US to leave Iraq by end of 2011


From the AP:

Iraqi and U.S. negotiators have finished work on a draft security agreement that would see all American troops leave Iraqi cities by June 30 and the rest of the country by the end of 2011, Iraqi officials said Wednesday.

. . .

The security deal is to govern the status of the more than 140,000-strong U.S. military force after the U.N. Security Council mandate for its mission expires at the end of this year.

Also from the article:

As the talks dragged on, American officials said the Bush administration was losing patience with the Iraqis. Bush stood by al-Maliki when Washington's Sunni Arab allies were privately urging he be replaced because of the government's ties to Shiite-dominated Iran and Shiite militia attacks on Iraqi Sunnis.

How can this be? How could the US "replace" the elected leader of a sovereign country?

. . .

So it looks like the difference between Obama and McCain on Iraq comes down to 16 vs. 32 months for the withdrawal of all US troops. Unless, of course, McCain decides to ignore the treaty and stay in Iraq until we achieve victory.

How will this affect the race? Will it help Obama, since Bush and the Iraqis have adopted a modified version of his position? Or will it help McCain, since no matter who gets elected we'll be out of there by 2012? I can see it going either way.
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I blame it all on the Internet

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I blame it all on the Internet

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I blame it all on the Internet

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I'm still not convinced its going to happen. (#111809)
by mmghosh

From Iraq Updates. A pullout by 2011 doesn't seem logical, in the sense that Mr al-Maliki's government is far from being stable yet, and there would seem to be too many US and Israeli interests tied up in Iraq. The necessity for internationally enforceable immunity to prosecution for war crimes for US troops also needs to be firmly cemented in place.

"There are still issues concerning exactly how our forces operate," Rice said. "The agreement rests on aspirational timelines."

Rice declined to talk about specifics, but U.S. officials said more work is needed to reach agreements on a timeline for U.S. troop withdrawals, immunity for U.S. troops and the handling of Iraqi prisoners.

In addition to spelling out that U.S. troops would move out of Iraqi cities by next summer, the Iraqi government has pushed for a specific date — most likely the end of 2011 — by which all U.S. forces would depart the country. In the meantime, the U.S. troops would be positioned on bases in other parts of the country to make them less visible while still being able to assist Iraqi forces as needed.

There are now about 140,000 U.S. troops in Iraq.

U.S. officials have resisted committing firmly to a specific date for a final pullout, insisting that it would be wiser to set a target linked to the attainment of certain agreed-upon goals. These goals would reflect not only security improvements but also progress on the political and economic fronts.

Israeli interests? (#111822)
by Bird Dog

When were Israeli troops in Iraq? What kind of deal did Israel hammer out with al Maliki?

On the troop withdrawals, combat brigades may very well stay in Iraq past 2011 because the withdrawals are conditions based:

U.S. and Iraqi negotiators have now also agreed to a conditions-based withdrawal of U.S. combat troops by the end of 2011, a date further in the future than the Iraqis initially wanted. The deal would leave tens of thousands of U.S. troops inside Iraq in supporting roles, such as military trainers, for an unspecified time. According to the U.S. military, there are 144,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, most of whom are playing a combat role.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Of course Israeli interests play a part in (#112095)
by mmghosh

US policy in the broad sense.

Come on, BD. It is definitely in the Israeli interest to have a weakened Iraq that is not militarily capable of supporting any Palestinian faction of any significance. And a US withdrawal would increase the possibility of a strengthened Iraq inimical to Israel.

I'm reasonably sure that reasons will be found to stay on post 2012.

Not so, Manish. Israel and Iraq have a long history (#112131)
by BlaiseP

They've built up a working relationship with Turkey, and they had a substantial presence among the Kurds, still do. See, when the Ba'ath Party made Zionism a crime punished by death, all the Jews of Iraq ran straight for Israel. At one time, there were more Jews in Baghdad than anywhere except perhaps London.

Israeli aircraft are putting in at Iraqi airports, though both sides deny it. Iraq has no beef with Israel.

And thats going to be policy when (#112981)
by Gramsky

the US leaves ?.

I think this helps Mitt Romney's presidential candidacy (#111768)
by catchy

These are timetables for withdrawal and now McCain has nothing to beat him over the head with.

Abu Muqawama (#111678)
by Bird Dog

Dr. iRack is one of the better sources on the SoFA and Memorandum of Understanding, and his take is mixed. June 2009 is a key date because the Sons of Iraq will be absorbed into the Iraqi government by that time, and U.S. combat forces will be out of Iraqi cities. How al Maliki handles the Sunnis is an open question, but he's been dragging his feet so far.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Update (#111577)
by HankP

via USA Today:

"We have agreed that some goals, some aspirational timetables for how that might unfold, are well worth having in such an agreement," Rice told reporters after meeting with Iraqi officials, including the prime minister. The two sides had come together on a draft agreement earlier this week and Rice made an unannounced visit to Baghdad to press officials there to endorse it.

OMG!! She said timetables!

[Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar] Zebari, asked about fears expressed by neighboring countries over such a pact, said in Arabic: "This decision (agreement) is a sovereign one and Iran and other neighboring countries have the right to ask for clarifications. ... There are clear articles (that) say that Iraq will not be used as a launching pad for any aggressive acts against neighboring countries and we already did clarify this."

Hmmm. I can't imagine McCain will be too happy about this.

"We're not sitting here talking about an agreement to try to get out of a bad situation," Rice said, asserting that the draft "builds on the success we have had in the last year. This agreement is based on success."

Ha. In the immortal words of one of the last sane Republicans, "the U.S. should declare victory and bring the troops home".

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I blame it all on the Internet

Not enough details (#111513)
by Bird Dog

Last week, the Times reported that a tentative deal was reached, and there's a lot of overlap between their reporting and the WSJ's. The Times also have this:

American soldiers will withdraw from cities across Iraq next summer and all US combat troops will leave the country within three years, provided the violence remains low, under the terms of a draft agreement with the Iraqi Government.

[...]

The "time horizon" for the exit of US troops would depend upon the ability of the Iraqi police and army to maintain security gains in Iraq after a surge of US forces in 2007 helped to push violence to its lowest levels in 4½ years.

Sounds to me like the withdrawals would be based on the conditions on the ground, but you and I won't know for sure until more information comes out on the deal.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

Helped (#111516)
by Spartacvs

Did you notice that slander on the mighty 'Surge'?

As hoped it will be the Iraqis not the WH or Petraeus who decide just how much 'help' they need going forward. That's the dynamic Obama hoped to achieve and he made it happen even before taking office. Bush-McCain not so much.

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

Slander? (#111641)
by Bird Dog

So was I slandering the surge strategy when I said it should get at least partial credit? That Obama achieved anything re Iraq is pure fantasyland spin. The people who achieved real results are our soldiers and the Iraqi people, not some politician who would rather remove all combat brigades on an arbitrary timetable, regardless of the circumstances.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

"an arbitrary timetable, regardless of the circumstances" (#111653)
by Spartacvs

Facts not in evidence.

Also the Maliki administration and now the Bush administration largely agree with Obama's proposal on the need for withdrawal tied to a timetable. By the way, it's aspirational now not arbitrary and that's official.

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

Obama's proposal (#111743)
by Timmy the Wonder Dog

was to be out by March of 08.

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"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob

Like for like (#111745)
by Spartacvs

At about the same time Obama broached his original proposal for withdrawal, McCain was going walkabout in Baghdad's Bab al-Sharqi market accompanied by “100 American soldiers, with three Blackhawk helicopters, and two Apache gunships overhead” in order to reassure folks back home that there “are neighborhoods in Baghdad where you and I could walk through those neighborhoods, today.”

Things have moved on since then.

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

More slide and elide (#111824)
by Bird Dog

McCain's security detail in Iraq is irrelevant. At the time, McCain supported the strategy that turned things around. Obama's "plan" was full-scale cut and run in as short as eleven months, which he later bumped to 16.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

I would accept (#111892)
by Spartacvs

helped turned things around, but not full-scale cut and run. McCain's security detail is very relevant to the impression he and Graham were trying to make on the folks back home, essentially so.

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

So you say "The beatings will continue until morale improves" (#111831)
by BlaiseP

Hmmm? Because that's exactly what the Surge turned into, BD. Our combat troops are a major irritant, hideously counterproductive. Just my opinion, of course, but let's face facts here: the Americans had no respect for the Iraqis, and have none now. What's more, all those Friendly Iraqis you see on the streets are just as friendly to the militias when they come along. They just want the militias to go the hell away.

The US military is only one more militia on the streets of Iraq. That's the way we're seen. The Strongest Tribe. But we don't live in that country and never will. So why are we staying? It is plain idiocy to keep anyone in Iraq who doesn't speak Arabic.

I certainly understand why you want to change the subject (#111749)
by Timmy the Wonder Dog

but the simple fact is that if we had followed Obama's original plan, he would have never been able to visit Iraq this summer.

In fact, if I might be so bold, Obama wouldn't even be the nominee if Americans were concerned about domestic terror attacks.

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"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob

ROFL (#111828)
by Spartacvs

I guess that would be the logical conclusion to any withdrawal if you accept the premise that "we are fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here". But perhaps you seriously overestimate how many poor confused souls actually still believe that nonsense.

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

You may be so bold, Timmy (#111791)
by Jay C

In fact, if I might be so bold, Obama wouldn't even be the nominee if Americans were concerned about domestic terror attacks.

But it won't make you right, though: or your comment any less a non sequitur!

What does "concern about domestic terror attacks" have to do with a planned withdrawal of US troops from Iraq? Or is this just another iteration of that stale old "terror threat" meme?

There's something for both campaigns (#111426)
by Spartacvs

to base their arguments on. So I predict Iraq and foreign affairs in general will be a wash, Obama's judgment having established his credibility as a potential CIC and proven despite the experience gap, that he is at least the equal of McCain on the world stage .

Time to move on to what should be more fertile ground for Obama in Stage 2 of the campaign and address the issues of greatest concern to the electorate. The economy, health care and an energy/environmental policy. McCain and the GOP lose big on those issues as long as Obama can keep the electorate focused on the issues and not dragged off into the weeds by joining McCain's negative campaigning binge centered around 'character' issues.

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GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.

Typical Republicans (#111399)
by Blue Neponset

They lie like rugs about the evils of timelines, call them something else (table for withdrawal) and then claim that we will have peace in our time. LINK

Angry John McCain said as much this week: LINK

"The lasting advantage of a peaceful and democratic ally in the heart of the Middle East could still be squandered by hasty withdrawal and arbitrary timelines. And this is one of many problems in the shifting positions of my opponent, Sen. Obama," McCain said.

I wonder when McCain is going to attack the arbitrary timelines table for withdrawal that Condi Rice is in currently negotiating.

This kind of sh!t is the number one reason we need a Democrat in the White House. The Democrats certainly aren't perfect but right, wrong or otherwise, you will at least get an honest debate from the Democrats. The Republicans only care about spin. It is sickening.

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But she's a queen, and such are queens
that your laughter is sucked in their brains. -D. Bowie

So you favor arbitrary timelines? (#111515)
by Bird Dog

Kagan wrote his piece at a time when Iraq experienced one its most violent months, and Democrats wanted arbitrary timelines for troop withdrawals, basically codifying that everything was lost and we needed to tuck tail home. Tell me how the GOP is lying about wanting withdrawals to be based on conditions on the ground.

McCain favors withdrawals based on conditions on the ground, and we don't know enough about the deal (at least in the WSJ) to know for sure, but the Times reported last week that the drawdowns would be scheduled, provided that violence remains low.

--

"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

"arbitrary timelines" is a political term... (#111532)
by Blue Neponset

...and it doesn't have any basis in reality. That is why it is a lie. The Democrats were also talking about a scheduled draw down of troops based on clearly defined goals to be achieved by the Iraqis. Instead of addressing that reasonable position, Bush & Co. claimed the Democrats only wanted arbitrary timelines and attacked them on that basis.

This is from 2005: LINK

Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts offered more specifics for withdrawal following a speech Thursday to the Council on Foreign Relations in New York.

Kerry said he thought at least 100,000 troops could be withdrawn by this time next year. "[You could] bring it down somewhere in the vicinity of 30,000 to 40,000. And then see where you are," he said.

But, Kerry said, he "would not do it on a fixed, automatic timetable. It has to be results coordinated."

He said the withdrawal should take place in stages according to "a series of benchmarks of accomplishment" by the Iraqis.

One benchmark Kerry cited was the December 15 parliamentary elections. If those go well, he said, the United States might withdraw 20,000 troops.

That was a fairly typical position for the Dems. Maybe you, Bush & the Republicans disagree with that position but it isn't an "arbitrary timeline".

We have never had an honest discussion about Iraq.

(on an unrelated note:

I didn't enjoy ratting you out to the mods. If, at any time, you want to call me a moron please feel free to e-mail me at blueneponset at yahoo dot com. Or better yet, call me a cattle rustler instead of a moron. I'll understand what you really mean, accuse you of being a bigger cattle rustler, and then we can continue to disagree about politics without anyone getting a stern talking too from the mods or a suspension.)

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But she's a queen, and such are queens
that your laughter is sucked in their brains. -D. Bowie

If timelines are concocted... (#111552)
by Bird Dog

...regardless of the situation on the ground, of course they're arbitrary. Obama's Iraq De-Escalation Act of 2007 is the epitome of arbitrary, and of declaring all is lost when Iraq was at its worst.

Kerry's problem was that he was more fixated on troop withdrawals than anything else in Iraq, which is also Obama's problem. Kerry offered no other "solutions", and neither has Obama.

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"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton

I agree (#111401)
by heet

if I hear McCain spout this "return with victory and honor" BS I'll have to slap my tv. The scary thing is he might even believe this nonsense.

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Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen

Well, let's face facts. Nobody wants a stupid exit from Iraq. (#111419)
by BlaiseP

Let's put honor and all that aside, for the moment. The US presence is quite different now than once it was: Sgt. Pain is a fine drill instructor, and his lessons are not soon forgotten.

We will leave, and somewhat sooner than this agreement shows. Iraq wants to buy our arms and goods and services, they will prove a useful client state. American interests would be best served if the USA paid the price to keep things stable while that infrastructure comes in. This new civilian army of occupation will bind us to Iraq in ways we can't begin to imagine now. It's the reason we'll never go to war with China or Russia, regardless of what these countries do. Cynically, we will recoup the billions spent on this war. More idealistically, if Iraq becomes a sound market-based economy, it already has a free press and free elections, we will have created something truly useful in the Muslim world, something more closely resembling Turkey.

Yes, I'd withdraw most of our combat brigades, and soon. They are only an irritant. But I wouldn't abandon Iraq to its fate: not when they could pay for our occupation.

We cannot withdraw without considering the implications of Iran in this mix. If I wanted to break the back of Iran's leadership, I'd gradually lift the embargo while removing our troops from Iraq. Iran is ripe for a revolution.

new civilian army of occupation (#111751)
by Timmy the Wonder Dog

I like that, it made me smile.

--

"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob

Oh yes (#111421)
by heet

I'm not for a full withdrawl. I agree with everything you say. My problem is the simplistic language used by McCain. "Victory and honor" my a$$.

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Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen

No need to worry about Victory and Honor for some of us (#111518)
by Carlos

What is life without a strong component of accomplishment?..i.e. victory over the obstacles between us and our goals.

What value do you have if you are not true to a set of high principles?...i.e honor

Without honor and the courage to achieve victory we become pliable cogs in a system easily gamed by the pros on Madison Ave. Yes, "victory and honor" may be simple to say, but it is exceedingly difficult to live by.

ok (#111538)
by heet

if it just takes a few words to get you excited then McCains message was aimed at you.

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Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen

Rather surprising (#111559)
by Carlos

Rather surprising to hear that a few words are not important from a blogger

Don't Believe a Word McCain Says About This (#111381)
by Harley

Unless of course he's already moved on to Iran. Or Korea. Or Georgia.

From Josh Marshall:

Will the McCain as trigger-happy hothead work? I suggest a different calculus. Is it true? I would suggest that it definitely is, both in personal temperament and policy prescriptions. And I believe that is the better metric, both practically speaking and morally.

Morally, the case is pretty straightforward. McCain really is a hothead. Everyone seems to agree that's true on an interpersonal level. But I don't really care about that. I don't care who he swears at. But over his time in the senate and now as would-be president, he's shown a tendency always to jump to the most confrontational and military-based responses to foreign events, often to almost ridiculous levels. And I think because of that temperament, he's fallen in with and become a useful tool of the DC neoconservatives who view acting crazy and getting people killed as a matter of principle.

I've watched the Bush presidency very closely. I've watched McCain closely for the last decade or so. And I either know or knew a decent amount about a lot of the people advising him on foreign policy. And in terms of the physical safety and future of my wife and two sons, let alone the country, I would much prefer four more years of the Bush presidency to a McCain presidency.

The pragmatic reasoning follows from the moral. People speak and argue much more coherently about things they believe in their bones, things that are true. And people with open minds are much more inclined to believe things that are ... well, true, rather than cooked up for maximum polling advantage. In any case, it's very difficult to know what will and won't 'work' in the abstract and in advance. Going with the truth is a more reliable guide.

Let's see how long it takes for folks to start talking opening about this particular truth. I'm guessing it won't be long. The fawning media will ignore it. And then they won't.

No matter how it happens, someone needs to shine a light on Senator Strangelove, and fast. Max Bergmann concurs:

McCain’s approach and tone on foreign policy has always been more emblematic of a tv pundit rather than a sober president. While McCain has attacked Obama as the "celebrity" candidate, the fact is that a bad place to be over the last 25 years has been between John McCain and a TV camera. The New York Times on Sunday noted that one of the first things McCain did after 9-11 was go on just about every TV program - where he incidentally called for attacking about four countries. In its biographical series profiling the candidates the Times also noted that McCain was attracted to the celebrity of the Senate with one close associate noting that McCain “saw the glamour of it. I think he really got smitten with the celebrity of power.” McCain clearly enjoys being on television and he has been a constant commentator on the Sunday news shows and the evening talk news programs.

But TV appearances encourage sound bites, over-the-top rhetoric, and good one-liners, not reasoned and nuanced diplomatic language. This is especially true from guests who are not in the current administration, since you are less likely to get invited back on Face the Nation if you down play a crisis or take a boring nuanced position. Thus on almost every crisis or incident over the last decade, McCain has sounded the alarm, ratcheted up the rhetoric and often called for military action - with almost no regards to the practical implications of such an approach.

The big concern with a McCain presidency – a concern which I am surprised has not been vocalized more fully – is that the U.S. will lurch from crisis to crisis, confrontation to confrontation, whether it be with Iran, North Korea, Russia, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc. The danger is that McCain’s pundit-like rhetoric will entrap the U.S. in descending spiral of foreign policy brinksmanship. Just think about the very likely scenario of McCain giving Iran/Russia a rhetorical ultimatum and Iran/Russia ignoring it. Now we are stuck - either we lose face by not following through on our threats or we follow through and go to war. We can’t afford such a reckless approach after the last eight years. For the next eight we need a president not a pundit.

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To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

Love the talking points, a nice snug fit (#111752)
by Timmy the Wonder Dog

nt

--

"Making sure your tires are properly inflated, simple thing, but we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling, if everybody was just inflating their tires and getting regular tune-ups. You could actually save just as much." Ob

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