Mister Manners Takes Umbrage at Jim Webb's War Rage

Submitted by bobhiggins on Mon, 12/04/2006 - 11:36pm. Tags:




"Mister Manners," George Will (pictured above in the second grade) asks:
"Can't We Wage Aggressive War, Kill Thousands of Innocent People,
Destroy American Liberty And Still Be Civil?

By now everyone has heard all about the "Teapot Tempest" surrounding Senator-Elect James Webb's alleged rude treatment of the President of the United States at their recent meeting.

Webb, who was awarded the Navy Cross for valor under fire and two Purple Hearts for wounds received in Vietnam has a son serving in Iraq. When President Chicken-Hawk asked Webb how his son was doing, Webb replied that he wished that the troops would soon be leaving Iraq. When the president responded with the comment "that's not what I asked you," "how's your boy?" Webb replied, "that's between me and my boy Mr. President."

George Will, our "Mr. Manners," remarked on this event in the Washington Post a couple of days ago, writing:

"Webb certainly has conveyed what he is: a boor. Never mind the patent disrespect for the presidency. Webb's more gross offense was calculated rudeness toward another human being- one who, disregarding many hard things Webb had said about him during the campaign, asked a civil and caring question, as one parent to another."



The nearly always erudite, often boring and constantly pompous Mr. Manners, who has been described as a "wax figure" and who, I suspect, carried a briefcase to school in the second grade, seems to have gotten his shorts in more of a wad than usual over this incident.

"A boor?"

I don't remember having heard heard that expression since Myrna Loy used it in describing someone to William Powell in an old "Thin Man" movie from the '40s.
Not having been born into a life of protected privilege, I will probably never understand the arrogance which seems to come so naturally to many of those who were so blessed.

George Will was born to such a life, the son of a professor of philosophy, he comes by his special penchant for being ponderously boring quite honestly. While a generation of his peers fought and died in Vietnam, George was studying or teaching political philosophy and preparing for a career often spent encouraging the powerful to send the sons and daughters of the powerless into harms away in defense of every indefensible, hare brained notion of empire dreamed up by his patrician elite.

Likewise the President for whom he professes such respect, during the same period was using his family connections to twist every arm that could keep him out of the jungles of Southeast Asia and preparing for a career of failing at every business endeavor he undertook and being bailed out at every turn by his wealthy and powerful parents and their even wealthier friends.

Now, President Chicken Hawk has found his true calling as a professional pompous ass politician in the employ of the same people who did so much to help him during his disastrous business career.

The accomplishments of his political career may be out shone by his prior, not so stellar, business achievements.

Here we have a twice UN-elected president who is directly responsible for the deaths of nearly 3000 of America's most valiant children and the wounding, maiming, and traumatizing of more than 20,000 others, as well as the deaths of perhaps 100,000 Iraqis who got in the way of his quest for Empire or revenge, or insane lust to prove that he is a tougher guy than his Yale cheerleader uniform would indicate.

George Will expects civility toward this S.O.B.?

Mister Manners is upset over Sen. Webb's "patent disrespect for the presidency." I would submit that no American in history has done more to cover the Presidency of the United States with disrepute than George Walker Bush and his merry band of criminals, incompetents, and downright psychopaths.

I firmly believe that Jim Webb has so much respect for the office of the president that he finds it difficult to treat the current occupant with what might pass for the proper fawning, sycophantic, bowing and scraping which George Will seems to expect.

Nora Ephron took a nice swat at our two Georges in a piece titled "Target="_blank">Bad Manners"at Huffington Post the other day. She concluded:

"So finally someone said to George Bush, Don't think that what you stand for is beside the point. Don't think that because you're President you're entitled to my good opinion. Don't think that asking about my boy means that I believe for even one second that you care. If you did, you'd be doing something about bringing the troops home.

George Will thinks this is bad manners.

I don't.

I think it's too bad it doesn't happen more often."

Nora Ephron

I have to agree with that sentiment, it seems to me that when the Office of the President of my United States is being held by a criminal as well as an abject boob a proper respect for the office demands that we stand up and spit in his eye.

Senator Webb, My hat's off to you.

Bob Higgins


--

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Not no, but hell no. (#15503)
by Spartacvs on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 11:11am

Webb apparently declined to kiss the ring.

Good for him.

--

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

( )
You guys aren't outraged enough! (#15424)
by Username on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:30pm

Come on guys, give it your best! NewsBusters shows how real right-wingers do it: not only do they attack Webb, they go after George Will for not attacking enough!!

George Will Takes on Jim Webb -- Only After the Election

George Will turned heads yesterday with a brutal column on Senator-Elect Jim Webb, scouring him for being rude to President Bush at a reception, and then -- in a critique sure to outrage Webb, the literary lion in his own mind -- assaults Webb's hyperbolic use of English, as in saying the rich are "infinitely" richer than the poor. Will proclaimed Webb is a "subtraction" from civility. But perhaps Will should have used a disclaimer: before the election, Will aided this "subtraction" by scouring Sen. George Allen (he "makes no secret of finding life as a senator tedious") in a Post column seven days before the election. As with the Weekly Standard and their George Allen-bashing cover this fall, when you help make the “Macaca majority,” then you should look in the mirror before despairing over the man you helped usher in.

It's debatable that Webb's prickly party routine is somehow a graver assault on the civic-mindedness of the Republic than his (and the Washington Post's) sleazy personal campaign against Allen from August to November. Will's outrage seems awfully situational coming after the election, as if he's exhaling after kissing the ring of his Post bosses on a race in which they very much had a favorite. He wasn’t anti-Allen at all in 2005 as he favorably assessed his presidential suitability.

I have been a fan of Will's thoughts and prose for a long while, and have a pile of his column collections in my little library. Whether you think it's good or bad, Will is not a party man or a "movement" man. He keeps his distance from, well, "entangling alliances," if we want to quote Founding Fathers. Except, its seems, for his Post family. The column saying the Mark Foley scandal is the cherry on the "Democrats' delectable sundae of Republican miseries" is rather unforgettable, even if his beginning, shellacking the religious right with Sinclair Lewis's "Elmer Gantry," is incredibly tedious. There's also the column hailing Bob Woodward's book as "Katrina between covers." Does anyone hear what one columnist once famously described as the "arf" of a tinny lapdog?

Heck yeah! Let this be a lesson to you all!

( )
My, my, my (#15426)
by Bill White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:33pm

George Will sure ripped Webb a new one. Egads! and Gadzooks!

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( | parent )
*Very* slow news day... (#15432)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:46pm

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
the chattering political class sucks (#15316)
by catchy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 7:07pm

I'd rather gossip about celebrity relationships.

Anyone get caught with the nanny today?

( )
This is very disspiriting. (#15265)
by hobbesist on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:40pm

To think - such boorishness ... among elected officials no less! Next thing you know, some choleric vice president will be dropping the f-word on the floor of the Senate.

Please. Spare me the indignation and apologetics both.

--

Bene vixit, bene qui latuit

( )
Slow news day... (#15289)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 5:49pm

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
I was at a speech Bill Clinton gave once . . . (#15244)
by tomsyl on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:09pm

to a relatively small group (less than 100 people) at an EIA convention in DC post-impeachment. When he came into the room, I stood up and applauded. (A number in the audience [including several in their twenties] did not, which shocked me.) I listened politely to his speech, applauded, then stood and applauded again as he left. A minor, even insignificant story, except that I held very strong feelings against the man at the time. It never occurred to me to show those feelings by dissing him at a public event. That would have been rude, and contrary to how I was raised.

Maybe this has no relevance to Webb's situation - he's a big gun with a kid in Iraq, while I was just a minor audience member. But would it have killed Webb to be polite?

--

My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken

( )
Lemme buy you a drink... (#15246)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:11pm

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
I had had several - maybe that's why I was polite %^> (#15249)
by tomsyl on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:14pm

-o-0-o-

--

My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken

( | parent )
Argh (#15226)
by sebastien on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:39pm

It pains me to feel so, but I think Sen. Webb was wrong. I probably share every sentiment that led him to act like that, but the ability to maintain meaningful discourse - particularly in the face of passionate disagreement - is key to our survival of the potential crises ahead. As bad as things seem they can get a lot worse, and if the new Senator from Virginia can't even be in the same room as the President then how does he propose to get anything done? Does he expect to simply go over the President's head with his bare majority?

I have no doubt that George Bush the man deserved everything Webb had to give him, but George Bush the President required respect. I could be wrong, but as terribly disrespectful as the entire Republican Senate was to Bill Clinton in the press or in debate, I don't recall any of them ever disrespecting him to his face, which is definitely a kind of escalation. What next? Rotten tomatoes during the State of the Union?

Apologize, Senator Webb. On principle.

--

"There are sneakers that cost more than an iPod." -Steve Jobs

( )
as terribly disrespectful as the entire Republican Senate was to (#15227)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:42pm

Bill Clinton.

Er, when was the entire GOP Senate disrespectful?

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
You've gotta be kidding -nt (#15232)
by sebastien on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:52pm

.

--

"There are sneakers that cost more than an iPod." -Steve Jobs

( | parent )
Not at all (#15235)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:56pm

you should be able to roll out an example.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Next time please rearrange your sentences (#15142)
by tomsyl on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:01pm

to put ones like this first:

I would submit that no American in history has done more to cover the Presidency of the United States with disrepute than George Walker Bush and his merry band of criminals, incompetents, and downright psychopaths.

That will signal me to skip the rest of your post and send you the phone number of a good psychiatrist.

--

My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken

( )
Of course if you need a shrink (#15377)
by Jay C on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:07pm

You can always get in touch with this guy - I'm sure he'll be able to provide a fair, balanced and equanimable diagnosis.

( | parent )
That was one of the sneakier things in this thread (#15441)
by tomsyl on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 12:13am

The Onion's satires are getting so clever that sometimes they're very hard to spot.

--

My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken

( | parent )
Actually it's quite real (#15473)
by Jay C on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 9:26am

Well, as close to "reality" as Dr. R is likely to get -
Unfortunately, while Townhall.com may be a joke, it's no satire!

( | parent )
I know - it was my comment that was satirical. (#15827)
by tomsyl on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 9:39pm

-o-0-o-

--

My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken

( | parent )
Next time... (#15170)
by uh_clem on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 2:19pm

Bob,

Please use the quote icon, so that it's clear that it's just a cut and paste job followed by a resounding "me too".

Tom,

Anyway, the Webb/Bush dust up is a Rorshach ink blot if ever there was one. And I'm no more likely to convince you that my interpretation is correct than I am to convince my shrink that his blots all have naked people in them.

But they're there. I'm sure of it.

( | parent )
Heh! (#15223)
by Bill White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:38pm

I agree 100%

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( | parent )
RE: Heh (#15497)
by uh_clem on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 10:53am

I agree 100%

So, you've seen the inkblots too?

( | parent )
Have you sent these to me yet? Just pick the best ones. (#15829)
by tomsyl on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 9:40pm

I'm tired of trolling the usual alphabet-prefixed websites.

--

My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken

( | parent )
Please send me your ink blots as hi-rez scans (#15220)
by tomsyl on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:32pm

so I can give you a second opinion. I hope we can at least find common ground on this issue.

--

My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken

( | parent )
Save that phone number for (#15151)
by pumpkin ash on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:29pm

this dude.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
Like a breath of fresh air! This review just in: (#15237)
by tomsyl on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:56pm

"An entirely new perspective, without the slightest touch of rancor. The author eschews the temptation to excavate ossified bile and ancient apocrypha, choosing instead to focus on rapproachment between the Bush Administration and its critics. Hope for a new beginning is expressed, starting with a promise to avoid hackneyed insults, ad hominem attacks and general angst about BushChimpHitlerCo's dictatorial reign. Bravo!"

ConservoBot Sockpuppet Autoresponse v1.12 (Build 12)

--

My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken

( | parent )
Bush will be Bush (#15115)
by pumpkin ash on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:44am

So The Decider gets in Webb's face and asks/demands to know how Webb's Marine 2nd Lt "boy" is dodging the IEDs in Iraq (in so many words) [while Bush daughters are partying in Argentina, and Bush nephews are doing whatever]?

Bush's sharp bullying retort would seem to confirm that intimidation was indeed his intent with his unctuous "How's your boy doing" question.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( )
May be different where you're form; where I'm from - and where (#15189)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 2:54pm

Webb's from -- that's called small talk and, like or not one is supposed to be reasonably polite about it.

One also isn't supposed to got to parties where one doesn't like the host specifically to avoid situations like that and risk ruining the party for others. It's called commpon courtesy.

Webb blew it. I was prepared to give him some slack even though I had reservations over a couple of stunts he pulled while he was ASecDef and SecNav. Then he pulled the Combat Boot shtick -- tacky, that. Now this, not bad, just unnecessary.

My suspicion is the Democrats may nor be happy with their new acquisition...

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Webb WAS polite about it (#15256)
by pumpkin ash on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:24pm

even after Bush got in his face with a bad-tempered bullying retort.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
and how do you know this?-nt (#15259)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:27pm

VVVVVVV

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Here is the exchange, according to Webb: (#15272)
by pumpkin ash on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 5:00pm

According to this link

"How's your boy?" Webb, in an interview Wednesday, recalled Bush asking during the reception two weeks ago.

"I told him I'd like to get them out of Iraq," Webb said.

"That's not what I asked. How's your boy?" the president replied, according to Webb.

At that point, Webb said, Bush got a response similar to what reporters and others who had asked Webb about Lance Cpl. Jimmy Webb, 24, have received since the young man left for Iraq around Labor Day: "I told him that was between my boy and me."

Webb, a leading critic of the Iraq war, said that he had avoided the receiving line and photo op with Bush, but that the president found him.

The White House had no comment on the reception. But it did not dispute an account of the exchange in Wednesday's Washington Post.

The question on my mind is: Has President Bush ever met Senator Webb's son personally, or has Webb ever talked with Bush about his son before?

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
it did not dispute (#15277)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 5:06pm

and it did not affirm.

The question on my mind is the parameters of the diary and not much else.

BTW, thanks for the link.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Its best to stic,k to the weather... (#15112)
by MaxSchrek on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:22am

.. unless its a hurricane in New Orleans.

--

Its just a model, you wouldn't want to bank on it.

( )
The entire episode (#15110)
by Bill White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:03am

was scripted to set up a confrontation. George Will is a known partisan who edited the conversation between Bush and Webb to heighten the dramatic effect. "That's not what I asked" was edited from Will's version of the conversation.

George Will wrote a hit piece, therefore any crying he does about "civility" is utter [forvm deleted term].

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( )
Sideshow Bob is right again (#15106)
by Blue Neponset on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 9:32am

A lot of Repubs seem to think Bush should be treated like a King. They seem to believe that no one is allowed to take offense to anything Dubya says because he is the President. We all must answer Bush's questions no matter how offended we may be by them.

Maybe Repubs can't understand why Webb was offended, but he clearly was offended by the casual manner in which Bush asked about his son. If I asked a business colleague about his son and got a less than friendly response then I most likely wouldn't ask the same question two seconds later. Maybe I am wierd like that but it seems to me neither Webb nor Bush acted too politely. Having said that I still give the benefit of the doubt to Webb becasue the topic of conversation was his son and a father has a right to be touchy about that subject. Bush, OTOH, doesn't have a right to have his questions answered.

--

Mucho gusto me llamo Bradley... -B. Nowell

( )
Don't know about where you're from but in the South, (#15193)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 2:59pm

a guy asks another guy a polite, making conversation question, trying to be genial and he gets a snappy reponse like Webb gave, the guy is likely to get peeved. I would've.

Bush got peeved. Webb went there peeved, he should not have -- or he should've played by the rules.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Well when you live in NJ and a greasy mafia boss (#15263)
by pumpkin ash on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:41pm

who wants you out of his territory comes up next to you at a social event and asks you how your family (who he does not personally know) is doing, you take that as intimidation.

That is at least as an appropriate analogy as your 'Southern gentleman' fantasy is.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
You'll be receiving a visit from Tony Soprano shortly (#15299)
by tomsyl on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 6:23pm

and if I were you, I'd be very polite. If the man shakes hands with you and asks how your kids are, say "Great!" even if you don't have kids.

--

My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken

( | parent )
Really. Who knew. Use to date a Girl in Red Bank, the local (#15291)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 5:57pm

boss wasn't greasy at all. Restaurant had good food, too. Best Lasagna I've ever had.

Don't know about you Ash but my intimidation factor hovers at about .0063. As for the 'Southern Gentleman' item, you should probably stay up north, you'll fit in better.

As for the fantasy charge, thank you. I'm properly impressed and deeply appreciative. I have been called a fantasist by he who is without doubt far and away the leader in providing fantasies on this board.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Not a charge. More of a virtue. (#15501)
by pumpkin ash on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 11:05am

I am also fantasizing in my analogy, but according to my earlier link, the facts appear to be that GWB searched out Webb, who was trying to blend into the wallpaper at an evidently mandatory attendance reception for the ~60+ new congresspeople, and then Bush broached a very personal and emotionally charged area about Webb's son (who GWB probably has never met) in harm's way in Iraq War. If Bush took the trouble to research Webb's Marine son on duty at that moment in Ramadi-IED-Land, he must have also been well aware of Webb's position against the Iraq war. Thus, one would think that any person with normal sensitivities would realize "how's your boy?" as an inappropriate topic for polite small-talk.

GWB may not be all that articulate or intellectual, in the "pre-frontal cortex" sense, but his reptile brain seems highly developed, and he is an expert in pushing buttons of people he views as threats, with his trademark demeaning putdowns and intimidating behaviors.

Is this latest incident deliberate intimidation or just bone-headed insensitivity by GWB?

At this point I'm well past giving Bush the benefit of the doubt.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
mandatory attendance reception ? (#15649)
by Timmy on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 3:17pm

now what law would that be, and who passed it?

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Unclear as to the nature and wording of the invites (#15772)
by pumpkin ash on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 5:37pm

to the 'Congressional Newbie' WH reception, based on the unsourced WAPO article account of the run-in [also not clear from story if the WaPo reporter Michael D. Shear was invited to reception and personally witnessed the Bush-Webb exchange, or if it was related to him "on background"], but it appears that the occasion was sufficiently 'motivating' to bring out nearly all the newly elected congressmen and senators, including Webb.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
Not mandatory (#15886)
by Chuchundra on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 10:02am

Although Keith Ellison did get some flack for skipping the event so that he could attend an AFL-CIO reception.

--

Guard, protect and cherish your land, for there is no afterlife for a place that started out as Heaven.

( | parent )
This is All Well and Good (#15254)
by Harley on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:21pm

But the rules get a little bendy when dealing with a failed war president and the ways in which his inability to face/understand reality are costing the lives of young American men and women.

Full stop.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

( | parent )
Way to prove you don't understand what's happening (#15293)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 6:02pm

What your "failed war President" does and doesn';t understand is irrelevant to Iraq other than that he ordered the troops in -- with the grudging consent of Congress. so speak to your Congress critters.

Once they get in, it's up to the Armed Forces to handle it. They haven't done that well. What's costing the lives of young and old Americans is a complex situation that Bush has no more control of than you do.

Of course, he could do what Webb says and just bring them home. I grant you that. Is that what you think he should do?

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
He should declare victory and bring them home (#15363)
by FuDog on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 9:45pm

Though he probably should have done that earlier. As to blaming Bush or the militarily, I'd be happy blame both. Unfortunately, generals aren't elected.

( | parent )
Only to have someone send the troops back in the future (#15364)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 9:47pm

that's the ticket.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
If and when the troops do go back, (#15372)
by FuDog on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:00pm

I think they would be in a better position. Though it's hard say without knowing what they're going back for. Why do you think they'd need to go back (and soon, presumably)?

( | parent )
I think they would be in a better position (#15374)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:02pm

and what position would that be?

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Yes, that was too vague (#15387)
by FuDog on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:20pm

When we went in this time, there were two widely proclaimed war aims: weapons of mass destruction and regime change. Both of them were centered on Saddam and his Baath party. After Saddam was captured and his party was driven from power, we were left fighting a guerilla war. I don't think America is either militarily or politically well suited to that kind fighting. If we left and then came back, we would have the advantage of fighting a conventional war again. And it would be easier to go after figures like Muqtada al-Sadr.

( | parent )
If we left and then came back (#15397)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:39pm

what would be our "widely proclaimed war aims"?

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Meddle with the Islamic version (#15399)
by Bill White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:46pm

of the Thirty Years War?

That is what this is really about. Will Islam be fundie Sunni, moderate Sunni or some branch of Shia?

Perhaps 9/11 was merely collateral damage from an Islamic civil war and it wasn't really all about us in the first place.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( | parent )
That is what this really about (#15403)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:54pm

well duh?

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Our war aims (#15413)
by Bill White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:06pm

of course. What did you think?

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( | parent )
National Security and the opportunity to engage in a smaller war (#15421)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:29pm

:)

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Nice fantasy (#15422)
by Bill White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:30pm

but wrong

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( | parent )
Well both continue to be key drivers (#15425)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:33pm

which is why the Dems have not rolled out with anything else.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Bush stuck our fingers in a doozy of (#15427)
by Bill White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:36pm

a Chinese finger puzzle. That is for sure.

= = =

But did you see Reyes call for more troops in Iraq?

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( | parent )
60 years of neglect will do that-nt (#15429)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:36pm

:)

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
What are you talking about? (#15454)
by HankP on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 1:25am

we've been heavily involved in all those countries for the past 60 years.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
involved in or involved with, not that it really matters (#15463)
by Timmy on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 6:38am

but I will run with two countries, Syria and Iran, what price have they paid for Lebanon?

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
You got that right - and the troops there have figured that (#15370)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 9:56pm

out, that's why, much as they don't like it there, they're reenlisting in record numbers to go back.

I have talked to several dozen folks who've been to Iraq; to a man (and three women) they're firmly convinced of that.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
All of the folks I've talked to who were in Iraq (#15410)
by Username on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:01pm

(including 4 women and a puerto rican) have said it was a huge waste of time.

( | parent )
Why does that not surprise me. Most who serve in support units (#15434)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:50pm

in any war -- and not a few of the grunts -- will tell you that. That's not the point though; ask them if we left now, whether they think we'd have to go back within a few years to a bigger mess.

That's what we were discussing, not the fact that it's screwed up now; that's obvious to all of us.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Way To Prove You Flunked History 101 (#15303)
by Harley on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 6:36pm

Heh. We could go back and forth in this manner if you desire. Nothing like a snarky subject line to prove absolutely nothing.

This is about perception, Pops. And Bush is now a failed war president. It's his war. Nobody else's. That's the way this works. He bet his presidency on it and he lost. You can blame the Armed Forces if you want to -- why does Ken hate the military? -- but Bush has a great deal more control than you understand, even when it comes to this 'complex situation' (last refuge of a failed idea -- call it complex).

As for bringing them home, that's exactly what he's going to do. The question is when, not if. The sad thing, is that there will be a period during which he continues to pretend there's a win to be had here, and every life lost during that period is one that might have been saved. But hey. What's a few lives in the service of a Bad Idea?

You tell me. It's your idea, too.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

( | parent )
Such subject lines are a perfectly valid and appropriate (#15357)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 9:32pm

response to comments with little but snark.

I understand about popular perception and I know that. I just thought you were smarter than the popular percievers. Seriously.

Didn't flunk it, made an A in it. Did that in all my History minor classes. Enjoy it. Have almost a thousanf history books in the house as we speak. Did you even take History 101?

As for why does Ken hate the military, childish and ineffective -- and wrong, as you know. Pains me to say it but wars get messed up, nonbody does a sterling job, even the Army I was in and worked for and mu boys were all in screws up a lot. I know you know that but you seem to forget it frequently -- or act like you have. As for History; Lincoln, great Prez. Check his treatment of Hooker and Howard after the battle of Chancellorsville. Check the Army's handling of Hooker and Howard -- some things don't change much. Wars don't, things get screwed up.

See, for example, WW I, WW II, Korea, Viet Nam, Desert Storm...

Bush has a lot of control over US actions; almost none over the actions of others -- including the Iraqis. Which, is of course what I obviously meant (the Prez is the Prez, after all -- that would be Basic Civics, BTW, not History) and which you apparently missed.

I probably have a far better idea than you do about how much control Bush has -- and how he decides to exercise the control that he has. What you're missing or ignoring is that for dozens of reasons we are where we are and there are really three options; continue what we're doing; tweak things to the extent possible (not to the extent any of us would like, to that possible); or leave. We'd like to have more options but there are a lot of other players that do not want us to have those options and we have constraints so those are the three we have.

Don't bet the farm on him bringing 'em home. He may cave in to Baker & Co's apparent prescription but I'm inclined to believe he will not.

Which reminds me, you didn't really answer my question; do you think he should pull them out now?

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Congrats on the Gentleman's A!! (#15360)
by Harley on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 9:37pm

Sorry. I wanted to read your comment. But when you bragged about how many books you have? You sorta lost me. But hey. You'll always have Timmy.

Enjoy!!

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

( | parent )
So, as usual, we got drive by snark and nothing substantive (#15373)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:01pm

I didn't go to an Ivy league School; the land grants didn't do "Gentelemen" and they didn't pass out As as the Ivys did and do. Who was bragging -- merely stated a fact but I did forget that, as we all know, you don't deal well with those.

Must be a congenital fiction writers syndrome.

Yet again you failed to answer a simple question asked in good faith...

Nah, you enjoy.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
No Offense (#15445)
by Harley on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 12:38am

But sometimes you brag when in fact you think you're stating facts. Just sayin'.

And I think we should set a date and bring everybody home. Full stop. This is the wrong war fought on the direction of folks who never understood the region or the reasons to fight it. Fighting it longer won't change that.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

( | parent )
None taken. My facts may seem like a brag but, trust me, I'm (#15452)
by Ken White on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 1:20am

to lazy to bother.

I figured you thought that way. I don't and as I'm sure you know, there aren't too many in Washington who are as certain as you, though there certainly some and I suspect Baker and most of the elderly types on that panel agree with you. The majority in Congress, Democrats and Republicans alike, aren't sure why they're uneasy about pulling out but they know they are. I don't think Bush will back down unless he gets a lot more pressure than I can foresee at this time. We'll see.

I'm sure not looking for great things from Gates...

I agree with you that the Admin didn't know how to fight it and have screwed it up -- badly. I imagine that bothers me even more than it does you.

I don't agree that they didn't understand the reasons. Good reasons, really bad execution. My problem is that lacking a relatively stable Iraq -- and we're talking ME style stability here, not the west -- we'll back over there sorting out a much bigger and worse mess at an even greater cost within five to ten years. The Saudis will not stand by and allow the Iranians to dominate the area; the Iranians will try to back down the Saudis and then there'll be a real war.

That plus the fact that the Islamists who are not much more than significant pests at this point will read the wrong message into our hasty withdrawal and start getting feisty again. That could lead to attacks here and elsewhere and the elsewhere is more bothersome to me than is here. If they get Europe riled up then we'll really have a mess -- and that coulda woulda happened whether we went to Iraq or not...

You may not agree and that's fine. Just remember you heard it here first. :)

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
A Relatively Stable Iraq (#15499)
by Harley on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 10:59am

Hmm. Sorta like before we invaded?

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

( | parent )
Had we not invaded and had Saddam died, how stable??? (#15517)
by Ken White on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 12:44pm

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Sparti's Right, Below (#15552)
by Harley on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 1:32pm

A great deal more stable than the swamp we made.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

( | parent )
I strongly doubt that either of you is correct. Immaterial in (#15600)
by Ken White on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 2:24pm

any event. We're there and all the carping in town won't change that.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
We are there (#15608)
by Spartacvs on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 2:31pm

and we need to figure how to get the hell out while minimising the damage caused and the potential for further damage in the future, all while holding GW's hand as he and his supporters negotiate this painfull public intervention.

--

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

( | parent )
The first statement is correct, the rest is your opinion. (#15661)
by Ken White on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 3:34pm

Others differ. Many others.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Sure (#15704)
by Spartacvs on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 4:09pm

However, I would argue that mine is closer to what might be considered a national consensus than that of the 'many others' to which you refer.

--

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

( | parent )
I doubt it. Nationsl media consensus, possibly. National (#15711)
by Ken White on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 4:12pm

educated elite consensus almost certainly. National consensuss -- hardly. Far from it, I suspect.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Oops (#15721)
by Harley on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 4:25pm

That's simply not true. There is no evidence, none, that this is simply a consensus of the 'educated elite.' Cripes, man. You need to get out more. You need to look at the relevant polling data. And you need to take an honest look at your own opinions.

And remember. Just cuz you're in a dwindling minority doesn't mean you're wrong. You are, in this case. But it doesn't always mean that.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

( | parent )
We can disagree on that. And I acknowledge a little (#15760)
by Ken White on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 5:15pm

hyperbole on that. Got two neighbor professors who are far more hawkish than I am -- and one' of 'em's italian Italian. So the edumacated elite aren't universally anti-Iraq war; just mostly. Should have said a large proportion of the educated elite... :)

You did note I also said most of the MSM also has that consensus. Get away from those two communites -- plus the artistic community, rarely war lovers -- and the bulk of the nation; what, maybe 85-90% ? is in the One third rule box.

That is; 1/3 wants out today; 1/3 wants to fight to the death; the remaining 1/3 sways back and forth -- right now they're polling anti- but you and I both know that a sudden turn would send them flocking to the other side of the boat.

Nah, I'm not wrong and I always look at my opinions honestly. I just wish others would look at my opinions honestly instead of trying to skew them. :)

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
And thus (#15720)
by Spartacvs on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 4:21pm

the true national consensus in your opinion would be what?

--

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

( | parent )
There obviously isn't one. The John Adams one-third rule (#15755)
by Ken White on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 5:05pm

applies. 1/3 are opposed to the war and want out now; 1/3 support it and want to press on; the remaining third is ambivalent and wallows back and forth depending on which way the wind blows and the news of the day.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Well (#15757)
by Spartacvs on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 5:12pm

the wind and the news of the day has been moving pretty consistently in one direction for some time now, which by my calculations makes 2/3 for getting out and 1/3 in support of stay the course. Sounds about right and supports my opinion on the current consensus.

--

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

( | parent )
Oh, I agrree and will not rain on your parade by pointing out (#15768)
by Ken White on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 5:29pm

that tomorrow is another day... :)

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
In all likelyhood (#15534)
by Spartacvs on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 1:07pm

Significantly more stability than as exists today and for the concievable future.

--

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

( | parent )
Depends on how he might have died (#15533)
by pumpkin ash on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 1:07pm

If of old age, and after oil-for food/other domestic economy-crippling sanctions had been removed since he didn't have any WMD, probably a good bit more stable than now.

If by a BigOil-engineered assasination coup (a la Syriana) which put Saddam's mustache on a new pre-ordained BigOil-compliant strongman dictator, probably about the same as above.

If by one of those murky mystery car-bomb assasinations that have occurred in the past two years in Lebanon, probably about like the chaos in Lebanon.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
then there'll be a real war (#15467)
by Timmy on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 6:51am

and it will be a really big one.

Think of the Balkans at the turn of the last century.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Cambridge first, but finished on the West Coast (#15375)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:04pm

if memory serves.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
or you can keep up with the news, after the bait and switch (#15362)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 9:44pm

in the last election.

...the soon-to-be chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, said he wants to see an increase of 20,000 to 30,000 U.S. troops as part of a stepped up effort to “dismantle the militias.”

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Uhm, Okay (#15365)
by Harley on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 9:48pm

But I'm not sure what this news has to do with my opinion that Bush is a failed war president. Or even my opinion re when the troops will be brought home. But thanks for the link!!

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

( | parent )
Opinion, well public opinion, migrates over time (#15371)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:00pm

and the best example is Truman--Lincoln to a lesser extent (see August 1864 letter to his cabinet)--and his exit from public office in disgrace only to see his resurrection through the efforts of the GOP over the duration.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Well you were probably too young to remember the LBJ-Nixon (#15309)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 6:53pm

handoff and way too young for the Truman-Ike handoff. As for bringing them home in the next two years or you will hold your breath, we will just refer to you as the little blue boy in the corner.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Little Boy Winner Blue State to you, Bub. nt (#15322)
by Harley on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 7:17pm

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

( | parent )
anytime you play the history card babe (#15326)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 7:36pm

the beatings will continue.

A suggestion, stick to things you know something about, history ain't one of them.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Well, I Dunno, What's Worse? (#15337)
by Harley on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 8:23pm

Knowing how little you know or thinking you know more than you do to an embarrassing degree?

Heh. You tell me.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

( | parent )
Rolling out a history test and not knowing your history (#15355)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 9:30pm

nothing could be worse. I just rolled out two historical examples, you rolled out nothing.

BTA, maybe you can point out where it appears on the Democrats' agenda and then hold your breath back to the corner ol blue boy.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
That's all you do, Timmy (#15390)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:30pm

you mention historical examples with no context, no content, and no interpretation. You might as well throw a dart at a table of contents. I'll take Harley every time.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
I'll take Harley for a $100 (#15400)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:49pm

Of course you will take Harley and his "failed war president" meme as it is a snug fit with your own view.

But failure is subject to the test of duration and circumstances. The best example is Lincoln in the late summer of 1864 when he wrote a letter to his cabinet telling them to look for a job (something about his election prospects related to the prospects of the civil war) and of course Hank you know what ultimately happened.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Right answer, wrong reason (#15416)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:17pm

I also like reading Kierkegaards posts, even though I disagree with many of them. Ken White too, and most others here. You see, they actually explain what they mean and present a linked set of coherent sentences that form an argument. Obscure references and fishing expeditions they do not do. Maybe that's just me, but I don't think so.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
Sorry but both Kierkegaard and Ken (#15419)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:27pm

are old and have plenty of time to respond to issues which have been raised on more than one occassion.

Failure usually dictates a response, so Hank what has been the loyal opposition's response, er plan, been? Or are you just a victim of a bait and switch?

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Even the younger people (#15443)
by HankP on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 12:31am

find the time to make sense.

No bait and switch. Bush f&%^&^ed it up to the point that there are no good options left.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
there are no good options left (#15465)
by Timmy on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 6:47am

of note, there are never any good options in an armed conflict only necessary options.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
He got shot (#15412)
by catchy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:05pm

nt

( | parent )
But not in 1864-nt (#15418)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:22pm

:)

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
How do you have time to think of all that stuff (#15266)
by tomsyl on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:42pm

before deciding whether to be polite to someone? "Lemme see, he's got his hand out to shake, but he's a failed war president. Can he face reality? Dunno. How many soldiers have died because of him? Well less than 3000 to date, so I guess I'll shake his hand. Damn, where'd he go? How rude!"

--

My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken

( | parent )
Heh (#15286)
by Harley on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 5:36pm

But it's an emotional thing, no need to give it much thought. This is one of the least popular men in the country. And I'd think even less so among some military families.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

( | parent )
Definitely. All of the military families I know (#15411)
by Username on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:05pm

huge a huge problem with him. They're also very glad that Rumsfeld is gone.

( | parent )
Folks in New England have had a problem with all our wars, (#15435)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:55pm

I think there's something in the water up there. They fomented a revolution and fought in it and they fought in the Civil War but other than Maine and New Hampshire, the rest of the area has objected to all the other wars.

All the Democrats in Mass. -- and there are a whole lot of them have a problem with Bush. Unless your military families are career folks, about all they know about Rumsfeld is what they read in the paper.

So, no news there...

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Families in MA, TX, GA, FL, TN, (#15437)
by Username on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 12:10am

though I'm sure I missed some others.

( | parent )
Aren't you well travelled. Though you did say families, (#15440)
by Ken White on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 12:13am

zat mean the former troopies are in Mass going to school now?

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Five states, thus it had to be plural-nt (#15464)
by Timmy on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 6:43am

:)

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Some, not a majority. (#15461)
by Username on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 2:59am

I'm not that well-traveled in the US. It's a huge country.

( | parent )
Yeah, it is. I'm still missing three States after a lifetime of (#15526)
by Ken White on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 1:02pm

traveling about it.

Reason I said students; I'm auditing a class at a local college. Got two 20-something guys in it who were in Iraq. we go get coffee after class two days a week. both are sorta bitter and disillusioned over Iraq -- but one says that we need to be there, the other disagrees and says no. Both do agree that we'd have been there sooner or later and that if we leave now, we'll have to go back.

I'm sympathetic -- and impressed. I got out of the Marines at the tail end of Korea and went to school on the GI Bill. Most of us were disillusioned and upset over the mess that was Korea and were convinced it was totally unnecessary. Only later as we got less judgmental (albeit not particularly smarter) did we realize there was some merit to it -- even if it was not done well. The kids in my class are a little sharper now than we were then.

Point of all that -- College contributes to unease over any war (as it should) and everything isn't always known or even apparent at a given point in time and based on one perspective. Don't know the people you know but do suggest that may be a part of their expressed discontent.

Not that I'm content over Iraq...

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
To the contrary, most military families I know - and I imagine (#15295)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 6:07pm

that's about 10 to 100xmore than most folks here -- have no problem with him. Most also think Rumsfeld was doing an okay job. Most are less sure of Abizaid and CentCom.

To be sure, there are some who have no use for any of those three, others who can tolerate one or two but not the other. But most support the effort and W.

Sorry, Harley, StarKist wants Tunas that taste good... :)

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
or when reality sets in,if we are to follow your recommendations (#15257)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:27pm

a bigger war to follow.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Where Bush & I come from... (#15218)
by Blue Neponset on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:29pm

...we aren't so polite and as a result we don't take little BS things like this personally. Apparantly I manged to learn that from my time here and Bush didn't. In fact, people who do overact to such things are looked down upon by their fellow Yankees because they are clearly too sensitive for such an impolite environment.

--

Mucho gusto me llamo Bradley... -B. Nowell

( | parent )
Lived in Cambridge for four years - just as polite as LA (#15248)
by tomsyl on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:13pm

(right, Harley?) Many of the toughest characters ever to inhabit Congress were polite in public to their bitterest opponents - those that weren't came off as second class.

--

My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken

( | parent )
Fascinating. Spent almost a year in Boston, over a year and a (#15236)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:56pm

half living in Manhattan and and a year in Chicago. I saw as much sensitivity and chip on shoulder stuff there as I ever have in the South -- just over slightly different things...

W. spent more time in Texas than you have, probably... :)

I will grant you that much of the North is indeed an impolite environment. Almost childishly so.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Never been to Texas (#15261)
by Blue Neponset on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:32pm

Maybe I have lived a sheltered, impolite life here in the Bay State but I still say Bush overreacted to Webb's remark. I don't think either one of them acted politely but as I said earlier I give the benefit of the doubt to a Father with a son in Iraq. Webb most certainly could have handled the exchange better but I can at least understand why the topic may be a touchy one for him to discuss. IMO, Bush should have been able to figure this out too and a) not even asked about the man's son or b) moved on to another topic after it was clear Webb was offended by the inquiry.

--

Mucho gusto me llamo Bradley... -B. Nowell

( | parent )
actually it would have been impolite not to ask about his (#15269)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:48pm

son

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
It wasn't a party ... (#15308)
by Blue Neponset on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 6:53pm

...it was a business function, and at a business function you don't ask questions that are personal in nature. Maybe you would ask a business acquaintence you had never spoke to before about his son in Iraq but my guess is you would be the exception rather than the rule.

--

Mucho gusto me llamo Bradley... -B. Nowell

( | parent )
If I had never spoken to him before, he wouldn't be an (#15313)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 7:00pm

acquaintence. But if I was running an offshore operation and there were acquaintences who had children working in the offshore operation, damn straight I would ask, not to would be impolite.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
That isn't polite, it's condescending (#15321)
by Blue Neponset on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 7:14pm

You don't ask your employee's parents how their child feels about his employment.

--

Mucho gusto me llamo Bradley... -B. Nowell

( | parent )
First, for cripes sake, a Lieutenant in the Marines - or any (#15361)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 9:43pm

Marine -- isn't a child. Second, asking about relatives in service is quite common (at least in parts of the country where most everyone has a relative serving). Third, Like it or not, Bush was however briefly a Fighter Jock and can speak "service," a language somewhat different than that of the business world.

He asked a common and fair question; Webb took umbrage; Bush took umbrage at Webb taking umbrage when he was trying to be or acting concerned and non-political. Just that simple.

I go to square one -- if Webb feels that strongly, he knew the possiblity of talking to Bush was there, even though he planned to avoid and did avoid the receiving line. For him to go anyway put the onus to behave on himself. I think he politicized what wasn't meant as a political question and he got zapped for it. Sounds fair to me.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Marine or not, we are all somoene's child (#15392)
by Blue Neponset on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:30pm

He asked a common and fair question

I think that is where we disagree. In the circles I run in it would not be common or fair to ask a person you have never met about his son's well being. It would be considered too familiar and/or disingenuous.

Maybe it is a difference in where we are from because I truly would never think to ask a stranger about his family. It just would not go over too well here.

Off topic but...I thought Jimmy Webb was a Lance Corporal.

--

Mucho gusto me llamo Bradley... -B. Nowell

( | parent )
Where are you from? (#15396)
by Bernard Guerrero on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:37pm

Serious question. I'm in the NY metro area. While I can't imagine asking a complete stranger such a question, I can easily imagine doing so at a gathering where I have some knowledge of the participants.

--

"I'm from the Guerreros, and I'm here to help...sort of."

- My way of joking is to tell the truth. It is the funniest joke in the world.- George Bernard Shaw

( | parent )
Boston (#15401)
by Blue Neponset on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:51pm

If I had never talked to someone before the first question I asked him would not be about his son no matter how much knowledge I had of that person. Maybe that is just me and it has nothing to do with regionality but I can't imagine a scenario where I would be comfortable doing that.

--

Mucho gusto me llamo Bradley... -B. Nowell

( | parent )
Boston proper or one of the burbs? (#15406)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:55pm

:)

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
This DC Mom volunteered that (#15398)
by Bill White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:43pm

her sons were in Iraq. From a Salon piece about Robert Gates:

At no point during the day did any senator ask Gates if he saw the ironic parallels between his former life as an opponent of the Vietnam War and his coming task of ending the Iraq war. No one asked him to recount May 9, 1970, when Gates, then a CIA analyst of the Soviet Union, joined roughly 100,000 other antiwar protesters to march on the National Mall in objection to Nixon's incursion into Cambodia.

But Gates still tried to make it clear that he knew why he was taking the job. "The pressures of this hearing are nothing compared to the pressures I got from the woman who came over to me at the hotel while I was having dinner the other night, seated by myself," he said. "She said, 'I have two sons in Iraq. For God's sake, bring them home safe. And we'll be praying for you.' Now that's real pressure.

Gates, it appears, did not find the woman's comments at all rude or inappropriate. He sees it as one aspect of his mission, balanced with other aspects, of course.
If a complete stranger can walk up to Robert Gates, as SecDef nominee and ask that her sons come home, what did Webb do wrong?

Link:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/12/06/gates_hearing/

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( | parent )
I suggest you not go to far down that line with the average (#15395)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:36pm

19 or 20 year old paratrooper or Marine...

Different Circles have different rules. In government, particularly in the services where moving is a way of life and change is constant and people will get killed or wounded on you, it's pretty common to not waste a lot of time on all the formalities of the academic and corporate worlds.

He may be, no idea what his rank is -- someone somewhere on this or a recent thread said LT so I just stuck it in there. Heh, if he is, that'll explain a couple of things.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Now That's Fairly Sensible, Seriously (#15367)
by Harley on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 9:51pm

Until you get to the part about Bush having the right/ability to speak "service."

That's fanboy crazytalk. Room service, maybe. But "service"? C'mon.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

( | parent )
Not really. You mean there isn't a set of of wrods with (#15382)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:16pm

transmuted meaning, acronyms and other Jargon and insider talk in the movie biz? A list of little known dos and don'ts...

Every profession has it's quirks and social mores and rules.

If you meant that as a generic Bush slam, doesn't work. whether you and others like it or not the guy was on full time 24/7 active duty in the Air force for over two years to complete flight school and he did complete it. Then he flew F102s -- not a pilot friendly airplane at all -- for another two years and did what he was supposed to. Only in the last two years of his nominal six year obligation did he sluff.

Bottom line is he's got more service time than most and not that much less than Webb who did just his five year obligated tour and got out. Yeah, Webb went to VN but so did a lot of people. There were also a lot more besides Bush that didn't go.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
you ask how they are doing (#15327)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 7:38pm

it isn't condescending, it shows concern.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Don't Tell Them How To. . . (#15331)
by M Scott Eiland on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 7:50pm

. . .grieve--er, behave in polite society, Timmy--just be impressed that after only four years they've figured out that engaging in this kind of behavior and public enabling of such behavior results in less painful consequences when done just *after* an election rather than just before one.

--

( | parent )
Ah, go Cheney yourself. -nt- (#15336)
by Kimmitt on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 8:22pm

.

--

"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes

( | parent )
That's The Ticket! (#15341)
by M Scott Eiland on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 8:34pm

The yellow flag is out--good time to get all of this in. Odds are that no one will remember any of this come 2008. Honest.

--

( | parent )
Agreed (#15351)
by Harley on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 9:11pm

Including, of course, the Webb Retort.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

( | parent )
We can agree on that... (#15359)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 9:34pm

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
those fellow Yankees certainly ain't from New England (#15222)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:37pm

so where are they from?

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Hurrah! (#15097)
by Sulla on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 8:29am

Move over Stephen Colbert, the ‘speaking truth to power’ crowd has a new hero. Well, at least they’ve moved past the realm of entertainers.

--

"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta

( )
C'mon, Webb's a writer - and an angry one at that. (#15267)
by tomsyl on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:44pm

Well, at least they’ve moved past the realm of entertainers.

--

My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken

( | parent )
You are correct sir (#15490)
by Sulla on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 10:17am

my hope that they’d finally become more serious blinded me to this.

--

"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta

( | parent )
If this becomes SOP (#15085)
by luisalegria on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:13am

Mr. Higgins,

Then we might as well build bunkers all over Washington and start open warfare. There will be no politics going on any longer.

( )
Oh please (#15417)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:20pm

you think Ann Coulter is funny but this is going to start a political war? Get the smelling salts.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
Coulter isn't a Senator n/t (#15448)
by luisalegria on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 12:46am

,,,

( | parent )
You're right, she's far more famous and widely read (#15453)
by HankP on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 1:21am

live by the sword, die by the sword. Or in this case, more like the butter knife.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
How many bunkers did you build (#15405)
by Username on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:55pm

when the VP dropped a bomb on a senator?

( | parent )
Very Impressive (#15030)
by M Scott Eiland on Mon, 12/04/2006 - 11:50pm

Apparently, a polite response to a polite question is too much for Virginia's new golden boy and his fan base.

On the bright side, Jane Hamsher and the rest of the lunatic fringe apparently managed to elect a punk to represent their values in Congress after all--congratulations are apparently in order.

--

( )
Very Hypocritical (#15145)
by Harley on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:07pm

When Cheney tells a Senator to go, well, Cheney himself, it's evidence of a manly bent toward direct and honest expression. Or at the least? It's funny.

Now? I guess not so much.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

( | parent )
I missed that in the VP debate (#15225)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:39pm

do you have a link or something?

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Do you have a copy of the tacitus.org archives? (#15404)
by Username on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:54pm

( | parent )
You know, I was all offended there for a moment. (#15038)
by Kimmitt on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 12:59am

Then I got over it.

I sincerely hope that no one makes light of your deployed child's safety after a near-miss, and especially that the person doing so not be directly in his chain of command.

--

"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes

( | parent )
As one of the few here who probably have had a deployed (#15194)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:02pm

"child" -- though my First Sergeant and Webb's Lieutenant probably would object strenuously to the child bit -- I woildn't consider a casual polite question "making light."

Unless I was looking for a fight...

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Sorry, my Emily Post is a little rusty... (#15043)
by Soothsayer on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:10am

Since when is a asking about a family member's welfare considered rude? I seem to recall a time when human compassion transcending party politics was something to be applauded, not derided.

--

"In large states public education will always be mediocre, for the same reason that in large kitchens the cooking is usually bad."~Nietzsche

( | parent )
I Remember. . . (#15045)
by M Scott Eiland on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:15am

. . .many a time at our old digs at tacitus.org when someone having a rough time would receive politely worded condolences from someone with whom they were often engaged at harsh political rhetoric with. Apparently, the appropriate response was really to take those words and throw them back in the well-wisher's face accompanied with stale political cliches. What fools we were. Thank goodness we have Jim The Boor to show us the true way.

--

( | parent )
Wrong again (#15053)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:32am

Bush wasn't offering condolences, he was asking a personal question. Bush showed himself to be an ass when he pushed Webb on it.

But this is pointless. If he did anything other than effusively shower praise on Bush, you would clutch your hanky and get the vapors at the impoliteness of it all. I wonder what your reaction would be if Webb used some of the more interesting names that you tend to use in your posts here?

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
You Mean. . . (#15058)
by M Scott Eiland on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:36am

. . .if I had, say, reacted to a polite question from Bill Clinton about my well-being or the well-being of a friend or family member with a snotty comeback? I would have been acting like a jackass--much as Webb and his fanboys are now.

--

( | parent )
Once again (#15068)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:52am

saying that he wants his son home is not being a jackass. See #15065.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
This is one of yopur comments not to be taken seriously, right? (#15195)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:03pm

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
And Once Again With Interest (#15072)
by M Scott Eiland on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:57am

Saying that he wants the troops home isn't the same as saying you'd like your son home--and implying that it is either naive or dishonest.

--

( | parent )
Maybe that's it... (#15048)
by Soothsayer on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:21am

...as relative nobodies, it's assumed that we're human beings, but the President isn't supposed to be a human being, so an act which you and I would consider quite courteous is actually a major insult.

Double standards are so hard to keep track of...

--

"In large states public education will always be mediocre, for the same reason that in large kitchens the cooking is usually bad."~Nietzsche

( | parent )
Bzzzzzt! (#15036)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 12:51am

Sorry, wrong answer. When Bush said "that's not what I asked you", that was not polite in the least bit and he deserved what he got. Actually, he deserved quite a bit more, but I credit Webb with not telling him it was none of his ^%&&% business.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
what answer list are you using??? (#15039)
by Soothsayer on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:00am

How is responding to a polite question with a partisan comment count as civility? It was a rude act, which doesn't excuse the President for responding rudely, but still.

The correct answer is: He's ____. Thanks for asking.

--

"In large states public education will always be mediocre, for the same reason that in large kitchens the cooking is usually bad."~Nietzsche

( | parent )
No, the correct answer is (#15051)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:26am

"He's not doing well at all, because he's serving under the worst Commander in Chief in living memory. He's just hoping he can make it the next two years until someone competent takes charge."

FYI, when you ask someone you don't know a personal question, you accept their answer, you don't push them on it. When Webb said he wanted his son home, Bush (had he had a gracious bone in his body) could have said something like "I know, so do I" or "We all do" or something similarly neutral. Saying "That's not what I asked you" is the sign of a d%$k, which of course is what Bush is, as any reasoning being understands at this point.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
Ah, the all knowing judge of what constitutes a reasoning being. (#15199)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:08pm

Bush could've done what you suggest; I might have if I was in a good mood. If, OTOH, I felt hostile vibes coming across with the other guys answer, I might -- probably would've -- come back just like Bush. Or worse...

Maybe it's a Southern thing... :)

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
OT question (#15064)
by Soothsayer on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:48am

Did I miss a change in the posting rules? Somehow I don't think that changing u's for v's and i's for !'s does much to clean up the language.

--

"In large states public education will always be mediocre, for the same reason that in large kitchens the cooking is usually bad."~Nietzsche

( | parent )
Edited - better? nt (#15084)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:04am

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
No it isn't! (#15086)
by Elagabalus on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:19am

I just had to scrub a perfectly good joke about d!ck being an official word of the !kung bushmen!

--

I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine

( | parent )
I just can't make anyone happy, can I? nt (#15088)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:26am

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
The question was gracious... (#15061)
by Soothsayer on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:43am

...and the answer was partisan and rude. There is a time for politics and a time for courtesy, and Webb seems to have forgotten his watch. I'm not defending Bush's rudeness in pushing the question, but at least he wasn't the first to display boorish behavior. This is not what should be expected from an elected official.

--

"In large states public education will always be mediocre, for the same reason that in large kitchens the cooking is usually bad."~Nietzsche

( | parent )
We'll have to disagree (#15065)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:48am

my experience is that when you ask a personal question of someone you don't know, be prepared for all kinds of answers, some of which you won't want to hear. Knowing that his son is serving in combat, and that Webb opposes the war, the question was not gracious.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
Fair enough (#15066)
by Soothsayer on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:51am

Although that I think that that knowing that his son is serving in combat and that Webb opposes the war, and still asking about his welfare regardless of political views, is doubly gracious.

--

"In large states public education will always be mediocre, for the same reason that in large kitchens the cooking is usually bad."~Nietzsche

( | parent )
And I don't think (#15069)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:53am

that saying he wants his son home makes Webb a boor.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
No, he said he wants the troops home (#15074)
by Soothsayer on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 2:06am

He made a political statement in response to a personal question, plain and simple.

--

"In large states public education will always be mediocre, for the same reason that in large kitchens the cooking is usually bad."~Nietzsche

( | parent )
For both of you (#15081)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:01am

saying he wants the troops home is not being a boor. Saying something about Bush's daughters would have been rude. There's a difference. Only someone with a massive inferiority complex (or a guilty conscience) would take that statement as a personal attack.

What shrinking violets Republicans have become! Politicians talking about politics is boorishness! It's almost as if telling Bush an opinion he doesn't want to hear is the height of arrogance and rudeness - oh, that's right, apparently it is. He'll be hearing a lot of stuff he doesn't want to hear for at least the next two years, so he'd better start getting used to it.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
what! (#15273)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 5:01pm

just the next two years?

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
At last we get to the heart of it - sure took you long enough. (#15270)
by tomsyl on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 4:54pm

He'll be hearing a lot of stuff he doesn't want to hear for at least the next two years, so he'd better start getting used to it.

IOW, we've got some serious dumping to do on Bush and only two years to do it in, so screw that politeness and civility BS.

--

My views on most things would jibe with most Americans'. A. Franken

( | parent )
No, it means when he does the passive aggressive bit (#15342)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 8:36pm

he doesn't get a free pass anymore.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
Not What He Said (#15070)
by M Scott Eiland on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:55am

And you know it.

--

( | parent )
*snicker* (#15055)
by M Scott Eiland on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:34am

"The foregoing has been an excerpt from Manners As Taught By Daily Kos, a bestseller among consumers of fine tinfoil everywhere."

--

( | parent )
Content zero! I knew you'd get there! nt (#15057)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:36am

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
Just Mirroring The Content I Was Responding To -nt- (#15059)
by M Scott Eiland on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:37am

--

( | parent )
Wrong again (#15062)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:44am

you missed the part about not pushing strangers on personal questions.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
No, Just Describing It (#15063)
by M Scott Eiland on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:47am

Somehow, I doubt that if, say, Bill Clinton had--thanks to an attentive staff--asked a foreign dignitary about the well-being of a family member and had been met with a rude dismissal that Webb's fanboys here and elsewhere would be defending the conduct.

--

( | parent )
You're right (#15082)
by HankP on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:03am

most Democrats would consider it too trivial to comment upon. It would almost seem obsessive.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
Spplurk. There goes another keyboard full of coffee... (#15202)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:10pm

You kidder, you...

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
It's not partisan to want your kid out of danger. (#15041)
by Kimmitt on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:08am

It's absurdity -- false outrage -- to pretend otherwise.

--

"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes

( | parent )
No it is not. However, given that Webb and I share a war (#15205)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:12pm

and kids who've been in this one, it's my considered opinion that he's either overreacting or overacting. Time will tell which it is.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Swing and a miss... (#15044)
by Soothsayer on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 1:15am

It's partisan to answer a simple question concerning a person's welfare with a political statement.

--

"In large states public education will always be mediocre, for the same reason that in large kitchens the cooking is usually bad."~Nietzsche

( | parent )
Wrong again (#15080)
by Username on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 2:52am

"a simple question"? More like a poke in Webb's eye. Here's the guy who's gotten Webb's son stuck in a dangerous and pointless war, asking Webb how his kid is doing while his own children are getting sloshed somewhere.

( | parent )
Nobody made Webb's kid go in the Corps. Nobody. (#15207)
by Ken White on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 3:15pm

Lotsa folks have kids there or who've been there; lots of others have kids who haven't -- and they have no bearing on those who volunteered.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
He has to obey orders, (#15402)
by Username on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:51pm

just like you have to obey the law. Doesn't mean he has to like it or that said orders or laws are right.

( | parent )
He volunteered to obey orders, he didn't have to do that. I (#15436)
by Ken White on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 12:10am

doubt anyone in Iraq likes it. Liking it isn't an issue.

Webb's son was not forced to join the Marines, his Dad may well have objected. Either way, he joined -- obeying orders and going places you'd rather not be goes with the territory.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Anyone who moves to this country (#15438)
by Username on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 12:12am

also volunteers to follow its laws. "Liking it isn't an issue," etc.

( | parent )
That has nothing to do with the fact that Mr. Webb did not have (#15442)
by Ken White on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 12:16am

to join the Marines, no one made him do that; he wanted to do it and he did it -- he knew what he was getting into and made a conscious choice just as anyone moving here makes a choice.

Once one make such a choice, one lives with it.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
enlistment does not equal lobotomy (#15456)
by Username on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 2:28am

Once you join you have to take their orders, just as once you immigrate you have to follow their laws. Doesn't make every order or every law correct; doesn't mean that you can't disagree with the rulers and their rulings while still following the rules.

( | parent )
We're talking past each other. I agree with what you say, I am (#15539)
by Ken White on Wed, 12/06/2006 - 1:12pm

not suggesting that every order or being in in Iraq is correct.

No, enlistment does not equal lobotomy and as the majority of enlistees are ahead of their non-enlisting peers in most measurements of capability and performance, that's quite obvious. But enlistment is totally voluntary. If one enlist while there's a war on, one knows that the possiblity of going to that war is quite high.

What I am saying is that Webb joined the Marines for his own reasons with full knowledge that he'd have to obey orders and probably go to Iraq or somewhere else he might not want to be. IOW, he was not forced to be in Iraq; he was not forced to follow 'incorrect' orders, he could've avoided both those by NOT joining the Marines.

He obviously did not want to avoid it.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
orders? (#15408)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 10:58pm

???????

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
? (#15428)
by Username on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:36pm

???????

( | parent )
yep ? (#15430)
by Timmy on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:38pm

?????????

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
eh ? (#15431)
by Username on Tue, 12/05/2006 - 11:38pm

??????????

( | parent )
Support The Forvm

Powell's Books

Amazon.com

Help support the Forvm by buying items through our links. All proceeds go to defraying our hosting costs.

Links

Conservative
Liberal
Moderate/Mixed/Non-Partisan
Non-Political/Reference

Related Sites -

Polisci Applied (Aaron)
Intrepid Liberal Journal (Intrepid Liberal)
Obsidian Wings (Bird Dog)
Open Hand/Open Eye (locutas)
Red State (Bird Dog)
Swords Crossed (brendanm98)
Wagster Speaks (Wagster)
WatchingAmerica (BlaiseP)
The Social Pathologist (TSP)

Foreign Affairs -

Abu Aardvark
'Aqoul
American Footprints
Council on Foreign Relations
CSIS
Democracy Arsenal
Intel Dump
The Fourth Rail
War and Piece

Politics -

Ace of Spades HQ
Andrew Sullivan
Balloon Juice
Belgravia Dispatch
Captain's Quarters
Crooked Timber
Curmudgeonly & Skeptical
Daily Kos
Democracy Arsenal
Eschaton
Firedoglake
Glenn Greenwald
Global Guerrillas
Hugh Hewitt
Instapundit
Jawa Report
Lawyers, Guns and Money
Liberals Against Terror
Matt Yglesias
Michael J. Totten
Michelle Malkin
Moon of Alabama
New America
OxBlog
Patterico
Political Animal
Political Wire
Publius Pundit
QandO
Reality Based Community
Talking Points Memo
The Agitator
The Belmont Club
The Corner
Truman Project
Winds of Change.net

War -

Counterterrorism Blog
Iraq the Model
Jihad Watch
Small Wars Journal Blog

Economics and Business -

Angry Bear
Brad DeLong
Daniel Drezner
Mahalanobis
Marginal Revolution
Roubini Global Economics
The Big Picture

Science and Tech -

Bad Astronomy
New Scientist
Real Climate
Science Blogs
Scientific American
The Panda's Thumb

Legal -

Balkinization
Conglomerate
Ideoblog
Jurisdynamics
Law and Letters
Overlawyered
ProfessorBainbridge
ScotusBlog
Talk Left
The Becker-Posner Blog
Volokh Conspiracy

Sports -

Baseball Crank
Baseball Musings
Baseball Reference.com
ESPN.com
NFL.com
Only Baseball Matters
The Sports Economist

Books, Film and Music -

Amazon.com
Internet Movie Database
All Music Guide

News and Aggregators -

Asia Times
Boingboing
CNN
Digg
English Russia
Fark
Los Angeles Times
Memeorandum
MSNBC
Politico
Poynteronline
Slashdot
The New York Times
The Washington Post

References -

Wikipedia
Your Dictionary