Mitt Romney Really Is a Lousy Candidate

HankP's picture

(The use of "Romney" in this diary refers to Romney himself and his campaign)

As the Republican convention In Tampa approaches on August 27, it's becoming clear that Mitt Romney really is a lousy candidate. But it's surprising just how lousy.

 

Let's look at the overall environment. Romney is facing an incumbent who, while personally popular with the public has an underperforming economy and has disappointed or alienated various segments of the Democratic base.  Romney has behind him a largely unified Republican party who despises the incumbent and is willing to spend money and work hard to remove him. So to win the election (all things being equal) he needs to either make himself as likable as the incumbent or make the incumbent less popular; and he needs to attack the incumbent's economic policies and propose alternatives that at least appear plausible to improve the economy. In addition he needs to do the normal policy and proposal backfilling, presenting position papers on a variety of foreign and domestic initiatives for a Romney presidency. It's a measure of how bad Romney is as a candidate that he's only been effective at one of these five tasks.

 

The one thing Romney has been consistent at is attacking Obama's economic policies. He's lied repeatedly while doing so, but hasn't paid any penalty for it yet (and probably won't). But even in this, his attacks have been consistent but unimaginative and repetitious. There's a difference between being consistent and repeating the exact same thing over and over again, and Romney doesn't seem to vary his attack much. There's also the matter of offering up a viable alternative, and Romney has been lacking in this regard as well. His basic message of tax cuts for the wealthy is Republican boilerplate, and while (maybe) effective with Republicans has very little appeal outside of the faithful. Endorsing and adopting the Ryan plan (which is now the House Republican budget plan) was a big strategic mistake, it ties Romney to a plan that he didn't come up with and doesn't control. He should have allowed himself some strategic ambiguity as far as specifics go.

 

But compared to his messaging on economics, the rest of Romney's campaign has been a disaster. I'm particularly surprised at how completely awful Romney has been at public speaking. Most people who get to his level in business either have natural public speaking skills or invest heavily in their ability to do so effectively. If anything, he appears to get worse as time goes on, which may be the result of over-briefing (trying to juggle too many ideas when speaking). In addition, he's made some obvious gaffes that play into the "rich guy" stereotype, which he needs to avoid because he is a rich guy and lives a very wealthy lifestyle. Words like "dressage" are not going to help. He's also been spectacularly ineffective at attacking Obama's strength, which is his general likability among the public. Romney will probably never be as good a natural public speaker as Obama, but he really needs to pick up his game if he wants to be effective.

 

The other big problem for Romney is all the other policies, foreign and domestic, that he's discussed so far. It's all basically recycled boilerplate from the Bush administration, with the exception of his foreign policy views which were outdated when Nixon was President. An inspiring candidate might make a go of it with vague grand themes, but Romney is not that candidate. His whole campaign is structured around his being a take charge, hands on manager. People like that can't get by on generalities. Another thing I've noticed is how unprepared Romney and his staff has been for issues that should really be no surprise, like his tenure at Bain and their business practices. Ted Kennedy successfully attacked him on these same issues eighteen years ago. Add in the financial crisis and it's close to criminally incompetent that they still don't have a good response to attacks on that part of his record.

So can Romney turn it around in time for November? I haven't seen any evidence of it. It may be that there's no way to appeal to the Republican base and the general public anymore. Facing one of the weirdest collections of oddballs in the race for the Republican nomination probably didn't help, as it turned out he just had to wait for them to self-destruct or run out of money. That doesn't mean Romney can't win the Presidential election, but it does mean that he won't be taking advantage of any favorable trends in the political environment.

 

BTW, I just came across this - McCain 2008 opposition research file on Mitt Romney. No idea if it's genuine, but you might find it interesting. For the fun stuff start at the end.
 

 

 

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

How bad is Romney?

(#284181)

Nate Silver tells me that incumbent presidential elections are almost invariably a referendum on the economy. 

 

Meanwhile the US just posted its 3rd straight month of falling sales. In an economy that's 70% consumption, that pattern almost always occurs during recessions. So the US is at best on the edge of a double dip after only getting 1/3rd of the jobs back that were lost from the previous recession.

 

And Obama is still polling on top. 

 

My best guess is that the election goes to Romney b/c the economy will make it extremely close and Republican governors will bring home FL and OH regardless of who actually wins. Election forecasters are underestimating voter suppression and fraud to about the same extent that many macroeconomic forecasters underestimate the negative effects of austerity.

 

If that's right, the most likely outcome is Republicans in both the WH and Congress. Which is scary

 

You're way too negative

(#284185)
HankP's picture

it's very difficult to defeat an incumbent President, and absent some large unanticipated event I don't see any sign that Romney's amateur hour has what it takes to beat a pretty shrewd Obama campaign.

 

As far as voter suppression, I think Holder will be taking more actions like he has in Texas, since many of the voter ID laws closely resemble poll taxes.

I blame it all on the Internet

Nate had an analysis

(#284199)

Saying PA was the only swing state where the ID laws might make a difference of a point or two. If PA is within a point or two, then Obama has certainly lost... PA is one the bluer swing states. So I don't think it will make a difference.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

That's one area where Nate is a weenie

(#284204)

There are several, but Mr. number cruncher needs to look at what happened in OH in 2004 to have a more realistic picture of the world.

I had no idea

(#284220)

Ohio in 2004 had ID laws.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Wags the complaint is that Silver's models

(#284267)

don't factor in the kind of chicanery we saw in OH in '04.

 

Systematic lack of voting machines in Democratic counties. Outright obviously false vote totals, etc.

 

These things matter in close elections, they aren't easily quantified, but if they're ignored you're screwing up.

 

Another complaint is that the idea that the 2004 election could possibly have been stolen is probably too radical for Silver to even contemplate. As I say, he's a weenie. A good weenie, but a weenie all the same.

What happened in OH was that...

(#284236)
Bird Dog's picture

...Kerry lost, fair and square.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

I think we all remember the news video

(#284237)

featuring long lines of voters stretching around city blocks long into that rainy night at polling places in heavily democratic precincts. At Republican strongholds in the suburbs? not so much.

 

Bush won OH in part, because he had Ken Blackwell deciding the allocation of voting machines.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/opinion/26tue4.html

The Washington Post reported that six of the seven wards with the fewest voting machines per registered voter backed John Kerry, while 27 of the 30 wards with the most machines per registered voter went for President Bush.

Shameful!

 

And this year they're at it again:

 

http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/obama-campaign-sues-ohio-over-early-voting-restrictions-1.320837

 

Not your fathers republican party.

 

 

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Fiction

(#284238)
Bird Dog's picture

This is the left's version of the Birther Nonsense, thinking that Kerry won Ohio. Ground Zero in the race was Cuyahoga County, and the election supervisors (the majority were Democrats) confirmed that there was no malfeasance or error of any import. Kerry lost Ohio, fair and square.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Oh gosh, who to believe?

(#284242)

..you or my lying eyes, tough one. Not.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Heh

(#284277)
Bird Dog's picture

So you're going with the loony left-wing version of Birtherism. Noted.

The bottom line is that a Kerry operative or two made up vote discrepancies out of thin air on election night and the Refuseniks of the Left went with it. It was pre-Birtherism!

 

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

That op ed doesn't respond to any of the facts catalogued

(#284279)

in the Vanity Fair piece by Hitchens or the article from Harpers, many of which subsequently came to light after your linked op ed was written.

 

Only a hyperpartisan blinded by partisan loyalty or someone very naive would be unwilling to respond to evidence that a bunch of politicians tried to game an election.

Steno Sue, of Jesica Lynch & Whitewater fame

(#284287)

No thanks.

"Keating reported from Washington. Staff writers Paul Farhi and Susan Schmidt in Washington contributed to this report."

Yes, I'll bet she did.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Sure the op-ed doesn't respond to those facts

(#284300)
brutusettu's picture

but one or more Democrats said that Chewbacca lives on Endor so the rest of the stuff is surely false.

 

 

How was anyone outside the loop to know that Cuyahoga county had a running history of not random sampling ballots for recounts, or that other counties do the same? 

There were convictions for what happened in the phony Cuyahoga county fake recount, the workers did that to save time in the long run, it was an open secret to people who were part of the loop.

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

You can't take their word for it

(#284252)
stinerman's picture

The recount procedure asked for a random sample of 1% of the ballots.  Those were hand counted and then ran back through the machines.  If the totals matched, then they ran the cards back through the machines again.

 

Cuyahoga County pre-selected ballots that they knew would come out correctly.  I'm pretty sure some arrests were made.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

I speak from authority on the subject

(#284251)
stinerman's picture

I was a recount observer in 3 different counties in 2004.

 

1) Bush won Ohio.

2) Ken Blackwell, our Secretary of State, tried his hardest to make sure voting machines were overprovisioned in Republican precincts and underprovisioned in Democratic precincts.  However, I am pretty sure Bush would have won anyway.

The rest of the world looks at the way we run our elections and recoils in horror.  Partisan politicians run our elections.  This is very, very bad.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

Does that assessment

(#284257)

.. take into account the likely large number of potential voters put off by the long lines contrived by Blackwell?

Partisan control of the process wouldn't matter if the electorate weren't so polarized, leading to close elections that stress the system and open the door to 'dirty tricks' in the few competitive States/seats. So who can we point the finger at for polarizing the electorate & who seems to benefit more from the current situation?

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

With all due respect

(#284266)

"I am pretty sure Bush would have won anyway" is not very convincing. 

 

There's been plenty of respectable research on this and if you're unaware of it, I'm happy to link to it. What you are saying comes across as a personal hunch, which is neither here nor there. 

 

BD is obviously entirely ignorant of this research b/c he compares the idea of widespread election fraud and suppression in OH 2004 to birtherism, about which not a single respectable article has been puiblished.

 

In contrast check either here or here.

 

Since I'm not a hyperpartisan or political naife, I have no trouble believing politicians play dirty. I would have no trouble believing Democrats cheat during elections, I just haven't seen significant evidence of it (tho Darth had the beginnings of some rather limited examples in PA the other day).

 

FL's governor has not been shy that he intends to disenfranchise to whatever extent possible, and what incentive does the GOP have not to cheat in '12 in in OH precisely the ways they cheated in '04, given that they paid no political price for doing so?

 

For these reasons I believe that a close election as measured by polling (don't ask me exactly how close, I don't know) will go to the GOP in both those states.

Logical disconnect

(#284278)
Bird Dog's picture

The epicenter of the controversy was Cuyahoga County, and Board of Elections was controlled by Democrats. Those very Democrats on the board, to this day, affirm the accuracy of the totals. Blackwell I'm sure makes a good oogedy-boogedy man for fraud allegations, but they hold no water. This is why the controversy only exists among the nutjobs such as Palast, freepress, etc.

 

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Sure, nutjobs like Christopher Hitchens

(#284280)

Your understanding of the controversy as solely surrounding Cuyahoga county is a complete misunderstanding. 

 

Some estimates have suggested that state-wide long lines in OH caused 2-3% of the population not to vote. I personally waited in line for nearly 4 hrs. and saw several people get fed up and leave in Franklin county, a Democratic stronghold.

 

As the linked pieces point out, the vast majority of long lines were in Democratic counties, and there significant discrepancies in voter machines per registered voter in Democratic vs. Republican counties.

 

Just b/c it sounds weird and leftist to talk about voter fraud and suppression by Republicans in OH in 2004 doesn't make it false. Anyone who expects different in '12 is displaying ignorance. The GOP still plays to win. 

 

 

No substance

(#284286)
Bird Dog's picture

Lots of insinuations and anecdotes, but no substance. Face it, catch, Bush got more votes, in part because Kerry was such an inept candidate. The initial exit polls gave the Left a false sense of victory and they just can't let it go. Not surprising that Crispin Miller is a signatory 9/11 Truther.

Think about what you just said about Franklin County. It's a Democratic stronghold. Why would the Board of Elections want to disenfranchise a good liberal like yerself?

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

I linked to two pieces above that contain

(#284290)

much more than insinuations and isolated anecdotes. I shared my anecdote just so you'd know what got me wondering about the issue.

 

If you don't want to read these pieces, fine.

 

But stop pretending you know anything about the issue if you won't read a popular article or two in Vanity Fair/Harper's when someone presents them to you.

 

In response to your direct question re: Franklin county, Democrats did not enjoy a majority on the local Board of Elections - there were an equal # of Republicans and Democrats.

 

No one knows why the board sent thousands of voting machines to the Republican suburbs of Columbus and had Democratic leaning areas waiting in long lines.

 

If it were an isolated incident, I wouldn't think much of it. But the pattern is pretty clear (again, see above). The only question is whether enough votes were compromised such that Republicans "stole" the 2004 election.

 

I've never bothered to do the math to make any kind estimate. But Bush only officially carried Ohio by a little over 100k votes and there's very plausible evidence (try seeing above) of gaming the system to the tune of tens of thousands of votes. So it's entirely within the realm of probability and therefore possibility that Republicans stole the 2004 election.

 

Very radical ideas, here. I'm sure you can just dismiss them as too weird and leftist regardless of their merit. 

 

I'm not actually trying to grind some political axe here at all. I'm merely saying these facts are relevant to estimating the winner in Nov '12. 

I read them

(#284347)
Bird Dog's picture

It remains that Bush got more votes than Kerry in Ohio. The articles raise questions, but they don't change the outcome. 

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

The articles show likely cheating in the 10s of thousands

(#284364)

of votes. And that's just the fraud and suppression that was obvious enough to detect. "Raising questions" is much too weak.  

 

Personally I never cared about the "stolen" angle tho b/c Bush got the popular vote in 2004. He deserved to win.  

 

But that doesn't change the fact that there's reason to believe that tight elections will likely go to the GOP in OH and FL, and perhaps other GOP controlled states this year - historical and recent evidence suggests they'll cheat. 

You keep saying that

(#284284)

"the epicenter of the controversy was Cuyahoga County" where's your proof?

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

they are in no position to affirm the accuracy

(#284296)

I don't understand why you are so willing to trust this Board of Elections. Without a 'paper trail' of physical evidence, they are in no position to affirm the accuracy of the count. One shouldn't be afraid to insist on something more reliably solid than their say so, even at the risk of being called a nutjob.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Is it your position

(#284320)
stinerman's picture

That Blackwell did not deliberately and knowingly try to re-provision voting machines in such a way that would maximize the likelihood that voters who were likely to vote for Kerry would have to wait longer than those who were likely to vote for Bush?

 

There is plenty of evidence on this subject.

 

I'm saying he did, but he didn't need to.  Catchy disagrees on the latter point.

 

Does it bother you in any way when an elections official tries to interpret the law in ways that will best favor a chosen candidate?

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

So...

(#284348)
Bird Dog's picture

...county boards of elections have no say in the placement of voting machines? 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

The way I understand it

(#284392)
stinerman's picture

They have the authority to place machines that have already been disbursed, but if they ask for more, that goes through the SoS.  Being that the 2004 election was incredibly controversial, there were a lot more machines needed.  For the record, Franklin County's chief elections officer, Matt Damschroeder, was also chairman of the Republican Party in the same county.

 

I recall speaking to an election board officer in Greene County and he said that they did drop the ball on the voting machines themselves.  They said that they saw a dramatic increase in registration but didn't think that would translate into the need of more machines.

 

My several questions still stand.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

I agree about catchy's negativity

(#284200)
Jay C's picture

While domestic economic policies (including healthcare issues) probably will be the main driver in this election,  I think the Romney campaign will have to come up with some sort of viable (i.e. palatable-to-the-public) alternative program outside of the same-old, same-old "tax-cut" mania and "spending" hysteria. What the GOP team is offering the country as an economic alternative seems to be a variety - albeit self-imposed - of the "austerity" programs currently afflicting so many countries in Europe, and I don't see that these are (or will be) any more popular here than they are over there. "Throw the bums out!" is, of course, a tried-and-true political rallying-cry: the problem is, one has to have a credible slate of new bums to offer up. And so far, ISTM the Romney campaign is falling short. For now.

 

BTW, I have a feeling that, given the recent brouhaha, the Republican campaign will probably want (if they haven't already) to shift the focus of Romney's pitch away from the purely "economic" and back to "social" issues, i.e. the usual "God, guns and gays" hatemongering: with a hefty dose of abortion-hysteria on top to stir up the tribalistic politics (in the Rwandan sense) out there in the "Heartland". It's pretty thin ice, I think: too much overt bigotry will probably scare away an unacceptably large segment of the "undecideds", but what else have they got? Besides, a platform of economic royalism with a facade of prejudice and religious mania has always worked for them in the past: if Mitt's poll numbers don't substantively improve post-Convention, they won't have much in the way of options.

Same old policies on everything

(#284218)
HankP's picture

they're counting on Obama to lose, they're not fighting to win. That's a lousy strategy for a non-incumbent.

I blame it all on the Internet

Whereas my read is that campaigns are largely epiphenomena

(#284205)

and that Carter and Bush I show all you need is a lousy economy not to get re-elected.

 

An optimistic point is that I thought Obama would already be losing in an economy with 1% GDP growth and job growth that isn't keeping pace with the population. But here we are and Obama has a slight lead in the polls. Romney is a terrible candidate. 

 

I still say Obama loses, but my lean in that direction is very tiny. 

Carter and Bush had more than lousy economies

(#284219)
HankP's picture

they were also much worse candidates in their re-election bids than they had been in their first campaigns. They also faced candidates who were much better at the personal appeal part of the equation and who broke policy wise from previous candidates of their party.

 

A bad economy is a big boost to a challenger, but by itself it won't guarantee a win unless there's some sort of exciting or at least interesting policies offered in contrast. Romney so far is just running on standard Republican policies, and it hasn't been long enough since Bush for that to be appealing to anyone but die hard Republicans.

I blame it all on the Internet

I Just Spent a Happy Half Hour Reviewing Gif's to Match Yours

(#284188)

 

...but alas, most are terrible things happening...I have a stove falling on a woman, but she's black and some people might find that bad, I have a TV falling on a white guy....but he's actually hurt...and various animals doing bad things...I have some Hitler Gif's but it is not yet time to invoke Goodwin's law...

 

So I'll let my gif's go...but I think you are far too pessimistic, Romney hasn't a chance in hell of winning.

 

I think.

 

I just hope we get a braver Obama for the next four years.

 

traveller

Romney is the least worst candidate out of a slate of...

(#284190)
Bird Dog's picture

...second and third tier GOPers trying to get nominated. This is nothing new.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Worse than Huntsman or Pawlenty?

(#284191)
HankP's picture

I know their campaigns sputtered out, but I'm not so sure that they would be worse candidates than Romney had they made it through, as far as their personal characteristics go. Obviously their campaign staffs didn't have what it takes.

I blame it all on the Internet

Romney was least worst

(#284195)
Bird Dog's picture

Pawlenty even bored himself while talking on the campaign trail.

Huntsman committed a whole series of missteps, starting with how he positioned himself at the outset. The Utah governor really was the more conservative candidate compared to Romney and Gingrich, but he let himself be painted as a moderate.

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

I think as far as personal skills go, they were better

(#284214)
HankP's picture

neither one of them was as stiff or odd in their affect when speaking. They may have had issues with the substance of what they were saying, but I think they came across as more normal than Romney does.

I blame it all on the Internet

Romney is like the Health Care Bill

(#284275)

People wanted something or other to pass, but the ACA in particular has no real core constituency.

 

It was what the most people could barely agree on and is basically unpopular. 

40% of all US households have an IRA account

(#284206)

Average Americans, you may have noticed that there is a limit on how much you or your employer can deposit into your IRA retirement accounts.

 

By law, the company you work for is allowed to deposit no more than 15k per year; you yourself can only deposit no more than 10k, often less depending on the type of account.

 

So, Average Americans, how did Mitt Romney come to have over 100 million in his IRA account?

 

If he were like the Average American, he would have to live at least 50,000 years in order to build up an IRA with over 100 million dollars in it.

 

I guess Mitt Romney just figures he can hire fancy lawyers who will find fancy loopholes so he can live by different rules than the rules "little people" live by. 

 

Mitt Romney: He wants to be your president because he believes he's better than you.

probably not that complicated.

(#284208)
TXG1112's picture

I'm not in the mood to defend Romney, but there could be a pretty simple explanation. In a nutshell, Romney likely put a bunch of Bain stock in his IRA when it wasn't worth very much. Most of that $100MM is may be legit stock gains: (via)

If Romney was given 100% of the stock of Bain Capital when it was started, he might well have stashed some of these shares in his IRA. At that moment, when Bain Capital was little more than a document of incorporation, the shares would have been worth basically zero. So Romney could have perfectly legitimately stuffed a big percentage of the stock of Bain Capital in his IRA and still not exceeded the $2,000 annual donation limit.

 

There are so many other open questions and shady dealings around his income and tax returns that his IRA doesn't really matter much as an issue. I suppose it's mere size will cause voters to draw their own conclusions. (erroneous or not)

--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.

Yup, it's not complicated

(#284215)
HankP's picture

I did the same thing several years ago. The only hard part was finding a bank that would let you hold private stock and/or warrants in your IRA (or in my case a SIMPLE plan). Of course when I say the same thing I mean I tripled my investment over 5 years, I didn't get 1000%+ a year for ten or fifteen years.

I blame it all on the Internet

I don't quite understand

(#284222)

I don't quite understand where the tax advantage is here.

 

My limited understanding is that he doesn't pay taxes on those returns now, but he will later, at regular income rates, when eventually he is forced to retrieve those dollars.

 

Unless he's planning on changing the law when he's president.

Connect the dots man

(#284223)
brutusettu's picture

He'll have a bigger say in how IRA payments are taxed if he's POTUS!1

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

Flexibility

(#284224)

While it's in the IRA he can move it around without creating a taxable event. So if stocks are a good investment one year he can move into those. If he has advance notice that some particular stock is going to crash (and yes I think people like Mitt do get such advance notice) he can sell it and lock in his gains (keeping them within the IRA of course) without having to pay capital gains during that year.

If he didn't take a deduction

(#284225)

against the Bain stock when he aquired them, then he won't pay tax on that portion when he withdraws it or assigns it to benificiaries.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Did Some Reading

(#284227)

This sums it up about as well as anything else does.

 

There are "pre-tax" and "post-tax" contributions and limits. Pre-tax contributions defer tax payments until withdrawal. Post-tax contributions, cannot defer tax payment at contribution and so are not taxed at withdrawal.

 

So Romney would have maxed out his pre-tax contributions from his salary, then maxed out his post-tax contributions from his purchased (or compensatory (?)) equity in Bain or Bain controlled companies, which equity enjoyed healthy growth, and which growth will not be taxed at all.

 

That. Is. Awesome. 

Romney should do a public information spot

(#284228)

on the benefits of IRA's.

 

Thing is, unless you are vulture capitalist just starting out, you aren't going to have access to the same magic ingredient Romney had.

 

 

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

I think you missed the last paragraph

(#284230)
HankP's picture

Earnings on all contributions are considered tax-advantaged, and fall under the 401k withdrawal guidelines.  However, after-tax contributions are considered fully accessible to the employee since taxes have already been paid on that money.

 

So he'll still pay taxes on growth in the account, but will be able to borrow or withdraw the after tax portion of the account since taxes have already been paid on it. I'm not sure if stock appreciation like we've been talking about here is considered "earnings" for tax purposes.

 

However, I should note that there are all kinds of 401K plans and not all allow after tax contributions, many companies and individuals use a Roth IRA for that.

I blame it all on the Internet

That's Definitely Less Awesome

(#284232)

And puts me back where I started. The tax advantage is slight, although the advantages mentioned above still apply.

Floater and Spartacvs got it

(#284226)
HankP's picture

one of the first rules of finance is that you want to do as much as you can with pre-tax dollars, since by definition you're dealing with about a third more nominal dollars than you are with after-tax dollars so at the same growth rate the pre-tax account will grow much faster.

 

You also have the ability to structure the payout from the IRA to beneficiaries in a way that it acts as an annuity with lower tax rates to the recipient. If the recipient is your spouse there are ways of taking advantage of additional deductions as well as rollovers that don't trigger taxable events. In certain states an IRA can be rolled over into a trust. There are a variety of ways that an IRA can be handled as part of an estate. And finally, you have the flexibility to delay or accelerate the payouts when the tax climate is less or more favorable. This last one is key, you'll often see "technical corrections" to tax legislation that opens loopholes that the wealthy can take advantage of as far as the disposition of tax advantaged plans are concerned.

 

Accountants do this kind of structuring every day, even for small business owners. It's one of the reasons that I have very little sympathy for wealthy people and business owners complaining about high tax rates, they can take advantage of all kinds of gimmicks that simply aren't available to regular employees.

I blame it all on the Internet

My other campaign commercial idea

(#284221)

was to depict a nude Romney singing "America the Beautiful" to his ding-a-ling.

 

So try and praise the above given its comparison class.

 

Also, my ad isn't alleging illegality. It's trying to put ROmney on the defensive over how his fancy exploitation of legal loopholes allowed him to play by different rules.

 

And really, how do you get stock in the 10s of thousands to be worth in the hundreds of millions several yrs. later? That initial valuation of Bain stock is shady. Legal perhaps, but shady. 

 

Romney hasn't followed the spirit of the law that everyday Americans follow.  

The IRA looks to me to be a central shady deal

(#284229)

And it's where most of his $ is.

 

From your own link: "the perfectly fair question ... is whether the "little or nothing" value that Romney attributed to the investments when he contributed them was actually a fair valuation--or whether Romney low-balled the value to dodge some taxes."

 

Reuter's Felix Salmon comments: "Several estate-planning experts said they know of others with IRAs of more than $100 million, but they are rare. Typically, they said, that occurs when founders of companies invest in their own shares, which then take off."

 

So Romney's in a select few and he looks bad. They should run with it.

NOTHINGBURGER! NOTHINGBURGER! NOTHINGBURGER! nt

(#284231)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

Agreed. It does look bad

(#284239)
TXG1112's picture

If the Obama campaign does use it they should go with something along the lines of "How _did_ he get that $100MM dollars? It's irresponsible not to speculate." I think a dose of innuendo will go a long way in this case and doesn't need a lot of explanation.

 

--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.

They don't even need to do that

(#284270)
HankP's picture

everyone who has a 401K or IRA or Roth IRA knows that there are limits on contributions and they're in the tens of thousands of dollars rather than millions of dollars. Just the number itself tells people that something fishy happened.

 

Or, to put it simply, no matter how much of a f(*king genius you are you'll never wind up with $100 million in a 401K without pulling some kind of shady deal.

I blame it all on the Internet

Now this is truly frightening

(#284209)

 

John McCain today.

 

I Didn’t Pick Romney Because ‘Sarah Palin Was The Better Candidate

Is that it, or were there follow up questions?

(#284211)

..like, are you able to offer specific examples of why you and your campaign team came to the conclusion that Sarah Palin was the better candidate? Should we just watch the movie?

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Palin was. Conservative.....

(#284212)

...attractive female governor who had everyone beat hands down until she broke upper lip to lower lip contact.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Yup, she got the GOP cheering

(#284213)
HankP's picture

but you're wrong about one thing  - it was the fact that she had no problem attacking, even mindlessly, that made her a hit with Republicans. She was very much in the mold of Spiro Agnew - never stop, never admit anything, just keep attacking. That kind of candidate rallies the base.

I blame it all on the Internet

Thanks Hank!!!! Great of you to say so

(#284268)

Personally, I would have admitted publicly to being wrong about maybe 2 or 3 things.  Privately, I'd say maybe 4 or 5.  My wife would tell you I was wrong on at least 10 things.  But yours is in black and white so I'll go with your assessment. 

Hear Ye all Forvmites, I am wrong about one thing.  From this day forward I shall be considered correct unless the subject is Sarah Palin's positive characteristics for the GOP.  As it is written, so shall it be done.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Jeez Darth

(#284269)
HankP's picture

I had no idea you were so desperate for public approbation.  Here's a few more

 

- You know your Irish whiskey better than I do

 

- Your replenishment models have created a revolution in military office supply logistics

 

- You are celebrated in Delaware to this day for successfully leaving the state

 

- Your comments here are usually not entirely wrong

 

 

I can keep going if you'd like.

 

I blame it all on the Internet

She was a better candidate

(#284216)
HankP's picture

issues about accuracy or truthfulness aside, she got the crowds pumped. She has very, very good personal presentation skills as a candidate.

I blame it all on the Internet

You have to love this headline

(#284244)

over at the Great Orange Satan:

 

"McCain: Half-wit hockey mom with knocked-up teen daughter better candidate than Romney"

"I've been on food stamps and welfare.  Anybody help me out?  No!" Craig T. Nelson (6/2/2009)

But that was after the fact

(#284247)
HankP's picture

granted not very long after the fact, but I can see why the McCain campaign thought she was better than Romney at the time.

I blame it all on the Internet

Better?

(#284249)

If Steve Schmidt is to be believed they decided they needed a game changer. Romney definitely didn't fit that billing. Still doesn't, the GOP isn't going to find a game changing candidate until The party manages to arrest its descent into madness.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Yes, for that and other reasons

(#284262)
HankP's picture

whatever else you want to say about Palin, based on her history to that point in Alaska she wasn't as weird and uncomfortable on the stump as Romney is.

I blame it all on the Internet

I do, actually.

(#284258)

Whatever her deficiencies as a candidate (such as having the IQ of a gnat), she was able to fire up the GOP base in a way that Romney will never be able to match.

"I've been on food stamps and welfare.  Anybody help me out?  No!" Craig T. Nelson (6/2/2009)

Don't forget the #1 reason ROmney is a lousy candidate

(#284276)

He doesn't drink.

Romney and the GOP Superpacs are out-raising Obama

(#284282)

Imagine how much money would be available if Romney were regarded with less suspicion by conservatives and were a more viable candidate.

 

But I wonder whether there's a saturation point of diminishing returns on at least Superpac TV advertising.

 

I'm in OH and see a political ad practically every time I'm near a TV. Aren't people going to start tuning these out at some point? 

It stands to reason that flooding every available media outlet

(#284289)

with your favorite kind of misinformation has a better chance of influencing casual, "low-information" voters. You know, the people who aren't sure how many houses of Congress there are, who think the President is elected by popular vote, who think the first words of the Declaration of Independence are "once upon a time," who can't remember what the Iraq War was all about, etc. 

 

Those people might, might, become annoyed the second or third time a Kenyan Obama ad interrupts Monday Night Football in late October...long after the rest of us are beyond exhausted & ready for the plane to crash and get it over with already.

 

(General rule of thumb in advertising: the people alert enough to get annoyed with advertising are not the people advertising is intended to reach.)

M Aurelius was probably right.

What the hell would you know about advertising

(#284291)

.

You know Don Draper?

(#284298)

Some people think of me as a handsomer, more gifted real-world version. Sure, those people are my mother, but she's probably right.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Heh

(#284301)

I remember someone said you were dashing at some nyc meet-up, so we've got independent confirmation of your mother's opinions.

 

Anyways, thanks for the expert answer to my question.

I've Seen the Pictures, You ARE Don Draper(ish)! But Smarter.nt.

(#284302)

Traveller

Oh you guys stop it.

(#284305)

I'm not a moderator anymore, and besides I look more like Miguel Ferrer with a computer tan. 

M Aurelius was probably right.

I haven't seen the pix, but I hAVE seen Jordan...

(#284304)
Jay C's picture

... but who am I to argue with Mom???

No

(#284317)
HankP's picture

vinteuil said that he was either gay or had a gay stylist.

I blame it all on the Internet

That's what it was.

(#284321)

I took that to mean "is inordinately handsome," but then again what my mom actually said was "why can't you be more like Don Draper?" I might've read too much into that "more like."

M Aurelius was probably right.

Don Draper is gay?

(#284326)
HankP's picture

that would explain a lot, actually.

I blame it all on the Internet

Nooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!! Agrhaaaaaa...Traveller Grabs his Head...

(#284330)

 

...in agony.....and falls to the ground as in a fit of twitchy apoplexy!

 

Well, I've recovered a little now...Back to cooking my famous (to me) French Ragout....beef and everything else fresh I can fine laying around...Yummmm

 

Maybe Mr. Draper could join me for dinner?

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

We just finished my golden curry

(#284337)
HankP's picture

1 lb cut up chicken, pork or beef*

1/2 large onion, chopped

2 bell peppers, chopped

1 large carrot, chopped

1 cup water chestnuts

2 tbsp golden curry paste (available at asian market, or you can use any other variety of curry paste)

1 can coconut milk

 

2 cups rice, quinoa, noodles or whatever starch you prefer

 

Heat oil in pan, put in chicken. Saute on medium high until starting to brown. Add vegetables and curry paste, continue cooking until vegetables are slightly cooked, stirring every few minutes. Add coconut milk, bring to boil, reduce heat and let simmer, uncovered, for 10 minutes. Serve with starch of your choice. Serves three.

 

* you can also use seafood, but in that case you partially cook the vegetables first and then add the seafood.

I blame it all on the Internet

Sounds Scrumptious...It Took Me Two Full Hours...Ahhh

(#284338)

 

...I bought a food processor but...it really seems to more make mush of my vegetables, so I hand cut them now....I have a great Santoku knife which is essential...but still, this takes forever:

 

Everything is approximations:

 

2.5 lbs beef roast

 

1 large Maui onion

 

3/4 lb of Pear onions

 

3/4 lb of Peas

 

3/4 lb of baby lima beans (you can never have enough lima beans)

 

1 lb of hand diced carrots  (everything is hand sliced)

 

1.5lbs of baby red russet potatos

 

1 large red bell pepper

 

1 large green bell pepper

 

1 complete head of celery

 

6 large chestnut mushrooms

 

6 medium to large white mushrooms

 

1 full head of garlic

 

1 packet of Lipton Onion Dip...Ahem

 

Well....I am waiting as it simmers.

 

This will feed me for a week along with a decent salad...most of it I will freeze.

 

I was a little depressed, (shouting at the foolishness of clients today...I actually slapped my desk with an open hand and it sounded like a gun going off...it scared even me, the client jumped startled...should I say, or confess that she was Vietnamese? Hummmmm).

 

But I feel pretty good now, I've done something useful...:>)}}}}

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

 

 

 

Holy cow that's a lot of food

(#284341)
HankP's picture

maybe we should post a recipe diary.

I blame it all on the Internet

Romney didn't even release all of 2010?

(#284299)

The Huffington Post maintains he left out some doc. related to his Swiss bank account

 

It appears the GOP primary process did not vet Romney very well.

 

Perhaps his rivals were scared off attacking his business or tax record b/c the GOP base, unlike the population generally, is extremely pro-business and anti-tax, even on the wealthy.

 

Could the same thing happen to Ds? Kerry protesting the Vietnam war likely hurt him in the general but wasn't an issue in the primary. Perhaps something like significantly expanding public $ for abortions could be another blind spot? Other examples welcomed!

Wait until the GOP base hears about Stericycle. :) -nt-

(#284303)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Ann Romney, not helping

(#284372)

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2012/07/19/ann-romney-on-tax-returns-weve-given-all-you-people-need-to-know/#comments

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

"We've given all you people need to know."

(#284373)

So enough with the impertinent questions! I declare, don't people know how to address their betters any more? 

M Aurelius was probably right.

LOL...Not Safe For Work...Bad Comments from There...

(#284381)

 

 

At July 19, 2012 1:03 PM, Blogger Aunt Snow said...

Nonsense. She's not a c*nt. She lacks the required warmth and depth.

At July 19, 2012 1:39 PM, Anonymous SFAW said...

I think the dressage horse and the therapeutic horses are not one and the same. Not sure which of them "earned" the $77K write-off, but the horse in London is not the medical one.

Outside of that, no problem. (With you, that is; Her Nibs is another story, of course.)

At July 19, 2012 1:42 PM, Blogger jurassicpork said...

Auntie, you owe me and the missus for two coffee-stained monitors.

OK, so by your rubric, I guess "@sshole" would also be out?

At July 19, 2012 1:49 PM, Blogger phoebes in santa fe said...

You know, I hate the "c" word. I won't even write it out and I am not at all shy about using every other bad word in the book. But the "c" word I stay away from, unless talking about Barbara Bush.

And now I'm adding it to Ann Romney. If anything, she's worse than her husband.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

 

So when a Brit or Aussie uses the c word,

(#284382)

they just mean that they have a deep, warm regard for you and your friendship?

M Aurelius was probably right.

Depends

(#284400)

On its own, no. But if used with a positive qualifier it could be meant as a compliment (clever, funny etc.) or just mildly insulting. But even if they don't use the c word, you aren't completely safe. They could use another word which you were unaware means the exact same thing but has a softer, gentler tone to it. In this case that word would be twat.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Come on guys

(#284387)
HankP's picture

just obfuscate words like that a little bit. I don't want us to get listed for profanity and have people start complaining that they can't read our site at work.

I blame it all on the Internet

I Get the Listed for Profanity Part....

(#284394)

 

...this was a straight cut n past job by me...I really didn't think I could edit it, so I didn't try.

 

Still, I could have gone to Word or WordPerfect and then pasted it back here.

 

I apologize.

 

I shall be more careful in the future. But it is the power of the C word that makes people blanch...what makes it funny.

 

Still, I understand now better.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

You can always edit before you hit "Save" nt

(#284396)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet