Religion, Public Policy, and the VP debate

Here's what the debating VP candidates had to say about their religious views informing their positions on abortion: 

 

MS. RADDATZ: ... I would like to ask you both to tell me what role your religion has played in your own personal views on abortion. ...

 

REP. RYAN: I don't see how a person can separate their public life from their private life or from their faith. Our faith informs us in everything we do. My faith informs me about how to take care of the vulnerable, about how to make sure that people have a chance in life.

 

Now, you want to ask basically why I'm pro-life? It's not simply because of my Catholic faith. That's a factor, of course, but it's also because of reason and science ...

 

Now, I understand this is a difficult issue. And I respect people who don't agree with me on this. But the policy of a Romney administration will be to oppose abortion with the exceptions for rape, incest and life of the mother.

 

...

 

VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN: My religion defines who I am. And I've been a practicing Catholic my whole life. And it has particularly informed my social doctrine. Catholic social doctrine talks about taking care of those who — who can't take care of themselves, people who need help.

 

 

With regard to — with regard to abortion, I accept my church's position on abortion as a — what we call de fide (doctrine ?). Life begins at conception. That's the church's judgment. I accept it in my personal life.

 

But I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews and — I just refuse to impose that on others, unlike my friend here, the congressman.

 

==

 

I'd like to hear what you all think of the exchange. I don't know whether I expect religious people to absolutely remove their religious background beliefs from influencing their views on public policy.  

 

One argument for a no-influence/pro-Biden view might look like this: In a pluralistic society with a secular government, voters/representatives should be expected to give a justification for their public policy views whose acceptance doesn't require adopting assumptions peculiar to a particular religious tradition. This is especially so for laws that restrict the liberties of others, including many who don't accept those religious assumptions.

 

One argument for a pro-influence/Ryan view might be: Religion has shaped society's moral views throughout history, the present day included, and our moral views in turn influence our judgments on laws and policy. It's both unobtainable in practice and undesirable as an ideal to entirely divorce the two. The question in particular of whether potentially millions of innocent lives belong to the human community and therefore deserve protection is the kind of public policy that religious sensibilities should inform.

 

Hopefully, that's a convo starter and I'm interested to hear thoughts in the comments.

 

Finally, if you're interested, here's an interesting speech by Mario Cuomo, a practicing Catholic governor at the time, given to NOtre Dame University re: his religious beliefs and being pro-choice.

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This is another...

(#293113)
Bird Dog's picture

...Bright Shiny Distraction. Romney has already said that he would not spearhead legislation re abortion, so what this really is about is a philosophical discussion of minimal relevance. Roe v. Wade is the law of the land. If by some quirk that Supreme Court changes its make-up and hears a case that challenges Roe v. Wade and overturns it, 46 states will still keep abortion legal.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

It's probably not that Shiny

(#293116)
brutusettu's picture

There's probably a decent sized minority of Romney supporters that have criminalizing all forms abortions as their biggest issue by far, and they think Romney is going to help make that happen.

 

 

More importantly states have starting rushing the backdoor to gut Roe v Wade, it's basically legal to make an abortion cost $10,000,000, or make sure abortions can effectively only legally be done at 1 or 2 places and make anyone travel twice or book a hotel to schedule one.

 

It's not far from getting pretty close to my legal right to have a shot at moving the Balitmore Ravens to Indianapolis. 

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

The party of Lincoln

(#293119)

..has become the party of States Rights.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

That's fine

(#293126)

I wasn't saying this was crucial to the election. I think it's interesting in its own right.

 

I deny that SCOTUS overturning Roe wouldn't be important. And I'll just note that, like Biden and Ryan, all of the justices currently willing to do so are Roman Catholic.

Perhaps.

(#293127)
aireachail's picture

But the candidates didn't seem to treat it that way.

 

One or both could have chosen to answer just as you did. But they didn't.

 

 

What you'd prefer to not consider

(#293165)

Is not necessarily a distraction. I'll just outsource this to someone who might actually get pregnant. As for your 46 states number, that's just nonsense, and for that I'll cite a source you're often fond of citing.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Nope, that's not it

(#293475)
Bird Dog's picture

I've considered it and concluded that it's a distraction. The first three points that Ezra brings up address the margins around the issue. With the fourth, Supreme Court nominations, my improbable scenario applies. As for Factcheck.org, they agree with me, so it's not nonsense. At all. Factcheck.org concluded that only four states would make abortion illegal if it were overturned.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

It is Easy for Anyone Without Ovaries....

(#293476)

...to consider reproductive rights for women a distraction...its a distraction to you. Thanks, you are entitled to your opinion...women with their futures, their health, the welfare of their children they already have at stake might resent your rather cavalier finding of their concerns a distraction.

 

As to the factcheck cite you reference, could I please have the actual cite so that I may independently verify what is said...your credibility has suffered some.

 

So...Trust, but Verify...if you get what I mean.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

Lame argument

(#293488)
Bird Dog's picture

You don't have ovaries, Traveller, therefore you aren't qualified to have an opinion on the subject, or even to discuss it for that matter. That's what you're saying to me.

BTW, the reality is that women are highly divided on the subject.

As for factcheck.org, Wags provided the link.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

A more general comment

(#293124)
mmghosh's picture

is that public policy legislation should have nothing to do with religion.  The UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a better indicator on the consensus of enlightened thought than pandering to religions. 

 

When you do pander you get the ridiculous situation we have here, where you need to profess the appropriate religion to be able to practice Islam sanctioned polygamy, or polyandry.  And the consequent ridiculous situation of felicitously changing your religion when the whim is upon you to marry often.  And thereby you arrive at a situation where people can do pretty much whatever you want provided you belong to a group.  One can even walk around naked and exposed if one wishes, even in a very large cosmopolitan city, as I noted with some surprise in a procession from my study window yesterday.

 

The less said about absurd legislation about restrictions on animal slaughter, food items and so forth, the better.

I aqgree with you of course

(#293239)

but this

 

where people can do pretty much whatever you want

 

sounds pretty good to me. Let anyone marry whoever and walking around naked harms no one.

Civilised people don't walk about naked

(#293240)
mmghosh's picture

clothes have developed for a reason.  And no, Western nudist beaches don't count.

Why Manish!

(#293255)

I believe your petticoats are showing!

We've got one poster here

(#293279)

who claims open dangle is dangerous to furniture, etc.  At least for him.

Hah! The dangers of open dangle depend on temperature.

(#293310)

If I'm cold, wet and angry there's more of a dimple than a dangle so danger is pretty much minimized.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Religion can't be completely removed

(#293155)
stinerman's picture

It is bound up with western culture in a way that the two can't be separated. 

 

If you think abortion is wrong and that informs your beliefs, that's fine by me...so long as you can justify it without reference to God.  I think it's pretty darn easy to justify a pro-life stance w/o reference to a creator, and I accept a consistent, non-theistic position on the subject.  I don't accept t "Jeebus said so, so it should be the law".

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

The distinction I've heard Obama make

(#293311)

Which I think is legitimate, is that if religion affects your views, fine. That's natural. But when you're arguing in the public square, use secular arguments that don't depend on faith... because that faith may not be shared, and we're a pluralistic society. I don't think that necessarily clashes with Ryan's views, at least not as they were expressed in the debate.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

It's Not A Terribly Useful Distinction In Any Event

(#293312)
M Scott Eiland's picture

I've known atheists who were pro-life, and religious people who are pro choice. Since the issue circulates around issues like "what is a human being?" and "do other rights trump whatever rights a human embryo/first trimester fetus/second trimester fetus/third trimester fetus might have?", the arguments are ultimately the same regardless of whether one believes there is an actively interested Supreme Being or Beings backing the arguments up. Ultimately, screaming "quit dragging God into it!" is a way of avoiding the hard arguments that would otherwise be rather disturbing to many liberals (who, after all, tend to pride themselves on being defenders of the weak and/or utterly helpless. . .and what is more helpless than an unborn fetus?).

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

What's more helpless?

(#293314)

Perhaps the mother of that unborn fetus, depending on which state she resides in.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Thanks For Passing On The NARAL Boilerplate

(#293360)
M Scott Eiland's picture

It certainly explains why abortion rights are losing support in this country, much to my dismay.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Empathy for the fetus

(#293363)

but not the mother, got it!

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Posting Rules -nt-

(#293365)
M Scott Eiland's picture

.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Calling a Posting Rules Violation on..."Posting Rules..."

(#293478)

...it seems to me that someone wanting to call for a PRV, has the duty to at least explain why and what is the Posting Rule Violation.

 

Since I myself have called one, here is my reasoning:

 

Throwing up two words without more has no explanatory value whatsoever.

 

It stops the flow of whatever conversation there was...

 

It forces readers to wander back up thread and try to decipher where and what the violation might be...and frequently with wrong results...how can we read the mind of the person calling the PRV...maybe we get it right, maybe not.

 

To force all readers to go through this exercise is Unfair.

 

Ultimately, of course, "Posting Rule," Posts are just lazy.

 

If a person wants to charge a crime, it would seem sensible that person points out who committed the crime, when, and the nature of the crime...the PRV itself...what is the Violation and equally important Why it is Violation, what is the reasoning behind the Charge being made.

 

I would appreciate the Moderators taking this matter under consideration.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

If The Troika Wants To Impose Such A Rule, I'll Follow It

(#293480)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Until then, I'm going to keep it simple, and your objection is in opposition to abundant precedent, meaning that even if the moderators wanted to impose such a rule, it would be inappropriate to call a PRV for something that had been done repeatedly with no objection other than the PRV offenders themselves whining about being called on it. As for my objection, it is obvious to anyone who reads the comment it is appended to--suggesting that I have no empathy for women is a direct, obvious insult.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

It's a rough life

(#293545)
stinerman's picture

Being a mod.

 

At the moment, I am bound by the Posting Rules as best I understand them.  As there is no rule stating that someone must even point out something as a PRV, there can also be no rule to require a reason given.

 

Anyone can post a poll if they choose.  I would be happy to add to the rules based on a majority vote of a poll (and assuming one mod would agree).  Really, MSE is right on that we three kings can do whatever we want (within reason).  I simply would refuse to go along with anything that wasn't backed by a majority vote here.

 

For the record, I didn't see anything PRV-worthy and given that neither of my kinsmen have said anything about it either, I have a feeling it's going to stay that way.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

Fair Enough

(#293551)
M Scott Eiland's picture

However, I do consider the suggestion that I lack empathy for women to be a direct insult, so I will continue to renew my objections if said insult is repeated, at least until all three moderators have formally stated their positions on the subject (since any moderator can issue a yellow card). I will renew my objections after the next troika election should there be a fresh panel.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Your comment lacked empathy

(#293552)

as for you personally, I neither know nor give a flying f**k.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

No, the arguments are not the same

(#293318)

There are people that reference the bible when talking about how gay marriage is wrong. And there are people that at least try to make an argument that appeals to reason. I don't think that's a sham distinction.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Not much of a distinction

(#293327)

Not much practical difference between saying "killing is wrong" and  "the Bible says killing is wrong".  In either case it's really just a way of saying it's a basic principle that can't be derived from something else;  some people are comfortable saying that,  others feel like they need to call in authority at that point. 

 

People oppose gay marriage because they think it's icky,  the bible part is just calling in backup.  There may still be a few people out there that actually derive their ethics from their religion,  but I suspect that most of time the arrow runs the other way - people decide what they believe on instinct and then pick and choose scripture to justify it.

Not killing is a basic principle?

(#293340)

Not necessarily. You can trace not killing back to a higher-level utilitarian principle. Heck, and you could trace a ban on gay marriage to utilitarian principles... I wouldn't buy it, but you could.

 

It's when the dead end is Leviticus where the problem starts, and believers should make more of an effort to take the argument to a place where everyone can understand and share.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

"Basic principle" is a misnomer.

(#293359)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

Arbitrary principle.  Which doesn't mean I don't agree with you on a bunch of them, but let's not assign the term "basic" to something that is really history/path-dependent.

Arbitrary Principle?

(#293362)

How about "contingent" instead, since, if we're getting pedantic, is more or less what your qualifier means ("something that is really history/path-dependent."). An arbitrary principle would be free of that dependency.

I think this is clearly right. Not only are medical ethics laws

(#293337)

necessary, they're also grounded in science as well as in practical, secular morality. It's perfectly reasonable to believe something like "life begins at conception," and to strike a balance between that view and the practical observation that legal personhood does not, without falling back in either case on religious doctrine.

 

Of course, the Catholic view that life begins at conception and so early term abortion, hell, even coitus interruptus are equivalent to murder is pure religious doctrine with no parallel scientific or secular thought. It's based entirely on a eucharistic, rather than practical, notion of what "life" is. Imposing that or a similar view by law in this country would be a prima facie violation of the 1st Am.

M Aurelius was probably right.