The American people are stupid


The American people are stupid. A provocative statement that's sure to
provoke a strong response from some. I'm not a politician though so I
don't have any need to tell the American public how wonderful they are. One of the reasons the American people have been able to get away with being stupid for so long is because they have for the most part been insulated from the cost of their stupidity. There are exceptions here and there (e.g. people who thought that the real estate boom would go on forever) but when it comes to the grandest stupidity of them all the American public has not had to pay a price for being stupid. That's about to change. I am speaking of course about energy policy. Oil is approaching $100 barrel as I write this. Unlike previous price spikes which were caused by political issues (e.g. wars or boycotts) this one is because there is simply not enough oil available to meet demand. At this point economists would respond that the high prices will lead to increased production which will reduce prices. Unfortunately that's not happening. World production has been flat for 2 years now even as prices have skyrocketed. The fundamental problem with the economists view is that the world does not in fact produce oil. It's a finite resource that we extract. Big difference. When the resource is gone it doesn't matter how high the price goes you won't be able to extract any more.

But back to the stupidity of the American people. They are not happy with energy prices right now. They're about to get a lot unhappier though. China has started to experience fuel shortages. China has a lot of American dollars to spend. The price of oil is going to go much higher. None of this was particularly hard to foresee and in fact it's been predicted for nearly 40 years. (Google Peak Oil for references). US political leaders don't seem to have been paying much attention but of course that's because American voters have not been paying much attention. They've purchased ever larger cars and SUV's, built ever larger houses farther out in the suburbs and generally acted as if the party would go on forever. Part of their stupidity has been because they listened to analysts pundits and experts who kept reassuring them that there was nothing to worry about. One of the most prominent of the so called experts is Daniel Yergin of Cambridge Energy Research Associates. You can hardly open a newspaper these days without reading a quote from Mr. Yergin claiming that oil prices are going to go way down in the near future. It's odd that he keeps getting quoted. A review of his record over the last 7 years is pretty dismal. This graph outlines it nicely.

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/cera.h2.jpg

The full story associated with the graph can be read here.

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/cera.htm

Mr. Yergin is not alone. The OPEC countries, oil companies and their allies in politics and think tanks (mostly conservative leaning) have done a wonderful job of stopping the US from enacting a sensible energy policy for the last 30 years. The domestic automobile industry and organized labor also share part of the blame but the ultimate responsibility lies with the American public and their willingness to be duped. President Carter started the US down a sensible path but the problem was that he was not telling the American people what they wanted to hear. A president with better leadership skills might have
been able to overcome this but Carter did not have the necessary skills. Reagan had the skills but not the necessary sense and he preferred to tell the public what they wanted to hear. Since the oil shock at the time was due to political issues it eventually resolved and oil prices crashed. With no pressing impetus from high prices and with no strong leadership from the top the policies that Carter initiated were mostly discarded and the US is paying for that now (and will be paying a lot more in the very near future).

So here we are. We've got a rough ride coming up. Technology exists that can solve our problems. Unfortunately all of these technologies have a long implementation time. Vehicle mileage can be drastically improved and it will be improved but the average lifetime of a vehicle is more than a decade. Land use patterns can be changed but that takes even longer. Biofuels and alternative energy can replace oil but again there is a long lead time before they can make a significant contribution. Government policies could have been structured over the last 20 years so as to minimize the transition costs but that was not
done. It needs to start but unfortunately we are unlikely to see anything happen until the situation gets much worse. Some people are finally starting to take notice though. The International Energy Agency which up to now has put forth rosy energy forecasts finally
seems to have woken up and realized that the world is facing a serious problem in the very near future.

Demand destruction in the form of recessions/depressions may temporarily lower prices but everytime the economy starts to recover prices will skyrocket and the cycle will repeat. The severity and duration of the disruptions will depend to a great extent on how soon the US (and the world) starts to seriously address the issue. All sorts of political and economic changes are in the works. Interesting times indeed.

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Oil has risen in price... (#67453)
by locutas

but the US dollar has dropped, more, in value. In most world currencies, oil has only gone up about 15% over the last couple of years.

--

John Spragge
Peacemaker, student, web-log author
...the truth about atrocities... is that they happen

We're running out of oil (#66508)
by Joe

and yet our domestic supply is artificially restricted. Maybe we stupid Americans are just waiting for the price to really skyrocket before tapping into known reserves inside US territory.

--

Will crush dissent for food

Domestic petroleum reserves are inadequate (#66522)
by Bill White

Canadian shale oil, on the other hand, is viable provided oil stays at ~$100 a barrel.

By the way "peak oil" does not predict we run out of oil, it merely predicts we run out of cheap oil.

= = =

Glenn Reynolds offers a link to Bob (Case for Mars) Zubrin and his touting of flex fuel vehicles based on methanol, which unlike ethanol can be readily produced from just about any organic product, including our farm waste streams.

The world economy currently runs on oil, a resource controlled by our enemies. This threatens to leave us prostrate. It must change—and it can change, quickly.

Saudi Arabia is the primary global financier of the Islamist terror cult. Until the Saudis started racking up billions in inflated oil revenues in the 1970s, the Wahhabi movement was regarded by Muslims the world over as little more than primitive insanity. Without rivers of treasure to feed its roots, this horrific movement could neither grow nor thrive. It is the Saudis’ unlimited funds—over $200 billion in foreign exchange earnings in 2006—that have allowed them to buy up the faculties of the Islamic world’s leading intellectual centers; to build or take over thousands of mosques; to establish thousands of radical madrassas, pay their instructors, and provide the free daily meals necessary to entice legions of poor village boys to attend. Those boys are indoctrinated with the idea that the way to get into paradise is to murder Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Taoists, and Hindus (not to mention moderate Muslims). Graduates of these academies are today killing American soldiers in Iraq. Meanwhile, Arab oil revenues have underwritten news outlets that propagandize hatefully against the United States and the West, supported training centers for terrorists, paid bounties to the families of suicide bombers, and funded the purchase of weapons and explosives. We have been subsidizing a war against ourselves.

And we have not yet reached the culmination of the process. Iran is now using its petroleum lucre to fund its nuclear program and to insulate itself from economic sanctions imposed on it. Once produced, Iranian nuclear weapons could be used by the Iranian regime itself or be made available to terrorists to attack U.S., European, Russian, or Israeli targets. This is one of the gravest threats to international peace and stability—and, again, we are paying for it ourselves with oil revenue.

Our responses to these provocations have been muted and hapless because any forceful action on our part against nations like Saudi Arabia and Iran could result in the disruption of oil supplies that the world economy is utterly dependent upon. We cannot stand up to our enemies because we rely upon them for the fuel that is our economic lifeblood. We pay them for their oil and they make war on us.

In light of these realities, U.S. energy policy for the last three decades has been a scandal. The time has come for change. To liberate ourselves from the threat of foreign economic domination, to destroy the economic power of the terrorists’ financiers, and to give ourselves the free hand necessary to deal forcefully with them, we must devalue their resources and increase the value of our own. We can do this by taking the world off the petroleum standard and putting it on an alcohol standard.

His solution? Flex fuel vehicles that can use gasoline or methanol or ethanol:

Fortunately, however, there are simpler techniques to make usable alcohol fuel out of biomass, and much else. This brings us to methanol, the simplest liquid fuel molecule known to chemistry. Commonly called “wood alcohol” because it can be readily produced from wood, it can also be manufactured out of virtually any kind of organic material, including every kind of biomass (whether edible or not), as well as coal, natural gas, human and animal metabolic wastes, and municipal trash. Since its potential sources are so vast, varied, and cheap, methanol promises to be an inexpensive fuel. In fact, it already is: during the summer of 2007, the wholesale price of methanol, manufactured and sold without a subsidy, was $0.93 per gallon. Methanol has about 54 percent the energy density of gasoline, so this price is the equivalent of gasoline selling for $1.70 per gallon (before taxes).

Depending upon the source material, there are a number of different ways to make methanol, but they all come down to the same few chemical reactions. Converting coal or natural gas to methanol can be done with tried and true nineteenth-century chemical engineering. The same goes for biomass—which means that any plant material, without exception, from weeds and fallen leaves to swamp cattails and the vast floating growths that clog innumerable rivers in Latin America and Africa, can be used as feedstock for the process. And trash, too, can be converted to methanol: it doesn’t matter whether the feedstocks are packaging materials, old rags, used candy wrappers, plastic forks, or Styrofoam coffee cups; the stuff is all just compounds of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, with a few impurities thrown in here and there, and all of it can be converted to methanol.

The chemistry needed to dethrone oil is well understood. We can readily convert our available fuels into an alcohol supply bountiful enough displace a large portion of the oil we import. The only problem is, we need to have cars and trucks that can use it.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

The Boys are Back in Town (#66516)
by catchy

theforvm does Thin Lizzy tonight.

Hhmm. . . . (#66256)
by Inigo

"One of the reasons the American people have been able to get away with being stupid for so long is because they have for the most part been insulated from the cost of their stupidity."

Trust me, I'm no particular apologist for "the American people." But to say the above is not to argue that the American people are "stupid." It's merely to observe that for some time now a unique (and perhaps artificial) market has existed -- one generally available only to us -- and that we have operated on the terms established by that market. That has been, for the most part, a good thing -- post-war American productivity has been pretty okay. But we can't continue to be "insulated" forever, and if there is any real "stupidity" in play here, it lies, not so much in the way we have conducted ourselves historically (that actually has worked out pretty well), but in not adequately preparing for the fact that our special little exemption from reality will soon be coming to an end.

--

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

Well, Ish (#66167)
by eeyn524

The calculation's probably true in some simplistic numerical sense; however, what it really amounts to is asking us to knock down our cities and rebuild them according to some new plan where everyone lives walking distance from work. A 50-year plan at best.

I'd also point that there was a time when factories were smack in the middle of cities and typical neighborhoods had corner stores scattered all over the place. But then someone came up with the idea of zoning, so that it many places it's not even legal to have stuff within walking distance.

Two steps in the right direction not involving increased government: (a) ban local governments from doing zoning except for clear and present safety hazards, (b) cut back funding for new road construction.

tongue in cheek (#66260)
by callmeishmael

was the intent of my post, but seriously, one take-away from this article is that you can do some good for you and the environment with a little advance thinking.

E.G. there are probably >3000 adults living within 1 mile of my local grocery store. How many get in the Suburban to drive over and grab a couple groceries? I can't tell you how many people I see pull up in a car only to come out with a small bag of groceries in hand. How about a little walk to get that gallon of milk instead?

It's little things that add up. I work I'm not suggesting you put your car up on blocks, but consolidating trips, changing a light bulb, taking a walk instead of driving the car for short errands are just minor little things that add up.

Problem with that is... (#66208)
by Punditus Maximus

...in the absence of any zoning restriction, one gets equally impossible-to-manage sprawl.

The trick is to zone for activity level, rather than activity type. Residential neighborhoods shouldn't necessarily have multiplexes jammed into their midst, but they have every need for corner groceries and cafes.

Lot size restrictions are, of course, class warfare, but height restrictions can serve to manage the various needs for sunlight and open space that people have.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Some excellent points (#66082)
by tomsyl

AFA the so-called stupidity of the American consumer, I thought the plan was that we elect people who are supposedly smarter and more capable than we are to deal with issues like these. Where amongst the candidates both parties are putting up for president is someone even capable of enunciating energy issues, let alone possible solutions? The only candidate I ever heard focus on this was Tom Vilsack, and look how far it got him. And when do consumers get to actually vote on alternate energy programs directly by referendum?

Without realizing it, China is mimicking the US after WWII - unlimited energy use without consideration of the consequences in obeisance to seemingly unlimited industrial output and GNP growth. China's efforts to exempt itself from the second Kyoto round proves that as much as anything.

I don't think there is anything long-term or mysterious about alternatives to oil. Nuclear power, wind and hydro are mature technologies; all they need is forced support from utilities and a brake on "save the snail darter" willful litigation interference from eco-extremists. (And the Kennedys.) AFA other technologies, large-scale solar furnaces, OTEP, geothermal where available, etc. are limited only by economic incentives, not technology. And even cutting edge technologies like printed carbon nanotube solar panels could be sold commercially in five years or less if the government would spend more on alternate energy R&D than it does on National Park rangers.

$100/bbl for oil is insignificant as compared to its true cost, to the countries addicted to burning it as well as the countries addicted to selling it.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Hmmm . . . . (#66139)
by Bill White

Are you the real tomsyl or did someone steal your password?

Again, I pretty much agree with the entire post.

Anyway, as for this:

Without realizing it, China is mimicking the US after WWII - unlimited energy use without consideration of the consequences in obeisance to seemingly unlimited industrial output and GNP growth. China's efforts to exempt itself from the second Kyoto round proves that as much as anything.

I saw a geopolitical opportunity here to unite Europe and America against China. If we had ratified Kyoto (China exempt) and waited five years or ten years and gone to Brussels with evidence of gadzillion new Chinese coal plants then we could have have unity on the need to slam China very hard over their CO2 emissions.

Ah well, woulda, coulda, shoulda . . .

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

You sound like most liberals I know...:) (#66098)
by Davinci

nt

--

Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your

A Dem virus interrupted the streamed brainwashing I get (#66114)
by tomsyl

from BushChimpHitlerCo's minions at the Republikkkan party headquarters. Don't worry, I'll be back to normal soon - apologies for the temporary lapse. %^>

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

As Ken often says a pox on both parties... Still it is a general (#66118)
by Davinci

feeling that the goals of the left are more in line with my personal ethos. Still it would be nice to see common sense solutions that split the difference.. (Compromise on many real topics that the vast majority of the public want solved or re looked at.) Still the loony fraction on your side do scare me more than my own. A good conservative friend of mine once told me that the country would never fall to the left. He did think that the right could overstep. We will have to continue with the viruses so that does not happen.. :)

--

Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your

I suppose it's a matter of taste (#66127)
by Darth Cuddly

but it's the "loony" that scares me rather than the side they're on. Think of it this way, from the loony left's perspective, you are seen to be very much like me, same same from the loony right. Or put another way, the loony left's or right's idea of a perfect world is something we both would see as shiddy and neither would be welcome in.

--

It's not only redundant, it's also repetitive

Speaking of taste, I'll drink to that as well. (Thanks!). NT (#66128)
by Ken White
I'll drink to that Da. Good post (#66126)
by Ken White
Welcome (#66078)
by HankP

and thanks for the post. Pay no attention to the free market fanatics around here, they think the market will solve every problem until it doesn't, in which case they'll blame government intervention.

FWIW, I think we're in a 3 - 5 year period that could be considered the peak of peak oil. The main reason I think so is because of the vast numbers of new wells being put in service, yet the total production seems to have hit a maximum. This may get shifted a few years based on increased exploitation of existing fields, but the fact is that most superfields have peaked, and there just aren't any discoveries being made that will fill in for a field like Cantarell in Mexico or Ghawar in Saudi Arabia. The free market will do what it does, which is increase prices in response to high demand and shrinking supply. That will encourage new supplies, but not to the tune of 21 million barrels per day, which is what we're currently using. The result will be interesting, but not in a good way.

FYI, when you compose posts only use {enter} at the end of paragraphs, otherwise the formatting gets funky.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Thanks (#66130)
by Floater

I'm new to The Forvm but I used to drop by tacitus every now and then. I got really busy for a while and stopped and the place up and disappeared. Still pretty busy but I'll try to drop by more often for the interesting conversations.

Are we at peak oil yet? (#66077)
by Weyland

Don't think so. At any rate, it won't be clear we've hit peak oil until it's already a bit behind us.

The current high oil prices appear have more to do with market uncertainty and jitters. It quite possible that the current prices will decline, at least for a while.

Biofuels and alternative energy can replace oil but again
there is a long lead time before they can make a significant
contribution.

Biofuel - no. See the diary directly before yours. Biofuel is a 0.01% solution. Food's a bit more important than filling up the gas tank.

Which alternative energy source do you see that can replace petroleum? Long lead time or not, none of the solar energy driven alternative technologies will realistically produce the necessary energy density to provide a petroleum fuel replacement in quantity (I'm assuming you're thinking of a hydrogen fuel system) High quality geothermal sources are hard to come by, and are better used for district heating or combined heat&power.

The only alternatives I see are Fission (which has its own problems) Fusion (which may never pan out) space based microwave arrays (AGW, here we come) or some yet to be discovered handwavium energy source. Sad to say, I'm far less optimistic than you appear to be about our future energy choices.

--

For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise - B. Franklin

Well it's like this (#66131)
by Floater

Sad to say, I'm far less optimistic than you appear to be about our future energy choices.

We may indeed be screwed. But optimism (as long as it doesn't lead to complacency) is the state I would prefer to go through life in.

As for future energy choices I agree that nothing on the immediate horizon could replace our current petroleum usage. The thing to concentrate on is "current usage". Automotive fuel economy has declined slightly over the last 20 years in the US even though powertrains have become 40% more efficient. Instead of using the efficiency gains to improve mileage the vehicles just got bigger. That trend can be reversed. A number of new engine technologies look like they could improve engine efficiency by another 30 to 40%. Nothing terribly difficult about any of these steps. I agree that corn based ethanol is a boondoggle and while other types of biofuel are better none of them can replace petroleum. But they can supplement it and combined with efficiency improvements it buys us time to find something else.

Good grief. (#66065)
by Bernard Guerrero

Three guesses why the Chinese have experienced gas shortages, sparky. I'll give you a hint: an old holding of mine that's quoted under the symbol PTR doesn't make much money selling gas in China...because of the price controls. :^) All else follows like night after day.

--

The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. -Herbert Spencer

Repeating the comment (#66066)
by Floater

that I made to the another poster. Did you even read the post? If you did you're not thinking things through all the way.

The shortages in China are for refined products due to price controls which discourage refiners from maximizing output of refined products. If the price controls are lifted they will boost output which will increase the pressure on crude supplies. Since there is currently no more supply to be had crude prices will go up.

Whoops, did I just fall for (#66026)
by corky

a new incarnation of statusquobuster ? ;)

Was he given the boot and recreated an account 2 hours ago?

Or is this just a lurker turned poster?

--

Envy was once considered to be one of the deadly sins before it became one of the most admired virtues under its new name, social justice. --Thomas Sowell

Be nice (#66079)
by HankP

as they said in Animal House, "We need the dudes".

--

I blame it all on the Internet

BLASPHEMY (#66080)
by corky

"We need the dues"

--

Envy was once considered to be one of the deadly sins before it became one of the most admired virtues under its new name, social justice. --Thomas Sowell

Well, we need both (#66081)
by HankP

see, I'm trying to find common ground here.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

You're wrong about everything (#66025)
by corky

...IMHO ;)

I don't understand why people get so worried about this kind of stuff...as if oil was suddenly going to run out tomorrow and we'd have no way to heat our homes, get to work, bomb our enemies, etc.

First of all, if oil continues to go higher, then the more expensive reserves of it (shale, etc) will actually become more profitable and the supply will increase, thus mediating the price a bit. We aren't running out of oil.

If, however, there is a fixed amount of oil in the world (which is up for debate) then, over a long period of time, the price will continue to go up and alternate energy sources will be used. The reason wind/solar aren't widely used right now is because they just aren't cost-effective. As oil prices go up, they will be.

Your solution, to a problem which doesn't exist, is to have the government start passing laws that force us to use these costly technologies. The only reason I might be for these measures is for national security purposes (alleviate the influence of oil-rich nations over us). Instead of the most simple solution however, a tax on oil, we get something else: corn subsidies, corn subsidies, and more corn subsidies.

Your savior, the government, at work...

--

Envy was once considered to be one of the deadly sins before it became one of the most admired virtues under its new name, social justice. --Thomas Sowell

If WHAT? (#66034)
by M Aurelius

If, however, there is a fixed amount of oil in the world (which is up for debate)

How is this up to debate? It should be obvious that there is a fixed stock of oil, unless you think oil is being produced somewhere in substantial quantities. I'd sure like to see that theory.

You can say that there is more oil or less oil. You can say we are at or have passed peak oil, or that peak oil will come in 50 years or 100, when it won't matter because we will have some other X technology.

But what you definitely cannot say (and be taken seriously), is that there isn't a fixed amount of oil in the world. There is. And whatever it is, there is less and less of it every day.

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Of course not!

Abiotic Oil (#66153)
by Irving

It should be obvious that there is a fixed stock of oil, unless you think oil is being produced somewhere in substantial quantities. I'd sure like to see that theory.

Your wish: LINK

You know, there's a theory out there for most everything.

Including this: LINK

Does that mean you believe in those theories? (#66156)
by Davinci

nt...

--

Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your

Nope (#66212)
by Irving

M.A. just said he'd sure like to see them...

There isn't a fixed amount of oil, (#66058)
by Bird Dog

at least when it comes to the markets. As oil prices rise, more oil is economically available from other sources. Take the Canadian oil sands, for instance, or Brazil's latest discovery.

Floater's analysis about oil prices is fatally flawed in three respects. One, the aforementioned. Two, part of the rise in oil prices is due to the weakening dollar, which has been going on for about a year or so. Three, refining capacity is near or at capacity, and oil producers don't seem especially motivated to add to this capacity. None of this should mean that we forego the nuclear option, of course.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

A couple of holes in your argument (#66059)
by Floater

Take the Canadian oil sands, for instance, or Brazil's latest discovery.

It's true that tar sands and deep water are providing new sources of oil. Unfortunately they have not been coming online as fast as conventional supplies are depleting.

Two, part of the rise in oil prices is due to the weakening dollar

Sure. But there is still a supply constraint.

Three, refining capacity is near or at capacity, and oil producers don't seem especially motivated to add to this capacity.

You have cause and effect backwards. Refineries represent a huge capital outlay and many years are required to recoup the investment. The industry is concerned that it will not be able to recover their investments because crude supplies will be declining in the future and even current refineries won't have enough feedstock to operate at full capacity.

Supply (#66060)
by Bird Dog

Going by EconBrowser, supply is depleting in the North Sea but growing in Canada. The Saudis cut production but the Russians made for most of it. In essence, supply is generally unchanged but demand keeps increasing, thanks mostly to China. I'll grant you that the prices reflect supply issues, but they also reflect uncertainty, both geological and political. We are "blessed" with having oil-rich nations that are unstable. Even Mexico is having problems, the latest episdode being a small group of Marxists that blew up vital supply lines.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Thanks (#66067)
by Floater

That Econbrowser link was very good. His last comment sums things up pretty nicely

But what's going to change the situation? Unfortunately, that's a harder question.

I lean towards there being a fixed amount (#66039)
by corky

I wasn't trying to suggest that there wasn't...only that it was up for some debate:

http://www.nature.com/news/2004/040913/full/news040913-5.html
http://www.llnl.gov/str/JulAug05/Fried.html

--

Envy was once considered to be one of the deadly sins before it became one of the most admired virtues under its new name, social justice. --Thomas Sowell

feasibility (#66053)
by pjotrk

Let's assume that there is indeed a reserve of methane and even oil in the mantle and that we ignore
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/100404_abiotic_oil.shtml

Would it need less or the same kind of investment as the present rigs or would you expect it to be a far more expensive operation seeing as that it would need drilling 10 Km's deep and deeper. If you agree that it would be more expensive then wouldn't you also expect that to push the price up even more?
Which leads me to ask you how much would you find to much for a gallon of fuel and would mean that you wouldn't use a car or at least switch to a car that isn't a guzzler?

When, not if, that happens, do you honestly think that the world at large should continue to subsidize the American want to waste resources? Would it not have been beneficial if the government had started a plan that would have encouraged people to make the right choices and discourage the making, selling and using of Hummers and those good for nothing look-me-big-sportsman SUV's that burn lots of fuel but can hardly handle cobblestones let alone rough terrain.

I don't think your questions are very connected (#66057)
by corky

But I'll respond anyway!

pjotrk wrote:
Would it need less or the same kind of investment as the present rigs or would you expect it to be a far more expensive operation seeing as that it would need drilling 10 Km's deep and deeper. If you agree that it would be more expensive then wouldn't you also expect that to push the price up even more?

I have no idea how much it would cost, but I assume it would be hella expensive to drill that deep. The links were only there to point out that some have said that oil could have come from non-organic processes.

And, no, this does nothing to "drive up" prices. The price would go up due to a smaller supply of the oil we currently do have access to or increased demand in that oil. Drilling "10 km down" would only effect prices if the current supply/demand price point rose enough to make it profitable.

Which leads me to ask you how much would you find to much for a gallon of fuel and would mean that you wouldn't use a car or at least switch to a car that isn't a guzzler?

I have no idea, but the price isn't at that point yet for me, even though I don't drive a guzzler. I'm sure it's already at that point for others, though, and that they have probably done something about it (drove less, bought a more efficient car, etc). I guess there is some point where I might start to work from home more often or take the train 300 mi to visit my parents, instead of driving there. Not there yet, though.

In fact, the train/driving thing is a great example. I spend 10 hours of my time, and about $100 in gas, going to and from Boston and Philadelphia for a trip home and have the freedom to use my car for my time in Philly. I could also spend $160 and take the train, have 10 hours of my time "more-free" than just driving (use a laptop, read a book, etc), and not have the freedom of a car for my trip.

If the price of gasoline doubled tomorrow (lol), then it'd actually be cheaper and a better use of my time to take the train. I'd probably take it every time.

This is all without the government telling me what the "right choice" is.

When, not if, that happens, do you honestly think that the world at large should continue to subsidize the American want to waste resources?

Just because I'm willing to spend more money on something than someone else is, doesn't mean they are subsidizing me. I don't get that logic.

Would it not have been beneficial if the government had started a plan that would have encouraged people to make the right choices and discourage the making, selling and using of Hummers and those good for nothing look-me-big-sportsman SUV's that burn lots of fuel but can hardly handle cobblestones let alone rough terrain.

"government encourag[ing] people to make the right choices"

If that sentence doesn't disturb you...

This is where faith comes into play. It is theoretically possible for a government to come up with a plan that could do all of this. It's also theoretically possible for the government to come up with a plan to do lots of great things for us better than we could do for ourselves...like pick jobs out for us, pay us what they think we should be paid, etc.

Given it's track record, however, I think it is extremely unlikely for it to do so. In this example, we are already aware of how dangerous our dependence on oil has been. Our response has been to give government money to Big Corn. The "best" method, a simple tax on oil, hasn't been mentioned by anyone, to my knowledge. At least, no one of large political import.

On that note, I'm off to get very drunk!

Envy was once considered to be one of the deadly sins before it became one of the most admired virtues under its new name, social justice. --Thomas Sowell

--

Envy was once considered to be one of the deadly sins before it became one of the most admired virtues under its new name, social justice. --Thomas Sowell

Two problems: (#66033)
by Punditus Maximus

1) If we could get away with fighting a couple fewer wars over oil, the families of the fallen would probably be cool with it.

2) There is no reason, theoretical or historical, to expect a gradual transition.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Did you even read the post? (#66031)
by Floater

Unfortunately all of these technologies
have a long implementation time.

We will find alternate energy sources. The question is how much disruption we will experience in the process and how long that process takes.

As for my solution I don't think I actually proposed anything specific so I'm curious as to why you claim that my solution won't work. For the record I think that subsidies for corn based ethanol is one of the dumbest things this country has managed to come up with. When I talk about a sensible energy policy one of the first things that I would propose is the elimination of those subsidies.

The myth of ethanol. (#66083)
by tomsyl

Anyone who thinks it has a place in our future beyond huge agribusiness payouts simply needs to consider the annual ethanol yield from an acre of sawgrass. When you factor in the energy used in fermentation and ethanol's 34% deficit in energy per unit volume as compared to gasoline, it's real easy to conclude that nature intended alcohol for drinking, not driving.

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Another reason to vote for McCain, (#66093)
by Bird Dog

given his position against ethanol subsidies (oh no, am I becoming a McCainiac?). Brazil is doing ethanol with cane sugar, and much more efficiently to boot.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Cool! I can agree with tomsyl & Bird Dog (#66138)
by Bill White

Ethanol is a scam particularly when it is corn based.

We have achieved at least one bridge across the Great Divide between Left and Right, at least on our case, here.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Good work Comrade White! (#66142)
by nyoos junkey

Now... while the enemy sleeps, let us sneak a cadre of crack troops across this bridge of yours. Once day breaks, we shall attack, and within weeks it shall all be ours! Lordsperson Howard shall reign over a brave new world of metrosexual gender equals, we shall drive from PTA meeting to PETA meeting in our hybrids and the bald eagle shall fluorish anew in a CAFE standard paradise.

I didn't know my comment on drinking instead of burning alcohol (#66277)
by tomsyl

would be taken so literally. %^>

--

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

could not agree more and when IOWA votes last in the primaries (#66085)
by Davinci

we might see change... Still it will be replaced by a pandering to some other state... :)

--

Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your

Yes, my reading comprehension is fine (#66036)
by corky

"Government policies could have been structured over the
last 20 years so as to minimize the transition costs"

was to what I was referring to as your proposed solution. That government is the answer. Look at the answers the government is coming up with...subsidies for ethanol.

You agree with me that it's dumb and that they should be eliminated, yet you still think the government is the answer. I'm guessing you think it's still the answer because the right people haven't been put into charge to make it so. You know there's a joke about communism in there somewhere...

Why you have faith that someone like you may eventually be put into a position of power to intend to do something about it (let alone actually doing something about it) is beyond me...

--

Envy was once considered to be one of the deadly sins before it became one of the most admired virtues under its new name, social justice. --Thomas Sowell

It used to be called red baiting. (#66091)
by Jordan

Here we just call it commenting on the poster rather than the post. "You'll never be fit/eligible to lead" certainly counts as a posting rule violation.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

Actually (#66042)
by Floater

your reading comprehension appears to need some work. Your apparent belief that you can read minds is another issue entirely. It's going to be difficult to have a meaningful exchange of ideas with you if you insist on making things up. And no thats not a posting violation. Your comment

Why you have faith that someone like you may eventually be put into a position of power

cannot be inferred from anything I have said.

I'll try again (#66043)
by corky

"Government policies could have been structured over the
last 20 years so as to minimize the transition costs"

Isn't that faith that the government can solve the problem?

Isn't the fact that the government subsidizes ethanol proof that "someone like you" is not in a position of power to do something about this?

I think my points are pretty clear, but I'll reiterate them anyway:

1) I don't think this is a big problem; you do.
2) You think the government needs to play a roll in "solving" it; I don't.

--

Envy was once considered to be one of the deadly sins before it became one of the most admired virtues under its new name, social justice. --Thomas Sowell

"Government policies could (#66050)
by pjotrk

"Government policies could have been structured over the
last 20 years so as to minimize the transition costs"

I, for one, would interpret that as meaning that the government could have helped to pave the way, to nudge if you will.

How you make from it that it was meaning that the government would solve the problem is beyond me. I guess I just don't have your grasp of the English language.

I'm done with this thread (#66052)
by corky

I have better things to do than to receive insults and argue semantics.

Like a fantasy basketball draft followed by friends birthday bash. MUCH more appealing...

--

Envy was once considered to be one of the deadly sins before it became one of the most admired virtues under its new name, social justice. --Thomas Sowell

It would help (#66076)
by Weyland

Mr. Corky,

For you to have another look at what was actually said. Yes, government could have helped to smooth the transition in the last 20 years. There's a variety of ways in which that could be done that have nothing to do with giving money to big corn. Floater has advocated no specific policy. Strictly speaking, you _were_ reading things into the diary that Floater has not said. So it looks to me like the insults were going both ways.

--

For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise - B. Franklin

Your points are not clear (#66048)
by Floater

and I think that part of the problem is that you don't seem to be familiar with much of our current energy policy. It's a lot more than just corn based ethanol. Direct tax credits to the industry, highway bills and military spending are all a part of it and those policies have been structured so as to promote greater energy use. If those policies had been neutral over the last 20 years we would be in a different situation today.

As for your continued comments about someone like you I'll repeat my request that you stop trying to pretend you can read my mind or know much about me from a couple of posts here.

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