Bumper stickers and Bill Ayers


This diary began as a response to AndrewSshi's Unusual Bumper Sticker diary. It did not end there, and grew like topsy.

The McCain sticker on the Prius is an antidote to someone thinking the driver might be a Liberal. The driver might be secretly shopping at Whole Foods and surreptitiously eating arugula, too. Common sense and healthy food is mighty tasty, once it’s freed of its political associations. The bumper sticker keeps him from getting the finger from some redneck driving a ratty old pickup truck up from Galveston.

I left Houston a few months back, Bush home turf. Lots of McCain fans there, too. Let's face it: lots of people are just plain scared of Barack Obama. They phrase it carefully, saying "we just don't know this guy", but there's an aspect of palpable, sphincter-tightening fear to their view of Obama. Why is this so? I propose to answer it from my side of the fence, a child of Southern whites who went to Africa as missionaries but who were in their day the apotheosis of the Religious Right.

We now see Barack Obama tarred with the brush of guilt by association: apparently he knew Bill Ayers, a founding member of the Weathermen, a group violently opposed to the Vietnam War in 1969 and 1970. In those years, race riots were burning America to the ground and it was not just in the Segregated South. In little York Pennsylvania, white mobs assaulted and murdered blacks: when the blacks finally fought back in 1969, whole city blocks were torched. Barack Obama was then eight years old, halfway around the world, living in Indonesia, in the same time zone as Vietnam.

Long after Bill Ayers came out of the cold and was found innocent by reason of prosecutorial misconduct, he would meet up with Barack Obama, then a community activist on the board of a charity, dedicated to improving the education of children in Chicagoland. If guilt by association may be extended to all sins in all times to all we will ever meet, we are surely all guilty.

When Lyndon Johnson signed the Civil Right Act, he famously said, ''We have lost the South for a generation." In large measure, LBJ was right: Nixon would racially polarize the South and win his first term to the presidency. Bush the Elder held his nose and got into Texas politics with the segregationists.

But that’s only half the story: the Democrats lost the South because the white middle class wanted tax cuts and smaller government. When WW2 came to an end, a snapshot would have revealed around 40% of the South was in subsistence farming. The rural poor were LBJ’s constituency. But as the suburbs around Dallas and Houston and Atlanta grew, the dynamics changed. Farmland was paved over and became suburbia, expressways killed the little towns and the corner store died. A new constituency developed and it had no vision of rural poverty.

This new constituency was white, yes, but it wasn’t entirely white. Some blacks and Hispanics had done reasonably well. Bush the Elder represented a new expression of Republicanism, though this Connecticut Yankee was a most unlikely totem for this movement. LBJ’s Great Society was dead on arrival: it was twenty years too late. It would have worked, in the immediate aftermath of WW2, even after the Korean War, but by the middle 1960s the damage was done. A permanent underclass had developed. When it boiled over in rage and riots, the Republicans capitalized on the madness with a gospel of class based resentment against the anarchy of those days. White suburbia was given a battle standard and they went on punitive legislative raids on the Great Society, ensuring it would never truly enable anyone to rise from poverty.

Were these raids the actions of racists? I do not think so: Bigotry yes, racism no. Bigotry assumes many forms, and it is still with us. Black, Asian, Arab, Indian and Hispanic bigotry is no less pernicious: I have seen it in many quarters as the higher classes isolate themselves from the filth on the streets. In Central America, the rich routinely send their children to private schools in El Norte, los estados unidos. Miami is especially rife with this messy recapitulation of ancient hatreds. Even Africans indulge in it over here. It is the natural urge of mankind to burn the ladders upon which he climbed to success, lest he be forced to share the narrow ledge with others.

McCain and his people grin slyly while the 527s attempt to link Obama to Ayers. McCain might seem to be above the fray, but nobody’s fooled. He’s fearful, and his people are fearful. There’s only so far they can go with this line about Obama the Unready, for McCain has plenty of experience, including many horrible associations with unsavory characters. If we want perfection in our politicians, we should raise them in hydroponic gardens, for all the rest of humanity grows in the dirt.

It's not that McCain people really like McCain, any more than some of us like Obama. We’ve all got a few reservations about these guys. But McCain is the same old Hamburger Helper their wives have been bringing home for years and years. Yeah, it's greasy and boring, it's not even comfort food. They know it's gonna give them the same heartburn they always get from all that grease, and they'll take more political Zantac. They'd enjoy arugula if they ever got it in their salad, but they'd really rather have the same old iceberg lettuce and Kraft French they've been eating since they were kids. Less guided by ideology than force of habit, the McCain fans are more disposed to Suffer, while Evils are Sufferable, than to right themselves, by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed.

The Republicans know they screwed up big time with GWB. They know Bush put the country further in debt, put the neighbors' kids in coffins, they went to the funerals. They bought that Prius, not because they're big Liberals, but because they can't afford the drive from the exurbs to Houston in the old Land Yacht.

The Republicans instinctively understand Obama will bring a day of reckoning. But they know all that Hamburger Helper with all that cheap watery hamburger meat is clogging their arteries and stirring the polyps in their colons toward malignancy. McCain delays the day of reckoning a while longer. McCain relieves them of the sensation of misery and guilt, like the Zantac they pop. McCain will fix what Bush screwed up. He's got Experience. They believe the fundamentals of Bush’s policy were good, it was just badly implemented. I wrestle with the next part of these Trotsky essays I’m writing, it’s slaying me. How could people who had suffered so terribly under the Tsar’s oppression turn so willingly to new oppressors? The wisest among them chose tyranny.

Will McCain be a tyrant? Not by choice. He’s as afraid of the future as his followers. Are they racists? They’ll loudly deny it, and in truth they’re not. But they are guided by old paradigms, and fear long-dead, irrelevant enemies. It’s not so much that they fear change, but they fear consequences and old habits die hard.

If Obama may be forever tarred by association with Bill Ayers, might we not also tar every modern Southern Republican with the truth they all owe a debt to the racist Dixiecrats who became the core of what now passes for Conservatism? Oh, Blaise, you will scoff, two wrongs do not make a right. That’s tu-quoque, Obama’s association with disreputable people goes to his character. We Republicans are no longer the Strom Thurmond Dixiecrats, we are the party of Clarence Thomas and Condi Rice. And it would be true to point out these changes.

But from whence arise these ancient slurs? You will kindly shut your pieholes, Republicans. You have much to answer for, historically and much to answer for in these times. You have trodden down the poor and lowly: your focus was ever more opportunity for your own. As our country evolved away from racism, honestly repenting for the sins of their fathers, the sons have entered into a far subtler bigotry of class and creed. You have huddled in your churches and your country clubs, insulating yourselves from the consequences of your inattention. Like the Priest and the Levite, you have passed by the man in the road, as if the Good Samaritan’s charity was a substitute for policy. It is monstrous hubris, your talk of Family Values. Much concerned for the rights of the fetus, you cram those undereducated and unwanted children first into crumbling schools then in due time into prisons full to bursting. You will kindly leave Bill Ayers out of this quarrel: his mission is to those very children. In the name of No Child Left Behind, you have taken Teddy Kennedy’s original bill, torn out the passages on funding, torn off its covers and let George Bush write his name in crayon on the flyleaf as if he was its author. This was your Education Policy: borrowed wholesale from the Democrats and gutted it like a steer hanging from a hook, enriching your own in the process. Stand aside: you have had your turn, not once but for two terms and you have failed to heal this nation. Government is not the enemy as Reagan said, nor is its power to be extended beyond every legal boundary as that scofflaw Bush43 has done. Government is what we are together.

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Oy (#113268)
by Bird Dog

One aside. Obama didn't "apparently" know Ayers, it is an indisputable fact that Obama not only knew Ayers since as early as 1987, but worked with Ayers in various capacities, spanning years. It is an undisputed fact that this unrepentant domestic terrorist helped launch Obama's political career when Ayers opened his home to a campaign event. Longtime associations with terrorists and political extremists is a legitimate issue worthy of investigation for a man who could be Leader of the Free World, just as any of McCain's associations are.

Second, and more importantly, when you make the demand to "shut your pieholes, Republicans," you are insulting me, Mac and the other Republicans on this site, first by telling us to shut up and second by using "piehole" and third by your use of invidious overgeneralizations. I will not shut up, and nothing you say will make me. I was going to comment on other aspects of a both thoughtful and thoughtless post, Blaise, but you ruined it. Your final paragraph is just one pathetic spoon-banging temper tantrum. Too bad, really.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

life immitates art (#113297)
by Username

Gotta second (or third) blaise here (#113280)
by dionysus

Obama getting involved in trying to improve education in his neighborhood = Obama consorts with terrorists!! Cause one guy who was also trying to improve education had done some sketchy stuff in the past!

Hey, McCain probably worked with Mark Foley a lot more than Obama did, McCain consorts with child molesters!

McCain might have once shaken hands with a Shiite warlord! (#113302)
by BlaiseP

Or Wide Stance Larry. Or heavens, he might have taken donations from Assorted Nasty Persons!

It's all nonsense, vicious nonsense. John McCain is a good man, who deserves a break. If we aren't going to cut these people some slack, we will be in absolutely terrible shape.

There's a problem developing in bighorn sheep. Hunters preferentially shoot bighorns with big horns... yep. So the bighorn sheep have selectively evolved smaller horns. Is this what we really want in our politicians? Some cautious creature unwilling to mix it up with the world as it is?

I for one would rather have a John McCain in high office, flawed as he is, than some Holy Roller like Mittens Romney who makes up stories out of whole cloth about watching his Dad marching with Dr. King. Nobody's ever going to find a skeleton in Mittens' closet, because there's a difference between virginity and chastity. Mittens' whole life has been one long act of avoidance, including Vietnam, which he avoided by a long stint in France as a Mormon missionary. once a Brady Bill Lib when it was fashionable, now he's a Conservative lying about having guns, when it's his son who has the rifle. That's the problem with the Overly Righteous, they're always makin' stuff up to make themselves look real.

I'd rather have a McCain, who makes mistakes, owns up to them, and gets on with his life. He's deeply flawed, but he's also the genuine article.

Not an Age Joke. Honest. (#113300)
by Model 62

Hey, McCain probably worked with Mark Foley a lot more than Obama did, McCain consorts with child molesters!

Hell, McCain has a long history -- much, much longer than Obama's -- of consorting with all manner of liars, cheats, and criminals. He's been a United States Senator since 1986.

McCain killed a guy once (#113304)
by HankP

haven't you heard the story about McCain and McAbel?

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I blame it all on the Internet

OK (#113320)
by Macallan

That was pretty funny.

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“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

So let's get this straight: (#113274)
by BlaiseP

t is an indisputable fact that Obama not only knew Ayers since as early as 1987, but worked with Ayers in various capacities,

Are you accusing Obama of participating or approving of terrorist activities? Just tell me what these Indisputable Facts are, BD. They served on the board of directors for an education foundation. Were they running some sort of Liberal Madrassa, teaching those poor kids on the South Side to make bombs or something? I'm really interested in these Undisputed Facts,. BD. Enumerate them all, that we may make up our own minds.

As for insulting anyone, your nasty Bill Ayers / Barack Obama smear really does require some elucidation. You won't mind if I take you by the collar and drag you into some admission Bill Ayers was declared innocent of these charges, and Barack Obama was never a bomb-throwing radical. The sooner you can come up with some factual connection between Barack Obama and the Weathermen, the happier we will both be.

And do spare me any further aspersions about spoon banging and invidious over-generalizations. Smearing Barack Obama is beneath you.

It isn't a smear to say that Obama knew... (#113291)
by Bird Dog

...and worked with an unrepentant domestic terrorist. It's a plain fact. I only have two questions for Obama: Why did he choose to have a years-long political, personal and working relationship with such a piece of scum, and what do they have in common politically? Fair questions both.

Oh, and Ayers wasn't "declared innocent" at trial. It was a mistrial.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Well... (#113332)
by stillnotking

Ayers wasn't "declared innocent" at trial. It was a mistrial.

That means he's innocent under the law. If he couldn't be prosecuted because the feds overstepped their bounds, they have only themselves to blame.

On the political issue -- we're all adults here, BD, regardless of which horse we're backing in this race. We all know that Obama is no bomb-throwing radical, and that his professional association with Bill Ayers is not a legitimate reason for an informed person to vote against him. There's no real point in recapitulating smears designed for consumption by the Fox News crowd.

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The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

It's still a smear... (#113296)
by athenas owl

On a much smaller scale..I work on a school committee with a person with a felony conviction. Should I quit the committee or stand up in a meeting and point my finger at them, Invasion of the Body Snatchers style and demand they be thrown off the committee because of their past?

Or should I be grateful that someone is interested enough in the children of my small town to give their time? Something very few parents are willing to do.

If I ever ran for the school board, would my "association" with the felon be counted against me? That would be a smear. Childish and wrong.

Depends on the crime (#113308)
by Bird Dog

For a piece of scum like Ayers, I'd hope your committee would walk out en masse.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Heh! #113308 made me laugh! Thanks! (#113488)
by Bill White

Ronald Reagan is also said to have traded arms for hostages.

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Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

How ... Christian of you nt (#113312)
by HankP

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I blame it all on the Internet

Nothing says "American Christian" more than (#113313)
by Pranky

self-righteous indignation. Oh, and outrage.

Don't forget the hatred (#113489)
by Bill White

I saw this on a bumpersticker once:

Jesus loves you and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton

A little obsolete, today. ;-)

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Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Ah...redemption! (#113309)
by athenas owl

That's the great thing about America...you can make up for past mistakes..and do good.

So no...I wouldn't.

It's not about facts (#113301)
by HankP

it's not about being reasonable, it's not about the logical merits of the argument. It's all about emotional arguments, outrage, and the ability to engage in righteous indignation. It's been the Republican script for years, the facts don't matter but they get to repeat unrepentant domestic terrorist over and over again. These guys don't view Animal Farm as an allegory but as a training manual.

It's like the wingnut talking points making the rounds today, about the "Greek portico" at Invesco field where Obama is speaking tonight. It doesn't matter that George Bush had a remarkably similar set for his speech in 2004, just refuting the charge keeps it in the spotlight. I'm sure we'll be hearing Nuremberg references tomorrow.

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I blame it all on the Internet

Oh I know... (#113303)
by athenas owl

Ask most of these people, not here, of course what COINTELPRO was and why it impacted the case against Ayers and the words "prosecutorial misconduct "...

Ah the Greek Portico thing. How tragic is it that Americans would think Greek God, when it is as obvious as any picture of the neo-classical architecture of the very Ameican buildings in Washington (not to mention Wall Street and a gajillion other edifices in this country) that..oh never mind. It really is embarrassing sometimes. The cynicism of the McCain camp or the lack of knowledge of anyone that buys that....it really makes me sad. Not to mention GOP/2004 convention.

This from (#113310)
by Pranky

the folks who brought you the Mission Accomplished banner on a ship ordered to turn around so as to avoid the coastline in the camera angles (all of which was later blamed on the Navy).

And the flight suit. And purple heart band-aids. And covering the naked lady statues.

Don't forget the torture nt (#113321)
by HankP

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I blame it all on the Internet

Bill Ayers the education and social justice professor (#113295)
by BlaiseP

at University of Chicago, friend of the mayor of Chicago, whose father Hizzoner Da Mayor beat the living hell out of the Vietnam War protesters? That guy? No, you tell me what Obama and Bill Ayers have in common. Don't you hide behind rhetorical questions, come right out and answer your own questions, BD.

Cook County politics is rough stuff. Bill Ayers is a player. You want to critique Bill Ayers? One difference between McCain and Keating versus Obama and Ayers. Keating went to jail.

What's indisputed is Bill Ayers as an education advocate. (#113270)
by BlaiseP

Now unless he's been recently been setting off bombs, we might ask if McCain's been making propaganda tapes for the North Vietnamese, calling himself a war criminal, or cheating on his wife, or taking Charles Keating's money.

It's guilt by association, BD. Want me to overlook the Dixiecrats and the crypto-racism of a generation of Republicans. You can get the hell over Bill Ayers.

Bill Ayers, Great American, or, Bill Ayers Greatest American? (#113311)
by Traveller

...I just don't get it. American was in the process of killing, murdering, burning to death or shredding the living flesh of about 2M Vietnamese....

Bill was unhappy with what his country was doing and in fact blew up the Haymarket memorial a couple of times....cool.

People forget what a murdering country the US was then...(Not that there's anything wrong with that), and Mr. Ayers was willing to put his body and freedom on the line to stop this.

To all known accounts he killed no one.

America has changed, (to a more sophisticated form of mind and thought control), but at that time....Bill was doing what he could.

Now he's a an education expert and professor....still trying to make America a better place.

Greatest American.

I've answered my own question.

Traveller

You made a factually statement, Blaise (#113281)
by Bird Dog

Instead of responding to me, you should be hitting the "edit" button.

If you want to write a post attacking McCain for his past associations, I won't be the one telling you to shut your piehole.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Just for the record Bird Dog (#113290)
by dionysus

Is your opinion on the matter that Obama would be a better man, of better character, if he had said "someone in this group to improve education did bad stuff a long time ago! I'm quitting the group."

No (#113307)
by HankP

because then he'd be anti-education and anti-Christian for not being willing to forgive the past for a good cause.

If you don't have to make logical sense you can throw crap like this out all day long.

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I blame it all on the Internet

Have I not written the exact opposite, on many occasions? (#113285)
by BlaiseP

Is your memory that short, that you cannot remember what I have written? I have said McCain is a fundamentally decent man, and his past associations, while troubling, should have no bearing on the issues before us.

Now who's been dragging Bill Ayers into this debate?

Your opinions of McCain... (#113305)
by Bird Dog

...are decidedly mixed, Blaise. One moment you said he's a decent guy, the next you said that he aided and abetted the North Vietnamese. I honestly have no idea what your next opinion will be of the man. I also honestly don't care what you write about the guy, as long as got game to back it up. Meantime, your factually false statement is out there.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Please do me the favor of tweezing out the falsehood (#113314)
by BlaiseP

and put it on the specimen tray, so I can either retract it or explain it.

Bill Ayers decided the government of those days was evil. He acted. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

We had neither Safety nor Happiness.

There are several ways to change the world: fight back according to the rules, or fight fire with fire. COINTELPRO was illegal and violent, it was met with violence. Two wrongs don't make a right, but the people have the right to abolish a destructive form of government. The government got the point, too, after a few bombs went off. After the race riots of the late 60s, the whole country got the point: either we fix the problem or the oppressed will burn down our neighborhoods.

I enlisted, because I knew the Communists were a threat. I also grew to understand my own government was a threat. I left the country, went off to work with refugees. I burned out, went back into the military because I couldn't deal with the civilian world of the late 70s. I'm glad I did go back in. I say what I do about John McCain because it needs saying, both the good and bad about him.

When John McCain was trying to change the world for the better, I admired him. He's abandoned many of the principles which once defined him, so I don't admire him these days. Now McCain is pandering to the powers that be, and it's more than tragic, it's now a farce. Still, as the Greeks said, count no man happy until he is dead. There's more to McCain than his past: there's his present and his potential future. Once his bravery meant something, I do not see it any more. I see a man kowtowing to his Conservative Base.

Two points (#113342)
by Bird Dog

First, there is no "apparently". Obama himself acknowledged that he knew Ayers. Second, saying that Obama simply "knew" Ayers is misleading because you're minimizing the relationship. Obama worked with Ayers over the span of years, and Ayers worked with Obama on Obama's first political campaign. It is (or was) a personal, political and working relationship.

I'm not going to divine Ayers' motivations as you're trying to do. He is a left-wing political extremist who became a leader in a group that sought the violent overthrow of the United States government. His group's mission was the "destruction of U.S. imperialism and the achievement of a classless world: world communism." His group acted out on that mission with numerous bombings and other violent acts. To this day, he has expressed no regrets, and in 2001 said he wished he'd done more. He is no different than an Eric Rudolph except that Ayers got away with it.

What truly puzzles me is that no one on your side has said in this thread that perhaps it was a mistake for Obama to entangle himself with this guy.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Do you really think (#113350)
by HankP

Obama even knew who the guy was when he was appointed to the board of the non-profit educational institution they both served on?

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I blame it all on the Internet

OK a couple of things (#113348)
by Elagabalus

Since I'm too lazy to look it up could you describe their "working relationship". Like, was Bill Ayers already on the committee to clean up the Chicago inner city and Obama had to call him up a few times... or Obama had to get Ayer's OK before he implemented his own plan... or something? Cuz' Better the devil you know, right?!

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I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine

Because it wasn't...a mistake (#113343)
by athenas owl

Ayers was involved in the civic life of Chicago...so was Obama.

I do not why that is so hard to comprehend.

Two problems with your position (#113339)
by tomsyl

You attribute the best and most noble of motivations to Ayers. I remember the Weathermen; they were violent criminals, nothing more. Despite all the glorious talk about "power to the people!!", they were quite willing to risk the lives of ordinary citizens, whether they were armored car guards, tourists at the Capitol Building, or Greenwich Village neighbors to the townhouse where they made their inept bomb assembly attempt.

The bombs that blew up those MFs in Greenwich Village were intended to be detonated at an Army NCO club dance and the campus library at Columbia. The bomb that was made by Ayers' a-hole buddy, Bernadine Dohrn, was pipe filled with gunpowder, metal staples and bullets; it killed a police seargeant who was sitting at his desk in the SFPD offices, and another cop in the room had his face torn off by the shrapnel. "Power to the people", right?

Any argument that Ayers and his fellow murderers were somehow acting within the principles on which the country was founded is a specious apology for their crimes IMO.

It is implicit in your apparent interpretation of the italicized language in your post that if I shot William Ayers on sight back in the late sixties, I would be within my rights and doing my duty as a citizen opposed to violent overthrow of my government. Do you agree? Remember, as Naomi Jaffe put it, doing nothing is itself a form of violence.

Second, the COINTELPRO wasn't run out of the Capital Building, SFPD, Columbia University, or the Pentagon. It was run by Hoover(Probably with CIA help), so if this really was a revolt against COINTELPRO, the Weathermen would have targeted FBI headquarters and maybe Langley. (Could it be that those were hard targets, where a frustrated and petulant fauz revolutionary could get her hair parted by a guard's bullet? Instead they bombed places like the the Capitol, which typically would be filled with security guards, visitors, career bureaucrats, and other ordinary schmoes. Or snuck bombs onto ledges outside SFPD.) COINTELPRO was largely Hoover's baby; he was able to shepherd it through JFK's administration and RFK's justice department because he kept his position by blackmailing the Kennedies. Is there any record of an attempt on Hoover's life by your putative revolutionaries?

I lived through the SDS/Weathermen/Black Panther/SLA days just as you did, and I categorically reject your statement that "the government got the point . . . after a few bombs went off." The Weathermen lost their cause, their inertia and their nerve when Vietnam ended. There is no evidence that their bombs had the slightest to do with ending that war, with civil rights or with anything else constructive.

If I believed in God's direct intervention in man's affairs, I would believe that He jiggled that bomb detonator just enough to rid the sole of the world's shoe from three pieces of particularly malodorous dog feces. I hope their deaths were lingering and extremely painful, and that at least one of them had her face torn off by shrapnel.

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In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

The problem resolves to motives, doesn't it? (#113346)
by BlaiseP

Ends justifying means leads many a noble cause awry. No question about it. I don't approve of the Weathermen, I was convinced of the opposite opinion right up to the moment I saw what we were backing in SE Asia. Even then, I thought to myself, oh well, what do I know about the larger picture. The Communists are worse. And I went on believing it for many years, through all the lies and all the self-deception and all the bombs. Watching a B52 dropping a full payload on the jungle is a life-changing experience. There's so much ordnance in the ground they're actually mining certain areas of Vietnam and Cambodia for steel. They're probably doing the same in Laos.

You wish to make a qualitative difference between one bomb and another, well, so be it. That's your call. I long since abandoned any such beliefs. A bomb is a bomb. You drop it, hoping to hit the guilty but you hit the innocent. Xin loi, xin loi, he shouldn't have been there. Collateral damage. And we still here the chorus of Xin Loi from all the post-hoc apologists who are Very Sorry about Abu Ghraib and the mess we've made in Iraq, but who sat around and pooh-poohed the assertions when they were first made.

Look, I'm not putting you in the trick bag, I'm not trying to put any words in your mouth or impute motive or even defend Ayers. I'm deeply frustrated as I research this Trotsky thing, which refuses to get into any presentable form. The Tsar wouldn't go away quietly, and violence from the anarchists was met with violence from the Tsar's Okhrana, to the point where you couldn't tell them apart about half the time, and the same was true in SE Asia. Bill Ayers isn't sorry about setting those bombs, well I'm not sorry for what I did, either. It happened a long time ago. I went off and did refugee work as a sort of penance, not that it made any difference, I can't un-ring the bell.

Well, Bill Ayers can't un-ring the bell either. He did what his conscience told him to do, I followed mine too, in the opposite direction. Ends didn't justify the means for me, and nobody emerged unscathed from those terrible days of 1969. There's no justifying any of it. But in that spirit, I don't think there's any condemnation of it in this day and age. Bill Ayers was found innocent, and nobody's ever going to prosecute me for war crimes. Close the book on this story, say I, or risk leaving it open. You will have plenty of injustice to defend if you wish to continue along this line of Faux Umbrage about Bill Ayers.

My comment had nothing to do with you personally (#113359)
by tomsyl

and it would be the height of arrogance for me to say you should be sorry for anything you ever did.

However, w/r/t Bill Ayers and his motley crew of sad-a$$ed murderers and bank robbers, I do sit in judgment as a member of the society they were trying to destroy. Ayers was never "found innocent"; the evidence needed to prosecute him was thrown out by a judge because it had been illegally collected. That is a huge difference. After the evidence against him was suppressed, Ayers crowed that he was "Guilty as hell, free as a bird—America is a great country." To me that sentence perfectly encapsulates what sorry a$$holes Ayer and his mangy tribe of subhumans were. "I'm so lucky to be protected by the laws of the great country I was trying to destroy. And b/t/w, kill your parents."

Any supposed revolutionary with a room-temperature IQ knows that he or she will be tried just like any other common criminal if their revolution fails. "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time" applies when you kill people and rob banks, regardless of motive. Exhibit A: In just two years the Black Panthers killed nine cops and wounded more than fifty others. Most of those scum are now rotting in jail doing life without parole.

I know someone who was a major character in the Berkeley kidnapping of Patty Hearst (he received a fractured skull courtesy if the idiotically named "Cinque"), and was an eyewitness when LAPD burned them out of their house on 54th Street in LA. My friend confirmed that the LAPD trapped "Cinque," "Fahizah", "General Gelina," "Mizmoon" and "Cujo" in that house, set it aflame, shot anyone who tried to surrender, and let the rest of them asphyxiate in the fire. I lived in LA for five years, long enough to form a very low opinion of LAPD generally, but I feel that was a just and satisfactory ending to the SLA.

I've never said or suggested that Obama's friendship with Ayers means Obama embraces Ayers' political philosophies; I am sure it does not. If there are any issues there at all, they involve the degree to which you can tell a man (here, a cipher) by his friends, and whether Obama shaded the truth in minimizing their relationship, much like he tried to do in the Rev. Wright matter. Those issues don't particularly interest me, but I don't see them as forbidden areas that others can't explore.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

There is Something Atavistic & Fun Watching People Burn To Death (#113366)
by Traveller

...so there's no sorrow for the SLA.

However, if the LAPD set the house ablaze on purpose as you suggest, then that was a crime and murder by cops.

There's a special pit in hell for killer cops.

Which, if one were to think about it, was what Black Power and the entire Civil Rights movement was about...the reformation of Police Departments and their policies.

Which, thank God, did happen.

Which is still not to say that....officer involved killings are again on the rise....and while this may be Batman-ish fun...it is still against the law, it is evil, it is wrong.

There is a balance here, but back to the subject at hand...Rev. Wright is recent, I understand this objection, Mr. Ayers is upwards of 40 years ago.

None of us are the same people we were then...nor is America the same.

Traveller

I didn't say it was legal. (#113371)
by tomsyl

Nor does it have anything to do with the LAPD's own long record of atrocities against citizens of that city. Like I said, I lived there long enough to develop a healthy awareness - you could call it fear - of what some of those in that uniform are capable of at any given moment, even in a routine traffic stop, or if you just looked t them sideways while walking down the street.

The "live by the sword, die by the sword" end of the SLA satisfies me as an ultimate outcome, and a tidy bookend to the lives those kooks chose to live. That's really all I am saying.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

"I hope their deaths were lingering and extremely painful" (#113344)
by Username

Paging Macallan et al. Tony Snow is spinning in his grave.

You left out the part about one of them getting her face blown (#113360)
by tomsyl

off. JFTR.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

the point here is that Macallan and others (#113363)
by Username

were complaining when I hoped that monsters like Tony Snow suffered on their way out.

If you want to try to equate the two, go right ahead. (#113369)
by tomsyl

I am not talking about people that just died, nor is this an epitaph thread for them. So see no parallel with your comments in the Tony Snow thread.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

you're right, Tony Snow was worse (#113370)
by Username

That's off the deep end and has nothing to do with what I said. (#113372)
by tomsyl

If your Tony Snow funeral snark is still bothering or embarrassing you, why don't you just forget it instead of bringing it up? I certainly had forgotten it.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

bordering on ad-hom, tomsyl. (#113399)
by Username

Anyway, your comment doesn't make much sense since I stand by what I said before. My comment in this thread was directed at those who sometimes are quick to the fainting couches.

Your comment was addressed to me. (#113403)
by tomsyl

There it is right above my reply.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

"You will kindly shut your pieholes, Republicans" (#113194)
by Macallan

[yawn]

Was the dKos server down, or have you been banned from MyDD?

Take a Xanax and spare us, the whole handful left, this kind of bile.

--

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

Yawn away, Mac. When facts fail, you always resort to ad hom. (#113196)
by BlaiseP

But that's as predictable as tomorrow's sunrise. Bill Ayers is the current stock in trade for the 527s like American Issues Project.

Feel free to ignore me, Mac. I'm in no mood for your guff, fella.

This whole diary is ad hom... (#113200)
by Macallan

…, projection, and imaginings all in a pretty wrapper.

What makes you think I'm in the mood for your spleen venting?

How does this move the ball forward?

Don't be such a hypocrite, we all know that if anyone did a similar diary and said, "Shut your piehole, democrats" you'd blow a gasket and then throw a couple of valves. It's nonsense, and there's no excuse for it.

--

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

Lighten up, Mac... (#113249)
by JKC

It's a diary, not a manifesto, and it's not the Democratic Party platform. I kind of like it when Blaise gets going: he almost sounds like an Old Testament prophet teeing off on the Comfortable Class in ancient Israel.

As for the meat of the diary, let's face it: the GOP spent the last eight years in power. What did we get for it? There were some nice tax cuts for those of us lucky enough to be in a top income bracket. We also got kleptocracy in the form of blanket deregulation that still threatens to take down the entire US banking system. Enron was just a warm-up for the disaster slowly unfolding in front of us.

We also went from budget surpluses to budget deficits. Those tax breaks may have been great for us, but our kids and grandkids will be paying off the bill for years to come.

I won't even start on the miserable idiocy of invading Iraq, and botching the war in Afghanistan. Even Bird Dog, noble, worthy and tireless defender of the Bush Administration, will admit that Afghanistan is now a true clusterf*ck. (No slam on BD intended: his politics may make me wince, but he's a smart and principled adversary. If the GOP were smart, they'd offer him a job.)

And what did the GOP do to reign in the worst instincts of Bush the Lesser? Not one bloody thing. If George W. Bush had asked for a busload of college cheerleaders to be delivered to the White House basement, the GOP congress would have delivered them, all the while blaming Democrats for the declining Moral Climate of the country.

Blaise (and now I) may be venting our spleens. I'll plead guilty, if that makes you feel better. But remember this: if the GOP does indeed have to endure exile in the political wilderness, they will have brought it on themselves. I respectfully submit that shooting the messenger does not make that less true.

Don't be a sorehead, Mac. Ancient slurs being what they are (#113210)
by BlaiseP

Maybe you should indulge in fewer of them. Unless, of course, you approve of that sort of thing when it comes from the 527s. Once again, you pick one goddamn sentence out of context so you can gibber and froth in your usual Predictable Outrage.

Yeah right (#113211)
by Macallan

Other than that one sentence, it's all first rate stuff...

Whatever.

Why you let good writing get spoiled by anger, and at times benighted aspersions at large chunks of the electorate, are simply beyond me. I just don't get it.

--

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

Why you never respond to facts but attack me personally (#113215)
by BlaiseP

is equally beyond me. The day you put up a response to what I write without snark and assbiting, there will be two moons in the sky. A bit late for faint praise: I wrote the topic sentence about Ancient Slurs, and all that followed in that paragraph pertained to that topic. A bit more reading for comprehension on your part would be appreciated.

Might I suggest (#113269)
by Spartacvs

respectfully, that you might do better to omit or rephrase certain declarative statements which add little to the piece but allow folks like Mac a hook with which to exploit and trash your otherwise excellent writing without having to address the merits?

Save some powder for the expected snark and assbiting counterattacks, rather than covering the battlefield in smoke from the git go.

--

GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

This Bill Ayers smear is a big fat nothing. (#113279)
by BlaiseP

When the mayor of Chicago says Bill Ayers is a good guy, you can bet your life every Cook County politician will say the same. I will tell these Republicans to shut their lying pieholes when they attempt to tar Barack Obama as a terrorist-lovin' Liberal of the 1960s.

If they're gonna play that game, let's set the wayback machine to 1969 and examine the Republican Party and its policies. Now I'd prefer to let bygones be bygones and let Bill Ayers do what he can in the realm of education, without having these assbiters drag up the distant past. I've written plenty about how John McCain repented of his past associations with crooks, turned around and authored good legislation with Russ Feingold to eliminate many of these abuses. John McCain made a mistake, and he redeemed himself. So did Bill Ayers. Now unless we get to that point where a man can be redeemed, where he can atone for his sin, where he can go on to live a better life, what is the effing point of calling someone else a sinner? Does our every sin and shortcoming condemn us completely and for all time? Who among us is without sin?

So you'll excuse me for noting I didn't throw the first stone on this Bill Ayers thing over here. But when I throw rocks, I hit what I throw at, and the very people who dragged Bill Ayers into this Forvm are the only ones offended when I tell them to Shut their Pieholes about Ancient Slurs.

Now either the Bill Ayers crap stops, or I go on writing about the Republicans of the 1960s, for a good many of them were unabashed racists. Lynchings and murders and systematic abuses of power were still going on in those days. I'd prefer to make this debate about the issues of the day: we are faced with a choice between two imperfect men, and guilt by association is crazy talk.

The Bill Ayers crap won't stop (#113288)
by Pranky

You think the republicans are going to pass on an opportunity to shout 'TERRORIST'? The guy they're pointing to this time while shouting 'BOOGAH-BOOGAH' also happens to be black. You really think they're going to pass on a red-meat opportunity for their base like that?

Expect much, much more of the same. It's just about all they've got.

BlaiseP I love your writing. Always interesting and entertaining. It seems to me you're being baited here. Don't bite. And don't get yourself banned.

Do you admit at least that Ayers was a terrorist? (#113322)
by tomsyl

And apparently still is an unrepentant one w/r/t his past, admitted crimes? That seems to me the First Principle on which the Obama association argument is based, and on which I think no one can disagree.

I don't think, b/t/w, that Obama ever was sympathetic with any of Ayers' political causes or philosophies; if theirs awas a close relationship, it was pure elctioneering by Obama, not a case of Fellow Travellers. (sorry, T - not you, of course; I'm guessing you may have been involved in helping one of your love objects at the time %^>.)

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

But, But . . . (#113326)
by Inigo

That seems to me the First Principle on which the Obama association argument is based, and on which I think no one can disagree.

That's not really an argument. It's an observation about a guy Obama knows. What's the argument here? What is the conclusion to be drawn from the indisputable fact that Obama knew/knows a guy who used to be a terrorist?

--

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

I'm not making the argument, I'm responding to one. (#113365)
by tomsyl

Which is that Ayers is not a former terrorist. Anyone trying to cut off the Obama/Ayers discussion with that one is wrong.

Where the Obama/Ayers connection itself leads, if anywhere, doesn't particularly interest me, but apparently it does others.

When I capitalize something, it means I am indisputably right on that particular point, kinda like some papal bull, and that disagreement is banned. It's right there in the posting rules - er, Posting Rules.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

He's not saying it's an argument (#113330)
by hobbesist

He's claiming it's a 'First Principle' - which doesn't make much sense either, but maybe he's a big Fr. Neuhaus fan. I don't know.

Why are you even asking me?

What do you mean you weren't talking to me?

Hey - screw you too, bub.

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

Why are you even asking (#113333)
by Inigo

Why are you even asking me?

What do you mean you weren't talking to me?

Hey - screw you too, bub.

Okay. Got it. I'm out.

--

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

Inigo (#113335)
by Macallan

He was joking. Maybe you are too, but I just wanted make sure there isn't a misunderstanding.

--

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

I wouldn't worry, Mac. (#113336)
by hobbesist

No one round here takes much of anything I say seriously - which redounds to ya'lls eternal credit.

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

Why should I take your statement seriously? (#113367)
by tomsyl

You are wrong in your post, h: I take everything you say seriously, so you can't be serious when you say I don't. And that's "infernal", not "eternal"; I'm betting M will agree.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Okay . . . (#113362)
by Inigo

so I'm not terribly bright, and easily confused. I ain't really been around these parts for a while, and recollected hobbesist as one of the more congenial posters, so I wasn't quite sure . . . Never miiind . . .

--

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

My posting is *not* congenital, sir (#113467)
by hobbesist

... and I resent the implication.

--

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.

Ha (#113398)
by HankP

the simple humble country lawyer bit again. When doesn't it work? :)

--

I blame it all on the Internet

You Always (#113983)
by Inigo

smoke me out on that . . . :)

--

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

In this case (#113327)
by Pranky

the conclusion seems to be "BOOGAH-BOOGAH!"

That is false (#113264)
by Macallan

...and you know it. The problem is when you were caught stating falsehoods you didn't, or perhaps just couldn't, acknowledge it. When confronted by facts contrary to your assertions you're the one who quickly resorted to ad hom and shouts of 'siddown' and 'shut your piehole'.

--

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

What falsehoods, Mac? (#113271)
by BlaiseP

It's like you're some kind of Chatty Cathy doll, pull your string and out comes some personal attack. Chatty Chucky. Your business is to point out the facts, not call me a liar. It's becoming a pattern. Your bluster doesn't faze me, Mac.

Thanks for only proving the point. (#113275)
by Macallan

Instead of trading insults, let's switch gears here.

I'll start with a very simple question, and we'll see if we can make some progress from there.

If someone is at a party and becomes an hors d'oeuvre victim with some green gunk in their teeth. Is the true friend the one who says, "Hey, you've got something in your teeth there, you might want to take care of it" or is it all the other people who pretended not to notice?

--

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

None of that from you, Mac. Facts, not metaphor. (#113282)
by BlaiseP

You point out one link between Obama's association with an innocent man and your harum-scarum about Undisputed Fact.

Facts, please. You're the one making much hay with this Bill Ayers line, and your faux opprobrium. But let's just use your example, for sake of argument. If someone had some gunk in his teeth, I'd probably be right there alongside the guy as he looked in the mirror, making sure the Oysters Rockefeller hadn't left any gunk in my own teeth. Happy now?

Why do you claim that Ayers is an innocent man? (#113461)
by tomsyl

Charges weren't pursued on his indictment because the evidence against him was tainted. That doesn't make Ayers innocent of anything. After the charges were dropped, Ayers famously said that he was "guilty as hell, free as a bird - America is a great country!"

Here is a partial list of the bombings committed by the group Ayers founded and ran until he went on the lam with Dohrn in 1980:

-Haymarket in Chicago
-Chicago police cars (firebombs)
-NYC townhouse (OK, maybe he didn't intend that one - heh)
-National Guard HQ in NYC
-NYPD Headquarters
-Presidio in San Francisco
-US Capitol
-California Prisons Office in SF
-NYC Corrections offices
-MIT
-ITT offices
-HEW offices in SF
-Government offices in DC and Oakland
-a South American bank's offices in NYC
-Kennecott Copper (Salt Lake City)
-INS offcies in San Francisco.

I'm sure I left off some; Ayers can round out the list. Argue all you like about the Ayers/Obama connection, but claiming Ayers is "innocent" is ridiculous.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

the target was a statue (#113787)
by Micky Love

Which of these actions would you characterize as 'terrorist?'

The target of the haymarket bombing was a statue.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

What do you know about pipe bombs? (#113790)
by tomsyl

Or the killing of an SFPD officer and maiming of another by a WU bomb Ayers ordered planted?

Get up to speed here if you want to debate this issue. I'm not going to walk you back through the history of the WU; try wikipedia for a start.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

not civilians (#113805)
by Micky Love

A terrorist is someone who targets civilians. Nelson Mandela for example. Statues and police officers are not civilians.

Bank robbery is not terrorism either.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

Yeah, man! Off the pigs!" (#113828)
by tomsyl

Whatever. if you want to argue that WU wasn't a terrorist group - whatever.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

inaccurate (#113980)
by Micky Love

I'm not interested in arguing either. I simply wanted to know if the Weather Underground had targetted civilians in their bombing campaign. If they didn't, then characterizing them as terrorists is inaccurate.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

Well, you'd have to ask the court which threw out the charges. (#113483)
by BlaiseP

Look, you can stop channeling Michelle Malkin any time now, Hillary tried this baloney attack and it didn't fly back then. It won't fly now.

The one thing you haven't worked out is this: Bill Ayers isn't the issue. Barack Obama is the issue. Now, do you feel Obama cuddles up to terrorists and will do so in future? That's your call, not mine. Here's something you ought to fear, Tomsyl, a revolutionary who gets elected to office. Obama will go through this country like dose of dewormer going through a mangy old dog. When he's done, half this administration will face charges, and several may be extradited to the Hague for war crimes tribunals.

I'm getting to that part of the Trotsky essay where the Bolsheviks finally consolidate their power and Trotsky takes charge of the Red Army. It's a dismal passage, full of Stalin's pigheaded stupidity, Lenin's intellectual stupidity, incompetence at all levels, infighting and treachery. But it's Trotsky who pulls the whole thing together: without Trotsky the Revolution would have failed, and it would be Trotsky's railroads which would save Russia in WW2. Russia's entire manufacturing infrastructure was evacuated into the East on those railways.

Trotsky was tough. He saw more than the Revolution, he saw an entire country not only mired in centuries of backwardness but the wreckage of a civil war. Obama is going to be tough, too. Trotsky was tough on traitors, and I think Obama will be, too.

Ayers was a violent narcissist who clearly confabulated his memoirs. Like the early Russian revolutionaries, he justified his evil deeds with fine rhetoric. But the old revolutionaries failed. Ayers would never repent, but he found a better outlet for his idealism.

Barack Obama is a revolutionary of the old school, whose vision of America is no less radical than that of Jefferson, scribbling away on the Declaration of Independence in Philadelphia, or Trotsky rallying the troops at Petrograd. Obama doesn't care much about things as they were, but things as they might be, can be. That's what you ought to fear, not his past associations with some bomber turned academic.

"Channelling Michele Malkin" is an insult, (#113485)
by tomsyl

and an ignorant one at that. What does Malkin have to do with any of this?

And what "won't fly"? You repeatedly calling "innocent" a man who has admitted his own guilt? Why is it so hard to simply admit what he himself admitted - that he was a bomber and attempted murderer who founded and ran one of the most violent domestic terrorist groups of the last century?

Read through this thread and you will see me state repeatedly that I am not drawing a parallel or philosophical connection between Obama and Ayers. Meaning that the "call" you ask for is one I've made at least four times here in the past two days, and is there in black and white for anyone who looks before he shoots.

I don't have the faintest idea where you got this from:

Obama will go through this country like dose of dewormer going through a mangy old dog. When he's done, half this administration will face charges, and several may be extradited to the Hague for war crimes tribunals.

Is that something he or any of his advisers has ever said he would do? Or are you just channeling him for dramatic effect? And BTW, none of my family works in this administration, so why is your pipe dream "something I ought to fear"?

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Um, what part of "innocent" don't you understand, counselor? (#113492)
by BlaiseP

Yes you are channeling Malkin and that Stanley Kurtz over at Weekly Standard. Hardly an insult, that's exactly what you're doing.

While doing a little look-see googling on Prosecutorial Misconduct, I found this little gem. In the UK, falsified evidence is called Noble Cause Corruption. That pretty much sums up everything with this Ayers business. The USA did horrible things in Vietnam in the name of Noble Cause. Ayers did horrible things in his version of Noble Cause. The FBI and CIA did horrible things in their version of Noble Cause.

Out come the tar brushes in modern times! Kurtz and Malkin harp on this old theme in their version of a Noble Cause. And lo, here comes Tomsyl with much talk of Unrepentant Bombers. Nobody feels particularly guilty about the millions of tons of bombs dropped on SE Asia, or all that artillery, or all those dead people. They died in the cause of prosecuting a war, itself a Noble Cause.

May God in his mercy preserve us from this army of Noble Cause Crusaders.

As for my predictions about Obama, I have seen nobody say anything even remotely comparable to what I say. That's completely original, and I stand by my prediction. This will get really ugly, Tomsyl. The Bush cronies had best book one-way tickets to Paraguay, a day of reckoning is coming.

You say Ayers is innocent, he says he is "guilty as sin." (#113496)
by tomsyl

Who's right, Blaise - you or Ayers? I'd like a straight answer, not a lecture on mass guilt over Vietnam, some gas about English common law, or your impression of a duck. So far everything you have said is an evasion of that very simple question.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Thank God in his mercy I did not sit in judgment of others (#113506)
by BlaiseP

And when it comes right down to it, I'll say as I have before, including on this essay which you ought to re-read ere you harangue me on this topic, that two wrongs do not make a right. Allow me to quote myself, since your memory seems short:

Long after Bill Ayers came out of the cold and was found innocent by reason of prosecutorial misconduct, he would meet up with Barack Obama, then a community activist on the board of a charity, dedicated to improving the education of children in Chicagoland. If guilt by association may be extended to all sins in all times to all we will ever meet, we are surely all guilty.

I have already addressed the Guilty as Sin issue. I make no apology for Ayers' violence.

Quoting your own earlier post where you say Ayers is innocent (#113531)
by tomsyl

is supposed to prove that he was innocent? To repeat the question, you says Ayers is innocent and Ayers says Ayers is as guilty as hell. Which if you is right? No judgment of any kind is required, just a straight admission that you are wrong in arguing that a confessed terrorist bomber is innocent.

And to correct the misstatement ricocheting around here, Ayers was not "found innocent" in any legal proceeding; charges against him were dropped because the evidence proving his guilt came from illegal wiretaps. Even a criminal defendant who is indicted,goes to trial and wins is not "found innocent; the verdict reads "not guilty." It should be obvious that the two are differnt, unless you are one of those who believe OJ Simpson was "found innocent" of his ex-wife's murder.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

ROFL! You shall have no such admission, Tomsyl. (#113535)
by BlaiseP

You have waded in here, to extract some concessions and you shall have none. You wish to see Ayers in isolation, as we all saw Vietnam in Isolation, a nice little war far away across the Pacific, fought for Noble Causes, without the reading I give that phrase implying falsified evidence.

You have a damned poor understanding of procedural law, and it comes as no surprise to me that you would wish to present falsehoods to this mythical grand jury you have convened in the court of public opinion. Of the FBI's malfeasance and participation in murder you say nothing: of course you'll never go there. You'd grandstand and re-fight the whole of the Vietnam War, though that entire war was predicated on now-well-understood lies and exaggerations.

This is a nation of laws, thank God and not of men. Save a bit of your huffy outrage for the millions who died in a war you never saw, or the innocent men led into that meat grinder on the basis of a pack of lies. Bill Ayers gets no sympathy from me and I am not his defense attorney. I saw John McCain hug The Bug, a man who manifestly violated the laws of war, who we know tortured American servicemen. If you wish to add any names to the Lord High Executioner's List in this personal rendition of Gilbert and S