We are a little more than one week away from the mid-term election and here at The Forvm and, as near as I can tell, at most other politically oriented websites there is a depressing lack of substantive debate. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of snarky finger pointing, name calling and trash talking, but little debate.
I have suspicions as of why. First, the Republican Party, which has ridden to the political summit as "The Party of Ideas" has become instead the Party of "we'll keep you safe" and "the other guys won't" and seems bereft of new ideas and utterly incapable of telling a compelling story about well, anything. The Democrats, long derided as the "Party of No" has certainly chosen to focus its 2006 campaign around The President. All negative, all the time. The Dems actually have a six point plan but has anybody heard about it? To be fair, it is so filled with goals without tactics for achieving them or any concrete specifics that it is hard to defend.
The electoral goals in the Nation seems to have changed from a focus on capturing the middle to a focus on getting the base out. As a result we see red-meat politics. To our detriment I think. It is getting more and more difficult to actually debate as the human bridges between righties and lefties simply get ignored or treated as indecisive children. It seems to go further than that though. Righties seem to me embarrassed by the Republicans profligate spending and inability to lay out an agenda and verbally defend it. Dems demonstrate the same tendency with an unwillingness to engage in advocating what Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Reid would mean and instead try to distract by playing personality poltics with the golden boy of the moment. Don't get me wrong, both sides have plenty to be embarrassed about and what each is doing is probably the smart, maybe even the only play.
Nonetheless, it is still depressing and even here, where we pride ourselves on substantive debate, the atmosphere a week before is appalling. Well, I suppose we get not only the government we deserve, but the elections too.
Promoted by me to the Front Page: Not out of perfect agreement (I think the dynamic imposed by sound byte media is the big omision here.), but this is an issue dear to me. A country that can't effectively debate policy will sooner or later run into serious trouble. We may already be there. -MA
Spero in Deo
Spero in Deo


Agreed
(#5374)I have noticed the lack of debate as well. My guess is this is happening because of three main reasons:
1) Iraq. There are really no good answers when it comes to Iraq so no one wants to get too detailed when they discuss it. As a result no one discusses it.
2) The hyper-partisanship of the Republican controlled Congress has made useful debate practically impossible. You are either with them or against them and it just isn't worth trying to debate people like that. Also, the Repubs have done such a good job rendering political debate into sound byte sized pieces that they have no place to retreat to when their policies prove unworkable.
3) The Repubs have been in charge long enough that they really have to run on their records, and they just don't have much to crow about in that regard.
"And now you run in search of the Jedi. They are all dead, save one. And one broken Jedi cannot stop the darkness that is to come." -Darth Sion
Midterms are all about the base
(#5375)which isn’t meant as a justification for our current political culture, just that there usually isn’t much of a mushy middle to win over when there isn’t a President being elected.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
Not just the Midterms
(#5379)The Rovian strategy aims to eliminate the mushy middle and has been remarkably successfull to date.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
So it's all about Rove
(#5381)I just have to wonder, who you got a line on to be the next boogieman when Rove rides off into the sunset 2 years from now?
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
Rove isn't
(#5384)hip enough to be considerd much of a boogieman. As for bogeymen, I'm confident the GOP too will have had enough of Bush/Rove by the time '08 rolls around.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
Which is why I asked you
(#5388)who was next in line to be appointed the evil genius for Progressives to spew their 5 minutes of hate at once he leaves?
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
I'm confident
(#5394)the GOP will decide they don't want another Machiavelli running things from within an executive triumvirate that excludes Congress and we can return to the more conventional cut and thrust politics with multiple competing power centers within each party.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
Karl Rove is like Dennis Conner
(#5586)The guy who brought computer modeling into the America's Cup.
Rove will soon be gone but his tactics will live on.
The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.
confusing Conner with Koch
(#5616)Conner could sail, just about anything, whereas Koch couldn't sail anything but understood how the rolling out of new technology would change the game.
Rove beat the Dems at their own game, stuff happens.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
Stuff happens and pendelums swing
(#5621)On the 51% strategy:
Now, the GOP can revel in what Rove wrought:
The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.
Oh, and Timmy you are 100% correct
(#5622)about Koch and Dennis Conner. You a sailing fan?
The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.
Sailed Stars, 110s, FDs, Solings & 410s
(#5628)always the grunt, never the skipper. Very good at bending masts, setting up a boat, working pointing jibs, flying spinnakers and hanging out
BTW, one of my diaries seems to be missing, a new set of parameters no doubt. Maybe Bill you can fill me in.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
Hit your name and go to your recent diaries, it needs a vote to
(#5631)bring it back on the page. I just put one + to counter the -, needs another + or two.
The K Codes explained HERE.
It doesn't appear that I can vote on my own diary
(#5632)(that is I have no access to it) but I have copyright.
It looks like we are going to have to recruit some more conservatives or those on the left are willing to put up with a little heat.
The MA Metric and its little talons.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
You are a better man that I
(#5735)I have hardly sailed anything smaller than a J-24 and I prefer more offshore sailing.
Tartan Ten is my preferred vessel (33 feet one design class) and I am looking to buy one next spring. Maybe. It will eat up a whole lot of time.
Money? T-10s are really quite cheap for a "big boat" capable of doing the Chicago-Macinkac race.
The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.
[Grumbling and more grumbling
(#5773)about freakin' luddite blowboaters]
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
It needn't be about Rove.
(#5396)But it is worth worrying that, as (or in so far as) the techniques for winning elections become more precise and effective, the relative importance of 'ideas', 'character', 'policies' & the like will decline. If Rove tends to be brought up again and again in this regard from the usual suspects, it needn't be as boogieman, but (for the sake of substantive discussion, if not interpretive charity) as the latest and (perhaps) clearest example of a trend.
A man must be orthodox upon most things, or he will never even have time to preach his own heresy.
God I hope you are wrong Hobbesist
(#5397)the techniques for winning elections become more precise and effective, the relative importance of 'ideas', 'character', 'policies' & the like will decline.
Why is this necessarily true? I understand the superior techniques allow for a better "tribal identification," if you will, but couldn't the same techniques be applied to selling new ideas, demonstrating how a given idea will help a given demographic etc?
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
New ideas are running out
(#5400)Mr. Mead,
Pending a great change in socioeconomic structures, we are seeing, I think, a narrowing of the range of possibility in areas like economic policy. There is much less scope than before for big policy swings, as there has been enough experience accumulated to know what the tradeoffs are.
With less substance to argue about the competition has to be more about image and thus tribal affiliation.
Character is a matter of retail politics in anything but a presidential election.
Don't worry, JM.
(#5409)When have you known me to be right about anything?
And you're right that there's no necessary link between technical skill in the winning of elections and poor quality of candidates (and their ideas, policies, etc.). On the one hand, I didn't mean to posit such a link; by 'relative importance', I meant to imply that the advancement of such techniques makes selling sizzle sans steak a heckuva lot easier, not that no one will ever offer steak again (or, worse, a future of nothing but cube steaks!).
On the other hand, I think it is a legitimate worry that, in the sphere of politics, the quality of 'marketing' and the quality of 'products' are, if not incompatible, at least in a potentially dangerous (for the salus publica) kind of tension. I haven't thought this part through enough to elaborate, but it seems worrisomely compelling.
A man must be orthodox upon most things, or he will never even have time to preach his own heresy.
I agree with hobbesist, here
(#5584)The nuts and bolts of winning elections has become a very well developed process. Micro-targeting, immense data bases, huge expenditures on focus groups and the like.
Its jury consultancy writ large.
And just as trial lawyers seek out a select jury of 12 brain dead individuals they can mold, the professional political class -- Democratic and Republican desire a bleating sheep electorate they can mold with their "techniques"
Up until now, the GOP has been better and more professional at this. More money.
But results at governing do matter. :-)
The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.
You know why that is so effective?
(#5489)Because you have such precisely drawn districts. You want to make campaigns about contrasting ideas? Get rid of crap drawn district lines and consideration of racial make-up and go to districts equally dividing the population of a state with as close to a geographic square as you can get. Right now it's just getting 'your' voters in 'your' districts out to polls.
And before anyone goes off on a 'Repubs drew these lines to guarantee their majority' riff, you should note that the Repubs and Dems had complimentary redistricting strategies last time around. The Repubs made as many marginal Repub districts as they could, while Dems were content to make as many no-way they could lose seats as possible. Ironically, that strategy will probably limit the number of seats the Dems can gain this time around since Sheila Jackson Lee winning with 80% of the vote ain't helping win marginal seats in surrounding areas.
Will crush dissent for food
Amen
(#5491)Well.
(#5515)Is there anyone who thinks that gerrymandering districts is a good idea? (Aside from those who benefit from it, natch.) Seriously - anyone?
A man must be orthodox upon most things, or he will never even have time to preach his own heresy.
Yup, 435 folks in DC, there lobbyist pals, the respective
(#5590)party leaders and big donors. They all like predictability.
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
Whence
(#5634)... my "aside" aside. You don't have to be St. John Rawls to think that an arrangement that's acceptable only to those who benefit from it might not be the best one to turn into policy.
A man must be orthodox upon most things, or he will never even have time to preach his own heresy.
I'm in favor of computer drawn districts
(#5516)Start at some random spot on the state border (perhaps drawn by lot) and then have a computer program use GIS mapping data to draw districts. Perhaps do this a few times and let a panel of independent (hah) judges pick the best one.
Guard, protect and cherish your land, for there is no afterlife for a place that started out as Heaven.
Much Like. . .
(#5517). . .proportional distribution of electoral votes by percentage of the popular vote, unless the entire country does it at once it ends up disadvantaging the majority party in the states that do it. In principle, though, I find this suggestion far more appealing an idea than tampering with the Electoral College, as it is less likely to create a mess.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Computer drawn district?
(#5581)Heh! Can I hire the code monkeys?
Anothern idea is to increase the size of Congress. A US House member represents about ten times as many people as a member of the House of Commons.
Perhaps we just triple the size of the House of Representatives. Or quadruple. Then each individual Congress-critter has far fewer constituents to respond to.
The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.
You can hire the code monkeys
(#5591)Or as prefer to call them, Cyber Jedi, as long as I get to write the algorithm and audit the finished code. I can't imagine it would be all that complex.
As far increasing the size of Congress, I'm all for it. It would increase the (small d) democratic representation in the house and somewhat reduce the over-representation of small states in the House and the Electoral College.
Guard, protect and cherish your land, for there is no afterlife for a place that started out as Heaven.
Above and below. Be careful what you wish for. I could
(#5602)make a valid case for reducing the size of the House. Those guys pass alot of dumb laws now and have trouble agreeing on anything. Increase the size and you increase the problems exponentially...
The K Codes explained HERE.
How? Diffuse the power over a larger number of people
(#5606)Total amount of power remains unchanged.
The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.
If you had to chair a committee to get something accomplished,
(#5620)would you opt for a five person or a fifty five person committee?
Why?
The K Codes explained HERE.
The need to "get something accomplished"
(#5623)sort of is the problem.
If Washington got less done and let the 50 states do more . . .
The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.
Exactly. Plus rearrange the tax system to fully fund the
(#5627)States and get rid of the inefficient and costly system of Federal grants and transfers.
The K Codes explained HERE.
They're not always inefficient.
(#5712)There are extremely good risk-sharing and game-theoretic reasons for why some programs, especially police, education, and welfare programs, should be partially or fully Federally funded.
"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes
They don't have a compelling story to tell
(#5377)The overwhelming number of negative personal adds unrelated to policy and/or performance in office are from incumbent Republicans.
Pointing out that the majority government of your opponents party has achieved little whilst enabling the disaster which is Iraq is substantial criticism of the lack of policy and/or bad policy.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
The question remains, what is there to debate?
(#5382)There are no major policy issues at the forefront of this election cycle except for Iraq. We could debate Iraq some more except:
Beyond Iraq, what would you like to debate? Universal Health Care? The minimum wage?
Guard, protect and cherish your land, for there is no afterlife for a place that started out as Heaven.
Seems to me there's plenty, off the top of my head
(#5383)DOMESTIC ISSUES:
Healthcare
Gay marriage
Gun rights
Marginal tax rates
Public schools/vouchers
Preventing medicare from breaking us
Dealing with SS
The onoing privatizations of American biz due to Sarbanes-Oxley
Tradeoff between security and civil rights
Illegal immigration and the Fence
Voter ID requirements
Affirmative action
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Methodology in WoT
Iran
Norks
Missile Defense
Trade relations
Darfur
Aid to Egypt
Relationship with Russia
What to do about China
What to do when Castro dies
How to fix the UN
Maybe most importantly, what should the priorities be from out of the above?
The reason there are no policies out front is that the Dems and Reps aren't putting them there. We should find that unacceptable.
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
This election is about raw power
(#5386)and who gets to control the debate by controling the agenda going forward. Why? Because the GOP currently controls the agenda and doesn't wish to debate any issue but maintaining it.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
If that's true then where is the Dem "Contract with America?"
(#5387)Where is the raft of new Dem ideas?
BTW, ALL elections are about raw power.
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
Wouldn't it be more pertinent
(#5390)to ask what happened to the Republican "Contract with America?"
The GOP is campaining on "stay the course" and not just in Iraq. At this point the Democrats need only reflect the national mood by campaigning on 'change the course' and 'how could we be any worse'.
The Republicans have failed miserably, time for the Democrats to fail, though hopefully not quite so miserably or so quickly.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
You are proof positive that what I said above
(#5393)"We get the elcetions we deserve"
is 100% accurate.
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
First 100 hours
(#5392)Nancy Pelosi has been talking about what she intends a Democratic House to accomplish during the first 100 hours. It isn't on par with the "Contract with America" but it is a guideline to what Dems want to do if they get control of the House.
"And now you run in search of the Jedi. They are all dead, save one. And one broken Jedi cannot stop the darkness that is to come." -Darth Sion
Good Answer
(#5395)Day One: Put new rules in place to "break the link between lobbyists and legislation
I'm on board, how's she going to do that exactly?
Day Two: Enact all the recommendations made by the commission that investigated the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
Gulp, really? All of'em? Bigger bureaucracy here we come! But hey, it's a proposal!
Raise the minimum wage to $7.25 an hour, maybe in one step. Cut the interest rate on student loans in half. Allow the government to negotiate directly with the pharmaceutical companies for lower drug prices for Medicare
Leave aside the merits for a moment, does this timeframe seem remotely, I mean in one's wildest dreams, possible? Gonna get this done in a week?
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
100 hours is most likely hyperbole...
(#5401)...but it does give an indication of what the Dems want to do.
I took a look at Pelosi's webpage and she has a link to a pdf version of "A New Direction for America" On page 27 of that booklet she details how she intends to "break the link between lobbyists and legislation."
"And now you run in search of the Jedi. They are all dead, save one. And one broken Jedi cannot stop the darkness that is to come." -Darth Sion
Given the house and senate,
(#5402)maybe not a week but pretty quickly. Remember, Pelosi's strategy is to campaign for 08 with popular legislation.
Break the link between lobbyists
(#5580)and Congress? How?
Subpeona Jack Abramoff's files. All of them.
Re-hire those 60 investigators Jerry Lewis and Hastert just fired. Then, as soon as the GOP regains control of the House do the exact same thing to the entrenched Democrats.
The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.
price controls on the pharma industry
(#5612)maybe Michael J. Fox is backing the wrong party.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
Here in Michigan
(#5436)I've been keeping a close eye on our gubernatorial debates here in Michigan, and there are a number of issues consistently brought up:
Jobs
Jobs
Free Trade
Jobs
Jobs
Outsourcing
Jobs
Jobs
Business Taxes
Jobs
Once in awhile, the candidates will mention healthcare, the importing of Canadian trash, education, abortion, and the foster care and prison systems in Michigan.
Affiramitve action is on the ballot here in Michigan, as are proposals on education and environmental spending.
But if the governor's race is any indicator, the issues in Michigan are jobs and the economy. Granted, the citizens care about more than just jobs, but the Republican challenger seems to only be able to say "worst unemployment in the nation" "time for change" and "I'm a proven jobs maker" while the Democratic governor likes to say "Amway" "sent jobs to China" "biggest donor to Bush" and "supported free trade agreements that have hurt Michigan." Needless to say, social issues aren't taking the center stage in Michigan. Jobs are.
Ha
(#5437)That whole Canadian trash thing cracks me up. If everyone who says they are against it actually voted against it then it wouldn’t be an issue anymore. Why the whole thing is an issue to begin with is a mystery to me. It isn’t like there are too many other things that can be done with Canton or Milford. Besides Canadian trash trucks could be a great way to reintroduce wolverines to Michigan.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
Well....
(#5446)Being a student at Michigan State, I don't know if I can get behind anything that might mean more wolverines in Michigan.
Sparty on
(#5450)I used to go up to Cedar Village in East Lansing as a senior in high school and pay a dollar to get in keg parties, what a town.
And if Canadian trash isn't enough to bring people out to the polls I'm sure dove hunting will.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
big ten parties
(#5490)i used to refuse to pay 4 dollars to get into a keg party at Champaign/Urbana (3 was my limit) cause they were trying to "rip me off". I think about that every time i pay my 5 dollars for a bud.
Nowadays
(#5494)It's $5 to buy a cup at parties. That's the accepted price up here in East Lansing.
My friends at Michigan scoff at this - there is no charge for cups at Ann Arbor parties. This is mostly due to the fact that daddy buys the kegs.
Oh, that and everyone who went to Michigan is better than you.
[/UM hate]
Well you'd be ripped off
(#5743)if you had to pay to get into Ann Arbor keggers because they're lame. But what the school lacks in a party scene it makes up for with its football team, #2 in the country when they march into Columbus- Huzzah!
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
All politics is local
(#5438)I've been doing some work on various states' economic indicators over the past 20 years or so; Michigan has been suffering for a long time. If there's one place in the country where job creation should come to the forefront, it's there.
"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes
Not old enough to confirm it from experience
(#5442)But I have often heard that Michigan is one of the first states to dip into recession ahead of the rest of the country, and one of the last to climb out. So while the rest of the country enjoys the new prosperity, Michigan is just coming out of the recession.
Some pertinent stuff
(#5389)Mr. Mead,
One is a comment by our esteemed founder himself - see the third bit -
http://www.claremont.org/weblog/005314.html
The other of course is the piece he references -
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/29/fashion/29rift.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=all
In a nutshell politics has become a much more emotional issue than formerly, people are taking these things too personally.
This does seem to be a trend, I have noted it myself. I am one of those Republicans in a Democratic sea, even my wife is a Democrat (though we have never discussed politics).
Mr. Trevino is right in that the outrage is mainly one-way. Even as, oddly enough, in many ways there seems to be a growing practical consensus on a lot of formerly controversial matters. I have seen a lot of this in education.
I wonder
(#5419)Mr. Trevino is right in that the outrage is mainly one-way.
what Josh would think about his former baby: Red State. The vitriol over there is really starting to give me the creeps. Not to discount some very real anger on the left, just wanted to point out how low I think some on the right have sunk.
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
There've always been fanatics on both side, there
(#5425)have always been the DU and the LGF types. Most people -- correctly -- ignore them.
I sure do; both sides. Do note that Josh left Red State of his own volition, don't know why but I suspect that the vitriol was a part of it.
Like some others, I'm still trying to figure out what happened to Moe "The calm moderately right " Lane to tip him into the bitter bit. Never can fully know what drives people's trains...
The K Codes explained HERE.
As to Moe
(#5429)I wonder too. I always liked him. Still do, when he isnt writing politics (he used to be kind of snarky, but now just seems kind of mean) or banning people left and right.
You are right, Red State just isn't Josh's scene at all anymore. What is scary is, I used to read them because they were reasonable folks on the right. They seemed to have gone right off the rails lately though.
I guess I'll stick around here for reasonable folks on the right.
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
I'm hoping to spend some more time here myself
(#5463)Can't say I particularly appreciated RS basically calling Webb a pedophile, or their continuous mischaracterizations of Ford -- both of them, oddly enough, Democrats whom the right would do well to encourage. I think election season brings out the nastiness in general.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Yeah
(#5477)I saw you there trying to inject a little sanity into the proceedings. Didn't get very far, unfortunately. That place is sorta like a car wreck lately...I just can't stop looking.
I'm waiting for someone from over there to come rebuke me here.
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Policy diaries
(#5391)Well, go ahead and write them. Here's one:
http://theforvm.org/diary/username/what-would-democrats-do
On the "Six Point Plan"
(#5399)Mr. Mead,
I disagree on its lack of substance. Some of the things it asks for are indeed "mom and apple pie", a lot is ritual and routine anathemization of the other side and demonization of the usual suspects like energy and drug companies, some are fairly minor matters like the minimum wage increase, but some of the specifics are indeed a departure, if seriously meant.
"Energy independence" to start. This is potentially a major departure from the ideal of the market as a means to manage scarcity. It could just be window dressing, but it could, if seriously pursued, also be a disaster. It is one thing to subsidize a few high-profile wind farms here and there as a minor boondoggle. But those parts about "consumer relief" (consumer subsidies ?), "no tax breaks for energy companies" (drilling/nuclear development restrictions or discouragement of power plant construction ?). And so on and so forth.
It could be mostly rhetoric. It could also be an indication of the Democrats fundamental ignorance and miseducation.
There is also a theme there about an element of opposition to free trade, which admittedly is not confined entirely to the Democratic party. But it is somewhat different from the policy of the Clinton administration.
And then there is the surprisingly muted and tentative (the rhetoric here is more whiny than decisive) call for universal health care. I really wonder what is going on there. Perhaps a reluctance to be attacked for being "tax and spend" ? Maybe a real conversion to practicality ?
No
(#5725)And then there is the surprisingly muted and tentative (the rhetoric here is more whiny than decisive) call for universal health care. I really wonder what is going on there. Perhaps a reluctance to be attacked for being "tax and spend" ? Maybe a real conversion to practicality ?
This is just an acknowledgement that Presidential leadership will be required for comprehensive health care reform. I would be surprised if this wasn't a lead issue for the Democratic candidate in 2008.
Of course, that you consider resigning ourselves to the economic disaster that is our health care system to be a "conversion to practicality" boggles the mind more than a little. Considering that our system is adequate would require a conversion to "blinkered ideological orthodoxy" instead.
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
This isn't fair.
(#5404)The Dems have a "first 100 hours" and a "six point plan," but they have no ideas and are the Party of No. I'm not sure what Dems have to do to demonstrate that they have a set of ideas and are interested in implementing them.
That said, you listed a series of policy discussions; the problem is, liberals have correctly recognized that there is no purpose to attempting to discuss policy in the current circumstances. We cannot get anything passed for the next two years, period. The only thing we can do is contain the damage, and so our policy priorities are centered around that.
If the Dems take the House or Senate, come 2007, you're going to see what you saw in 2003 -- a vibrant debate within the Democratic Party about security, health care, and various foreign and domestic issues. But as long as there exists a Decider and a Rubber Stamp Congress, there is literally no return to policy discussion. And, as believers in the free market know, people are rational and respond to incentives.
"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes
There are no policy discussions, period
(#5411)Mr. Kimmitt,
Whenever the Republicans were out of power this was an intense period, in the think-tanks, that saw the development of a very rich public policy agenda, so powerful that even Democrats adopted elements of it.
There is no such energy in the Democrats public policy farm system these days, and there hasn't been in many years. If you want an example of what they are thinking, go have a look at Brookings. Check out the "Education" publications section for example. For years they have mostly been publishing things that came from people from the Right (as this has been defined since the 1960's), or even those affiliated with Hoover.
Again, playing defense.
(#5418)and there hasn't been in many years
First, this isn't true. I was part of the Democratic Presidential primary, and there was a massive and very rich debate on foreign policy and health care, in particular, with ancillary debates on environmental and other policies.
Second, yes, that's my point -- the current political climate is different from other political climates. Before, if the Repubs (back when they were capable of such) came up with a good idea, even if they weren't in power, there was a chance that they could get it introduced, discussed, and possibly implemented. These days, with the "majority of the majority" strategies practiced by Hastert and Frist, that's no longer possible. Again, people respond to incentives; if there is no possibility that any policy will be implemented -- or even debated on the floor -- until the Dems get a House of Congress, then concentrate your efforts on getting back a forum in which to speak.
"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes
Transparent excuses
(#5448)for playing hide the ball or worse, conceding that The Secret Plan doesn't even exist (which you seem to be doing).
Under the circumstances, wouldn't it be honest for the Dems to simply say "all we're trying to do at this point is take over the House and/or the Senate [or 'getting back a forum in which to speak,' as you put it] and we'll figure out what to do once that happens"?
We're even seeing that here at our very provincial, local level, where simpletonic Dems point to pictures of their R. opponents and say "don't vote for him - he supports Bush." One of them, a hack machine candidate for the US House who couldn't find the Korean Peninsula on a map without help, criticized the Bush policy on N Korea in a recent debate. Her alternative: well, of course there was none - just "don't vote for someone who supported Bush." It might work, but it's nothing to be proud of or to brag about - just politics as usual.
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson
I'm Plenty Proud!
(#5454)Suggesting that the majority party is both incompetent and morally bankrupt works just fine for me. Throw the bums out, and start all over again.
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
At least you're honest about it.
(#5479)I have no problem with the Dems stating their position just as clearly as you have - it's all the BS about a Secret Hat -er, Plan that's so hypocritical.
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson
I wouldn't talk about
(#5481)Secret Plans if I were a Republican....
--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.
Except
(#5503)It was actually '68 when Nixon had the secret plan.
which he implemented and won the 72 election in a
(#5573)landslide, er 49 out of 50 states.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
And then, went on to get reelected in spite of a major
(#5575)scandal -- and by another big margin. Partly because his opponent, for the second time, was a total loser. You'd think the Democratic party would learn from that.
Apparently not...
The K Codes explained HERE.
And your point is?
(#5560)I don't live in Montana - and I wasn't alive in '72. (Well, one of two isn't bad.)
If you have to go back to Nixon to find a parallel, you might want to come up with a better argument. Not that I disagree with your comparison of the modern Dems to Nixon . . .
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson
The point
(#5772)is that you have accused a Democrat of having "secret plans", which up to now, has been the providence of Republicans both recent and distant. If you can't see the cognitive dissonance in your "secret plan" comments, then I can't help you. I'm not making an argument so much as an observation.
--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.
More forceful,
(#5480)something like, "Let's go over to DC burn it all down and start over. We'll use the rotten and decaying corpses of our enemies as the manure to cultivate and sustain our own 'New World Order'! The Secret Plan starts now!!" or words to that effect... :)
I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
There is a plan.
(#5488)It consists of the consensus measures laid out in docs that JM referenced. That's a good year's worth of work -- once they start rolling, you'll see a very good "Okay, now where are we headed?" discussion.
"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes
You're looking in the wrong place
(#5721)The right gets their ideas from think tanks; the left gets them from academia.
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
Don't give them a target
(#5555)There was a conscious decision on the Democratic side to downplay the 'six-point' plan. The idea was to not draw attention away from the President's failings by giving the Republicans a policy target to attack. Anything that makes this election less of a referendum on Bush hurts the Democrats, the thinking goes.
I have to admit I was initially disappointed by the Democrats' decision. However, given the recent polling, I have to admit that this was probably smart politics. Of course, the final word will be uttered at the polls. Should the Democrats fail to inspire a decent turnout and, God forbid, fail to capture the House then this decision will be the number one suspect in the failure.
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
Please
(#5557)After Rove, Diebold, voting against interests and creeping fascism that will barely make the top five. Give the nutroots until November 10th and it won't even make the top 10.
Will crush dissent for food
Please...
(#5724)... take the time to write something comprehensible, if you take the time to write at all. What is 'that'? The six-point plan? Bush?
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
That equals
(#5730)'Should the Democrats fail to inspire a decent turnout and, God forbid, fail to capture the House then this decision will be the number one suspect in the failure.'
The nutroots have shown a remarkable inability for the last three election cycles to look internally at their own policy proposals as the cause of their electoral problems. Why would they start now by looking at their lack of policy proposals as their number one problem? They will delude themselves into thinking that they just need to be tougher and respond more vitriolicly(I'm not even sure that's a word, but it fits) to any attacks, or that the election was stolen or whatever else can be dreamed up in the crack pipe that is DU and Kos.
In many ways, it's like watching an alcoholic explain why they were arrested for DUI. Very rarely is too much alcohol among the listed reasons.
Will crush dissent for food
If the Dems win....
(#5733)...how introspective do you expect the wingnuts to be? What do you expect Righty bloggers to learn from their defeat, if it happens next Tuesday?
"And now you run in search of the Jedi. They are all dead, save one. And one broken Jedi cannot stop the darkness that is to come." -Darth Sion
And you don't have to stop drinking
(#5736)until everyone else does too.
Will crush dissent for food
Can't speak for all the wingnuts
(#5748)but if the Dems win I very much doubt you’ll see all the asinine bleating and excuse making from the starboard side here that the port side subjected Tacitus to after 2004.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
Yup. they will be too busy
(#5750)plotting revenge and confrontational political theater in preparation for 2008.
Anyway, here is a great photo of the Bush-ian fear strategery
The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.
Plotting revenge?
(#5759)You wouldn't be speaking from experience, would you?
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
Not So Sure About That
(#5751)One, we've heard plenty of bleating already. Two, it's simply another indication of how bad this administration has been over the last few years -- not even the wingnuts will mourn their defeat, and, I suspect, many will see it as a necessary wakeup call.
And if Gore had been declared the winner in 2000? Your hair would still be on fire.
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
Nothing here has approached
(#5757)blaming a democratic Rove for every set back, "Jesusland" and the wetting of Progressive drawers over evangelicals, or the incessant whining about wedge issues and Republican discipline. If the dems win next Tuesday and any conservative here blames it on anything but the Republicans not living up to their campaign promises then I'll be among the first to call them out.
And no, I have my preferences for the high office, but life for me moves on under President Bush or Gore, I have too much going on to be unhealthily obsessed by such things.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
Heh
(#5760)Well we all envy your 'too much going on'. You rock!
Couple things, however. Once upon a time, the Democratic Rove was named Carville. And while you may be too young to remember, he was the cause of a great number of wet drawers. (Tho' most of the whining back then was about how Perot handed the WH to Clinton.)
Also, pointing out the structure of the GOP majority, the role evangelicals play in it, and the wonderfully apt hypocrisy that ties up the relationship in a neat little bow -- this is less whining than observation. Ditto re the successful employment of wedge issues.
But hey. That's sorta how it works. The losers try to figure out why they lost. There's fingerpointing and whining and unnecessary complaint. There's also some accurate analysis as to why it all went wrong.
As you will see in approximately one week's time. Enjoy!
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
No, at most only half here
(#5769)are motivated by envy on any given subject, it is the half that posses that lean and hungry gaze toward the “rich” and want them to pay “their fair share”. If they envy me at all it is only a further testament to the lack of balance in their lives as opposed to how much I rock.
I was old enough to remember Carville and he was no Rove. Carville was Clinton’s ugly little attack dog, something of a second White House Press Secretary, I don’t recall him ever being labeled an evil genius and the source of all the Republicans electoral woes.
Observation would entail linking policy to advocacy groups, not crybagging over “Jesusland”.
And like I said if the Republicans lose next week the finger pointing around here will be straight at the Republicans, whining and unnecessary complaint is reserved for the other side and for my part the lack of liberals freaking out will be my biggest disappointment if they do in fact take over a chamber of Congress, not what a Democratic takeover means to Republicans.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
Campaign promises?
(#5766)Do tell.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
One among many is
(#5780)Republicans are suppose to be the party of small government, obviously most Americans feel they have failed at that-
“Queried about their views on the role of government, 54 percent of the 1,013 adults polled said they thought it was trying to do too many things that should be left to individuals and businesses. Only 37 percent said they thought the government should do more to solve the country's problems.”
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
That's an assumption
(#5786)based on their historical record.
What are they promising on this time around?
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
You'll have to explain to me
(#5792)how being voted out of office for failing to live up to past assumptions has anything to do with what they’re promising this time around, except not trusting them to live up to their promises this time around either. I don’t see any other connection between what I asserted and what you’re asking.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
Quote
(#5798)I'm not asking your considered opinion regarding the traditional view of what the GOP stands for, I'm asking specificaly what are they promising this time around?
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
And I asked
(#5805)what does promising anything this time around have to do with being booted from office for not living up to past promises. It makes little sense that an incumbent would be judged on campaign promises this time around instead of what he has/hasn't delivered in office.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
What about Redstate and LGF?
(#5765)Those sites are more in line with dKos and DU than
TacitusThe Forvm is. Do you expect the Redstaters and LGF'ers to react much better than the moonbat masses over at DU and dKos did in 2004? I don't. My guess is there will be an orgy of excuse making at those two sites and the rest of the Righty blogosphere. I also have to say I won't hold it against them if they do go a bit crazy if they lose next Tuesday. Losing an election isn't a fun thing to experience, and like any other loss there is a process to go through before you accept the loss. IOW, I will feel their pain next Tuesday if they lose the House and/or the Senate."And now you run in search of the Jedi. They are all dead, save one. And one broken Jedi cannot stop the darkness that is to come." -Darth Sion
I don't read Redstate or LGF
(#5771)so I have no idea how they will react, but I would not be surprised if it mimicked the nutters at Kos or DU. However, I do expect the conservatives here to act exponentially more mature than the liberals have for the past two election cycles.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
The GOP have no policy proposals
(#5739)except as needed to instill fear in their base.
The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.
So..
(#5764)If the Dems win, will it be because of their issues -- stem cell research, the minimum wage, Iraq, etc. -- or does the causality only work if they fail?
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
To pick three candidates
(#5783)Are Harold Ford, Jr, Heath Shuler and Jim Webb running on those issues? Are their positions similar to the Dem leadership? Or are they running as ABB candidates aping Repub positions?
Will crush dissent for food
Bush isn't up for re-election
(#5789)the issue is each candidates recent/expected subservience to Bush and his Administrations unpopular policies.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
I thought that was perfectly....
(#5731)....comprehensible. And he's right, too. :^)
"Unfortunately the universe doesn't agree with me. We'll see which one of us is still standing when this is over." -- Eliezer Yudkowsky
Would that we all...
(#5763)were blessed with your sixth instinct regarding mysterious pronouns.
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
Given Rove's 51% strategy
(#5592)what is there to talk about?
Great line from Billmon:
Now, there is no sweeping narrative for EITHER party. We have a clique of 1970s college Republican who care ONLY for power versus a bunch of confused aging liberals.
Both the GOP and Democratic party need to sweep out the dead wood and bring in new blood. Until then, there simply is little to discuss because its all either (1) inside baseball stuff or (2) talking points aimed at the lowest common demoninator.
The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.
I have to agree.
(#5727)Chief example is the House race in my home district, New York's 20th District where both the incumbent, Republican John Sweeney and his challenger, Democrat Kirsten Gillibrand have slung truckloads of mud at each other. This is a close race in a normally safe GOP district, so now the DCCC and the RCCC are airing their own attack ads. The political commercials here are starting to make the Jerry Springer show look like an episode of Mr Roger's Neighborhood in comparison.
"I've been on food stamps and welfare. Anybody help me out? No!" Craig T. Nelson (6/2/2009)
This is Silly
(#5749)Midterm elections are always a referendum on the party in power. Full stop. Nothing new, tragic, or particularly newsworthy about it. That an examination of the failures of the party in power has trumped detailed policy debates should come, therefore, as no surprise.
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
True, of course.
(#5753)But I for one see it as relevant because detailed policy debates haven't been happening for some time now.
Kerry, as a leading democrat and running for office, not only voted for the war but wanted to avoid the issue at all costs in the early primaries. Something Dean didn't let him do.
But he never engaged in a policy debate. He pinned his entire campaign -and the war vote itself- on "electability".
This is a real problem for democrats, and it isn't going away any time soon.
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
Agreed
(#5755)But this is hardly limited to the Dems. The problem with putting an actor with a couple simplistic ideas and a head full of sawdust in the WH -- sorry, kidding! -- is that it inspires a generation of politicians to follow his example.
Lead with your biography, a large helping of charisma, and a couple (one?) simplistic ideas. Communicate said idea thru easily digestible slogans. Repeat as necessary.
Policy debates are for policy wonks, so they say. And that's not what gets you to the White House or anywhere else. So they say.
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
I think...
(#5761)...you misunderestimate Reagan.
He was far from the heroic president portrayed by conservatives, and yes, he did often follow a script or marks on the floor. And also there was the White House astrologer thing, not to mention Iran-Contra.
But Reagan, in his way, really was broadly representative of an important chunk of the population which was being ignored. He was a traditional conservative. He was an "I'm paying for this microphone" kind of person, and that rang a bell. He was also, in the end, more humane and flexible than bush. He evolved through the presidency, particularly with the Russians (Thanks in no small part to Gorbachov, but OTOH you could put Ghandi himself in front of bush and he would learn nothing, the man is simply closed.). Reagan's second term was even tolerable.
You are right though that Reaganism begat much of what we see today. But I think this is more of a product of the myth-making machine built around Reagan than about Reagan himself.
And, my point, this was also enabled by the total lack of democratic leadership in the 80's. I mean, we offered Dukakis to the electorate. Dukakis. No friggin' fault insurance Dukakis. I mean, there is only so much you can blame the GOP for.
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
Agreed Again!
(#5762)Particularly when it comes to distinguishing between Reagan and Reaganism.
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco