Democracy and equality are not enough

Two interesting comments recently:  one claiming that banning gay marriage denies equal protection under the law, and another asking why lack of judicial review in a parliamentary democracy is abhorrent.

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Sometimes bad arguments are made in favor of good policies, and the equal protection argument is one of those.  Let me first point out that no state that I am aware of has a law that says "Heterosexuals may marry, but homosexuals may not". What those laws say is that everyone,  straight and gay alike, is equally prohibited from marrying someone of the same sex.  And in fact, where gay marriage is banned, it's not that uncommon for homosexuals to marry someone of the opposite sex, to gain various financial, practical, and social benefits, and to do so perfectly legally.

Of course the ban has more negative impact on gays than on straights. But all laws affect some people more than others. Consider the following statement:

Any law that prohibits X denies 14th Amendment equal protection to people who want to do X.
 

That's absurd on its face. X could be anything from rape to bank robbery. At this point maybe you're getting angry that I'm comparing violent, non-consensual acts with peaceful, consensual ones.  You're completely correct that there's no comparison - but the difference has nothing to do with equality or lack thereof.  You might also point out that homosexuality is something inherent to a person, like their race. True again: a law that banned simply being homosexual would violate the 14th Amendment. But a law that merely bans some things gays might happen to want to do more than straights does not. That's why the SC, in Lawrence v Texas,  overturned a sodomy law based on liberty and due process grounds rather than equal protection. 

The real reason gays should be allowed to marry each other is because (a) there's no decent reason to disallow it, and (b) it's none of the government's business to regulate consensual relations among adults. Unfortunately those two principles aren't explicitly written into our Constitution, and thus had to be constructed by judges.

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Which brings me to the second part about parliamentary democracy.  Most people realize that absolutely unlimited democracy isn't a great idea - the old joke about two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.  The error among some otherwise decent people on the left is thinking that coupling two principles,  democracy + equality,  solves that problem.  I believe those two principles aren't sufficient, for the reason given above.  You need democracy + equality + limits.

Stinerman made a reference to using violence to solve political differences, and got called on it.  Democracy depends on people peacefully , if not happily, accepting the results of elections, the laws passed by elected legislatures, and the lawful attempts of others like FRC to influence elections and legislation. If you want elections to go down peacefully, people have to have confidence that their lives, and the things that make their lives worthwhile, are not at stake. And that means that certain issues need to be taken outside the reach of democracy.  I don't know exactly what needs to be on that list, but I do know the list needs to be getting longer rather than shorter. 

Judicial review isn't the only way to keep the limits in place, and it's not always effective, but it's better than nothing. Of course the best protection is having legislators, and an electorate, sincerely committed to maintaining the limits agreed upon when the democracy was formed.  Sad to say, we lost that commitment some time ago. 

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We have, in our Constitution, Directive Principles

(#288032)
mmghosh's picture

that allow for all manner of judicial activism.

 

I'm much more in favour of the legislative powers being supreme.  After all, its the people who make up the nation.  Limits, if any, should be via supermajorities for extreme change.

Supermajorities are

(#288040)

a reasonable approach if it's clearly laid out what constitutes an extreme change.  No offense intended, but I've met some of your countrymen who seem to think eliminating the entire Muslim population would count as a minor administrative matter.

 

I assume your judges are somehow selected by elected officials.  It's not like they're hereditary or mystically appear Dalai Lama style.  So it's just one additional layer of indirection.   In any case, I have a hard time seeing US congressmen as representing the "people".  Maybe it's just bitterness at being on the losing side of every single election for the last 30+ years, but based on the ratings they earn in polls I think I'm not alone.

????

(#288044)
HankP's picture

I'd like to know what and/or who you're voting for that you've been on the losing side of every single election for the past 30 years.

I blame it all on the Internet

It's Not *That* Unusual

(#288045)
M Scott Eiland's picture

How about a Republican living in Washington DC? Even in the years Republicans win the White House, DC goes Democratic by at least 80%-20%.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Come on Hank

(#288047)

I think you can guess who I vote for.

Libertarian?

(#288056)
HankP's picture

I've never spent time in Texas so I don't know who runs for office down there.

I blame it all on the Internet

Yes

(#288064)

To be completely honest, in 1984, we were kicked off the ballot, so it came down to Mondale vs Reagan and I'm ashamed to say I picked the latter even though I already knew his small government talk was BS.  Nevertheless,  I think you'll agree that I lost,  and lost bad.

I'm surprised

(#288078)
HankP's picture

I would think libertarians would do pretty well down there, at least for state and local positions.

 

And join the crowd. I've voted for Democrats and while some were what I wanted many weren't, like our two current lady Senators from Boeing and Microsoft.

I blame it all on the Internet

Not well at all

(#288080)

The Democrats are so feckless here that they often fail to contest major statewide offices,  so that a Libertarian can occasionally break 1,000,000 votes in a two way vote.  But as far as winning anything,  not even close.

 

 

Ha. This Muslim populations elimination business

(#288163)
mmghosh's picture

seems pretty popular generally.  No excuses for my countrymen on this, either.  Perhaps its the human genocide gene expression.

It's the same old fallacy

(#288164)
HankP's picture

that if we can only get rid of X people, all our problems will be solved.

I blame it all on the Internet

Generally there's a core

(#288202)

of supporters for whom it is more "if we can only get rid of X people, then we can have all their stuff."

X, in order of danger level

(#288222)

4.  X = Rich people

3.  X = Racial minority, in charge politically

2.  X = Racial minority, not in charge politically

1.  X = Rich, racial minority, not in charge politically

 

If you're in category 1 expect a pogrom every decade or so.

 

 

Ha

(#288230)
HankP's picture

see "young bucks buying steaks".

I blame it all on the Internet

Where X = spouse then it's not a fallacy

(#288234)

I kid!  I kid! 

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

How's this test going?

(#288235)

Are we being watched?

Eeyn, it's too soon to tell

(#288241)

This isn't the sort of thing that brings on a confrontation from Mrs Cuddly.  In a few weeks should I mention that some white socks are pink or discover a new scratch on her car then I'll hear all about 'X = spouse, huh?'

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

I assume you mean 14th

(#288033)
stinerman's picture

If the government grants civil benefits to opposite-sex couples,  it must do the same with same-sex couples.  To not do so is arbitrary and is solely motivated by bigotry.

I actually believe the government should only grant civil unions to everyone and the word "marriage" is reserved to your religious preferences.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

Yikes

(#288038)

that was quite a typo. Thanks.

 

I agree with everything you say.  I'd go further and say that civil unions should also be decoupled from the idea of sex.  Any people whose affairs are entangled enough that it's not convenient to determine what belongs to who,  and who trust each other to sign for them,  ought to be eligible.  Parents living with adult children, roommates, business partners. 

 

But, I don't believe there is a prohibition against arbitrariness.  You might have the start of an argument that the motivation is bigotry - but there have been societies that were tolerant of all kinds of sexual relations but nevertheless didn't have same-sex marriage, so I think you'd have a hard time proving the connection.

There is

(#288088)
stinerman's picture

It's called rational basis review.

 

Now the government doesn't have to provide for civil unions at all.  They can fix this by refusing to grant any benefits to couples.

 

Also agreed on your point on civil unions and sex.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

From The Wiki

(#288147)
M Scott Eiland's picture

To understand the concept of rational basis review, it is easier to understand what it is not. Rational basis review is not intelligent basis review; the legislature is merely required to be rational, not smart. A court applying rational basis review will virtually always uphold a challenged law unless every proffered justification for it is a grossly illogical non sequitur (or even worse, a word salad). In 2008, Justice John Paul Stevens reaffirmed the lenient nature of rational basis review in a concurring opinion: "[A]s I recall my esteemed former colleague, Thurgood Marshall, remarking on numerous occasions: 'The Constitution does not prohibit legislatures from enacting stupid laws.'"[5]

 

To paraphrase Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., rational basis review is not a tool for obliterating any law that doesn't live up to current liberal (or whatever) policy preferences.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

I's not just democracy that depends on peaceful resolution

(#288042)
HankP's picture

I don't think any form of government would survive if every political decision led to violence. That's generally considered to be anarchy, when no one can even agree on the basic organizing principles of a society.

 

BTW I never said that parliamentary democracy was abhorrent, I said that hereditary monarchy and aristocracy are. Parliamentary democracy can work well (as we can see in the real world).  But I think you hit on the key point at the end. Any form of organization that a country implements depends on the honesty and sincerity of the large majority of participants, public and officials alike. No system will work well if too many people are trying to constantly game it for their advantage.

I blame it all on the Internet

Actually I was referring

(#288049)

to Manish's comment on your diary.    I don't find parliamentary democracy itself to be abhorrent either (although I prefer our system with separately elected executives) but lack of some kind of judicial review seems to be a major flaw.

 

 

As far as the UK goes

(#288060)
HankP's picture

I think the lack of a written constitution is a bigger problem that kind of makes your point moot. But from what I understand they do include court decisions in their "unwritten constitution".

I blame it all on the Internet

Trust me, they are better off.

(#288062)

The UK is a country where somebody can say "Brilliant!" in a meeting and that can mean "brilliant" or it can mean "you are an idiot who I am going to fire tomorrow", and the difference in tone is slight to the point of being imperceptible to the untrained American ear.

 

Meaning, their idea of language, written or otherwise, is, well, brilliant.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Maybe it's how I was raised

(#288118)
HankP's picture

but I prefer to see things in black and white. I'm not comfortable depending on the goodwill of others for things like basic rights. Even with that, too many people find ways around it.

I blame it all on the Internet

Other than the right to own a firearm

(#288123)

and blast away at whoever you choose on a whim. What basic rights do you perceive the average UK citizen is missing?

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

A 100% surveillance state?

(#288127)
HankP's picture

or cities, at least.

 

And even though our government screwed up by ignoring civil rights in the "War on Terror". we unlike the Brits can at least challenge it in the courts.

I blame it all on the Internet

Where do you think Habeas Corpus originates?

(#288132)

Surveillance State to my mind at least, would imply the surveillance of individuals in non-public places. Not the case in the UK. Also, you best get used to it because you are going to see a lot more surveillance cameras being deployed in the larger metropolitan areas of the US.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

As a tradition, not as a constitutional right

(#288134)
HankP's picture

look, I know a written constitution isn't a guarantee of anything. It just makes it more difficult for those who want to abrogate parts of it.

I blame it all on the Internet

Perhaps

(#288138)

..the Brits prefer the inherent flexibility of their own constitution to the inflexibility of the US method. Swings & roundabouts.

 

Also too, the Brits have a well earned reputation for respecting tradition:)

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

You're confusing marriage laws with sodomy laws.

(#288256)

True, sodomy laws which ban icky sexual acts do not implicate equal protection, because they ban those acts equally for everyone (I actually think this argument is strained, but let it stand for the moment).

 

But marriage laws restrict who may marry by dividing people into classes and then forbidding certain classes from marrying within themselves. They prevent a man from entering a marriage with another man, a woman from marrying a woman, because of their gender alone and for no other reason. These laws have no reference to specific sexual acts: in fact as you imply, two heterosexual women would be forbidden from marrying by the same laws. It makes no difference whether the couple in question is homosexual or not, or engage in icky acts or not: they are banned from marriage solely on the basis of their gender.

 

Marriage laws, and specifically defense of marriage laws which define marriage by gender class, are therefore exactly analogous to the statutes overturned in Loving v. Virginia, and Loving specifically rejected the "equal application" argument you're advancing here:

The State argues that the meaning of the Equal Protection Clause, as illuminated by the statements of the Framers, is only that state penal laws containing an interracial element [388 U.S. 1, 8] as part of the definition of the offense must apply equally to whites and Negroes in the sense that members of each race are punished to the same degree. Thus, the State contends that, because its miscegenation statutes punish equally both the white and the Negro participants in an interracial marriage, these statutes, despite their reliance on racial classifications, do not constitute an invidious discrimination based upon race.

 

...The fact of equal application does not immunize the statute from the very heavy burden of justification which the Fourteenth Amendment has traditionally required of state statutes drawn according to race.

Replace the word "race" with "gender," another category protected under strict scrutiny by the 14th amendment, and the reasoning is indistinguishable. "Equal application" is no defense when it comes to equal protection scrutiny. Instead, "The clear and central purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment was to eliminate all official state sources of invidious racial discrimination in the States."

 

The only exception to this reasoning would come if DOMA-type supporters could point out "some permissible state objective, independent of the [gender] discrimination which it was the object of the Fourteenth Amendment to eliminate." But as you yourself point out, there's no decent reason to disallow it. There is no legitimate state interest advanced by restricting marriage to heterosexual couples, so those restrictions should not survive strict scrutiny, assuming a court gets around to acknowledging the plain implication of current precedents with regard to gender. (I recognize that this hasn't happened yet.) To quote Loving some more, 

Indeed, two members of this Court have already stated that they "cannot conceive of a valid legislative purpose . . . which makes the [gender of a person's genitalia] the test of whether his conduct is a criminal offense."

 

There is patently no legitimate overriding purpose independent of invidious [gender] discrimination which justifies this classification.

M Aurelius was probably right.

???

(#288259)
HankP's picture

I don't think gender falls under strict scrutiny.

I blame it all on the Internet

You're Right

(#288263)
M Scott Eiland's picture

If it did, it wouldn't have been necessary to try to pass the Equal Rights Amendment.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

I think that's sex

(#288265)
HankP's picture

which also doesn't fall under strict scrutiny.

I blame it all on the Internet

As Used At That Time It Was The Same Thing

(#288266)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Expanded usage of the word came later: Gender is defined in the Oxford English Dictionary as, "[i]n mod. (esp. feminist) use, a euphemism for the sex of a human being, often intended to emphasize the social and cultural, as opposed to the biological, distinctions between the sexes.", with the earliest example cited being from 1963.[14] It was defined in the American Heritage Dictionary (3d ed.) as "[s]exual identity, especially in relation to society or culture", with a Usage Note saying that "[in] practice . . . many anthropologists . . . reserve sex for reference to biological categories, while using gender to refer to social or cultural categories."[15]

 

Also, it's hard to think of a gender distinction that would pass muster under a hypothetical Equal Rights Amendment where a sex based one would not.

 

Justice Ginsburg apparently played a major role in the popularization of "gender" as a euphemism for "sex" in the legal context:

Until relatively recently, the word "gender" referred to a grammatical distinction between feminine, masculine, and neuter words. Now it may be used to refer to a dimension on which people may differ and which may or may not be identical or closely related to "sex." Who was it that started such use of the word "gender?" The person who is most often mentioned as having popularized the use of the word "gender" when referring to persons is Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. As the story goes, she was complaining about the way her male colleagues snickered whenever she used the word "sex," and an associate recommended that she use the grammatical term "gender" instead. Some have suggested that Ginsburg avoided saying "sex" simply because of a speech impediment (a lisp -- see http://www.takeourword.com/Issue031.html and http://www.takeourword.com/TOW112/page4.html). In any case, she was involved in a lot of litigation on matters of sexual discrimination, and her use of the word "gender" did popularize it.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

I'm pretty sure

(#288271)
HankP's picture

that the use of "gender" to refer to orientation rather than just physical sexual differences predated Ginsberg's usage, I think it started to become common vernacular in the 70s and 80s.

I blame it all on the Internet

Oops: it's middle-tier, intermediate, or "exacting" scrutiny.

(#288268)

So read my comment as arguing that the courts should go further in applying scrutiny to gender discrimination than they (so far) have done. Even assuming they stick with "intermediate" scrutiny, the state must show an important interest that is substantially furthered by the discrimination. I've yet to see the argument for banning same sex marriage that comes anywhere near that standard.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I agree that's how it should be

(#288272)
HankP's picture

I just don't think all courts are quite there yet. I doubt that argument would fly in SC or AL, for example.

I blame it all on the Internet

Sorry for taking so long to respond.

(#288551)

First week of class,  etc,  plus it's tough to argue against your reasoning when I like the end result.  Nevertheless, I think it's flawed, or rather, equal protection law is flawed.

 

The basic problem is that the Reconstruction amendments were very poorly written.  Among other things, they protect "privileges and immunities" without giving the slightest hint what those are,  so that the BoR was "incorporated" piecemeal over a period of 150 years, and it's still not finished.   It's just the opening judges needed to give us some spiffy new rights,  but keep in mind that what they give they can take away.

 

The equal protection clause is especially problematic because the text can't be taken literally, so the textualist approach to interpretation has a problem right at the beginning.   All laws have the property of "dividing people into classes".  For example, people who rob banks or cheat on their taxes are separated out and treated differently than people who don't.  OK, that's silly, but how is it silly according to the text?  To take a less silly example, how about laws that distinguish citizens from non-citizens (recall that the text protects "any person within its jurisdiction"),  or laws that distinguish children from adults, or those over 65 from those under 65, or people born before a certain day from those born after, or people below the poverty line from those above.

 

An originalist approach leads you to the conclusion that it's about race and race only.  The authors of the equal protection clause didn't even think women should vote,  and it took a whole new amendment to give them the vote, indicating that even deep into the 1900's no one thought the equal protection clause covered gender.   

 

Since taking the text seriously leads to absurdities, and originalism doesn't get you where you want to be, the court came up with this levels of scrutiny nonsense.  A robustly written amendment might have been less elegant and more lawyerly, but at least it could be obeyed.  Instead, we've got this entirely subjective laundry list of different levels of excuse the government can use to not obey the literal meaning. 

 

They also had to come up with the concept of a "protected class".  They've interpreted the 14th Amendment such that it violates itself, since it protects some classes of people with higher levels of scrutiny than others. However, I will have to concede that the concept is in line with an originalist view, since the authors were clearly intending to protect African-Americans and no one else.

 

 

You made an analogy between race and gender. I see your later comment that it's a different level of scrutiny.  No kidding. "Separate but equal" is forbidden with respect to race,  but Title IX explicitly endorses "separate but equal" when it comes to gender.   We've got separated genders on sports teams,  and even whole schools,  none of which would fly with respect to race.  

 

The problem with strict/intermediate/rational basis scrutiny, and protected classes determined by courts, is that it pretty much requires legislating from the bench,  something both left and right claim to be against.  When you throw in disparate impact analysis,  literally any law could be subject to an equal protection challenge, and the only thing holding it back is judges deciding what's an important goal and what's not.

 

I think that as current law stands, my case is pretty good.

(#288554)

Marriage laws prohibit certain classes of people from entering into marital contracts, entirely on the basis of gender, a protected class. Intermediate scrutiny requires some important state interest substantially furthered by these laws in order for the laws to be acceptable: nobody can point to any such interest, and therefore the laws should go. I don't think the "separate but equal" doctrine even works in this case, as marriage isn't like a hotel room. You can't replace the person you want to marry with an equivalent person.

 

That said, I agree with you that the concept of "protected classes" is flawed from the outset; it winds up reifying the very racial/gender/religious distinctions it is intended to abolish. Examples of the resulting paradoxes & contradictions are legion especially in the conservative movement. Don't know that the 14th Am. violates itself, though it seems arguable. Trouble is, I'm not smart enough though to figure out a better way to accomplish the same ends. As you say, just about every law creates classes of people and picks winners & losers, and the feds just wanted to rein in some really pernicious examples of a general principle. They can't very well ban the notion of distinguishing classes of people. So I agree with you that the laws are problematic, but I have no idea how they could be improved.

 

Couple points of disagreement: what you call "legislating from the bench" I call normal functioning of the courts, in this case. I really don't see how you could enforce any kind of "discrimination" law without giving the courts wide latitude to weigh the facts & circumstances of each particular case...and even to invent standards whereby competing state interests can be adjudicated. The courts are inherently better at making these conflict-of-law judgments than legislatures can ever be.

 

In any case, the 14th Amendment was passed exactly because state & local courts couldn't be relied upon to enforce the law evenhandedly...it's a little ironic to worry that the 14th leaves too much up to the courts, when the entire purpose of the reconstruction amendments was to cram equality down the throats of courts & state legislatures.

M Aurelius was probably right.

A while back

(#288555)

we were mocking Bertrand Russell here for listing "Be just" as one of his ten commandments.  With the exception of the citizenship clause,  the 14th Amendment amounts to "Be fair",  which the courts have modified to "Be fair unless you have a good reason".   It's a fine sentiment but does not give much help a conscientious legislator who honestly wants to know before passing a law whether it is constitutional.

 

You've got me twisted up here.  The second half of the diary was supposed to defend judicial review and here I am arguing against judges with too much discretion.   I guess I prefer strongly defined rights that leave judges with no option but to overturn, rather than broad but weak ones that might or might not hold up when the tough case comes along.

I'm not sure there's a conflict

(#288556)
HankP's picture

whether explicit or implicit, the interpretation of laws depends on the people doing the interpreting. I prefer written rights as well, but one look at what's happened to the 4th amendment shows that it doesn't really make a difference in the long run.

I blame it all on the Internet

Is there some country where originalism/textualism/etc

(#288567)

actually resemble a working model of how judges on a high court ought to adjudicate?

 

As you say, it's obviously a fantasy in the US that would require e.g. allowing anti-miscegenation laws, and basically pretending the courts have had no role in fundamentally advancing justice in part by playing loose with interpreting legal texts. 

 

Perhaps originalism/textualism are mostly an artificial ideal, like some idealizations of reasoning are only useful idealizations for artificial systems -- e.g., exhaustively checking background beliefs for consistency, or working through all the valid consequences of a set of beliefs, many of which are trivial and/or too costly to deduce.

In other countries

(#288572)

it's generally less of an issue.  In many cases (most of continental Europe) it's because they have a relatively young constitution in which things are spelled out more explicitly.  Since they are recent, there hasn't been much time for majoritarian wishes to drift far from the original consensus, or for the meanings of words to drift.  Since they are more explicit, there is less need for theories of interpretation.  In other cases (England) the opposite is the case - there isn't going to be any judicial review because they have absolute parliamentary supremacy.

 

If you look at a typical rental agreement for an apartment,  you don't need to decide whether to be an originalist, a textualist, or in favor of a "living" rental agreement.  It's written pretty tightly and there are rarely any sincere disputes about what the contract means.  The disputes are usually about the facts of who did what.  On the other hand, if you wrote "The renter shall live in the apartment,  and the owner shall be paid, and everyone shall be reasonable"  then whoever is charge of resolving disputes is going to have to come up with a theory to fill in the missing details.