Cross Our Hearts and Hope to Die Open Thread

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"Some girls rape easy."

(#292725)

If you're (still) wondering why Republicans are losing with women, this might help explain.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Republican House's public hearing blows CIA cover on CSPAN?

(#292726)

It would seem that Darrell Issa's investigation into the Benghazi attack might have revealed the location and staffing of a CIA facility near the consulate there, and that it might have been CIA ops who failed to save the Ambassador.

 

Anyone else think the effort to get to the bottom of what went wrong and the effort to embarrass the administration might, just might, be at cross purposes here?

 

What's next? Cut the CIA's budget? Oh wait, they're already doing that....

M Aurelius was probably right.

Whoops.  I'm sure we can

(#292778)

Whoops.  I'm sure we can expect a (long!) BD diary on the GOP's politically motivated treason shortly.

I'd be Satisfied with Just GOP Treason...And Happy to Read it.nt

(#292823)

Traveller

Exactly!

(#292909)
Bird Dog's picture

Because a mistaken disclosure, if that's what it was, is treason! Death to Issa!

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particula

Cross purposes, indeed

(#292908)
Bird Dog's picture

Such as making the false claim that security was "robust" when 16 security personnel were dropped in the prior month. After all, Obama can't come across as being indifferent when it comes to security.

Such as blaming attacks on a YouTube video when it was actually a premeditated attack by al Qaeda elements, and then trying to downplay the story and drag out the investigation until after the election. After all, Obama can't be seen as being weak on the WAMI. It hurts the narrative that he defeated al Qaeda.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particula

Oh come on, dude.

(#292915)

There is no narrative that Obama has "defeated" al Qaeda. I don't think anyone in this country who is not a teenager between 13 & 24 believes or would believe anyone who claimed to believe that al Qaeda has been defeated. The O administration certainly hasn't rolled out any kind of Mission Accomplished banner. I mean, seriously. What the Obama administration is doing is they are quietly and ruthlessly drone-bombing anybody who might be on the al Qaeda Christmas Card list, and they have given no indication that they think the job is done or will be done any time soon. Yes, they're taking political credit for some substantial victories, but they have not declared capital V Victory.

 

Clearly someone in the State Dept. screwed up...it might well have been Ambassador Stevens himself. The buck does indeed stop with Obama. I wish you luck at the effort to turn an attack on a US consulate into an embarrassment for the President, but the fact remains that this guy is no friend to al Qaeda and they damned well know it.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Then you haven't been paying attention

(#292952)
Bird Dog's picture

Quote:

"The goal that I set - to defeat al Qaeda, and deny it a chance to rebuild - is within our reach."

The Benghazi attacks conflict with Obama's narrative. Al Qaeda rebuilt right there in Libya and they killed Americans. The buck stops with Obama. Even though security was a concern, they reduced security forces in August, so the claim that security was "robust" is FALSE. The weeks-long claims that the attacks were a spontaneous reaction to a video were FALSE. Given the timing of the attacks and subsequent false claims, the political motivations couldn't be more obvious. Yep, there were indeed cross purposes coming from Obama and his people. And last night, Biden did nothing but perpetuate more nonsense on the subject.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particula

Oh, so you're saying Obama actually likes al Qaeda?

(#292953)

I suppose he's been encouraging them all along.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I Don't Understand Why Romney is So TREASONOUS

(#292968)

...in trying to make this point...for cheap political advantage.

 

al Qaeda would love to be given this victory of another successful operation.

 

I personally believe that this was just a lose confederation taking advantage of dusty and stressed times.

 

September 11, rioting in Cairo begins over Innocence of Muslims,  Next door in Libya Stevens is killed, after the Cairo riots began...this may have been planned, but only planned in the sense of waiting for the moment...Innocence of Muslims gave the cover.

 

This is what the facts will bear out.

 

But even it this was not true, it would be extremely foolish and counter productive to give al Qaeda a free....World Wide Propaganda Victory.

 

Has America lost all sense? Even if Osama himself was in Bengazi, this had to be denied at the time...

 

To do otherwise is Treason and giving aide and comfort to the enemy.

 

Besides being untrue factually.

 

Traveller
 

 

 

TREASON? How so?

(#292969)

Cheap political advantage?  Election time is when decisions count.  Obama made a bad call in blaming a low budget 4 month old flick when he knew the attacks were organized.  One could, and I would, say he lied. 

Waiting for the moment?    I dunno, a 1 in 366 (it's a leap year) chance of stupidity breaking out on a particular date: so we have a date that has some significance to AQ, vs a movie that was a few months old.  Lemme see, this all happened on 11 SEP.  Where have I heard that date before?  Hmmmm, I can't quite place it, let's blame the flick.

Had to be denied?  Look, you guys keep saying you fault Obama but the faults you guys keep pointing to are pretty much on the level of his tie not matching his socks.  The dude effed up here and should have played it straight rather than pass some horsesh*+ off in the hopes that a few news cycles would pass before the rest of the story broke.  He lied, trying to cover his a$$ in an election run up right after chest thumping that he got Osama.  Having lied, and been caught lying, poking him on it is fair game, most especially during an election.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

The Link and Purpose Seems Undeniable, Released on Islamist...

(#292970)

..television in Egypt on September 9, giving mobs time to plan and gather, for September 11...but the Riots in Egypt broke out before the attack in Libya.

 

On September 9, 2012, an excerpt of the YouTube video was broadcast on Al-Nas TV, an Egyptian Islamist television station.

 

So Islamist for sure, but why give this victory to al Qaeda? Why mention this name at all since this would empower the Name even further?

 

This seems pretty straight forward to me. Giving this Victory to al Qaeda only makes the brand stronger? You don't think this is so? Why would this not be so and be so seen across the Arab world?

 

According to the U.S. State Department, at 10:00 p.m. CAT, the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi was attacked by gunmen, who in minutes gained entry into the compound. A Libyan security guard who was wounded in the attack said in an interview that the area was quiet "until about 9:35 pm, when as many as 125 armed men descended on the compound from all directions."[28

 

I must note a few things, the Cairo Riots had been going on for hours, and most importantly, the only people that so far have attributed this AQ are the Libyans.

 

Mohammed Magarief, president of Libya's new interim assembly, said that the suspects were connected to al-Qaeda and that the attack was planned by foreigners who had entered the country a few months earlier.[14]

 

Will you not concede that it is in the Libyans on best interest to convince America that this was al Qaeda and not home grown?

 

The only group that has claimed responsibly is the Omar Abdel-Rahman Brigades, pretty much home grown though Omar Abdel-Rahman is Egyptian.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Abdel-Rahman

 

Why should we not take them at their word?

 

Why give aide and comfort to al Qaeda?

 

Since this is, so far, the correct and True narrative...why isn't it Treason to burnish the name of al Qaeda?

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

 

 

,

Further, People of Good Sense Deride Romney...(See Mom)

(#292971)

 

.Romney did not identify Doherty by name, but his campaign later confirmed that Romney was referring to Doherty, 42, who lived in Encinitas, California. Romney said the death of Doherty, who was working as a security contractor in Benghazi, was an example of America's leadership role in the world and why it must be maintained."[53][54][55] Soon after, Doherty's mother Barbara requested that the Romney campaign stop making mention of her son for political reasons saying "I don't trust Romney. He shouldn't make my son's death part of his political agenda," she told WHDH. "It's wrong to use these brave young men, who wanted freedom for all, to degrade Obama.”

 

But there is even a larger problem here. Romney says:

 

Doherty, who was working as a security contractor in Benghazi, was an example of America's leadership role in the world and why it must be maintained."[

 

 

Say What!?!

 

I am sorry Doherty is dead, but to say that Security Contractors are an example of American leadership...

 

...is just plain foolish.

 

I don't want America to be known for its Security Contractors abroad.

 

Sorry...I prefer better role models.

 

Traveller

 

Wow

(#293017)
Bird Dog's picture

So criticizing the president when his administration effs up is treason? When Bush defenders said stuff like that during the Bush years, the outrage from the Left was loud and palpable. I guess the phrase "dissent is patriotic" expired on January 20, 2009.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particula

Not treason

(#293018)

But trying to score points against the administration from this event for domestic political consumption in the midst of a contentious election?

 

Not nice. But sadly standard fare for Republicans, apparently.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

BD, stop being negative. There's a silver lining here.

(#293022)

It's only been an almost complete term in office and we're seeing something that Democrats aren't blaming Bush for.  Baby steps man, baby steps.  Praise the progress.   I'm half in favor of Obama winning just to see how long it takes before a Dem finally says "Aww fuggit, ok this one is Obama's fault"  The problem is I think it's likely that he'd finish his second term without that happening.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

I Will Give the Same Question to You...I'm Not Defending Obama

(#293024)

...I'm defending reality.

 

After weeks of being held out, the FBI has finally been able to enter the city and begin its investigation.

 

It is like you you want immediate answers...and assignment of blame on September 12.. Is this the way real life is? Is this any attitude for finding the truth?

 

I continue to maintain that neither you nor BD are willing to deal with the presented facts. Why was the compound so large...defense in depth? But certainly also gave the attackers room to maneuver. This was a military problem. Was Stevens the best person to make this assessment?

 

Do we have the ability to protect as you seem to wish all of our Consulates and Embassies across the world? The attack was unprecedented in armament and combatants. Will you also deal with this? Consider also that spontaneously real and terrible riots were occurring in Egypt and presented strategically a much more important crisis than Libya, even on September 12. Duh, and double duh.

 

What do we do with the international standard norm that says the host country provide primary security? Would host countries even give visas to larger US contingents considering the terrible reputation of our hired contractors?

 

These are real issues.

 

I expect in fair debate that you provide an answer to them.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

 

 

 

 

I Need to Further Add...Security Was Actually Very Good...

(#293026)

 

...yes, we apparently pretty quickly lost the outside perimeter battle, I am reasonably certain with inside help, but the retreat to the safe room WAS successful...as was Stevens and his security guards.

 

Unit the attackers hit on the bight idea of...if we can't take the security room by direct attack, let us try to burn them out.

 

Which was indeed successful...and the cause of these deaths, directly, trying to get out the window, or indirectly, by smoke inhalation.

 

Pretty smart...why don't we ever give our enemies credit for being smart and, more importantly, resourceful?

 

I have a security suggestion...breathing apparatus with be issued to all Consulates and Embassies with a safe room.

 

This is what I mean by smart conversation.

 

Traveller

 

 

No, you are defending Obama.

(#293027)

I'm willing to deal with all the facts.  Heck, I give the guy a mulligan on the attacks themselves.  It's the aftermath with placing the blame on a video when BO and his guys knew there was more going on than a reaction to a video that had been on the internet since early summer. 

I get it, you guys have canonized BO and you're not going to poke him too hard during an election run up.  I understand why you dems wouldn't poke him at all.  But g*dd*mn, you're calling his opponent treasonous for using election leverage to force some small sliver of accountability. 

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

I'm Calling You on the Facts Again...Video Was First Broadcast

(#293029)

 

..on September 9, 2012. In Egypt on an Islamist TV Station.

 

It is true that it was on the internet prior but no one seemed to care until it was brought to the Attention of the Islamic world...and admittedly this was kept in Al Zarahi's back pocket for September 11.

 

However, you seem to be having a convenient memory loss of exactly what was going on in response to Innocence of Muslims:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_Innocence_of_Muslims

 

The initial Statement by the Administration was withdrawn on September 13.

 

I suggest that you are still not dealing with my honest questions on how this should of been handled differently except in retrospect.

 

Lots was going on and had to be dealt with...Lybia was important but secondary to ongoing concerns.

 

You could not have done better under these facts.

 

Just sayin`

 

Admit it.

 

Traveller

 

 

 

Cairo Riots Start at 5:00 PM, On US Embassy (!) 10:00PM Benghazi

(#293032)

...why would any rational person in charge of anything NOT think that the two were associated?

 

At least initially.

 

Which brings me back to my 1st point, even if we knew on September 12, had proof positive that this was a al Qaeda attack...Why would we publicize it? This really a war of words, we need to embarrass al Qaeda, show the to be ineffective if possible, humiliate them...

 

If you want a real Obama failure, What is Ayman al-Zawahiri still doing alive? Why can't we find him?

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

Being so precious about it all

(#293057)

seems like a big propaganda loss. Amercia, hard hitter but a glass chin.You should be celebrating their bravery and refusal to be taken. If you will have an empire you will need men who would die for it. Diplomats and adminstrators as as well as soldiers. People who will get in amongst the workings of your vassal states and know them, not people who will only travel in an armoured convoy.

 

Huh

(#293016)
Bird Dog's picture

I have no idea how you could come up with such a question, or how you could interpret my comment that way.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particula

So, BD Could You Explain to Me with a Decent Time Line and...

(#293021)

 

...and taking into account the proclivities of the parties, (Stevens and his independence  and the Islamists and their looking for an opening because our drone strikes and killing their leader), how this was a F up by the Administration except in some perfect full of foresight world that you get to choose for unknown reasons to impose on the rest of us?

 

The group later released a video of what it said was its detonation of an explosive device outside the gates of the U.S. consulate on June 5, which caused no casualties reported but damaged the consulate's perimeter wall.[6][7] The Brigades claimed that the attack was in response to the killing of Abu Yahya al Libi, a Libyan al-Qaeda leader who had just died in an American drone attack, and was also timed to coincide with the imminent arrival of a U.S. diplomat.[8][9] There were no injuries, but the group left behind leaflets promising more attacks against the U.S

 

I will also now point you to the most recent account, which of course wasn't completely known Sept 12. I am sure that with your perchance you will find this critical of the State Department....realilty is more nuanced and complex I believe.

 

What stands out to me is that the compound was 100m x 300m in size...what the hell? It would take at least a full Marine company to protect something this size...this seems odd and self evidently true now...then, probably no so much.

 

This is how hindsight works...I will note that you have not answered my criticism that casting the debate as it is being done, gives al Quaeda a tremendous shot in the arm...even recruitment wise.

 

You can shout like your ugly avatar, and that's your choice, but I don't think you have a rational explanation better than the one I have given.

 

Here is the new report LTC Woods:

"Fighting between militias was still common when I departed. Some militias appeared to be disintegrating into organisations resembling freelance criminal operations.

"Targeted attacks against westerners were on the increase."

He said that in June there had been a direct threat made against the ambassador on Facebook, mentioning that he liked to jog regularly.

State department officials defended themselves during the hearing from accusations that they had been unprepared.

"We had the correct number of assets in Benghazi at the time of 9/11," said Charlene Lamb, the deputy secretary of state for diplomatic security.

She noted there had been five diplomatic security agents in Benghazi at the time of the attack, as well as extra security staff.

 

 

 

Here is the new very detailed Yahoo News Report:

 

http://news.yahoo.com/state-dept-reveals-details-benghazi-attack-0629001...

 

I think you're just making noise.

 

Traveller

Done that

(#293025)
Bird Dog's picture

Here, then here, with regard to timing. Also, there's a detailed State Department briefing on the events here. Also, it was clear from intelligence sources within hours that this was a militant Islamist attack.

Romney overstepped with his initial responses, and I won't dispute that he made a political response for political advantage. Nevertheless, his criticisms were valid, and ever more so in light of Obama's mishandling the aftermath. Obama has been far worse than Romney in this, first with the false and misleading claim that security was "robust" when it was actually worse, despite prior attacks and warnings of future attacks, and second by lying to the American people that this was a spontaneous reaction to a video.

The White House, especially Carney and Rice, has been duplicitous and dishonest with regard to Benghazi. Because of this, I'm saying that the White House blatantly politicized Benghazi with its obfuscations and falsehoods, and then further politicized by charging that the other side is politicizing, led by that hyperpartisan bitch Cutter.

As for giving al Qaeda a "shot in the arm", I say that's a load of rubbish. What good does it do to pretend that al Qaeda didn't execute an attack when they actually did? Especially when it's patently obvious that al Qaeda did it? Is this an example of lying for the Greater Good? I don't buy that whatsoever. The truth will out, I say. Also, there's that old saw from Watergate: the cover up is worse than the crime. Right now, Obama has been trying to cover this up and you knee-jerk lefties are defending this. Frankly, I find that detestable.

If you think that's just making noise, whatever bub. Go ahead and apologize for lies and dishonesty.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particula

I Appreciate Your Response, BD, But See My Cairo Timing Above

(#293034)

 

...you have not responded to my questions in any detailed fashion.

 

Yes there was an attack on June 6, responsibility was taken by the Brigades, not al Qaeda.

 

We are in September now, a long time, with the broadcast of Innocence of Muslims on September 9, yes there was forewarning and Stevens went to ground.

 

Should we have pulled him out? We want a piece of the Libyan Oil Leases, remember...and what kind of message will that send if he runs?

 

Where do we get added security? Will the Libyans issue the necessary visas?

 

I think you are just giving me your previous talking points, (Marching Orders?) and not an insightful analysis of what happened.

 

Just sayin`

 

Noise.

 

What would You do differently, how? There are restrictions on you you know.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

 

 

 

 

Cairo was irrelevant to Benghazi

(#293066)
Bird Dog's picture

There were no protests in Benghazi, let alone for a video. Your own link from the State Department confirms that. In fact, that link worsens the case for your disproven theory that this was about a YouTube.

This was a direct attack on U.S. soil on September 11th, the anniversary of when al Qaeda had its most successful attack. The facts, as you believe you're in favor of, point to a premeditated attack by over a hundred militant Islamists.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particula

Hindsight doesn't need corrective eyewear. -nt-

(#293067)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

That makes no sense

(#293071)
Bird Dog's picture

Almost immediately afterward, the administration went on record that the attacks  were caused by a video, without a shred a evidence in support of that contention, and they expressly denied that this was militant Islamism or caused by al Qaeda. But the evidence was overwhelming, within hours after the attacks, that this was a planned, premeditated strike. Despite knowing that this was a terrorist attack, Obama sent out Jay Carney and Susan Rice to lie to the American people, and I do not use the term "lie" lightly. Biden only made it worse by continuing the deception and dishonesty.

They could--and should--have said that they were investigating the attacks and couldn't come to a definitive conclusion (which would have had the benefit of being plausible), but they didn't. IMO, because Obama didn't want to look like a milquetoast liberal, and because Obama stated that the defeat of al Qaeda was within reach, and because he was responsible for helping overthrow a regime that caused a power vacuum in Libya (which in turn helped grow militant Islamism), the president politicized what took place by choosing deception and dishonesty. This is the kind of lie that should disqualify him from office.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particula

You're right. The President should have corrected the record

(#293072)

to make sure al Qaeda gets all the credit they deserve. It's a shame that protests in Egypt and elsewhere diverted attention from al Qaeda's little 9/11 anniversary celebration, and it's the President's job to make sure everyone understands their message.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Ah

(#293073)
Bird Dog's picture

So what you're saying is that it's okay to lie to the American people when al Qaeda attacks an American target. I get it. The ends justify the means, and if that involves lying and defending lies because it serves the Greater Liberal Good, then so be it. Sorry, Jordan, I'm not on board with that, and will be never be.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particula

First, It Was NOT an al Qaeda Opperation...Geeze Louise!

(#293075)

...to the best of our knowledge, at this moment and subject to change, it was:

 

Ansar al-Sharia and Omar Abdul Rahman Brigades

 

I know these are difficult to pronounce...but we need to work at this stuff.

 

Traveller

Hey Trav!

(#293076)

Just wanted to say thanks for shedding so much light on a topic around which there is too much noise.

 

Or heat. Around which there is too much heat.

 

Hot noise? Loud heat?

 

Whatever.

 

Thanks!

Same difference

(#293110)
Bird Dog's picture

Please try to keep up. They are allied with al Qaeda and ideologically homogeneous.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particula

Extremist Islamic groups may share ideologies

(#293115)
mmghosh's picture

but an "al-Qaeda affiliated" organisation should have an identifiable structure, or follow some identifiable methodology.  

 

Definitions must mean something specific.  Otherwise we could, for example, claim that the Mumbai attacks in 2009 was an al-Qaeda plot, simply because Islamic extremists were involved.

no cathedral can be built if no community desires one

BD doesn't read his own links

(#293130)

The rise of these Ansar al-Sharia groups points to an end of al Qaeda's unipolar global jihad of the past decade and a return to a multipolar jihadosphere, similar to the 1990s.

And...

Distinguishing between these differing groups is crucial for better understanding the new landscape of the Middle East and North Africa, as well as the trajectory of new salafi-jihadi groups that are not necessarily beholden to al Qaeda's strategies or tactics. Although there are no known formal or operational links between these disparate organizations, it is possible they may try to link up in the future based on ideological affinity and similar end goals. For now, though, conflating them would be premature.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Wagster doesn't read BD's comments

(#293138)
Bird Dog's picture

One, I said that they are allied with al Qaeda, which is true. 

Two, I said that they ideologically homogeneous with al Qaeda, which is a direct quote from the FP piece. Yes, they use different tactics and have different strategies.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particula

And conflating them would be premature

(#293142)

Also, can you be allies without operational links? Everybody wants the Yankees to lose, but does that mean that every baseball team is in alliance?

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Conflating?

(#293429)
Bird Dog's picture

The Ansars are basically a rebranding. It's the same detergent, with a few blue crystals mixed in, packaged in a different-colored different box. For Libya, there's a 54-page report on the subject. 

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particula

Since the administration changed its story already,

(#293077)

based on confirmed information, your complaints amount to whining about timing, and sound absurdly nitpicky. I understand how important it is to score points against the administration, but seeing as Romney already burned his fingers something awful by rushing out with untimely criticism, you'd think people would get the message and move on.

 

That the misunderstanding hurt the attacker's agenda is just gravy.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Nope, that's not it

(#293111)
Bird Dog's picture

The Obama administration deliberately misled the American people. They only changed their story when the evidence was incontrovertible.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particula

They only changed their story when the evidence was

(#293118)

more reliable. Which is exactly what they should do. Your spin on this story is lame.

M Aurelius was probably right.

No, they didn't

(#293128)
Bird Dog's picture

They knew within hours that this was a terrorist attack. Also, the claim that security was "robust" was shown to be false. Hillary took one for the team on security, but the buck stops you know where.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particula

I don't understand politics

(#292728)

Just in case anyone was wondering. 

 

I predicted a Romney win b/c of a weak economy. 

 

Now Romney's racing toward a lead in the polls (or he's already there) while foreclosures are at a 5 yr. low and weekly unemployment claims are at a 4 yr. low (the 4 week moving average is at March levels, when over 200K jobs were created).

 

Memo to self: It's not solely the economy, stupid.

 

Also, we're currently witnessing homo economicus's failure as a model of human behavior.

 

Also, this sucks!! Is Obama gonna get his butt handed to him in the other debates too?

 

And HankP, for God's sake, what happened to your assurances that Romney was a bad politician and poor debater??! You lulled many of us into a false sense of security and I speak for many when I say that we're all lashing out at you in our hearts if not in our comments.

I think the Big O

(#292730)

was told that it was in the bag so play it safe. Expect tactics to change. 

 

Homo economicus has always been a terrible model re predictive behaviour. Look at their famous "Problem of sex". Was it Hobbeist who wrote here "The urge to be the means to someone elses ends is an acient one." Indeed.

 

This is a sentence at the end of my comment that does not convey any additional information.

"the Big O was told that it was in the bag"

(#292733)

and who told him that, huh Hank?

Homo Economicus _is_ a terrible model of human behavior....

(#293014)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

...just a better one than what your average progressive operates with. :^) And you and catch are misapplying it in this case.  Nobody votes on the basis of a 7.8 (or 7.7, or 7.9) UE reading.  They vote based on their personal condition and prospects, the perceived connection between said circumstances and whatever they're voting on, and to a lesser extent on similar-group affiliation (since what is happening to group X is germane to your own possibilities if you are part of X, the linkage being tighter as the group gets smaller.)

 

Bernard "An Army Of One...Okay, Six Or Seven, Tops" Guerrero

WTF are you talking about?

(#292732)
HankP's picture

I'm the one who kept disagreeing with everyone saying that "Romney is toast" and "the election is over". I said it was unlikely but that events happen that can affect the race.

 

It sounds more like you only hear what you want to hear. Obama wasn't guaranteed a win before and Romney isn't guaranteed a win now.

I blame it all on the Internet

You said he was a bad debater!

(#292734)

There was no plausible way for Romney to overcome a 5 pt. deficit in the polls except with an excellent debate performance!

 

You really messed with my head here, man, and I'd like you to acknowledge that. Or so help me I'm going back into the woods.

He's still a bad debater

(#292736)

when you include concepts such as truthfullness, honesty and veracity into the scoring system.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

He's not a bad debater; just a bad liar.

(#292772)

Unfortunately, the mushy middle of the electorate seems to care more about style than about little things like honesty, or a rational, workable policy. Of course we all knew that: they followed the bright shiny object right into flensing machine that was Iraq.

M Aurelius was probably right.

No, he's a very good liar

(#292774)
HankP's picture

he appears sincere and sensitive to the ignorant. That's the mark of a great liar.

 

I blame it all on the Internet

No, he's a bad liar.

(#292776)

You're able to spot the lie before he shakes your hand and leaves the room.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Maybe you can

(#292781)
HankP's picture

apparently that's not the common view.

I blame it all on the Internet

He's not a good debater

(#292746)

It's just that Obama isn't either, and he performed at the lowest end of his scale.

 

Clinton would have absolutely shredded Romney while mentally reviewing his golf swing just to avoid boredom.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

I'm not responsible for your head

(#292748)
HankP's picture

if you want to lash out at someone, try aiming at all the people here who said that Romney was toast rather than the person who kept telling them that the election wasn't over yet.

I blame it all on the Internet

I'll pull a Romney and just join your side

(#292751)

I was actually counting Romney's chances as slimmer b/c of your reports on the GOP primaries (which I didn't watch), but I hope the fact that he's near even or ahead of Obama less than 1 month before the election will stop people, finally, from talking about the GOP as a small, essentially southern regional party. 

 

It's just not true.

Romney's not racing towards anything

(#292741)

his best polling days are about to fall off the 7-day trackers.  I've mentioned on another thread that momentum in the general is an illusion.  Once the polling results catch up with the events, the next change is as likely to go in the other direction.  Not to say that Romney won't keep gaining, but if he does it won't be because he gained this past week.  It's actually better to be "bleeding support" but still ahead than it is to be making up a deficit.

 

Right now the tipping-point state is OH (surprise) on fivethirtyeight, where Obama's composite lead is 1.9%.  This gets him 271 EVs and includes NV and WI but not CO, FL, IA, VA or NC.  Who knows if and how Romney can make up those two points, but the undecideds are down to 5-7% of polls now.  To net two points Romney will need to either peel of Obama's supporters who have stayed loyal to him through the first debate, or win two thirds of undecideds.  Which candidate would you rather be?

Thanks, corph

(#292743)

That's somewhat comforting, but even if Obama has a slight advantage, I wasn't worried at all about the election 8 days ago and now it's a genuine worry. 

 

Obama blew a major advantage and it's stressful. Those facts are undeniable. 

 

Lashing out/blaming people for my emotional experiences is a very legitimate coping strategy.

 

I'm not saying you should attempt it yourself immediately, Im saying you should consider it and then try it.

Heh

(#292755)

I would, but I'm already rhetorically investing in calming peoples' fears (especially my Ohio Schoolteacher Ex's).  I already badly underestimated the debate reaction and Romney's bounce.  I did notice that the swing state polling averages are currently heavy with right-leaners like Raz and Gravis (who according to a dKos poster may be outed as another data fabricator).

 

Remember that McCain was actually projected to wind the electoral college for about a week in early September 2008?  He was doing better than Romney has all year.  Even after the stock market collapse, he gained a few points back towards the end as Republicans came home.  I'm pretty sure Rs just stampeded home this week as soon as their nominee showed any sign of life at all.

 

What sucks is that barring a sudden reversal, there's almost no chance of Dems retaking the House now.  More unnecessary debt ceiling staredowns, crappy compromises and abortion bills.  2016 will go to whoever does a better job of blaming the other party for nothing getting done.

IIjm, or is Martha Raddatz

(#292775)
Jay C's picture

making Jim Lehrer look incredibly good as a debate moderator?

Biden is kicking Ryan's butt up and down the stage.

(#292777)

That's mostly what I'm noticing.

M Aurelius was probably right.

What you said...

(#292779)
Jay C's picture

Makes me think the ticket might have well have been reversed (for the debates, anyway)

Given That Your Analysis Of The Last One Was. . .

(#292789)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . ."this is a boring wonkfest," I think I'll wait for the post-debate analysis.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Given that my analysis was "Obama sucks at debating"

(#292795)

maybe you simply ought to read more carefully.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Stating the lie as a question

(#292780)
HankP's picture

that SS and Medicare are going bankrupt lost her any credibility she may have had.

I blame it all on the Internet

My theory on the poor Obama

(#292782)

My theory on the poor Obama debate performance:

 

He was distracted by Lehrer's cold, dead eyes.

Romney, on the other hand, recognized that a fellow pod-person was moderating and the resulting confidence helped him win the day.

Sadly, It's Not A Rumor

(#292798)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Michael Vick is once again a dog owner. Vick deserves whatever (nonviolent) backlash he suffers from this, and the trial judge on his case should be ashamed for not constructing the sentence in a way to make this impossible (say, by extending the prison sentence by several years (but still within the allowable limits) but suspending the extra time indefinitely on the condition that he never own a dog again).

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Catchy Bait: IMF Edition

(#292842)

Kevin Drum and Krugman both wrote yesterday about the IMF's finding that Euro austerity programs were tanking economies. Simply put: the more austerity in a given country, the worse the economic outcomes.

 

A common dodge is to suggest that maybe it's because those countries were in worse economic shape to begin with. In other words, austerity didn't cause the dire circumstances in Greece, it was the crappy Greek economic fundamentals what did it.

 

Not so fast, IMF thought of that too. So what they're doing is comparing economic forecasts from each country, since those forecasts take economic fundamentals for each country into account when they are made. And so guess what. Austerity countries perform worse than predicted, and their their non-austerity counterparts perform better than predicted, across the board. By a lot.

 

 

Oops. Policymakers already know which countries are in more economic trouble, and take that into account when making economic predictions. Even so, those forecasts are more wrong in countries with austerity programs than in countries without. 

We find the coefficient on planned fiscal consolidation to be large, negative, and significant....Overall, depending on the forecast source and the specification, our estimation results for the unexpected output loss associated with a 1 percent of GDP fiscal consolidation are in the range of 0.4 to 1.2 percentage points.

The economic experts, many the same as those demanding austerity, all seem to have stepped on their d*cks & drastically underestimated the negative economic effects of austerity. They implemented austerity expecting austerity to produce growth, and instead austerity programs appear to produce a greater than 1:1 reduction in economic output. There's a multiplier all right: it's frickin negative. Why, it's almost as though all of these economic experts are in the grip of an economic theory which is utterly invalid.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Those IMF figures

(#292843)
Jay C's picture

AFAICT - and admittedly, I'm just some guy out here logged into just some blog, not a Very Serious Economist or anything - the data behind the figures on this chart merely confirm everything I've thought about the fundamentals of the differing economic policies of our two Major Parties:

which Professor Krugman sums up quite neatly as: "...the Obama Administration has been wrong about some things ... But Republicans have been wrong about everything".

 

Put simply, the economic "plans" the GOP have been, and still are, pushing as the "cure" for the country's economic problems are basically the same sort of "austerity" programs many European governments have enacted - and which have seriously inhibited their recovery: especially compared to the US. Which, even if we aren't doing fantastically, are still doing better than a lot of other "advanced" economies.

 

Why the Obama campaign hasn't been pushing this line more is a mystery to me.

I'd make 2 points in reply.

(#292846)

1. Don't hang too much on that chart. The measures are a little soft (generalised forecasts of performance etc), the "things" being measured very different (Greece is not very like Sweden in lots of respects). Looking at the graph, a lot hangs on a small number of outliers. Take Gre, Rom and Swe out, for example, and the picture is a lot less clear. Also, this is a snapshot in time. Who says that in 5 years austerity will not have had a positive effect as revitalised, debt free economies outperform the stimulated debt loaded ones?

 

2. I don't think many people outside the US have been pushing austerity as the road to growth. Everyone I know in Europe sees it as a way to pay debts down. A mathematical neccessity once you take default off of the table. The argument is not between stimulous and austerity, it is between default and austerity. That, espcially for a EUR economy, is a much harder decision to make.

 

Note: I don't hold a torch for austerity or austerity policies. I just think the picture is not a clear cut as some would like. There is real politik to be considered as well as the possibility that a nation might benefit from some austerity and some stimulous if these are targetted correctly.

 

Finally, I think it's also possible to be in a bad place where neither austerity nor stimulous will help in the medium term.

Couple replies to your replies.

(#292849)

1) The people pushing austerity have been saying that austerity measures - paying down debts, firing state employees & so improving the state's books - will in fact have *positive* multipliers for economic growth. Despite the noise in the graph, none of the relevant economies are showing anything like a positive multiplier. That is a strong indication that "pro-growth austerity" is a horseload.

 

2) I'd be interested in seeing how well austerity is doing in terms of bringing debts down. I mean, if the principle aim of austerity is to pull nations back from bankrupt status...how's it working so far? Are debt levels going down? Are deficits smoothing out? If as the chart indicates that austerity cuts tend to produce a 1:1 or better reduction in GDP, how's that impacting budget forecasts?

 

How much longer does it take to pay debts down when you're simultaneously tanking the economy? I'd love to see some figures on that, but haven't a clue where to look.

M Aurelius was probably right.

As I said

(#292851)

I think your point 1 is a US phenomenon.

 

On point 2, you are right. Collapsing the economy is not neccessarily the best way to make your debts more affordable. I think Greece is seeing this. But we are talking desperate measures for desperate times. They are fighting to have enough money to keep the lights on one creditor meeting to the next. They've just squeeked in under the required budget cuts to secure their next round of funding (if you believe their numbers). That funding pays their creditors and the remaining civil servants. Those required budget cuts are set by their creditors not by them. They either implement them or default unilateraly with all that entails.

 

To a lesser degree the same is true of Ireland. They allowed themselves to be bullied into taking a bailout and the conditions attached - spending targets.

 

By the way, note that Ireland is on the 0 line yet is often held up by pro stimulous people as a posterchild.

 

The Spanish are fighting this pressure now, but having nationalised their banks debts I'm not sure they will have much choice.

But, nj....

(#292856)
Jay C's picture

[Insert obligatory IANAE disclaimer HERE]

 

...is Greece (and to a lesser degree, Spain) really the best "poster child" for "austerity" arguments - pro or con ?  The issues with the Greek economy, while obvious enough in a lot of ways, seem to have been aggravated by that country's -umm, shall we say, "idiosyncratic" - culture wrt economic matters. And it is also, somewhat like Ireland, a "peripheral" member of the EU, both economically and geographically.

 

I think the UK, a much larger and more-diverse economy which, if I recall the figures correctly, has seen not just slower growth, but an actual contraction after recent "austerity" programs is a better example. Pro-stimulus, as I see it but YMMV....

IANAEE

(#292877)

You're kind of making my point for me. Take Greece off the chart because they're a special case. You can take Romania out too since they're a basket case of the same order. You guys want to take Ireland out too since they're a special case with a two track economy. 

 

All of this is just shuffling the deck chairs about and choosing the tune the band should play. Greece still owes what it owes. I have some friends just back from Athens and it's the apocalypse there relatively speaking. They need practical solutions not economic propaganda of either flavour. Unfortuantely there might not be any available to them.

The problem with cutting in a recession is that it makes

(#292858)

the recession worse. The problem with making a recession worse is that it can lead to a full-blown depression, crippling the economy for decades and turning the country in question into a 2nd or 3rd world nation for the foreseeable future. Greece seems to be just about there as we speak.

 

Is that kind of wholesale damage to an entire economy, double digit unemployment until 2030, GDP in the can, is all of that worth it just so a few creditors can avoid taking what appears to have been a well-deserved haircut?

M Aurelius was probably right.

They have no option.

(#292874)

As you know I am not pro the new EU and it's bully boy tactics, but they are what they are. It's cough up or get out. They're choosing to cough up. If it was me, in Irealnds case I would have shaved the bank bond holders bald before paying a cent to them. Anything else was treason. Greece was a tougher one because it was government debt and it was fraudulently aquired by cooking their books. They (the government) really do own the mess they are in.  Now that they are in it what's the best thing to do? Do you think they should stop paying their debts? It might be the best thing to do, I suspect no one really knows.

Yes, the Greek gov't was in bed making bad debts with investors

(#292880)

who were happy to get the falsely inflated big returns before the market collapsed. It is entirely a problem between the corrupt politicians and the equally corrupt investors who bought into the scam. Making ordinary Greeks cough up the difference is a fricking nationwide mugging. I'm pretty sure they at least are fully aware of that.

M Aurelius was probably right.

"Ireland is on the 0 line yet is often held up by pro stimulous

(#292862)

people as a posterchild."

 

Not sure what you mean, but Ireland is held up as an example of the bad effects of austerity.

 

While it isn't quite a paradigm bad case, unemployment has been stuck at circa 15% for nearly 3 yrs. My understanding is the domestic economy has, basically, been consistently stuck in this depressed state since austerity's inception more than 3 yrs. ago.

 

Decent GDP #s, when I've read them, are in large part due to increased outputs from multinationals centered in Ireland, which are included in its GDP measures.

 

I don't think Ireland is exactly a simple case for either side, but I don't think it's a point against the neo-Keynesians.

As I mentioned earlier

(#292872)

Irelands multinational sector was threatened by uncompetitivity in costs and wages. Less so now. I would say it is a point against them. 

Reply

(#292861)

1) forecasts aren't that soft. specific #s for specific times matched to the actual #s. It's useful data, and certainly accords with my experience of austerity's negative effects being systematically under-erestimated. 

 

"Who says that in 5 years austerity will not have had a positive effect as revitalised, debt free economies outperform the stimulated debt loaded ones?"

 

Austerity is reducing debt? even for those countries who've been pursuing it for years, austerity in most cases hasn't significantly reduced deficits.

 

Re: a 5 yr. time-frame, austerity is a good 3-4 yrs. old now. You're suggesting pursuing the potentially wrong economic policy, which produces recessions and increases unemployment for 8-9 years across many countries, before considering turning course? That's an unacceptable approach.   

 

2) I don't think many people outside the US have been pushing austerity as the road to growth. 

 

That's wrong. expansionary austerity has been popular on both sides of the atlantic.

 

The most standard story is that deficit reduction = increasing confidence. The story says austerity means borrowing costs will go down for governments and businesses will have the confidence to invest. Cameron ran on it. ECB officials state it. It's widespread.

 

A less standard story is that the public sector is inefficient compared to the private sector so cuts to the former will allow the latter to grow and overall increase growth. That's a UK story in particular. 

 

I can tell a competing story that makes austerity look bad - it makes for negative feedback loops in fragile economies that then sink into recession/very low growth such that it's bad policy in both the short and long term.

 

Since arguing over stories isn't going to settle this, we probably better look at what the data suggests, which is what the IMF is doing, and I think you'll have to admit that a fair read of it points against austerity. 

Not saying they're not useful,

(#292871)

but they're not hard data and I would bet heiffers to horse manure that they are an order of magnitude less accurate right before a step change in the actual data they are trying to predict. Generally that is the case with forecasting - excellent at predicting the continued progression of a trend, not so good at predicting or quantifying a step change or an inflection. I guess the engineer in me would like to see some error bars on that data. Or put another way, just because people predicted growth just before austerity doesn't mean that growth was actually in the wings.

 

But let's not hang too much onto that argument - I agree that cutting, especially tha massive layoffs in the public sector, will hit economic activity and do so pretty hard.

 

Austerity doesn't reduce debt? That's been the whole point of the vicious austerity in the EU. We certainately haven't been doing it to stimulate the economy. In Ireland for example, outside of construction and housing, the economy was doing just fine. The UK might be a different story.

 

A less standard story is that the public sector is inefficient compared to the private sector so cuts to the former will allow the latter to grow and overall increase growth. That's a UK story in particular.

 

Well, there''s a little bit of truth to that. As you mention Ireland has a dynamic international corporate sector. The failing domestic economy has been a boon to that sector. A  massive boon I would expect.

 

But your negative feedback loops story is also true. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just saying that economies are complex systems and that countries that are about to be cut off by their creditors and face soaring bond prices have little option but to cut spending drastically.

Paying Debts Down

(#292870)

There is a problem with the notion that you should use fiscal austerity to pay debts down.

 

The problem is that it doesn't work, yet it is intuitively attractive. The reason is that a national government is exactly not like a family or a corporation, or an NGO. If your family has excess debt, you need to pay it down as soon as you can. We can define excess debt as debt that is increasing faster than your earnings by virtue of debt service costs. That is, debt that will put you in a deeper hole the longer you wait to pay it.

 

As an individual, then, you would adopt austerity measures. You won't eat out, you'll keep the car longer, buy cheaper cat food, move to a cheaper home, etc. But none of these actions will have a negative impact on your income!

 

If you are a national government, it doesn't work that way, because your budget is responsible for a significant share of national economic activity. If you cut it, economic activity falls automatically by that amount, and over time by a larger amount due to the multiplier effect. Companies seeing a budget cut will know to invest less in plant and equipment, for example.

 

If the economic activity falls, your revenue falls, and you've made no progress making your debt load smaller. In fact, you are in a death spiral. This is the case not of just Greece, which we all agree is a badly managed country, but in Spain, which had a low deficit before the crisis hit.

 

There is another problem, which is that bond markets also react to a shrinking economy by demanding fewer bonds for that country. So interest rates go up and debt service cost, which is more important than the quantity of debt, goes up sharply. Spain has also painted itself into this corner, and has to pay three times the rate of Germany just to roll over its short-term paper, adding to the deficit.

 

Budget cuts have not led to "confidence" by investors leading to lower rates. This is why Krugman calls the confidence rationale the "confidence fairy". It simply does not exist.

 

So drastic cuts don't prevent default at all. All you are doing is hurting the people least able to respond, like retirees and the unemployed, in exchange for nothing at all.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Of course there's a benefit, MA.

(#292875)

The bondholders and lenders get money back on their bad investments without taking too much of a haircut. See? Major benefit.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Will the death of a maiden lead to real change?

(#292903)
mmghosh's picture

One hopes, but doubts remain.

 

http://dawn.com/2012/10/12/moment-of-truth/

For once, and at long last, Pakistanis appear to have woken up to the consequences of the extremism that has been allowed to take root in our country. The reaction to the attack on Malala Yousufzai is significant not just because of its scale and outrage, but because it is marked by something that is depressingly rare — across-the-board condemnation of the Taliban.

 

A handful of voices, even in parliament, have tried to link the incident to America’s role in Pakistan or implied that it was Malala’s own fault. Refreshingly, though, these have been drowned out by an outpouring of anger reflected in the strongly worded condemnation of the attackers in the National Assembly and Senate, the army chief’s resolve against the “twisted ideology” of the perpetrators, extensive media coverage, and civil society efforts from protest rallies to prayers for Malala in schools.

 

For once, the focus is on the threat to Pakistan from the intolerance in its own society, not on devising conspiracy theories, blaming foreign powers or coming up with justifications for terrorist acts.

no cathedral can be built if no community desires one

New York Times Headline From 46 Minutes Ago

(#292904)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Taliban Reiterate Vow to Kill Pakistani Girl

Not to repeat myself, but regarding the Taliban? I'm all for the Admiral Halsey plan.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

But Halsey's plan didn't come true.

(#292923)

In fact Japan and Japanese culture became one of the linchpins in Cold War efforts to resist communism in Asiatic countries.

 

Incidentally, if you ever happen to be in Fredericksburg, TX, go ahead and shell out the $14 to tour the Nimitz Museum of the Pacific War. I was completely blown away by the size and scope of the place...in fact my dad, uncle, brother and I found ourselves having to leave before finishing the tour. It's pretty much like walking through a Ken Burns diorama of the entire Pacific war, and it's overwhelming. But cool. Also, you're in the Texas hill country, and I hope you have time to do some swimming, boating, fishing, beer drinking and barbecue sampling.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Yes, Because Japan Ultimately Came Around. . .

(#292924)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .and became a better society, which genuinely pleases me. I have no problem with the survival of anyone who swears to Allah to disavow the Taliban and all of its works (though those who have committed crimes against humanity should then be thrown in prison to rot forever)--if they stick to that oath while those who don't are eradicated, that will meet Halsey's vow with regard to the Taliban.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Heh, well read your WWII history a bit more closely

(#292942)

sorry for the patronizing tone but you're asking for it, and you'll see that plenty of those who committed crimes against humanity went free to live happy, honorable lives in the brave new world of occupation Japan. Justice is a relatively rare thing.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Silly To Let The Perfect Be The Enemy Of The Good

(#292945)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Imperial Japan ceased to exist, and has not threatened the world since. If the Taliban is as thoroughly crushed, it will be a victory, though I will forever resent whatever oxygen is tainted by its continued usage by unrepentant Taliban vermin.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Manish, I'm going to say something that's probably anti-Muslim.

(#292922)

It seems to me that the greatest flaw in Muslim cultures today is the willingness to countenance horrors in the name of Islam, even when those claiming the honor of carrying out the will of Allah are acting like inhuman monsters who should be scourged from the face of the planet. Far and away the vast majority of Muslims would be horrified by the senseless murder of a teenage girl who was trying to make a political statement...and yet there seems to be room somewhere in at least the Pakistani & Afghan cultures to condone such behaviors.

 

On the other hand, I'll say that from the point of view of the Taliban who are for all intents and purposes little different from the Mafia with different scriptures, that girl is ultimately going to get their asses killed. I wouldn't mind flying overseas if it meant I could take her photograph and place it on their otherwise unmarked graves, so that she can smile, mostly out of pity, at their sorry asses in the afterlife.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Amen

(#292928)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Photobucket

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

I'm going to go all Marxist on you

(#292947)
mmghosh's picture

and point out it is the society - extreme feudalism and patriarchy - that is the more probable reason.  Compare conservative Muslim cultures in Bangladesh, Malaysia and Indonesia - even KSA and Pakistan itself where this attitude to women's education does not exist.

 

The problems stem from feudalism - a state where the top earners have no stake in civil society, leaving the lower echelons exposed to medieval attitudes on women's education.  The same views and problems existed 200 years ago in societies in the world.

Statistics tell a damning story. Only 3.2 million people (190 million population) are registered with the Federal Board of Revenue. But less than half of these file any income or wealth tax returns. Much the same is the case of over 60,000 companies registered with the Securities and Exchange Commission of Pakistan – only a third pay tax. Yet over 1.6 million frequent air travelers don’t pay income tax; half a million have multiple bank accounts at home and abroad but no National Tax Number; over 60,000 bathe in residential luxury, over 20,000 have grand cars, but none pays any tax; over 70,000 pay huge utility bills and over 13,000 have expensive guns and rifles but they all dodge the tax collector; over 25,000 flourishing doctors, lawyers and professionals have no NTNs.

---

Politics is also responsible for the second gap in the economy. There is no tax on income from agricultural production (other small taxes on property exist). This accounts for the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of rich landlords with luxurious houses, big cars, guns, who have foreign holidays, educate their kids in expensive schools, etc., who are outside the tax net. It also provides an avenue for people to invest in land and show non-taxed agricultural income as a source of their wealth. The agrarian mode of production – predominantly sharecropping – ensures low productivity and lower returns on capital invested in land than in industry. A complex web of subsidies on raw materials supplements agricultural incomes. If parliament, which is run by landlords, could be persuaded to cut subsidies across the board and allow market forces to prevail, the mode of production would be compelled to become capitalist, yielding more efficiency and enabling agricultural incomes to be taxed properly.

no cathedral can be built if no community desires one

The Greeks Appear to Support This Thesis

(#292979)

McNally's Corpus Christi?

(#292995)
mmghosh's picture

That would be considered offensive in the vast majority of the world's countries. 

no cathedral can be built if no community desires one

Heeeeeee's Baaaaaack!

(#292916)
M Scott Eiland's picture

6-0 Nationals after three innings--Bryce Harper has an RBI triple and a 415 ft solo homer already. It's a lot easier to play this game when you're not suffering from a nasty case of strep throat. *

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Sweet

(#292930)

6-3 now, though. I hope the ghosts of the Senators stay away.

They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864

6-4

(#292934)

Where is Frank Howard when you need him?

 

Apparently, still with us. One of my childhood heroes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Howard_(baseball)

 

They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864

At Least Bryce Harper Is Off The Hook

(#292936)
M Scott Eiland's picture

But if the pitching staff blows this for the Nationals, the second guessing over the Strasburg shutdown won't have even slowed down by the time next April rolls around.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Yes

(#292951)

Although I'm impressed with Storen's 96-mph sinker. 

 

They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864

*Sigh*

(#292955)
M Scott Eiland's picture

F***ing useless bullpen.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Ah, hell

(#292963)

And you're completely right.

They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864

My Criticism Was Too Narrow

(#292964)
M Scott Eiland's picture

The Nationals' staff ERA for the series was 6.00--far worse than any other NL team. Even Strasburg at his best might not have saved them with that level of ineptitude elsewhere.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

I'm not into baseball anymore

(#292957)

Now, bowling! There's a sport.

They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864

It just doesn't seem like much of a real sport anymore

(#292961)

Real sports have lockouts.

Bowling Has A More Civilized Approach

(#292962)
M Scott Eiland's picture

They just rent out all the shoes to the nearest charity circus so no one can play.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

And Yet, More Deserving Than Obama Three Years Ago

(#292917)
M Scott Eiland's picture

The Clowns In Oslo take time out from smoking crack to give the Nobel Peace Prize to those guys in Brussels. Peace in our time!

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Wait, what?

(#292919)

Are you talking about the peace prize for the EU? Your link is to a useless wikipedia entry.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Um, So?

(#292920)
M Scott Eiland's picture

It has links, reactions, and the basic facts--I'm pretty sure Google News exists if you desire more information.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Nah. If you're not going to make a point,

(#292939)

I'm not going to do the work to make it for you.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I Made An Assertion

(#292940)
M Scott Eiland's picture

It's up to you whether to believe it or not, or to seek out other sources of information.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Sorry, no. I'm not going to make bad syllogisms for you.

(#292944)

You're more than capable, I'm sure.

M Aurelius was probably right.

So, "Not"?

(#292948)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Not(ed).

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

A liberal, a moderate, and a conservative walk into a bar

(#292931)

Bartender says, "What can I get for you, Mr. Romney?"

 

They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864

In Tunisia, all it took was one guy...

(#292965)
Bird Dog's picture

...to set himself on fire and an Arab Spring was triggered. In China, the number is 45 and counting.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particula

That'll Get The Attention Of The Butchers Of Beijing

(#292967)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Makes it a lot harder to harvest the organs if they immolate themselves. If we're lucky, we'll get some useful spin-off firefighting tech out of their efforts to prevent the destruction of state property.

[Maintenance announcement: We're sorry, but the closed captioning for the sarcasm-impaired is offline due to extreme overload. We hope to have the problem resolved soon].

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Turns out

(#292981)

Lance Armstrong is a very bad man. Forget the stealing of glory and financial rewards from the people that didn't cheat... or the irreparable harm to the sport he loved. It's the intimidation of his former friends and colleagues that really turns my stomach.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

I got on the Armstrong

(#292987)

I got on the Armstrong hater's train early.  The clue that he wasn't all he was made out to be -- 

When I lived in Austin I knew a couple who, when told that Armstrong was seen in town driving a Suburban, said "no way that was Lance, he'd never drive an SUV!"  Only a charlatan could convince otherwise reasonable people that he would NEVER drive a truck because it wasn't eco enough and didn't fit his image.

I'm Still Good With Lance...

(#292988)

....dirty or not, I admire how he moved forward on this.

 

Smart decisions are smart. A nice stutter step to the left and moving forward.

 

And he has done good works, better than most any of us.

 

That counts for something.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

And drugs should be legal anyway - how is performance

(#292993)
mmghosh's picture

enhancement by taking drugs any different to performance enhancement by special diets, sports psychologists etc that can be afforded by the richer sportspeople?

no cathedral can be built if no community desires one

Complete lack of effort, for one

(#293006)

A diet requires discipline and sacrifice. A sports psychologist requires time and effort to see and deal with.

 

A pill you pop and you gain instantly a larger advantage that diet and psychologist put together.

 

What would be the point of watching a pharmaceutical competition? Nobody would care who won, really.

 

Then there are the health effects. Sports are supposed to be healthy. Armstrong gave himself cancer.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

That's Oversimplifying A Bit

(#293007)
M Scott Eiland's picture

PEDs let elite athletes work harder and get more out of whatever work they do--no one does well simply by popping pills and doing nothing else. Barry Bonds, for all his unpleasantness, ate well and worked out like a demon along with whatever he was taking. The edge isn't as substantial as you make it out to be, though at ultra-elite levels even 5% can be the difference between a gold medal and a sixth place finish (consider the men's 100 meter dash final at London this year, where seven of the eight men in the final broke the ten second mark--a tenth of a second was huge in that field, though it wouldn't have gotten Blake quite past Bolt). PEDs are bad because:

--they're agreed to be against the rules: cheating in a sport with defined rules is always bad, and should be punished when detected (though aside from forfeiture of medals and a reasonable suspension, I have no huge moral objection to those who have cheated having at least one more chance to do it fairly--most forms of baseball cheating before PEDs became an issue were relatively short);

--since most if not all PEDs have unfortunate side effects, an athlete in a sport where cheating is rampant is left with a choice between damaging his health in a way that the sport played according to the rules does not, or losing ground to his peers who do cheat (and in sports like football, being exposed to increased risk of injury due to the enhanced players being stronger and/or faster than they would be otherwise);

--of course, watching widespread cheating in a sport that one loves can cause cynicism or strong anger, which can lead to loss of interest in a sport, or a hyperbolic effort to root all cheating out of a sport at the expense of due process and the ability to enjoy the game that survives.

Just for the record, we don't know what gave Armstrong his cancer--people get cancer for all sorts of reasons without obvious risk factors (say, someone who avoided sun almost religiously over the years getting a melanoma), and we haven't heard about an epidemic of cyclists' gonads dropping off in droves (Floater will correct me if I missed that story, I suspect).

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Details are missing, obviously

(#293009)

Armstrong hasn't published detailed records of dosages and so on. But the correlation between using large quantities of testosterone and getting testicular cancer at such an early age (otherwise of low probability), is highly suggestive, to say the least.

 

A 5% advantage is huge in this level of sports.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

PED make a bigger difference in some sports than others

(#293013)

In a cycling event like the Tour de France the impact is enormous. Take a look at the recent times for the climbing stages in the Tour now that the testing has gotten much better. They're around 10% slower than they were in the late 90's to early 2000 time frame. That's in spite of considerable improvements in equipment. That's more than the difference between 1st and 5th. That's the difference between being a winner and not even being in the game.

 

The most notable health issue with cyclists using EPO was not cancer but sudden death while sleeping. You have to walk a fine line when stimulating red blood cell production. Up to a certain level it improves endurance performance. Too much and the blood becomes thick and sludge like and can lead to clots, heart attacks and strokes when sleeping and/or dehydrated. There were a number of young supremely fit cyclists who died this way during the EPO heyday.

 

It was very obvious to people who knew much about the subject that cycling was entirely corrupted and there was no way that Lance was clean while he was winning those 7 titles. But a massive PR blitz, a desire on the part of some for heroes and frankly some outright jingoism in this country (the french were accusing him so it was just jealousy!) put blinders on lots of people -- and continues to do so despite the overwhelming evidence against Armstrong.

 

Edit: About the link between testosterone supplementation and cancer. Remember there is a difference between the way endurance and power athletes use testosterone and/or steroids. Endurance athletes use low doses to enhance recovery from hard efforts (either training or competitions). The use of high doses can be counterproductive since they tend to cause weight gain. Enhanced recovery would be very useful during a multi week event like the Tour but it's doubtful that cyclists were taking large doses for long periods of time the way power athletes and body builders would. Given that I doubt that Armstrongs testicular cancer is related.

It's like the difference between stock car racing and modified.

(#293015)

The reason you watch any sport is to see people compete on a level playing field, starting from a common baseline, everyone with an equal shot at competing. That's what makes sports interesting. That's why you don't put a bantamweight boxer in the ring with a heavyweight... you get an extremely uneven contest with one competitor having a large intrinsic advantage over the other. 

 

Or back to stock car racing. When everyone's driving the same basic powerplant and chassis, then the victory goes to the team with the most skilled driver and pit crew, the best tactical decisionmakers, etc. It's a contest to see who's the better driver, in essence. Whereas with drag racing, drivers are important but the real contest is to see who can build the better car. So it becomes a race of money and resources, rather than skill and abilities.

 

Same with PEDs in endurance or strength sports. In that case, victory tends to go to the athlete who has the best pharmacist, and so you wind up watching a contest of chemicals and body manipulation rather than a contest of endurance and strategy. Who wants to root for the guy with the best drug dealer?

 

Drugs are fundamentally unsporting. 

M Aurelius was probably right.

I've never heard of a link

(#293036)

I've never heard of a link between exogenous testosterone and testicular cancer.  Where did you see that?  It is relatively common in men his age (when he was diagnosed) and even if there was a link it would be hard to prove it was from the injections versus a sporadic occurrence.

 

Don't get me wrong, he's probably a liar but I don't think he gave himself cancer.

Who knows.

(#293056)

Doesn't Testosterone, or Testosterone derivative stimulate cell growth. Not neccessarily cells in the testese but I could imagine some sort of a link being found.

People with higher T levels

(#293064)

are more prone to testicular cancer, so while there might not be a direct link between taking the drug and getting cancer, it's not a wild leap.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Where did you see this?  I

(#293087)

Where did you see this?  I did a quick check and couldn't find anything.  Testosterone is linked to prostate cancer, that's why chemical castration is a treatment option for some folks, but probably not testicular cancer.  Just saying, I dislike Armstrong as the next guy but claiming he gave himself cancer is a stretch.

Oh

(#293090)

Probably just me confusing the two.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

He's a liar to the core

(#293005)

As far as I'm concerned he's a sociopath. Not much else to say. Plenty of sociopath have done good works, but that does not change who they are.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

I know what you mean. A success. A resourceful person

(#293055)

with more than one tune to play. We do after all admire all sorts of unsavory characters like Napoleon, Ghengis Khan, Joshua.

 

But no doubt his TdF victories should be taken away. Even if he did not dope, his teammates did and TdF is a team sport. 

The Shuttle Endeavour Last Night

(#292989)

http://www.pbase.com/cichallenge/image/146668614

 

BTW, this image of the Endeavour, linked above, is the best you will see anywhere, though I did just have to fix it a little more (grin)

 

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

Awesome, Trav.

(#293003)

Sad to see them go, I guess, although I've always been a fan of the big dumb rocket approach.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Big-ness (image)

(#293008)

http://www.pbase.com/image/146678970

 

Best Wishes, Traveller (I brave the chill so you don't need to...lol)

F politics

(#292996)

I'm hanging out in napa with my wife and a bunch of friends. So again, F politics.

 

sincerely, Pranky

Julia Gillard is excellent.

(#292997)
mmghosh's picture

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/12/julia-gillard-sexism-austral...

no cathedral can be built if no community desires one

Wow, Thank You Manish...Kick A$$...If only Obama Would..nt

(#293000)

Traveller

Nice catch!

(#293004)

Thanks Manish.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Can't stand her myself.

(#293010)

Right wing authoritarian and cruel. 

Don't know Enough About Her Really, MA and Myself were...

(#293012)

...I am sure, responding to the topic she was covering in here  speech in Parliament.

 

Regardless of her other possible sins, on this she was correct, I believe and I liked her fire.

 

In case you haven't noticed, this has been something somewhat absent in Obama.

 

Traveller

Exactly...

(#293513)

My entire knowledge about her is that one video. And it was worth watching.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Huge rise in birth defects in post war Iraq.

(#292999)
mmghosh's picture

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/...

 

I personally think Saddam Hussein has not been held sufficiently responsible for this disaster.  He could easily have avoided the invasion by taking the Gaddafi route.

no cathedral can be built if no community desires one

Where's the democracy is messy chorus?

(#293002)

In Fallujah, more than half of all babies surveyed were born with a birth defect between 2007 and 2010. Before the siege, this figure was more like one in 10. Prior to the turn of the millennium, fewer than 2 per cent of babies were born with a defect. More than 45 per cent of all pregnancies surveyed ended in miscarriage in the two years after 2004, up from only 10 per cent before the bombing. Between 2007 and 2010, one in six of all pregnancies ended in miscarriage.

And we aren't talking about white phosphorus or depleted uranium. Lead and mercury residue from plain old conventional munitions are just as likely responsible.

Scientists who studied hair samples of the population in Fallujah found that levels of lead were five times higher in the hair of children with birth defects than in other children; mercury levels were six times higher. Children with defects in Basra had three times more lead in their teeth than children living in non-impacted areas. Dr Savabieasfahani said that for the first time, there is a "footprint of metal in the population" and that there is "compelling evidence linking the staggering increases in Iraqi birth defects to neuro-toxic metal contamination following the repeated bombardments of Iraqi cities". She called the "epidemic" a "public health crisis".

M Aurelius was probably right.

Seriously, Please Read...The Secret Cuban Missile Crisis...

(#293011)

We think we know what is happening in History, it's been 50 years now, Kennedy himself didn't know...(when people say things could be better in the United States and for the United States abroad...take this as a cautionary tale...things could be a hell of a lot worse)

 

Traveller

 

Since this is important, link with chilling and very good 12 minute video, especially the ending of the video, or full story below:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19930260

Cuban missile crisis: The other, secret one

Contrary to popular belief, the Cuban missile crisis did not end with the agreement between the US and Soviet Union in October, 1962. Unknown to the US at the time, there were 100 other nuclear weapons also in the hands of Cuba, sparking a frantic - and ingenious - Russian mission to recover them.

In November 2011, aware that the 50th anniversary of the most dangerous few weeks in history was less than a year away, my Russian colleague Pasha Shilov and I came across several new accounts that changed our perspective on the Cuban missile crisis and how much we thought we knew about it.

Growing up in Berkshire, England, through the nuclear paranoia of the 1980s, with Ronald Reagan's Cruise and Pershing missiles stationed only 30 miles away from my family home, I was inculcated with a keen awareness of Cold War brinkmanship.

Pasha grew up in Moscow and described how it was from the Soviet point of view - equally frightening by his account.

But what we've now learned about the chilling events of October and November 1962 has put our own experiences into perspective - and maybe given rise to a few more grey hairs along the way.

Our investigations took us to St Petersburg and the Soviet Submariners Veterans' Society via the National Security Archive in Washington DC, where Svetlana Savranskaya, the director of the Russian archives, told us an incredible story.

There had been a second secret missile crisis that continued the danger of a catastrophic nuclear war until the end of November 1962.

This extended the known missile crisis well beyond the weekend of 27-28 October, the time that had always been thought of as the moment the danger finally lifted with the deal between Kennedy and Khrushchev to withdraw the Soviet missiles in exchange for a US promise not to invade Cuba.

The secret missile crisis came about through an unnerving mix of Soviet duplicity, American intelligence failures and the mercurial temperament of Fidel Castro.

The Cuban leader, cut out of the main negotiations between the superpowers over the fate of the long range Soviet missiles stationed in Cuba, began to cease cooperation with Moscow.

Fearing that Castro's hurt pride and widespread Cuban indignation over the concessions Khrushchev had made to Kennedy, might lead to a breakdown of the agreement between the superpowers, the Soviet leader concocted a plan to give Castro a consolation prize.

The prize was an offer to give Cuba more than 100 tactical nuclear weapons that had been shipped to Cuba along with the long-range missiles, but which crucially had passed completely under the radar of US intelligence.

Khrushchev concluded that because the Americans hadn't listed the missiles on their list of demands, the Soviet Union's interests would be well served by keeping them in Cuba.

Kremlin number two, Anastas Mikoyan, was charged with making the trip to Havana, principally to calm Castro down and make him what seemed like an offer he couldn't refuse.

Mikoyan, whose wife was seriously ill, took the assignment knowing that the future of relations between Cuba and the Soviet Union were on the line. Shortly after arriving in Cuba, Mikoyan received word that his wife had died, but despite this, he pledged to stay in Cuba and complete negotiations with Castro.

In the weeks that followed, Mikoyan kept the detail of the missile transfer to himself while he witnessed the mood swings and paranoia of the Cuban leader convinced that Moscow had sold Cuba's defence down the river.

Castro particularly objected to the constant flights over Cuba by American surveillance aircraft and, as Mikoyan learned to his horror, ordered Cuban anti-aircraft gunners to fire on them.

Knowing how delicate the state of relations were between the US and Russia after the worst crisis since World War II, US forces around the world remained on Defcon 2, one short of global nuclear war until 20 November.

Mikoyan came to a personal decision that under no circumstances should Castro and his military be given control of weapons with an explosive force equal to 100 Hiroshima-sized bombs.

He then extricated Moscow from a seemingly intractable situation which risked blowing the entire crisis back up in the faces of Kennedy and Khrushchev.

On 22 November 1962, during a tense, four-hour meeting, Mikoyan was forced to use the dark arts of diplomacy to convince Castro that despite Moscow's best intentions, it would be in breach of an unpublished Soviet law (which didn't actually exist) to transfer the missiles permanently into Cuban hands and provide them with an independent nuclear deterrent.

Finally after Mikoyan's trump card, Castro was forced to give way and - much to the relief of Khrushchev and the whole Soviet government - the tactical nuclear weapons were finally crated and returned by sea back to the Soviet Union during December 1962.

This story has illuminated a chapter in history that has been partially closed for the past 50 years.

But it leaves us with a great respect for Mikoyan and his ability to judge and eventually contain an extremely dangerous situation which could have affected many millions of people.

Joe Matthews is a producer for Wild Iris TV, which has made a short film about the "secret" Cuban missile crisis

 

Felix does it!

(#293023)
Jay C's picture

Austrian skydiver Felix Baumgartner has just set a new freefall skydiving record: 128,000 feet (24-1/4 mi,. 39 KM!) from a balloon over New Mexico (Roswell, natch) - still no confirmation if he broke the sound barrier, though. Liveblog HERE.

 

So do you think anyone sent him on his way with that old chestnut about "watch that first step...."?

 

 

FYI

(#293030)

1. Use this method sparingly, once a week or less.
2. Never insert any body parts directly into the body of the vacuum or directly in the hose of the vacuum.
3. Always use an insertion tube as a hose attachment to insure you do not come in contact with any moving parts (fan blades) or bacteria from the hose.
4. Always have the off switch in easy reach. ...

The most thorough and helpful answer I've ever seen

(#293031)

on one of those sites.

M Aurelius was probably right.

High risk, high reward propositions

(#293065)

deserve thoroughness.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Prince Sihanouk dies

(#293049)
mmghosh's picture

a name to remember, for all of a certain age.

 

http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/bre89d0jz-us-cambodia-sihanouk/

no cathedral can be built if no community desires one

Yes, I Saw That With Sadness...Bad US Karma There!...nt

(#293050)

Traveller

Seems Like A Disproportionate Number Of Leaders. . .

(#293053)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .in that part of the world last a very long time: talking to a high school friend who moved back to Thailand after school alerted me to the fact that the King of Thailand has been on the throne for sixty-six years, making him by far the longest-currently-reigning monarch and one of the longest in history. Kim Il-Sung lasted well over forty years running North Korea. Given the volcanic political upheavals in that nation, Sihanouk probably should be credited with twenty extra years of life span for sheer difficulty.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Woo Hoo!

(#293051)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Packers win and I'm all the way up to a mighty 5-8 for the week! Another big week for BD (9-4), above water for Brutus and Sulla (7-6), and awful for the rest of us going into the Monday Night Chargers/Broncos game.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Ruh-Roh!

(#293052)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Hillary Rodham Clinton is not one to tolerate the taste of bus tires without a nasty counterattack.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

I'm Sorry, Utter Silliness...I don't Have the Time to Frisk This

(#293054)

...it is a hatchet wrapped in anonymous statements, purposeful evasions...it is silly.

 

My version stands without dates and times as I have provided...and sources.

 

So, no thank, you very much.

 

Traveller