Roman Reading
Since theForvm is about to be redesigned--and because summer, with its reading-for-pleasure leisurely holidays, is almost upon us--I thought I'd take the liberty of listing a few of the Roman-flavored fictions that I've enjoyed in the months since the merciful finale of HBO's colorful and beautifully cast, but often offensively inaccurate, "Rome".
First, a brief plug for the grandfather of Caesarian TV series, ITV's 1969 "The Caesars", just released in the UK on DVD. For decades I'd heard the legend that this 6-part series was more accurate and better-cast than "I Claudius", which it had spurred the production of (as many of you know, I'm sure, Orson Welles had attempted and abandoned a film version in the 1950s). And to some slight degree, these claims are true, though "The Caesars" was filmed on even more of a shoe-string budget (and in dank black and white) than its illustrious successor; the elderly Augustus looks eerily like his own statues, and Tiberius, played brilliantly by Andre Morell, becomes the dominant figure in the story, wracked by duty rather than ambition, his celebrated vices politely ignored. Freddy Jones is brilliant as Claudius and bears up well to comparison even with Derek Jacobi, whom I consider to be one of the finest actors in recent history (his "Hamlet" underscores this assertion, subtly eclipsing any I've ever seen). The script is spare, dry, and elegant, and sticks to recorded facts, unblemished by Robert Graves' magnificent fancies and Jack Pullman's rather lurid improvisations upon them. In the end, however, it is precisely this brilliance, along with the extended time-line of the story and the amazing, relentlessly glittering cast, that make "I Claudius" the greater production.
Off the bookshelf, pride of place must go surely to Robert Harris' "Imperium", the first of two intended novels about Cicero. Readers may find the story overly factual, even dull in places, with its pedantic attention to detail; and a lawyer is seldom as sexy a subject as a soldier. But Harris (whose earlier "Pompeii" was a far more gripping and dramatic evocation of the time), deserves full marks for making the effort to turn the bane of British schoolboys into a living, breathing man.
Those who enjoy an epic sprawling history of families and places (a la Edward Rutherford), rather than individuals, will enjoy Stephen Saylor's "Roma". Author of a long series of (I ask his fans to forgive me in advance) often tedious and predictable mystery novels set in Caesar's time, Saylor uses his research to 'explain' many of the myths of Rome's founding (the Cave of Cacus, the suckling of Romulus and Remus, etc) in naturalistic terms, sometimes based on recent archaealogy. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. But even those who are not enthralled by his transitory characters will enjoy the snapshots of Rome's building and changing cultural life--even though, just as all roads to Rome, his story leads inexorably down through time to Julius Caesar himself (yet again).
I'm not a fan of Lindsay Davis, either, whose very first Falco novel was a jolly romp, but whose work has since devolved into self-referential formulaism. My favorite "Roman detective" is Decius Metellus of John Maddox Roberts "SPQR" series, which is written with a far greater degree of accuracy than many far more pretentious novels about Rome, as well as a great deal of sly wit and charm. I believe we're up to the 12th of this delightful series; in the more recent novels, the "mystery" has increasingly taken a back seat to political and military events. Imagine Bridget Jones as a Roman social climber-turned-private-detective, and you have the central conceit of Marilyn Todd's lively "I, Claudia" series; unfortunately the conceit wears a bit thin in sequels. Initially I had high hopes of Simon Scarrow's "Eagle" series about the adventures of a pair of Roman soldiers, but these have soured as, infected with the awkward unimaginative lecturing of the re-enactor-turned-author, the episodes have floundered on and on.
A wonderful surprise has been the reissue, after several decades OOP, of Wallace Breem's "Eagle in the Snow" and "The Consul's Daughter". The first is set in the same "imperial twilight" as Alfred Duggan's "The Little Caesars" and John Gloag's "Caesar of the Narrow Seas" (both highly recommended), the second is about the mission of an investigator sent by Agrippa to inform on the intrigues surrounding a daughter of Cleopatra, Selene, who was reared by Augustus' sister Octavia and then married off to one of the kings of North Africa. Both novels are haunting and evocative. The history of Selene's parents is examined in Colleen McCollough's massive sequel to her Caesar sextet, "Anthony and Cleopatra". All her talents and faults are on full display here; her descriptions of battles and military campaigns are even more cursory than usual, and her flair for schoolgirl soap-opera dialogue at awkward moments has not deserted her. But her depictions of Anthony and Augustus Caesar lack the bloated hagiographical tone of those of Julius, and her Cleopatra is not unconvincing. Weirdly, however, for a writer so unabashed at deploying her research, she neglects to mention many of the most famous details of the story--including the famous calumny by Anthony that he had once sodomized the young Augustus. Still, one hopes the old beldame lives, like Claudius, long enough to get to Nero. And that I live long enough to read them all...
I realize that many of you have abandoned reading fiction altogether, so I've left out recent non-fiction publications on Rome (like Anthony Everitt's earnest and rather too-PC "Augustus") from this post in the hopes that you'll fill in the blanks below. Perhaps I'll tackle Troy soon; a great number of books about the Trojan War have been piling up on my end-table lately.
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References -

I haven't read much along these lines in many years. The interesting parts of the Roman Empire were in the East. For my money, Rome's heyday was during the Republic. The Republic fascinates me, especially the earliest years, the defeat of Tarquin and the transformation of the Republic during the Samnite and Latin wars.
But the Greeks were never really out of the picture, and much of what we'd call Roman, and no doubt they would too, was Greek. The Romans just built larger versions of these things.
My problem with novels about Rome is the same problem I have with all the books about Lincoln: there's only so many times you can plow the same ground. And it's sorta like the debate between Hard and Soft Sci-fi. If someone tries to deviate from Livy and Suetonius and Tacitus, or try to dig up the lost historians, to put words in their mouths, then the historians get annoyed. If someone tries to cast these people in the mold of modern sentiments, the novels become costume dramas. Nobody's ever adequately conveyed the brutality of the times, the jingoism, the gleeful sadism. Oh we get a few baroquely obscene emperors here and there, but the sheer scale describing the enterprise that was Rome is as indescribable as writing a novel about a nest of fire ants.
Barbed wire enclosed an arbitrary spot Where bored officials lounged (one cracked a joke) And sentries sweated for the day was hot: A crowd of ordinary decent folk Watched from without and neither moved nor spoke As three pale figures were led forth and bound To three posts driven upright in the ground. - The mass and majesty of this world, all That carries weight and always weighs the same Lay in the hands of others; they were small And could not hope for help and no help came: What their foes like to do was done, their shame Was all the worst could wish; they lost their pride And died as men before their bodies died. - She looked over his shoulder For athletes at their games, Men and women in a dance Moving their sweet limbs Quick, quick, to music, But there on the shining shield His hands had set no dancing-floor But a weed-choked field. - A ragged urchin, aimless and alone, Loitered about that vacancy; a bird Flew up to safety from his well-aimed stone: That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third, Were axioms to him, who'd never heard Of any world where promises were kept, Or one could weep because another wept.The poets always say it best. Auden, Shield of Achilles.
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)Over the Alps on an elephant
Went Hannibal out of his element
For the elephant's motion
Was so like the ocean
He continually Punicked
Upon his best tunic
And his slaves had to wash off the elephant
Dido wrote to Aeneas
Why don't you sail by and see us
I'm here all alone
With my lust and no phone
Half dead of desire
My crotch quite on fire
Which I've heard you'd put out with your penis
There was a young lady from Exeter
--And all the young men threw their sex at her
One day to be rude
She posed in the nude
While her parrot, a pervert, took pecks at her
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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| parent )about fire-ant nests? ;)
After all, we're just God's ant farm...
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| parent )n/t.
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| parent )...largely because of what you and Luis Alegria had to say about it, way back when. I'm sorry that you seem so negative about it, now, 'cause I've really been enjoying it.
Anyway, I'm curious what you would have to say about Allan Massie's series: Caesar - Antony - Augustus - Tiberius - Caligula - Nero's Heirs...fun reading, I think, but perhaps a bit sensationalized?
I agree that it would be great if "the old beldame lives, like Claudius, long enough to get to Nero."
But I think it would be even better if she *went back*, to cover the story of the brothers Gracchi - which, for some reason I simply cannot understand, has never received even remotely adequate fictional representation.
--Live not by lies.
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)BTW?
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| parent )that coming here was raising his blood pressure too much.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )He was one of my favorites here. Makes the survivors all the more valued.
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| parent )Luis Alegria was hounded out of here by people who simply couldn't mind their manners, when faced with genuine ideological diversity.
--Live not by lies.
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| parent )the accusation is the action.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )You're still here.
--Live not by lies.
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| parent )he began attacking other posters more and more, calling them "the enemy" and using personal insults. He received several warnings from the mods at the time for his remarks. He was the one who chose to leave.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )...no, HankP, he didn't.
But there was a certain point where he ran out of patience with being shat on. And at that point we lost one of the main value-added posters on this (or, indeed, any) internet site.
--Live not by lies.
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| parent )I knew it was going to turn into this. You're both right. Luis DID go off and DID get sh!t on*. Not necessarily in that order.
*Sorry, NPB, Americans don't use the past tense of that word.
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )...is *not* impressed by American (soon to be Americano) ignorance of correct usage.
"Prescriptive, not descriptive" is her motto.
I, Vinteuil, transcribe her very words.
--Live not by lies.
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| parent )Telemundo is still 2-3 channels out of 500, right?
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )the statement above is false. Mr. Alegria most certainly did characterize the beliefs held by posters here as "demonic," and posters here as members of ideological movements which he referred to as the (or an) "enemy."
I respected his decision to leave, as he clearly viewed engaging with persons who held beliefs such as the ones I hold to be extremely stressful -- and that ongoing stress seemed to bring out the worst in him.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )I don't think it was incivility, just exhaustion/frustration of interacting with people who shared few presuppositions.
Also around the time he left the site was fairly static/declining. I noticed him wandering around to other sites e.g. crookedtimber for some different convos even though they lean left harder than here and banned him.
Anyway such issues are harder to deal with than straightforward incivility + still a challenge for the site.
But... life moves on and I agree w. wagster that overall this is an interesting + dynamic place. In fact my frustration lately has been taht there's been too much to comment on and I don't have the time to engage as much as I'd like. That's a good problem.
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| parent )...at crookedtimber than he did here.
But crookedtimber doesn't even mount a *pretense* of ideological diversity. It's just a non-stop fountain of Euro-leftish orthodoxy.
--Live not by lies.
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| parent )But I can see that the response to a simple question like that highlights just how bitterly divided this place has become politically--reflecting pretty strong divisions all over the blogging world, even on far-right and far-left sites right now. I guess it's this election, crystallizing years of frustration and hostility which, aimed at amorphous figures who cannot be contacted in real life, spill over into contexts like this. Too bad. I'll never discuss books here again without missing "Mr" Alegria's comments--just as I could never talk about music without hoping for a comment from Harley. And while I doubt Hank and I could agree on even the time or date, no one here is dearer to me as a friend.
BTW, is it safe to ask why Ken White left?
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| parent )Actually, I have no idea. I think Hank contacts him from time to time. He was taking a break, there was talk of him returning. But he hasn't as yet.
I miss him. As I'm sure many others do.
--"How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read." -- Karl Kraus, 1909
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| parent )Do you feel unsafe?
I don't feel bitterness against anyone here. I certainly didn't feel bitterness towards Luis, who nonetheless described people who think very much like me as the enemy, rather than political opponents.
Thus, I believe he routinely skirted the "civilized" aspect of the rules. I do miss his voice at times, but he was wound up a bit too tight for a place like this.
Ken, who knows? Sometimes life gives you other things to do. I know I've spent a lot less time here than I used to.
--We are in serious, worsening trouble.
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| parent )carrying on about milstuff.
I'm slowly dragging two of my friends out of Newsvine, I think they'll do quite well here, they're lurking. One is a fine Virginia gentleman, works in DC, quite a historian, a Republican Conservative. History major, narrowly avoided a career in CIA. I believe we may be distantly related, our ancestry into colonial Virginia and what is now West Virginia.
The other is an American living in Sweden. I guess he's been there oh thirty years maybe. His son is a Ranger in the Swedish military, is going to Mazar-i-Sharif for six months very shortly here. Software engineer, somewhat liberal, but not very. Learning Arabic, will be going to Yemen soon.
The three of us go back a long, long way, and are the best of friends, though we've never met. Oh, I talk to one of them on Skype, the Republican gets to read my copy before I put it up anywhere, he's my sanity check. I swore, after I got banned out of here last time, I'd never consciously write anything that wouldn't pass muster with an honest Republican. For I can be an a$$hole, as all here will attest.
Anyway, that's what I'm trying to do, get some fresh blood in here.
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| parent )Bring 'em on in. And next time you see Ken? Tell him Harley says hello.
--"How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read." -- Karl Kraus, 1909
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| parent )Are you talking about the same Luis Alegria I know?
Perhaps there was some outburst I was not privy too, and I'll take your quotes of him at face value, but my experience of him was that he was one of the most civil and respectful voices I engaged. Wound too tight? I just couldn't disagree more.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )Your recollection is correct, regardless of what MA or Harley will beg to differ. Luis' problem is that he said things about the "Left", which would genuinely offend anyone "of the left". He saw a distinction between the two, but the distinction was too easily lost if you didn't read in good faith.
The irony appears to be that it most offended the people who routinely say equally offensive things about the right (sans the politeness), and I would be willing to bet that weariness of that double standard (and the subsequent piling on that followed) has more to do with his absence than any other factor.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )...is/was a really smart orthodox Catholic Filipino who could write like a muhf****r.
It is most unlikely that this site will ever again see his like.
Somehow, I, queer protestant agnostic that I am, managed to get along with him.
I wish that some of the orthodox lefties around here could have managed the same feat.
--Live not by lies.
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| parent )Mr. Macallan,
I believe you are possessed by demons and an enemy of this country. But I am only making a distinction so please don't take it personally.
--"How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read." -- Karl Kraus, 1909
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| parent )Is it Tuesday already?
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )Officer: Your Highness, the King has stirred and calls for you.
Harry: Ah. (swallows nervously) Very well. (removes his hat; stands) Gentlemen,
I must leave you. (takes the helmet from Officer and draws his sword,
preparing to meet the deranged King) Prince Edmund is in charge!
(Percy begins to bang on the table in approval, but all the lords
mutter "Oh shame..." so he stops. Harry and Officer leave. Baldrick
brings Harry's notes to Edmund.)
Edmund: Er, yes, right. Gentlemen, right... (reads from Harry's notes) As you
know, today we face the gravest crisis this country has known since
the Roman invasion.
(They all make sounds of protest: "Nonsense!"; "Rubbish!"; etc.)
Lord 1: What about the Viking invasion?
Lord 2: ...and the Norman invasion?
Angus: ...and the Swiss invasion?
Edmund: Er, well, the greatest crisis for some time.
Lord 2: And we all know why!
Edmund: Why?
Angus: Because the King is possessed!
Edmund: What?!
Lord 2: True! True! The land is full of omens of bewitchment. Only last week
in Cornwall, a man with four heads was seen taking tea on the beach;
and two women in Windsor claimed to have been raped by a fish!
Lord 1: I, too, have heard such tales. In (Harrigate?), it rained phlegm; and
they do say that, in Edinburgh, the graves did open and the ghosts of
our ancestors rose up and competed in athletic sports!
Percy: ...and a friend of mine had this awful pimple on the inside of his
nose!!!
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| parent )if you're going to call roughly half of America "demonic" or victims of "demonic possession," you have to be a bit of a grownup about the pushback you're going to receive. That's what Mr. Alegria didn't have; I honestly think he was offended at the idea that liberals took offense at his characterization. To his mind, it was a matter of course that we were/are demons. It was incredibly insulting to be taken to task for saying something which was patently true. He acted like someone whose dignity was under constant assault.
Also, searches appear to look for comment text, rather than authors. It'd be awesome if there were an "author" field in the advance search box.
Though paging through the archives reminded me of Livia -- man, those were some fun times. War as therapy for middle-class Americans and the illuminati-like control of the "socialist left."
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )Course, you take pushback as well as the next guy.
--Rust never sleeps.
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| parent )Post provocative stuff to try to get a conversation going, expect folks to be provoked.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )Never speaks ill of a lady from his past, no matter how intemperate her accusations.
Which brings me to my next question--what became of Livia/Andromeda/SpaceVixen?
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| parent )"I can no more disown him [Reverend Jeremiah Wright] than I can disown the black community"- Senator Barack Obama, March 18, 2008
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| parent )as I recall talked about working towards a doctorate and that this place was too much of a time sink.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )At some point implying she had a new boyfriend. That may also have had something to do with it. You don't think she ran off with Luis Alegria, do you? ;)
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| parent )I once wrote a comment intending to parody Luis Alegria's contributions and Livia, who didn't recognize the send-up, started coming on to me.
I know she was at the late dissertation stages as well and was trying to ween off the blogging.
Too bad. She's the only person I could reliably flirt with on the board.
Out of desperation, I tried it with Macallan a few times, but he's a stick in the mud.
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| parent )life is too strange to discount anything.
I'm waiting for you to start writing fiction about the people here rather than yourself and your imaginary friends, but that might cause another year long sojourn not of your own choosing.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )I wish I could make this stuff up. So far there's been less fiction in my 'Memoirs' than in most of the political diaries here ;)
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| parent )There's no way we'd ever seem plausible as characters. Heck, even I'm not entirely sure I....
[NO CARRIER]
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )I feel like we're speaking to Alexander Graham Bell via a (happy) medium in a seance. Speak up, lad.
--Rust never sleeps.
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| parent )...meets Mr. Tails.
Same coin, different sides.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )he specifically called individuals here "the enemy" and compared liberal ideas to demonic possession. He made personal attacks which even the conservative mod at the time (I believe it was Scott) warned him about. Please show me where conservatives have had similar things said about them personally (without getting a warning or banning from the mods). No amount of saying "Mr." or "Sir" changes that.
Also, he specifically said he left because it was raising his blood pressure.
He's free to return whenever he wants, but to claim that he was somehow run out of here by the big bad liberals is the worst kind of revisionism.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent ). . .I warned him for repeatedly calling Gramsky "Mr. Gramsci," on the assumption that most people would be consider being referred to by the name of a famous leftwing nutjob to be personally offensive (see "Duranty, Walter" for historical references regarding Tacitus and the Forvm in this area of discourse). When Gramsky assured me that he wasn't offended and saw no reason why anyone should be offended by said desgination, I withdrew the warning, shaking my head in mild disbelief all the while.
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| parent )Luis's tendency to call certain people 'enemy' may have struck some as over the line, but when the alternative is off-handed dismissal (and that's usually the alternative), I can't help but find it refreshingly honest--ethically and, especially, intellectually.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )No more than Chomsky - presumably the other half of Gramsky's nom d'internet.
But implacable enemies of orthodox catholicism? Absolutely.
--Live not by lies.
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| parent )to Garden Noam Chomsky. Didn't want anyone to miss it, as apparently it's important to the guy. Chomsky, that is.
--Rust never sleeps.
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| parent )You're not really responding to what I wrote. I didn't say Luis was a perfect gentleman. I specifically stated that he said things that would genuinely offend anyone leaning left.
The issue is the faux outrage about that kind of behavior when it's consistently tolerated in circumstances that are more congenial.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )faux or real? I have no problem with the back and forth over issues. You won't see any GBCW posts from me.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )if you post about participation here requiring you to take blood pressure medicine, you shouldn't be doing this.
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )...and he obviously took the most intelligent course.
He quit.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )So why are we rehashing this, again?
Do we really need more navel-gazing around here?
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )....navel-gazing was the entire point of "here".
--The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
- H.L. Mencken
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| parent )Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )Granted, our tastes have a fair amount of breadth to them. But I do suspect that the post noting a general geekiness in the regular participants is not too far off the mark. We contemplate ourselves in other forms. And the in-jokes are horrendous....
--The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
- H.L. Mencken
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| parent )Oh, for a minute I thought you meant...nevermind.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )... are this site's sole* saving grace.
Bite your tongue.
*Well, them and the Diplomacy games. Speaking of, I wonder who hasn't yet put in orders?
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )on any of your navels in some time , so naturally I'm interested in catching up on all the lint ;)
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| parent )...of every party!
--Live not by lies.
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| parent )say that his wife was a ... liberal! Cuz' that would explain a lot ...
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )He was exceedingly polite. But said some truly offensive things about the groups, and therefore the members of those groups, he disagreed with. And not with the usual snark, but with hellfire, brimstone, and accusations of treason.
But it was all very polite. :)
--"How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read." -- Karl Kraus, 1909
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| parent )Just as long as I'm addressed with an honorific.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )And don't forget to check with ICANN first. All the really good evil names are probably already taken by some wimp 17 y/o goth basement mushroom.
--Rust never sleeps.
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| parent )I'm talking about content, not style.
--We are in serious, worsening trouble.
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| parent )my opinion of it is similar to how I would feel about any sprawling epic--the Palisser novels, for example--ie, engrossed by its size and scope, while remaining acutely aware of its stylistic flaws. Don't let my snootiness spoil it for you.
I think I wrote some mini-review of Massie here in the distant past. "Augustus" (which came first) and "Tiberius" are modestly towering achievements--and were the first significant 'counter-realistic' views of their personalities after a gradual (and natural) popular adoption of the "I, Claudius" POV. The rest of the series is, to varying degrees, smarmy and trivial crap. In the UK, Massie has a largely gay audience--his first novel was a reworking of the Colin MacInnes classic "Three Years to the Play"--and his books increasingly attempt to depict the ancient Romans as bi-sexually obsessed British schoolboys. Just as McCullough sees them as nuns, whores, and renegade priests, I suppose ;)
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| parent )McCullough's prose is always very readable, but rarely more than that. Anyway, she's a good story-teller - and that counts for a lot, with me.
And your account of Massie's series makes a lot of sense. With each book, there seems to be less history and more buggery.
Incidentally, my nominations for the best pieces of Roman historical fiction (setting aside the obvious choices - i.e., Shakespeare, Graves & Yourcenar) would have to be:
Alfred Duggan: *Three's Company* (Lepidus)
Lion Feuchtwanger: *Josephus* (Nero, Vespasian, Titus)
Alfred Duggan: *Family Favorites* (Elagabalus)
Colin Thubron: *Emperor* (Constantine I)
György Faludy: *City of Splintered Gods* (Arius vs. Athanasius)
The last is probably the greatest.
--Live not by lies.
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| parent )Manish Ghosh
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| parent )...I'm deeply uncertain.
Everything I read portrays Arius as, more or less, a precursor of modern liberal tolerance, while portraying Athanasius as a precursor of illiberalism and intolerance, verging on Stalinism.
Which seems to be Faludy's take - but he was pretty clearly writing an allegory about modern communism rather than an historical report.
--Live not by lies.
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| parent )As is so often the case in these things, the theology is only a mask over the politics. The Arian heresy wasn't a huge deviation from standard homoousion doctrine of Christ. Arianism wasn't just one thing but many. John 1 comes down on the side of Athanasius and the West took up his views. Arianism is an Eastern thing, as is most of the Gnostic tradition. So it's really Western dogma versus Eastern mysticism.
The stories we have of both men show many banishments, riots, strong-arming, ass-biting and appeals to authority. Athanasius seems to have won, but it was an ugly win.
As a Christian, I don't see that either was entirely correct. Had the Christians been more familiar with Hinduism's notion of the avatar, or the Buddhist notion of the bodhisattvha both sides could have agreed to disagree.
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| parent )There's a great passage in Kantorowicz's The King's Two Bodies where he, in rapid succession, associates various medieval theories of kingship with different Christological heresies. It--the whole book, in fact--is a real tour de force.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )And where are you?
--Manish Ghosh
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| parent )Outside of seminaries, I can't imagine that's a particularly common question.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent )A fellow Alfred Duggan fan! I've paintakingly collected almost all of his books over the years, but even though I've read the Feuchtwanger trilogy, I don't own it, which I would like to.
You've left Mika Waltari's 'The Roman' off your list. It's a good sequel to 'I, Claudius'. And I've always loved George Shipway's 'Imperial Governor'.
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| parent )I liked "Family Favorites" too! I also found Gibbon's "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" audiobook! Unabridged baby!!!
You probably already have it but I was pretty excited ...
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
- H.L. Mencken
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| parent )Audible has several versions of Gibbon available for download, including the unabridged one from Blackstone.
--Live not by lies.
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| parent )I ...ah ... didn't get it from there and my version's only a 32 kps Mp3 which is pretty low quality but even with that much compression the entire book is 1.6 Gb! I also just noticed that it's from Blackstone Audiobooks (boo!, hiss!). You can try your local library and see if they can special order it.
Edit: Oops! forgot the link.
http://www.bookstrip.com/author.php?author_id=223114
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )I have the abridged version. But you've given me something to live for ;)
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| parent )