and BTW, I'm changing my opinion of Martha Raddatz: she's pushing (Paul Ryan, anyway)  a heck of a lot more than Jim Lehrer did :

big problem for Galt's Gulch Paul: Joe Biden has been around the scene for a while: that crack about Biden losing his family to a car crash - when Paul Ryan was two years old was a gem

is talking about how much he cares about the leeches and second handers.

but he's making lots of statements that just aren't true. I don't think he's being very effective though.

The onion is having a field day with Biden "covering" the debates.

Biden Unleashes Torrent Of Vomit On Debate Stage

Biden Puts On Lucky Debate Suit

Biden's Handlers Suggesting He Forget The Words 'Pink' And 'Stink' Altogether

Biden is live tweeting the debates on the onion's twitter feed.

With all due respect.

Though I wonder how large a percentage of the audience is going to say.... "Robert Who??"

Biden nutstomped him on nearly every issue that came up. I think Joe fumbled his explanation of taxes and the economy a bit, but mostly this looked like an amateur debating a professional. A well-trained amateur with a decent skillset, but shouldn't've been in the same ring.

Yeah, that usually goes over well.

He was not as eloquent as I'd like, but at least he had fighting spirit and he kept up the pressure.

Thanks to that, it was way more obvious when Ryan was lying than it was with Romney. Biden also handled the abortion question very well, even as Martha mixed it in with their religion (a really sneaky move I thought). She was visibly favoring Ryan.

It's hard for me to say how much Biden "won" by. What I can say, easily, is that Ryan gained no traction from this. He looked and sounded slick and rehearsed.

All this said, the poll impact should be minor. I think Nate Silver is correct that the VP debate does not have a strong impact in any race, unless the candidate is a total disaster, like Palin.

Ryan's now claiming that his latest version of Vouchercare will have premium support subsidized by wealthier beneficiaries. In other words: guaranteed coverage for everyone, and 100% (or close to that) premium support for poorer beneficiaries. 

Anyone see the problem with that plan? Anyone? Anyone?

THAT'S MEDICARE! Ryan's plan will do essentially the same thing using essentially the same money as the current Medicare program, with the exception that the money will make an extra little circuit through the pockets of private insurers. Why in God's name should we change the program to do the same thing, only with a bigger cut for private insurers who don't actually provide health care?

Biden hinted at this point, but didn't really slam it home. He said "Well there go your savings!" or something like that, which is exactly right. All the money Vouchercare is supposed to save from the deficit goes right out the window if you're offering 100% premium support to people who need it. You might save some money from trimming benefits for wealthier seniors, but you could get there by means testing with no need to scrap the country's far and away most efficient and effective health insurance system. And then of course an entire "means-shelter" industry will grow up to hide grandma & granpa's mattress money from the government.

This sounds like a really dumb program. Either it guts benefits, or it offers zero improvement over current Medicare. I'd love for someone to argue in favor of this bizarre idea.

Ryan walked right into that one.

Biden might have rubbed some female independents the wrong way with his treatment of Raddatz, but he more than made up for it with Reagan Democrats in Ohio, who I'm sure are going "f*ck yeah" at his firebrand populism. On style and substance, big win for Joltin' Joe. Give him his due... he can grab you by the lapels like no other politician.

it's the whole Diane Sawyer emotional manipulation bulls(*t that's infected reporters. I hate it. Also begging the question repeatedly. My problem areas highlighted.

Let's move to Iran. I'd actually like to move to Iran, because there's really no bigger national security... this country is facing. Both President Obama and Governor Romney have said they will prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon, even if that means military action. Last week, former Defense Secretary Bob Gates said a strike on Iran's facilities would not work and, quote, "could prove catastrophic, haunting us for generations." Can the two of you be absolutely clear and specific to the American people how effective would a military strike be?

 

Well, let me ask you what's worse, war in the Middle East, another war in the Middle East, or a nuclear-armed Iran?

 

The Obama administration had projected that it [unemployment] would fall below 6 percent now after the addition of close to a trillion dollars in stimulus money. So will both of you level with the American people: Can you get unemployment to under 6 percent and how long will it take?

 

Let's talk about Medicare and entitlements. Both Medicare and Social Security are going broke and taking a larger share of the budget in the process. Will benefits for Americans under these programs have to change for the programs to survive?

 

OK, on to taxes. If your ticket is elected, who will pay more in taxes? Who will pay less?

 

We have two Catholic candidates, first time, on a stage such as this. And I would like to ask you both to tell me what role your religion has played in your own personal views on abortion. Please talk about how you came to that decision. Talk about how your religion played a part in that. And, please, this is such an emotional issue for so many people in this country ... please talk personally about this, if you could.

 

 I'm - I'm going to move on to this closing question because we are running out of time. Certainly (inaudible) and you've said it here tonight, that the two of you respect our troops enormously. Your son has served and perhaps someday your children will serve as well. I recently spoke to a highly decorated soldier who said that this presidential campaign has left him dismayed. He told me, quote, "the ads are so negative and they are all tearing down each other rather than building up the country." What would you say to that American hero about this campaign? And at the end of the day, are you ever embarrassed by the tone?

 

Let me - let me calm down things here just for a minute. And I want to talk to you very briefly before we go to closing statements about your own personal character. If you are elected, what could you both give to this country as a man, as a human being, that no one else could?

...combination. I don't think Joe helped Barry. On the facts, there were of shortcomings on both sides. And then there was his senior moment.

Incredulousness.