Sarah Palins preacher problem
Hat tip to Andrew Sullivan
God ... Is Gonna Strike Out His Hand Against, Yes, ... The United States Of America!
So are conservatives going to make an issue out of this like they did with Jeramiah Wright?
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Obviously I don't expect modern America to agree with me about this, but I see that sermon as far more threatening to democratic values and institutions than anything Jeremiah Wright ever said. The slavish worship of the trappings of state power, the expressed wish for a "king" to "deal with" the people's idolatrous and sinful ways, the belief that moral and legal questions are not subject to debate and compromise but have already been solved for all time by the Word of God, etc.
Hatred of America based on one's personal travails? That I can deal with and even understand. Hatred of the ideals and premises of a democratic society? That is potentially fatal.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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)nt
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )Though it's in a dusty little corner of the Bible, check it out. It ends with a promise to be done at last with the Kings of Israel.
Woe to the city of oppressors,
rebellious and defiled!
She obeys no one,
she accepts no correction.
She does not trust in the LORD,
she does not draw near to her God.
Her officials are roaring lions,
her rulers are evening wolves,
who leave nothing for the morning.
Her prophets are arrogant;
they are treacherous men.
Her priests profane the sanctuary
and do violence to the law.
...
On that day you will not be put to shame
for all the wrongs you have done to me,
because I will remove from this city
those who rejoice in their pride.
Never again will you be haughty
on my holy hill.
It's just my humble opinion, but I am growing increasingly tired of the theologically ignorant who just feel they have to make comments about the Bible. This is a plain-jane little sermon, with absolutely no bearing on politics. It's about putting faith in the ideals of justice and mercy, not in the City of Oppressors.
I don't like Sarah Palin any more than you do. But this is not Jeremiah Wright making a political statement.
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| parent )That sermon alludes to politics from start to finish, Blaise. Maybe I am operating under a broader definition of "politics", but it is precisely the shift I perceive in that underlying conception that concerns me. I am far less troubled by a sermon that instructs parishioners to vote for Bush over Kerry (though I may share the potential concerns of the IRS when April 15 rolls around).
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )and for the life of me, I can't see what it has to do with politics. Let's just say, okay, I'll go one step further and stipulate to a blind spot when it comes to sermons, I've heard a zillion of 'em and given quite a few myself. If you'd be so good as to proffer a particularly offensive chunk of that sermon with a commentary on why you found it so political, I'd be willing to look at it.
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| parent )I'm guessing that "deal with", in this context, is closer to "cut important bits off people" than "sit down for a friendly chat".
Josiah and his cousin are the heroes in this story: the king and the prophet who led their nation out of ruin, by getting the people to shape up and listen to God. Only trouble is that I think the whole premise is nonsense, so I'd be one of the ones getting shaped up. (Or shipped out.) Obviously the story is going to read a little differently to me.
Self-explanatory. If doing your own thing is bad, and listening to God is good, and we know this for certain because the word of God is revealed and absolute, what is the implication for politics?
Later on the point is made more emphatically by saying that God is going to cleanse the Earth in anger because he takes the people's sin personally. Well, if I believed that, of course I'd support sodomy laws.
The sermon ends with a call to humility. What is humility? To me, humility is the awareness of emptiness: all beliefs and actions, however accurate and meaningful in a relative sense, are empty from the standpoint of the Infinite. Kroon is asking us to let go of all anchors but one. What sense does that make? (Now I'm straying from politics, so you can feel free to ignore the last paragraph if you wish.)
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )Josiah appears in the historical record. He's nearly the last king of divided Judah. He is remembered for a few things, but mostly for restoring the law of Moses and doing away with foreign gods while he was alive. His people found an old scroll in the temple, probably Deuteronomy.
He's also remembered for stupidly standing in the way of Pharaoh Necho II, recorded in Herodotus. Josiah chose the wrong side in a much larger war between Babylon and Assyria. Necho had no interest in conquering Judah, he was on his way to relieve the siege of Harran. Josian may have led his little nation out of the brutal paganism and child sacrifice of the other religions, but he didn't play ball in the larger geopolitical realities. The only reason he had any power at all in the area was because the Assyrian empire had been wrecked and the Babylonians hadn't yet come into their own.
Of course, the Israelite version of the histories say God told Josiah not to oppose the armies of Necho II, but that's beside the point. Josiah cleaned up his own temple, but he left no lasting legacy. Judah promptly returns to child sacrifice to Moloch and the Asherah Pole as soon as he's dead, and by all accounts, Necho dealt with him like swatting a fly.
But Necho II was one of Egypt's most disastrous pharaohs. He may have beaten down the pathetic army of Judah, but Necho II outran his lines of support and was eventually crushed at Carchemish. Necho II also tries his hand at the very first Suez Canal. Necho found out he wasn't all powerful and his gods didn't save him either.
But I digress. Josiah dies a failure, smashed between greater empires. The Bible gives us these people, failures and all. Josiah was not humble, he grew proud. He thought he'd restore the glory days of Solomon and David, but those kings did all sorts of deals with larger and more powerful empires. God doesn't save us from the consequences of our own stupidities. He calls us, as you say, to humility, an awareness of our true selves.
If the story of Josiah is to mean anything, it's this. Personal holiness is one thing: Josiah succeeds in cleaning up his own back yard, and good on him for restoring the law. When he got too big for his britches, he was destroyed. It's a sobering lesson. Ourselves we may change, others we cannot.
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| parent )I'll refrain from comparing your scriptural exegesis to the likely quality of the same at Wasilla Bible Church. I will merely say that I am confident my interpretation of the sermon is what the average churchgoer would hear -- and is almost certainly what the speaker intended, given his other comments. IOW, you are assuming a quality of thoughtfulness and reflection that is not present.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )but I don't see the problem with religious people taking their morals into the polling booth with them. Again, call it a blind spot, but I went back and read that silly sermon again, I'm getting quite tired of it btw. and still can't see his condemnation of a wicked nation is any different than Zephaniah's condemnation of Israel's wickedness.
Maybe that's what scares secularists, that religious people would stand up and say "This is wrong." They want us to be very humble and allow them to make the rules and setting the agenda based on their own axioms and level-sets. We have a right to our opinions, we religious people. Sometimes we're right, as we were with slavery. We're also sick of the abortion of convenience. It's essentially infanticide. I'm not going to tell anyone how to think, as it happens I support a woman's right to choose. But inside my church, I'll believe what I want, and the secularist is an invited guest.
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| parent )If I believed that Christianity was an evil, idolatrous religion that was going to bring down the wrath of Zeus on America, what would happen if I "brought my morals into the polling booth"?
Democratic society asks its citizens to privilege certain things above even their most deeply-held religious beliefs. The first and most important of those things is tolerance. Sermons that make a virtue of intolerance and state coercion of private life, as this one does IMO, are anti-democratic and retrograde.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, but certain opinions are inconsistent with the existence of a functioning democratic polity.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )If your putative Zeus-ian faith led you believe seducing fair maidens and siring supermen was a noble thing to do, and there was a law against such, then by all means, do what it takes to get the law changed. Just as long as the Zeus-ian and the Hera-ian constituencies weren't duking it out on the floor of the Senate, hey, go for it. Remember, Zeus won't enforce your laws, that's up to you. And in this country, there's not sposta be a religious litmus test. Besides, for all their much-ballyhooed religious faith, politicians are more concerned about the Power and Glory of this present life than any hope of Heaven or fear of Hell.
I'm not sure about this Tolerance business, as if the greatest sin is Intolerance. If you Zeus-ians also started in on repealing laws against sex with minor children, would you mind if I opposed that on the basis of my own Christian morality?
See, the great thing about the USA is this: we ordinary people, both secular and religious don't really want religion in politics. There are two sides to that opposition.
The nagging reality, the constant threat arises from a very different quarter, speaking only as a religious person. I loathe all these politicians trying to cuddle up to my faith, and use it as political cover for their nefarious deeds. You can worry about religion trying to horn in on politics, but Jerry Falwell and his ilk are not much threat. I'll let you worry about that, I see the endless quarrels inside the religious community, they're useless. They couldn't get a dogcatcher elected. The politicians, they're the threat. They want to borrow the pulpit during election season, and forget us thereafter.
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| parent )so I'm going to have to correct you on it. While some denominations took the lead in opposing slavery others were vigorously supporting it. The Southern Baptists did not renounce using the bible to justify slavery until 1995!
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| parent )Let's face it, political entities are not one bit different than religious denominations. They all operate on their own articles of faith, damn their heretics, refine their theology and even have their own seminaries. They just call them think tanks and caucuses.
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| parent )The northern abolotionists were a pious bunch, for the most part, and William Wilberforce was an Evangelical. Which goes to show you that, as I said previously, you can use nearly any framework to justify nearly any result.
The same applies to secularism, of course. I trust we don't need to go into the various strains of virulently secular Communists, Maoists, etc and their sundry activities, you're versed in them, I'm sure.
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )virulent for sure. Absolutely zero relevance to the laws and conditions that me and my family have to live under here in the US. Theocrats in the US can affect those laws and conditions so I'm far more concerned about them.
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| parent )'Cause I could have sworn that's what you were gigging BP on. I don't believe there's been state-sanctioned slavery here for some time, so the practical aspect of your worry in that regard escapes me.
If we're still in "practical" rather than "historical" mode, I don't find myself worrying too much about extremists of either the left or right in political terms. None of those dogs appear to have the ability to hunt, as far as I can tell. Which is not to say that I don't dislike them....
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )about communists and maoists which have never had any practical effects on day to day life here in the US. While it's true that we have not had state-sanctioned slavery here for some time we are still living with the consequences of it. Getting back to the original point Blaise seemed to be implying that religion was on the "right" side of the slavery issue. The only point I was trying to make was that not all religious organizations were on the right side of that issue.
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| parent )If we keep it to domestic politics, historical or not, I think it's clear that both religious and secular organizations can be found on both the right and wrong sides of a number of issues. We've already mentioned the southern Baptist defense of slavery. For a secular equivalent, we can look to the history of eugenics in the U.S.
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )by the foibles of the multitude of Christian sects. I've read the bible myself. I've also heard wildly different interpretations of it from different quarters. Many groups believe it is the literal truth even though it's not internally self consistent. I've heard Catholics described as a cult by some evangelical's and similar sentiments returned in the other direction. I've been in church where people started speaking in tongues and writhing on the floor. In some parts of the country people (mostly Pentecostals) still handle snakes in church based on their reading of certain passages in the bible. Never saw that myself even though it still happens not too far from where I live. You have your beliefs Blaise. No matter what they are there are a lot of Christian sects who think you are in serious error based on whatever interpretation you have. They think you are theologically ignorant (and probably damned as well).
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| parent )Religion and politics have a lot in common. We can both look at the evidence and draw different conclusions.
Same thing with Christianity. Everyone worships God in his own way, according to his own traditions and lives in the light of his conscience. Some Christians take the Bible literally, every last word of it, some don't. Catholics have a few more books in their Bible, Mormons have a lot more. Some believe the Holy Spirit leads people to have ecstatic visions and speak in some made-up language, some of us don't. Some act all ignorant about scientific progress, evolution and that sort of thing. Some get all hot and bothered about people going to Hell, but that's God's problem, not mine. If God is just, he is also merciful.
It doesn't matter to the outside world, our debates are among ourselves. If you don't call yourself a Christian, you don't have any skin in the game. Leave us alone. We get along reasonably well with each other, and if a few ranters have some crazy talk up on the Internet, it's not indicative of a chaotic breakup within Christianity.
We're a whole lot more concerned about living day to day, doing the best we can. One thing unites all people of faith, regardless of their belief structure, and this I can say from personal experience, being part of an interfaith council, nobody from the outside sees how much we have in common. When a Muslim imam or a Catholic priest or a Sikh or a Baha'i or a Protestant minister is killed, it's an attack on us all, and it's very seldom where one religious scholar is urging on the killings. It's not even their insane followers. It's the politics of religion, that deadly admixture of abstract notions of God and good and evil combined with the all-too-concrete political shades of gray. That's the real enemy of both believer and unbeliever alike.
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| parent )I didn't know that.
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )1st and 2nd Maccabees, Baruch, Tobit, Judith, The Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), additions to Esther, and the stories of Susanna and Bel and the Dragon which are included in Daniel. Orthodox Old Testaments include these plus 1st and 2nd Esdras, Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151 and 3rd Maccabees.
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| parent )nt
--"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob
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| parent )that the mixture of politics and religion is deadly. And because of that mixture me and any other non Christian does have some skin in the game. You apparently have not read all of Palin's ministers sermons. I have not either but I have seen a few where he has no trouble mixing politics and religion (e.g. questioning their salvation if they voted for Kerry).
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| parent )These days, nobody would ever defend slavery, but when some Christians first stood up against it, right here in the USA, they were completely alone. Christianity stood up against segregation, nobody else did. And there was dissent in the Christian ranks about that, too. Slavery isn't condemned in the Bible.
Well, now they say the abortion of convenience is wrong, too. Doesn't matter what the law says, nobody's going to walk out of an abortion clinic and feel wonderful about it. Christianity always opposed infanticide, and they got in trouble for that back in Roman times. They wouldn't worship the Emperor, even more trouble.
Abortion isn't mentioned in the Bible, either.
I never heard anyone question anyone's salvation because of a vote for John Kerry. I suppose some dumbass did say it, but I can't imagine any serious following developed around Kerry's followers going to hell.
We pass laws against evil, when it affects others. The law applies to everyone, believers or not. When any one group rises up to oppose some perceived evil, they try to get laws passed. Christians have as much right to protest what they believe to be evil. I believe this war in Iraq began with a violation of the commandment: Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor.
Politics always rubs up against religion, and in the USA it's usually the politician trying to get in bed with religion, to prop up his cause with some moral justification. Over in Islam, other way around, but we have to be careful when we talk about who has skin in the game here. I would never be in a party with a religious command structure, but we can't muzzle those with whom we disagree, either.
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| parent )P. (well, not "wrong"...but in difference with my meager understanding of a few passages of the Bible.)
The Book of Numbers does mention an abortion. In one scene, taking place in a cave, we have two men, a husband and a priest, coercing the wife to abort, due to the fact that the fetus was not the husband's.
Of course, religious forced-birth proponents hiss and shriek when this passage is pointed out, and alternative explanations about the visit to the cave and the potion the woman was forced to drink it have been invented. But I've been taught that the flowery writing about this little episode in the cave is actually talking about forcing a cheating wife to abort her unborn.
--Me: We! -- Ali
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| parent )Ah, the Sotah Ritual. It's part of the ancient law, for a jealous husband who suspects his wife of adultery.
There's no cave in the story. Here's the Torah Navigator account.
The Sotah Ritual -- It's a famous bit of Talmudic scholarship, for it seems to be one of the most unfair bits of Torah. But Talmud makes it all quite clear, it's so barbaric because it's meant to humiliate the husband more than the wife. If she endures the Sotah and it was his child, how could he have done this to his own child?
But it's an interesting bit of Torah. Once the whole thing is over and done with, the priest blots out the accusation with the muddy water. The incident is closed. There's a psychological end to the accusation.
As stupid and unscientific as it sounds to us, today, it was actually a pretty good idea. In most of the cultures of the area, honor killings were and are routine. The Talmud is just so weird and cool.
I might add, the Sotah Ritual was abolished within Judaism. Read the link, it's worth the trouble.
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| parent )I never heard anyone question anyone's salvation because of a vote for John Kerry. I suppose some dumbass did say it, but I can't imagine any serious following developed around Kerry's followers going to hell.
There is an mp3 file of Sarah Palin's minister saying it. I would agree with your characterization of him as well :)
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| parent )You describe a lot of things that certainly happen but that just as certainly aren't mainstream. The majority of Christians in this country sit calmly in the pews on Sunday morning, share a cup of coffee and a cookie with their friends afterwards, and then go about their ordinary lives. It's frustrating to see so many liberals act as if Christianity is defined by its most extreme members.
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| parent )National politics.
If more ordinary members spoke up instead of Dobson and his ilk then it would be different.
It isn't Mrs. Grabowski down the street that appears on national television, she's busy with the church flowers. It isn't Mr. Ledbetter who is pushing religion into politics on national television, He's trying to keep his family and job intact.
It's the polished Elmer Gantrys that say they are the face of Christianity. Unless others step up to the plate, these slick jokers do define Chrisitanity on the national stage.
No one asks my priest to appear on CNN, nor would she think of it. She has a flock to care for, actually two, because she has to care for two parishes, because the Episcopalians aren't on TV asking for money. Or representing themselves as speaking for all Christians.
A little humilty would go a long way for the "spokesmen", self appointed to not, and I'm looking at you Bill Donahue, but that's not how it works anymore.
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| parent )have no desire to be humble, because they're perfectly happy to be the face of Christianity. And the moderate and non-dogmatic Christians don't get invited to the talk shows, because they don't make for must-see TV. And the people who are offended by the high-visibility fundamentalists overreact and become hostile to and/or contemptuous of all Christians.
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| parent )I don't see anyone trying to legislate against Christianity. Neither Sam Harris nor PZ Myers nor my humble self has any desire to bring the apparatus of state power to bear in preventing people from worshiping as they please, or doing whatever they wish in their bedrooms, or buying alcohol on Sunday. The same is not true on the other side, as proven by legislative action, opinion polls, and sermons like this one (which, Blaise frighteningly assures us, is altogether mainstream).
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )in general and certainly if you would ask that question directly but have you perused their websites lately? Lotsa' diatribes about the evil Christians and Muslims complete with revisionist history in every mouthful. Why--if it weren't for those Christians "holden' us back" we would already have our own personal spacecraft w/ a warp drive by now!!!
I certainly hope they haven't deceived themselves enough to actually believe they are fighting the good fight for me. I can take care of myself.
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )And yes, some of what they write is pretty silly. The difference still stands, though. I doubt they're fighting the good fight for you, but in the arena of tolerance (real tolerance, not the bulls***t PC redefinition) they're on the side of the angels.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )Of whom does this "other side" consist? It looks to me like you're precisely illustrating my point -- you set off vocal atheists on one hand and [scary religious people] on the other, as if most Christians in this country gave a rat's ass about what you do in your own bedroom. The fundy leaders don't speak for the majority of Christians -- if they did, this country would be happily jailing gays and lesbians instead of debating whether civil unions are an adequate substitute for same-sex marriage.
And please explain what exactly you find frightening about the sermon (I mean the text itself, not the preconceptions you bring to it).
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| parent )Really? Here in Georgia you still can't buy booze on Sunday and consensual sodomy was a crime until ten years ago. (Even then, the law was not repealed but struck down by the state Supreme Court. More of that awful judicial activism.) You seem to forget that not so long ago, this country was "happily jailing gays and lesbians". They still could, in some states, if one zealous DA decided a little reprioritization was in order.
Yes, Christians do scare me, and atheists don't. I've never in my life known an atheist who wanted to coerce me unreasonably.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )Re the blue laws: my understanding is that in most places, they remain in force at the behest of liquor store owners, because otherwise the market will force them to stay open 24/7 or lose business.
I don't forget anything, I'm saying that Christians are a large majority of the population, and anything that Christians as an entire class want, they're going to get. Some Christians want to restrict your freedom, many others are happy to let you keep it. You falsely accuse many, many Christians by lumping us all together like that. Several major US Protestant denominations are about evenly split on whether to ordain gays and lesbians -- how do any of your accusations possibly apply to the members of these groups who are ready to be not only tolerant but welcoming of GLBT people?
And anyway you shouldn't so quickly lay anti-homosexuality at the feet of Christians -- that's better described as a cultural phenomenon that was simply ratified by most religions. Religious belief is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for it.
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| parent )....you've never known an atheist that wanted to coerce you unreasonably because you tend to agree with the reasons they want to coerce you? I trust you can see why this logic might not apply across the board.
Or, to put it another way, have you considered that I'm perfectly happy to have the IRS take your money away to finance wars and covert operations overseas in furtherance of my thoroughly non-religious goals?
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )where an atheistic regime destroyed the cultural patrimony of centuries of Buddhism and Taoism. Please don't try to parse away Communism from Atheism, I've already said enough nice things about atheists to warrant a concession on this point.
There's also the horrific example of Pol Pot. And Stalin, who murdered off so many priests it's a miracle Russian Orthodoxy survived at all.
As with any other orthodoxy, Atheism showed its iron fist in the 20th century. Christianity had a few horrible centuries, and should be viewed with suspicion. Islam's having a Bad Hair Century in present times. But let's face facts here, Atheism can be just as brutally orthodox and coercive, given state backing, as any religion. In any event, on a total body count, Atheism certainly killed more people of faith in the 20th Century than any religion, including Islam and Christianity, and it's no accident religions thrive in ex-Communist regimes.
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| parent )That's reasonable coercion, BG. I may not agree with it, but I accept it, because I am able to coerce you in complementary ways. Coercing my viewing habits, sexual preference, choice of religion, etc. are all unreasonable coercion.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )who wanted to stop me from buying booze on Sundays :)
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| parent )Blue Laws. I find it difficult to believe that the shopping restrictions in Paramus, NJ, are being driven by religious piety. :^)
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )in Paramus NJ or for that matter anywhere in the country and those Blue Laws are not their doing.
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| parent )but definitely gleefully confiscating their kids.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )all Christians. But on the other hand, those few are used to paint all secularists, and I count myself one even though I attend church and am looking at my confirmation crucifix right now on the wall, as hating Chrisitans. It is an overreaction as well.
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| parent )I didn't complete the circle. I guess it's human nature to polarize the "other" like that.
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| parent )If only the religious were as tolerant of them as they are of us believers. Lots of ignorant religionists, but I've yet to see one ignorant secularist. Oh, perhaps they don't know how most religious people are, but they quickly catch on. Most are lapsed religionists, and it's embarrassing to meet up with such people. They tell me horrific tales, all personal stories, and I just have to resist the urge to curl up in shame. My only consolation is that I'm not like that.
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| parent ).
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )I read the sermon, and it's a standard reading of the book, just as the Jewish rabbis read it in the Tanakh and Rambam's incomparable Mishneh Torah.
It doesn't matter if you agree with the Bible or the Jewish traditions or not. Zephaniah also says in 3:9
I will make the people speak a clear language so that they will all say the Name of God and serve Him, shoulder to shoulder.
Say what you will, that seems like a fine and noble wish to me. Serving with one purpose. Not some idiotic vision from an obscure, vicious corner of the landscape, intent on imposing anyone else's viewpoint.
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)Lasted about 7 hours and 27 minutes. Did you read the actual sermon? Sullivan has no excuse, which makes his post fundamentally dishonest. The preacher was talking about the book of Zephanaiah, which discusses the end times for all the earth. Since Wasilla is on earth, it is not excluded. The whole point of the sermon boils down to the final two paragraphs. This isn't even close to Wright's many anti-American statements and paranoid falsehoods and factually challenged rhetoric.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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)Maybe not to the fundies but to everyone else he sounds like a raving nutjob. If you're looking for specific Anti-American stuff there is her husbands membership in the AIP and her nice cozy relationship with that organization.
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| parent )I'm guessing you don't go to church much? There's really nothing remarkable there to the average church-goer, though I can see why it seems scary to those who feel threatened by Christianity.
See here for more such scare-mongering, from the NYT.
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| parent )have you been to? And by that I mean different sects. When I was much younger before I became an agnostic I went through a period of my life when I was trying to find a church whose doctrines made sense to me. I visited many and finally came to the conclusion that what I was seeing and hearing was a bunch of nonsense. I'm not denying that there may be something real and meaningful behind it all which is why I am an agnostic rather than an atheist. But the claim that there is anything like an average church goer is simply not based on the reality. Catholics for example find the practices of many of the evengelicals bizarre and vice versa.
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| parent )Of course there's a lot of diversity, but there's also a mainstream. There are many flavors of leftish fringe groups as well, but most liberals are not Communists or pacifists or animal rights activists.
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| parent )Catholics and Southern Baptists. Together they constitute a huge number of people and they have very strong differences. (The Southern Baptists have even had a theological civil war between themselves). Both denominations consider themselves infallible and everyone else to be in error.
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| parent )Even the Catholics don't believe in Infallibility to that degree. Ex Cathedra means the Pope is infallible in matters of doctrine.
Baptists do not believe in Infallibility, at all. What you're going on about has been a division in Protestant belief going back to Calvin and Arminius, and even earlier to the legalism of James versus the inclusiveness of Paul. These days you could label it Evangelical and Fundamentalist. To put names on it, Billy Graham and Jerry Falwell.
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| parent )and it's pretty much the same thing as infallibility. Their interpretation of scripture.
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| parent )Okay, there are various ways of looking at Biblical inerrancy. The first and most obvious is mistranslation, a very serious problem, especially since the most prevalent translations of the Bible, the King James and the Douay are lousy translations.
Second, we get to what's called poetic license. The Psalms are full of metaphors, which not even the Jewish faith believes are literal representations of inerrant truth. They're poems and songs, their truths are quite different than literal truth.
Then we get to the miracles. Noah's Ark, Jonah and the Whale, that sort of thing. Liberal theology discounts the miracles, but without them the Bible becomes meaningless, just a pack of lies. Homer's Iliad and Odyssey are full of gods and miracles, too, but we can see something true in them. There was a city of Troy, Schliemann found it. The Noah's Ark story appears in the Gilgamesh legend. The geological record supports the truth of a great flood after a prodigious volcanic eruption. Did Noah build an ark and save two of every species? We don't hold the Gilgamesh and Homer to the same standard as we do the Bible.
I answer the miracles debate with the following analogy. Despite being an artillery forward observer for many years, I never once saw an artillery round land. I saw the explosions, I saw the craters. I don't have to believe in the round, I can believe in the crater. These stories have survived the test of time, they don't need proving or disproving. We don't have any proof of King David or Solomon either. We have even less proof of Alexander the Great. We only have the stories, and the cities they left behind in their wake. Let people believe in miracles: the universe is full of the unexplained and perhaps unexplainable. Dark Matter and Dark Energy remain mysteries, too, and they're not miraculous. We just don't know how to explain them. Those who wish to assert Biblical Inerrancy in its modern sense, the Evangelical sense, mean only that the inerrant Bible is our only source of doctrinal legitimacy. I have seen miracles, but in so saying, I cannot say they violated the laws of space and time. I believe they were miracles, but that only implies I have no rational explanation.
Jefferson said, The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg . . . reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error. . . . They are the natural enemies of error, and of error only.
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| parent )the only "crater" left is the very book we're discussing, so I'm not sure about your analogy.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Did you like my little dance around the issue? Heh, heh.
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| parent )Back when I was going every Sunday we didn't get much of this fire and brimstone. I am a Papist thought, so I think Evangelicals like Palin & her preacher look down upon me as a cultist.*
*Not an Obama cultist, a Cardinal Ratzinger** cultist.
**The day I call Ratzinger "Pope Benedict" is the day I call the Adams Division the "Northeast Division".
--But she's a queen, and such are queens
that your laughter is sucked in their brains. -D. Bowie
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| parent )It wasn't fire and brimstone at all. The rhetorical purpose of the mention of Wasilla and the US being wiped out was to help the audience contextualize the passage being discussed. And the "end of the world" concept isn't the real takeaway of the sermon -- it's just being used to push the real point, which is that the listeners should personalize their relationship to God.
I go to a very liberal New England presbyterian church, and my pastors would be unlikely to approach the subject the same way (they generally avoid eschatology as much as possible). But this sermon could be preached in our church without causing much of a fuss.
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| parent )and when I clicked through there to the NYT, all I saw was a typical soft focus puff piece.
I am glad that her pastor advised her to prevent the slaughtering of Jews, though.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )You caught me not clicking through -- Podhoretz seems to be reading it with a chip on his shoulder. It's hard to tell from the article itself what the reporter had in mind.
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| parent )Sully is so intent on wanting McCain-Palin to lose that he deliberately distorted the sermon and he dishonestly tried to equate that pastor to Jeremiah Wright, at least that's how I see it. Sully and Blumenthal (and you by your approving link) are trying to stigmatize her as a "raving nutjob", when a clear reading of the sermon proves no such thing.
As for AIP, Todd's membership in AIP is a fact, but Sarah's "nice cozy relationship" is not a fact. Without facts to back that up, you're once again engaging in smear.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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| parent )he does look like a raving nutjob to anyone but the fundies and the Republican spinmeisters. He didn't need Sully's help for that. He managed all by himself.
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| parent )Do you go to church? My Lutheran ex-pastor gave sermons like this every other Sunday.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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| parent )Had an early breakfast with some locals who have sorta taken me under their wing. We talked a little bit about Pentecostals and the Sarah Palin issues.
They remarked, and these people are just plain old salt of the earth North Georgia people, it's good to see Obama leaving this woman's private life out of his rhetoric. Pentecostals come in many flavors, and that's okay. People worship God in their own way.
But they worry about either of the candidates being able to keep their promises. Georgia politics are awfully rough. Metro Atlanta has big problems. Immigrants up here in the Norcross area are straining the social support structures. ESL classes are full to brimming. The big issue for these people isn't the immigrants, this little church has an outreach program to the Dominican community here. It's the economy: industries are shutting down, deflating the tax base. Foreclosures are killing real estate values. Atlanta is laying off firemen, closing fire stations. Crime's going up. What can the Feds do about that? Precious little.
We glumly ate the rest of our breakfasts, went to Sunday School and church. Sermon on Mark 6, the sending forth of the twelve. They go forth with no supplies, nothing but the clothes on their back, no money in their pockets. Herod believes John the Baptist is resurrected. The tale flashes back to John the Baptist's execution. Rulers in high places would not have been inspired to guilt by well-heeled disciples with resources and support structures. These rulers are only fearful of people guided and empowered by an idea.
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| parent )But they worry about either of the candidates being able to keep their promises.
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )with a very nice message. She attended their 2000 convention (yes I know it was in Wasilla and she was the mayor). Given their secessionist views and their anti American bent she should never have associated with them at all. As for her husband as I noted before you said that Obama needed to give a deeper explanation of his 20+ year relationship with Jeramiah Wright. Since her husband was a member of an anti American group shouldn't she be held to the same standard?
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| parent )we're arguing about her relationships. I never made an issue of who Michelle Obama associated with because I don't think that's a fair way to measure the candidate, and I likewise believe that you shouldn't judge Sarah Palin by who Todd Palin associates with. If you're trying to say that a 2000 attendance and 2007 video constitutes "nice and cozy", I think your case is thin, to put it charitably.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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| parent )Video:
"Good luck on a successful convention, keep up the good work and God bless you!"
No, that's not cozy at all.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )You're right. Not cozy.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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| parent )Because I've never heard of a governor sending a greeting like that to anyone but their own party. For example, I've never heard of a D or R governor sending a message like that to the Libertarian Party or Green Party conventions.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )....nobody who associates with anti-American elements should be in higher office, Barry included. So who are you guys picking as a replacement?
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )Personally, I think it should be a requirement. Anyone who's never associated with anti-American elements has led way too sheltered a life.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )To fix up the schools with a member of this party, that'd be one thing. To take your analogy seriously, Obama would have had to attend some sort of weathermen specific function rather than associate with a former weatherman in a totally different role.
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| parent )....not the ex-hippy bomber.
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )Is anyone who is angry with America automatically anti-American?
They are different things; the first implies a desire for behavior change, while the second implies a desire for destruction. I see a lot of the former in Wright and precious little of the latter.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )....the anger and the suggested solution are, I'd say. I'm pretty darned happy with things as they are, overall. Plenty of problems, but most don't look terrifyingly large. Better yet, most of them don't have a terrifyingly large impact on me. You might draw from this the natural conclusion than I'm not in favor of really radical changes, particularly those being pushed by angry guys with which I have little in common. This stretches from Wright to McVeigh.
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )I also don't think the changes he wants -- which, I am sure, have much more to do with policing, improved access to education, and any number of highly local issues than anything else -- will affect you much.
I do expect they'd cost you an extra $100 a year or so in taxes, but I think we can both agree that that is a genuinely tiny impact on your life.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )....from me a year, I'd suggest he has a better chance of getting it by submitting an itemized budget into the arena of public discourse and then explaining why it'd be worth $100+ than by telling me that God's angry at me. If God's mad at me, it can take it up with me personally.
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )...that he's not particularly anti-American, that his preferred outcomes are essentially reasonable, and that his tone is off-putting.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )....an "if" up there. I'm taking your c-note statement as a given for the sake of discussion.
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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| parent )Sullivan is very clear that the good preacher was using the Book of Z as the basis for his End of Days nonsense.
The point here is that Gov. Palin is a theological primitive. That's her right. But it tends to bring some bad baggage along with it. Antisemitism usually first and foremost.
As always, the quickest way to get to the bottom of any of this is for the candidate to sit down with reporters and answer questions.
And of course you're right about the clearinghouse.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )He took a basic Sunday sermon and tried explode it into something that it isn't, trying to make some stupid equivalence with Jeremiah Wright. Did you actually read the sermon? More importantly, did Sullivan actually read the sermon or did he just do a drive-by, reading what Blumenthal told him instead of checking out the original source? If he didn't, then he's a lazy son-of-a-bitch, and if he did, then he's a deliberate smear merchant. In either case, he's having himself a really bad week.
If you want to say that Palin is "theological primitive", fine, but such an assertion can't be made on the basis of that particular sermon.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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| parent )stuff all by itself.
There is nothing wrong with being from Pentecostal roots but being Pentecostal isn't remotely like being Episcopal or Lutheran or Catholic or even old school Baptist.
--Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.
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| parent )The Huskies suck. (See football thread for explication.)
As for Sullivan, I'm guessing he read the sermon, has read previous sermons given at her church -- there's the whole dicey Jews Don't Go to Heaven problem -- and the man's Catholicism is a constant subject. Which is to say, he takes the larger subject seriously.
I actually think he's had a great week. And much of it spent quoting concerned conservatives about the new direction of the McCain campaign.
Bonus comment. I wonder what the foreign policy dudes in the GOP think of the Palin choice? Lugar, Hagel, Powell, etc.
In truth? I'm guessing Powell will now endorse Obama. And Palin will be the reason, however cloaked, why.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )This country will not move forward until the Nixon/Reagan/Bush thugs are expunged from our government and maybe sent to prison.
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| parent )remember that a lot of Very Serious People pay attention to what Powell says. There will be plenty of time for investigation after the election.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )to what any of those charlatans say is masochistic, foolish, and gullible beyond repair.
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| parent )I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )- Login or register to post comments
)....I'm annoyed that Sullivan doesn't understand that a petard was a bomb, and so wouldn't have been hoisted anywhere in particular.
Beyond that, it appears to me that the good pastor is actually claiming that Palin's own community and church are rife with sin along with everybody else, and that the lot of them (himself included) will eventually pay for it. This appears qualitatively different from claiming that the honky racists have been sinful and deserve to pay for it. YMMV. Of course, I have no truck with this sort of nonsense in the first place, so having Palin denounce him would suit me fine, so long as she can still collect fundie votes afterwards.
--The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer
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)Cos that's all that's standing between Bernard and political Armageddon for his chosen ideology, not to mention the feared effect on the contents of his pocket book. I suspect very little of which ever ends up in the church collection plate by the way.
--