Honesty is the best policy


Hat to tip to Liberty Papers for this video from reason.tv

Feel free to embed the video, moderators.

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classy guys (#93183)
by Micky Love

Those interviewed believe in class warfare as a means to get what they want.

If Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and John McCain believe themselves engaged in class warfare, no way are they on the same side as those Leninists. Just check out who is funding their campaigns.

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Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

I know... (#93186)
by John

I just thought it was funny. :)

But I do tend to view this meta-matter somewhere between your view and the view of Stephen over at Liberty Papers where he says:

While most people we run into in our daily lives don’t call themselves Marxists or Socialists (they are probably clueless about these philosophies), many of them are calling for some of these very things.

I'd call it a shadowy negative image of the clear and bright picture cast by those protesters.

I think a lot of people see redistribution of wealth schemes (#93189)
by Jordan

as inherently Marxist, but of course the impulse to use the government to siphon money out of some people and give it to others is old as spinning sticks to make a fire.

Redistribution is going gangbusters in modern America, from Medicare to the vast riches made off defense contracts in Iraq; from ethanol subsidies to healthcare.

Do people who feel they're gradually losing what little they have have a natural impulse to soak those who are accumulating record wealth from the sweat of their brow? You're damn tootin. That's the resentment the Communists always tried to stir up and organize, but it's a lot older than they are, and will be around long after they're a historical curiosity. The haves are afraid: they should be afraid. The have nots are angry: in many cases, they should be angry. All governments find themselves sooner or later mediating this basic conflict of interest in a society.

We in America did pretty well in the postwar years, but the problem now is the rich keep accumulating more and more wealth, power, and influence and there's no natural mechanism to stop the process. Since gigantic conflicts of interest and inequality of political influence are dangerous to functioning democracy, I'd say we have a problem that's only going to get bigger.

Oh and by the way, I have no idea how to embed the video from your source. I'd make a bad technocrat. :)

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

But thanks anyway :) (#93195)
by John

I'm bad with images and videos. Being a Moderator at Swords Crossed, I can use the edit function on diaries and sometimes I go into diaries that have videos and pictures. I stare at all the code and still can't quite figure it out....though I have managed to cut and paste the code at times and just change the URL and it worked it!

As for the history of class interest, that's why I despise Marx so much. He gave credibility to these impulses by making "alchemic" tomes that sought to intellectualize the idea with factual-sounding theories and principles...nonsense.

The ripple effects are still with us.

Marx is pretty good as a critic (#93200)
by Jordan

of modern economies...when it comes to solutions he makes a few bad predictions and then his followers took the theory straight off the rails. For instance the notion that social classes are clearly defined like opposing armies in the field, rather than fluid, evolving alignments of interest & habits. The idea that a modern nation-state could coexist without conflict with the aims of a workers' paradise. There's also the weird notion gleaned from Hegel that historical dialectic processes "resolve" themselves and that history has some kind of a natural end state. Hegel should've read more Chuang Tzu. Ditto Fukuyama.

Still, the notion that a general workers'/tenants' uprising is inevitable given the accumulation of wealth still seems possible to me; a conflict that has been deferred in our time by "outsourcing" labor to cultures undergoing their own versions of the industrial revolution. The crushing, subsistence-level manufacturing in our time is carried out by simple villagers recently driven from their customary rural ways of life by massive land enclosures, just as was the case in Marx's London. And just as in the 1840s, today's sweatshop laborers haven't been urbanized enough to be capable of organizing, unionizing, legislating in order to negotiate better conditions. But eventually, presumably, there will be no untapped pre-industrial populations left to exploit, workers of the world will be more or less acculturated and "united," and then the conflict will indeed have to be resolved.

Needless to say, organizing an armed and bloody revolution is not a good way to resolve it. And also needless to say, any resolution will not be the "end of history," but only another in the endless series of accomodations people make with each other and a changing world.

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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

I guess. (#93214)
by Punditus Maximus

We had the uprisings -- 1848, followed by the rise of unions. It was low-level, and Marx failed to predict the massive rise in productivity which resulted from our masteries of chemistry and biology (hardly surprising), but his predictions as to what would happen were decent. It's just that his prescriptions of what to do about it were nowhere near as carefully thought out.

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It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

But that rise in productivity,.... (#93225)
by Bernard Guerrero

....not to mention the creation of entirely new fields and products, were the basic defining features of the IR. He had a good idea of what would happen under basically unrealistic conditions. In that sense, he was as correct or incorrect as Malthus, except that Malthus can be excused for expecting that the way things had always worked would be the way they'd work in the future. Marx was right in the middle of the revolution in productivity, so you can't give him a bye.

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The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
- H.L. Mencken

Heeuw. (#93270)
by Punditus Maximus

Was the growth by the mid-19th due to new tech or deepened capital intensity? I was under the impression that R&D returned very disappointing dividends until chemistry got off the ground.

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It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

re: Chemistry getting off the ground (#93274)
by Bernard Guerrero

Well, you had guys like William Perkin developing dye stuffs in the early 1850s and Bessemer got his patent in 1855. This is nearly contemporaneous with the '48 and predates the publication of "Capital" by decades. I'd argue that Marx was watching the flaws in his theory develop even as he was putting it to paper.

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The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
- H.L. Mencken

Agreed. (#93217)
by John

.

Yeah... (#93206)
by John

pretty much my friend from France says about Marx...decent social commentary...and that's about it.

But rather than enlighten with truth and solutions, he feeds the misconceptions and stokes the flames.

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