannon.
People paid attention when tactics like the rumor mill deployed against McCain in South Carolina and the Swift Boaters used against John Kerry drew blood. You and I can deplore the use of such tactics, but let's not pretend that it was Democrats who pioneered their use in modern politics.
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| parent )but I certainly agree that both sides do it. My point was that the "change" candidate has promised his supporters that he would be above the fray, and now has broken that promise. Of course I saw that coming, but it' still worth remarking on.
So far no one has told me how Joe Biden meets Obama's supposed VP standard of "someone who is in politics for the right reasons." Is the bar so low that Biden qualifies merely because he doesn't have any obvious sex or money scandals in his past? As a lifetime politician, Biden is so obviously a member of the entrenched DC establishment that Obama claims he is fighting against. Again, no surprise that Obama abandoned that theme like a hot potato when it came time to make the VP choice; I'm just noting its passing.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )is changing the failed Bush policies. Forgive me if I don't really care about Republicans having fainting spells because Obama has done about 1% of what the Republicans have done over the past 15 years.
I understand that the Republicans want to discount "change", but take a look at the polls. Even McCain is smart enough to say he's different from Bush, as inaccurate as that is.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Everyone knows personal attacks are inevitable. If you want to give BO a "bye" for doing something he promised he wouldn't do, be my guest.
Surely you know that the Dem Party powers are very uncomfortable with Obama's "hope/change/dream" shpiel because it has no specifics whatsoever. Go with it if you like, but take a look at the polls yourself.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )They're uncomfortable because they think he might actually mean it. No worries, though; it's becoming pretty apparent that he doesn't.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )I challenge you to find where Obama stated that he wouldn't attack Republicans even if they attacked him.
Misrepresenting what his aspirations are all about won't help you. You can explain the specifics of "Morning in America" if you think it will help.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )I hate it when that happens.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )about snark?
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )As this is not your first political campaign, I'm moderately surprised that you find it shocking, just shocking -- not to mention worth a question -- that a Veep nominee had actually criticized the man who selected him while they were running against each other earlier in the process. Good God, man. I'm sure that's never happened before. I don't know if Obama will be able to recover from something as condemning as this. Good catch!
These are like talking points from teenagers. The McCain campaign has to do it, I suppose, if only for a day or two. Not sure why you'd feel condemned to play along. Leave the embarrassing stuff to the guys who get paid.
And yes I'm sorry that Obama isn't the candidate you thought he was, and even sorrier that, unlike some before him, he actually fights back.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Criticizing the Holy Man always gets a condescending response like this from his acolytes, regardless of the subject. Your guy made a promise that he would be above the "personal attack" fray, then chose as running mate someone who is famous for exactly that. And who began personally attacking McCain less than twenty-four hours after the ink on his signing bonus clause was dry. If your best response is the one above, no response at all would have been more effective.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )is for the birds when your opponent's campaign consists of nothing but and manages to erode your polling lead with weeks of negative advertising buys. Nonetheless, I expect Obama will now remain largely on the high road on the policy/issues front, except when McCain again utters something so stupid and revealing it just can't be ignored. Leaving Biden to wield the baseball bat and administer regular punishment.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )That you're now wisely ignoring. That Biden criticized Obama during the primary season. And tried to pretend it was a big deal.
Heh. Remember Voodoo Economics? You're welcome!
But back to the point you're willing to defend. Obama has been ridiculed by folks similar to yourself for running on the Unity Pony and little else. Oddly enough, I think you liked it that way. It played to the type of Dem candidate you've come to love: you know, willing to turn the other cheek while the GOP smear machine revs into gear. And then, possibly, whining about the ill-treatment.
Anyone who thinks Obama was a saint is a fool. He's a Chicago politician. He's a pragmatic politician and always has been. Does he embrace elements of what one could call 'new politics'? Sure. But that's a diminishing part of the package, and for very smart strategic reasons. It won't get him to where he needs to be. The White House.
So now you're doing a little whining, suggesting that becuz he has the temerity to not only gladly take a punch but to return one in kind he is not the man you, and the GOP, required him to be.
Sorry it worked out that way. But this time the hacks and bullies in the GOP are going to find out that payback is a b*tch.
Hey. You want the Holier Than Thou high ground? It's yours, bub. Enjoy.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )unless you've salted away enough money to support you for the rest of your life. You completely missed the point of the Biden remarks in response to the video of McCain dissing Romney during - gosh! - the primaries.
I don't require Obama to be anything; he's fine just as he is. But is he someone "different" in terms of what he is willing to do to get elected? You admit above that he's not.
Your fourth para is true, but the objectivity of that perspective is a shock coming from you, and given what I assumed was your self-appointed role of attacking me and anyone else who criticizes Obama here.
Someone who hangs onto the every word of "Sully", "Josh" and other bosom buddies should be the last person to rail about "embarrassing talking points."
I disagree with the balance of your letter, including the date and the salutation.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )You might wanna watch that vid again. It is, by and large, John McCain making a desperate effort, and failing, to suggest why he would be an effective steward of the economy. It has nothing to do with Biden's primary criticisms of Obama.
Second, Sullivan and Marshall are bloggers, pundits, what have you. They don't do talking points.
You, however, couldn't run to the keyboard fast enough in order to forward the GOP's rapid response re Biden's criticism. Hey, we all screw up. No big deal.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )You, however, couldn't run to the keyboard fast enough in order to forward the GOP's rapid response re Biden's criticism.
Reread my note above about your mindreading inabilities. If you are as wrong about the election as you are here, you are in deep kimchee, my man.
Is it really that difficult for you to simply deal with the fact that Biden believed that Obama lacked the experience for the job when he was running in the primary? Hey, why not go with "Biden brings to the ticket the experience that Obama lacks" theme? It's more credible than anything you've said so far, and certainly is closer to the truth than any of your dodges.
I see this devolving into the hard-core Obamafan's (and now Bidenite's) "%^#$ you and the horse you rode in on," so let's save time and get there right now. Over to you. But first, thanks for this kneeslapper:
Sullivan and Marshall . . . don't do talking points.
OK, whatever you say. I haven't memorized their words so I guess I have to defer to you on that statement.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )At some point, if the model is accurate, the internals are irrelevant. Both you and BD would make a decent number of McCain bux. It really doesn't matter if you believe that you independently decided to post whatever the currently Republican talking point is or if you believe that you're spreading important shared information. The result is the same -- that if there is a set of talking points, we have a set of folks who are consistently ready to advocate for them.
Instead of accusing Harley of mindreading, it might be useful to try to figure out why he (and others) see the pattern.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )I don't see how one of the biggest purveyors of Democratic talking points on this site would even have the time to notice someone else's pattern, or have the gall to criticize anyone or claiming they're doing what is his avocation.
Additionally, when Harley or others attempt the "talking point" ruse, it's really just a dismissive shorthand "shut up" put down. Let's not pretend they're "noticing a pattern" as if this is some useful observation for the rest of us.
Unless turning this place into more of an echo chamber is "useful", and if that's the definition, my apologies, you are correct.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )Seems like tomsyl and I can handle this without pompous blathering designed to frame the argument in a manner intended to glorify the speaker of, you know, the blather.
And by the way, this is the 2,443rd time you've employed the "I Know You Are But What Am I?" rhetorical gambit. Well done.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )It's only the 2369th time.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )Recount!
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Just don't touch the hanging chad.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )I use a Diebold touch screen system anyway.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )More here. One imagines a conversation between him and Oscar Wilde.
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| parent )Hard not to like a guy who writes an aphorism about writing aphorisms...
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )But here's the best part. You accused me of being one of the biggest talking points purveyors on the site approximately four sentences before suggesting that anyone who accuses someone of purveying talking points is in fact just offering dismissive shorthand meant to stifle debate and turn the Forvm into an echo chamber. Says Mac about anyone who makes that thinwitted accusation:
Duly noted!!
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )that the "you're just spouting talking points" line is irrelevant and unnecessarily personal.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )I defy you to take my last 50 posts or so and find "Democratic talking points" (plural) in them.
"The Republican Party is a quasi-fascist institution" is not a Democratic talking point.
"Bobby Jindal is a scary fundie," is not a Democratic talking point.
"Sarah Palin has a young kid with special needs and probably won't want to do a national campaign," is not a Democratic talking point.
"Punditus Maximus likes booze," is not a Democratic talking point.
"John McCain is old enough that it's affecting his health" is not a Democratic talking point.
"Barack Obama is moving to the center" is not a Democratic talking point.
It turns out that "Democratic talking point" is not a synonym for "thing I don't agree with." Please update your dictionaries accordingly.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )You might want to re-read your post, and mine, this song isn't about you.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )I'm the one you were making sh*t up about.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )just throwing around another Republican talking point.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )I live in Los Angeles. Keep up. (Unless, of course, the title was a rhetorical device you borrowed from Timmy.)
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )I wish I had made that up, but it's from Denis Johnson's Already Dead, an immensely enjoyable novel about California and its inmates that a friend just gave me, and that everyone should read.
No, Harley, I didn't really think you stayed forever in that coffeeshop with the great pie in Snoqualmie. But I bet you still miss dinner at The Herb Garden.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )I just took a time out to listen to some old Pat Methany/Lyle Mays and watch the moon come up over the water, and by the time I got from "The Truth Will Always Be" to "Airstream", my bones had melted and all the meanness ran out my ears. Forget everything I've said today. Cheers.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )I hope you saved that meanness. It's going to come in handy later. :)
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )You're above responding in a bones melting 'Airstream' sorta way?
Why, there oughta be a law.
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| parent )Well, at least that was my New Years resolution.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )The worst Biden ever had to say about Obama didn't have the experience for the job of POTUS. Obama's reply at the time was astute: nobody comes prepared to be President.
For me, anyway, it's curious watching the job of Vice President evolve over time. Some of our best presidents, notably Lincoln, pragmatically filled their cabinets with people who disagreed with them. Anyone who doesn't solicit the flip side of his policies can only guess about the downsides of implementing those policies. Yes-men are so dangerous, they'll tell you anything, reinforce dumb ideas and propose plenty more dumbitude all on their own.
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| parent )In the end it is all contrasting... If you can't run on the record of the last eight years your options.. In McCain teams view is to make it all about the opposition... Change can be many things change from the last eight years change of policy priorities. Tactical change and leadership change.. It does not have to be change that says I am above all attacks or even attacking..
What is that favorite saying if you can win on the facts argue the law and if you can win on either pound the table and change the subject... What I see from McCain as of late is pounding on the table...
What I think is funny is that I have the complete opposite view of Biden you do...In Foreign policy I do not see him as hyper partisan.
Republican Senator and McCain friend Chuck Hagel lavishes praise on the Obama-Biden ticket:
“Joe Biden is the right partner for Barack Obama. His many years of distinguished service to America, his seasoned judgment and his vast experience in foreign policy and national security will match up well with the unique challenges of the 21st Century. An Obama-Biden ticket is a very impressive and strong team. Biden’s selection is good news for Obama and America,” Hagel said in a statement released to reporters Saturday morning.
WASHINGTON -- Indiana GOP Sen. Richard Lugar praised the choice of Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., to be Barack Obama’s running mate Saturday, although Lugar said he was disappointed that his Hoosier colleague wasn’t picked.
“I congratulate Sen. Barack Obama on his selection of my friend,” Lugar said of Biden. “I have enjoyed for many years the opportunity to work with Joe Biden to bring strong bipartisan support for United States foreign policy.”
Biden is the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and Lugar is the top Republican. The two have worked closely together on the committee when both the Democrats and Republicans have held control of the Senate.
Now if you are a hyper partisan Conservative or GOP guy this just is RINO's talking... Right?
--Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your
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| parent )which will emerge in the next three months. I have no problem acknowledging that in response to a reasonable comment like yours; it's the "you're an idiot if you don't love Obama" posts that aren't worth anything but a laugh.
IMO there are several people Obama could have chosen that would worsen his chances, and very few who would dramatically help him. I put Biden in neutral to slightly positive territory, and I guess that his freedom from scandal was a key factor. Ultimately, though, the Obama campaign is betting that enough people in the country are liberals to elect two liberals, one of them a lifetime member of Congress, and I don't think that's ever been true.
Right now you're seeing contrasting views on how well Biden fits the template Obama claimed he would use to make the selection. Which is entirely logical and appropriate, despite the stuck pig screams of his sycophants. Not remotely meaning you, D., but there certainly are a few of those here.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )...his kitchen table is just like all those Americans who live on family compounds? I'm sure the Kennedys can relate.
Day 1, and he's already being so...what's the term...oh yeah, so Joe Biden.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )Joe Biden, along with Russ Feingold, the poorest guy in the Senate. Hey, where was he when the Beer Heiresses were handed out?
You can attack him for the gaffes, blah blah blah. But trying to turn him into something he's not? Seems sorta dishonest.
I love the guy. When his Catholicism was questioned, he said: The next Republican that tells me I'm not religious, I'm going to shove my rosary beads down their throat.
Can you imagine Mitt trying to navigate thru a debate with this guy? They oughtta sell tickets.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )We all love Hol