Obamacare - Court Watching & Election Predictions

Apologies in advance to everyone who's ready to move on to some other topic already... although for the life of me I can't see how that's possible. For the few lost souls like me who still want to play, here's my best argument for the constitutionality of the individual mandate, followed by a bit of gaming out the summer to see if we can't predict how different rulings might play at the conventions and going into November.

 

[hr]

 

Jordan's Amicus for the Individual Mandate

 

Like most pro-reform people, I view the mandate as a split-the-baby half measure designed to get the necessary Blue Dog votes in Congress. The United States has the most idiotically expensive and bass-ackwards health care system on the planet, and reform is absolutely necessary. If all we were interested in was providing the best possible care to the most people with the most efficient use of dollars and resources, we'd simply create a Medicare For All system that would cover catastrophic and preventive treatments, with private providers able to offer more advanced/experimental/optional treatments at more profitable rates. But we are not that country.

 

The government's position on the mandate is basically the right position. They could have stated it more clearly and forcefully in oral arguments, but at bottom it's a rock-solid argument in defense of the mandate.

 

Randy Barnett's active/passive distinction, while it has logical and practical problems of its own, is nontheless interesting, and I agree with him that a government in which Congress can make us all buy GM cars or health club memberships, simply to help out those markets, is not a government of enumerated powers. But that is not what the individual mandate does.

 

The active/passive distinction is meaningless in this case because we are all already actively involved in the commerce of health insurance. With the individual mandate, Congress is merely proposing that everyone who is covered by the nationwide insurance system should pay into it. Because Congress is regulating an already-active interstate market, there is no novel power being asserted here, and there is no new Commerce Clause line to draw. The mandate is, in effect, a completely banal and ordinary exercise of Commerce power as it was intended: Congress is setting regulations in an interstate market to make that market fairer and more efficient for all participants.

 

There's been a lot of confusion over this point, not least among the conservative justices themselves, so a brief explanation. Insurance is like gambling in reverse...members of an insurance risk pool pay premiums in order to hopefully "cover" whoever loses the bet...someone's house burns down, someone's business gets tagged in a liability suit, etc. Actuaries calculate the total likely cost of losses to the pool for a given period of time, and then they divide those total losses among all pool members in the form of premiums, to be paid in advance. You lose a little bit now so that you don't lose a lot later on...that's insurance. Now premiums serve two purposes. One, they cover or hedge the losses of every member of the pool in a highly efficient way (the cost for each individual to self-insure against the same losses would be orders of magnitude higher). But premiums also get turned into claims and actually go to pay for replacement costs to individuals who roll the unlucky dice. Premiums don't simply cover notional losses in the future; they also pay for actual losses in the present. As a policyholder, you are covering yourself in the future, but you're also paying for the losses of other lucky duckies right here and now. The money you pay into a risk pool gets turned around immediately and (minus the insurance company's cut) is paid out in the form of claims to doctors, hospitals, pharmaceutical companies and medical suppliers.

 

What all of that means is that every single one of us who is currently somewhere within the United States is covered by the hodgepodge, frankenfurter US health insurance system. By law (ERISA), by custom and by cultural preference, doctors and hospital resources are standing by ready to offer you medical treatment regardless of your ability to pay. Hospitals are required to have the staffing and resources on hand to be able to treat every medical emergency or serious illness in their region. They are standing by because someone is paying for them to stand by, and that someone is a combination of taxpayers (Medicare/Medicaid funds) and private insurance policyholders. Doctors' salaries, nurses, medical equipment, hospital rents & taxes, drugs and other supplies are all paid for on an ongoing basis by insurance premiums.

 

As a result, everyone in the country is insured. But not everyone pays for the coverage they enjoy without knowing it. Everyone is in the risk pool, but not every member of the pool pays their fair share: Congress acted to change that. Now, Randy Barnett and libertarians want us to live in a fee-for-service world, where individuals more or less self-insure and only pay for medical care when they require services. It's an economically terrible approach to health coverage, but aside from that the key point from a legal aspect is that that is not the world we live in. Like it or not, insurance is the prevailing method for covering medical expenses in this country, and if Congress wants to reform the health care market, they have to do it through insurance. 

Health Care Spending by Funding Source (2009, in billions)

Insurance, all sources $1,767.4

Public Spending (CDC, etc.) $77.2

Public Investment $156.2

Total "Social" $2,000.8

 

Out-of-Pocket $299.3

Philanthropy $186.1

Total "Private" $485.4

Justices Scalia, Roberts and Kennedy are concerned that, if they allow Congress to compel people to purchase health insurance, there's no limit to what Congress can do. This is a misguided worry. Everyone is not in the automobile market. There is no chance that, in a milk emergency, you will be given a GM car to drive to the store, paid for by strangers. There is no chance that, if you get hungry, you will have a year's supply of broccoli given to you by the good people of your state. You are not in the broccoli market, unless you buy broccoli. You're not in the automobile market, unless you buy a car. But you are in the health insurance market, whether you yourself are a policyholder or not. Someone is providing you with a service...insurance coverage...whether you asked for it or not.

 

You may not be "actively" paying for the coverage you are receiving, but insurers and medical professionals are "actively" covering you all the same. You are an expense or liability simply by virtue of being alive. Now Justice Scalia would obviously like to dismantle that entire system and go back to the 19th century where all citizens are equally free to die in a ditch if they can't pay for medical treatment; unfortunately for his judicial philosophy, do so would be legislating from the bench on a monumental scale, and it would contravene both Congress and the general consensus in this country which both hold that everyone should have minimum, basic health coverage.

 

So, looked at this way, there's no need to define the health insurance market as "unique" or to develop a test or bright line separating it from the broccoli, automotive, or health club markets. With Obamacare, Congress isn't forcing you into commerce in order to regulate you...it's forcing you to pay for commerce you're already involved in.

 

[hr]

 

Gaming Out the Election

 

What conservatives are hoping is that the court will either sever the mandate, or strike down the law entirely in order to set back the "agenda" of trying to reform the US health system. Ultimately for conservatives, the aim is to embarrass the President going into a midterm election. Nevermind that the individual mandate was originally promoted by the Heritage Foundation and championed by all of the primarying conservatives now professing pant-sh%%ting terror at idea. Seems at the moment like there's a slim advantage to the possibility the court will strike down the mandate, but leave the rest of ACA as a giant unfunded hulk.

 

That would certainly embarrass the President. But how is this likely to play out, politically, over the summer?

 

The ruling comes out in June most likely. Mitt Romney will still be fending off flavor-of-the-week primary challengers (Jeb Bush! Brokered convention!). The economy will be showing signs of recovery, except for gas prices, and no thanks to a completely inert Republican House, and the Scott Walker election in early June will reheat the war-on-unions polemic nationwide. And then Boom! SCOTUS overturns the President and Democrat majority's key accomplishment (or part of it at any rate). What happens?

 

Obamacare Overturned. This is what Republicans are hoping for, but I wonder if they'd like the outcome. My feeling is that this would be an explosive ruling that would galvanize both sides going into the election...Republicans think the ruling would mark a huge tidal surge in their direction as the Democrats' landmark, generational reform effort becomes a symbol of liberal overreach. But of course the ruling would also galvanize Democrats and liberals already convinced by Citizens United that the court is corrupt. The Walker recall plus a radical SCOTUS ruling would come as a clarion call for putting an end to the do-nothing Congress and Republican willingness to break the government rather than let Democrats carry out Republican-backed, Heritage Foundation-drafted, Mitt Romney-approved reforms. In Democrats' favor, Republicans will be forced to argue counterfactuals (the Soviet nightmare of paying for national health coverage we already enjoy), while Democrats will be able to point to the rollback 6-8 wildly popular programs that have already helped tens of millions of people.

 

Mandate Overturned. This is the odds-on favorite at the moment, although politically speaking this too would be fairly explosive. Somewhat less so since a) the mandate hasn't been imposed yet and b) nobody can explain exactly how or if Obamacare will function without it. Confusion makes it harder to rally the troops. I'd say the impact would be a more restrained version of the above: Republican hope for no change will wax ecstatic as the base sees a chance to grab seats in Congress and maybe even throw out the Center-Right President they love to hate. But at the same time, furious Democrats and liberals will be up in arms to put an end to conservative do-nothingism. It'd be interesting to see which way the narrative would go over the summer, as now both parties would be arguing counterfactuals. The insurance industry will be pissed. But the vast majority of reforms -- end of recissions, mandatory coverage, mandatory MLR spending caps, etc. would still be in place. This would be a big story going into the election, but it's hard to say how it would play out.

 

Judicially, it'd be interesting to see the court's rationale for striking down the mandate. If they buy into Randy Barnett's active/passive distinction, which is essentially a brand new judicial doctrine, expect a wave of challenges to everything from Medicare Part D to ERISA to contracting rules. There's a lot of standing Commerce Clause precedent which will be standing pretty wobblily in the event of a new bright line Commerce test. (Basically, every time Congress compels you to do something under a Commerce power, they are compelling you to do something active that impacts interstate trade on some level, so....)

 

Obamacare Upheld. This is the 2nd most likely outcome, given the court's historic & institutional unwillingness to become involved in legislation, and given the basic soundness of Congress's reasoning as presented by the SG. Granted, this is largely the same court that handed down Citizens United, Heller, Hamdan et al., and these justices have shown substantial willingness to reign in the executive and the states/municipalities... then again, it's also largely the same court that gave us Bush v. Gore, and so their willingness to hand down a nonjudicial, purely political gimme to US conservatives also has to be considered.

 

But let's say the court upholds Obamacare, possibly with some new active/passive Commerce Clause test that just barely allows the mandate to survive (and which causes untold headaches down the road as above). How does it play out? Just a pure guess, but I'd say it probably infuriates the far right and libertarians, but leaves the rest of the country more or less uninterested. Another victory in a string of victories for Obama to claim in November. I don't think a victory for the mandate will inspire much passion in the liberal/Democrat/moderate camps, for the simple reason that nobody really likes it all that much. Better Than Nothing! isn't much of a campaign slogan.

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Hm, not sure why your diary isn't showing up

(#277638)

Maybe we'll have to wait until Hank rolls out of bed.

 

I could see it on edit, though, and it's a fine diary.

 

I was just thinking this a.m. that everyone else seems to have moved on from the topic of SCOTUS potentially overturning the left's once-in-a-generation shot at reforming health care and like you I haven't either. Plus I don't want to wait til June to find out how this turns out.

 

I'm in shock that it seems as likely as any other ruling that the whole bill will be shot down.  Previously I thought upholding the entire bill was the most likely scenario with say a 1/3 - 2/5 chance of just striking down the mandate. I wasn't bothered by either of those scenarios and considered the whole bill being struck down as fairly remote.

 

The Obama admin. should not have crafted a bill or legal defense according to which the individual mandate was so central and difficult to extricate from the rest of the bill. It could've been paired down to an optional funding mechanism. At least the legal defense should've presented it this way to SCOTUS since that construal appealed to two circuit appeals courts.

 

Instead we're in the situation where Kennedy appeared equally likely as not to strike down the entire ACA.

 

This is politically possible in part b/c the bill is not popular and has no constituency beyond hardcore Obama supporters. It's centrist slop and a lesson for the future. Ram through a significant expansion of medicare next time via reconciliation, you idiots. 

I can't tell either.

(#277639)

I've been messing with it for over an hour, trying to find invisible characters or unclosed tags, and no luck. It was showing up originally, until I added the table with the breakdown of healthcare spending and the link to the census website.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Woo hoo! Wall of copy, biatches! -nt-

(#277640)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Aaaannd it's gone again.

(#277642)

All I did was I went through and added paragraph breaks and boldface type to section headings. The diary's back to being a no-show.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I tinkered with it and can't seem to get it to work either

(#277650)

On behalf of the site management, I would like to apologize for the difficulties you are experiencing. 

 

On the strength of your title and reputation, however, you are approaching 100 views of an entirely empty diary.

 

For those of you who could not acheive this level of readership with diaries that have text, you should feel shame.

It's the pdf link

(#277651)
HankP's picture

I'll work on it when you're done with it.

I blame it all on the Internet

Hank is forever saving the day

(#277653)

Now can you save the rest of the health care bill besides the mandate from the conservatives on the high court?

Only with a sniper rifle nt

(#277654)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

Thanks, Hank! -nt-

(#277656)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Market individuation

(#277652)

"You are not in the broccoli market, unless you buy broccoli"

 

No one slices up markets this fine-grained, not for anti-trust or any other purpose. That would be like talking about the juandice treatment market instead of the health care market.

 

The analog to the health insurance markt here would be a food market that everyone does in fact participate in. So your distinction doesn't rule out the broccoli objection.


An automobile market is less fine-grained than a brocolli markt and therefore more plausible, but it seems equally plausible that we could speak of the "transportation" market which everyone is already participating in to at least some extent, and certainly to the extent that they're participating in the health insurance markt.

 

So it's not clear that your distinction rules out the mandated purchase of GM cars either. 

That isn't quite right.

(#277657)

I meant "broccoli" is a stand-in for the food market...but even so the food & transportation markets aren't the same as the health insurance markets, for the simple reason that you're not insured in the food & transportation markets. 

 

That is, no private individuals are stockpiling food in order to feed you in the event that you have some personal nutritional emergency. There's the food stamp program, but that's a government-funded entity. Kroger's and Whole Foods are not required to maintain supplies of extra food, staff and a delivery truck standing by in case you or someone like you needs a handout. Likewise with transportation. If you suddenly need to get across the country, airlines don't save extra seats for you to fly on a bill-me-later basis. Most of the transportation infrastructure is paid for with public funds, etc.

 

Whereas with the health system, very simply you are being covered right this moment in the event that you need medical treatment, regardless of your ability to pay. You are "in" the market in the sense that resources are being kept at the ready for you should the need arise. 

 

So, Congress can and does regulate the interstate commerce in food...but generally only at transaction points (where goods are produced, shipped, sold, destroyed, etc.), and so the regs only affect individuals when they engage in a transaction. But with health insurance, the transaction is current and ongoing...people pay premiums and Medicare taxes, and the coverage they provide extends to everyone, whether they pay or not. We don't always buy food. We're not always in transit from one place to another. But we *are* always covered by the national frankensystem of health care resources.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Right this moment private individuals

(#277661)

are stockpiling food to feed me and everyone else in the country. B/c we're all consuming food every day (or at least every week).

 

I don't see why it matters whether sufficent stockpiles are required by a government regulation or whether the stockpiles are for an emergency. Everyone's participated in the food market in the past, will in future, and therefore is right now, already a participant in the food markt. So mandate supporters should allow that Congress can make a food-related mandate. 

 

Second, it looks like all you have to do to justify brocolli purchases on your proposal is for government to pass a regulation requiring the nation's food suppliers to have enough total supply on each day to feed the population for that day. Such a regulation would surely be constitutional and now there's nothing to differentiate the food markt from the health insurance markt.

 

It seems to me the right answer to the broccoli problem for mandate proponents is just to allow that Congress could require everyone to purchase broccoli, though not to eat it (contra the Fed judge in FL). This doesn't lead to limitless powers, however, since COngress can't e.g. mandate purchasing a given toy, given that everyone is not participating in the toy market, unlike the food or health insurance mrkt. 

Catchy, that's just silly.

(#277672)

Nobody is "stockpiling" food...food is moved to market in order to sell. Most of it sells, a small percentage is thrown out or stolen. Grocery stores have no obligation to simply give you food just because you need it. Nobody is giving away food uncompensated.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I don't see what difference that makes

(#277675)

Sure, there's no regulations in force to give away food first and bill later, a la healthcare.

 

But there could be a government regulation to have enough food on hand, on the shelves, in the trucks, etc. to sell to consumers should they want to purchase it. It would be a dumb regulation, but it wouldn't be unconstitutional.

 

If it passed, the government would every second be making sure you could enter into an exchange in the food market should you desire to. That's similar enough to the conditions you say make the health insurance markt special, so government should also be able to mandate food-buying in that scenario.

 

Separately, everyone has bought food in the near past and will in the near future (assuming you're not on your last meal). Even though everyone's not buying food every second, we're all still continuous participants in the food market by any reasonable standard. So for that reason as well, mandates on food purchases should be OK to the mandate proponent.  

 

 

There would have to be a regulation not only

(#277676)

that grocery stores have to stockpile food, but also that they have to give out food to whoever needs it, regardless of ability to pay. Then that would indeed be "food insurance." 

 

Since there is no such program, and even the idea of having such a program seems ridiculous, the only conclusion is that the food market and the health care market are NOT analogous.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I thought you were saying the health insurance markt was unique

(#277678)

B/c everyone is already participating in it. no one's being mandated into the market, they're already participants.

 

You pointed out that this b/c everyone is being guaranteed health care by the gov. 

 

My response is that everyone is already also a continuous participant in the food markt.

 

Granted, it's not b/c the government has instituted "food insurance" but it hardly matters *why* everyone is a participant in a market, it just matters that they are. Then no one's being mandated to join a market, they're already in it.

 

So for different reasons everyone's a participant in both the health insurance and food markets, and its constitutional to have mandates that apply to everyone in both.  

Catchy, is anyone obligated to give you food

(#277679)

whether you pay for it or not (or rather, whether they get paid or not)? Is anyone obligated to give you a car, or send you across country? 

 

We're already being given a service; health care coverage. Some of us pay for that service, some don't. We're not already being given "food coverage" or "transportation insurance."

 

The fact that we're notionally "in" the food market at all times is beside the point. Nobody in that market is liable to you regardless of payment.

 

Health providers have a legal and financial liability to you, and must provide health services to you, at any time, just about no questions asked. It doesn't matter from this perspective whether health insurance is "unique" - it's simply a fact that there is an ongoing financial arrangement that makes health insurance subject to the Commerce Clause.

M Aurelius was probably right.

That sounds too close to saying

(#277680)

"the food market isn't like the insurance market b/c food isn't insurance."

 

You've pointed out some differences between the food and health insruance markets I agree with - e.g., no financial liabiity if someone doesn't sell me food.

 

But I've pointed out similarities - no one can meaningfully opt out of either market and in fact everyone is a participant of both.

 

Who wins?

 

In truth I don't know.

 

But it seems to me that what's centrally problematic about the mandate is the idea of government coercing a citizen to enter a markt they don't wish to.

 

That's not a problem for markets people already participate in, and regulating commerce in markets that span state lines is typically COnstitutional.

 

So my similarity may be more important than your difference.   

Health providers have a liability

(#277688)

to everyone in the country in a way that food providers don't have. I don't think the difference could be any plainer. 

But it seems to me that what's centrally problematic about the mandate is the idea of government coercing a citizen to enter a markt they don't wish to.

Ugh. You're repeating the Randy Barnett frame as if it's the truth, and as if I hadn't said anything a-tall. Once again: you can't be "coerced" to enter a market you're already a part of.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Liability is *a* difference between the two markets

(#277693)

But of course the question is whether you've got your finger on an *Constitutionally significant* difference. I'm not yet persuaded, but yours is not an implausible proposal.

 

"you can't be "coerced" to enter a market you're already a part of."

 

Jordan, I was assuming that's true for the health insurance market from my very first comment.

 

I was also floating the general idea that the absence of coercion to enter a market is what makes a mandate for that market constitutional.

 

It still seems to me that, on these assumption, a mandate should also be fine for the food market, since, like the health insurance market, no one can be coerced to enter the food market to which they're already (also) a part of.

 

This is perhaps a smaller point than you were expecting? I'm basically just saying there's nothing particularly wrong with biting the bullet on the broccoli example. I don't think everyone is a participant of every market.

There is a mandate for the food market

(#277699)
HankP's picture

perhaps you've heard of agricultural price supports and tariffs?

I blame it all on the Internet

If the government has the power

(#277747)

to force grocery stores & restaurants to hand out food to anyone who asks for it, and if there were an interstate "food allowance" fund that people paid into in order to keep grocers & restauranteurs in business, then yes they'd probably also have the power to make everyone pay into that program. 

 

Otherwise, the analogy really doesn't hold up.

 

We're all potential participants in any market you can think of, but I don't think the Commerce Clause extends to notional or potential markets. Two hypotheticals, if you will.

 

The iPlaid Market. I don't know if you're aware of this, but in addition to being a not-so-celebrated internet personality, I'm also an inventor and product designer. Yep. And I'm working on a new touch tablet, the iPlaid, just got patent approval. It looks and functions like an iPad, except that the only software it will run is PlaidOS, a GUI that lets you browse over 14,000 different patterns and colors of plaid. The color accuracy is incredible; it'll knock your socks off.

 

A new bill moving its way through Congress, the Know Your Tartans Act of 2012, will compel every adult American to purchase an iPlaid. Lucky me! You see, as an American living in 2012, you're already part of the computer tablet market. Own an iPad or iPhone or a Droid? Subscribe to a data plan? Ever use iTunes? Then there you go. Also, as an American, you have mixed ancestry, and part of that ancestry includes Scottish, Irish and Scots-Irish descent. Part of looking after your General Welfare involves knowing your own personal history (so you don't have to repeat it), and in addition as a person of potential Scots descent, you're already in the plaid market as well.

 

The Oxygen Market. I also own a side business, purifying and bottling atmospheric gases. As a breather, there's no denying that you're already in the oxygen business, and since Congress wants you to buy American, you'll want to quit freeloading off of all that oceanic oxygen and check out my line of consumer products.

 

The difference is that health care isn't a notional market. Money is being spent today, resources and staff are being kept in readiness today, in order to make sure you, I and everyone have a reasonable chance of getting health care should we need it, but only people with health insurance are fully paying for that expense. But while we're all participants in the food market, our participation is only notional until we actually buy something. And we pay in full whenever we buy food. There is no uncompensated food market anywhere in the country (aside from shoplifting). 

 

The point being that health insurance is not a notional, potential, inferential market that covers all Americans. It is a real, ongoing expense that covers all Americans...paid for by only some Americans. All of this interesting discussion of Raich and the active/passive distinction is beside the point.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Jordan, I think an Iplaid app

(#277749)

would be better.  Anyway, here in the US tartans are mainly relegated to socks and neckties.  Kilts might be more popular if you made a law banning incredibly obese men from wearing them.  Heck, for that alone I might ditch my small government leanings.  Call it the 'Pleat to the Cheek' law, making it unlawful to require more than 75 pleats of cloth to cover your buttocks.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

See, I'd think about making kilts mandatory

(#277763)

the larger you are. At some point pants simply become unfeasible, and kilts are ever so much more stylish than a muu muu.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Where the **** do you two live?

(#277696)

I don't get this idea that everyone effectively has health insurance, but not food insurance.  Is there some state that's never had AFDC,  food stamps, subsidized lunch programs, etc?

 

Everyone has "insurance" that they will get enough food to stay alive.  Of course, it's provided by the govt rather than an order for grocery stores to simply give people the food.  Is it your contention that it's constitutional for the govt to protect hospitals' (or grocers') profit from free riders, but not their own treasury?

Those are all paid for by public funds.

(#277746)

No grocery store has to give you food even if you have no food stamps. The last question doesn't make much sense. Can the gov't tax people? Yes. Can it spend tax money for the general welfare? Yes. Can it order grocery stores to give out food uncompensated? No.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Why not?

(#277748)

Your saying that the govt can pass a law forcing doctors to treat patients who can't pay,  but it would be unconstitutional to pass a law that if someone is in critical need of food and has no cash,  the grocery store has to give them food and worry about payment later?

 

 

 

The United States Government already has.

(#277759)

It's called EMTALA. Hospitals can't turn people away, whether they have insurance, cash, or no.

"I've been on food stamps and welfare.  Anybody help me out?  No!" Craig T. Nelson (6/2/2009)

Yes, we know

(#277764)

that's why this case made it as far as it did.  EMTALA, according to the argument, forces hospitals to bear the cost of the uninsured, which causes them to raise prices, which affects insurance costs, and insurance is an interstate market.   Any break in this chain and the pro-ACA argument falls apart.

The constitutionality of EMTALA is not in question here.

(#277760)

Maybe it should be, but for the present case it's simply part of the reality of the situation. There is no equivalent of EMTALA or any similar law (ERISA, HIPAA, etc.) in the food industry (or really, any other industry), and so these comparisons are necessarily all built on imaginary counterfactuals. 

 

I suppose it is an interesting constitutional question why there can be an EMTALA in health care, but not in any other industry, but that is *not* the question before the court in this case, and quite obviously unless you're a fan of "legislating from the bench," the court should wait until that question does arise before pronouncing on the issue.

 

Unfortunately for those looking to challenge the constitutionality of EMTALA, the case history so far indicates that the law is pretty well-established and unlikely to be overturned. 

M Aurelius was probably right.

There are two

(#277765)

levels of the supposed broccoli power.

 

(a) The govt could today, independent of any other law, mandate broccoli.

(b) The govt could mandate broccoli if they manufactured a pretext by also passing a Grocer's EMTALA.

 

You are arguing (b) but not (a),  but the people who don't want a broccoli power don't find (b) acceptable either.

 

--------

 

I'm slightly sympathetic to the "wait until it comes up" philosophy but I hope you'd agree it could be taken too far:

 

SC: "You can't do a kickdoor search without a warrant or an emergency, we already decided that."

Police: "But we wore red hats."

SC: "OK, you can't do it with red hats either"

(next week, after another such raid)

SC. "You're in contempt"

Police: "We're not in contempt, we wore green hats"

SC: "It doesn't matter what kind of ha..."

Police: "BZZT! You're ruling on our future choice of hats!  Legislating from the bench! You have to wait until after we do the blue hat raid before you can say anything about that."

 

Surely you'd agree the SC can look at an array of essentially equivalent justifications and announce that none of them are going to fly, even if they haven't been tried yet.   They could decide (and I hope they will) that artificially creating participation in a market by forcing providers of anything to give it out to non-participants would prove to much, and therefore, the whole method must fail.

Then the people who don't want (b) are challenging

(#277772)

the wrong law. SCOTUS itself has ruled on an EMTALA case (in my previous links), and while they kind of punted (a per curiam ruling on the applicability of minutiae in the law's language), they sure didn't seem inclined to question the constitutionality of the law itself. 

 

Take a look again at the case history...dozens of cases have made their way into appellate courts over the years...not one has so much as considered a constitutional challenge.

 

Think about that for a moment. Since the law was signed in 1985, over 1700 different hospitals have been hit with EMTALA citations*. Any single one of those hospitals & health care networks would have had plenty of standing for a suit against the constitutionality of the law itself, but so far, bupkis.

 

*Linked article contains an excellent rundown of the law's legislative & legal history along with its impact on the health care industry. Today memories of the old "wallet biopsy" and women giving birth in hospital parking lots are ancient history...but that could change.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I agree

(#277775)

that if EMTALA is viewed as unquestionably constitutional then it strengthens your case at that point in the chain.   But it's still not a slam dunk - the court could just rule that Congress can require free ER service,  because hospitals voluntarily accept EMTALA as a condition of participating in a licensed, regulated industry,  but OTOH can't force individuals to participate in commerce, and that the mere possibility that they could use the free ER service is not commerce - they actually have to use it for it to count.  There are already many voluntary/involuntary distinctions in constitutional law.

 

The 'everyone' participates part of your case is weak.  There are many, many people - at least in the hundreds of thousands, and probably a few million - who never have insurance and do not show up for free service,  and some smaller number who never participate in commercial health care at all.

Already covered in the diary & in comments.

(#277777)

Hospitals are required to maintain the resources to cover EMTALA patients (which is, potentially in effect, everyone in the country). That is, a service is being provided to everyone (emergency health coverage) with no requirement that *anyone* pay doctors & hospitals for that service.

M Aurelius was probably right.

So what?

(#277779)

Congress or its agencies require, for example, trucks have safety lights and emergency kits on them, a potential benefit for everyone, not just people who ship by truck, while requiring truckers to bear the whole cost.  The trucker may eat the cost, or may pass it on by charging higher prices, it's his/her problem.

 

 

 

Can you quantify the financial benefit to you

(#277781)

represented by safety lights on trucks? Or does that require a chain of inference?

M Aurelius was probably right.

Why?

(#277783)

Is "quantifiable" being added to universal, necessary, and unpredictable? 

 

The DOT and other agencies put out claims for the number of lives (and dollars) saved through regulations,  but I won't go get them because I think the numbers are BS and it wouldn't be honest to use them in a debate.

 

Can you quantify the costs to you of healthy people paying fee for service instead of going through third-party insurance?  To do that you would need to take into account (a) that insurance companies now have a captive market and only have to compete against other members of their cartel, rather than against the option of going uninsured, and will just take part of the new pool as increased profit, (b) that the newly forcibly insured are likely to increase their number of medical visits, running up health care costs in general, (c) that the newly forcibly insured will agree to all kinds of high end tests they wouldn't agree to when paying their own way,  (d) that improved access to health care could lower the rate of cheap early deaths, thus increasing the number of expensive later deaths, (e) paying through a third party in aggregate must always be less efficient than direct fee for service, due to admin costs and profit margin, (f) etc etc. 

 

The current estimates I've seen are that 3-5% of the total health care expenditures go toward "free riders"; however, I don't believe that you'll magically see your premium go down by that amount if this goes through.  I'm betting it won't go down at all.

I can quantify the benefit of having basic catastrophic

(#277786)

insurance coverage for myself, which is essentially what EMTALA provides for free. I could also quantify the cost to hospitals of providing EMTALA coverage each year. There's a specific, direct financial benefit to me, and liability/cost to health care providers.

 

Very, very few people in the country could truly self-insure for catastrophic treatments, so everyone else paying fee-for-service would still be getting something (catastrophic/emergency coverage) for nothing. 

 

Agreed that ACA might lead to more overall health spending, but don't forget that it will also recoup a fat 10-20% or so of "Medical Loss Ratio" funds that private insurers today simply stick into their pockets. Under ACA, insurers are capped at 15-25% MLR, and must refund any overages to their policyholders. Most private insurers today enjoy MLRs of 25-75%, depending on group and policy.

 

Back to brake lights. I think it would be impossible to quantify the actual financial benefit of federal safety regs to everyone in the country...DOT can provide statistics, but if those statistics require inferences connecting them to, say, me sitting in my apartment on a sunny afternoon, then SCOTUS isn't going to allow you to claim that there's commerce between me & the truckers. In any case, truckers are also federally required to carry liability insurance, so any *actual* damages caused by burned out brake lights are in fact paid for in other ways. 

M Aurelius was probably right.

Let's say you can come

(#277788)

up with a market value for catastrophic-only coverage.  Let's suppose this problem (created by Congress) needs to be solved, and that's the motivation for the mandate.  Strangely enough,  the mandate doesn't permit catastrophic-only coverage.  In fact, it quite specifically mandates many things that don't belong in a "risk" pool since they are entirely predictable.  If EMTALA is your justification, shoudn't the mandate only require coverage of events covered by EMTALA?

 

But anyway, I don't see "quantifiable" becoming the magic word.  It's not like you are going to say >$1214 is constitional and <$1214 is not.  As long as it's significant, what's the difference?   And of course,  a year-round food plan is eminently quantifiable, just go to the Schwan's website, so it doesn't get you out of broccoliland.

Ok, we're just going in circles now.

(#277792)

I'm not saying "quantifiable" should be some abstract Commerce Clause test, I'm saying EMTALA hospitals spend a quantifiable amount of money making sure *you* have emergency coverage available. See the difference? This is actual money spent to benefit you in a specific way...it's a market. Also, EMTALA isn't the sole justification for ACA. And finally, we discussed the money-saving value of preventive medicine just a few days ago and here you on again with a "why shouldn't we limit coverage to catastrophic ER care?"

 

Brake lights aren't the same thing, since you can't quantify the benefit to you (and in any case auto liability is handled through insurance).

M Aurelius was probably right.

My general prediction is

(#277655)

based on the fact that Kennedy's jurisprudence seems to be based on two factors:  he can base his opinions on judge-y things like precedent, constitutional text, etc., but then sometimes he likes basking in liberal approval.  Note, after all, that when it comes to social issues--executing molesters and the like--he's more or less always with the liberals.  So it really boils down to whether he figures he'll be seen as a hero or villain based on his decision.

 

 

Yup

(#277687)
HankP's picture

if the conservatives can come up with a non-hackish opinion (which I seriously doubt) he'll sign on with them. If not, he'll go with the liberals.

I blame it all on the Internet

A sincere request for explanation

(#277658)

I would like to understand better the conservative doctrine that a federal prerogative granted under the constitution needs to be limited. Why can't we trust democratic governance to protect us from absurd broccoli laws?

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

The constitution

(#277659)
HankP's picture

states the enumerated powers of the federal government, and the remainder are supposed to be reserved to the states and citizens. Therefore absent a constitutional amendment the feds aren't supposed to be able to pass laws that infringe on state sovereignty outside the areas mentioned in the constitution. The conservatives take this to mean that anything not expressly mentioned in the constitution is therefore immune to federal interference. But that restricted view fails on a couple of points:

 

1. The constitution succeeded the articles of confederation which was an absolute restriction on the feds power to do pretty much anything and it failed miserably - just about bankrupted the country. So any attempt to resurrect it or the views that it embodied goes against the spirit and the letter of the constitution.

 

2. There are many issues that didn't even exist when the constitution was written. Health care was one of them, it really couldn't be called more than slightly informed superstition at the time the constitution was written. Things like advanced weaponry are another (the right to bear arms could include pretty much state of the art weaponry in the late 1700s, but no one would recommend for the private ownership of nuclear weapons today. Well, nobody sane), modern corporations, modern economics, etc.

 

All these issues we face today require the interpretation of how the constitution should be extended to deal with these areas. Don't believe "strict constructionists" or "texturalists" or any other form of constitutional fundamentalism, they interpret as much as anyone else to fit their prejudices. Their interpretations just tend to favor the wealthy and powerful.

I blame it all on the Internet

What I'm hearing

(#277660)

Is that they are conceding that health insurance is interstate commerce, but they feel that that power needs to have a limiting principle. My question is where do they get that need for a limiting principle?

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

A related question

(#277662)

is whether any of the New Deal or Medicare could pass this requirement of a limiting principle. 

 

Can the federal government require all of us to send it 100% our income in return for one piece of broccoli? 

 

No? Then Social Security is unconstitutional! 

They probably

(#277712)

couldn't,  which was why FDR had to engage in the gravest violation of separation of powers since Andrew Jackson to get his way.

 

So now what?

(#277720)

Do you believe Social Security and Medicare should be struck down as unConstitutional?

 

Are principles of Constitutional textualism/originalism/judicial restraint/whatever supposed to trump the benefits of social security and medicare?

Actually

(#277727)

I do understand that the overwhelming majority of people in the country don't want a federal govt limited to it's 1929 scope and size.  Since the majority is in fact overwhelming, the correct (and very feasible) path would be to pass amendment(s) specifically providing for Social Security and similar aid programs.

Or you could try passing an amendment that we now have a unitary republic with all powers that are not specifically prohibited.  But that one would be a lot harder to pass, and would require quite a bit of restructuring of other parts to remove all references to states since there's no point to having states in a unitary republic.

Is the Constitution supposed to trump? Well, yes, by definition, that's what a constitution is.  A supreme law that trumps other laws.

But It's Old And Inconvenient!

(#277730)
M Scott Eiland's picture

That's why it has to be all living and everything, so enlightened people can make it mean whatever they want it to. [/Ezra Klein]

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

But the majority wasn't overwhelming at the time it was passed

(#277736)

So the "correct" position today is to insist that we should retroactively pass Constitutional amendments 80 yrs after the fact, admit that passing the best aspects of our fed government was a mistake and should've been opposed at the time, and steadfastly resist anything like em getting off the ground in the 21st century w/out a constitutional amendment.

 

I think I'd only be tempted by this position if I thought Roe vs. Wade legalized murder and was a natural consequence of holding any alternative approach to the constitution.

 

The incapacity to solve broccoli hypotheticals isn't quite enough motivation.

So what the Supreme Court

(#277812)

Has said the constitution means over the last 80 years means nothing? This is the Glint-in-Clarence-Thomas's-eye theory of constitutionalism.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Never too late to get it right.

(#277818)

Separate-but-equal lasted about 60 years;  are you arguing Brown vs. Board of Education wrongly overturned too many years of precedent?

 

What I'm saying is

(#277857)

Let's wait for them to get it "right" before feeling obligated to correct them with a constitutional amendment.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

As Opposed To What It Said The 80 Years Before That?

(#277838)
M Scott Eiland's picture

I don't see liberals (or all that many conservatives) claiming that the demise of Plessy, Lochner, and Schenck was illegitimate.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

It's a rhetorical trick

(#277673)
HankP's picture

that the SG should have been smart enough to parry by saying "the federal government's job is not to define a limiting principle, that job is the responsibility of this Court. Our only job is to show why we think this particular law is constitutional, we're not responsible for justifying or not justifying all future laws that may or may not be passed by congress".

I blame it all on the Internet

Brought the question upon themselves.

(#277702)

You are correct but left out the part where, after being asked why they think the law is constitutional, the govt came up with an argument that sounded suspiciously like "because of the Commerce Clause, and all human activity and inactivity is interstate commerce" after all the irrelevant distractors were stripped off.

 

The justices quite rightly pointed out that such an interpretation would make the rest of section enumerating powers meaninglesss. It would also invalidate the 10th Amendment (which was passed after the Commerce Clause) by making it an empty set.

 

Of course the pro-side will claim that they didn't say "all human activity and inactivity" - although your side in Congress did explicitly claim exactly that - but the arguments about passive participation in markets amount to the same thing.  Jordan is making a attempt here but it's still got holes in it.

Irrelevant

(#277711)
HankP's picture

the question assumes that there won't be a court in the future to adjudicate this very point. The current court can't bind future courts, just as the current legislature can't bind future legislatures. The extent of this case is the law itself and the arguments made by both sides. If the feds make awful arguments (and some of them were) that means they didn't present the case well, but it shouldn't change what's constitutional and what isn't. Especially given the precedents like Gonzales v Raich (which, by the way, demolishes the activity/inactivity talking point) that several of the current sitting justices ruled on. What the conservatives are signaling (like they did in Bush v Gore) is that they'll find whatever reasons they need to on a case by case basis depending on which party benefits. In other words, doing exactly what conservatives claim liberal justices do. The only difference is that conservatives don't have any evidence of liberals doing so.

I blame it all on the Internet

Lemme translate and simplify

(#277716)

to make it more obvious:

 

SG: "This act is really, really constitutional, your honors."

SC: "Fine. What section?"

SG: "The Everything Clause!"

SC: "But there isn't an Everything Clause. You need to name a clause that's actually there."

SG: "OK. The Commerce Clause. That's the one I meant."

SC: "But that's not an Everything Clause."

SG: "I never said it was! What I meant was, buying stuff is commerce, and not buying stuff is commerce"

SC: "That sounds like Everything.  We already told you, you can't have Everything."

HP: <jumping in> "This isn't fair!  It's not the poor SG's job to say what commerce is,  it's your job!."

SC: "Fair enough, we'll decide. Not buying stuff isn't commerce.  You lose."

Let's try this

(#277722)
HankP's picture

SG: "This act is constitutional, your honors."

SC: "Fine. What section?"

SG: "The Commerce Clause"

SC: "But the Commerce Clause doesn't covere everything."

SG: "True, but in Gonzales v Raich the court cited the mere possibility that one could be pulled into interstate trade as justification"

SC: "But that's not an Everything Clause."

SG: "Of course not, but we've shown that individuals don't even have to be pulled into interstate commerce, they're in it already."

SC: "That sounds like Everything.  We already told you, you can't have Everything."

SG: " Once again, in Gonzales the court stated

 

the diversion of homegrown marijuana tends to frustrate the federal interest in eliminating commercial transactions in the interstate market in their entirety. In both cases, the regulation is squarely within Congress' commerce power because production of the commodity meant for home consumption, be it wheat or marijuana, has a substantial effect on supply and demand in the national market for that commodity.

 

We'd make the following substitutions:

 

the diversion of homegrown marijuana presence of uninsureds who must nonetheless be given medical treatment tends to frustrate the federal interest in eliminating regulating commercial transactions in the interstate market in their entirety. In both cases, the regulation is squarely within Congress' commerce power because production of the commodity meant for home consumption, be it wheat or marijuana, the uncompensated use of health care services has a substantial effect on supply and demand in the national market for that commodity those services.

 

SC: "Precedent be damned, even if Scalia and Kennedy agreed with it. We don't like this act because it was passed by Democrats."

I blame it all on the Internet

I glad we agree

(#277731)

that Gonzalez v Raich was an awful decision.   Let's add it to Dred Scott and Plessy v Ferguson on the list of precedents that were rightfully overturned. 

I don't hold out much hope that Scalia and Kennedy will see the error of their ways.  The best outcome that looks possible would be for Scalia and Kennedy to make some activity/inactivity distinction, and for the other "conservatives" to write a concurring opinion stating that they'd overturn Raich as well.

But the problem is

(#277738)
HankP's picture

it was only 7 years ago and reinforced Lopez and Morrison, in fact it was part of a long term trend. Doesn't it strike you as being kind of arbitrary that this law, the ACA, gets struck down after such a full throated defense of congress to regulate by Scalia and Kennedy? Doesn't it look like the most blatant partisan hackery, or does precedent just not mean anything anymore?

 

I don't think Kennedy will have the balls to reverse himself so radically. I doubt that will bother Scalia.

I blame it all on the Internet

Hackery

(#277742)

probably but it's better to get it hackishly right than consistently wrong.

I was wondering

(#277743)
HankP's picture

did you ever hear of the Militia Act of 1792? Specifically the section that states:

 

That every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of power and ball; or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch, and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder; and shall appear so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise or into service, except, that when called out on company days to exercise only, he may appear without a knapsack. That the commissioned Officers shall severally be armed with a sword or hanger, and espontoon; and that from and after five years from the passing of this Act, all muskets from arming the militia as is herein required, shall be of bores sufficient for balls of the eighteenth part of a pound; and every citizen so enrolled, and providing himself with the arms, ammunition and accoutrements, required as aforesaid, shall hold the same exempted from all suits, distresses, executions or sales, for debt or for the payment of taxes."

 

So even the second Congress had no problem with forcing citizens to buy a product from a private business. Was that unconstitutional? It was signed by George Washington and you might want to peruse the members of the second Congress, it appears that most of the founding fathers who would find the ACA so abhorrent were members.

I blame it all on the Internet

The Militia Act of 1792

(#277754)
Jay C's picture

Was obviously a case of special-interest legislation: it was most likely passed after extensive lobbying by the Spontoon Cartel....

 

It's interesting, Hank: but this particular set of requirements (ordinance parameters aside) doesn't quite correlate with the healthcare/ACA/mandate issue for a couple of reasons:

 

1. The 1792 Act doesn't actually require a purchase: it merely says that each militiaman shall "provide" himself with a firearm meeting certain standards: presumably, if an enrollee already had a shootin'-iron that met the requirements, that would count: only those men without the requisite armament would have to buy one.

 

2. The Act was not really national legislation, in the sense we would think of it: while it allocates specific authority to the Federal Government (in the person of the President), the organization and administration (and presumably, though it doesn't, AFAICT, mention it, the payment) of these milita formations is left to the several States.

 

3. Left unsaid here (and unmentioned in the wiki) is what sort of enforcement mechanisms the Militia Act contained. While it calls for the "enrollment" of all able-bodied white males 18-45, and their requirement to equip themselves as specified, it doesn't state what penalties accrue (either for State officials/officers, or the "conscripts") for non-compliance, either in ducking the enrollment process, or in failing to meet equipment standards.

 

It is an instructive example of the federal government's longstanding authority to issue "mandates" (and one has to assume that the Militia Act was held to be constitutional): but not, IMO, a parallel.

 

In order

(#277770)
HankP's picture

1. Sophistry. Unless you think it permits theft, there's no other way to get the materials required. The fact that you may have already purchased some or all of them doesn't matter - how many people complaining about the ACA already have insurance?

 

2. Passed by Congress, signed by the President, but it's not national legislation? Forces the states to follow certain procedures? Sure you want to argue how that's different than the ACA?

 

3. Makes it even worse for the purposes of comparison, at least the ACA defines various non-compliance results.

I blame it all on the Internet

I dunno Hank

(#277774)

Per #3, I think Jay C's point is that the two laws aren't entirely comparable.  Specifically, that the militia act doesn't appear to have a punitive clause that applies to the mandated purchase of a firearm.  IOW it's a well written and very official wish.  The same doesn't appear to be the case with ACA.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

No two laws are exactly comparable

(#277798)
HankP's picture

or they'd be the same law. But this strikes at the heart of the "federal government forcing me to buy something" line of argument.

I blame it all on the Internet

Jay C, a better link was on the wiki page

(#277773)

http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm


Ahem.  Ahem!!!  Here ye to all who presents greetings, be it known that....blah blah blah


That every officer, non-commissioned officer or private of the militia, who shall fail to obey the orders of the President of the United States in any of the cases before recited, shall forfeit a sum not exceeding one year's pay, and not less than one month's pay, to be determined and adjudged by a court martial; and such officers shall, moreover, be liable to be cashiered by sentence of a court martial: [words added in 1795:] and be incapacitated from holding a commission in the militia, for a term not exceeding twelve months, at the discretion of the said court: and such non-commissioned officers and privates shall be liable to be imprisoned by the like sentence, or failure of payment of the fines adjudged against them, for the space of one calendar month for every five dollars of such fine.


This is the punitive clause but the wording suggests it's for disobeying the orders of the Prez, not for not buying a musket or rifle. 


 

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

You might be looking at the wrong section of the law.

(#277776)

Chap. ⅩⅩⅩⅢ.—An Act more effectually to provide for the National Defence by establishing an Uniform Militia throughout the United States.

 

Sec. 7. And be it further enacted, Rules of discipline. That the rules of discipline, approved and established by Congress in their resolution of the twenty-ninth of March, one thousand seven hundred and seventy-nine, shall be the rules of discipline to be observed by the militia throughout the United States, except such deviations from the said rules as may be rendered necessary by the requisitions of this act, or by some other unavoidable circumstances. It shall be the duty of the commanding officer at every muster, whether by battalion, regiment, or single company, to cause the militia to be exercised and trained agreeably to the said rules of discipline.

That section would seem to enforce the rifle/equipment requirement by making it subject to the 1792 Federal Rules of Discipline, which seem to have simply incorporated a similar Massachusetts code (Steuben's Regulations). These provided among other things that if a soldier (or militiamen) reported for duty without the proper uniform and equipment such as a "fword", whatever that might be, that soldier would be subject to military discipline. 

 

In other words, failing to acquire yourself a fword could result in feriouf confequenfef.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Jordan, you are implying I have made a mistake...

(#277790)

...better men have died for less.  Ok, maybe they just found dog poo in their mailbox but pay they did and dearly so.


I'm not getting the same sense of 'discipline' that you seem to be.  Search 'theft' and you get a 'offender...punifhed' but nothing like that in the remainder of that very difficult to read document.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Well, military discipline at the time was pretty harsh

(#277794)

as I understand it, compared to now. I don't see specific punishments (or punifments) for failing to bring specific equipment, but in an army where one could be 'flogged merfilessly' for 'raifing one's eyebrowf' at a commanding officer's 'pronounced idiocies', it's hard to believe you could report for duty with no equipment and suffer no consequences at all.

 

Point being, it looks like military discipline was meant to enforce the equipment requirements.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I think Jordan's correct here

(#277784)
Jay C's picture

...and Darth, at #277774. Of course, knowing that one of my fellow obessives Forvmoids would bring it up, I DID read over the original text from Wikisource. It does appear that the courts-martial and fining provisions (and the "federalization" of the enforcement thereof by making Federal marshals responsible for collecting said fines, if necessary) refer to adherence to orders while on duty - and the general application of military regulations and discipine to the militia companies - no references AFAICT to any penalties for failing to enrol, or providing of equipment.

 

ETA: Fun Fact I hadn't known before: there is a current US Army Manual Of Arms for the Espontoon - though it's not used in combat, much....

Where In That Language. . .

(#277758)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .does it specify that the items in question have to be purchased from anyone in particular, or from anyone at all for that matter?

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

If you own a coal mine, an iron mine, and a chromite mine,

(#277762)

a lead mine, a goodly stand of trees, and have ready access to sulphur, saltpetre, a charcoal burning mill, a steel mill, a machine shop and a woodshop, a cotton field or two with a gin and textile mill, sources for nitric & hydrochloric acid, and of course plenty of fresh water, you can probably make your own flintlock musket without buying anything from anybody.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Are you suggesting that it mandates theft?

(#277768)
HankP's picture

because that's the only alternative to purchasing items of this sort as far as I know. Maybe if you happen to have a friend or relative who gives you whatever you ask for, but I have a hard time believing that was more common then than it is now.

I blame it all on the Internet

Inheritance.

(#277793)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

A musket would have been a typical household chattel of the sort passed on in the estate.

To the eldest son of...8-12 children? -nt-

(#277796)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Covered

(#277797)
HankP's picture

in the "gift" category, although you'll notice that there were specific characteristics of the arms and supplies listed, so I think it's reasonable to imply that many if not most people had to buy something.

I blame it all on the Internet

The Militia Act

(#277767)

was passed under the clauses allowing Congress to create an army, a navy, and call out the militia.    Good luck getting the ACA passed under those clauses.

I don't see

(#277769)
HankP's picture

where any of the clauses are considered superior to any of the other ones. If you can mandate for one there's nothing that says that you can't mandate for another.

I blame it all on the Internet

The key words are "necessary and proper"

(#277771)

A militia, even in 1792, had to have firearms.   It's possible to have "commerce among the states" and to regulate said commerce without an insurance mandate, and in fact, we've had interstate commerce for 200+ years, which tends to show that the mandate wasn't necessary, and still isn't, unless something specific happened very recently that will make it impossible to regulate commerce unless this mandate is passed.

 

PS If people on your side start pointing out that there are other, less constitutionally suspect ways to accomplish regulation of interstate commerce in health insurance - namely, single payer - that would tend to defeat the argument that the mandate is "necessary".

 

PPS If you are fond of comparisons to other countries, we can compare how many have found it "necessary" to have an individual insurance mandate vs how many have found it "necessary" for their armed forces to have weapons.

 

I don't think that means what you think it does

(#277778)
HankP's picture

"Necessary and Proper" doesn't mean that there's no other way to accomplish the same thing, it means that it's part of a sceme to implement the regulations that congress has passed as long as such regulations are within the sphere of allowed congressional action. Regulating the national market for health care and health care insurance is permissable under the commerce clause.In other words it allows for congress to require things that aren't necessarily within their enumerated powers in order to accomplish regulation that is within their enumerated powers.

 

You're calling for the court to second guess congress on how to regulate interstate commerce, which is considered extreme judicial activism (unless Republicans do it).

I blame it all on the Internet

Again, gaming

(#277782)

the definition of words.  I suspect if a law said deadly force was allowable if it was "necessary" for self-defense, and some guy named Zimmerman said chasing down people and killing them was part of his "scheme" to defend himself, you wouldn't buy it.  For an action to be a "necessary", the scheme at least has to be reasonable, proportionate, and directed primarily toward the valid end. 

 

Seizing control of an ever increasing fraction of individual's aftertax income to make sure they spend it in ways that benefit insurance companies (and in the future, other industries that are major political donors) doesn't strike me as meeting the requirement.

 

I also suspect that you'd change your definition of "commerce" if a landlord kept your 12-month lease payment, but locked you out of the apartment starting on day one, because the lease prohibits engaging in a commercial activities from the apartment, and commerce is anything reachable under the commerce clause.

 

The usual counterargument is that words in the constitution have special term-of-art definitions, ignoring the fact that those special definitions are disingenuous and were created for the sole purpose of evading the plain meaning.

 

 

 

Not "gaming" unless you consider precedent "gaming"

(#277799)
HankP's picture

these laws and their meanings have been built up over time, you can complain about how they've been interpreted but that doesn't make for much of an argument unless you feel free to discard precedent whenever you feel like it. Sometimes that's justified, but it would be ridiculous to give no weight to precedent at all. For one thing every congressional act and every business decision would have a much larger amount of uncertainty attached to it.

I blame it all on the Internet

Constitutional Scholar

(#277785)

Barack Obama, constitutional scholar:

Overturning the law would be “an unprecedented, extraordinary step” since it was passed by a majority of members in the House and Senate,” he said.

Yeah, those courts should stick to the long-standing precedent of only overturning laws that passed without a majority vote.  I think the next time I need a lawyer,  I'll avoid University of Chicago grads.

 

 

Passed by a "strong" majority,

(#277787)

that is, a Senate supermajority, which may indeed be unprecedented.

 

Anyhow, Obama is putting pressure on the Court. Not entirely sure that's a good idea, but it will certainly have an impact.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Where I Stopped Reading:

(#277789)

"Like it or not, insurance is the prevailing method for covering medical expenses in this country, and if Congress wants to reform the health care market, they have to do it through insurance."


 


 So we're just stuck with the stupidest possible way of dealing with routine healthcare expenses, and it's not even worth looking into alternatives.


 


Sad thing is, you're prob'ly right about the political realities.


 


I think I'll go cultivate my onions and cabbages, and leave clever folk like you to hammer out the details of our subjection.

 

.

Divine Spinoza, forgive me. I have become a fool.

Heh. Why don't you look at the quality of healthcare

(#277791)
mmghosh's picture

to the community provided, historically, when it was truly fee for service only?  Insurance arose for very good reasons.

 

Or in those parts of the world where it still is; you really don't want to go there. Incidentally, Jordan, this is a fine and extremely interesting diary.

If you have a moment between cabbages, vin,

(#277795)

could you quickly list a few alternatives to risk-pool insurance? Just a list, I'm not expecting detailed analysis.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Seems easy enough.

(#277800)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

I will note to begin with that you perhaps inadvertently pulled a bit of a switcheroo on vin.  He says "So we're just stuck with the stupidest possible way of dealing with routine healthcare expenses".  Your question elides that to general alternatives for risk-pool insurance, but the answer to the question varies based on whether you mean "list a few alternatives to risk-pool insurance for all expenses" or "for routine expenses".  Anyway, here are some ideas:

 

1) Pay out of cashflow (for routine expenses only)

2) Forced savings (for long-term care, this amounts to self-insurance)

3) Incentivized savings (pesky mandates!)

4) Catastrophic-expense insurance

5) Single provider covered out of taxes

6) Soylent green

 

These are just a start, I'll see if I can think up some more on the way home.

 

Forced savings is a mandate nt

(#277801)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

Unintentional, I missed the "routine."

(#277802)

If we're talking about ways to pay for everyday medical expenses, then I agree there are plenty of options. I don't agree adding routine checkups & preventive medicine to risk-pool coverage is the "stupidest possible" choice, given that, as health insurers all know full well, preventive care saves a lot of money by catching & treating serious problems before they become well & truly expensive.

 

I wonder if any studies have been done about which method for covering routine expenses is "stupider": risk-pool funding or out-of-pocket spending.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Is this severable?

(#277808)

Is forced purchase of routine checkups severable from forced purchase of risk-pool coverage?   Your justifications for the two don't seem to overlap much.

"Catastrophic-expense insurance?"

(#277809)
mmghosh's picture

That, pretty much, covers everything, no?  

 

One of the impressive features of the NHS is that your insurance cover moves automatically with you when you switch jobs, or stop working for a while, or move house to another country and return - as well as for tourists and so forth.  Single payer has sizeable advantages in this - it frees one up from a whole level of anxiety.  Unless of course, you feel anxiety is stimulative.

Bingo, BG

(#278118)

Jordan, I posted about this at some length, long ago - but it fell dead-born from my keyboard. Why repeat myself?

 

.

Divine Spinoza, forgive me. I have become a fool.

If you agree that insurance is a good way to pay for

(#278121)

major medical expenses, and you're only talking about "routine" coverage, then it makes little difference anyway.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Plaintiff's concessions before the Supreme Court

(#277810)

Found my way to this piece Jonathan Cohn put out on Friday about the extraordinary concessions plaintiffs have made in the Obamacare case. I already knew plaintiffs had admitted Medicare For All would be perfectly constitutional. I also knew - and this seemed to surprise some folks around here - that plaintiffs also held that Congress would be within its rights to compel uninsured people to buy insurance at the moment when they go to get medical treatment.

 

But there are a couple additional wrinkles I hadn't gleaned from the transcripts (and which certainly haven't gotten much news coverage). 

Nobody has said they want to stop government from providing universal access to health care. On the contrary, the plaintiffs have stated that a program like Medicare, in which the government provides citizens with insurance directly, would be clearly constitutional. They’ve also stated that a scheme of compulsory private insurance would be constitutional if somehow the government could make people buy it when they show up at the hospital—suggesting, as Elena Kagan stated, that the only problem with the Affordable Care Act is temporal.

 

Most amazing of all: The plaintiffs have conceded that a universal health insurance program would be constitutional if, instead of penalizing people who decline to get insurance, the government enacted a tax and refunded the money to people who had insurance. As Sonia Sotomayor noted, functionally such a scheme would be exactly the same as the Affordable Care Act. Both the plaintiffs and some of the skeptical justices have also indicated that the Affordable Care Act would be constitutional if the law's architects had simply used the word "tax" to describe the penalty.

Holy. Crap. So Congress can tax everyone and offer a credit for those who carry insurance, and that would be perfectly fine, hunky dory no problem. But ask everyone to get insurance and tax everyone who doesn't? A functionally identical scheme just using different words for the exact same transactions is a novel and dangerous example of Congressional overreach?

M Aurelius was probably right.

Not even remotely identical

(#277816)

Look, I know a standard insult from the larger-government-party is that the only thing their opponents care about is money,  but it's just flat not true that any two actions with the same financial end result are "identical". Although, to be fair, I can understand how someone whose mindset is driven by envy might think everything's about the dollars.

 

"would be constitutional if the law's architects had simply used the word "tax" to describe the penalty."

 

But they didn't, and they didn't because a new tax - a strongly regressive tax BTW - likely wouldn't get a majority.  I'd say a bill that wouldn't even pass is hardly "identical" to one that's actually enacted. 

 

Aside from the attempt to evade democratic accountability, there is also the issue that a mandate requires people to take additional, and possibly complex, action, while a tax funded program happens whether you get up off the couch or not.  This is a serious difference for people who don't speak English, don't have Internet, have mental difficulties, lack proper ID, e.g groups the pro-ACA types normally claim to care about when it comes to Voter ID and such things.  I'm against Voter ID requirements, but getting ID is nowhere near as complicated as negotiating an insurance package.

 

And finally the main issue for me - blurring the distinction between private and public,  and between what is the government's and what is the individual's.  Don't try to claim that there isn't a long standing precedent - much longer than the existence of the US - that the govt takes its share and spends it however it likes, and the citizen keeps the rest and spends it the way he wants.  There are political and economic incentives keeping the govt from making its share 100%,  and the mandate is an attempt to get around these and take control of both portions.

 

Not even close to being the same, and my estimation of Sotomayor's intelligence just dropped a good bit.

 

I read two oral transcripts recently

(#277817)

She came across as smarter than Scalia in both of them, and no one came across better. YMMV.

 

And nice try working the envy thing in as a motivation for being indifferent to a [i]regressive[/i] tax. 

 

Don't make me pull out the dunce graph again.

I had to do it.

(#277819)

You just weren't engaging.

 

She's better than I thought she'd be, but the "identical remark" is stupid. 

 

BTW, how did you like the Supremes taking another piece out of the 4th amendment today?  The "conservatives" look pretty bad in this decision.  I think we should honor them with some new po#n terminology: the Kennedy Spread.

That's disgusting

(#277821)

And you wonder why I wasn't engaging.

The Foreign Law In That Case Would Be From Sweden, Ja?

(#277843)
M Scott Eiland's picture

]:-)

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

The mandate gets us to 100% taxation?

(#277822)
HankP's picture

Do tell!

I blame it all on the Internet

Opposite

(#277823)

It's not politically feasible to get much past the 50% point on taxation.  The mandate is an attempt to keep calling the rest of the money "yours" but in fact dictate how you spend a substantial part of it.

Not seeing it

(#277824)
HankP's picture

you're implying that there's an incredibly slippery slope here, but it took about a hundred years just to get this compromise health care bill passed. I'm not seeing any other candidates on the horizon.

 

Besides, in a decade or so the US will finally wake up and implement universal health care just like the rest of the civilized world.

I blame it all on the Internet

One Of Those Paragraphs Does Not Belong With The Other -nt-

(#277841)
M Scott Eiland's picture

.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Eeyn, you're not getting it.

(#277853)

Aside from the attempt to evade democratic accountability, there is also the issue that a mandate requires people to take additional, and possibly complex, action, while a tax funded program happens whether you get up off the couch or not. This is a serious difference for people who don't speak English, don't have Internet, have mental difficulties, lack proper ID, e.g groups the pro-ACA types normally claim to care about when it comes to Voter ID and such things. I'm against Voter ID requirements, but getting ID is nowhere near as complicated as negotiating an insurance package.

There is functionally zero difference between a tax on everyone with an "insurance credit" and a penalty that can be waived with an "insurance credit". One is no more onerous than the other. As a taxpayer you're still going to make a decision to either pay for health coverage and take a tax reduction, or say screw it and pay the tax/penalty. (Leave aside for the moment that the IRS can't even take collection action against the penalty, a heyday for sovereign citizens & tax protesters.) They are identical...collections the same, assessments the same, filing requirements the same, proof-of-coverage documentation the same. The difference between calling the mandate a tax and calling it a penalty amounts to a) semantics and b) a couple of lines on your 1040.

Don't try to claim that there isn't a long standing precedent - much longer than the existence of the US - that the govt takes its share and spends it however it likes, and the citizen keeps the rest and spends it the way he wants. There are political and economic incentives keeping the govt from making its share 100%, and the mandate is an attempt to get around these and take control of both portions.

Yes, this is absolutely true. If you completely ignore everything in the diary and comments so far. If the mandate represented a novel congressional power, then I'd want it limited too (i.e. the health insurance market is unique argument). If, as I've been saying until I'm blue in the face...seriously dude, frickin blue like that gum-chewing girl in Willy Wonka...if it's merely an attempt to regulate existing commerce (to compel people to pay for a service they already receive), then there is in fact no controversy at all. Just Randy Barnett's very, very effective attempt to confuse everyone.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I agree that the mandate is wrong

(#277859)

And finally the main issue for me - blurring the distinction between private and public,  and between what is the government's and what is the individual's.

 

This is absolutely true. It's dangerous and my liberal friends don't seem to grasp the potential this has to further a crony capitalist state, the worst of both worlds.

 

On the other hand:

 

Although, to be fair, I can understand how someone whose mindset is driven by envy might think everything's about the dollars.

 

You've got to quit with this envy garbage, and face up to the fact that the mandate is one more very bad idea from the Heritage Foundation, and put into place by Romney. It's not an invention from envious liberals. It's a terrible idea Obama adopted because he did not have the balls or the firepower to go against medical insurers.

 

There is plenty of precedent for government provided health insurance and taxes to fund it, going all the way back to the founders. This is not the product of envy, but of recognition that market incentives were a poor match for healtcare needs, and continue to be.

 

The problem is inherent to the nature of health care, as every other advanced economy has long recognized. It's not a question of envy or socialism. It's a question of pragmatism.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Sorry about the E-word

(#277867)

After the first time it was just chain yanking.  Now that I realize how seriously some people here identify with the Democratic Party I'll try to refer to that organization by its proper name.

 

Don't apologize Eeyn. There's nothing wrong with

(#277870)

pointing out the eeynvy of the eeynvious.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

It's not the same, Rob Van Winkle told me so

(#277826)
brutusettu's picture

Let's say
If (edit: t =tax to cover "mandate fee", d=deduction "mandate fee", F = "mandate fee" H = T)
T*1 - D*1 = 0 (all hunky-dory)
T*1 - D*0 = H (all hunky-dory)
F*1 = T (uh-oh, constitutional problems, the guberment will force us to buy dinosaur trees)
F*0 = 0 (uh-oh constitutional problems, the guberment will force us to buy dinosaur trees) Then T = D = F, but that "T" wouldn't get voted for, so, so it's not identical.(?)

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

I feel like I almost very nearly understood this. -nt-

(#277854)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

It Never Would Have Passed As A Tax

(#277840)
M Scott Eiland's picture

The fact that Democrats who never saw a tax they didn't like wouldn't even try to pass the law that way should have been the clue there.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

So the Democrats pulled a fast one?

(#277852)

Is that now unconstitutional? If they'd structured the penalty as a tax on everyone, but called it a "Treasury Donation," should the court strike it down?

 

Point being, the difference between the mandate as a penalty and the mandate as a tax amount to a couple of lines on your 1040. Otherwise, the assessments are the same, collections are the same, filing requirements are the same including proof-of-coverage, budget impact is the same, etc. etc. 

 

The court is on the verge of inventing a brand new constitutional limit based on semantic distinctions so fine nobody can quite articulate what they are.

M Aurelius was probably right.

It's A Very Clear Distinction

(#277858)
M Scott Eiland's picture

If Congress wants to avail itself of the constitutionally unassailable power to tax us without (much) limit, they have to call the thing in question a tax. The cost to this is the admission that it's a tax, with the political consequences that implies--and I have no hesitation in asserting that the law would not have passed if that penalty had been structured as a tax instead.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Whether it would pass is irrelevant

(#277860)

(Although I think you're wrong that such a detail would have derailed the bill.) Jordan's point, I believe, is that the court is overriding the will of Congress on a purely semantic distinction.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

And Meanwhile

(#277865)

the Court has a long history of ruling based on the real world effects of law (de facto) and not merely its language (de jure).

Yes but that's not a constitutional question.

(#277861)

A lot of laws would not have passed if they had been brought to a vote with different names, but Congress is free to call laws and parts of laws whatever the hell it wants to. Certainly the court has no business getting involved in political semantics.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Not If It Would Pass Muster Under One Category But Not Another

(#277873)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Any ambiguity is on the idiots who incompetently assembled the legislation.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Cancelling some more sections?

(#277879)

There are multiple places in the constitution where restrictions are placed on revenues and expenditures,  including restrictions on which house of Congress can originate a revenue bill.

 

No one doubts that tax is revenue.  What's your opinion on the mandate - revenue, or not revenue?  You've endorsed Sotomayor's opinion that it's "identical" to a tax, so presumably you think private exchanges of money for insurance will now be counted on the books as revenues and expenditures? 

[Ezra Klein]

(#277882)
M Scott Eiland's picture

*whiny voice* But it's old and gets in the waaaaaaay! [/Ezra Klein]

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

"Revenue" going through a gov't middle man

(#277885)
brutusettu's picture

is required to be constitutional?

tax/revenue, synonyms, but not exactly the same.....and back to the arms mandate of the 2nd congress.

Is there a paradox where someone cannnot possibly sleep in a van down by the river, because by definition, a van is a vehicle, and people drive vehicles?

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

The mandate is obviously revenue...it's included

(#277905)

as revenue for CBO scoring. I'll say it again, aside from semantics there is absolutely no difference between imposing a tax that exempts policyholders vs. imposing a penalty on non policyholders. 

M Aurelius was probably right.

Courtwatching - 5th circuit

(#277875)

"The issue arose when a lawyer for the Justice Department began arguing before the judges. Appeals Court Judge Jerry Smith immediately interrupted, asking if DOJ agreed that the judiciary could strike down an unconstitutional law.

 

The DOJ lawyer, Dana Lydia Kaersvang, answered yes -- and mentioned Marbury v. Madison, the landmark case that firmly established the principle of judicial review more than 200 years ago, according to the lawyer in the courtroom.

 

Smith then became "very stern," the source said, telling the lawyers arguing the case it was not clear to "many of us" whether the president believes such a right exists. The other two judges on the panel, Emilio Garza and Leslie Southwick--both Republican appointees--remained silent, the source said.

 

Smith, a Reagan appointee, went on to say that comments from the president and others in the Executive Branch indicate they believe judges don't have the power to review laws and strike those that are unconstitutional, specifically referencing Mr. Obama's comments yesterday about judges being an "unelected group of people."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504564_162-57408827-504564/appeals-court-fires-back-at-obamas-comments-on-health-care-case/

 

They don't even pretend not to be politicians anymore ...   

*smirks*

(#277877)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Ah, the sinestrosphere has its new hate object for the month.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

If he's targeted

(#277881)

I hope he eventually figures out that he's supposed to stay above the political fray.

 

Or perhaps this will escalate and the rest of the intemperate Republican political activists in the judiciary can identify themselves so everyone can gauge the extent of the problem.  

Seems perfectly reasonable

(#277884)

for a judge to ask an attorney if he/she believes the court has jurisdiction/authority over the case, especially when the party the attorney represents has made public statements casting doubt on the issue.  It's also reasonable to make them put it in writing.

No, it's idiotic

(#277886)
HankP's picture

would you be so sanguine if a liberal justice assigned a conservative attorney to write a report on how the commerce clause has no activity/inactivity distinction since Raich v Gonzales? It's stupid and petty, which is why Republicans will love it.

I blame it all on the Internet

Interesting analogy

(#277890)

you've made: Obama's DOJ is to judicial review of laws as conservative is to an expansive commerce clause.  Think about that.

 

But in any case, the liberal judge in your example would be asking the conservative attorney to argue the other side's case.  In this instance, the executive branch questioned whether the court had jurisdiction to rule on the constitutionality of laws*.  Judge Smith, being properly deferential to the executive branch, wouldn't want to go ruling where he has no jurisdiction, so naturally he wants the question to be settled before the case gets heard.

 

*I fully realize the President was just running his mouth, but you wouldn't want judges sorting through the President's words and deciding which are official and which are just trash talk, would you?  That would be....activism.

OK, I thought you were serious at first

(#277891)
HankP's picture

now I can tell you're just trolling.

I blame it all on the Internet

I kind of like

(#277894)

sarcastic judges,  admittedly more when they're on my side. 

 

I don't know if you've been around judges much

(#277919)
HankP's picture

but they really don't need their delusions of godhood indulged any more than they already are.

I blame it all on the Internet

By The Same Token. . .

(#277921)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .sneering in public at people with lifetime tenure and power over things one finds important is kind of deeply stupid if you believe they're likely to notice.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

It shouldn't matter

(#277922)
HankP's picture

if judges followed their oaths and didn't have the emotional responses of pre teens.

I blame it all on the Internet

Perhaps

(#277923)
M Scott Eiland's picture

But I've seen no evidence that intemperate behavior from the bench is the province of one party more so than another--and those* who attack judges expecting them not to ever respond are both foolish and undeserving of sympathy.

*--no one here, of course. (TM)

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

I never said it was

(#277927)
HankP's picture

you'll notice I mentioned judges in general.

I blame it all on the Internet

Pisst*** I Don't Really Want to Weigh in On Judges....

(#277924)

 

...because I'm way too hot over this topic anyway...

 

But, as a secret, Judge's can be crazy as hell...I mean really! You couldn't believe some of the things trial judges say from the bench, (I have no experience with appellate judges).

 

I could tell stories, but I let it all go in the sake of good will and comity.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

Dude, They're Almost All Lawyers

(#277925)
M Scott Eiland's picture

I mean, I don't know about you, but I've met a lot of lawyers, and more than the usual percentage of them are @$$#oles. How could judges be any different as a group? Democrats should stop complaining about the ones who push back visibly--I'd be more worried about the ones who smirk and walk away while remembering that old saying about revenge being a dish best served cold.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Not my experience

(#277929)
HankP's picture

I work with a lot of attorneys, and almost all of them have been decent to me, and as far as I can tell to their staff as well. There are always exceptions, of course.

I blame it all on the Internet

Oh, and BTW that's never stopped Republicans before nt

(#277969)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

As I understand

(#278630)

the court has already voted on this, so there's no decision to influence.  For some reason we don't know what they've decided until they publish a bunch of opinions at once.

Votes Aren't Set In Stone

(#278632)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Until the opinions are written and Justices sign on to one or more than one, the game isn't over (of course, if seven to nine Justices are on one side of the issue, a reversal of the original conference vote is rather unlikely).

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

So what's the purpose of the conference vote?

(#278656)

Also how much deliberation do the justices do down the road? Do they share drafts of opinions? Do they argue out finer points in small groups? Do they go on field trips together? I know zippity about what goes on behind the robe (and not sure I want to know).

 

Are there people close to the justices who can lobby them? I.e. is there a court lobby? Surely there must be, however unseemly it sounds.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Yes, They Pass Around Draft Opinions

(#278666)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Personally lobbying Justices about an upcoming or currently being deliberated case is considered verboten. There are a lot of books out there that discuss the interaction, with varying degrees of gossip about the Justices themselves mixed in--the one that first got me interested in the law as a subject was The Brethren, which was written back before Bob Woodward started sourcing his books via coma patients. The conference vote tells everyone where the others stand, but brilliant or incompetent opinion writing has been known to change the result before it is released to the public.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Any numbers on that?

(#278669)
HankP's picture

As in how many 5-4 decisions have been reversed after the initial vote?

I blame it all on the Internet

No Way To Know

(#278672)
M Scott Eiland's picture

They don't keep internal records on it, so all we have is anecdotal evidence. The Brethren describes a few incidents where it happened, and I suspect other "inside the Court" books do as well. The point to be derived from this is that the result is not set in stone at the conference, particularly if one or more of the Justices are uncertain in their personal reasoning.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Naw, the judge brought it up in an unrelated context,

(#277896)

micharacterized/straw-manned Obama's statement, and was basically politicking. He wasn't seeking 'clarification', this was political pushback.

 

If you have to pretend you're an idiot who doesn't understand what the judge was doing in order to defend him, it's a sign that he probably shouldn't have responded to a politician in like manner.

Did you

(#277898)

notice that shortly afterward the Prez walked back his remarks?

 

Of course it was pushback,  but so what?  Judicial review is important and quite a few politicians,  probably more Republicans than Democrats,  have tried to delegitimize it.  Calling down a few DOJ lawyers and rubbing their nose it every few years is a good corrective measure.

 

BTW thanks for assuming I was pretending.

C'mon

(#277899)

Obama wasn't doing anything like questioning judicial review.

 

To conservatives who are relishing the sight of the bench being politicized: enough with this "you started it!" crap. Both sides are going to have to drink the soup that's being pissed in.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

News Flash: Republicans now like piss in soup

(#277900)
HankP's picture

because liberals don't like it.

I blame it all on the Internet

So judges should act like politicians?

(#277902)

And respond to political pressure by politicking? 

 

That kind of response is only justified in extraordinary circumstances and this clearly wasn't one of them.

 

What we've got here instead is a federal judge who was very eager to jump off the bench and enter the political arena.

 

I'm just pointing out he got sh%t on his shoe in the process.

Mr. Traveller is Not Amused...Not One Whit...

(#277904)

 

...Ms. Dana Lydia Kaersvang must refuse to write this essay.

 

As a matter of being a Lawyer, a Citizen, an Honorable person, she must politiely refuse on Thursday and risk contempt.

 

She has no choice.

 

There's nothing here to talk about...the Court's action is beyond its power, as I think about it. It may rule against the DOJ on whatever case and issues are before it...the Court may not require such an essay from any Lawyer...DOJ or whoever.

 

Traveller

I bet you are just SHOCKED....

(#277906)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

...at all this gambling going on in here.  Newsflash, catch, all high level governmental activity is political.  Do you think that asshole Roosevelt was trying to pack the court for fun? :^)

I Most Strongly Disagree...These New Currents and Stains...

(#277911)

...emanating from the Judiciary are terrible, and terrible for the Republic...it is very much coming to seem like per-collapse Rome when the Courts were equally corrupted by politics and money.

 

This is all just so terrible.

 

Now then...re your Roosevelt example and the famous "Switch in Time that Saved Nine..."

 

What you are missing is that Roosevelt was a politician, doing politics and, even Court packing if done by Constitutional means...was entirely proper....was in fact his job.

 

This is not true for the Supreme Court or any Courts. They are to be shielded and free from the winds of political pressures...this is the entire rationale for their life time appointment.

 

That they are human and therefore inherently subject to and part of politics may be true...but they must remain above politics or, at least attempt to maintain the fiction that they are. As with many social institutions, the appearance is more important than the reality...

 

I am not shocked by the Gambling...I am shocked that they would put it out for public display and so bring the Court down into dirt and grime of the political arena and therefore eventual disrepute.

 

This is really terrible.

 

No joke.

 

Traveller

Trav, the entire point....

(#277914)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

....of the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_Procedures_Reform_Bill_of_1937]court packing plan[/url] was to either a) pressure the court into making the desired decisions or b) put enough folks who agreed with the Prez on the court so as to come up with the desired positions.  I do not see where in the entire incident the reality of politics was not on display in any of the branches.  The original court saw X, Roosevelt decided that they were going to see Y (and ultimately managed via the mechanism of appointing people who obviously would vote Y as the inherited members retired.)

I Am Sorry, You are Still Missing the Point...

(#277917)

 

...Roosevelt had the right to introduce legislation to expand the membership on the Court, which had been done as recently as 1869.

 

Roosevelt had the right to do this on purely political rationales.

 

Ultimately, I suppose the Supreme Court would have the right to rule on the Constitutionality of this Legislation....on an objective, non-political basis, even if it severely diluted its power.

 

That is all they could do.

 

I don't understand why you can't get this very, very fundamental distinction of how our Republican form of Government is supposed to work.

 

You understand, don't you?

 

You're just funnin` me?

 

Traveller

 

 

 

 

I get your point.

(#277987)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

My counter-point would be that, in actual practice, the court's behavior is utterly political because it is made up of actual human beings who have political views and who were largely selected for same.  Also because even after selection the executive has levers, in extremis.  Let us take a look:

 

106 Clarence Thomas GA 1948– 1991–present Bush, G. H. W. Currently serving
107 Ruth Bader Ginsburg NY 1933– 1993–present Clinton Currently serving
108 Stephen Breyer MA 1938– 1994–present Clinton Currently serving
109 John G. Roberts MD 1955– 2005–present 2005–present Bush, G. W. Currently serving
110 Samuel Alito NJ 1950– 2006–present Bush, G. W. Currently serving
111 Sonia Sotomayor NY 1954– 2009–present Obama Currently serving
112 Elena Kagan NY 1960– 2010–present Obama Currently serving

 

Do you really mean to claim that those folks all got on there because they won some Judicial version of the Olympics?  Random selection from the available pool, perhaps?  I'm pretty sure I see non-random voting patterns from Every Single One.  And that's what was intended when they were selected, all the kabuki during confirmation aside.  Call a spade a spade.

My counter-point would be

(#277992)

My counter-point would be that, in actual practice,

 

Kinda like in actual practice the fine associated with the Mandate behaves like a tax?

I'll leave it to the justices.

(#278017)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

I'm sure they all have opinions on the subject. Non-political judicial opinions, of course. :^)

I think Traveller's point is that,

(#277995)

while judicial appointments can and probably should be highly politicized, the function of the court should not be political. Everyone expects to see judges bring their own judicial philosophy - which obviously has a conservative/liberal spectrum - to the bench.

 

But nobody wants to see a federal judge turn the courtroom into a device for campaigning against a President, with no legal rationale whatsoever. There is, in other words, a fairly clear line.

M Aurelius was probably right.

is it true that their judicial philsophy

(#277999)

must be tainted by politics? Are the laws and constitution not clear enough to allow a depoliticised reading?

There are several mainstream schools of thought

(#278003)

on constitutional law, some more liberal, some more conservative, all more or less legitimately "judicial" as opposed to nakedly political.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I think you need to clean up your language.

(#277990)

That's a blatant PRV, as well as uncivil. And revealing. You wish your party could show an FDR in its history.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Three points:

(#278016)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

a) Lincoln. I win the pot.

 

b) "You wish your party could show an FDR in its history."  Goodness no!  Winning the war was one thing, politics ends at the shoreline (or so I am told), but the social program was an intrusive and hit-or-miss sort of mess.

 

c) For the a-word, I apologize.  I always figured when I started hearing a word in PG-13 fare it was legal for Forvm use, but I haven't been around for a bit and I certainly won't argue with improved standards.  Consider it replaced with "thimblewit" or Harley's old stand-by "douchebag".

I Worry About the Legitimacy of the Court....

(#278028)

 

...the Supreme Court has for most of its history been conservative. I accept this. However, when the very idea of the rule of law is corrupted by...the a generalized belief it isn't the law that matters but rather politics, and if you say politics, you say money, then the very authority of the Court becomes suspect in the Citizens minds....

 

This is dangerous and if the law is just really an out growth of politics, do we really have to obey it? If the Law is seen as corrupted in its very birth, the Republic is in danger.

 

As a person wanting to see social change, I suppose this should please me as to seeing the social ballasts and institutions that keep the ship of state from running aground is being called into question....but it does not.

 

Legitimacy matters...the Court must be seen as being above the fray...even when it obviously is not. The fiction is more important than the reality.

 

Even Kevin Drumm, the most reasonable of Progressives, is calling the Legitimacy of the Court into question today.

 

This is not a healthy development.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

"This is dangerous and if the law is just really....

(#278029)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

....an out growth of politics, do we really have to obey it"

 

The legitimacy, such as it is, comes from democratic politics.  The institution that wrote the law is, as you note elsewhere, properly concerned with politics.  If politics delegitimizes, then the Law is certainly corrupt before it even gets in front of SCOTUS.  In any case, how can it "be seen as being above the fray...even when it obviously is not"?

 

Taking it a step further, I answer your question thus: “I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.” - RAH

 

There is nothing magical about the the aggregated opinions of your fellow man.  If you agree with the law in question, then legitimacy is moot.  If you do not, the question becomes whether the costs of disobeying outweigh the costs of obeying, taking into account enforcement, the deletrious effects of general lawlessness, etc.  The legitimacy I mention above is the simple one that comes from knowing that a majority of the people you live with or around (or their representatives) believe the law to be a worthwhile one, and that you may expect the institutions they pay for to act as if that is the case.

The Law to You is Subject to a Cost/Benefit Analysis...

(#278047)

...I can't join you there.

 

It is just not in me....and I still believe, even in the face of mounting contrary evidence, in the Majesty of the Law. 

 

For me it is not a matter of concensus at all...even if the vast majority of my fellow citizens disagreed with the Statute...as an Officer of the Court, I would have to respect and operate under its dictates...because it is the law.

 

I can chose to disobey an unjust law, but it is not a cost-benefit question, it one of morals, albeit mine, and individual honor.

 

I'm not bagging on you, Bernard, we just see this very differently.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

 

 

Hey, Trav, we're all friends here.

(#278061)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

I don't expect you to agree with me, I just know I'm correct. :^)  Arguments are not a problem. 

 

But allow me to counter-attack: Do you never speed while driving, or maybe not come to a truly complete stop at signed intersections when nobody is around?  Trivial examples, I know, but they're indicative of what I mean.  People will quite regularly flaunt inconvenient laws, particularly if they are widely seens as irrelevant, easy to break, unimportant as to impact, etc.  Conversely, the experience of occupied Europe under both the Nazis and Communists indiactes that most will put up with all sorts of unjust to downright mostrous laws if the price to be paid for flaunting them is high and likely to be asked for.

I'm usually down with Guerreriste pragmatism,

(#278053)

but I think you got carried away from the topic on this one. 

The legitimacy I mention above is the simple one that comes from knowing that a majority of the people you live with or around (or their representatives) believe the law to be a worthwhile one, and that you may expect the institutions they pay for to act as if that is the case.

A fairly elegant summary of "living constitutionalism" as a legal theory (the law adapts to the polity, not the other way around), which is all fine and good, but we were talking about a case of a federal appeals judge interrupting the business of the court to harangue an attorney about something he read in a newspaper. It's extraordinarily hackish, crazy uncle-type behavior from a high-ranking jurist, wasting fairly damn valuable courtroom time to pull a political stunt. 

 

It isn't kidding ourselves that judges can be somehow "above politics" to ask that they keep completely irrelevant sign-waving to a minimum. 

M Aurelius was probably right.

Carried away from the topic?

(#278062)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

I'm carrying it to new heights!  Why limit ourselves to one silly incident if we can draw all kinds of interesting arguments out of it?

 

Legitimacy matters

(#278060)
HankP's picture

because without it there's no emotional committment to defend and preserve the system. You can see what happened in the USSR, when a minor challenge (compared to the rest of their history) came around the entire edifice crumbled.

I blame it all on the Internet

Legitimacy is Weird, it is Like Magic made Real....

(#278065)

 

 

...there is the historical argument that when Caesar crossed the Rubicon, the Roman Republic was shattered beyond repair. No one knew it yet, but that was to be the truth of it. Caesar and his loyal legions chased all over the Mediterranean to catch Pompey and Cato and the whole Senate...but what he was really trying to catch was their Legitimacy...

 

Power devolved to the sword and the general that controlled the Legions...the Caesar....later the Tsar, the Kaiser, all derivative of his name. I think Caesar was, or wanted to be, a good and a great man. In the end, for all the pardons he granted, for reconstituting the Senate...he knew that he failed in that Legitimacy was always beyond his reach.

 

He created an Empire certainly, but three time the Crown he denied when offered by Anthony, but he wanted the Republic that was forever beyond his regaining.

 

Legitimacy is the most valuable thing a social institution can have.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

 

And like all emotional reactions

(#278070)
HankP's picture

you can't will yourself to feel it. Once it's gone, it's gone.

I blame it all on the Internet

Good question

(#277932)

"why can’t Congress simply ask the Justices advice about constitutionality while drafting bills? Why can’t Congress request a non-binding advisory on provisions that have been questioned by some members or even submit the law to judicial review before it is finally signed?


"...Several states allow their supreme courts to offer advisory opinions at the request of the governor or legislature. It is not uncommon for governors or legislatures to ask their respective Supreme Court to offer advisory opinions about the constitutionality of a bill or a new law.

 

"In addition, some democracies such as France have a system of actual prior review before a bill is signed. After a law is approved by the legislature it can be submitted to prior review to have its constitutionality determined by the Court before it becomes law. This is seen as a way to reduce legal uncertainty and give the same legislature that approved a bill with an unconstitutional provision a chance to quickly fix the problem. There is no need to waste years passing a law, waiting for the high Court to rule, then have a different Congress write a different replacement law and wait several more years for the Court to rule on it."

 

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2012/04/03/why-cant-congress-just-ask-the-supreme-court-ahead-of-time/

 

Mixed feelings on this one

(#277938)

I see the advantage in efficiency,  and if the process was taken seriously it would save us from having to live under unconstitutional laws for years while cases climb the ladder.  But I want to know some details:

 

1. Is it an adversarial review?  Who's there to take the "against" side?  I don't trust the government to pick their own internal devil's advocate,  that's going to get politicized fast,  and being the D'sA against a popular law would be seen as a career killer for a young DOJ employee. 

 

2. If it's not adversarial,  it's biased against the constitution's authority, and the existence of the advisory opinion will in turn bias future "regular" challenges.

 

3. What does "advisory" mean?  If the advice is "don't do it", and Congress does it anyway, then what?  Is Congress supposed to defer to "regular" opinions but not "advisory" ones? 

 

4. Is the court supposed to defer to its own advice?  What if the membership changes between the time of the advice and the time a real case comes up?

 

----

EDIT:  Doesn't Congress already retain it's own legal staff that are supposed to advise them on stuff like constitutionality?  Wonderful job the staff did on the ACA.

I think 'Non-binding' answers 3 and 4

(#277941)

Re 3, SCOTUS would have to make an actual ruling before a law would be struck down.

 

Re 4, non-binding means the advice wouldn't necessarily hold in future. It would probably make sense for the court to defeasibly defer to its previous advice lest that overly compromise the purpose of advising.

 

I suppose we could look to individual states or other countries to see how their systems function in order to make an overall cost-benefit analysis of this proposal. As a libertarian that may strike you as a highly undesirable methodology for forming a political position, but for the life of me I've never been able to figure you people out.

 

You'll have to admit that having SCOTUS review this complex piece of legislation - which is partly already in effect, which took years to pass, and which 1/15th of the economy dedicated to health care is already preparing for - is pretty F'd up.

Yes, I admit

(#277962)

that the situation is F'd up.  We probably differ on who is to blame.

 

I'm willing to look at what other countries do, taking into account that their solutions might not map so well onto our system.  France has a unitary form of government, for example. More importantly, that French description makes it sound like the people involved sincerely want to obey their constitution and actually want advice on how to do so.  Or at least they give it lip service. Things here have degraded to the level that many of the key players don't even pretend to respect it.

Evaluating constitutionality

(#277944)
HankP's picture

can only go by logic and precedent. You can't assume that the court is willing to throw out decades of precedent because they're political hacks.

 

... or maybe that's the kind of analysis one should do with this court.

I blame it all on the Internet

Certainly!

(#277949)

Only logic and precedent - wouldn't want the text to get in the way.

The text is the starting point

(#277954)
HankP's picture

but not the be all and end all. Do you really want every supreme court case to start from scratch and ignore precedent?

I blame it all on the Internet

Precedent

(#277965)

The cool thing about precedents is that you can have new ones, like you did in 1937.  If the Supremes set a new 5-4 precedent finally limiting the commerce power, then I really think your side will need to be very very respectful of that precedent for 75 years, at least :)

 

Seriously, if a previously decided issue comes up, of course the court shouldn't have to rethink it every time.  There are some people, myself included, that want to reverse earlier rulings,  but that's not what the anti-ACA team is asking.  They haven't asked the court to overturn any prior decisions.  What they are claiming is that the ACA is something new that isn't covered by earlier precedents.  The pro-ACA team is claiming that it's just the same old same old (while advertising ACA to the public as bold new progress, of course.)

 

Hm, judicial review's been working pretty well for 209 years.

(#277943)

And by "pretty well" I mean it has generally tended towards making US law more internally consistent, has limited some cases of overreach, and, most important, it hasn't often caused tremendous setbacks or delays by undoing years of legislative work. The court certainly doesn't hold up or set back legislation like the Senate does, so....

 

Judicial review doesn't really seem to need to be more efficient.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I hear what you're saying

(#277960)

Seriously?

(#277976)

Name five pieces of major legislation that were later struck down, where getting the then-current Supreme Court's read would have simplified matters.

 

I think involving the court in legislation would politicize the bench even more than it is today.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Name one piece of major federal legislation

(#277988)

where we were well-served by having SCOTUS strike it down.

 

I can name an important case of federal legislation being struck down where we weren't well-served: http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/102277/child-labor-laws-supreme-cour...

 

Even if SCOTUS doesn't ultimately strike down the mandate, you'll have to admit this situation already has significant costs.

 

Maybe my accounting isn't very good, but the tally so far looks to be in my favor.

 

Another idea I've seen floated, again modeled after some states, is that if SCOTUS is going to strike down federal statutes it should have a 7 judge majority. That way SOCTUS's actions are likely to be bipartisan and it might help de-politicize the court. Right now it's potentially operating as a Republican super-legislature.

 

p.s. I was using your comment as a pre-text to post the Nashville song coz I felt like it - it wasn't all that apt as a response.  

7 judge majority, hah.

(#277993)

If I understand the proposal,  they could decide regular cases by 5-4 but only overturn a federal statute by 7-2.

 

They already know how to bypass restrictions like that - just redefine plain English words and then claim you haven't overturned anything, you just provided an interpretation of some details.   For example, uphold the mandate,  but rule 5-4 that when it granted a religious exemption to the mandate it really just meant any strongly held personal belief.

 

That's been their standard method for 80 years to bypass the requirement that changing the constitution requires approval from 3/4 of the states.

Dred Scott was a 7-2 decision, fwiw. -nt-

(#277994)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

That's what's technically

(#277997)

known as a "strong" majority.   New term I learned yesterday.  Means it can't ever be overturned.  So the Birthers were right all along - he's not a citizen!

The National Industrial Recovery Act

(#277998)
M Scott Eiland's picture

9-0, and thank God for it. Sadly, the cases that made the Commerce Clause a tool of near absolute power would come later.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

The NIRA still would've been struck down

(#278011)

if the requirement were changed to 7 votes to strike down a federal statute.

 

I'm afraid I don't know my history well enough to comment any more about it.

But your constitution

(#277975)

gets an Alice in Wonderland reading so that these laws can be passed.


 


I wouldn't entangle the court any more with  the legislature. There is already a lack of separation of powers due to the nomination process. There is nothing stopping legislators getting some expert opinion on the constitutionality of a law without going to the source. Or indeed from changing the constitution.

I See This as a Failure of Political Courage or Leadership by...

(#277979)

 

..Obama when single payer vs. the Mandate was being debated. He should have either reasoned or demagogueried the question to create enough political pressure to get it through in early 2010 or get a new mid-term congress in 2010, based on this issue alone. I understand that this was not Obama's way, it is not his inclination...or maybe even talent. But Bush-the-lesser was able to rabble rouse a foolish and expensive war in Iraq. I disagreed, but that was his leadership job...Obama has been less successful.

 

He is a compromiser...he made a deal with the Devil accepting the Mandate in lieu of true reform and the Mandate was, I believe a Republican/Heritage Foundation creation.

 

Regardless, he bought this dog, he's got to live with it now.

 

The Supreme Court may reason as it wishes, as is its duty....if overturned, we have to take another run at it.

 

If we can't get a decent bill passed, if we can't marshal sufficient arguments, compelling enough...using class warfare, whatever is necessary, then we lose.

 

The people have chosen...that's the way it is supposed to be.

 

There's no need for magic here...just straight talk, straight thinking, a president with a backbone willing to call a stinking liar a pile of pig's manure.

 

This is all really easy.

 

I am astonished that people don't see simple honesty as the answer to this. Win or lose, you at least would have been a straight shooter.

 

Traveller

 

 

The DOJ Letter (Nicely Played Eric Holder...I Was Wrong)

(#278105)

Attached as a PDF is the Justice Department Letter to the Fifth Circuit of Appeals.

 

As a move in a chess match, this is nice.

 

I would have refused to write the letter....but it really was an opening to further shore up the Government's position on health care.

 

So, well done.

 

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2012/04/us/doj.letter.pdf

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

Looks Like Two-And-A Third Pages To Me

(#278107)
M Scott Eiland's picture

CONTEMPT!!! :-P

Seriously, though--it's about the best way that Holder could have responded under the circumstances. It won't help Obama's larger problem here, though. It's time for another round of "who said this?":

Presidents should generally refrain from commenting on pending cases during the process of judicial deliberation. [...] Even if such comments won’t affect the justices a bit, they can contribute to an atmosphere of public cynicism that I know this president laments.

The answer, of course, is Harvard Law's own Professor Laurence Tribe. If even his most dedicated allies aren't willing to give him cover on this, maybe it's time he quits while he's behind.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Well Yes, When You're in a Hole, Stop Digging....(& 2013)

(#278108)

...if the 2nd Obama Adminsitration needs to craft brand new legislation...then they will.

 

Though, the economic choices comming up...tax increases, cut government spending, (for me, espc Defense)...no one is going to enjoy being President in 2013.

 

Traveller

Is that a new rule?

(#278330)

If anyone on your side disagrees with you, you must collapse and cower? Okay, make sure to let Antonin know.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Soooo

(#278110)
HankP's picture

it looks like Holder took the opportunity to file a well publicized amicus brief?

I blame it all on the Internet

Heh, looks like it.

(#278111)

Hey, everyone, let's remind the courts, and incidentally everyone else, that the bar for overturning legislation is pret-ty damn high. With all due respect, of course.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Obamacare repeal would leave hospitals holding the bag

(#278183)

From Ezra Klein yesterday, a report put out by Moody's on the impact of PPACA repeal paints a bleak picture for hospitals nationwide.

Before health reform passed, hospitals were in a financial squeeze. Millions of Americans lost insurance coverage during the recession and made fewer trips to the doctor. Hospitals provided a greater level of uncompensated care, largely in emergency rooms, to those who couldn’t pay their medical bills. Baby Boomers aged onto Medicare, which pays less than private insurance, further shrinking health-care providers’ income. The business model, simply put, looked to be heading off a cliff.

 

“There was a patient mix shift happening that, unless hospitals changed, they were going to be losing money in about five years,” Chas Roades, chief research officer at consulting firm the Advisory Board Co., told me recently.

Obamacare is basically going to save their bacon, and probably prevent dozens of hospital closings around the country. This despite the fact that the hospitals under PPACA stand to lose $157 billion in lost Medicare payments...the savings from new patients and private insurance claims more than make up the difference. 

At the same time, hospitals have already made significant investments in preparing for the Affordable Care Act. They’re learning to become more efficient, so that they can hit those productivity targets in the law. As I wrote in a longer story last month, the health industry isn’t really waiting around for the Supreme Court’s decision. They’re treating the Affordable Care Act for what it currently is: The law of the land.

If the law falls now, it could be a bit of a double-whammy: Not only would costs of uncompensated care continue to rise, but all those investments in productivity — catalyzed by the health overhaul — would no longer reap much of a financial reward.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Nice catch.  Many hospital

(#278193)

Nice catch.  Many hospitals around the country, certainly in California and Washington State, have bought each other up in anticipation of building large patient pools so they can participate as ACOs.  They have also started to seek consultation on efficient practices, computerized records and ordering, and many other modern and proven techniques for better patient care.  The thought is - lots of patients, lots of experience, lots of infrastructure for efficient treatment.  Funny that regulation can guide industry and business to do the right thing for citizens.  Who could possibly have forseen such a crazy outcome?  If only the free market jihadists could save us from ourselves!

????

(#278195)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

You're conflating "people using hospitals more" with "doing the right thing for citizens".  Those are not equivalent.

No

(#278197)
HankP's picture

building a large patient pool doesn't mean "people using hospitals more", it means building a larger pool. Just like an insurance company building a bigger base of subscribers doesn't automatically mean that all their subscribers will use more services. It just allows spreading the risk across a larger population.

I blame it all on the Internet

You are kind of right but I

(#278204)

You are kind of right but I did mention "efficiency" which isn't selected for with our traditional system.

That's a fallacy

(#278198)
HankP's picture

the idea that the free market always leads to greater efficiency. It only does so if higher efficiency leads to greater profits, otherwise there's no reason to do all that work.

I blame it all on the Internet