Impact of Libertarians

Via Greg Mankiw we get a column in the National Journal by Clive Crook, a Brit, regarding the role of Libertarians in the American electorate and the Republican Party. [Caveat: I have voted for Libertarian candidates many times including twice for President]. Some key sections follow:

The vaunted ability of the Republican Party to get out the vote where it really matters is about to be tested. If the party can survive the midterm elections without heavy losses (especially if it retains control of the House) despite the current abysmal poll ratings for the Bush administration and the congressional leadership, then its strategy of attending to its loyalist base will be vindicated. If the party gets the drubbing that Iraq, Hurricane Katrina, assorted congressional scandals, and those awful poll numbers all point to, then the message for 2008 will be different: Republicans must look beyond that loyalist base and care more, as they used to, about support from uncommitted voters.

Er, I think that is going to be obviously true even if Republicans lose a significant number of seats but retain control of both houses. Let''s face it, what is driving the Republican Party in this election is the same lame approach that the Dems have been using, "We're not as bad as the other guys." Weak, just weak.

[Is there a common view among the neglected electorate?]One answer, so I read, is that an important part of the uncommitted vote has "liberal" values in the traditional English sense of that term. In the United States such people have to be called "libertarians" or "classical liberals" -- words uncommon in current political discourse, which is revealing in itself. These are citizens who favor limited government in economic affairs (unlike the Democratic base) but also in social and cultural matters (unlike the Republican base). They are instinctively pro-market, wary of big government, and no more than moderately egalitarian, which inclines them to vote Republican -- or it used to, anyway, when Republicans cared about curbing public spending. But at the same time, they are offended by what happens when politics meets evangelical religion. They take a generally permissive view of private morality, are not much devoted to tradition, and are broadly welcoming of technological and cultural innovation, rather than anxious about it. These views incline them to vote Democratic.

I think that is largely correct and tells us why the prioritized issue of the day, whatever that voter thinks it is, probably decides this voter one way or the other. But Cook does leave out entirely in this paragraph foreign policy. Even the Libertarian/Classic Liberal grouping breaks down once that is introduced. Pure Libertarianism only fights in immediate self defense while other members of that group would include "interests" beyond mere immediate self-defense as legitimate causes for action. Pure Libertarians usually don't support foreign aid etc, others in the group would and do.

The question is, how much of the moving middle (if it is a "middle") does this libertarian tendency really occupy? Are there as many libertarians as muddle-headed vacillators? Do they outnumber switchers who vote for personalities, not policies? A new study by David Boaz and David Kirby for the Cato Institute (a think tank dedicated to the classical liberal cause) says that the libertarian vote is big enough to be worth capturing. Indeed, the authors say, it is capable of swinging elections.

My own answers to the three questions put me in the libertarian camp, by the way, so I would love Boaz and Kirby to be correct. But you have to wonder. The polling analysis that so pleases them leaves me feeling a bit lonely. Can it be right that barely 10 percent of respondents give what I would have regarded as characteristically American answers to the three questions? (I say that as a Brit. I also find myself wondering whether there are more libertarians in Britain -- or in France, for heaven's sake -- than America's paltry one in 10.)

If the 10% all voted, this is a huge block. But I have no idea whether Libertarians vote out of proportion to the general electorate.

And how much effort are these voters worth? Although it is true that the libertarian vote is up for grabs, in other ways it is a tactically unappealing target, because it will always be up for grabs...you will never turn a libertarian into a loyalist of any party.

That is not all. Because they are skeptical not just about government but also about politics and the people who devote their lives to it, libertarians may be disinclined to get out and vote...[the] temperament is close to the one that wearily says, "I cannot be bothered and want nothing to do with this process." Disenchanted and few in number: Why spend limited resources on reaching them? Libertarians are disenfranchised for a reason.

Yup, we get what we deserve on this one. Activism runs counter to our temperament. As such, persuading such thinkers regularly is a difficult, perhaps impossible, task. As I said, the question becomes what is the individual's priorities at a given moment becomes the determinant of the vote.

The American idea -- expressed in the Declaration of Independence and in the Constitution -- is quintessentially a classical liberal idea. It is all there: Limited government; checks and balances; civil liberty and economic liberty. Libertarians won those arguments, but they have been on the losing side for about the last 70 years.

Yup, and we're probably going to stay there. Right now the only thing each party can do is tell us they aren't as bad as the other guys. For my money the Republicans have the better case, but I suspect lots of pure libertarians would disagree.

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What?

(#4938)
TXG1112's picture

For my money the Republicans have the better case

I honestly do not understand how you can even type this, never mind think it.

I suspect lots of pure libertarians would disagree This one sure does.

There is a huge disconnect between what people say the Republican party is for, versus what they actually enact. There has been an amusing blog fight between John Cole and Redstate. John has jumped on the Democrats bandwagon with both feet.

--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.

Easy, because my highest priority right now is the war. nt

(#4950)

xxx

I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!

Ding-ding-ding-ding!

(#4995)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

Which One? nt

(#5011)

“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco

The war on intarweb poker

(#5012)

is my bet

The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.

Leave Harry Reid out of this

(#5020)

Or do you really think that isn't a backroom deal with Senator Vegas?

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

Wait a minute!

(#5031)

Do you mean that a senator actually worked to pass legislation that benefits a big industry in his home state? I've never heard of such a thing.

Guard, protect and cherish your land, for there is no afterlife for a place that started out as Heaven.

I know!

(#5035)

Can you imagine!

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

There's only one going on

(#5016)

you ma have been able to argue that Iraq was separate three years ago. Arguing it now is foolish.

I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!

Leave My Ma Out of This!

(#5039)

And I understand arguing is not worth either of our time. This does not, however, make you right, nor the Iraq War any less disasterous for the larger WOT.

In other words, making Iraq a litmus test regarding any pol's plans re the War On Terror is simply continuing to run the same game the Bush admin. has been at for three years. Funny thing? A clear majority of the American people aren't buying that anymore. And that same majority, believe it or not, are every bit as serious about fighting the WOT as you are. Honest.

“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco

Not so worried about the people

(#5049)

worried about the Democrat leadership.

I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!

Here is my problem --

(#5079)

I think the Bush Administration and the PNAC set are completely, disastrously wrong on these issues. The kind of wrong that gets Americans killed and will cause us to be hated, poorer, and less free for decades. I feel very strongly that you are taking an issue on which (for me) this is completely obvious, elevating it to the highest level, and using it to ignore the most painfully obvious corruption, thuggishness, and idiocy at the highest levels.

"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes

With all due respect, I suggest that you obviously did not

(#5083)

live in the America of either Lyndon Baines Johnson or Richard Milhouse Nixon.

During both administrations, the US was more disliked than it is today by a significant margin; corruption, thuggishness and idiocy at the highest levels significantly exceeded today's levels and we are poorer and less free today today due to their failed policies.

Cheer up, this too will pass -- and just think, the next one may be worse than this one... :)

What war?

(#5032)
TXG1112's picture

It's not even a police action. What we have here, is a poorly run occupation.

--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.

We're not occupying, we're there but that is not now and has

(#5033)

never been an occupation in any classic or legal sense. I suspect it is far closer to a Police Action -- Harry Truman's inappropriate name for the Korean War -- than was Korea.

May not be a war to you; it is to the kids who're there. You do support them, of course?

How isn't it?

(#5036)
TXG1112's picture

We invaded, toppeled the existing power structure, and now we're propping up the existing government body? How is that not an occuption?

FWIW, the police action thing was mainly a rhtorical flourish. However for political reasons we call this a war, and we called that one a police action, when both terms were meant to obfusicate rather than identify.

--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.

West Germany in the 40s, 50s, 60s.....

(#5052)

TTT

““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H

you must be right

(#5086)
TXG1112's picture

That period was peaceful, and successful rebuilding and democratization programs were taking place. This lunacy in Iraq must have some other name, as it has none of those things.

Please, don't waste our time with nonsense.

--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.

Not nonsense at all. Germany in the late 40s was an

(#5094)

absolute mess; took until about 1950 to get it settled down. they were occupied, de facto and de jure until 5 May 1955 -- about ten years.

Iraq is a success story, it went from occupation in Spring 2003 to an independent country not occupied de facto or de jure in less than three years.

Timmy's point was we stayed in Germany for more than then 60 years; more than 50 after the termination of the occupation. I don't think we'll be in Iraq quite that long. Almost but not quite.

I agree with you that it doesn't look like an occupation

(#5098)

It looks like a successfull military decapitation that defaulted into a failed occupation because of the inept management of the political leadership that took us there.

There is no appetite to stay in Iraq as long as you suggest, certainly not at the current levels of violence and lawlessness which indeed appear to be worsening not getting any less. Neither would there have been an appetite to stay in Germany or Japan given similar conditions to those that prevail in Iraq today.

You have lived through a decent chunk of the nations post WW2 history, but like Timmy you appear to have learned little from the experience.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Yes and no. You're correct on the appetite bit but there's

(#5102)

more to it than what we'd like. We'll see.

Not at all, Sparty, I learned a great deal. I learned that public opinion is very fickle and that it is not -- and should not be -- the final determinant in much of anything. I learned that political maneuvering usually backfires and that political predictions often do.

I learned the difference between getting shot at and sitting on ones can outside a combat zone kibitzing and blathering and basking in ignorance. Most importantly, I learned that minor sling and arrows from those who have little knowledge is generally naught but a petty attempt to discredit anyone with whom they disagree. I just consider the ignorance of the source, smile :)

And go get a refill...

But we were "liberating" Iraq

(#5103)

The correct comparison isn't 1945 Germany but 1945 France or just maybe Italy.

I'm not that impressed with measuring "success" by the legal status of the occupation. (I'm also wondering why we viewed the Eastern European countries as occupied by the Soviet Union in some sense, but Iraq is not still occupied by the United States.) The level of violence in Iraq is much higher than US-Occupied Europe 1945 and I'm at a loss to think of any nation-building exercise that looked like this—not even more electricity generated three years on—with a happy ending.

The purpose of torture is torture. —Orwell

Actually, there is no correct comparison, I didn't introduce

(#5104)

Germany, Timmy did to make a point on the length of stay, I think. Regardless, I wasn't measuring sucess, simply pointing out a fact on time. We're doing something in Iraq that hasn't been done before; certainly not recently.

The level of violence in Iraq is not as high as, say Viet Nam but the conditions are quite different and the type of violence and the targets of that violence are also not the same. There is no analogy with any other US effort, the closest comparison is the Phillipnes but there are so many differences that comparison isn't really a good one. The likelihood of a "happy ending" is very remote -- always was, we are, after all, talking about the ME -- whether there will be a generally acceptable result (which I expect) remains to be seen.

It isn't because that body was duly elected; it's their

(#5093)

country and we remain at their pleasure. If it were at our pleasure, it would be an occupation; it isn't so it isn't.

Simple, no?

I'm used to silly rhetorical flourishes, not a problem. Harry Truman actually used the term Police Action to defuse calls about an "undeclared war" (sound familiar?) in the days before there was a War Powers Act. He deployed troops on his own hook and Congress was totally torqued.

Actually, we call several things wars. You say we call "this" a war but don't refer to anything specific. If you mean the "War on Terror," that is indeed a political construct and advisedly so. It is also not one bit obfuscatory and is quite practical and advisable. If the other guy thinks he's at war with you -- and he inarguably does -- then you're at a disadvantage if you do not realize that and call it appropriately.

If you're speaking of the effort in Afghanistan, that is a war of sorts. Since NATO is in now charge there, they can call it anything they wish.

If you're speaking of Iraq, it is technically a Counterinsurgency campaign and a Nation Building operation and not a war.

Howsomeever, as I said, to the Kids getting shot at, it's war. I think their vote should count a little extra...

You do support them, do you not?

We remain in Iraq at the pleasure

(#5100)

of the President of the United States who is seeking to demonstrate his resolve to .... well I'm unsure of what or to whom but it sure isn't the ordinary people of Iraq that's for sure.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

That, too - to an extent. Couple of points. Said Prez has

(#5101)

stated that when the Iraqi government asks us to leave, we will. I have no reason to doubt that -- not least because that will probably not occur until after 2008 and there'll be a different Prez.

You imply that the ordinary people of Iraq do not want us there. Totally true. Whether that translates into wanting us out now for the majority of those people is a different thing entirely.

The Iraqi government OTOH will want us around for a bit for several reasons; not least to deter the neighbors from getting silly. That and the $$$ that will continue to flow as long as we're there...

I do mean our Iraq adventure

(#5118)
TXG1112's picture

From the perspective of the solider on the ground, I'm sure that any place where people are shooting at you, looks like a war. None the less, I don't believe that it really qualifies as one, and your term "counterinsurgency/nation building" is a much better term. The only reason it is called a "war" is so our illustrious leader can call himself a war president.

I have difficulty taking seriously any statements regarding choice by either the Iraqi Government or people. Their decision making is entirely governed by events outside of their control. Without US involvement, the existing Government would collapse, so all those involved have a good incentive to keep US troops in-country, regardless if it is a good idea or not.

--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.

The fact that Iraq, per se, is not a war )other than as noted to

(#5139)

the Joes on the ground) is true. That it is a component of a larger war is at least arguable. While Bush may want to call himself a "War President" he also for all practical purpose is just that. You may not think it's a war; they do.

I'm not sure I'd discount the Iraqi government to the extent that you do. Consider that if we were not there -- acting as a brake on their capability -- there might be a far more harsh and effective counterinsurgency resulting in far fewer live Sunnis in Iraq. A lot of folks miss the fact that the US presence in Korea was more to keep the South from going north than the opposite.

Thus, I suspect it would not be the Iraqi government that would collapse. However, you are correct in saying that all involved do have an incentive to keep us in country. I think that's a far better idea than leaving. YMMV.

A little specious...

(#5128)

Ask the average Iraqi if we are occupying the country. Large and powerful political blocks within Iraq seem to feel we are, even as we prop up a national government that has had to barricade itself behind U.S. security in Baghdad, and risk kidnapping/assassination each day. We call that one the 'legitimate' government, when quite obviously it is still a matter of contention.

So I'd say if we can be at 'war' because a tiny group of operatives like Al-Qaeda declares war on us, then we can be in an 'occupation' because a good half of the country in question feels that we are there as an invader.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I always try to be spacious and accomodate complexing views.

(#5134)

Good plan; do ask the average Iraqi. I suspect the answer will vary dependent upon the time of day and what's happening in his neighborhood. Still, your basic point is correct; the majority do not like us, want us out of their country on a base level and think we are occupiers.

That has little to do with whether they want us gone NOW if push came to shove; they're pretty pragmatic. Nor does it have much to do with whether we are, in fact, occupying the nation. We've never had enough troops on the ground to do that (and didn't need them there for that purpose).

Heh. I suspect there are those in this country who consider whether or not the government here is 'legitimate' to be a matter of contention...

The fact remains that this government and that were elected and are de jure and de facto in charge -- to one degree or another.

You, as usual, miss the point -- AQ in and of itself is not the issue. They're a drop in the bucket, they just got lucky and pulled a big one off before someone else did. Worldwide Islamist hatred of the west is the war. That's a lot more potent and a lot more dangerous than just AQ. Conservatively, world wide of 1.5B Muslims, you can expect about one percent or about 15M -- roughly 3M adult males -- to subscribe to that philosophy including a number in Europe and a few here. That may not worry you. It should.

You may think we can have a dialogue with them. We can't.

We can play semantics all day long to little avail on the occupation issue. I understand your point and do not disagree. I'm just not sure that is really the issue and I strongly suspect that the beliefs and feelings of Iraqis are not cast in stone as it were.

No, it's not a war

(#5141)

because a minority group of salafist radicals hates the U.S. and would kill us if they could. It is, certainly, a problem, and one that didn't get taken seriously until after 911, but a war it ain't. That's just a political metaphor.

Also, we're trying to stop terrorism, not Salafism. So you can trim that 3 million figure down to the few tens of thousands of radicalized cadres that are out there. The rest are on board with fighting the west -- but are not necessarily 100% convinced that civilian attacks are legitimate within Islam. Certainly the billions of other Muslims aren't convinced, although they'll certainly look the other way if we let them. That's where dialog can (must) play a role.

The real situation is this: we're unwilling participants in a doctrinal war within Islam. We have to make sure the moderates win. But the radicals (ours and theirs) know instinctively that it's easier to cause a larger war than to stop one. We have to do everything possible to stop future terror attacks in order to prevent a general escalation: but that is actually a secondary concern to the real conflict.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Error.

(#5143)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

Also, we're trying to stop terrorism, not Salafism.

Not precisely. To the extent that terrorism is driven by ideology, ideology is the problem. A full-stop to terrorism would be nice, but seems unlikely if the ideology and homes of same are intact.

Custom dictates that you are entitled to your opinion and

(#5151)

reality says that many agree with you. I personally don't care what it is or is not called as long as folks realize that it is serious.

It is indeed political mataphor however it also is beneficial to call it that from the standpoint that it focuses attention on the opponent's goals and usage. It correctly and importantly serves to elevate it to a plane greater than being simply a "law enforcement issue." It is that; it is also much more.

See Bernard below. Terrorism has been around for ages and it's not going to be stopped. Ever. This particular brand needs to be stopped and that is indeed an ideological -- and a relgious -- issue. It can also be done but it will take years.

I seriously doubt that you can trim that 3M down to a few tens of thousands but even if you could, that figure has a disproportionate ability to do great harm to the west, its people and its institutions. The west for many reasons is ill equipped to cope with this form of attack. Not just terror per se but the entire effort which is far broader and potentially more harmful than the terror element -- as has been said, that is merely a tactic. The strategy of the Islamists is far more encompassing and dangerous than the tactic.

I have no quarrel with dialogue and would only suggest that it be must based on reasonable expectations and aim for achievable results. I'd also suggest that any dialogue with the ME, arguing from less than a position of strength is an invitation to major problems.

I agree with your last paragraph but we probably differ on the degree and type of effort to effect what is needed.

Heh

(#4952)

Pretty funny to see the RedStaters try to defend themselves in a forum where the don't control the trusty "Blam" stick. Doesn't seem to work too well.

History, culture and people

(#4966)

Mr. TXG1112,

People do not exist independently of their social environment (which is a common radical libertarian error). All political sides are really members in loose yet discrete "tribes", even libertarians and anarchists.

History defines peoples attitudes to most public policy. The heroes and triumphs and tragedies of the past have a huge influence on the attitudes of today. A prudent voter should look at what Democrats, for instance, have to be proud of, and all of these are expansions of government authority.

Culture, in this case, refers to the attitudes that people bring to their analysis. People live in limited circles, and their range of thought is constrained by their associations. Democrats, at least of the policy-designing sort, are perhaps a more narrow-minded body than any other US political side has to offer. There is no idea percolating there that is not some sort of expansion of government authority. These peoples thoughts run along entirely heirarchical lines. There must be a law for or against anything, no matter what.

And then there are the actual people the party consists of or represents. The Democratic party is the party of government. The majority of government employees and those others who work under the tightest government regulation are the last true bastion of unionization in the US, and government employees are by far more Democratic than most other occupational groups. Another major group are poor people who depend directly on government assistance of all kinds.

By breeding, education, and interests the Democrats as a party are irreconcilably inimical to the libertarian outlook, other than in the rather trivial matter of social mores, which for the most part are not matters of law.

wow, just wow.

(#4993)
TXG1112's picture

Democrats, at least of the policy-designing sort, are perhaps a more narrow-minded body than any other US political side has to offer. There is no idea percolating there that is not some sort of expansion of government authority.

My head asplode! you are engaging in just the same problem by ascribing charistics to democrats that exists only in your own mind. I have no love for elected Democrats. But the "Democrats are worse" trope is risible, and not even worth discussion.

Do not confuse the fringe Objectiveists with real libertariians, and I don't think I will be taking any advice on the nature of liberty from you.

--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.

Scoff if you like

(#5015)

Mr. TXG1112,

In my experience in reading public-policy journals and meeting people in the fields of energy and education (my professional and private interests), the public-policy "bullpen" of any Democratic administration is as I have described it.

You can of course over-generalize, but some things are true in a broad sense, and this is one of them. The liberal side of many of these issues is so self-contained, being such a majority in the academic world, that they are often entirely unaware of anything on the other side. The opposite case does not exist, the conservatives read the liberals because their output is ubiquitous.

Scoff I must

(#5030)
TXG1112's picture

for the alternative is worse. :) What party has proposed the largest budget increases since LBJ? the largest entitlement since Medicare? Really?! Big government Republicans don't just want your money, they want to tell you how to live, and make the most personal of decisions for you.

Since you seem to like broad generalizations, I'll make a few of my own.

Republicans embrace racist and homophobic policy simply as an electoral tactic, even thought they don't believe it. The have become nothing more than a front for authoritarian schemes to loot the public treasury. The embrace the ever increasing police state, in an effort to use the power of government to thwart their political enemies.

None of these things is really true, but they bear much closer resemblance to the truth than your pack of moldy rhetoric.

--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.

carve out national security and defense spending

(#5050)

and what does the budget increase look like.

Republicans and racist policy, a recent example if you might be so kind.

I'll look for your response and go from there.

““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H

According to Cato,

(#5054)
HankP's picture

"non-defense discretionary spending will have skyrocketed by almost 28 percent." here. But maybe next time you can provide the stats for your points?

I blame it all on the Internet

I don't think he said they were worse, just narrow minded. True

(#5026)

in my observation.

TXG, Asplode was Funny....

(#5106)

....we visit the Forvm for various reasons, but I really like it as a mirror into other people's lives. Weird stuff, interesting stuff, stuff you'd never find on your own.

I watched all of Asplode....from start to finish.

Is anything wrong with me?....lol

Best Wishes,

Traveller

No, you're OK

(#5116)
TXG1112's picture

< a href="http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail.html">Strong Bad is one of the more amusing things on these internets. There are dozens of those clips, and there are others sections of the website devoted to other characters. Particular favorites of mine are guitar and dragon.

--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.

Libertarians are fun.

(#4944)

They care about lower taxes. Some of them care about being able to shoot very large-caliber firearms.

The rest is window dressing. They'll vote for Republicans as long as Republicans promise lower taxes. Drug wars, repeal of habeas corpus, outlawing "sodomy," whatever -- if you tax 'em twenty bucks less, they'll vote for you. Reliable folks.

"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes

Are you always so bitterly skeptical of those who

(#4949)

don't conform to your views?

I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!

Impact?

(#4967)

Cats and dogs sleeping together! Jim Webb novels! Bandits!

The complete moral decay of Western Civilization!

Damn libertines have no regard for th…

Oh, wait…

Nevermind.

What I meant to say is that librarians are very important. If you like books and 'shhhhhing'.

“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”

Liberacians?

(#4969)

People don't understand the impact of a good candelabra these days.

M Aurelius was probably right.

You mean libations, Ken's here somewhere <nt>

(#5017)

xxx

I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!

8.5!

(#5096)

I'm taking over Ken's job as humor critic.

Keep that up and I'll get restored to my crticship, I'd have

(#5097)

given him a 9.5 on that one.

You're hard, Lady... :)

No.

(#5077)

The problem with libertarians is that I knew too many of them when I was fourteen, and most of us grew out of it.

Fundamentally, libertarianism is the "philosophy" of those who are very privileged under the current system and wish to make themselves moreso. I say "philosophy," because any strain of thought which says, "Always vote for the person who promises you lower taxes, no matter what," isn't precisely a philosophy.

"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes

The fringe

(#4994)
TXG1112's picture

of any movement is strange and ugly. Don't believe the hype, not all libertarians are Objectivists.

--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.

you're missing ...

(#5335)

... the whole smaller government aspect.
Even if taxes are lower, if the state is still spending as much money, it's still occupying the same amount of "space" in society. It is still paying people to do it's bidding, and shaping the social environment in which you live.

I disagree.

(#5431)

Libertarians don't vote based on smaller government -- not on the Drug War, not on the suspension of habeas corpus, not on gay marriage, not on separation of Church and State. They do vote based on taxes.

Pay attention to what people do, not what they say. People don't always even know themselves why they do what they do, but if someone exhibits a pattern, note it and work with it. This is one of the fundamental insights of economics; pay attention to what people do, not what they say.

"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes

How do you know ...

(#5469)

... got any studies showing that ?

He is

(#5476)

very influenced by the political writings of Ken White.

I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine

Why not Cato?

(#5483)

They have a lovely analysis of self-identified libertarians. I don't trust Cato on much, but if there's something they probably know about, it's Libertarians.

Look at Table 5 -- Nixon exploded the drug war, but he gets 75% of the Libertarian vote. Even the astounding corruption of the Nixon Administration which pushed Ford out of office was not enough to shake their faith in the Republican Party in 1976. Reagan promises tax cuts in 1980, gets 66% of the vote (despite his absurd ratcheting of the Drug War).

Ross Perot took a pile of libertarians away from Bush 41 in 1992; Bush 41 raised taxes. Perot attacked NAFTA, promised to militarize the drug war, and was an overall loonball, but he did promise to lower capital gains taxes.

Clinton decreased the size of the Federal government, but he did raise taxes, so Libertarians bucked the national trend in 1996 and went Republican. Bush 43 promised a massive tax cut; he got 73% of the libertarian vote in 2000, despite Welfare Reform and the Clinton/Gore decrease in government size.

The interesting outlier is 2004 -- Libertarians 18-29 voted for Kerry 71-24, while Libertarians 30-49 voted 72-21 for Bush. Was it the fact that the younger Libertarians figured out that in the absence of spending cuts, tax cuts are irrelevant, or was something else at play? Either way, Bush 43, who is tremendously hostile to civil liberties, took the Libertarians 59-38. Could be the war; libertarians seem to be taken with fantasies regarding the capacities of our enemies and the competence of our current Administration in addressing them.

"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes

Not very good ...

(#5642)

Every single one of those races has plenty of other hugely identifiable factors that would sway the libertarian vote.

In 1972, Nixon promised to end the Vietman war.
The Democrats of that era were the party of massive welfare programs, much farther left than they are today.

Ross Perot got a protest vote, and Dole promised to lower capital gains taxes too, so I don't get this argument either.

Libertarians Went Republican in '96 because of Newt Gingrich, who's been the most libertarian guy to run congress in decades (and got a bad rap from the press for it!).

Bush 43 was running against Gore, whose record on environmenalism made him a safe bet for dramatic increases in regulation.

Occam's razor

(#5716)

Fine, point me to an election in which the libertarian vote went the way of the guy proposing higher taxes.

"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes

For my money, I'd say

(#4960)

Peggy Noonan disagrees.

The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.

Regardless of which party is better,

(#5037)

there seems to be a substantial number of libertarians who have decided, based on the experience of the last four years, that gridlock is better than single-party rule on either side. Libertarians "win", at least to some extent, when both parties are prevented from acting on their authoritarian/big-government fantasies.

AFAICT, the only libertarians who are continuing their support of the GOP are those whose primary concern is the prosecution of the war in Iraq (or the WOT generally), and I don't see that as an essentially libertarian POV.

Bingo!

(#5042)
TXG1112's picture

I mainly see the "War on Terror" as a war on my civil liberties. It also appears to be a war on the public treasury.

--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.

Libertarians depress me.

(#5279)

The don't want to be part of either of the two major parties. That's fine, as far as it goes. Neither do I. But they're too politically inept to offer a viable alternative.

I've tried to get involved in a Libertarian campaign. It was... depressing. They've been around since about 1972, as they're still such rank amateurs. Are they even trying?