Book Review: Fareed Zakaria's The Post-American World
Fareed Zakaria's new book The Post-American World begins: "This is not a book about the decline of America, but rather about the rise of everyone else." He recycles many of the same arguments as Tom Friedman, with considerable gusto. But it seems mostly like a collection of well-worn nostrums: yes, the rest of the world is rising, but we'll do what we've always done as Americans. We'll reinvent ourselves, as we've always done.
Michiko Kakutani also reviews the book for NYTimes.com.

I was standing outside my hotel the other night: three nervous Indian boys were smoking, chatting in Hindi. I made my introductions, it turned out this was their first time in America. We talked about where go get groceries, the oddities of Houston traffic, where the Hindu temple was. I told them "Don't worry: America's just a state of mind. You're welcome here: we're all from somewhere else."
American dominance in the world was always an illusion. The Cold War was won by default, the rotten façade of Communism fell down, helped along by two unsung heroes of civilization: Mikhail Gorbachev and George HW Bush.
There never was an American Century. The only reason we ever had preeminence on the world stage was this: the rest of the world was so badly led. India and China should have arisen as great powers after WW2: all the necessary ingredients were there. India's Partition left it prostrate and bleeding, China was even more self-destructive. If these powers have arisen in the world, it is because they have ceased shooting off their own toes.
America hasn't changed very much. It's rather like those optical illusions or camouflage schemes where one sees things oddly against a contrasting background. The world has changed, yes. And yes, our world view has changed somewhat. But America continues to pursue many of the same goals it always did, in the same ways we've always pursued them, for both better and worse.
First time visitors to the USA are always impressed by the scale of the country. America has always seemed insular and self-obsessed from afar, but a cross country drive will cure anyone of this belief. It is a miracle we've remained united at all, and it was a narrow scrape in the 1850s. America's foreign policy is shaped by our own world view: we can't fully comprehend these idiotic regimes failing to provide peace and plenty for their own people. If we abstractly oppose illegal immigration and dumping of manufactured products, furious at the tariffs and obstacles required to sell our own products on foreign shores, it is because we have maintained reasonably good relations with our own bordering countries and cannot imagine others not doing so.
Fareed Zakaria is an idiot. He babbled on and on, rah-rah-ed the invasion of Iraq and urged the Iraqi Army to be disbanded. He was secretly fed tidbits from the table of Donald Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz the whole time, like some greedy little dog under Grandma's table, begging scraps. Never did a man talk so much out of both sides of his mouth during the Iraq War. If he now talks about a Post-American World, his sense of American history and geopolitical track record is broken.
America has a feckless track record in China, going right back to Gunboat Diplomacy in the Boxer Rebellion. But while the Japanese were enslaving Korea and Manchukuo, America stood aside and let it happen. We did sell a few fighter aircraft to Chiang Kai-Shek, but Japan's aggression might have been stopped far earlier, had we exhibited the moral fortitude to put an end to it. America has a long track record of putting off the inevitable until things reach a Pearl Harbor or 9/11. It might be argued our war in Vietnam was another case of American fecklessness, a half-hearted war, fought for no good purpose, ended by selling out our allies. If America has lost face in the world, it is because we have failed to stand up for our own principles of democracy and human rights.
America was never an Overbearing Hegemon. We were merely Gulliver in Lilliput, tied down in our sleep by legions of tiny idiots. If you remember the story, Gulliver took sides in Lilliput's war of the Big-Endians against the Little-Endians.
All great Empires have their day in the sun. It's generally a period of about two centuries. The Persian Empire, the Ottomans, the British, the Russians, they all begin to hollow out, once a new crop of Athenian elites arise to undo democracy. America's beginning to hollow out, too. But that's inevitable, we'll make it somehow. We're the only Empire which gave its greatness away. If Zakaria wants to breathlessly declare this the Post-American World, he's dumber than I thought. America's greatness is seen like a splintered holograph, the entire picture visible in each fragment, scattered across the world.
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That's a tough sell. If Fareed Zakaria is an idiot, who are the the really good poli-sci writers?
I still take down The Future of Freedom and reread it every so often. Great book. I haven't read Post-American, but I'll get around to it when I have the time.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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)We're the only Empire which gave its greatness away
If you don't recognize the role played in America by the British Empire, her August institutions and her Doughty subjects, especially in the early days, you need to go back to the history books.
I think that the fecklessness in China either goes back much earlier than the Boxer rebellion (The Japanese weren't the first nor certainly the only foreign power to meddle in China.) or, more fairly, the fecklessness started with Wilson's 14 Points and their immediate betrayal with respect to the interests of Allies like China being sold down the river.
Just another quick note about China and India, I think they did rise as great powers after WWII. China especially, I can't go into the shops without being overwhelmed by products made in China.
--Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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)have Made in China stickers on them-
"Last year, the foundation selected Chinese master sculptor Lei Yixin to work on the memorial. He was banished to the countryside during the Cultural Revolution but is now considered a national treasure with a lifelong stipend from the government.
Critics said that an African American artist, or any American, would have been preferable."
At what point will this be considered getting out of control?
--"I can no more disown him [Reverend Jeremiah Wright] than I can disown the black community"- Senator Barack Obama, March 18, 2008
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| parent )Not to point out the obvious, but the Statute of Liberty is a bronze French chick. Considering the endless piles of crap--sometimes literally--that are produced by US artists along with the good stuff, I'm not overly concerned about the nationality of the artist as compared to the quality of their work, though it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to have the spooks go over the finished product to make sure it won't blow up or spy on us when it's done.
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| parent )the Statue of Liberty was a gift from the French, which makes your point a little less obvious unless the King memorial is a gift from the Chinese.
--"I can no more disown him [Reverend Jeremiah Wright] than I can disown the black community"- Senator Barack Obama, March 18, 2008
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| parent )Here I indulge in Woulda-Couda-Shoulda, a game I'm guilty of accusing others of playing, but here goes:
Consider what might have happened if Lord North had sized up the situation with more insight. Great Britain was fighting a much larger war at the time for control of the Caribbean. North America was only an entr'acte: the wars with France would continue long after America got its independence. The French monarchy was on its last legs politically: this war would eventually bankrupt France.
The British could have responded to the entirely reasonable demands for representation by setting up some parliamentary mechanism for the colonies, say in Philadelphia. But the British weren't amenable to such a scheme. They would continue to behave stupidly in Ireland, much closer to home, and eventually lose that as well. The Kingdom of Scotland and its relations with the British Crown might have served as a model, for both good and ill. There was no good reason to deny either the Scots or the North American colonists representation in Parliament.
The Act of Union would sour relations with the Scots, and the heavy-handed treatment of the Irish, Scots and others showed the American colonists the British Crown viewed them with contempt. By the middle 1700s, there was little hope for representation, but even then, it was incomprehensible for the colonists to view themselves as anything other than British subjects.
The British Crown was very badly advised, and the French would capitalize on this stupidity. Antagonizing the American colonists in time of war was folly and madness. In time, relations with the UK would be patched up, and they remain our most loyal friends to this day.
As for American relations with China, I don't know what could have been done to help the Chinese people overcome the slothful and undemocratic late Manchu empire. China had not always been so badly governed. My grandfather told me terrible tales of banditry and lawlessness throughout China. Warlords were about, the whole country was mired in chaos, lost in an opium haze. It was my grandfather who first told me Communism could only arise in the chaos of a feudal state. What might have happened if the West had approached Mao Zedong in friendship? To hear my grandfather, who by then was very old, whispering to me through the handicap of his hemiplegic stroke, the OSS knew Mao would eventually win, for Mao had the support of the peasants.
All wishful thinking, to be sure, and depressing to write. The one lesson we learn from history is that we do not learn from history. Democracy arises from within a people, it cannot be transplanted. But we could have made friends where we made needless enemies.
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| parent )I think I've said before here that had the capable young Pitt been a little older, American history would have taken a different course. Maybe more like Canada - the 1837 rebellions in Upper and Lower Canada led to the Whigs sending 'Radical Jack' Lord Durham to set things right. The reforms he instituted were used with some success from Australia to Africa. But I agree that British policy was never so poorly managed as it was in the period you mention.
The British leadership can justly be blamed for a lot a muddling, but British Jacobins like Tom Paine must also take credit for their role in the revolution - the ideas that inspired the revolutionaries were more British or French than American.
Are you saying that the British were antagonizing the Americans during the French/Indian wars? You mean the quartering of troops and the taxation to pay for the thing? I've always thought that the Americans were showing a very ugly side of their character through this affair, and I suspect most Brits would agree with me. And speaking as you do of the enduring nature of the nation, we see the same thing at work today in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not a soul in the US is talking about raising an army large enough to do the job; hopes are that foreign proxies will do all the dirty work.
You should ask your relatives about 'rice christians' in China. Just another indignity that the communists could exploit. In the 19th century, the nation was an absolute catastrophe thanks to drought, Western imposed laissez faire economics, and incompetent, detested leadership. It led to astonishing levels of emiseration. There wasn't a lot Americans could do about any of this, as I mentioned, I think its fair to look at Wilson's 14 points as the place to start in that regard.
--Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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| parent )Especially from the French side of things. I once heard a historian say three sorts of European came to the New World, and saw three different sorts of people. The Spanish came and saw converts and slaves. The English came and saw savages. The French came and saw people.
This may be a glib reading of the New World, neither of us were there, and the views of the native peoples remain largely unknown. I did talk at length to an old Osage woman at the tribal museum while I was in Bartlesville Oklahoma. The Osage had contact with the French long before the other cultures, though they knew of the Spanish to the south. Pierre Chouteau, who would later go on the Lewis and Clark expeditions, was the first white man the Osage ever dealt with on a long-term basis. He had an exclusive trading concession with the Osage, learned their language well and lived among them. At the time, they lived much nearer to what would become St Louis, their name for themselves was NiuKonska, the people of the middle rivers, for they lived at the confluence of the Mississippi and Missouri rivers. But our word for them, Osage, is a a corruption of the word Wazhazhe. The French spelled it Osage, sounded o-sa-zhe, the English turned it into oh-sage.
Jim Gray, the chief of the Osage speaks French, I met him once, and his French is rather good, using surprisingly antique phrases now only heard in Quebec. I was stunned. It is perhaps the only time I have ever felt in the presence of history.
As for the Rice Christians, I can say this: the Lisu people of the Salween valley still cling to their Christian faith in secret. I have met Lisu (the Chinese call them Meo now) Christians in the USA, one of whom unfurled a tiny cotton banner, containing the lyrics of a Christian song, certainly taught by the missionaries, a translation to the tune of Jesus Loves Me, this I Know. Most of the Christians of the Salween valley were murdered by the Red Guard. As for the evils of laissez-faire capitalism and the rest, I cannot speak to that. The upper reaches of the Salween and Mekong are among the remotest places on earth, people continue to farm tiny subsistence plots. They do not even speak Chinese as a first language, and they are treated very badly, much like the people of Tibet.
We overestimate our importance in the world. There is a difference between qualitative and quantitative in these things. Often, it is the small acts of decency and kindness which have the most impact: the larger struggles pass over the heads of the people. The American troops who fought in the South Pacific were kindly and generous to the people of Micronesia and New Guinea, and we are remembered in the form of John Frum, a figure much like Jesus Christ, only wearing a helmet and the uniform of an infantryman, who saved them from the Japanese, gave them precious things, loved them, left them, and will return one day. We forget the Pierre Chouteaus and the John Frums in our much talking about the Great and Powerful. It is faithful Samwise and fallible Frodo who saw Gollum most truly, who take the Ring to the Fire, not the wise or the strong.
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| parent )I doubt that most of the Lisu Christians of the Salween Valley were murdered by the Red Guard or anyone else. The Red Guards were mostly High School students on a jag. On occasion they did persuade the local military to open their arsenals to them, so anything is possible but it seems they fought mostly with each other.
This territory is extremely remote and atypical of China in almost every regard. The Salween Valley was closed to foreigners when I was there last, but I have travelled in quite a bit of other parts of Yunnan, and visited thriving Christian (mostly Catholic) Churches. Priests were chased out years ago and the cities were centres of controversy around the issue of loyalty to the the Vatican Pope or the Beijing Pope. In the tiny isolated villages I have visited, Flower Hmong, Lahu, and Yi villagers etc practised quite openly. They have been doing so even through the heaviest days of the cultural revolution. I found it all quite inspirational, the dogged determination of these extremely simple people - they still slept under the same roof with their meagre livestock. They also revered the old Belgian and French priests who'd set up these churches off the narrow gauge rail route that still runs between Hanoi and Kunming. Christianity never looked so fine to me before or since I saw the sincere devotion of these splendid people.
If it's massacres you're interested in, I'm afraid I can only offer a fairly recent one against, sorry, Muslims:
During 1992 the Pingyuan district of south-west Yunnan was attacked and controlled by mainly Muslim drug producers, drug traffickers and arms counterfeiters. But a 2000-strong armed police force was sent in to restore law and order,
an operation ending in the surrender of the local godfather and the seizure of 896 kg of heroin and sizeable arms caches. Ethnic, religious or clan solidarity at local level is a sine qua non for the development of mafia groups.
As I heard it, Pingyuan served as a major transshipment point for narcotics. It was the People's Armed Militia that attacked, undoubtedly the local cops were in cahoots with the townsfolk doing what Muslims always do. The quote comes from a UN document, and they don't mention any death toll. I was in the same area and heard that there were heavy casualties as a result of a lengthy and raging battle.
Info on Laissez Faire in China comes mostly from Mike Davis' Late Victorian Holocausts - kind of a black book of Capitalism.
--Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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| parent )As he and his family would have no good reason to lie about it, I will preferentially take the word of an eyewitness. As for the Restoration of Law and Order by China's Heroic Constabulary, the world hears much in these days of Tibet. But the same things are being done to the Lisu as are being done to the Tibetans, and by the same Heroic Constabulary and may I add, by the same Han Chinese immigrants who are now taking their land.
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| parent )I never said your 'eyewitness' lied about anything. Consider, why not, the possibility that it's you who is mistaken. That's my theory, and unless you can persuade me otherwise, I'm sticking to my guns on this one.
There's not much good to be said of the Peoples Armed Militia (they are not the Red Guard, incidentally) but I remember meeting a very nervous HK business man getting transport from Guangzhou to back to HK. According to this guy, the bus service run by the PAM is about the only way of guaranteeing the making trip without being hijacked by pirates. Look for the WJ in the licence plate number.
--Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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| parent )"we can't fully comprehend these idiotic regimes failing to provide peace and plenty for their own people"
depends on what they class as their own people, and
the US has not exactly excelled on that score
either.
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)'Cause I'm making more money than I have in my life, and all my neighbors are driving bigger cars than I do. Never mind seeing starvelings or mass-migrations due to famine or ethnic cleansing. Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong crowd WRT this 'plenty' thing. :^)
--The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
- H.L. Mencken
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| parent )I know what I'd rather have.
--Manish Ghosh
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| parent )The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
- H.L. Mencken
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| parent )'If America has lost face in the world, it is because we have failed to stand up for our own principles of democracy and human rights."
Especially compared to the self confidence of, say, the British in the mid 19th century who were convinced they were bringing peace and plenty to the world. I actually think that the USA has a much better pedigree in acting as an exemplar of democracy and plurality, even though conservatives condemn the current hyperdemocracy and hyperplurality - our Constitution is in many ways a copy of the US Constitution.
But Americans have been strangely lacking in persisting with self-confidence with the promotion of the American values of democracy and equality of opportunity on a prolonged scale.
The self-doubt showed in the recent argument in the forvm on the state of American schools. You need to see the state of schools in the ROW, guys.
--Manish Ghosh
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)Honest, we really do have problems. Here is one study:
Here's another:
Like I said before, our higher educational system is quite good, though access could be a lot better. Our primary and secondary education, however, is substandard when compared to other industrialized countries. Together with health care, it's the biggest problem for our continuing competitiveness, and if you ask me, it's even harder to solve than health care.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )but structurally we remain a constitutional republic, emphasis on stability.
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )exactly what did you have in mind?
Of note, Pearl happened because we forced the issue (an oil embargo) with the Imperial Empire.
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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)with Commodore Perry's battleships? Japan's ambitions in China and the Pacific were well-known.
I will tell you a true story. My grandfather was a missionary in the upper reaches of the Salween River. He met two American agents of the OSS in Kunming, who advised him to leave China, for the Japanese were likely to defeat Chiang's regime. Mao Zedong had retreated to an area just north of Kunming: Mao would wait out the war.
He did leave, and picked up his children, then in a British-run boarding school in Cheefoo. The building is now the Chinese Navy's equivalent of Annapolis. The British poo-poohed the idea of Japanese hegemony. My grandfather sailed from Shanghai on a Japanese freighter to Rangoon and from thence to Seattle. My mother arrived in Seattle on the first of December 1941. We all know what happened on the 7th. Most of my mother's childhood friends died in Japanese concentration camps.
It's all past history, armchair general-ing of the worst sort, yes I admit it. But it points to a longstanding pattern in American foreign policy: the tendency to avoid a problem, deny it, wish it away until the problem crashes into our laps. We're doing it now, half-o-this and none-o-that and ever more pollyanna talk about American Hegemony. If anything, we haven't been hegemonic enough. The only thing we ever got right was the Cold War.
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| parent )is that your Nippon segue to the 30s.
If you are generally making the comment, that the American Left has a geopolitical view which is similar to Taft Republicans, I don't disagree.
With respect to the Cold War, was it because of our fwd outlook or did we just get lucky?
Are we, America, capable of pursuing a long term policy without an "end game"? That is, who will be Bush's Ike?
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )The Japanese were abusing American sailors shipwrecked on their shores. The Shogunate of Tokugawa Ieyoshi thought he would be Billy Bad Ass and play rough with the West. Commodore Perry proceeded to pound sand up that aforementioned Bad Ass. This was not merely some Opening up of Commerce. He got exactly what he came for, and the whole wretched Tokugawa shogunate fell immediately thereafter.
If the United States and Great Britain, then the great powers in the Pacific had shot their way into Tokyo Harbor again, cutting off the Japanese troops in Manchukuo, blowing the doors off the Tojo regime, the world would be a different place today.
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| parent )is actually what it was all about.
It is generally understood that the blowing the doors off the "Tojo regime" would be an expensive engagement; two bombs made it far more cost effective as well as feasible.
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )was condemned by the League of Nations in the early 1930s. But of course, the same people who hate the UN today hated the League of Nations back then. It was well understood what was happening in China: we didn't care. We were up to our necks in the Depression. The Stimson Doctrine said the USA was opposed to Japan's hegemony in 1932. The world knew exactly what the score with Imperial Japan was, and had known for over a decade before 7 December 1941.
Hoover sat on his dead ass and did nothing. The British did nothing. In 1933, the US Navy staged a mock attack by Japan on Pearl Harbor, precisely because it understood such a war was in the offing.
Sealing off Japan by sea was well within the mandate and ability of the US Navy. We could have forcefully convinced the Japanese in no uncertain terms to cease its predations on China in 1932, when the Stimson Declaration was first set forth. But again, I reiterate my first point: America never acts until the problem arrives on our doorstep, and then acts So Surprised. Each war is followed by some restatement of American purpose, oh we won't get caught with our britches down again, oh no -- and then it happens again. And again.
We're not an Empire. The idea is repugnant to us. We always want to meet somebody half-way, as if our enemies will do nothing but play Achilles and the Turtle, asking for yet another advantage, breaking another promise, imprisoning another dissident. Free beer tomorrow the sign on the wall of Duffy's Tap says, and it's been hanging there for years. He who would call this the Post-American World must realize it was never an American world.
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| parent )On that level, Blaise, it looks like you and Zakaria agree. As do I. Getting past Zakaria's silly, ill-conceived labels (that we're moving from "anti-Americanism" to "post-Americanism") and looking at his actual content (from what I read in his Newsweek piece), I have a hard time disputing what he actually said. Clearly his assessments were off base in 2003, but it looks like he's wizened up over the last five years.
I also agree with you that America is a state of mind, mostly because it was founded on an idea rather than this or that ethnic group. This is why I disagree with your notion that we're "hollowing out". The principles will get bashed around a bit over the years, but freedom, civil rights and rule of law are going to remain for a long time to come, and it remains an advantage over the up-and-comers like China and India and Russia. I remember back in the 1980s when Japan became an emergent economic powerhouse and pundits were worrying that the U.S. was going to be a subsidiary of Japan, Inc. Twenty years later, it looks like China has replaced Japan for the worry-warts.
--"So hopefully there is a 527 out there right now willing to ruin John McCain's and/or his family's reputation if it needs to be done."
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| parent )...little help? Seriously.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )I'm not sure what you're saying or asking, but the U.S. is solidly free in terms of civil liberties and political rights.
--"So hopefully there is a 527 out there right now willing to ruin John McCain's and/or his family's reputation if it needs to be done."
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| parent )From the same website:
But don't worry; I'm sure Senator McCain, with his demonstrated commitment to civil liberties and transparency in government, would act swiftly and decisively to hold his Party's highest officers accountable and restore trust in our institutions.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )The overview the necessary context and perspective that you failed to provide:
"So hopefully there is a 527 out there right now willing to ruin John McCain's and/or his family's reputation if it needs to be done."
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| parent )My thesis:
The Bush Administration is bad on these issues.
Freedom House's thesis:
The Bush Administration is bad on these issues, but our overall system has been resilient enough to absorb the shock, so things aren't that bad.
Your thesis:
PM is cherry-picking by not including the irrelevant fact that the Bush Administration has been restrained by the overall system.
...
Well, I do have to thank you for the (second) accusation of intellectual dishonesty today, but I think I'm comfortable with my original statements.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )I agree that your thesis is that the Bush is bad on these issues. The thesis from Freedom House and myself is that your thesis is overblown and overwrought. But thanks anyway for mischaracterizing my thoughts on the matter. As for your cherry-picking, it speaks for itself.
--"So hopefully there is a 527 out there right now willing to ruin John McCain's and/or his family's reputation if it needs to be done."
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| parent )Well, don't worry -- if the candidates you have endorsed continue in power, even Freedom House will have to deign to notice that we have thousands of immigrants detained for months without any hope of a hearing to determine their status -- including, of course, their children, who are left unschooled in prisonlike conditions.
Or that forced sexual intercourse between men in prison is so ubiquitous that it is the subject of comedy -- or, indeed, that the US has the highest proportion of prisoners in the world. (Please note that this is a direct refutation of Freedom House's absurd premise that those criticizing the US do not make reference to the practices of other nations.)
Heck, we may even find other persons with good tans to detain for years without charges or trial. Or entire camps in which we can hold innocent working people for years before noticing that they were innocent -- or getting around to a show trial.* All the while claiming that the area itself is exempt from US law due to an absurd combination of legal loopholes.
Bush has been horrific on these issues, either exacerbating already extant problems or creating new ones. In addition, his Party's leadership has followed him in lockstep. I understand the thoughts of those who view McCain as a possible return to sanity, but I cannot see why anyone would trust any candidate from an institution with as terrible a recent track record as the Republican Party -- even if the individual candidate had some decency, the Party itself is committed to foulness.
*It is worthy of note that Senator McCain has stated his intention to close Guantanamo Bay, though he has not cosponsored the Senate bill requiring such.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )his quote infers that the US will self correct by voting the Republicans out of office and making them do penance in the wilderness before they're trusted with power again. I personally think that some war crime tribunals would help with the process, it would allow the few remaining Republicans with a conscience to show that they support the Constitution rather than a one party dictatorship.
--Forget the myths the media's created about the White House. The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand. - Deep Throat
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| parent )just to give us a taste of it. We've forgotten how free we are, and have gotten flabby in the personal liberties department, if you get my drift here.
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| parent )an early example
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )Surprised more Conservatives aren't up in arms about it.
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| parent )I think they know it's aimed at their real enemies, not at themselves.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )you are kidding here are you not? I would suggest you read this carefully. When you don't have an army, an airforce and your navy is rusting, it is difficult to project power over a very great distance.
In addition, I am very interested in the "mandate" you rolled out.
China was invaded in 37, you failed to mention who was the Prez at the time. I figure you should at least get the time line right.
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )And this isn't a pissing contest. The US Navy understood enough about the problem to wargame a Japanese naval assault on Pearl Harbor when the problem began. I note you're not quite up to denying that part of my post.
Manchukuo was created in 1931, 32. And the Stimson Doctrine was 1932. Now just who was president in 1932, Timmy? Don't make me give you a history lesson.
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| parent )and a game is a far different than the actual thing. But thank you for making my case, because it illustrates that Japan had a 1st class navy (why would you run a wargame, if they did not).
China was invaded by the Imperial Empire in 37 just look it up. The Prez at the time was FDR. And the Prez was far more concerned about Europe than he was about Asia. Please refer to the Atlantic Charter.
Let me sum it up for you, we didn't have the military to exert the force you pine for. It is simple as that.
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )and the US Navy was in pretty good shape. The Japanese didn't go to a serious war footing until well after 1935, commencing in earnest in 1937. Had the USA and the West put their feet down and told Japan to cease its predations in Manchukuo, we would not have faced them, shaking our fists in surprise in December of 1941.
Japan did not have a first class navy in 1931. Japan withdrew from the Washington Naval Conference 5:5:3 treaty in 1937. Every significant Japanese ship we faced was built thereafter, certainly every aircraft carrier. Even after the Japanese had withdrawn, we still wouldn't face facts.
This goes to my point: America is too friendly by half, we never recognize an enemy until we've taken one on the chin.
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| parent )objectives.
Simply put, we didn't until after the fact.
Japan, (of note, two of the four carriers at Midway were built in the 20s both began refitting before 33) was violating the treaty well before 37 (it exited the treaty in 33 or was it 34) and the US didn't have the navy you envision, as the following illustrates.
The Washington Treaty of 1922 initially limited the Japanese to 315,000 tons of capital ships, 60% of the 525,000 tons allowed to the United States. The United States and Britain had to reduce their navies (the United States scrapped 15 battleships and cruisers that had been under construction) while the Japanese had to build up to get to their “limitation.” With the stroke of a pen, Japan reduced the size of the US Navy while being allowed to increase the size of its own navy. This was followed by the 1930 London Treaty that further restricted Japanese naval strength by limiting the Japanese to 108,400 tons of heavy cruisers, 60.23% of the American heavy cruiser force, to 100,450 tons of light cruisers, 70% of the American allowance, and 52,700 tons of submarines.
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )It changes nothing. We knew, right from the start, as soon as the first plane flew off the deck of the Langley in 1920, the battleship and cruiser were dinosaurs. And so did everyone else. The USA didn't scrap anything in the ways. We converted the half-built Lexington and Saratoga cruisers to the Lexington class carrier, which would go on to be the decisive weapon of the Pacific.
The bugs had been worked out of the Lexington class carriers by 1930. We were in good shape to deal with the Japanese. I believe I know what I'm talking about here.
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| parent )You say "We knew, right from the start, as soon as the first plane flew off the deck of the Langley in 1920, the battleship and cruiser were dinosaurs". I'd say some visionary people knew that, but there were many others who thought naval power was projected by big guns and remained suspicious of air power even through Pearl Harbor and Midway.
And in your diary you lament our half hearted and ill advised ventures in Vietnam and Iraq, yet you advocate blowing the doors off the Tojo regime. With history as your guide, why do you think we'd have been any more successful with the Japanese then we were in Vietnam or Iraq? Without some type of occupying force I don't see how just smacking Japan down militarily would have changed anything. Things may have been delayed a bit, assuming we were successful, but I don't see how the long term situation in Asia would have been any different.
--"I can no more disown him [Reverend Jeremiah Wright] than I can disown the black community"- Senator Barack Obama, March 18, 2008
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| parent )In both, we became involved in someone else's civil war. Had we done to Vietnam and Iraq what we did to the Japanese, install an American Caesar like MacArthur, we would be using our military power as it ought to be used. I'm not saying we ought to have used them at all. I merely observe they were used in the wrong manner.
The Japanese military was only built up in the late 1930s. The crucial year was 1932, when we first realized the Japanese were up to no good and said so. In the 1930s, we had the Curtiss and Martin aircraft, perfectly capable of flying off aircraft carriers to drop torpedoes and sink battleships. It would be just such this sort of lumbering antique which would sink the Bismarck.
The Mitsubishi Zero emerged in 1940. We had good close air support in the P-40 Warhawk and a Zero killer in the P-41 Mustang, developed at the same time. The P-40 saw action in China against the Japanese. We knew perfectly well what was at stake and who the enemy was.
Had we taken the Japanese down a peg back then, they would have never embarked upon their militaristic conquests in the Pacific. Admiral Yamamoto knew the score: he knew Tojo was wrong about America's empty threats. The Americans would never just walk away from an attack on Pearl Harbor.
And therein lies the tale of the tape. America will come out fighting once it's been sufficiently enraged, but not a minute before. There are always a crop of dumbasses to afflict American foreign policy, issuing empty threats, leaving wars half-fought. Better no threat than an empty threat: Saddam didn't believe we'd invade, either. All our threats had been empty to that point.
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| parent )er who was the President?
When did the Curtiss and Martin aircraft become operational?
P-41, er the P-51 Mustang, while it may have emerged in 41 but it wasn't until late 42 that it became a Zero buster.
Finally, where were all the pilots?
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )Forget the myths the media's created about the White House. The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand. - Deep Throat
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| parent )that had we struck a decisive blow to Japan in the early thirties they still would not have militaristic ambitions for the Pacific. Surely some of their leadership would have been weary of crossing America again, but others surely would have argued that in light of American aggression it was in Japan's best interests to milatarize further and secure the natural resources they needed in the name of self defense.
And yes, our actions in Vietnam and Iraq were different than Japan, but the question is if we'd struck Japan first how do you know it wouldn't have been half assed? We wouldn't have been sufficiently enraged enough to use the military in the way you counsel it ought to be.
--"I can no more disown him [Reverend Jeremiah Wright] than I can disown the black community"- Senator Barack Obama, March 18, 2008
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| parent )Can't you see the problem I'm describing is Empty Threats? How much further do I have to belabor this point? For crissakes, the Japanese didn't take us seriously. All the political niceties of carefully drafted Doctrines and circumspect tiptoeing around racist maniacs like the Imperial Japanese only greased the skids.
I contend, if we had done with Japan what we did with the USSR, bluntly rebuff Stalin's efforts to swallow West Berlin, things would turn out differently. Every time the Communists ratcheted things up, we countered. We won the Cold War because we understood our enemy. We were stalemated in Korea, but the Chinese never tried a stunt like that again until Pol Pot, and even then, the Vietnamese beat the living hell out of the Chinese. Containment works, not because we defeat the enemy outright but thwart his plans.
All this is known to everyone who ever read Sun Tzu:
There were other options to the wars we've fought.
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| parent )but from where I stand you've gone from smacking the Japanese down in what I assumed was a 1 time military strike to a full on cold war. It could be that I misunderstood what you were getting at all along and if so I apologize for the harassment, but no matter, I'm skeptical of our success against the imperial Japanese in such a standoff as well. Apart from Americans not having enough stomach for protracted foreign interventions in the 30s to begin with, or the effects of the depression on the political leaders trying to justify such things, in my opinion America has never ever faced a more fanatical opponent than the Japanese. Even if we would have gone in full bore against them I'm not sure we ever would have come out on top barring the total destruction of their country. I certainly don't see them folding as easily as the Soviets did.
--"I can no more disown him [Reverend Jeremiah Wright] than I can disown the black community"- Senator Barack Obama, March 18, 2008
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| parent )and it really is becoming tiresome! I wasn't privy to the OPLANs and order of battle for the US Navy of 1931-32. This I do know, the Stimson Doctrine was an Empty Threat. Words without deeds to match them led to a cataclysmic war in the Pacific and the deaths of millions.
You're not sure about this. You're not sure about that. Well, Sulla, that's how America's gotten into every goddamn war it's fought, from the Whiskey Rebellion to the War in Iraq. With the single exception of the Cold War, which got pretty hot here and there and everywhere, we've waited until far too late to make a decision.
Even during the Cold War, we didn't have the guts to stand up for what we believed about democracy and free speech. We backed every tin horn dictator who took our money and wouldn't call himself a Communist. We let this idiots lead us around by the nose, every time the peasants were demanding some land reform and freedom of the press, or free elections, these bemedaled bozos would go running down to the American Embassy and breathlessly tell the CIA about some Horrible Commie Insurgency. And of course, when we did start in on some catastrophic intervention against these so-called Commies, Moscow would back them, just to spite us.
The Japanese were one thing: when they were defeated, they stayed defeated. We treated them with respect, imposed an American Caesar on them and struck exactly the right note of both strength and wisdom. The Japanese loved MacArthur, and may I add, MacArthur got rid of another class of tyranny in Japan, the feudal landholders and handed out new land deeds to the farmers and townspeople. Germany was a slightly different story, what with the Russians in the picture, but the Americans saw the wisdom of fighting the Cold War by rebuilding Germany, pulling our enemy up onto his feet again. That's the American way of doing things, as Wilson tried to do at Versailles.
Now consider the utterly corrupt regimes we backed in the Cold War. Look at our legacy in Africa and Central America and Asia. I'm not terribly proud of it, and I'm especially disgusted with our involvement in both Iraq and Afghanistan. We propped up Iraq while they were fighting Iran. We stupidly let Pakistan back the Taliban in Afghanistan. We would return to destroy both.
Only now we're too stupid to capitalize on what we knew had always worked for us before. Where we failed, we didn't have the guts to stand up for our own principles, always fretting about imposing our own values on subject peoples. Our own values used to say, "stand up for yourselves and have some elections and print some newspapers and start educating your children." I'm not sure we believe that's even true for ourselves any more.
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| parent )is where you're going with this whole thing. Hope it doesn't lead to a war, or whatever.
If words without deeds can end up causing wars which cost the lives of millions, which is it better to do without- the words or the deeds? Because in relation to the situation we find ourselves in today, would it have been better not have bothered with resolution after resolution from the UN Security Council after the 1991 Gulf War, or the effort to enforce them? I'm all for learning lessons from history, all I ask is that the lesson be consistent and that's the problem I have with your criticisms because I fail to see the thread which ties them all together. We are supposed to act in this case, but not in that case, and whenever we act we acted stupidly. This is not to say American foreign policy is above criticism, far from it. I'm just used to the criticisms having a common theme.
--"I can no more disown him [Reverend Jeremiah Wright] than I can disown the black community"- Senator Barack Obama, March 18, 2008
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| parent )Yes, words without deeds become Empty Threats. Better no threat than an empty threat. So I'd sacrifice words in this situation, that's a no-brainer.
Threats do have their place, and there ought to be consequences for broken promises. The UN won't back its words with deeds, either, which is why none of these dictators take them seriously.
Our situation today? Seems like you're referring to Yesterday when you talk about UN resolutions. Bush the Wiser went to the UN for mandate to drive Iraq out of Kuwait. Everyone used to badger Bush and Baker about leaving Saddam in place. Nobody asks them those questions now.
The UN did a surprisingly good job in the Balkans. We like to pat ourselves on the back for how all that went down, Wes Clark's air war and such, but the war turned against Serbia when the Muslims and Croats united against Milosevic. In the Balkans, we didn't put a boot on the ground for a year thereafter.
Consistency in foreign policy is the hobgoblin of the idealistic mind. Every situation is different: there is no one size fits all policy for every situation, save only the old maxim of This too shall pass. Our system of government puts a different president in power on a predictable schedule, every four or eight years. Our enemies have no such limits: they remain in power and their children after them.
There is only one uniting thread to this save only the notion that America ignores problems until it's too late. In light of this fact, we ought to act in our own interests, which do not vary much over time.
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| parent )the ones who criticize things like foreign policy because it offers them an opportunity to pitch whatever it is they are selling. Typically they contrast good ideas (theirs) from bad ones (their ideological opponents). But even without an ideology there still needs to be constants within any argument that does not take an episode of history for what it was and leave it at that in order to judge the validity of the argument. Otherwise we are just swapping opinions.
--"I can no more disown him [Reverend Jeremiah Wright] than I can disown the black community"- Senator Barack Obama, March 18, 2008
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| parent )America must act in its own enlightened self-interest.
To safety or ruin. Not to victory. The whole point of Sun Tzu is to diminish the significance of any one victory. Protracted war is certain defeat.
There are no constants. There never were. Facts are slippery things, and they require interpretation. From interpretation arises judgment, hence opinion. War may be necessary, and to America's credit, we've tried to avoid war where we could, but naive ideology has proven the road to ruin. Ideology belongs on a soapbox not the negotiating table.
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| parent )to be little more civil, BP. Part of the fun of studying history is to contemplate the what-ifs. Sulla has not only shown a willingness to go down that road with you but has done so with extreme politeness. Please extend him the same courtesy.
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )those were always liberal values. Conservative values tended more toward the firehoses and dogs (and poll taxes, &c, &c). That's a big part of why our foreign policy tended toward the sponsorship of the brutal; self-determination, democracy, and freedom weren't (and still aren't) viewed as American values, but rather liberal ones.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )Your reference to the Stimson Doctrine says you don't.
What type of aircraft did the Lexington Class have in 31?
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )n/t
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| parent )Agreed, but people need to get out of this country and into the world for more than a few days to truly see that. We can't even reliably get foreign news on cable here; it's not that people dislike it, it's more that no one knows it even exists. Or that the views of people outside the country can give a perspective you can never get if you just remain inside looking out.
--Rust never sleeps.
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| parent )You would have loved it, I think I know you well enough now to say so.
Americans are from everywhere else, I told them. When you feel far from home and lost in the alien-ness of this place, look around you. Everyone you will see came from somewhere else. Ask an American who he is, he'll tell you something like "oh, I'm Scots-Irish on my mother's side, Polish on my Dad's side, and there's some American Indian in there somewhere." It's the funniest thing. He's not going to say "I'm an American" So don't you worry about being strangers here, for being an American is just a state of mind.
Sure we have our problems, I said, who doesn't? We hang our problems out for all to see, look at this Iraq War, for instance. There's no one opinion on it, we're constantly arguing about it. We don't see the problems of other countries as you see them, but we're so huge we don't often leave our country, it's very difficult for Americans to comprehend these problems. Our TV news is crazy here, they treat it like entertainment. You'll learn nothing from our TV news, unless you go looking for it, carefully. The only exception is on Sunday morning, the talk shows go into depth on some issues.
Then, I said, if you really want to see good political fights, try www.theforvum.org. Heh heh.
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| parent )the better question would be to ask, is there any other place on earth you would rather live?
BTW, it is Scot-Irish and good portion of those folks would reply from the state in which they were born, especially if they have never moved.
And if you are a Scot and Irish, the reply might just be The Bronx.
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )are small states with high living standards usually
with wonderful welfare based high taxation systems.
Say Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland, etc
Ask an American where they'd rather live and they
probably couldn't point to these places on a map
far less pick them for good health cover, low
crime and great quality of life.
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| parent )