The Rich Are Winning and Will Destroy the Economy

HankP's picture

From an incredibly concise blog post by Henry Blodgett:

 

 

1. Corporate profit margins just hit an all time high:

 

 

 

2. Fewer Americans are working than at any time in the past three decades:

 

 

 

3. Wages as an percent of the economy are at an all time low:

 

 

 

and in addition, 4. Corporate profits just hit an all time high:

 

 

 

BTW he used a horrible chart, here's the same chart adjusted for inflation. It still makes the same point:

 

 

 

 

 

This is the tragedy of the uncommon. Just extend the trendlines and you can see where this is heading.

 

This is why the wealthy get killed in revolutions.

 

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Yes, I Saw the Blog Post Also...But You Did What I Wanted to Do

(#282707)

...but didn't, or couldn't...so I'm glad you did. However, it is an incredibly dense and fact packed post...just running though the charts and pictures was 36 clicks long...and you brough out the best of it...Kudos.

 

But there you have it...pretty clear.

 

And easy for me to understand...if people aren't working or aren't paid decent wages they can't buy nothing...so fewer people working yet, and so on and et ctera and et ctera and so forth in a downward spiral.

 

Suddenly everyone looks up surprised...!

 

There's no magic here, nothing to be surprised by, just bad social policy that in the end takes everyone down, the rich included, eventually.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

corporate profits

(#282723)
brutusettu's picture

is there a graph that shows real corporate profits per capita or per person in the workforce or per person available for work?

the other graphs kind of hint that per capita comparisons wont paint a much prettier picture of the job creators right now.

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

There are all kinds of graphs

(#282726)
HankP's picture

I put the one I did together here, at the FRED site. The interface is a bit tricky, but it's really very good for generating your own graphs. What you'd need to do would be to include two or more series of data, then enter a formula that relates them (like corporate profits adjusted by the business deflator, then divided by working age population).

I blame it all on the Internet

Isn't it funny how you can point to the waterfall,

(#282728)

you can point to the river, you can point to the canoe on the river, but you can't get the people in the canoe to connect 1, 2, and 3? Yeah, funny.

M Aurelius was probably right.

You could equally say the French Revolution

(#282754)
mmghosh's picture

could have been "managed", "if only" the elites had the sense to cobble together a plan with seeming concessions that could keep the proletariat happy and so forth.

 

It doesn't work that way, does it? 

I've heard people make that argument.

(#282759)

I find it somewhat plausible. The ancien regime bankrupted itself in more ways than one...literally, through debt-financing foreign wars; socio-economically, through frankly corrupt systems like tax farming; morally, by insisting upon retaining tax exemptions and other expensive privileges (corvee labor) for the second estate long after it had ceased paying for those privileges through in-kind military contributions; socially, through encouraging the Enlightenment and Romantic movements in art & literature which increasingly made the laws of the land seem outdated and inhumane (the First & Second Estates included some of Rousseau's greatest admirers).

 

The Enlightenment in France was partly an aristocratic movement, and its rhetoric about natural rights and so on was originally aimed by members of the Parlements and others of the 2nd Estate against the royal bureaucracy. In other words, the nobles deliberately inflamed the public against the King in order to push for advantages...they didn't seem to realize that they were awakening far more violent passions among their own "inferiors." 

 

So in a way, the forces leading toward conflict were "overdetermined" in such a way that no single interest group was really in a position to do anything to mitigate them. 

 

BUT, at the same time, when it came to actual conflict, the sparks that began the Revolution itself probably could have been avoided. By attempting to disband the Third Estate, and by amassing troops & mercenaries around Paris in June 1789, the King & his ministers set a course towards violent confrontation that nobody was in a position to prevent. If instead of trying (far too late) to assert royal prerogative, the King had found a way to deal with the Commons and perhaps negotiate a new Constitution, things may have gone much better.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Disagree. The "what-if" school of history

(#282774)
mmghosh's picture

ignores the POV of the individuals of the day, who generally do not have grand strategic plans, but are, rather, attempting to maximise short term gains.  There's an interesting school of thought that claims uber-grand strategist Metternich's scheming in Europe was the result of whom he was trying to sleep with at the time.  

That may be, but if you're on a course

(#282776)

that's going to see you decapitated within two years, I would think that even the most short-sighted opportunists might take time to reconsider.

 

I don't think there's a historical fallacy in saying that the king's error wasn't in grand strategy, but in basic, immediate survival choices.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Ok, I agree (sort of), but OTOH Hank's apocalyptic rhetoric

(#282820)
mmghosh's picture

is not justified by the facts - (I mean the wealthy get killed, revolutions etc).  So the unemployment rate in the west is a few percentage points above a recent norm.  Unfortunate, perhaps, but hardly paradigm-shattering.  

 

When you see that there are literally hundreds of millions in abject poverty, literally starving, with no jobs or prospects, exploited to the hilt - perhaps more so in absolute terms than any other phase of human history, where do you see signs of impending violence, revolution?  In fact, what is really striking - to me - is how peaceful the present-day poor are.

Bread & Circus's...Hey, Look Over There...Envy Your Neighbor

(#282821)

 

 

...make sure to keep him down because, if he were to advance even a little, that might show that he is superior to you....

 

Ignore those people in rich raiments on the horizon, they are so far above you that they don't even matter...(as they steal you and your children blind). You lost your intelligence and testicles a long time ago...so far back you can hardly remember. It doesn't even hurt anymore.

 

(but yes, considering the failures of the world to...not equitably, certainly not that...but even reasonably to parcel out the benefits & products of our labors...which produce the very capital by which you bind me into my subservience to your false mythos...is amazing for the false consciousness those people on the horizon have been able to instill in the weak minded)

 

As to your larger point, Manish, like sheep to slaughter, (Godwin's law again), or Jews to Dachau, the world's poor will march determined to their death with hungry eyed fatalism.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

Well, not in Muslim countries they're not.

(#282827)

We're talking about emerging trends here in the US because, most of us being American policy wonks of one type or another, we're hyper-sensitive to changes whose significance may not be felt by the general public for some time (or, let's not kid ourselves too much, in some cases may never matter to anyone besides ourselves).

 

Manish, I'm not even a little bit qualified to speak about globalized economics, but my very general sense is that we are living through a kind of strange reprieve where the massive differentials in cost of living have created a bizarre situation where exploitation wages in one part of the world are like manna from the gods, even a wide inviting staircase towards modernity itself in extremely impoverished parts of the world. Fundamentally, we are able to take advantage of a huge differential in the cost of labor in different countries. 

 

But I believe that differential is temporary, and the cost-of-labor differential is going to disappear within a generation or two. Eventually, overseas labor costs will climb back above transportation costs, and employers will once again have to go local to find exploitation wages. Or rather, as in China & SE Asia today, they will begin seeing costs climb, and will relocate around the world chasing a vanishing margin just ahead of ever-rising production costs they themselves are creating in their wake.

 

Here's my point: global production masks exploitation by exporting it. So we're living through a period of intense exploitation, but nobody realizes it because there's such an enormous difference between local & global economies. Consequently labor protections in developed countries are being systematically dismantled, labor movements in developing countries are nonexistent, and what is going to happen when the global cost of labor begins to normalize again? When current subsistence agriculture economies develop purchasing power along with a more normalized cost of living? 

 

We're going to wake up one day and find ourselves living in feudal Europe again.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Muslim countries, are, by and large, protesting peacefully

(#282899)
mmghosh's picture

if you want to talk numbers, in the largest Muslim societies - Indonesia, Malaysia, the subcontinent, even Egypt - the poor either don't protest, or do so largely peacefully.

 

Even Libya and Syria, where there was recent violence, it was not really a poor vs rich thing.  

 

Your thesis in the last section is correct, I think.  But enlightenment once achieved is hard to dis-achieve.  In that sense, feudalism is probably highly unlikely.  Having said that, it is also true that the governing classes will continue to ensure that the working classes are unable to engage in collective action - by demonising and stigmatising the very idea of collective action - attacking the idea intellectually, morally and of course physically - reconfiguring history to link it to historical examples of totalitarianism, State terrorism and so forth.

 

Perhaps the primary event is for the world's population to hit a maximum, and then begin contracting.  That would be the point at which the paradigm might change, when the working class numbers fall to the level that collective action becomes a powerful tool again.

Apocalyptic?

(#282829)
HankP's picture

When I see the trends, I know that some of them can't continue. The apocalypse is when those in power try to keep them continuing. Last time it happened on this scale, the US got FDR and other countries got, let's say, far less appetizing leadership. We may not be so lucky next time.

I blame it all on the Internet

Not always true...

(#282777)

FDR saved capitalism and was representative of a part of the American elite who understood that Great Depression type events were a risk to the entire system.

 

There is nothing more powerful than an enlightened elite class, but they are not common, or particularly durable. Still, there have been historical cases of import. Not everybody thinks in terms of maximizing short term gains. From FDR to Franklin, the US has a rich history of leaders who could see beyond the horizon, and act upon that vision.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

As long as generalized contempt for 'the other'

(#282773)

As long as generalized contempt for 'the other' (the poor, the outsider, the weak et al) follows roughly the (rising) graphs you've presented here, I don't think the wealthy have much to fear.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Back to the Gilded Age!

(#282791)
Jay C's picture

This might more properly belong in the Supreme Court thread, but the wealthy, in addition to having economic factors going their way,  have just gotten a break from our Highest Court regarding their abilities to manipulate the political system to maintain their privileges:  Supreme Court strikes down Montana campaign-finance law. Under the "freedom of speech" rubric , of course, bolstered by the excreble Citizens United decision...

I thought the branch of the US government

(#282792)

I thought the branch of the US government designed specifically to look after the interests of the wealthy was the Senate. I suppose the Supreme Court was originally conceived of as an impartial arbiter, but inevitably comes to reflect the quality of the men who chose the judges.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

No PPACA but two important decisions today

(#282794)

One, as you mention, was the Montana decision.  You and I differ on what the decision should have been,  but I think one has to agree that the liberal dissent (Breyer, Ginsburg, Sotomayor, Kagan) proved today that they don't care any more for precedent than Clarence Thomas when it doesn't suit their purpose.  Montana tried to just flat ignore Citizens United, which like it or not, is now precedent.  Freedom of speech (I don't believe fundamental liberties should be given scare quotes) has been incorporated as applying to the states since the 1920's, so there is no distinction to be made between state and federal law here.   The case was a flat out attempt to get a revote on the almost the exact same issue.

 

The other was the Arizona decision,  striking down key parts of AZ's anti-Hispanic legislation.  Kennedy, Roberts, Breyer, Ginsburg, Sotomayor.  Again, a good result well supported by the Constitution and precedent.   Even the SC sometimes has a good day.

 

 

It's not about freedom of speech

(#282795)
HankP's picture

it's about freedom of money. If you don't have a couple of million to donate to a super pac, what are the chances of your views being heard?

I blame it all on the Internet

Citizens United is a terrible decision; it is therefore also

(#282797)

a terrible precedent. To say that the court had a good day because it followed (its own) precedent is to avoid the question entirely.

 

The decision considers corporations "associations of individuals," when they are plainly not associations in the sense of a freely-governed society of like-minded people. Corporations are not democracies...they are not "one shareholder one vote," rather, the few individuals with the most money invested are the ones who call the shots. Thinking of corporations as associations of people is a fallacy, "utter nonsense" according to the Montana Supreme Court. I don't believe there's precedent, either: a wholesale fabrication by the "originalists" on the court.

 

The court also overturns Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce, holding that massive spending on behalf of (but not in collusion with) an electoral candidate creates neither "corruption nor the appearance of corruption." Basically, the court refused to entertain the idea that the political process could be compromised by money, unless that money is formally transferred into the accounts or otherwise under the direct control of election committees. This is a ludicrous, fingers-in-the-ears position for the court to take.

 

Just ask Montana. That state's long, factual record of political corruption stemming from the "Copper Baron" days makes an absolute joke of the Court's contention that independent spending cannot be counted as corruption.

In response to the legal conflicts with Heinze, in 1903 Anaconda/Standard closed down all its industrial and mining operations (but not the many newspapers it controlled), throwing 4/5 of the labor force of Montana out of work. Toole, Montana, An Uncommon Land, 206. Its price for sending its employees back to work was that the Governor call a special session of the Legislature to enact a measure that would allow Anaconda to avoid having to litigate in front of the Butte judges. The Governor and Legislature capitulated and the statute survives.

Yes, the court was legally correct to follow precedent. But it is a terrible precedent based on reasoning that is utter nonsense.

M Aurelius was probably right.

C'mon now

(#282803)
brutusettu's picture

This ban on me from buying a fleet of MC-130's and as many MOABs as I can is surely an assault on my fundamental right to bear arms.

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

Yikes

(#282808)
HankP's picture

on the one hand, I'm not sure I trust you with that kind of ordinance. On the other, it would likely lead to Ohio becoming even more of a smoking ruin than it is already. So ... coin flip.

I blame it all on the Internet

FYI

(#282813)
brutusettu's picture

MC-130s have a long enough range to make it anywhere in the continental US from here.

And how else am I supposed to stop legion of refurbished Tiger tanks sweeping around the historic swamps of Belgium, Illinois?

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

Illinois nazis are the worst

(#282814)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhozx819izU

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

What Hank said

(#282799)
Jay C's picture

in # 282795: the scare quotes were quite deliberate, as I, personally, think that the arguments on "freedom of speech" grounds against instituting (apparently ANY) controls on spending for political campaigns and/or "advocacy" are the rankest sort of anti-democratic bullsh*t: and that the net effect - to make* US politics solely a matter of who has the most money to blow on it - is an enormous step backwards in this nation's development.  YMMV....

 

 

*more than it already is, of course

 

 

ETA: What Jordan said in # 282797,  also, too... You go, guys!

 

"Neither corruption nor the appearance of corruption"?? G. M. A. F. B. ....

The Court Upheld The Part Of The Arizona Law. . .

(#282801)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .allowing for verification of immigration status of persons detained for other reasons. The vote on that part was 8-0 (Kagan recused herself), including a certain "wise Latina."

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Not Exactly Upheld

(#282804)

More like punted. They want to see how that part of the law works in practice.

 

Should an Arizona sheriff get in the habit of using lengthy status checks as a kind of de facto detention, the majority opinion suggests the Court would likely strike it down on some other, non-supremacy grounds. 

Detaining individuals solely to verify their immigration status would raise constitutional concerns. And it would disrupt the federal framework to put state officers in the position of holding aliens in custody for possible unlawful presence without federal direction and supervision. The program put in place by Congress does not allow state or local officers to adopt this enforcement mechanism.

 

So why not decide that question, which was raised at oral argument? The court points to the enormous uncertainties in how the law might actually be applied – a law enjoined on July 28, 2010, days before it was scheduled to first take effect:

 

However the law is interpreted, if §2(B) only requires state officers to conduct a status check during the course of an authorized, lawful detention or after a detainee has been released, the provision likely would survive pre-emption—at least absent some showing that it has other consequences that are adverse to federal law and its objectives. There is no need in this case to address whether reasonable suspicion of illegal entry or another immigration crime would be a legitimate basis for prolonging a detention, or whether this too would be preempted by federal law.

 

The nature and timing of this case counsel caution in evaluating the validity of §2(B). The Federal Government has brought suit against a sovereign State to challenge the provision even before the law has gone into effect. There is a basic uncertainty about what the law means and how it will be enforced. At this stage, without the benefit of a definitive interpretation from the state courts, it would be inappropriate to assume §2(B) will be construed in a way that creates a conflict with federal law.

 

 

They upheld it in general

(#282805)
HankP's picture

but said it was open to "as applied" challenges. So not a full endorsement by any means. I'm pretty sure Joe Arpaio will be back in court at some point in the near future.

I blame it all on the Internet

Drum Quotes Frum

(#282831)

Maybe the class war is actually a generational war

The long slump has revealed the preferences of the aging polities of the Western world. “Their overwhelming priority is to protect the purchasing power of incumbent creditors. That’s it. That’s everything. All other considerations are secondary” — including economic recovery.

 

We could jump-start the economy with a massive jolt of monetary and fiscal stimulus, but such a policy would risk inflation and pose a threat to retirement savings. So we don’t do it. We could borrow money to finance infrastructure programs that would set people to work now and enrich society over the long haul — but that borrowing would have to be serviced by taxes to which older Americans fiercely object. So we don’t do that either.

So maybe it's really the Baby Boomers, here and in Europe, who are maintaining a deathgrip on inflation and debt payments to the evident exclusion of all attempts to revive the economy. Steve Randy Waldman's original rant is worth a read as well. Arguing that "depression is a choice," Waldman outlines an aging polity that vastly prefers the status quo of entrenched wealth in the midst of a recession to any recovery schemes that might conceivably put that wealth at risk. 

This preference is not at all difficult to understand. The ailing developed economies are plutocratic democracies. “The people” do have power, but influence is weighted in a manner correlated with wealth. The median influencer in these economies is not a billionaire, but an older citizen of some affluence who has mostly endowed her own future consumption. She would like to be richer, of course. But she is content with her present wealth, and is panicked by the prospect of becoming poorer. For such a person, the depression status quo is unfortunate but tolerable. The risks associated with expansionary policy, on the other hand, are absolutely terrifying.

This also correlates with the fact that the Great Recession has been demographically selective. Nearly all of us (except the 0.1%) are losers, but the young & urban are losing a great deal more than the older and the well-established, who are just dealing with a bit less comfort than they're used to. The 18-29 unemployment rate is fairly apocalyptic in parts of the western world, but nobody cares because a) they don't vote, b) they don't make political donations, c) they aren't sitting on giant piles of secured debt.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Why don't the 18-29 vote? They are Busy Living Life...

(#282854)

...getting drunk or high, having relationship crises, getting pregnant or un-pregnant, trying to survive physically in setting up a separate identity...

 

These people are very, very busy.

 

You and I, not so much, or we are busy with being busy...politics, the yard work, Television...different problems and concerns.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

Coming from anyone else

(#282860)
HankP's picture

I'd accept that reasoning, but not from Mr. "partying with naked twenty year olds on a rooftop pool at 2 AM". The question is why do you vote, you seem to have more than enough going on.

I blame it all on the Internet

To Maintain His Cover Identity? -nt-

(#282864)
M Scott Eiland's picture

.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Nah, he already blew it

(#282867)
HankP's picture

his real name is Renfrew Hellespont III, heir to the Hellespont coat hangar fortune.

I blame it all on the Internet

They did in 2008.

(#282863)

In general, it seems to be for a mix of factors:

 

* They're highly mobile. Compared to the settled/retired elderly who turn out in a blue-haired horde come election time, college-age people are often moving around the country...going to college, working summer jobs somewhere else, moving to a new state/town to get a job, transferring jobs frequently, getting married, etc. Updating voter registration is just one more of a kajillion bits of paperwork to keep track of.

 

* Issues. The fact is, the big issues that get most people out to vote in large numbers don't affect young people as much as they affect older people. Homeownership, retirement plans, marriage & children...those financial concerns are at the core of most voting patterns, but very few Americans under the age of 29 are involved in those things yet. 

 

* Apathy/Stupidity. Even young people who might be inclined to care about the issues tend to be uninformed or misinformed about the political process and how it relates to them more than older, more experienced individuals. People who follow Paris Hilton on Twitter are far less likely to understand "marginal tax rates" than...people who don't.

 

* Priorities. Partying. Hanging out with friends. Getting laid. Getting drunk. Choosing a career. Finding a passion in life. Young people are absorbed in making decisions that are, in a way, far more fundamental and important to them than applying for a Roth IRA or picking a state representative.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Heh. Your last para reminds me what a great life Americans,

(#282896)
mmghosh's picture

especially the young, have.  And then you worry about income inequalities and mandates and what not.

Since Boomers are just starting to retire

(#282855)
HankP's picture

I'd say it's the generation before them who is maintaining their deathgrip. And of course it was the greatest generation that voted themselves all those benefits in the first place.

 

Generational warfare is just a deception to turn people against one another. since there are three generations of voting age at any given time, I'm not sure how one teases out whose "fault" it is.

I blame it all on the Internet

Jinx

(#282858)

.

Sorry, I beat you fair and square

(#282859)
HankP's picture

I can't help it if the study of philosophy has rendered you incapable of quickly explicating a simple idea.

I blame it all on the Internet

Got my doctorate yesterday

(#282861)

The best part was calling my dad afterward.

Now THIS Puts a Big, Huge, Smile on my Face...:>)}}}...nt

(#282862)

Traveller

Thanks guys

(#282874)

.

Speech! Speech! Speech!

(#282881)

Preferably on your dissertation subject, of course.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Congratulations!!!!

(#282865)
HankP's picture

are you going to re-register here as "dr. catchy"?

 

Seriously, though, congratulations and well done. Did you get a certificate suitable for framing?

I blame it all on the Internet

No, no. "Doc"

(#282895)
mmghosh's picture

Doctorate of Philosophy...in Philosophy, bitches! -nt-

(#282866)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Late to the party, but let me

(#282876)

echo the congratulations!

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

Awesome!

(#282894)

Now get a job.

 

I dare ya.

 

No, really. That's terrific.

 

Somewhere out there there are scores and scores of young and very young (and yet to be conceived) minds that will one day find themselves sitting in a room with you at the lectern and wondering how the next 14 or 16 weeks are going to go and at the end of it most of them will be glad they chose your section and no one else's.

Congratulations, man.

(#282903)

I'm sure I've called my dad a thing or two I'm not proud of, but never 'afterward'.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Congratulations! -nt-

(#282905)
M Scott Eiland's picture

.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Congratulations!

(#282908)

You are Dr. catchy now!

 

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Well done Catchy

(#282928)

Make that Dr. Catchy

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Congratulations Dr. Catchy!

(#282996)

nt

No, it's not

(#282857)

It's rich people and conservatives making sure the economy under performs and that people stay poor. 

 

Older Americans are more likely to be conservative and rich than the rest of the pop., but not much more so. Recasting as intergenerational conflict the problem of our elites and the portion of the pop. they brainwash with the media they own actually serves their interests.

 

Rather than "reporting" on the generational warfare, the more constructive thing to do is to engage people's moral sense of obligation to the young. Right now the "we're indebting our children" crowd has control of that narrative.

I find it more plausible than you do,

(#282868)

for the simple reason that the rich get richer when the economy is growing...the haves are losing a lot more in pure dollar terms with each passing month of weak employment and crappy consumer spending, inert housing markets, companies hoarding cash, etc.

 

So, cui bono? Who would insist on low inflation and debt service to the exclusion of all other economic improvements? Who's risk-averse and fundamentally uninterested in growth enough to prefer continued recession to the thought of even a quarter point of inflation? Elderly holders of debt makes sense.

 

That they also happen to overlap to a great extent with "our elites" means your point isn't entirely incompatible with mine. There are thousands of fixed-income seniors who desperately need things to get better (though even they would be hurt by inflation more and see the benefits of fiscal intervention less than the general pop.).

M Aurelius was probably right.

"Elderly holders of debt makes sense"

(#282873)

But they're a small % of the elderly is my pt.

Most of the elderly live on fixed incomes

(#282875)

which makes them more sensitive to inflation, and most of them derive some or all of their income from pension funds, mutual funds and other investments which can all be seriously impacted by any type of debt restructuring. 

 

I'm not sure how the actual numbers work out, but that describes a large segment of people who happen to be fanatical voters, so the hypothesis seems at least plausible to me. 

 

I think all of us are wondering why the die-hard insistence on low inflation & draconian austerity, and why any mention of debt restructuring (mortgage relief anyone?) gets you laughed out of the room. 

 

I don't think your hypothesis (ruling financial elites) gets us all that much closer to understanding who these people are and what they want. It's a bit circular. Yes, a small group of people happen to be largely responsible for these decisions. But why? What exactly do they stand to gain? Why don't they see the downsides the way most everyone else does?

M Aurelius was probably right.

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this.

(#282915)

Yes, older people, who have worked all their lives and are now on fixed income do not want to see runaway inflation throwing them irrevisbly to the wrong side of the bread line.

 

And that is somehow evil?

 

I would suggest if you want their money to invest in central government stimulated growth that you just be honest about it and tax them.

 

I mwean, to read you and catchy, it's as if the only way you can have growth is to have inflation. You do realise that the rate of inflation show be deducted from the rate of growth to give an idea of the real rate of growth in the economy.

Just trying to explain what a lot of people, economists

(#282919)

included, are having trouble explaining, which is why countries keep insisting on ultra-low inflation and austerity when those measures aren't helping & might even be hurting recovery. So this is an exercise in cui bono. 

 

We're not saying we "must" have inflation. We're saying why the iron fiat against stimulus of any kind?

M Aurelius was probably right.

Well the fiat against

(#282920)

inflation is built on bitter experience. It destroys the social compact that makes countries successful - 1. save (ie invest) now, so that you can enjoy the  fruits of your labours at a time when you can no longer labour.  2. Moderate your wage demands to your productivity increases, not your cost of living increases as the latter are insignificant. 

 

Sadly, loose credit (a form of stimulous) has meant we face the hard choice of either inflating or defaulting unpayable debts away. Default is a theft from the lenders. Many of them should have known better. Inflation, along with its other attendant corrupting influences, is a theft from lenders and from the savers and those on fixed incomes. For the poor in those circumstances it will be a disaster. People in eastern europe and Russia well remember.

The wayback machine...

(#282922)

http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/search?q=inflation

 

most of these seem to be from '43, the start of that mythical age of prosperity you lot are always refering to.

What great ads, nyoos!

(#282925)
mmghosh's picture

Use it up...wear it out

Make it do...or do without

 

But is this worth it, really?  Poor people do this all the time out of necessity, especially here.  And where does it get them?

 

Bernard would say you were nuts to follow such advice.

Obviously

(#282931)

they should engage in a campaign of massive deficit spending on consumer goods in order to lift themselves out of poverty.

Again, not advocating inflation,

(#282930)

just wondering why no effective measures are being taken to spur the return to economic growth.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Is economic growth really what you want,

(#282932)

because Hanks charts seem to show, that for corporations, it's pretty much there. 

 

So what would you propose, other than headline actions such as "no more austerity" or "stimulus now". Concrete actions that generate sustainable jobs in 1st world economies.

Above my pay grade.

(#282936)

I'm not that smart. All I can do is say that a) austerity plus bank bailouts clearly isn't doing anything other than stopping (or perhaps just postponing) an economic freefall; b) the dire warnings about the downside risk of gov't spending and demand-generation seem excessive, almost hysterical, and seem to have no basis in available historical examples, c) people who are much smarter than me think that some spending is in order, that focus on deficits is misplaced, e.g. Krugman.

M Aurelius was probably right.

What's wrong with stimulus now?

(#282974)

1st world economies need 1st world infrastructure. The US is currently investing a smaller % of its GDP on infrastructure than at any time since WWII. 

 

1st world economies need an educated populace. The US has fired more than 300k teachers since the start of the recession. 

 

Meanwhile the US has *negative real borrowing rates*, and a standard economic theory that appears well-supported by the evidence says that counter-cyclic government spending, and taking on public debt in order to relieve private household debt, are excellent ways to cut short a recession.

 

So, what's wrong with stimulus now? Sounds fine to me.

 

Des used to explain it pretty well: Extremely low borrowing costs, lots of infrastructure to repair and build, and lots of unemployed labor to do the work. If you don't know what to do in this situation, you're an idiot.

Nothing at all,

(#282992)

in fact I'm all for it. 

 

I'm probably much more of a socialist (in the statist sense) than you when it comes to industrial policy.

 

I don't assume that pumping money into an economy cures all ills, i think the stock market is a poor proxy for economic health and I realise that business is international and has captured national governments for the most part. 

 

Spending on infrastructure is a good idea since it keeps some of the money inside the country. I wouldn't assume that every road and every bridge is somehow and asset to the country though and generates a return beyond the kick to the economy generated by the money spent to build it. Some infrastructure spending pays for itself many times over, some acts as a sink for the rest of its life (though it might still be worth building as it might improve the quality of peoples lives).

The problem is demand destruction

(#282978)
HankP's picture

trillions of dollars were taken out of the global economy and as a result everyone is trying to de-leverage (pay off) their debt at the same time and save more. That's exacerbating the problem of low demand, it's a downward spiral that actuallly destroys productive enterprises along with the weak ones.

 

Despite what conservatives might tell you, the lesson of the Great Depression was clear - the government has to step in an create demand when business and individuals are unable to do so. The problem we face now isn't inflation, it's deflation just like in the Great Depression.

I blame it all on the Internet

Big scary 4% inflation

(#282965)

No, 4% is not so terrible. Over 20 years

(#282991)

(say from 65 to 85) it can do quite a job on a nest egg, but it's pretty ordinary as a rate.

 

I'm just not sure what it's supposed to achieve. I take it as a sign of overheating not a way to heat things up. How would your central bank stimulate inflation now anyways, beyond what they now have in place? 

 

I do also remember a few years of 20% inflation in the 80s. 

Everyone should be familiar with the downsides of inflation

(#282941)

It's massively and disproportionately covered in the media, as if the mere possibility of run-away inflation is supposed to trump the highly corrosive nature of actual long-term, high unemployment, and slashing social services. 

 

Greece has low inflation and MIcrosoft just got bombed. There are other things which threaten the social contract.

 

In the circumstances of Europe and the US, an inflation target twice as high should be absolutely welcomed by the poor, since it will spur depreciating money that is sitting on the sidelines into more productive and job-creating endeavors.

 

The hyper-focus on inflation worries, to the extent of being willing to suffer through a depression, can only be explained by institutions that care only for creditors' interests and care little to nothing for the population as a whole.  

Might go to job creating endevours

(#282949)

(over, gold FX or some other store of value) and might even go to those endevours within the same continent rather than in some low cost emerging economy that has some realprospect of double digit growth to go with their double digit inflation.

 

Sounds to me what you want is capital controls and a negative deposit rate of a few % points. That'd drive all that cash into something productive right?

Why go that heavy handed route

(#282952)

when 4% inflation would also help inflate away massive household debt?

 

In addition, the run-away inflation hysteria during a depression crowd hasn't explained why inflation can't be tamed when necessary through raising interest rates etc.

 

Finally, the run-away inflation hysteria during a recession crowd happens to be mostly comprised of the same people who missed the housing bubble and who have been wrongly predicting that inflation should've already arrived. Meanwhile, those economists with a much better track record say that the importance placed on inflation worries is entirely out of whack.  

 

So there you have it. What's the best explanation? over-emphasis on run-away inflation is a result of monied interests enjoying privilege, not a balanced view about what's good for the majority. The idea that inflation hawks are protecting the poor is ridiculous.   

Exactly

(#282953)

It's also the reason they haven't been aggressive about mortgage mods*.

 

Doug Henwood has been noodling on this, and arrives at more or less the same conclusion, but with cool charts.

 

 

---------------------

*Sure, the politics suck, too. That doesn't explain why cramdown wasn't put forward.

Lenders schmenders...

(#282973)

Lenders who lend at high rates, or investors who buy bonds that yield 500 basis points above what Germany pays, should know darned well that they are taking a higher risk of default along with their high rates of return.

 

You can't buy bonds with yields of 7%, or 10%, or even 12% as was the case in the developing world on quite a few occasions, and then deliver stern lectures on the need for discipline and honoring of debts, etc. I feel bad for small savers on fixed incomes who were sold junk debt, but they need to look at the financial institution that sold them the junk paper, because they certainly knew what they were selling.

 

Sustained inflation above 4%, even arguably 3.5%, can turn into a problem and eventually, after a few years, degenerate into a wage-price spiral. But we are nowhere near that, in Europe or the US, and deflation is equally corrupting. Wages are less flexible, so deflation leads to high unemployment. And nothing breaks the social compact like severe unemployment.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Agreed.

(#282993)

Ireland and Spain should have treated the bank bond holders according to their contracts before looking at any bank rescue. I say that as an x bank bond holder (I got out in time) and a Irish bank shareholder (position completely wiped out). The anecdotes are that that would have passed the problem on to France and Germany and their banks. It would have been just and apparently they have the money to write such a problem away.

The thing is...

(#283106)

...Germany said little, if anything, against Spain bailing out its banks.

 

I wonder why that might be...

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Indeed.

(#283109)

But if any good is to come of this it will be the halting of the United States of Europe project in its tracks. Nothing could be worse for democracy than the sort of superstate they have planned. Of course the crisis also risks driving greater integration at a higher speed. Pivotal times.

What's your problem with a USE?

(#283111)
mmghosh's picture

Putting aside my Swiss hat as you say

(#283119)

, and remember that I am also Irish, fundamentaly I believe that the larger a state becomes the less democratic it becomes. 

a few reasons:

 

1. Multiple additional layers of bureaucracy attenuate the will of the people. An "average" will is devined, which, depending how you emphasis it, can mean pretty much anything. Why would I even bother to pitch my vote with 500 million others? Debate is impossible on any real issue in detail in all the contexts of europe. The mandarins of Brussels will decide what policy will be and the people will rubber stamp it. Just like the commission elections, the commission is voted for by the people's parliament but there is only one candidate proffered for each post.

 

2. More "important" politicians require more protection and perks thus moving them away from the people and their daily lives. In Ireland I would often pass parliamentarians and ministers on the street walking their dogs and so on. This means to some degree they share our needs and priorities. It also means a pitchfork parade doesn't need to catch a flight to find them.

 

3. The head of state should have some knowledge, and hopefully some love for every corner of his state. Impossible in a Europe so big with so many cultures. The big states rule all and the periphery looses out.

 

4. I like the idea  of natural selection. Let 20 states try 20 different policies and see which works best. Then all can adjust. 

 

5. It probably costs less to buy a single european government than it does to buy 20 smaller ones but the benefits are much larger. This is a good deal for business and a bad one for the rest of us.

 

6. Many european governments have a short history of democracy and probably not much respect for it. I'd rather they get some more practice before they take the wheel. 

 

7. Have you watched these clowns - Barosso et al? X marxists, corrupt odd little bunch. I don't think they are ready to lead anything like a nation of hundreds of millions.

 

8. As the Swiss are now being bullied so will the other smaller nations within the EU be bullied as soon as the powers to do so are in place.

 

Honestly though - I don't think the people of Europe are ready for a european state and I don't get the sense it will be welcomed or loved. People enjoy very much the free movement of people and goods, harmonisation and standardisation. This makes their lives easier. Europe has also done a good job of curbing somewhat the environmental and corrupt excess of some member states. I see no reason why we should not continue with a Europe based on the active cooperation, where all benefit, of the nations and peoples of Europe. The government of Europe is a plan that benefits only the elite 

Economists say a currency union is pretty much impossible

(#283122)

without a powerful central bank/treasury...current events seem to bear that out. Do you think most Europeans would rather lose the Euro than give up more autonomy? (I understand the UK & Scandinavian countries have no plans to give up their currencies.)

M Aurelius was probably right.

Economists say all kinds of things.

(#283152)

Hobbeist put me onto Graeber's recent book which neatly demolishes their creation myth and their high priest.

 

But who knows, on this one they may be right. I can't help but think though that the problems of the euro zone have more to do with out of control bank lending than anything else. I don't see tighter union on tax policy, common euro bonds, centralised bank regulation,  centralised budgets and so on as the only solution to that, or even a particularly good solution since banks can be laxly regulated from the center just as well as from the periphery. Indeed it was the supposed masters of a common bank regulation that let their banks lend willy nilly into everyone elses property boom. 

 

But as to your question, if that really is the choice we face, then I would be surprised, once they really understand what is at stake, if they would not prefer autonomy to the Euro. But most people don't realise yet that we are moving quickly towards, for example, Brussels defining tax policy for individual nations.

Um, let me ponder.

(#283176)
mmghosh's picture

"the only way you can have growth is to have inflation"

(#282963)

That's not true in the US - we could address our growth problems solely through fiscal policy. If the US had added 1 million public sector workers rather than firing -750k public sector workers we might've seen a V-shaped recovery. We'll never know. 

 

Higher inflation is just one way of encouraging growth that our Fed ought to be pursuing b/c it has a mandate to achieve full employment.

 

Europe is a different story. European core countries should inflate with respect to the periphery so that the periphery can become more competitive. If you don't believe this, I would challenge you to compare the predictive records of the economists you read with the ones I read. And if you aren't keeping track of macroeconomists who are making good predictions, then I think you should change the way you consume economic information.

 

p.s. fixed incomes are indexed to inflation in the US. Higher inflation won't put older people on the bread lines. We've had 4% inflation many times in this country. The ECB and Fed's insistence on keeping it below 2% isn't a policy for the benefit of the poor. That's just a fundamental misunderstanding of the power structure.

France, Currency Zones and the Euro...(for Catchy)

(#282967)

 

History doesn't bode well for future of the Eurozone

Maintaining monetary union without real fiscal or political union eventually imposes unsustainable costs on someone.

Michael Hiltzik

 

Dear Catchy, I'd like to argue old people and inflation with you...but you've been positive on the Euro...what do you think of this analysis that has a certain resonance in me.

June 27, 2012

Advertisement
 

Any traveler among the former French colonies of West Africa in the early 1990s could have foretold the future of the euro. The prospects weren't pretty.

Most countries of Francophone West Africa were then, as they are still, members of a single currency zone very much like the Eurozone. Legal tender for the 13 countries was a pair of essentially identical currencies known collectively as the CFA franc — named from the French acronym for "African Financial Community."

France, which kept the CFA fixed at an exchange rate of 50 CFA to one French franc, had created the zone partially to maintain political ties for its former colonies, but mostly to maintain its mercantile dominance. The CFA kept Francophone Africa economically dependent on France and gave the mother country a convenient market for its products and a source of cheap raw materials. A mandate that CFA countries keep large financial reserves in France fattened its treasury.

By 1990, however, the relationship turned into a subsidy from France to its faltering former colonies of as much $3 billion a year. As the individual African economies diverged, the CFA benefited rich countries, such as cocoa-producing Ivory Coast, and helped impoverish others, such as Senegal, whose major exports included peanuts.

Two schools of thought developed regarding the future of the CFA. One was that devaluation was inevitable. The other was that it was impossible — partially because of the difficulty of keeping the momentous change secret so insiders, including government leaders, couldn't profit from advance knowledge, and partially because the resulting fall in working-class living standards would foster unrest across the zone.

Inevitability finally prevailed. France instituted a devaluation in 1994, cutting the exchange rate of the CFA versus the franc to 100 to 1, with predictable consequences: Workers whose real income had been cut in half went on strike to double their wages. Inflation soared and unemployment spread throughout the zone. Governments tottered. And Africa's overall economic prospects barely budged.

Sound familiar?

The lesson of the CFA for the Eurozone is that maintaining monetary union without real fiscal or political union eventually imposes unsustainable costs on someone — in the CFA case it was France, in the Eurozone it's Germany. The bill payer eventually insists on changes to lower the bill, and those changes typically fall hardest on the workers stuck at the bottom of the economic pyramid. Bondholders and other investors who reaped profits in the good years will generally manage to protect their investments when things turn down, often by liquidating labor costs through the imposition of wage freezes and layoffs. You can think of Greece as the Senegal of the euro.

None of this really comes as a shock to professionals in international finance. Indeed, you could fill Dodger Stadium — or more appropriately, Paris' soccer venue, the 81,000-seat Stade de France — with the experts who claim today to have foreseen the flaws in the euro at the time of its launch in 1999. But these were papered over for more than a decade, or until the flaws turned into cracks and, ultimately, crevices.

The fundamental flaw is that the countries of the Eurozone, which comprises 17 members of the European Union and a handful of non-EU states, are simply too diverse, economically and politically. As David O. Beim, an expert in international finance at Columbia University, put it last October, "Germany and Greece should not share the same currency." The former is a highly efficient, low-inflation, export-oriented economy, the latter an inefficient, inflation-beset importer of goods.

Beim notes that in the 15 years before these two countries were yoked together in a single currency, the Greek drachma depreciated 82% against the German mark. What made the euro's architects think that this powerful trend would evaporate with the creation of the Eurozone? Wishful thinking, perhaps, but this is one way in which the euro appears to represent the triumph of hope over experience.

Economic diversity isn't in itself a recipe for currency failure. Some regions of the U.S. bear the same resemblance to one another as Greece and Germany. (Think of the Rust Belt versus Silicon Valley.) But they're united by a nationwide fiscal policy and a single monetary authority (the Federal Reserve). Not so the Eurozone, where unified policy decisions must yield to the sovereignty of its individual members and where, contrary to the hopes and wishes of the euro's creators, nationalism has been rising, not waning.

The traditional way to resolve imbalances in economic outcomes among countries has been changes in exchange rates. Greece's currency should be worth a lot less than Germany's. If it had continued to fall relative to Germany and other exporters, as it had before 1999, then Greek goods would be cheaper for German consumers to buy, and Greek consumers and industries might wean themselves off ever more expensive foreign imports. The law of supply and demand would be in full force.

But the Greek and German currencies are worth exactly the same. Without recourse to devaluation and revaluation as economic tools, the only way to establish economic equilibrium for Greece and other importing countries such as Italy, Spain and Portugal is by pushing down wages and slashing their workforces: This is done through the "austerity" regimes causing widespread popular unrest in those countries.

Displaced Greek laborers are free to seek work in richer countries across the border, but the lifestyle of guest workers in strange lands doesn't have to be spelled out for them, and the prospects for growth at home recede even more.

The lesson of the Eurozone crisis is that when a mistaken policy goes bad, an increasingly narrow class calls the shots, spreading misfortune far and wide. Just as the future of the Eurozone could be read in the history of the CFA zone, the future of both could be read in an earlier attempt to yoke disparate economies together in a rigid arrangement. That was the gold standard era that led to, and ended with, the Great Depression.

Herbert Hoover memorably recalled the anti-recessionary policies of his plutocratic Treasury secretary, Andrew Mellon, as "Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate real estate.... High costs of living and high living will come down. People will work harder, live a more moral life." (There's some doubt that Mellon uttered those exact words, but they surely described his thinking.) An understandable reaction, among people who can witness the consequences at a safe and secure remove.

Recovery from the Depression began only when every country freed itself to make its own monetary and fiscal choices by shedding the gold standard. This was understood by both Franklin D. Roosevelt, who started the process, and Richard Nixon, who finished the job.

The record suggests that the fundamental question for Europe is not "Can the euro be saved?" but "Should it be saved?" Its purported virtues, such as the elimination of currency transaction costs among the member nations, have been far outweighed by the costs it imposes. It is also plain that half-measures to save the euro won't work — the wholesale devaluation of the CFA franc reduced its burden on the French government, but preserved economic imbalances among CFA countries and has done almost nothing to improve the West African economy overall.

Bankers and bondholders in Europe and the U.S. are fixated today on the financial ripples that might be created in international markets by the exit from the Eurozone of Greece, followed perhaps by Spain, Portugal and Italy. But no one has yet outlined how a currency that manacles together so many mismatched economics reaches a stable future, save through an endless sequence of bailouts. Sooner or later, the impossible will give way to the inevitable, and those countries will be left again to make their own way in the world rather than having their path dictated from afar.