The Joys of Driving in Italy - Open Thread
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMB-lOZo0PA
The accents are Napoletano. Aspetti! Fatti cazzi tuoi, eh!
Yes, the driving exam requires you to parallel park. No, not everyone who drives in Italy bothers to apply for "un' patente". Obviously, this woman has never adequately considered the problem she now faces.
Open thread. No bumping.
--
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
- Jordan's blog
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http://wwrdheritage.org/
Heritage Foundation's new site. Via Yglesias.
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)"What would Reagan do?"
Maybe:
- "Cut and run" from Iraq (as he did from Lebanon).
- Raise taxes to reduce the greater deficit caused by previous tax cuts.
- Engage in affirmative action in Supreme Court nominations (as he did with O'Conner -- he had promised as a candidate in 1980 to appoint "a woman" to the Supreme Court).
- Violate the sanctions against Iran, selling them arms as part of a deal with terrorists, and then using the money to violate the law by supplying arms to a rebel group after doing so had been explicitly prohibited.
- Outlaw Russia forever and begin bombing in 5 minutes.
NOTE: The above was meant as snark toward those who elevate Reagan to the status of deity. I think Reagan deserves credit for some things, most notably (probably) hastening the end of the Cold War and the demise of the Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc.
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| parent )during meetings?
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| parent )Oh... wait, Bush 43 did that. Well, everyone thought he was Reagan reborn, too.
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| parent )is that he is, with less capable staff.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )a "Question of the Week"!
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )Jake Peavy cruises to give the Padres a rare win, and The Big Unit wins #292 as Barry Zito continues to prove himself the worst free agent starting pitcher signing in the past five years, at least.
I had written off Johnson's chances to reach 300 wins before his career ended, but if he gets within five by the end of the season, someone will let him take a shot at it next year unless he's literally physically incapable of continuing.
Zito is just *awful*. The Dodgers actually look brilliant by comparison for signing Jason Schmidt to a three year contract and only getting 25.2 innings in a season and a half out of him. If I was running the Giants, I'd be thinking about making an offer for Greg Maddux just to try to make a respectable showing for the rest of the season; of course, Maddux is not dumb and would probably realize that he'd have even less support in San Francisco than he does in San Diego, and veto the trade (by threatening to retire, if necessary). The Dodgers just made a move by acquiring third baseman Casey Blake from the Indians for two minor leaguers (including slugging class A catching prospect Carlos Santana--where *do* the Dodgers keep finding all these great hitting catchers, anyway?)--I'm hoping they make a move by making an offer for Maddux. After today's game--where young phenom Clayton Kershaw pitched magnificently to earn his first major league win--the Dodgers are back at .500 and only a game out of first in the NL West in spite of multiple catastrophes this season. If they make the right move, the West is theirs to win.
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)Ahh, the National League.
--"How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read." -- Karl Kraus, 1909
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| parent )The above from Spencer Ackerman. Meanwhile, Senator McCain spent the morning denying he ever used the word 'timetable.' Which was fun.
--"How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read." -- Karl Kraus, 1909
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)I just saw an absolutely great documentary, Heavy Metal in Baghdad. Even if you're not a fan of heavy metal you should see it, it's really about the unbelievable persistence and determination of a bunch of guys from Baghdad who just want to "grow our hair long and rock out". If there's any justice in the world, this should get an Oscar nomination. Highly recommended.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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)This is just unbelievably outrageous, both that someone would take it and that a newspaper would publish it http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-prayer26-2008jul26,0,307044.s...
Talk about no sense of decency! And that's coming from a guy (me) who thinks religious faith is silly. Silly or not, violating a person's privacy and violating a revered site is really outrageous.
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)The word Sacrilege literally means to steal something from a temple - sacer, sacred - legere, to steal.
I think I could deal with great riches, but fame is a destroyer.
Traditionally, all the prayer notes left in the Wailing Wall are buried, in accordance with Jewish tradition, where all paper bearing the name of God is treated with the dignity accorded a human being.
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| parent )thanks. Leaving aside the jerk who stole Obama's note (with whom I'd like to have 5 minutes alone for a private "discussion" -- just him, me and my Louisville Slugger), I hope there is some serious discussion in the journalistic (and larger) community over the journalistic ethics of publishing the contents -- and image -- of the note, and I mean not just the initial newspaper that published it, but all the other (mainstream) newspapers that have now done so.
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| parent )White House gave FOX commentators talking points
Bonus link
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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)I leave you Ray Charles: Genius Loves Company for your inspection.
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)This is one of them:
--"How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read." -- Karl Kraus, 1909
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)Well this is just about the coolest thing I've ever heard of. How come nobody ever told me about this gadget? I was doing some innocent web research on minesweeping, and clicked on a link that says this propeller system is often used on minehunter vessels. The Voith-Schneider propeller. Not only does the name sound like something Phillip K. Dick dreamed up, the swirling blades also happen to look totally awesome. It's like steering your boat with a giant Cuisinart. "Full frappe ahead, Cap'n!"
In idiot's terms, that means even a large vessel can almost instantly change direction in a full 360 degrees of movement. Cooool.
I'm ok with mechanical stuff, but I was still flummoxed. So I headed over to Voith Turbo and it turns out they have a little interactive game. Click "Open iVSP" at the bottom of the page to see it in action.
Now I just need to figure out how to get one installed on a bass boat....
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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)I've had a long love affair with what I call the Fast Dirigible, and made several rather large ones, my last one was based on the shark paradigm. These things always come to grief on the rocks of propulsion. It's trivial to put a reversible propeller in a nacelle, powered by a DC motor. Somewhat less trivial to orient the nacelles, about the stage where I'm integrating slats into the ducted fans, the whole thing breaks down in shit and ruin. The Voith Turbo looks damned near like an ideal solution.
I wonder how small such a device could be made?
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| parent )My brother built one -- standard airboat design plus pressure fans for the skirt. He looked at nacelles for the main drive, but the engineering was a bit much for him. Speed, maneuverability over any surface, lots of fun to drive, er, fly.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )as I am to my Fast Dirigible. My primary interest in the Fast Dirigible is as a camera platform.
I've been on an airboat in Louisiana... now that was a blast.
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| parent )Yeah right.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )to my favorite Windows game. :)
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Hey all. I for one think this is pretty cool. Just want to pass it on.
I had a few white casual summer shirts that after a year or two or three, had developed some nasty yellow armpit stains. Yeah, I scrubbed them with stain remover, tried hot water, a little bleach, but nothing got rid of it. Oh well. Time to chuck them out, right?
I got an idea. I took a plastic bucket and made a pretty strong solution of Oxi-Clean (sodium percarbonate)... Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxi_Clean
with some hot water. I made it pretty strong, about 4 or 5 scoops in a bucket, and added about three gallons of hot water. I threw the shirts in and stirred them around thinking, if it works, great... if not, I toss the shirts out and no harm, no foul.
A few hours later, I forgot I had done this. I had put the bucket in a closet and ended up leaving it there for 30-some hours before stumbling on it again. Remember, I was ready to toss these shirts out anyway.
I took them out, threw them in the washer with the liquid in the bucket and set them to wash. They came out perfect. No yellow left. The fabric was not deteriorated from the soak either. A couple of the shirts were all cotton, and one was a cotton-poly blend. All three were now armpit-stain free.
I repeated the process with a couple more shirts, and a few of my wife's as well. One of mine that was older and part poly didn't come clean 100%, but all the others are good as new...
Anyway, just thought I'd pass this along. If this post can save just one shirt, then I can die proud. God bless America.
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)Anyone have any info/theories/wild-ass-guesses as to why Jim Webb (supposedly) took himself out of consideration for veep? I considered him the smartest and most likely pick.
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)He wants to run for the top job himself someday and he thinks that building up his own record will help him more than spending eight years in another mans shadow.
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| parent )...falter and fail in the November election.
What you are thinking has has also crossed my mind...Webb's is a smart wait and see move.
Best Wishes, Traveller
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| parent )“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )Any stick in the bumb is bad.
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )One of my girls said "bumbersticker" when she was about 5 and it just stuck...mmm... so to speak. Perhaps because it was an old pile of junk covered with 'the end is neigh' type of messages.
A couple years later I laughed at someone's sticker and she asked, "was that a bumbersnicker?"
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )Traveller
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| parent )Temperamentally, he's just about the least qualified person in the world for VP.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )But from the bit I heard, Webb took himself out of contention because he didn't want to comply with some aspect of the vetting, making me wonder if he had something to hide. Have you / has anyone read/heard anything about that?
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| parent )...is a source of distress to me.
I haven't heard anything bad about his background, and I'd imagine that this would have been vetted in his Senate race.
I like the man....I don't agree with all of Webb's positions on lots of stuff...but, I like him, if you know what I mean.
He could have been in a donkey show in Tijuana and I'd still like him....this is where me and most Americans are very distinctly different.
Best Wishes, Traveller
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| parent )Your "donkey show" reference reminds me of when I was in the Bangkok's famous/infamous red light district, Patpong (I swear I was there with my gal, who was such a sport that, knowing I'd be curious, she suggested we check out Patpong). I couldn't walk ten steps without some guy jumping in front of me trying to get us to go with him to a strip joint. The odd thing was that they all had the same line: "Ping-pong ball banana show! Ping-pong ball banana show!". It's like their trade association did extensive market research and found that to be the most effective line.
As for Webb, I think he's a very impressive guy.
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| parent )As I recall he served under John Warner for a while and John Warner later hinted that the word "insubordinate" often wasn't far from his mind.
Webb doesn't like bosses -- any boss -- and therefore Veep would be one of the WORST jobs in the world for him.
He also has a tendency to speak his mind freely, even if it annoys his superiors. Obama (maybe) could have dealt with that.
--. . . and it looks as though they’ll punish the monkey and let the organ grinder go . . .
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| parent )....only Charlie Rose, I believe.
That is one very smart man. Impressive.
I like him and have always pushed him to be Veep.
Too bad he's out, but maybe a smart move for him as a person.
Traveller
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| parent )How did these people end up in charge?
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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)K-lo's not in charge, though we have the government we do in part due to people like her...
-----
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.
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| parent )And so one winter's day we pushed a heavy cart up and down Sarajevo's steep streets to collect water from a brewery pump, for all of the things one needs water for - drinking, cooking, washing, flushing toilets, growing little plants and herbs inside, and so on. And while waiting for our turn in the open street, Karadžić's little demons fired a shell which vaporized my mother and sent my father's head rolling down the street in my view, until I lost consciousness. I was wheeled to the morgue and left to die from my untreatable injuries. By a miracle, I survived.
...
I'm happy they caught him. I'm proud that my people (those who believe in decency and basic rights) will treat him according to a standard he never lived up to himself.
http://www.metafilter.com/73480/Justice-postponed#2191501
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)Gentlemen--meet the A-11 Offense.
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)"The most powerful tool in singing technology since yodeling, dude"
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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| parent )is going on here in the Bay Area this weekend:
The Festival of Sail.
I actually spent the night aboard the Balclutha last year as a "Tall Sailor" (chaperon) for my daughter's participation in her school's "Age of Sail" program. These old ships are truly awe-inspiring. If you can get there, go.
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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)This social networking outfit has figured out Pandarus was on to something. There's money to be made in hooking up shy would-be adulterers. Who knew? Only, you can't do it in post-Giuliani Times Square.
The Ashley Madison site could use some tips on style, not to mention dressing up their BS a bit:
Better question: what do most female members do for a living? They could use some help with the artful rationalizations as well:
The Times Square board, incidentally, was probably copped from last season's Gossip Girl ads (except the designer has serious font issues):
Fun stuff!
If anyone needs me, I'll be exploring my feelings.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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)...this seems to be becoming an interesting video thread....and this from the BBC seems interesting, to me at least. I'm not a Navy guy, but I wouldn't want to be in deep water when this type of torpedo hits....bad times swimming. (there is no sound, and it can't be embeded...sorry)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7523147.stm
Best Wishes,
Traveller
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)deep water or shallow water if you were below deks when that hit then swimming wouldn't be in it.
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| parent )- Login or register to post comments
)Do you:
a) slam the gas, hoping centrifugal force from the engine will stabilize you
b) Jerk the wheel hard left and right, the way you've seen em do it in the movies
c) try to bounce off as many objects and cars as possible to bleed off speed
d) remember the brakes, standing on the pedal while pumping the hand brake for good measure; or
e) all of the above?
Seriously, though, I'd have to blame Portland in this case. Those roads should've been salted if not plowed hours ago.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )gets some serious points for style. I can imagine the person behind the wheel giving a primal scream and then hitting the gas, caroming off of cars and poles and walls, and then finally slumping back in their seat completely spent.
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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| parent )in an uncontrolled spin on ice on a downslope
Is that a veiled reference to the McCain campaign?
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| parent )...driving on a road that has turned to ice without chains is....such an adventure...or horror, depending on whether or not you're driving or just a spectator.
I've been there and the feeling is sooooo helpless, there's just nothing you can do and all your old driving assumptions must be thrown out the window.
Transylvania, Romania, January, hilly country with the Carpathians mountains n all, you just slide as in this video, through stop signs, thorough intersections....it just didn't matter what was there.
Interestingly, driving in these conditions for over a month, I never hit anything but the occasional bush, curb, pole or fence, but with no damage.
Lucky, I guess.
Hummmm
Traveller
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| parent )I'd appreciate any links anyone can provide to analyses (in articles, columns, transcripts, video/audio, etc.) of the extent to which the surge enabled particular "successes" in Iraq.
In particular I'm interested in understanding to what extent the surge contributed to the efforts and "successes" of the "Sunni Awakening", and to the (supposed) weakening of Sadr/Mahdi Army. But I'm also interested in the more general question related to any particular "successess".
thanks.
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)Since McCain appears to be amending the definition of surge mostly at will, I am reminded of that horrific movie with Stallone where in a future LA "All restaurants are now Taco Bell"
hilzoy (as usual) is snarky-funny:
New tactics (such as those advocated by Colonel McFarland) have been universally credited by pretty much everyone with improving the situation. Including Obama.
Whether increased troop levels materially helped (which is what "the surge" means to everyone else except for GOP-ers in the last few days) is a bit more problematic.
--. . . and it looks as though they’ll punish the monkey and let the organ grinder go . . .
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| parent )I don't know if your question is just rhetorical (a dig at McCain), but I'm referring to the surge (the increase in troops), not to what McCain is strangely referring to in some oddly-expanded definition of the surge.
Having said that, to the extent to which the surge worked synergistically with other factors/efforts/tactics/etc., the incremental effectiveness enabled by the surge (vs. the impact those other factors would have had without the synergistic effect of the surge) is certainly within the scope of my question.
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| parent )has looked at your question without political preconceptions.
McCain and Obama are asking different questions.
As far as I can tell, McCain and his supporters are saying more troops improved the situation in Iraq. Possibly this us true but how much was due to more boots and how much was due to better strategy? I deny ANYONE can pen an authoritative unbiased study on that.
As far as I can tell, Obama is saying that the improvements in the Iraqi situation that can be directly be attributed to more troops (isolated out from better strategy etc . . .) are very slight compared with the costs and lost opportunities elsewhere in the world and to what extent does our insistence on providing the Iraqis "training wheels" prevent the very success we claim we seek.
--. . . and it looks as though they’ll punish the monkey and let the organ grinder go . . .
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| parent )Here
A Synergy link here
Is American Thinker partisan Democratic or Republican?
This article appears to praise and criticize partisan arguments on both sides.
--. . . and it looks as though they’ll punish the monkey and let the organ grinder go . . .
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| parent )who has said several times recently that the surge was a success, and credited US soldiers with the dramatic reduction in violence in Iraq. It's all over the press, but I can help with links if you like.
--Rust never sleeps.
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| parent )Not interested in campaign talk from either camp. Needless to say, that's for political consumption (even if it's a concession of sorts), not exactly the kind of analysis I'm looking for.
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| parent )Rush.
Backstage on The Colbert Report:
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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)Seriously. I know an 8 year old that could kick their butt playing both instruments & singing. That guy on drums couldn't find the beat if it was taped to his forehead. No offense fellas, but get some chops.
LMAO, great vid.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )As a former amateur drummer (playing exclusive venues of basements, parties, and basement parties), I'd like to say that Neil Peart RULES! He's always been my favorite drummer. Although Michael Giles (King Crimson drummer) is just amazing in 21st Century Schizoid Man (below. Note: takes a while for the music to come on. Note #2: good chance you'll either love this cut or hate it. Note #3: If the latter, you're a douchebag)
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| parent )- Login or register to post comments
| parent )will bring to the latest incarnation of Crim. He's quite the drummer: even the mighty Bruford is in awe of his ability to improvise meter.
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| parent )Blaise, if you haven't already, go to DGM Live and treat yourself to a couple of downloads. There's a wealth of live shows archived on the site.
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| parent )Release the Beast!!
--"How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read." -- Karl Kraus, 1909
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| parent )Nobody can play the trap drums like Airto. Nobody else has this command of the instrument. I've seen some of the best trap drummers this world has to offer, and no "rock" drummers can compare. Ginger Baker had chops, Bonham, (who I never saw in person), also had chops, but frankly dozens of American drummers could play with this guy. Two more guys leap to mind, Mitch Mitchell and Buddy Miles, who both played for Hendrix. Nobody can play Airto's stuff. Just not possible. Someday some kid will come along...but it hasn't happened yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxIkWgpWG_c
--Me: We! -- Ali
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| parent )Peart has more drums. But Cobham got some serious *hands*.
(And believe it or not, Airto was up on Orcas island recently, performing, and teaching a master drum class.)
--"How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read." -- Karl Kraus, 1909
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| parent )But they're both getting a bit on in years. Trap drumming is an extremely athletic endeavor. Some people think Cobham is the best trap drummer ever. I can't argue with that. He helped invent and define jazz fusion in the early '70's.
--Me: We! -- Ali
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| parent )Check out Thomas Pridgen of The Mars Volta, track Wax Simulacra from The Bedlam in Goliath.
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| parent )Best chops from a new drummer I've heard in, well, decades. The kid's a monster. Thomas Pridgen. Thanks for the link.
--Me: We! -- Ali
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| parent )Assorted bizarre details here.
Goliath youtube here. See above link for how "Goliath" came to be. As strange a tale as any in rock history.
Thomas Pridgen is a child prodigy drummer.
Agadez, more "classically prog".
The Mars Volta has an ongoing relationship with Flea of Red Hot Chili Peppers.
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| parent )about Buddy Miles, he never impressed me much. Two drummers who did really impress me were Keith Moon and Terry Bozzio. It's hard to tell with multitrack recordings, but I've heard some of their live work that is simply astonishing.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )I had the pleasure of seeing/hearing the great Buddy Rich play. I think it was 1979, which would make him 62 years old at the time, but he was still great. Hours before the show I saw him and his band in the parking lot of the venue playing frisbee. I guess conserving energy wasn't a concern.
He's 61 years old in this video:
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| parent )Kidding!
A great drummer anecdote. Big Sid Catlett was playing with Coleman Hawkins at Jimmy Ryan's in New York. The club was jammed, and Buddy Rich was in the audience, snapping his fingers, chewing gum, and dying to sit in with Hawkins and take on Catlett. After a couple numbers, Rich was invited onto the stage, the immense Catlett bowed with ceremonial flourish, Rich settled in behind Catlett's drums, and nodded to Hawkins. I'm ready.
The crowd went nuts. Then it was Big Sid's turn.
One more great drummer tale. At the Newport Jazz festival finale, 1967, there were unaccompanied drum solos by the six or seven greatest drummers alive, including Elvin Jones, Mel Lewis, Louie Bellson, and Buddy Rich. But then Jo Jones, perhaps the greatest of them all, and the oldest player there, concluded the show. Alone, on stage, with nothing but a pair of sticks and his hi-hat cymbal. No drums at all.
As Louie Bellson remembered, "Papa Joe tore everybody apart. We all threw up our hands."
(Quotes and tales from Alfred Appel Jr.'s JAZZ MODERNISM: From Ellington and Armstrong to Matiss and Joyce)
--"How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read." -- Karl Kraus, 1909
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| parent )Ah, and I had let you off the hook for your way-off guess at my age. I hope you don't feel any less insightful now.
Thanks for those drummer anecdotes. You're right, they're great. I should probably get my hands on a book or two with stuff like that, or tales on the internet if there's a way to know if they are at least probably true. Any suggestions?
I wonder if today's top musicians would interact in that way, with playfulness mixed with mutual respect and an appropriate level of humility despite each's own skill and fame.
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| parent )But without a modern equivalent of the jam session, they probably have far fewer opportunities.
The Appel book is a keeper, if you don't mind his determination to create a perfect world where jazz and art are basically the same thing -- eg, he considers Jo Jones' cymbal-only triumph at Newport to be on par with Hemingway triumphing over Joyce. The Louis Armstrong stuff in the book is priceless. Even if he does compare him to Matisse. Or Calder. Or somebody.
Hear Me Talkin' To Ya: The Story of Jazz as Told by the Men Who Made It by Nat Shapiro and Nat Hentoff is also very worthwhile, if only because it's an oral history, collected stories, tall tales, and biographies from the men and women who pioneered the form. Essential stuff.
--"How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read." -- Karl Kraus, 1909
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| parent )thanks for the recommendations
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| parent )when the King Crimson vid was posted, I thought about commenting on the fact that although they were very good, they had the misfortune of releasing that album in 1969, else they'd have sold many more.
And '69 of course, was a very good year for rock and roll fans, indeed.
Two albums from Led Zeppelin, debut album from Chicago, Santana, Yes, The Moody Blues, Blind Faith...what a year to be 16 and have a car w/a 4-track player!!
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )Like Pink Floyd, they had zero label support here in the US. As I recall they were on Atlantic/Atco, who at the time were looking a copy of the Procol Harum hit 'Whiter Shade of Pale.' If Fripp had been less pigheaded and recorded 2-minute versions of any of the tunes on the album--'Schizoid man', 'Court', or any of the other amazing songs that I never tire of hearing (Astralasia's cover of "I Talk to the Wind" is a particular delight), then it would have produced a top-40 hit and probably altered the band's trajectory--which woud have been a shame but might have kept the original line-up together a bit longer. Which might have produced a few more works of the same genius--which IMHO re-emerged only fitfully on their succeeding works. In the case of 'Court', I'm proud to say I was one of the early adopters, then in my last year of high school, but there was only one local copy, which we passed around.
However, there was another factor at work: the national post-Woodstock infatuation with the 'country-rock' fusion sound of CSN&Y. This sucked the air out of the tires of most 'art-rock' or 'space-prog' import bands, which only picked up steam again in 73/74 with Bowie, Roxy Music, Genesis, Eno etc. This was the tide that turned 'Dark Side of the Moon' into a monster and re-opened the American shores for Fripp & Co. As you can probably tell, I became a gigantic addict of this new genre at the time and have been an avid lifelong collector of all of its many permutations.
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| parent )about sucking the air out, I think you've forgotten about how the Moody Blues really dominated (for better or worse) that genre early on, and then Yes and Emerson Lake and Palmer later on. There really wasn't as much of a market for that type of music, though, even in the later 70s it never really became commercially popular (except for ELP, whose success I still can't explain).
I disagree about Woodstock, I think it introduced people to little known or regionally popular bands that later became nationally popular as a result of their performance. But you're absolutely correct about country-rock stuff dominating the early to mid 70s.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )but the Canterbury scene, e.g. Gentle Giant and all of Dave Stewart's bands were what musicians were listening to at the time.
As for the Moody Blues, somehow I never lumped them in with progressive music, save only for Nights in White Satin.
ELP built a symphonic Tower of Babel and went broke doing it. There's a story told of ELP, I cannot vouch for it, but in this account they invited Aaron Copland to hear their first versions of Fanfare for the Common Man. Copland said it was overly respectful and told them to put their own touch on it, rough it up a bit.
Yes and ELP have ties to KC. IIRC Jon Anderson sang a few things for the early KC, and the links between ELP and KC are numerous.
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| parent )is the main singer on Court of the Crimson King, and some other of their albums.
I like Lizard for it's sheer freak-out trippy weirdness, myself.
I saw KC a around 5 years back at the Park West in Chicago, an excellent place to see a live show. It was kind of a snooze-fest, lots of wild tempo and chord changes, but just sort of flat. Some good Frippertronics at the end, an Eno-esque drone with Fripp soloing. I don't think I'd see them live again, though.
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| parent )that Fripp rejected both Peter Hamill and Bryan Ferry at band tryouts.
Should've known you were a 'Canterbury' guy ;)
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| parent )agree about ELP. I could never listen to them, either ;) As for Moody Blues, they had two early hits, 'Nights in White Satin' and 'Ride My Seesaw", if memory serves, that basically rode the coat-tails of 'Whiter Shade of Pale' when Procol Harum failed to reprise with 'Conquistador' (though I continued to love and collect their albums). But the Moody Blues were considered 'symphonic pop-rock', a genre that was shortened to 'pomp-rock' by the mid -70s and included groups like Deep Purple and Queen. The European and progressive components of these groups--as swiftly became the the case with Yes--were subservient to their distinctive sound and elaborate concerts, which we've seen spoofed in many comedies. The British and European 'art-rock', 'space-rock', and 'Kraut-rock' genres are considered to be apart from these and generally labored in obscurity. Eno, Hawkwind, and Can, for example, have never had anything approaching a radio hit in this country.
As for Woodstock--dunno what you're disagreeing about. I wasn't saying it was a 'bad' thing. My collection contains nearly every band there. My point was that it dramatically changed the way the music biz viewed its own product and that it then rushed out stuff to capitalize on what it saw as a whole new market. This is what led to an emphasis in the early 70s on 'American' sounds--country-rock as exemplified by CSN&Y, funk-rock like Hendrix or Sly and the Family Stone, and even the brand-new Latino-rock, debuted by Santana--bastardized by a thousand imitators and wannabees. Woodstock represented the Waterloo of pure 60s pop--from then on, every pop band had to at least pretend to defer to the harder forms of rock music. And after the dust settled, imports began to carve a niche again.
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| parent )Woodstock (and Easy Rider) sure as hell changed the movie business, and not always for the better. But I'm not sure about music. There was a rising tide before and after the event. Woodstock just reported the news. Pure 60s pop was already on the wane, if only becuz some of its best examplars (the Kinks, the Who, the Small Faces) had moved on to different, less pristine, sounds.
--"How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read." -- Karl Kraus, 1909
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| parent )A veddy English band in the best possible way. And never more-so than with Grand Hotel.
And let's not forget Robin Trower, who went to do a little guitar playing elsewhere.
--"How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read." -- Karl Kraus, 1909
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| parent )I promised not to disagree with you, so no matter what I say we are not in disagreement. :)
My point about Woodstock is that I don't think it was responsible for the country rock explosion (or plague, depending on one's tastes and the bands in question). I think that it expanded people's tastes in many directions. I guess when I saw "post Woodstock" I inferred that Woodstock had something to do with it, but my recollection is that the Byrds and Dylan were really the driving force behind it.
Brian Peter George St. John le Baptiste de la Salle Eno did not make much impact as a performer or musician, but as a producer he certainly very influential. How he turned the Talking Heads from a quirky, interesting band into an unforgettable band is genius. He also had a lot to do with Devo's and U2's success.
The problem with art rock or prog rock (or whatever you want to call it) is that by definition it's a very singular vision, so commercial success is not something that those bands could ever hope to achieve except by taking the overproduced symphonic road you described so well. And remember, it's only considered pretentious if you can't quite pull it off.
Just like the discussion of Obama's speech, of course 90% (or more) of music is derivative. There aren't that many real innovators, and most people want a beat they can dance to.
As far as record companies - feh. They show up late to the party and start throwing money at whoever they can, because they really have no idea about the product they're selling.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )singlehandedly invented 'folk-rock'. And this genre was well-represented at Woodstock. But by then it was already old and dying--except in the UK where it was reinvented in the 70s by groups like Renaissance, Pentangle, Fairport Convention, etc. 'Country-Rock' on the other hand was basically established by Buffalo Springfield and its triumphant Woodstock incarnation CSNY, along with a few other groups like Creedence. I was a witness at the time to the enormous excitement surrounding what was perceived as a wholly new--yet utterly American--form of music. Partly this represented a wildly popular social reconciliation between two very antagonistic factions of young people at the height of the Vietnam War--the hippie, anti-war demonstrators who were perceived as upper-middle class college snobs and the blue-collar more rural kids who were stuck in the high-school-military track. When bands evolved they could both listen to in public places without coming to blows over radio stations rushed to play them. Bands that had been playing other genres--like mine--immediately attempted to imitate this new sound.
Sorry to be so nit-picky about genre definitions; these are not my own but have become commonly accepted terms in describing what is now a sort of field of history. The irony is that nowadays there are dozens more of these terms, some of which are impossible to --OK, nailed by my wife.
"What's the difference between arguing about politics and music?"
Thanks Hank--now I'm on probation. This was your plan all along, wasn't it? ;)
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| parent )you are unquestionably correct on all levels from general to specific. Tell your wife that we are just here to listen to your wise pronouncements.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )and neither do I! ;)
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| parent )but be sure to tell her that by those standards she'll have to be rather circumspect in her conversations with you also. How long will it be before she gets tired of saying "You're right, honey"?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )called 'It's for your own good'. I assume you're using it, too ;)
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| parent )you don't know my wife (or daughter). Domestic harmony requires that I not say anything more.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )calm, reasonable discussion, to be quite soothing. Musicology hath sounds....
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )... everyone else sorta missed the point.
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| parent )of the rodeo too. But that's not really 'country-rock'--it's more 'rock musicians play country'. My band memorized nearly every song on that album ;)
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| parent )Actually, his story is pretty fascinating, a great bio came out last year -- and he started playing country much earlier than the Byrds, whom he introduced it to, with the International Submarine Band -- around the time he passed, and passed quickly, thru Harvard.
But he was never ever a 'rock musician'. Most of those guys -- Parsons, McGuinn, etc. -- were folk singers first, and in this they simply followed in the footsteps of the guy who you could say started it all himself. Bob Dylan.
But then there's the Everly Brothers, The Beatles (yep, the Beatles), and heck, Elvis Presley.
Great blog essay on this very question, here.
--"How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read." -- Karl Kraus, 1909
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| parent )