
Based on a discussion in my last diary, I have a little thought experiment.
Assume we're in the near future, let's say a few decades from now. Robotics have improved to the point that virtually all extraction, manufacturing and distribution can be done automatically with little or no human input (other than making consumption choices). The entire economy is a closed loop ERP system, where actual demand is used to modify production levels. Only the most intellectual and creative of pursuits actually require humans. All people can be fed, clothed and housed at no cost and with no human labor.
Would this be Utopia?
Based on my experiences over the years, I'm not so sure. There are some people who are entirely self-directed, they have either one or several pursuits that they enjoy and would pursue no matter what kind of pay they receive (above basic existence levels, of course). There are, however, some people who are not. They have no strong passions or areas that engage them. To some people, "you can do anything" is the purest expression of freedom, to others it is a threat.
So would enough people have what we now call a vocation or avocation that they'd revel in their freedom, or would boredom take over the human race? While there are underlying economic questions about the likelihood and implementation details of this hypothetical, my real question here is about human nature.



You would always need a helot society
(#292131)from a study of history, with its own culture and subculture. No Utopia can be complete without one.
As for boredom, it exists to a very large extent already, if what we experience now is true. What are the rich, powerful and comfortable doing when they actually know that almost half of the human race, at the current time, is surviving on less than $2 a day, and 20% on less than $1 a day? AFAICS, the attitude seems to be (and this is universal in my experience across the rich and comfortable of all nations) is please **** off and die somewhere so its not inconvenient.
In the past, perhaps owing to a lack of knowledge or information or education people did not actually know this. Now we all do know it and there are no more excuses.
literally anything can become right or wrong if the dominant class of the moment so wills it
Why do you think that is
(#292140)and what exactly would a helot do? Draw the bath?
I blame it all on the Internet
I think we have hierarchy built into our DNA
(#292162)rather than egalitarianism. And humiliation of our inferiors, and worship of our superiors is very much a part of where we derive satisfaction and a sense of worth.
I guess your Utopia has no scarcities. But there should be no scarcity of food in the world today. Rather, there is a mechanism to create high food prices to benefit certain segments of society. And I have no doubt that even in your Utopia (of freely available cheap energy for example) there would be manipulation to create artificial scarcities, and booms and busts - going by human history.
Even assuming there's no scarcities, yes, drawing the bath for those regarded as mentally or physically superior would indeed be a symbol of respect. Didn't someone once wash the feet of his disciples?
I visited Hollywood for the first time this year. I was struck by the number of Americans who boarded the tourist buses going round the homes of famous people in Beverly Hills. Even spoke to some of them - retired engineers, managers and so forth, people who one would have thought well off enough and educated enough to have their own self-worth. I suppose it is the same as the groups of the awe-struck who visit the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala.
literally anything can become right or wrong if the dominant class of the moment so wills it
My guess is
(#292187)that your prediction of the future is closer to the mark than what we see in things like Star Trek.
However, there is the possibility that given enough time and freedom, we may learn how to raise children and form societies that avoids those pitfalls. It certainly isn't physically impossible.
I blame it all on the Internet
I'm optimistic. So much of the world has changed for the better
(#292246)in the past few decades. The greatest change is the tremendous achievement of the slowing of population growth.
My vision is of a egalitarian, zero hierarchical society, something that will need a change in our DNA.
I don't think the fulfilment of material concerns have much to do with achieving that. Poor people, and poor societies are much more peaceful, cooperative and collaborative. Looking at history, it is almost always the rich who have fomented and guided war and destruction. Where do you see - today - people earning less than $2 a day rising up in arms to grab more for themselves? There is little justification for the rich to fear the mob - the rich use the fear as a bogey to create an environment to justify their own violence.
The only unseen unknown is climate change. Once that problem is cracked, we will continue to progress to egalitarianism as a species, with/against our hierarchical propensities.
literally anything can become right or wrong if the dominant class of the moment so wills it
And BTW
(#292144)I've been detecting a noticeable un-Manish radicalism seeping through lately.
I blame it all on the Internet
He's Just Messing With Us
(#292147)I have an image of Manish sitting at his computer, idly twirling his moustache while randomly tweaking his comments with political sentiments that are ever so slightly out of whack with what we've seen from him, then laughing gleefully as we retreat in disarray. It's evil, I tell you. EVIL!!! ]:-)
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
One becomes more radical as one ages.
(#292163)Perhaps I'm reacting to the increasing conservatism of my generation.
Rethinking about what I wrote, its frustrating that things are much better in so many ways in the world - less violence, more tolerance, justice and equity, much better healthcare, eradication of disease, enough food production - that poverty and hunger today seems to be so much less justifiable than in the past.
literally anything can become right or wrong if the dominant class of the moment so wills it
Bingo, Filled an Inside Straight, Pocketed the 8 ball with a...
(#292199)...three railed bank shot.
You, Manish are young enough to envision a world different than this we now inhabit...young enough to still influence events.
Make it so. (Captain Jean-Luc Picard, Starship Enterprise, "Encounter At Farpoint" (28 September 1987).
Best Wishes, Traveller
Wouldn't happen as you describe it.
(#292132)It simply cannot happen that way. A large part of what man once spent the entire day toiling to obtain...Food and Shelter...require very little effort, relatively speaking. Yet, there's other work and there are different tasks that we simply couldn't have ever predicted that were created in the absence of needing to devote so much time and energy and resources to basic survival. As man accomplishes more and more with less and less effort, new tasks and wants are created. It's not static. We don't run out things to do. Actually, when you adjust the lens a bit, you see that man actually finds more and more to do as he is freed from needing to devote his entire day to basic survival.
How will it all play out? No idea. But it will play out in ways we could never imagine.
That's why it's called a hypothetical
(#292139)I never presented it as future history and probably never would.
But the question isn't about what percentage of the time one requires to meet minimum financial needs, it's about what happens when the very idea of financial need disappears. It's about whether people would be happy without direction, and without financial coercion.
I blame it all on the Internet
I don't know
(#292141)It's impossible to consider accurately.
Oh, go ahead. Be inaccurate. nt
(#292143).
I blame it all on the Internet
Well, I can accurately say that I find this hypothetical...
(#292238)unfathomable.
If we ever get to some level even remotely similar to what you are describing, the possibilities that we can infer about what people are doing for a living and for how much time per week are endless.
You go back not too far in time to the transition between agrarian and industrial society and the idea of a masseuse/health spa business was more or less ridiculous....for example. It's not that people didn't want a massage or need one or know anything of it. But who could possibly or seriously find the time or money to even jokingly consider paying for something like that outside of a few ultra elites? Fast forward in time and much of that toil and misery that dominated life has been lessened and leisure spending begins to slowly make its way into every day life and people begin finding things to pay for that either didn't exist earlier or were beyond a wildest, wet dream.
I think of the Back to the Future Part 3 exchange when Doc is talking about the future to guys in the saloon. He talks about cars. When the guy asks if anyone walks or runs anymore, Doc answers that people run for recreation...for fun. "Run for FUN?!?....What the hell kinda fun is that?!? hahaha"
I'd guess that people would create entire artificial economies,
(#292151)social orders, helot classes like Manish suggests, clans, cliques, claques, all based on absolute bullcr#p items of conspicuous consumption.
Granted, I think there'd be a mix of people much like today: there'd be people who surrender entirely to sloth & depression, others give in to hedonism, but I don't think that would become the general rule.
Instead, you'd have a few driven souls who'd be out exploring and inventing. You'd have artists, a few great ones and legions of pretenders more focused on entertainment. You'd have religious types, soul searchers. I think all of these would be a real minority, just like today.
I think the great majority of the population would be involved in the pretend economy. It'd be a little bit like modern America and a little bit like Paris before the revolution: patronage would be much more important, but fashion & accessorizing would be the thing. People would design earrings, iPad cases, duvet covers: creating all the paraphernalia of "lifestyle" would be the devotion of most everyone. Entertainment would be huge. Event planner would be a highly sought after profession. Celebrity cults and access would be huge. Much of life would be an endless cocktail party, organized by highly trained cocktail party professionals.
It'd be a little like Hunger Games without the starving kids, and a lot like Manhattan or LA. We'd become Hollywood. God help us.
M Aurelius was probably right.
I'd put it as a mix between
(#292156)I'd put it as a mix between this and stinerman's assumption that people would try to exploit others. Humans are awful, when you get right down to it, and there will always be a subset that must have more than everyone else at their expense. Artificial economies plus exploitation would satisfy this drive.
I suppose most of us here are pretty cynical so maybe the question should be posed to starry-eyed teenagers. Or maybe Gene Roddenberry.
We have Randians don't we?
(#292158)..pretty much the same thing. Ask them.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
I have no problem with cynical responses
(#292160)in fact I expected them.
I blame it all on the Internet
Not so sure about the conspicuous consumption part
(#292164)unique artifacts probably, garden variety materialism probably not. I'm not sure how it would affect the prevalence of hoarders.
I guess when you talk about artificial economies, what you're really taking about are various types of status economies. I could see the return of potlatch or gift economy. Alternatively there may be things such as the artificial economies we see in various computer games. There may even be separate communities that spring up with their own artificial economies for everyday life, and they'd compete for followers.
I would expect that religion would become a much bigger force in people's lives, if for no other reason that pondering the imponderable can really eat up the time. Sports would also be huge, even bigger than it is now if that's possible to imagine.
I blame it all on the Internet
Sort of what John said
(#292153)We'd use the law to require work, just as we already do now with copyrights and patents.
Think of it this way, if we had replicators like Star Trek, the logical extension of intellectual property law is that the commands need to replicate a car or computer or whatever would be copyrighted. Anyone who replicated a car would be subject to replication penalties because they didn't get Ford's permission before making a copy of someone else's car.
If we could live with only minimal amounts of work, those who make money off of other people working would use their dying breath to make sure that other people will still have to work. Classical economic theory implies that when the cost to make something is 0, the price will also need to be 0, which means labor would have to be 0. No one would know what to do, and that'd scare a heck of a lot of people.
We'd definitely fight several wars over it, at least in my opinion.
The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas
Your replicator example doesn't make sense to me
(#292165)you don't think there's be open source cars, or anything else that can be manufactured?
I'm also not sure how a law requiring work would work when it's clearly not required.
I think classical economic theory is a bad place to start, since almost all the assumptions that it's based on would no longer exist. Now the part about people being scared because they don't know what to do, that I could see.
I blame it all on the Internet
No, I don't
(#292201)I think they'd make such things illegal to keep the standard order. They'd call it a jobs program, oddly enough.
Classical economic theory is all people have to explain the economy. When the assumptions fail, they'll try to make laws so that the assumptions still hold. It's a matter of clinging to what people know instead of stepping into the unknown.
The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas
Land
(#292175)Not every good of value is manufactured. Land is finite and cannot be made. Good land, in attractive locations, is even more scarce. The planet has the same number of square miles as 10,000 years ago.
Also, the robots would extract resources... from where?
So the utopia you describe is not possible till we can manufacture planets, terraform existing ones, or invent warp drive to go to other solar systems. Definitely not a question of decades. Sorry!
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
Oh come now
(#292185)the deepest mine in the world is 2.5 miles deep. That's barely scratching the surface. There are plenty of resources available to dig and/or grow, especially with close to free labor.
Land may be finite, more importantly fresh water is as well. That just means that the ones with jobs and/or wealth would tend to get the best locations - just like it is now.
I blame it all on the Internet
I Suspect A Certain Subset Of Humanity. . .
(#292179). . .would hardly notice the difference.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Ha! You call that humanity? -nt-
(#292189).
M Aurelius was probably right.
BTW Scott
(#292190)it looks like you shouldn't plan on a political career.
I blame it all on the Internet
No.
(#292186).
In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome.
Why? Because you'd be out of a job?
(#292188)I figured you'd be the one to start his own distillery just for the fun of it.
I blame it all on the Internet
Nah, there will always be do-gooders
(#292191)You're a progressive, right? Don't get attached to the label, it's how you're described right now, 30-40 years ago I'd be a progressive. Imagine the next generation of progressives, try the ones after that, and then go one more, still keeps us in single-digit decades. You would be a conservative in that future. You'd be an unenlightened POS because you like to eat meat. Or maybe it's because you think 'universal pet care' is just taking things too far. I'm not really claiming that these issues will be the fights of the future, but they work as illustrations.
Fix all the problems you want, good enough will never be good enough for good or enough that folks won't screw with it to try and make it what they think of as better. And with that, Utopia will be the same pipe dream then as it is now.
In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome.
So what's your idea of utopia
(#292192)or heaven if you want to get metaphysical.
I blame it all on the Internet
My idea of Utopia?
(#292219)All the standard beauty pageant stuff plus:
-Beer and Pizza are health foods
-Women finally get men. This really is a diary unto itself.
-Athlete's foot, jock itch and bad breath are all cured
In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome.
OK, let's try this
(#292225)forget all the stuff in the hypothetical. Let's say that tomorrow you get a letter from the law firm Dewey Cheatam and Howe telling you that a long lost relative, Great-Uncle Cuddly (whom you've never heard of) died and left a trust that will pay you and your wife an inflation adjusted $XK a month for the rest of your life. You fill in the X for what would cover all your expenses.
So now you don't have to work. What would you do with your time? Would you stay at your current job because you like it? Is there something that you always wanted to do that you never had the time for? Or would you keep working because no matter what $X is you could always get more?
That's really the essence of what I'm trying to get at here.
I blame it all on the Internet
Oh! ok, so assuming I am free of material concerns
(#292240)I'd distill anything that couldn't get away fast enough. More to follow when I get to a computer. I'm creating this comment with just my mind.
In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome.
I think you're describing our *real* future, Darth,
(#292203)not Hank's imaginary one free from deprivation & want.
I think you're almost certainly right that we'll eventually go all Hindu with respect for living things, and so the future America will be mostly vegetarian, maybe even vegan. To hell with the organic movement, I'm talking about an inorganic movement. That's right, we'll be living on a diet of feldspar and schist. It'll be a short-lived movement.
Much as I like the idea of progressive equality for all living things, I'm not vegetarian & have no plans of becoming one. I'd be dragged off to the indoctrination center with a rack of ribs in one hand and a black bass in the other. Weeks of painstaking effort in group therapy would be set back when I have to be restrained from taking a bite out of the camp guru's pet llama.
I do have a solution though: vat-grown meat. Now hear me out. The technology is already there; the culinary sophistication is not. Among other things, they need to work on the name. I don't think "shmeat" is going to catch on anytime soon. Maybe the price tag will lure some high end consumers at the outset: at roughly $2 million a pound, Frankenmeat might be an attractive option for people who like to mouth off about how much they spent on dinner...the genuine Kobe beef set, perhaps Kobe Bryant.
The wiki article notes that there's much progress to be made. The first meats successfully grown in a lab included goldfish and lamb. I've never tried goldfish, but millions of housecats can't be wrong. In theory just about any meat for which starter cells can be obtained can be grown in a tissue culture: including human. Don't say you've never been curious.
There are technological challenges. Growing meat isn't all that different from growing plants hydroponically, but making it taste like meat, or even "good" is going to take some work. It means basically recreating muscle in the laboratory, something that's easier said than done.
As much as I like a good sponge-like matrix, it'll have to pass that most important of tests if it hopes to make it in American cuisine: Will it bbq? In addition, muscle tissue needs to be stretched or "exercised," so there's one answer to the question about future jobs in Hank's Utopia. Look for the professions of personal trainer and aerobics instructor to really take off. Somebody's got to give the beaker beef a workout!
M Aurelius was probably right.
Jordan, you see a technological leap
(#292220)forward that would mean we wouldn't have to kill animals. I see the Mexican cartels dropping drugs and raising cattle. Black market black angus anyone? The TSA pulling people aside for smuggling bratwurst in bodily orifices. "Unless that ticket is for Bangkok you're headed to jail for a long time Mr Jones." And when normal meat is just as illegal as currently illegal meat then we'll see an uptick in illegal harvesting of endangered species. Ever have penguin? Look for it at your local pusher near thanksgiving.
In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome.
When meat is a crime then only criminals will have meat. -nt-
(#292222).
M Aurelius was probably right.
The important thing is
(#292204)that although you have abolished labour you have not abolished scarcity.
The Factories and Extractories can only extract and fashion so fast and people must discard befor materials can reenter the system.
So the problem of how to apportion the goods remains and how it is handled is path dependant - how we get to this state of affairs will haev a significant effect on how it operates and so how close to a nirvana it is for most of the people.
I could imagine a few scenarios"
1. A small cadre of owners of the technology controlling access to the technology in return for services from the others. Since services have mostly become highly devalued only a small number of pwople can live this way. They can then resell their access or the goods it brings them for services from the other unconnected outsiders. A heirarchy develops. Probably also a paralell economy where things get done the old fashioned way.
2. Goods are rationed. All have access to the ordering systems and a number of points with which to purchase what they want. Distribution of points could be completely egalitarian, or start of as based on pre revolution wealth. Either way heirarchy would still exist as people amass goods through fair means and foul. You could show status by saving your points to buy unusual and prized items - a cockatoo feather headdress for example. CFHs would be all the rage for a while and anyone who had one would be "it". Sporting events, entertainment and so on would continue and there would probably be distribution of prizes and awards. Society could control access to things it disapproves off by turning those options off on the order consoles. A parallel old style economy might arise to supply things like LSD, booze, midget hookers, etc
I feel a little depressed now.
Everyone keeps trying to undercut Hank's hypothetical
(#292206)rather than just running through the thought experiment. The answer to your quibbles is:
That is, zero cost, or rather extraction & production energy costs are so low as to be practically nonexistent. Maybe they're nanobots that run on zero point energy, I dunno. It's hellaciously cool technology, and extremely far-fetched, but the point of the exercise is to imagine a future where scarcity of at least basic needs of life has been abolished. Somehow, who cares how.
M Aurelius was probably right.
Can be.
(#292210)Can be. Doesn't mean will be. Especially not in this world and even more extra especially not if there's bono to be made.
Hence my path dependant line of thought. Offering free food to folks (that's free to me, inventer of the magic flying nanobots) sounds like a service we could charge for. When i invent my nanobot I've an interest in controlling it's operation an distribution in order to allow me to profit. Maybe I manage and we get scenario 1. Maybe governments take over my invention, or I license it with creative commons and scenario 2 applies.
Jordan is correct
(#292226)and you must have missed the end of the diary. I'm not interested in the economic details of how it would work, I want to know how you think people would react to it, including yourself. If you didn't have to work, would that change what you do for a living? If people no longer had to be garbagemen or phone support representatives, would they still do it because that's what they know, or would they just party all the time? Or would they try to work at their "dream" job or hobby?
I blame it all on the Internet
Oh, ok. I can answer that much less interesting hypothetical if
(#292272)you like.
Well first of all, no, I wouldn't work at my current job. Having free time to read all the way to the end of all of hank's diaries, as well as spend time with my children while they are at such a young age would be to good to turn down. Time with my mother and father while they are still alive too.
For entertainment, I would do a lot of tinkering. I love making things. Exploring too. Just get on the bicycle and go.
I'd probably need a bit of extra wagly-woo (as I've decided to call money in this new Eutopia) for which I would contract myself out fixing stuff for people who had wagly-woo.
My first rule ould be NO TV. It just eats too much time nad no-one in the house would be allowed any without first applying to the central executive for a requested time slot to watch a program they would like to see. DVDs are allowed.
What to do if I didn't have to work?
(#292273)I'd probably be one of the laziest people on record for the first couple of months.
After that...I'd probably try to learn how to program more than the odd patch here and there. Perhaps I'd try to get into quantum mechanics research, anything to expand the bounds of what we know as a species.
The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas
Hank, I found a video version of your diary.
(#292207)M Aurelius was probably right.
That's one alternative
(#292227)if you believe that people are essentially consumers at heart and nothing else. Maybe I have a better (ridiculously optimistic?) opinion of mankind, but I think that's probably the least likely alternative.
I blame it all on the Internet
When did you last spend time in the Midwest or South, Hank? -nt-
(#292232).
M Aurelius was probably right.
Midwest about 15 years ago
(#292234)the South just last year. But I think I'm talking about issues that go deeper than regional differences.
I blame it all on the Internet
I think you misspelled fatter, Hank.
(#292253)Yes, morbid obesity is one of the fastest-growing health problems in the flyover country. The natives will tell you themselves, if you ask them. They aren't happy about it. Why there was a guy on farkin death row who asked for a stay because he's to fat to be lethally injected. I am not shyting you.
http://www.examiner.com/article/man-too-fat-to-die-obese-prisoner-execut...
M Aurelius was probably right.
That's not the only place it's a problem
(#292258)and maybe reducing the stress of worrying about money would help.
I blame it all on the Internet
Mass migration might cause problems
(#292209)Not everyone can live at the beach in SOCAL and someone has to live in Mississipi.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
It could
(#292228)but remember that I didn't say there was no money or that everyone was rich, just that they didn't have to work for the essentials.
I blame it all on the Internet
A roof over my head
(#292233)is the biggest essential after food.
If I don't have to work to provide a roof over my head and can live anywhere at no cost, then I'm off to find the best geographic location compatible with demand for my services.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
Once again
(#292235)I didn't say there's no money or that everyone is rich. A roof over your head doesn't mean you get to point at any dwelling and claim it. Not everyone will be able to afford waterfront property.
The thing I'm really asking is what would you do with your time? Would you keep doing what you're doing now, or are there other things that you'd like to do but can't because they don't pay enough to support you? Do you think most people would just party all the time, or would they find other things to do?
I blame it all on the Internet
I like what I do
(#292236)and would want to continue doing it even if my basic needs were taken care of and I didn't have to work to obtain them, but I don't like the company I work for.
So me efforts would be focused on finding a better employer and a better locale. As it happens I'm exploring an opportunity to do just that right now and may end up leaving my deep red state for a swing state by election time.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
What will people do when they don't have to do anything?
(#292241)Is that an accurate rephrasing of your question?
If everyone is provided with the necessities of life, but not the luxuries, most people will still want to work (work being defined as something that you do for money that you would not do otherwise) for the luxuries. Some will accept a life without luxuries and forego work, some will work less than they do now, and some will work just as much. My suspicion is that most people will work just as much; for all intents and purposes, human beings have unlimited wants.
If robots and computers completely replace human beings so that no one can be productive in either a physical or intellectual sense, then human beings would essentially be living an endless childhood, with all the wonders and terrors that childhood composes.
"In large states public education will always be mediocre, for the same reason that in large kitchens the cooking is usually bad."~Nietzsche
I'll be sandman. But being over 30
(#292242)I expect the job will be rough.
In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome.
Yup, that's pretty much it
(#292244)so you think people will continue to desire "work" as opposed to recreation or avocation. Do you think they'd continue to work at jobs they hate, or that they'd be more picky?
Also, I don't think robots will replace people in creative endeavors for a long, long time.
I blame it all on the Internet
Desire work? Not by the definition that I am using.
(#292247)Work, in the sense that I am using the word, is something that wouldn't be done if there was no financial incentive. Using that definition, there are certainly people that would never work again if the necessities of life were provided for them. There are also people that would continue to work at jobs that they hate in order to buy the luxuries that they want.
In this scenario, people could certainly afford to be more picky. Some people would only work at a job that they like, others would balance how much that hate a job with how well it pays. Undesirable jobs would certainly have to pay more, as the law of supply and demand dictates.
"In large states public education will always be mediocre, for the same reason that in large kitchens the cooking is usually bad."~Nietzsche
I wonder if that would invert the pyramid
(#292248)maybe difficult, laborious jobs would pay better than intellectually stimulating ones.
I blame it all on the Internet
They already do in some cases.
(#292251)NT
"In large states public education will always be mediocre, for the same reason that in large kitchens the cooking is usually bad."~Nietzsche
Happiness studies
(#292404)Studies have shown that people are only happy when they measure their contentment and success against others. Keeping up with the Joneses is a very real effect and the need to have a brighter shiner object than your neighbor will keep people working past the point of meeting basic needs. Having said that people aren't significantly happier once they make enough to be comfortable. However, if you eliminate the need to work for basic subsistence then I think there would be a very large creative shiny object industry with a significant number of people working to create unique items in a boutique fashion. This is already true at the high end today and would slide down the economic scale if the economic structure allowed it.
--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.
The bright shiny objects
(#292407)don't even have to be physical. Every seen two affluent weekend Buddhists competing over who has more inner peace?
I predict thriving industries in spiritual services, lifestyle consulting, and greener-than-thou products.
Fair question,
(#292510)but I doubt that the human condition will ever reach such a point, and I try to avoid hypotheticals as much as possible. What you're talking about is Star Trek, where basic necessities are covered and people live their lives for self-fulfillment and to maximize their potential.
Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.
Not quite
(#292512)there would still be money, and things would still cost money. I'm wondering if this would change how you live your life, and whether you think it would change society in a good or a bad way.
I blame it all on the Internet
It's still Star Trek as...
(#292515)...basic necessities are covered, and such a society should have room for those seeking either self-fulfillment or profits or both. I think the question will be more valid if or when someone invents a warp drive.
Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.
It's a good question, but....
(#293137)....I suspect that it is made (or would be made) moot by a) the primate need for hierarchy, which means that we'll be competing over something or other and b) the transference of labor towards whatever is least efficient in terms of automation or most constrained in terms of resources. A) is impossible to get around, B) will generally be difficult to get around short of a truly perfect and utterly costless production technology.
And considering B), does that even make sense? You'd really be talking about production with no inputs whatsoever. Short of that, there has to be some arbitrary level of consumption at which a resource constraint bites. If there are enough suits of clothes to cover everybody's back given the expectation of one new outfit per month, then what happens when somebody wants two new outfits per month? Or disposable daily clothes built to taste every morning by the nanofabricators. Or...
The Eschaton/Utopia would be no constraints on human will whatsoever, but this truly implies no resource or energy constraints whatsoever, else your desires must run into mine in one resource constraint at said arbitrarily high level of consumption, even if we assume no ethical constraints.
Edit: Looking further down in the threads, it sounds like you're not talking about a true lack of constraints, really just a continuance of existing patterns for a little bit. I'd suggest that what you'll see then is a continuance of what you see in current patterns of behavior. That is, it is difficult even today not to have enough calories to survive or to have a handful of outfits of clothes. (Yes, I'm saying that between income, charity, government supports, etc, it is difficult to literally starve or freeze, short of mental illness.) So what do people do? They compete over better/more exotic food, or over the ability to eat as much as they like without negative effects (either via drugs, surgery or interesting ways to exercise.) Or accepting that they have whatever they want in terms of food, they compete over something further up the ladder.
"Unfortunately the universe doesn't agree with me. We'll see which one of us is still standing when this is over." -- Eliezer Yudkowsky