This began as a comment to Hank's previous, The Manufactured Crisis.
Excellent rundown from The Fiscal Times at the link. The debt limit was created in 1917 to allow Treasury to sell bonds to finance a little excursion called World War I. It has been raised 89 times since 1933, generally with little or no political grandstanding. The reason why no grandstanding is simple: the debt limit in & of itself does not increase the debt or obligations of the US gov't. It merely guarantees the full faith & credit of the US to meet obligations Congress has already incurred. In other words, if you want to fight over borrowing, spending & debt, bills increasing borrowing, spending & debt are the place to do it. Most congresses for the past century, GOP and Dem alike, have understood this basic concept.
"The US Government Has Never Defaulted on its Debts." This is not true.
There have been isolated instances (1790, 1933, and 1979) in which the government restructured debt or did not make some interest payments in a timely manner.
Alexander Hamilton's plan to restructure US debt actually steeply discounted repayments on the prior gov'ts obligations, and is now generally considered a default. Widespread defaults in the Depression years owing to going off the gold standard are encapsulated in Perry v. United States. And 1979 saw a brief technical default on some Treasury payments, which resulted in t-bill rates spiking by around 60 basis points for several months -- a small glitch that would translate into about $50 billion/year in increased debt service costs. $50 billion is enough to fund unemployment payments for around 6 months: default would instead hand those taxpayer dollars people who hold treasuries. (WaPo's debt ceiling calculator.)
So default has happened in the past. When you're a young republic, it might help get your finances on a sound footing. When you're already carrying $14.3 trillion in debt, however, it is disastrously expensive.
Here's what hasn't ever happened before. Congress has never deliberately defaulted on US debt & obligations, the way Teahadis in Congress now want to do if they don't get their way.
Back in April, the Obama administration was calling for a "clean" debt-ceiling bill, but they were also gearing up for a fight. Even back then, Obama was signalling possible savings in Medicare & Medicaid, hoping to find a workable deal with newly elected Republican lunatics.
Republicans of course were having none of it. This was a new opportunity for grandstanding and brinkmanship on the nation's fiscal well-being, and the party whose sole reason for being these days is to enable wealthy Americans to Hoover up as much wealth as possible while leaving the rest of us with our 1995 income and 2011 cost of living, why, they were going to take it.
One interesting factoid is that a debt-ceiling fight would have been impossible prior to this past January, when Republicans suspended the so-called "Gephardt Rule." What's the Gephardt Rule?
House Rule XXVII was created back in the 80s in order to put a stop to grandstanding over debt ceiling votes, just like we're seeing now. In a nutshell, it automatically generates legislation increasing the US debt limit whenever Congress passes a budget resolution that increases spending without also increasing revenue. In other words, it ties debt limit increases to spending bills, whenever those bills would otherwise exceed the debt limit.
It is a wise & useful legislative tool, far wiser than Republican ideas like the Balanced Budget Amendment or efforts to tie the size of the government to some arbitrary % of GDP. The place to have a legislative battle over spending and public debt is on legislation increasing or reducing spending or public debt. Having a separate fight over borrowing, after Congress has already passed spending increases, leads to the psycho circus we're watching unfold today.
It is exactly the kind of legislative fight Section 4 of the 14th Amendment was designed to prevent forever. Congress should fight over whether to incur new obligations against the full faith & credit of the US. Congress should never fight over whether to then honor those obligations. To do so is suicidal.


My read is different
(#261874)Obama has optionally chosen to use this opportunity to push through antecedent goals of deficit reduction.
No president has ever negotiated to raise the debt ceiling and the "hostage" narrative should stop.
If Obama was genuinely pushed against his will into the very idea of negotiating a deficit reduction package, he might've pt.ed out that Rs only 6 months earlier passed massive tax cuts, much of it for the wealthy.
Instead Obama has entirely joined the GOP in calling for significant spending cuts while maintaining total silence on extending the Bush tax cuts.
This is Obama's baby as much as the GOP's.
Former Actor Speaks Out Against Debt Ceiling Brinkmanship
(#261857)This same individual presided over 18 increases in the federal debt ceiling, raised taxes 11 times, and never once saw government spending drop below 21.3% of GDP.
This man was, quite obviously, a hard core commie socialist with Obamaite leanings who would be primaried the hell out of today's GOP.
(Tip O'Neill of the hat.)
Don't believe everything you think.
Err.
(#261748)Jordan, please re-read what you just wrote and reconsider the specifics. Treasuries are not floating rate; only TIPS adjust, and that based on inflation. And Notes & Bonds are callable. Holders (current ones) of Treasuries gain nothing but a capital loss if they happen to sell in the near future. New buyers gain enhanced yield (and a chance for capital gains), but trade that for a good chance of getting called when things normalize.
"Unfortunately the universe doesn't agree with me. We'll see which one of us is still standing when this is over." -- Eliezer Yudkowsky
?????
(#261752)so higher rates don't result in higher borrowing costs? That's pretty counter-intuitive at best.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentNot if your loans are all fixed.
(#261753)I have a fixed 15-year mortgage. I don't care if rates go to the moon, I'm still gonna be paying what I contracted at 3 years ago. I have a credit card; if I make a purchase after rates go up, I'll probably pay a higher rate.
The government only worries about it to the extent that it has to roll-over existing debt that is maturing and will now only float at higher rates. Conversely, existing debt holders (just like my existing mortgage holder) get nothing except a kick in the butt. New debt holders will gain some yield, but are subject to both call risk (the government can call the debt with some lead time) and, presumably, some additional credit risk (since we defaulted and all....)
"Unfortunately the universe doesn't agree with me. We'll see which one of us is still standing when this is over." -- Eliezer Yudkowsky
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parentRight
(#261754)but I think that's where they got the $50 billion number - from new debt issuance, some due to rollovers.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentI understand none of that.
(#261750)As I understand the gist of CS Monitor's report, the rate on treasuries spiked after the default, meaning new bond issues had a higher rate, not that the rate on maturing bonds went up.
A similar spike today would amount to a good $50 billion/year in increased debt service costs...I've read. Could that be accurate? It sounds plausible, as you have some $14 trillion in treasuries constantly maturing and getting rolled over to new issues that would cost the government 0.6% more apiece.
Don't believe everything you think.
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parentIf the yields on new bonds spike, the.....
(#261756)....yield on the market for existing debt spikes, too. Say I get a mortgage at 6%. The originator values that at the current market level. However, if rates spike to, say, 10%, they now face a capital loss if they need to sell. That's because nobody in the market to buy debt will pay them X for their 6% asset when there are now brand new 10% assets on the market trading for X. So the 6% mortgage gets discounted to make the effective yield 10%. That's the price and yield adjustment you see being reported each day. You can escape it to some extent by holding to maturity, but that's problematic for various reasons (inflation, your own need for liquidity/cash, opportunity cost, etc.)
That doesn't mean the government gets off scott free, of course. As debt matures and needs to be rolled over, it will now have to be funded at the higher rates prevailing. That's particularly a problem for short-term debt like Bills, which get auctioned monthly to set new pricing and range in term to no more than a year. However, if the spike in rates is short-lived, the government can perhaps escape that hit. For longer-term debt, it too needs to be refunded if not paid off, but the trick there is that the government can call the debt in if rates become favorable.
"Unfortunately the universe doesn't agree with me. We'll see which one of us is still standing when this is over." -- Eliezer Yudkowsky
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parentYeah, but we're talking about government, not the bond
(#261758)market. A 0.6% spike in yields, if it's sustained, will invariably bleaken the gov't's budget picture.
I think the point of the story was that even a brief, technical default on a few payments in 1979 caused a substantial, months-long increase in debt service costs. So imagine what happens if Congress deliberately, for political reasons, defaults on billions in debt payments.
Don't believe everything you think.
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parentThere is zero chance of that happening.
(#261828)There will be a rise in the debt ceiling and if today's bond market news is any gauge of the matter, the investors are fairly sure the government will start getting its sh*t together.
Our bonds are selling, not because things are so great, but because everyone else's debt picture, especially Europe's, is worse. We can raise our debt ceiling. Though the picture isn't a perfect analogy, if you have a perfect payment record, you can ask BigBankCo to raise the limit on your credit card and like as not they will. Yes, if there's another technical default as in 79, there will be hell to pay, but it doesn't really affect the budget picture. The real deadline is the end of this month: if the debt ceiling isn't raised, S&P will give our bonds a D rating.
Panic will ensue. It will make the 79 panic look like a Sunday School picnic. Volcker was hell bent on tightening the money supply. Interest rates were soaring. There was plenty of blame to go around: Reagan was an idiot, Congress was a pack of idiots. Meanwhile, the little fishies were nibblenibblenibble at the bait of those high interest rates and when Treasury couldn't cut checks, it found itself in a world of hurt, a world we still inhabit. You're talking about a couple of months? No, that scar was permanent.
The only real cure for this disease is to make it personal for Congress and the President. If Congress and the President don't produce a budget on time, they don't get paid. For some of the wealthier Congresscritters, it would be no skin off their nose, but for some of these poor jamokes, it would produce genuine financial hardship. There would be fistfights in the Capitol Building, but we'd have some sanity in these budget talks, oh yes, none of these half-truths about who's wearing the dirtier shirt. They're all bastards and none of them are doing the business of the nation on schedule. Holding the nation hostage while they quarrel, waiting for the grownups over at Standard and Poors to tell them when the jig is up. Insane.
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parentWe'll see how well Boehner can whip for
(#261832)He's going to have all the Democrats on board, but there are going to be a lot of folks who simply won't vote for a debt ceiling increase no matter what because the baggers are going to try to primary them for it.
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says. -- Antonin Scalia
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parentI used to tell my kids: go on crying like that
(#261844)and I'll give you a reason. Boehner isn't a madman, he incapable of providing leadership at this stage of the game.
And leadership is tough, when you get down to it. First, accept the fact you're not going to be liked by everyone. Boehner's restive party majority isn't organized. The Baggers could have gotten everything they wanted if they knew what they wanted. Part of being a leader is explaining goals to followers, I'd say it's the largest part. Had he gone to the Tea Party and explained how things would look if the country was being run well, given them a vision such as FDR's famous Map Speech, he'd be a great leader. Here's where we are, here's where we need to go, here's the problems we face getting there and here's how we're going to attack those problems.
Spending isn't out of control, it's in the hands of people who have collectively gotten out of control. Taxes and entitlements aren't the problem here, they're just symptoms. Revenue is the problem because the economy is the problem: whether taxes are high or low, revenue goes up and down with the economy and we have to get the economy turned around first. It doesn't matter if your truck gets great gas mileage if it won't carry freight to market and pulling off the pollution controls won't put oil in the crankcase.
The problem, it seems to me, is that Republicans don't believe in the efficacy of government. That's simplistic, I know, but they seem to operate under the idea, and it really is a small R republican ideal, that election gives them mandate to push the envelope of legality in the pursuit of power for the length of their time in office. They do not see themselves as servants of the people or dedicated to the goal of a more perfect union.
Increasingly, I'm tempering my own self-described Liberal thought patterns toward a modified form of Libertarianism: insofar as government can be described as good, it punches above its weight class. It does more with less. It harnesses market forces to its own ends, never doing what can be more effectively managed in the private sector, leading by example, delegating where it can and effectively controlling what it must. This country needs more jobs and lots of them. We could get them if we were willing, as a people, to invest in ourselves, invest in education and infrastructure, not as make-work, but catching up on long-delayed and badly-needed repair work and overhaul of existing systems.
Curiously, though I'm tending more towards Libertarian these days, and even quasi-Conservative thanks to the works of Oakeshott , I haven't given up on certain Liberal tenets. We need more effective bureaucrats. We'd get them if we'd tear down some of these ancient Acronymic bastions of bureaucracy and reorganize them as does the military from time to time. These bureaucracies become self-justifying and self-perpetuating monsters. When each was created, it served some purpose: the FBI ramped up to solve the problem of interstate crime, the CIA for the Cold War, NSA for the era of satellite reconnaisance, TSA and Homeland Security in the wake of the War on Terror. Creating new bureaucracy is government's predictable response to a new problem and they just never go away because they become political plums. When I lived in Guatemala, I used to say an army without an enemy would invariably create one to justify its own existence. The FBI is tucked away in the hills and hollers of West Virginia thanks to the personal power of Robert Byrd. NASA is in Houston because of Lyndon Johnson. The list goes on and on. Look at all the new government consultants moving into their new buildings in the DC area, it's just monstrous.
I'm not changing my coat here. I'm just tired of being lumped in with Big Government Liberals intent on solving the world's problems by legislating them away. Yes we do need bureacrats, powerful bureaucrats: unenforced laws are no laws at all. But government's job is to do for us as a society what private industry cannot or will not do without direction and incentive. I despair of Pragmatists, them and their short-haul solutions to everything. Look at Obama and Boehner, half-o'-this and none-o'-that and we'll address that thorny issue after the elections. Not a strategic bone in either of their bodies.
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parentFunny, private enterprise has given far more reason to doubt
(#261846)the mantra that it leads to "efficiency." The titanic f--kton of waste and unemployment created by the greed frenzy of the 2000's proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that private enterprise can't even be trusted to look after its own interests.
Don't believe everything you think.
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parentLet's not complain about being sprayed by a shaken beer bottle.
(#261848)The pressure had been building up since the repeal of Glass-Steagall. Investment banks were highly efficient in those days: they were able to wrap up these wretched tranches of dogsh!t mortgages, get them rated by Moody's sight unseen and pawn them off on each other with complete immunity from the consequences by virtue of illusory backstop positions.
Numbers don't lie, people lie. Frenzy is a constant: go down to the floor of the Merc and watch (and listen!) what happens when a big fish comes into the pit to trade a thousand lot.
The economy of the 2000 decade was a shaken beer bottle. These guys were tossing these CDOs around like hand grenades, knowing exactly what would happen if the economy ever went south. And all those proles in Cubicle Land, working for all those greedy little real estate companies and loan-granting banks should have been able to see it coming, as close as they were to the problem. They had helped create this problem.
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parentWell exactly. Market capitalism is notably lemming-like.
(#261851)Like a lemming population in the wild, under normal conditions lemmings eat and breed like normal rodents. But, given a small increase in food supply (what we might call an inflationary food bubble), or a decrease in predation (what we might call deregulation), the little bastards will eat and mate like mad, quickly and logarithmically blowing through their own carrying capacity.
Mass starvation ensues, or mass migration in whatever direction the dwindling food supply appears to lead, until the population is culled to well under the original carrying capacity.
Bacteria and locusts show similar boom-bust cycles. The "natural" cycle of market capitalism appears to be equally as volatile & destructive.
Don't believe everything you think.
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parentAnd every attempt to attenuate these boom and bust cycles
(#261852)has been shouted down by the ignorami, the prophets of the so-called Free Market. Little do these morons realize how much regulation a truly free market requires. They only open their mouths to change out feet. They loudly rattle on about Force and Fraud, as if they understood the nature of either. As varies risk, so must vary regulation.
And despite watching the entire world economy implode due to a lack of regulation, these wise heads will tell you to your face we need even less! Listening to the likes of Michelle Bachmann screeching about high taxes -- where did this idiot come from? We aren't collecting taxes because all those crappy little companies which lived high wide and handsome and painted your toenails while times were good have closed their doors. Lowering their taxes, well gosh, maybe we need to give Jesus a call so's we can raise the dead: the bankruptcy court signed the death certificate three years ago.
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parentA great opportunity for Obama
(#261660)if the Republicans block an increase in the debt ceiling. Unfortunately he's too nice of a guy to take it. You see even though Congress can stop the debt ceiling from being raised they're not the ones who get to decide what gets paid from the revenues the government has left. So it goes like this.
Pay interest on the debt and take care of ongoing military operations.
Target all districts held by Tea party types and cut off all payments to such districts including Social Security and Medicare. No real political cost to Obama or the Dems for doing this since those folks were not going to vote for them anyway under any circumstances.
Target the rest of the Republican districts and cut off all the ear marks and infrastructure projects that would have gone to those areas.
It's the ultimate line item veto. Of course he won't do it but it would be interesting. There would probably be lots of legal challenges but they could be stalled for a while and in the meantime it would really bring home to the people who voted for the idiots in Congress responsible for the mess what the real consequences are.
Yes, you stole my idea
(#261710)Or rather came to it independently.
It's a good idea, but it won't happen.
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says. -- Antonin Scalia
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parentTarget tea party districts?
(#261683)My God, what a backlash. Even I might pick up a pitchfork.
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
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parentThis I Like....a Rough Education for the Yahoos....
(#261666)...you post & idea put a blissful smile on my face.
If only Obama had the balls....but as you note, he doesn't.
As Wagster wrote above, BD is closer to Obama than I am.
Traveller
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parentIt'd Be Stopped By Injunction. . .
(#261667). . .faster than you could say "equal protection." Of course, Obama could always decide not to fund a whole class of payouts that happen to go predominantly to Republicans--that would be politically obvious but not necessarily constitutionally vulnerable.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
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parentI wouldn't be so certain
(#261711)It surely does go against equal protection by the definition of the word, but there are a lot of judges out there that'd call this a political question and refuse to rule.
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says. -- Antonin Scalia
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parentBenefit Distribution Isn't A Political Question
(#261716)At least it hasn't been so historically. The Obama Administration might win in the end, but I'd bet heavily that at the very least we'd see a TRO/preliminary injunction until the issues were hammered out in the courts, and given the probable time frame that would be more than enough to kill the gambit.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
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parentThere's some precedent
(#261722)See Flemming v. Nestor.
The court held that there is no property interest in Social Security benefits. However, the law in question does state that Congress can change the benefits. Obviously the President cannot unilaterally say "Mr. Eiland doesn't get his SS benefits because he didn't vote for me."
I think you're right, but I'm not so sure that the courts would see it your way.
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says. -- Antonin Scalia
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parentNo matter what
(#261720)it would be a mess since there isn't enough money to pay everyone and for sure one group or another is going to be aggrieved and will try to get more for themselves through the courts. I doubt that Obama would try to play hardball politics in any case. It's just not his style. It would be nice to see the morons who voted the tea party in suffer more from the consequences of their actions than others though (Everyone will suffer to some degree unfotunately).
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parentI think it's the other way around
(#261718)Obama would probably lose in the end but I'm not sure a judge would be willing to issue an injunction that broad in the middle of a financial crisis.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentThis is true, but it isn't because Obama lacks *balls*
(#261676)that he'd never try a move like this. It's important to understand that he actually means what he says, and payback, political scorekeeping, just isn't how he operates. Agree or not with his stated policies, he believes those stated policies are the best available choices for the country, and everything he has done suggests that his only motive is to get his fiscal conservative agenda implemented. There is no hidden agenda.
A pogrom against Tea Party districts, with ensuing constitutional challenges, would have more or less the opposite effect.
I'm pretty sure Obama's priority at the moment is to get a debt limit/deficit reduction deal out of the way so he can spend the rest of 2012 working on (doubtless inadequate, but perhaps politically effective) job creation initiatives. Which Republicans will naturally stonewall as if they were protecting their virgin daughters from a pirate horde.
Don't believe everything you think.
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parentYup
(#261679)Obama is more of a liberal Republican circa 1970 than some sort of crazed radical. Which makes the GOP attacks against him so ridiculous on their face.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentNo...
(#261885)He's a moderate Republican from the 90s. A liberal Republican from the 70s is probably to the left of him.
And after the 70s of course, the term liberal Republican became an oxymoron.
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
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parentBut Wags, that's exactly why they be hatin' on him so.
(#261888)He's constantly getting in their paint and the GOP can't block. Obama jumps, fades and the ball goes through the hoop. Even though it's Romneycare writ large, they're still so mad about Obamacare getting through they have lost their tiny little minds.
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parentBoy, you're right about that
(#261892)That's probably why Nixon was so hated by liberals. In politics imitation is greatest form of aggravation.
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
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parentThe GOP can't block extension of the Bush tax cuts
(#261890)and massive entitlement spending cuts. So Democrats win!
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parentLiberal Republican Circa 1970?
(#261680)Sure, if you mean Dick Nixon. Who, yes, couldn't get elected dogcatcher as a Republican these days, even without the baggage of Watergate to deal with.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
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parentNixon wasn't the only one
(#261681)there were plenty of moderate to liberal Republicans in the 50s, 60s and 70s. It wasn't until Reagan that the conservatives began to purge the party of moderates.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentAt some Level I Resent Your Pointing out the Flaws In my Ravings
(#261671)....but you do do it nicely, and you are smart as all heck....so I guess I'll just have to suck it up and agree with you on this one.
(grin)
Best Wishes, Traveller
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parent*smiles*
(#261674)Which will make it easier for me to grin and bear it on the next occasion you are correct, sir. Politeness counts for a lot.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
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parentRecommended
(#261650)But for a sec, I thought your title said "...were Blaise to ask".
One factual adjustment should be made. We we didn't go off the gold standard during the Depression years. Rather, FDR forced banks and the public to relinquish their gold in exchange for dollars as a way to "fix" its monetary policy. Our leaving the gold standard didn't happen until Nixon, 1971.
As Phil Gramm once said (purportedly), you should never take a hostage that you're not prepared to shoot. The troubling part is the number of Republicans and Tea Partiers who are willing to shoot the economy. The GOP should have never picked this fight. I'll just say this. If we default on our debt, I'm leaving the party and won't vote for any GOP candidates in 2012 (assuming Obama doesn't veto debt ceiling legislation and assuming the Reid-led Senate doesn't block a bill from getting to the president's desk).
If you don't have any fresh ideas, then you use stale tactics to scare the voters.--Barack Obama, 2008
And what if they do default?
(#261714)I'm not interested in losing 20-30% of my 401k at the beginning of next month.
I can't withdraw that next week and put it back in after they reach the deal, can I?
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says. -- Antonin Scalia
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parentHa
(#261678)if we default on our debt I'm not sure that either of the two existing parties will be around to vote for.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentDouble ha
(#261709)There are laws against other parties being allowed to gain a foothold. They're called ballot access laws, and I have a good understanding of them. They were originally designed to keep Communists and Socialists off the ballot in the 20s and 30s. Now they're designed so that you'll only ever have two parties to vote for.
I think it is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if what it provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be amended. If that's what it says, that's what it says. -- Antonin Scalia
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parentI think you have too much atavistic loyalty
(#261663)to leave the Republicans, BD. Because let's face it... you are already closer to Obama than you are to the current mainstream of the Republican party. Social issues? I don't see you carping about abortion or prayer in schools or them gays. I imagine you're about where Obama is. Fiscal issues? You're for some tax hikes and mainly spending cuts, exactly what Obama is offering. Health care? From what I remember you were pretty agnostic so far. Foreign policy I know is your big hobbyhorse, and Obama isn't your ideal guy, but there's no McCain out there anymore. Lots of the Republican candidates are winding up to punch Obama for not withdrawing from Afghanistan sooner. (If I were a cynic, I'd say the traditional GOP hawkishness is being trumped by political convenience.)
Come to think of it, you're probably closer ideologically to Obama than I am. I guess the habit of cheering for the red jerseys is hard to lose.
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
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parentOr in other words,
(#261664)you're saying, "I don't believe you." Whatever, bub.
If you don't have any fresh ideas, then you use stale tactics to scare the voters.--Barack Obama, 2008
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parentI don't mean to say that
(#261682)and perhaps I shouldn't guess at your future responses. I'm just making an observation. You spend a lot of time taking partisan shots at someone who represents your views rather better than the alternatives you have.
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
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parentGoes with the territory
(#261688)The president's, that is, and you said it yourself. I have serious issues with his positions on our military conflicts and foreign policy.
Here's my line of thinking on the GOP. For now, I choose to stay in the party and try to help change it from within. Sadly, the party is moving in a direction I don't like, but I keep trying to criticize and persuade over to my point of view. However, if the party crosses a major line, such as deliberately causing a default on our obligations, then they've gone too far. I'd rather have none of it and be out of the party. If you don't believe me, then if the GOP causes a default, watch what I do.
If you don't have any fresh ideas, then you use stale tactics to scare the voters.--Barack Obama, 2008
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parentYou know, it is funny but
(#261653)You know, it is funny but Trent Lott has some Fox opinion piece debunking the "myths" of the debt crisis. It is, of course, full of outright lies and spin but he does make a good point - technically it would only be a default if we stop paying debt service, which is unlikely. Anyways, everyone know what you mean when you say "default". Also, I don't think you are in danger of leaving the party. Some form of Mcconnell's plan will go through after the tea party idiots are done with their symbolic votes next week.
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parentA "technical default" would be for the US gov't to fail to pay
(#261673)*any* of its legal obligations...not just t-bills and the like. Any failure to deliver funds for Pell Grants, for example, which universities around the country are counting on as part of their operating budgets for the 2011-12 school year, or veteran's pensions, or social security obligations, or Medicaid payments to states...any of those eventualities would have the same basic effect as a failure to pay maturing Treasuries in August. There would be a cascading economic crisis, and the full faith & credit of the US gov't would be undermined (it could lead to increased treasury yields as well).
Don't believe everything you think.
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parentI guess I was going with the
(#261693)I guess I was going with the definition of default = not paying debt or debt service. I suppose you are correct, technically, but I stand by my assertion simply because I can't stand to have someone correct me on the internet.
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parentI'm the same way.
(#261699)Reconsidering, I'm not sure the term "technical default" is what I was looking for...there's a Treasury Dept. FAQ document I looked at that said defaulting on any obligations would have similar net effects to defaulting on the literal debt. The US gov't being capriciously unwilling to meet its obligations...a Congress deliberately choosing to break its agreements...that would be unprecedented and would have far-reaching effects throughout every state, city, and foreign economy.
Don't believe everything you think.
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parentOh no! I've read several GOP
(#261700)Oh no! I've read several GOP presidential hopefuls and luminaries claim it 'taint no big deal. We do this sort of thing all the time! The President is lying! And scaring old folks! Treasury is lying! There's plenty of money sloshing about, we just need to look harder!
Forget the many, MANY Republican economists/politicians/opinion makers who think default would lead to disaster.
So, are these nay-sayers lying because they know default will never happen and thus, they have plausible deniability? Or, do they really believe what they say?
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parentI imagine
(#261701)Some do and some don't. Some idiots and some cynics.
There are knowledgeable people who say there's really a chance they won't come to a deal.
And there are other very smart people (like Calculated Risk for instance) who confidently say this is all a charade and they will come to an agreement as they always have before. The markets seem to be seeing it that way.
My guess is there will be a deal, but the risk of default is more than negligible.
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
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parentMy only comment is the very
(#261708)My only comment is the very smart people who claim a deal will be reached with 100% certainty don't have a satisfactory explaination for their assertion. Except - well, it just has to happen that way or else... Try to imagine all life was we know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light. Just because the consequences are dire does not make an outcome impossible, especially considering the frosh teatards don't believe these consequences are real because Obama said they were.
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parentThat's the physician I know nt
(#261695).
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentThe danger here
(#261658)is not that the US is incapable of paying it's debts, it's that the US is showing that it's unwilling to pay it's debts. While we would almost certainly continue to pay the principal and interest on out debt, we would not be paying other obligations. If a company did that they would earn a downgrade on their rating.
I blame it all on the Internet
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parentHow suicidal?
(#261649)The boy wonder has a great piece.
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs