Tripping

I must confess I've never done LSD, or any other drug beyond caffeine and alcohol, and a couple of cigars, lifetime.

 

So, I am pretty boring in that sense. I've never felt a need to get away from reality or anything like that. My mind is already a pretty elastic place that would probably confuse a few people, could they visit.

 

Still, I've always had a desire for clarity, rather than escape, and that makes me curious about LSD. According to this piece, it turns out that Steve Jobs might not have been exaggerating, when he said it was one of the two or three most important things he did:

For this particular experiment, the couched volunteers had each brought along three highly technical problems from their respective fields that they’d been unable to solve for at least several months. In approximately two hours, when the LSD became fully active, they were going to remove the eyeshades and earphones, and attempt to find some solutions. Fadiman and his team would monitor their efforts, insights, and output to determine if a relatively low dose of acid—100 micrograms to be exact—enhanced their creativity.

Apparently, it did, but:

At approximately 10 a.m., a courier delivered an express letter to the receptionist, who in turn quickly relayed it to Fadiman and the other researchers. They were to stop administering LSD, by order of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Effective immediately. Dozens of other private and university-affiliated institutions had received similar letters that day.

So there ended the research, in 1966. If even half of the piece is accurate, this is very interesting. Very. It advocates guided trips on LSD or other psychedelics. Guided is the key word here:

“I think guides are wonderful,” Fadiman said, “which often gets me dismissed as a radical conservative—a kind of fun thing to be in this crowd. But look, you don’t go to the airport and say, ‘I want to fly a plane.’ And a pilot says, ‘Here’s the keys, pick one of those, and give it a shot.’”

And here is an example of a somewhat guided trip:

 

 

Read, discuss. And those of you who have some actual experience, don't be shy. Even if you have to cook up a pseudonym just for this one diary.

 

Via Daring Fireball.

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A trip w. someone you're in a relationship with

(#285303)

can be pretty intense. 

 

I did it when I was in my early 20s. Having complete honesty and moving forward in that way was important to me, so I don't regret the vulnerability and breakdown of social constraints, which I understand is pretty common. 

 

I'm not sure I'd do it now, nevermind that my current partner isn't interested. Similarly for mushrooms.

 

I sometimes wonder what % of our art, tech, culture in general is the product of LSD or other trips. Much more than most people realize, I suspect. 

The Question Is

(#285304)

To frame it in conservative terms: Should the nanny state continue to ban it, and even ban controlled research? Or do we have a right to try whatever we want to try as long as we endanger nobody else's safety?

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

That hasn't been a live question for me since I was 17

(#285305)

A more interesting question to me is why people like you haven't experimented with drugs. You say your own mind is plenty interesting, but so are the minds of many people who report interesting experiences on these things.

 

Why would any curious person who knows even a little about hallucinogens not try them at least once?

Ha!

(#285309)

The guys I knew in High School who did drugs were not exactly inspiring. They spent their time back in the smoking area and were generally speaking quite low performers.

 

So that's part of it. Another part is that I feared addiction. I strongly disliked the notion of depending on a substance of any kind.

 

To this day I have no interest in most drugs. Certainly not pot or cocaine. I am not interested in a high. I am interested in insight. I did not know much about LSD at the time. If I had known Crick and Jobs had done it, I would have done further research for sure. I learned about that much, much later, and even then it seemed simply like a curious anecdote, a sign of their times.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Yep, my sediments exactly...

(#285338)

Said the geologist. My poison comes in bottles and I'm more than satisfied with the results. I've tried other stuff but nothing I'd care to try again though I might burn a little herb if it were legal. I have experienced too much variation in medication. Malaria and TB drugs had a list of side effects I never experienced but percocet floors me. Even alcohol gives me different reactions. Want a friendly guy that everyone loves, has tons of funny jokes and abeautiful singing voice? Then hand me whiskey and beer. Want to see someone get hit or their wife hit on, hand a bother some Jose C.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Getting trapped in a nightmare from which there is no waking

(#285320)

is something that, even though, it could be interesting, I think I'd pass on.

 

That was why in undergrad the most that I half-assedly experimented with was MDMA--was so pleasant that I resolved never to do it again--and good old weed (which made me feel slow, stupid, and tired, and so after a few tries I gave up).

"was so pleasant that I resolved never to do it again"

(#285327)

A tragedy of a Puritanical upbringing would be my guess.

 

We'd all be monks if we reasoned like that.

More fear of psychological addiction

(#285337)

Basically the same reason that I prefer Percocet to Vicodin. The one dulls pain, but the other feels good.  And I could easily see myself getting very, very used to it.  It's a thing of knowing myself and my limits.

Demerol...Once known as Doctor's Heroin is Very, Very Nice

(#285339)

 

....a fine warm glow and sense of well being...with yourself and the entire Universe. Very different than the stark reality of LSD.

 

I well understand why Doctor's are the professional group most prone to addiction...1st of course, access, but it is more than that....It is Access to the Good Sh^t....

 

Ahem, yes...

 

I looked it up and it is a little out of favor....if you're going to do morphine, just do morphine and not a derivative...or so the current logic goes.

 

Of course, having a real reason to take Demerol is always unhappy.

 

Best Wishes,  Traveller

 

 

Had morphine once

(#285346)

For a kidney stone. A wonderful painkiller. But dreaming was very unpleasant. I've noticed that with codeine as well. 

 

I found mushrooms to be quite pleasant, the one time I took them. I was never brave enough to take a full dose of LSD, but I enjoyed the taste I had. Mushrooms, though, don't seem to have the speedy effects of LSD, nor the long recovery. Took me about three days to feel normal again after LSD, and that was when I was 23. 

 

 

They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864

I mean

(#285347)

A friend of mine did all those things. And that's what he told me. 

They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864

"a fine warm glow and sense of well being"

(#285359)
brutusettu's picture

ya, the massive amount of pain from a major joint pointing the wrong way was finally fracking gone.

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

Similar experience here

(#285361)
HankP's picture

the fact that I could fall asleep while passing a kidney stone was more relief than pleasure.

I blame it all on the Internet

That's not psychological addiction, that's physical addiction

(#285341)
HankP's picture

all the opiates can cause physical addition to a greater or lesser degree.

 

I have to take a lot of opiates to get past the painkilling aspect and into the feeling good aspect. Probably why I've never been a big fan.

I blame it all on the Internet

Easy

(#285325)
stinerman's picture

The effect produced by the drug is not in any sense "real".

 

Like good old Dr. Wilson and the "Experience Machine"... millionaires in The Matrix are not millionaires any more than Luigi in my current saved game of Super Mario has 60-odd lives.  The millionaires are batteries.  We're all batteries.  We should be trying to understand what reality is rather than trying to chemically induce our brains to mislead us.

 

Intentionally misleading oneself regarding the state of reality is about dead last on the list of things I'd want to do.  Christ almighty, if you want to delude yourself, why that's what religion is for.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

Not true

(#285329)
HankP's picture

scientific studies have shown measurable results.

 

And as far as subjective results, unless you're going to argue that mental states don't exist I'm not sure what you're basing your opinion on.

I blame it all on the Internet

A wise gay wizard once said

(#285332)

"Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean it is not real?”

Maybe he's a Behaviorist nt

(#285335)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

Voldemort?

(#285336)

.

No, stinerman nt

(#285340)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

Volderman?

(#285342)

.

Stinermort? -nt-

(#285356)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Sounds Like A Beer Company That Sponsors "The Walking Dead" nt

(#285358)
M Scott Eiland's picture

.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

"Drink Stinermort, if it's the last thing you do." -nt-

(#285404)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Are you sure you're replying to me?

(#285400)
stinerman's picture

LSD as a therapeutic drug...now that might make sense.  If someone's physician suggests it, then by all rights, someone might want to try it.  I'm not saying LSD is bad, good, or indifferent.  I'm saying it's not for me.  In fact if LSD helps people get off the sauce, then lets put some money behind that research.

 

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

That's half of it

(#285407)
HankP's picture

but you also seem to be denying the existence of subjective effects. If I say it made me a better, more balanced person what evidence is there that my statement is not true?

I blame it all on the Internet

I'm not saying it can't

(#285412)
stinerman's picture

Go ahead.  Really,  I'm not stopping you.

 

Generally speaking, subjectivity is bad.  Maybe that's the sticking point.  I'm really not sure.

 

The only quibble I'd have with that statement is what objective metric we'd use to determine if you are a "better, more balanced" person.  I don't think there is an objective metric available.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

I think you're biting off more than you can chew

(#285414)
HankP's picture

because your line of thought is leading to the conclusion that happiness (a completely subjective state) doesn't exist and/or can't be proven.

I blame it all on the Internet

Once again

(#285417)
stinerman's picture

That's not what I mean.  I'm saying that you might think you're a better person for having used LSD, but maybe I think actually it has made you a worse person.  Note that I don't actually believe this, I'm just saying in a hypothetical.

 

The only person that should matter to you about the effects of drugs on your happiness and personality are what you think and perhaps your family.  What others think is inconsequential when dealing with inherently subjective subject matter.

 

Yes, there are actions that arise from taking drugs.  Some are subjectively good/bad and some are objectively good/bad.  I'm not debating that.  I'm debating whether or not it's better to be chemically happy or naturally miserable.  I take the latter approach.  The "oh, I took acid and it opened my eyes to all these possibilities about the world around me" argument is nonsense.  You only think it opened your eyes.  Your brain fooled you.  The only way to open your eyes is to apply the scientific method to a given hypothesis.

 

Now, I'll take the "oh, I took acid and it made me happier and more at peace with myself." argument as a given.  Only the consumer of drugs can say if they helped or hindered their mental status in the long or short term.  I definitely think it's inadvisable to take drugs to make yourself happier and more at peace with yourself given the risks.  Even if you can prove that there are no risks, it's still not my cup of tea.  I want to be happy via natural methods.  And if nothing natural makes me happy anymore or I could be a lot happier if I used [insert legal or illegal drug here], then I'll just have to be unhappy.

 

I'm an extremely independent person in my personal life.  Relying on a chemical to make me happy doesn't cut it for me.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

"Your brain fooled you"

(#285429)
HankP's picture

why is my brain fooling me about my results of my experiences but you're brain isn't fooling you about my results of my experiences? As Wagster says that seems kind of subjective, that your views on my thoughts are more valid than my views on my thoughts.

 

BTW, I made it clear that I don't recommend for or against it unless I know a person very well (no one here qualifies in that regard).

I blame it all on the Internet

Subjectivity is bad?

(#285423)

Sounds kind of subjective to me.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

IMO That Might Be Oversimplifying A Bit

(#285343)
M Scott Eiland's picture

After all, even something as mundane as caffeine or sugar alters how our brains work. I've never used anything illegal (other than a bit of underage drinking), but even in my limited experience I can say that I think more clearly when under the influence of caffeine, and my ability to recall obscure facts improves immensely after a drink or two (don't *ever* play Trivial Pursuit with me if I've been drinking--the result will be very one sided and not in your favor). It's well known that a lot of creative people work best when under the influence of something--though Coleridge's experience with Kubla Khan rather forcefully demonstrates the downside that can be involved even for a legendary work. Personally, I've had enough bad experiences due to sleep deprivation that I avoid hallucinogens like the plague, but I can see how the prospect of an altered state of consciousness steering one into a intellectual leap of some kind would tempt one to experiment.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

It more than that

(#285360)
HankP's picture

it assumes that the brain in its natural state is optimal and can't be improved. I don't think that's a valid assumption.

I blame it all on the Internet

Ok, a lot of people aren't understanding me

(#285401)
stinerman's picture

The question put to me was:

 

Why would any curious person who knows even a little about hallucinogens not try them at least once?

 

My answer was essentially "because they're hallucinogens".

 

I don't doubt for a minute that hallucinogens can help enhance creativity.  In fact, I'm pretty sure they do seeing that a good deal of popular music was written by people who were on such substances.  That doesn't change that fact that *I* am not interested in any way regarding how they might be able to "help" me.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

Check Your Assumptions

(#285345)

You are assuming that the brain, as is, is optimized to understand reality.

 

Do you realize just how weak an assumption this is?

 

In some ways the brain is optimized to process reality to guide our behavior from an evolutionary perspective. So if we are convinced by propaganda that we are fighting the "enemy", the brain conveniently forgets they are human too. A useful trait for survival of the tribe, but hardly a positive if your goal is to see everything as it truly is.

 

It's pretty clear that the brain is not at all optimized to perceive objective reality. It has filters. Simplifiers. Reality is incredibly complicated. Just imagine running a full simulation of a ride on a bus or subway. We ignore much of this because otherwise it would be hard to function. But sometimes these filters dull our senses.

 

I am not sure about the exact mechanisms but I certainly do find it totally plausible that drugs can shut down or reduce this kind of filtering and dulling to the point where you can perceive aspects of reality you would otherwise miss.

 

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Jobs's description seems apt

(#285353)

Taking LSD was a profound experience, one of the most important things in my life. LSD shows you that there’s another side to the coin, and you can’t remember it when it wears off, but you know it.

- Steve Jobs

I can meet you there

(#285403)
stinerman's picture

Sure, anything that changes your brain chemistry can make you perceive reality in a different way.  I'll buy that.

 

Let's go to dreams, because that's something I have experiences with.  The images and sounds that take place in my dreams are not an accurate depiction of something that actually occurred.  If I dreamt that I had sex with someone, I didn't actually have sex with anyone.  My brain fooled me into thinking I did.  This is a poor state of affairs, because my belief is not an accurate depiction of reality.  In fact, I was laying in bed, unconscious for hopefully 7.5 hours or more.  Similarly, if I take a hallucinogen and my brain fools me into thinking that I can see subatomic particles and know the nature of dark matter, this is also a poor state of affairs as people can't actually see subatomic particles (someday we may know the nature of dark matter).  In fact it sets me back a bit because I might follow a line of inquiry regarding subatomic particles or dark matter that is completely divorced from reality.

 

I suppose many of the folks here think that dreams have some sort of objective meaning.  The best I can say about my dreams is that from time to time, I'll consider them (when I wake up and remember them) for a few seconds, and if they stick with me, they might affect how I think about a particular issue as I consider how I acted in the dream.  No, that's not right.  In college, I would dream about answers to a mathematics proof I was working on the night before.  That's the best I can say about dreams.

 

In other words, if I dream about banging some broad, that doesn't actually mean I want to bang some broad.  Dreams have no objective meaning to me other than "heh, that was weird".

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

Hm, kind of dismissive towards dreams.

(#285408)

True, dreams don't generally help you solve practical, operational problems in your waking life. But dreaming does appear to fulfill several vital brain functions. REM sleep deprivation has been shown to inhibit neurogenesis and long-term memory formation. Rats deprived of REM sleep typically survive only about 5 weeks. 

 

REM sleep and dreams appear to perform a vital, pragmatic function whether or not they help us solve problems. I'd submit that it's worth taking time to understand a) how & why they work and b) how our own particular dreams might relate to our waking experiences.

 

For instance, dreaming that you did the no pants dance with someone might "fool" you into misperceiving reality, at least for the duration of the dream, but more interesting is the question of why your dreaming mind felt that particular illusion was more important than others. What need does it serve? How does it connect back to your waking experiences? What does it tell you about who you are, what you want, what you believe, etc.? Does it reveal some hidden connection between parts of your mind you don't normally connect in that way? Your brain is doing something while you sleep...working awful damned hard in fact for an organ that's supposed to be "resting"...figuring out what it's up to and why seems like not such a bad idea.

 

All that said, I'm down on the no hallucinogens thing. Life is confusing and difficult, choices are hard, hanging on to perceptions, ideas, goals, relationships, all requires a lot of work and luck. Truth is hard. Reality isn't just "there," it requires focus, artistry, acumen. Also, reality is profoundly weird all by itself. Why muck all that up with chemicals that warp the system?

 

I'm much more into the clear, lucid Apollonian life of the mind these days. To hell with sybaritic Dionysian chaos.

M Aurelius was probably right.

There's the point

(#285413)
stinerman's picture

I find the question as to why I dreamed what I did uninteresting.  I don't really think much of it.  They are usually funny stories.  That's about it.  The old lady thinks they mean something.  Until that's proven by the scientific method, the default position is to believe they mean nothing.  So I do.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

Whether they mean something or not, they *do* something.

(#285415)

Else the brain wouldn't use up valuable calories while you sleep. And that is proven by the scientific method. Figuring out what dreams do, and what what they do means, is what I'm getting at.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Not necessarily

(#285416)

Else the brain wouldn't use up valuable calories while you sleep

 

You're assuming that dreaming evolved for a reason, when it might be the opposite - e.g. dreaming is a remnant of previously much more serious irrationality,  that evolution hasn't finished cleaning up because it's not very important.

 

I read a theory someplace that all those ancient legends where someone hears a voice telling them to do something arose because people's minds actually worked differently then.  Thoughts were perceived as voices, and everyone (or almost everyone) back then had what we now consider schizophrenia,  and evolution only recently started disfavoring it.

It's not just the calories, it's the fact that REM sleep

(#285420)

appears to be necessary for long-term memory function, neurogenesis (i.e. growth of new brain cells...yes adult brains grow new cells continually), immune system integrity, and like I mentioned before, rats deprived of REM sleep die in a few weeks. 

 

All animals sleep. All animals seem to dream. All animals die if deprived of sleep, and it seems likely they all die if deprived of dream-sleep. The available scientific evidence suggests that dreaming is a vital physiological function, not a genetic vestige.

M Aurelius was probably right.

That's a different story

(#285418)
stinerman's picture

If you're talking about the physiological benefits of dreaming, then sure.  Lets find that out.  Why you dream about what you dream about is a lot harder question to answer and, I fear, is not a question we're going to answer in my lifetime.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

It seems worth asking now more than ever.

(#285430)

You don't decide to be hungry. You don't decide to want pepperoni pizza. You don't decide to become attracted to a particular person. You don't wake up one morning deciding to like blondes, or biker girls, or men or 12-year olds.

 

Many of the most important features of your life - needs, desires & tastes, fears, hatreds, ethical predilections, political inclinations - are generated by your brain with zero input from you. We live in a world were people's inclinations, and our own, can have profound impacts upon our day-to-day existences. 

 

Figuring out how the brain comes up with this crap is worthwhile, arguably necessary, and maybe even possible.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Dreams are a useful tool

(#285422)

To explore yourself and what's going on in your head. I don't know how you can not see the connection... if you've ever had a stressful period in your life and woken up in a cold sweat, you know your daytime mind is connected to your nighttime mind.

 

Whether what they "mean" can be proven by scientific method is beside the point. We have many pharmaceutical drugs in our arsenal today, where we do not know exactly how they work. All we really need to know is that they are a useful tool. That's what dreams can be... a way of investigating how you feel about things.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Most of what goes on in your head isn't reality

(#285421)

It's fiction. It's stories you tell about your past, present, and future... about yourself, others, your relation to others... to explain, to rationalize, to predict, to deny, to mope, to preen. Your head is a big fuzzball of fiction called your self. It colors your every waking moment. When you actually encounter the sensorial and immediate experience of life, devoid of the fictions that are usually superimposed over it, it is shocking. You don't necessarily need LSD to do it, but it's not a common experience.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

And Interesting Recent Theory is that Sleep is Protection Device

(#285432)

 

 

...and dreams are just entertainment to keep you asleep.

 

Here is how the theory works...Nighttime is dangerous for people...always has been, we sleep to keep ourselves from wandering and stumbling around in the dark...a distinct evolutionary detriment...so we sleep.

 

Babies sleep the most because they are the most prone to be harmed or harm themselves.

 

Older people sleep much less because, first because they are more sensitive to the dangers in the darkness, and also because their evolutionary role having been played out...it is, from a natural selection standpoint, much less important to keep old people alive, so they sleep less.

 

That's what they're saying.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

What do dreams have to do with this?

(#285437)

Taking LSD won't put you to sleep. You are fully awake.

 

In dreams, your eyes are shut and your mind is for the most part decoupled from external stimulus. This is not what happens with hallucinogens at all.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Depends on how you feel about the universe, and your place in it

(#285306)

Maybe your universe is a place of warmth and trust, dominated by your relationships with friends and family and dropping acid will unleash your inner party on a cosmic scale. Maybe yours is an exciting, intellectual universe full of endless new discoveries and the amazing achievements in knowledge and the arts attained by you and by other human beings. Or maybe you contain deep wells of spiritual, religious belief untapped by your local priest, preacher, rabbi yogi or imam, and a psychedelic experience is likely to open you to a vast, cosmic ecstasy of togetherness with other beings like you, beings of light and love experiencing the infinite joy of a reunion that transcends death.

 

On the other hand, you might be haunted by personal terrors, sadistic, disturbing visions & paranoid projections. And maybe if you manage to see through the veil you'll find that the truth of "one love, one mind" turns out to be a cosmic nightmare, an infinite schizoid solipsism in which death is a horror and the possibility of life after death an even greater one. A cold, terrifying infinity of loneliness masked by occasional delusion: this is what it means to be "god."

 

Dr. Leary used the term "set and setting" to prescribe the rules for a good trip, but I think it goes far beyond that. You should be prepared to confront your own personal cosmology, including your mortality -- for better or for worse. It may not happen, of course...for some people tripping seems like just another kind of intoxication. It's fun, funny, confusing, pleasant, a bit like dreaming while awake, but by no means does it involve any kind of unhinging spiritual journey. Or you might come unstuck in time and space, collapsing your proprioception and your sense of "you right now" into an infinite, simultaneous aggregation of all possible nows across all possible worlds. It can be exhausting to live through an infinity of time.

 

The film Donnie Darko pulls off a pretty good approximation.

 

I strongly recommend against trying it. There are truths about life that are better left unexplored unless you have some great and pressing need for cosmic visions.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Been There

(#285310)

A cold, terrifying infinity of loneliness masked by occasional delusionA cold, terrifying infinity of loneliness masked by occasional delusionA cold, terrifying infinity of loneliness masked by occasional delusionA cold, terrifying infinity of loneliness masked by occasional delusion:

 

Been there. I was big on astronomy back in the day. I still track developments. I had moments where I could actually lie down and look at the sky and feel the earth spinning in a monstrous void, as if the planet were just a few dozen feet in diameter. Cool and scary and overwhelming at the same time. Doesn't really happen anymore. It would last 30 seconds to a couple of minutes.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Bad Journey, Though Memorable....

(#285315)

....many decades ago, on the shores of the South China Sea, on leave from a war zone....maybe it had to be bad, but it was the loss of control of my mind (and of course, loss of physical control of my body also), were difficult to endure...worse, it was the unknowing with any present certainty that I could get back that was....very difficult.

 

For hours and hours and hours...an eternity of uncertainty.

 

I have not and would not do it again.

 

But it was memorable.

 

For sure.

 

How these waves and ripples have washed over my life I cannot tease out from the fabric of my existence, but wash over & influence they undoubtedly did.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

I'm actually going on a minor astronomy kick now.

(#285318)

There are so many utterly bizarre, cool theories abounding (or given some rejuvenating experimental umph) at the moment that it makes me feel better about the soulless, measureless emptiness of space. :)

 

Some for-instances: 

 

Cosmic Inflation - turns out that empty space might not be empty. Enter vacuum energy, a gee-whiz theoretical field of force that helps explain why the observable universe can be 93 billion light-years across even though the universe itself is only 13.75 billion years old, in addition to why the universe appears to be expanding at an increasing rate. A number of interesting implications, some awesome...

 

Multiverse Theory - like Max Tegmark's taxonomy of IV levels of multiple universes. The Level I multiverse is simply the universe that we're living in which, assuming an eternal inflation model, would be infinitely ergodic. What this means is that outside of our own Hubble sphere are infinite other Hubble spheres which in aggregate and by the 1000 monkeys principle realize all initial conditions of the Big Bang. This means doppelganger universes (and infinite shades of similarity in other universes, and then infinitely bizarre & different universes) are a simple mathematical/probabilistic fact. (Tegmark estimates your nearest doppelganger is in a universe no more than 10^10^^28 meters away, and the nearest exact copy of our Hubble sphere down to the last atom is no more than 10^10^115 meters away.)

 

Level II multiverses, again assuming chaotic ergodic inflation, are those "bubbles" of non-inflationary space between vast, still-inflating swathes of the omniverse. Within each of those bubbles is a Level I multiverse, and each bubble can have different spontaneous symmetry breaking, and hence different physical constants (speed of light, force of gravity, cosmological constant, etc.). Traveling to a different Level II multiverse could involve bizarre Lovecraftian shifts in fundamental physical law that we would find profoundly disturbing (or wonderful) and almost certainly lethal.

 

Level III multiverses are extrapolations of quantum mechanics, superposition, and the Shroedinger's Cat paradox. The notion that reality itself is continually splitting and merging into complex multiple dimensions is both distressing and hard to comprehend. Level IV multiverses, good effing luck...Tegmark says that any world calculable by mathematics is also real, in what dimension or aspect of reality I have no clue.

 

...and some frickin terrifying, like the proposed Vacuum Metastability Event, whereby a "false" equilibrium vacuum at one region of space undergoes "vacuum decay" and a nearby, lower-energy vacuum gets "nucleated," expanding spherically at near the speed of light and gobbling up the higher-energy vacuum surrounding it pretty much infinitely...

The possibility that we are living in a false vacuum has never been a cheering one to contemplate. Vacuum decay is the ultimate ecological catastrophe; in the new vacuum there are new constants of nature; after vacuum decay, not only is life as we know it impossible, so is chemistry as we know it. However, one could always draw stoic comfort from the possibility that perhaps in the course of time the new vacuum would sustain, if not life as we know it, at least some structures capable of knowing joy. This possibility has now been eliminated.

I'm also enjoying reading about the progress of discovering new planets and planetoids, including some really strange places. Rogue planets, cruising through starless regions of space, brown dwarfs, planets which orbit tiny pulsars utterly sterilized by x-ray bombardment, gas giants that've had their atmospheres blasted away down to a rocky core, etc.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Very Interesting, But Where Do I Fit Into All of This?!?

(#285321)

...I of course understand none of this...but concede that the Vacuum theory of the Universe is intriguing....

 

But If I felt small and weak against the immensity of the forces and darkness which I inhabit, (dark forces?), then if the (Multi) Universe is really this....full of existential weirdness...I am smaller yet...in a vaster confusion of particles and inherently unstable probabilities...

 

(I'll read more links later...back to work, people are waiting)

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

If minds are properties of brains, can they also be

(#285322)

properties of other things? For example, properties of computing devices? Can the mind corresponding to one brain also correspond to a different brain?

 

Catchy studies stuff like this. Maybe he can tell us.

 

Anyhow, if the mind is somehow fungible, and able to translate into other brain-states, then maybe it can move from one multiverse to another. 

 

M Aurelius was probably right.

I did study this stuff when I was younger and handsomer

(#285352)

If minds are properties of brains, can they also be properties of other things?

 

Yes, b/c mental properties are multiply realizable properties. They are analogous to properties like "being a key", where keys can be made out of lots of different stuff. You can probably make minds out of lots of different stuff too.

 

Can the mind corresponding to one brain also correspond to a different brain?

 

​Over time, yes. At the same time, no.

 

if the mind is somehow fungible, and able to translate into other brain-states, then maybe it can move from one multiverse to another.

 

​Yes. That is possible on the assumption that the multiverse exist and that brain-state transfer devices are also possible. 

 

These are just my opinions of course.

Wait a minute

(#285354)
HankP's picture

You can probably make minds out of lots of different stuff? Where has this ever been observed?

 

Can the mind corresponding to one brain also correspond to a different brain? Once again, what's the evidence for that?

 

I blame it all on the Internet

Low-level mental states in AI systems for one

(#285362)

And the arguments behind the theory that mental states implement certain kinds of computational functions. 

 

Of course since we haven't encountered intelligent aliens or built fully intelligent AI systems, it might be the case that only brain material can realize certain mental states. That's an open empirical question, and a guy named John Searle at UC Berkeley believes that.

 

But I think the best guess is that it's untrue. It's hard to see what about brain matter in particular would warrant believing that only it among all the possible arrangements of matter could have certain causal powers.

 

But there aren't any knock-down arguments here, just better and worse hunches to guide research.

AI systems don't have mental states

(#285363)
HankP's picture

they have binary states that can (through clever programming) approximate the behavior of analog states. Neural systems are not binary, they have a much more complicated set of ionic and neurotransmitter behaviors.

I blame it all on the Internet

Now we're just haggling

(#285395)

over the number of bits.

No, it's a bit more than that

(#285398)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

You're just being circuitous. -nt-

(#285399)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Dang, preview cuts off right as he's about to define

(#285355)

psychological continuity. I wonder how he defines it. In my experience, consciousness is fairly discontinuous. We sleep, we dream, we spend several hours probably not dreaming, or dreaming on different levels. We get hit in the head, experience amnesia, disorientation. Consciousness from childhood to adulthood is replete with gaps. Ordinary memory loss.... Psychological breaks are fairly common, but our brains seem to be pretty good at patching together discontinuous moments and attributing them to the "same" person, i.e. us. 

 

I'd say that consciousness is more like a quilt than a blanket. Maybe an afghan. If it's "continuous," it isn't temporally or contiguously, but rather through similarities among disconnected memories.

 

Tchuang Tzu's famous story about the butterfly dreaming that it is Tchuang Tzu comes to mind. I think Tchuang was actually pretty sure he was still Tchuang, but he's right that if an experience can create the feeling of "me-ness," as dreams can, then we can't be sure.

 

In which case, discontinuity may not be a dealbreaker? 

 

Anyhow, it's gracious of you, pretending that you could be handsomer.

M Aurelius was probably right.

The same place you've always been

(#285323)
HankP's picture

you're a creature that has enough intelligence and self awareness to determine your own direction and meaning of life.

I blame it all on the Internet

It is a very intense experience

(#285316)
HankP's picture

I'm not sure if the word "intense" is powerful or descriptive enough. But it's also truly consciousness expanding in a way that's difficult or impossible to do otherwise. Aside from the visual and auditory effects, the best way for me to describe it is that it breaks down certain internal barriers in your thought processes to make you far more intuitive than is ordinarily possible. It also allows (or in extreme cases forces) one to more fully integrate various aspects of one's personality. If you're reasonably well adjusted and have an optimistic view on life, it's a very affirmative experience. But if you have fears or personal demons, they can come to the fore. I think the more spiritual self examination you've done prior to the experience the more likely you are to view it positively. But then again, there are people who just see it as an incredible light and sound show and leave it at that. But I have to say that the usual categories of "happy" or "sad" people doesn't really predict how the drug will affect someone.

 

It's a very powerful drug that demands respect. It's nothing like having a few beers or smoking a joint. I'm generally in favor of drug legalization, but for some drugs (like LSD and heroin), I wouldn't feel comfortable having it available at the local 7-11. I've known people who had to be (briefly) institutionalized because they were careless and didn't respect the power of the experience. I've also known people who were very unhappy with the revelations they experienced, although in most cases they used their knowledge to work on the things they weren't happy about.

 

I'm not sure I buy the whole idea of a guided trip, but it is a good idea to have someone around who's been through it before. I've had to talk a few friends through difficult trips and the fact that I knew what they were experiencing helped a lot. It's also imperative that it be experienced in a relatively safe place that you're familiar with, you don't want any major surprises since your perceptions are so altered.

 

I do think it can be a life altering experience, several times it has been for me. It let me know who I was in a way that I hadn't before. It also provides insights into friends and lovers that you experience it with. That's obviously a double edged sword, and can be the source of problems. I saw the episode of Mad Men that you linked to in the video, and I thought that the conversation between Roger and his wife afterwards was the most accurate part of the scene. Roger could intuit her feelings and realized his own.

 

The quote I've heard used to describe the experience is from William Blake's Auguries of Innocense -

 

To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.

 

but it's actually a quote from further in the poem that I think is more apt -

 

It is right it should be so;
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

 

Joy and woe are woven fine,
A clothing for the soul divine.
Under every grief and pine
Runs a joy with silken twine.

 

at it's best, it can help one to become a more integrated and balanced human being.

 

 

I blame it all on the Internet

And this is exactly why I never did acid (or 'shrooms)

(#285319)

when I was younger:  I tend to have vivid, horrible nightmares--eyeless babies, insects, tentacles, demons, etc.--and the notion of being stuck in a nightmare for hours on end while the s**t processes out of your system is to horrific for me to contemplate.  I like to be able to wake up if a nightmare becomes too intense.

You could handle the military, but not hallucinogens

(#285326)

I would guess that you have a slightly exaggerated set of worries.

 

Might I suggest that while HankP is right that you want to "respect" LSD in particular, these worries about anguishing nightmares from which you cannot escape are likely exaggerated. For LSD or other hallucinogen you have reason to believe are of a strong variety, you can just start by taking smaller doses. 

 

Especially with shrooms my extensive experience is that almost all of the time you can talk yourself into being aware that you're on drugs.  

 

Also, it does end even if it's a bad trip. Also also, it's kind of nice to know that you can handle a negative mental experience and tame it. In my case even the bad times gave me mental confidence in other settings - e.g., social anxiety doesn't seem like such a big deal, etc.  

Like I said, depends on how well you & the universe get along.

(#285333)

Yes, provided you don't massively overdose you can control/mitigate a "bad trip" (i.e. paranoia, waking nightmares, etc.), but if you do enough to dissociate your sense of time & proprioception, then you're bringing upon yourself 6-8 (seemingly infinite) hours of very intimate acquaintance with your own mortality, corporeality, and the fairly disturbing contingency of your own identity. You can, in other words, experience or realize things that don't go away when the drug metabolizes out.

 

Shrooms are generally much milder and tend not to unplug the primary circuits of your identity...you're still you, albeit high.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I agree with that

(#285350)

You're an expert like me.

Not at all.

(#285351)

More like someone who should never have tried that stuff. :)

M Aurelius was probably right.

I would never recommend for or against it

(#285331)
HankP's picture

unless it was someone I knew really well. There are dangers, but there are benefits as well.

I blame it all on the Internet

"breaks down certain internal barriers in your thought processes

(#285334)

them's the benefits.

 

One theory is that it disables your normal channels of thought to such an extent that you have to open up much less familiar channels in order to accomplish any mental tasks at all.

 

And those provide new ways of looking at even completely ordinary surroundings.

 

But acid is a young person's drug IMO. Who can afford to spend that kind of time on something so frivolous and put up with the hangover on an aging body?

 

I haven't messed around with it in well over a decade and would never select it over mushrooms or ketamine. 

Those are the effects

(#285357)
HankP's picture

I think the benefits or drawbacks depend on what you do with those effects. Like happy vs. angry drunks.

I blame it all on the Internet

The best written treatment

(#285425)

On the psychedelic experience that I've read is Huxley's "Doors of Perception".

 

His thesis is that psychedelics open the filters in our brains that reduce the full potency and range of experience, so that we might survive day to day without being overwhelmed. He says that the great artists already had these filters opened for them, with or without drugs. When I tripped I used to pore over art books, and indeed, LSD can help you see a woman as Picasso did, or a chair as Van Gogh did.

 

 

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Incredibly relevant SNL skit.

(#285330)

‘Here’s the keys, pick one of those, and give it a shot.’

(#285348)

Umm, there aren't any keys.

 

So we've established that Doocy & the rest of the idiots at Fox don't do LSD, but what are they on?

 

 

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

it's the healing power of opium I will now praise

(#285364)

Generally, one can never be certain how much if any LSD is on the blotter paper. Or what else. In any case, I've tried it a few times, 'a trip to visit Uncle Sid' was pretty much de rigueur among computer folk during the 80's, but I was never terribly impressed by its effects, which were fun and fascinating but not world shattering.

My few experiences with mushrooms and peyote were more significant, and I was also sure of what I was ingesting. One should experience the oneness of the universe at least once and a little psychedelics or a lot of meditation can do the trick.

You could have put more emphasis on the healing capabilities of LSD. Not for nothing do they call it a drug. I know there was effective LSD therapy for alcoholics before the squares put an end to it. But it's the healing power of opium I will now praise. I was once blessed by a hat trick of healing thanks to a dozen pipes of the stuff. I think I'd eaten a lunch consisting mostly of rancid lard on a very bumpy road trip in the area of Asia known as the golden triangle. The lunch had given me a bout of diarrhea and the bumps on the road had re-inflamed a not quite fully mended broken rib. After arriving at my destination and consulting with the medicine man, the diarrhea and the pain in my side was no more and I liken the the resulting euphoria to dallying on the suspension bridge connecting the land of waking to the land of dreams. Nothing world shattering but it remains the best bit of medicating, self prescribed or otherwise, I've had the pleasure to experience.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Well They Didn't Outlaw the "O" for Nothing...Good Stuff...nt

(#285365)

Traveller

Sigh...Ah, Yes...DMT....(the final jolt juice)

(#285366)

DMT Traveller

I got up this a.m. and read the new drug comments in this diary

(#285372)

And it was like eating a Twinkie for breakfast.

 

I do not want to think about acid and opium in the morning. I'm warming to the topic, but this is a night-time diary.  

So start a coffee/caffeine diary nt

(#285377)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

Nothing like

(#285424)

a Bud and a bong hit for breakfast.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

When I'm in NYC

(#285431)
HankP's picture

we should meet for breakfast.

I blame it all on the Internet

Heh...

(#285436)

We'll have some sort of mischief for you.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

how about some state sponsored 'mind diminishment'?

(#285433)

The writer Terence McKenna said the following:

"Somehow, the changing of consciousness is deemed to be threatening to the State. Now why is that? Is the State somehow playing a shell game that would be exposed if the people were to actually open their eyes? In what ways does the expansion of consciousness threaten industrial democracies? I think we need real answers to this."

That was almost 20 years ago and the drugs discussed here are still every bit illegal now as they were back then.

How about state-sanctioned, legal research into mind-bending drugs? Well, following on from McKenna, it's not consciousness expanding drugs which would expect to be researched, but consciousness diminishing drugs. I realized this recently on hearing an interview with Molly Crockett by the hosts of the "Philosophy Bites" radio show.  http://www.mollycrockett.com/

http://philosophybites.com/2012/07/molly-crockett-on-brain-chemistry-and...

It was the most chilling thing I've heard in a long time.

There is a game in experimental economics where a 'proposer' offers a 'responder' a sum of money which he can accept or reject. Both know that there is, say, $100 at stake and the proposer can offer any part of it to the responder. If the responder accepts, they divide the money accordingly and if the responder rejects the offer, neither of them get any money. Classical economics predicts that the responder will accept any offer. He will take even $1, leaving $99 to the proposer because that would still leave him a dollar ahead and that's better than nothing. This game has been played many times in practice and offers of $1 are overwhelmingly rejected. Offers straying a little too far from $50 into the territory of 'unfairness' are rejected, regardless of the irrationality of the move. So much for the classical economist's views of human motives and behaviour.

Here is where Molly Crockett comes in. She talks of playing the same game, only this time with the slight change of dosing the respondents with serotonin. And those dosed respondents will say 'yes' to any offer put before them. How she gushes over the results! In other words, the research is about altering human consciousness in order to make it conform to the heretofore simplistic and erroneous models of classical economics. Rather than rejecting these models, they are embraced with renewed vigour, strengthened by the power of pharmaceuticals. Consciousness diminishment is reducing the rich complexity of our motives and behaviour to something grotesquely simple, state-serviceable and alien. Only a brain chemist working in an economics department could come up with something like this.

I don't deny that the results are interesting. I wonder if the serotonin was also given to the proposer and whether it had any effect on his behaviour... (no mention in the interview)

 

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Be careful about jumping to conclusions

(#285435)

The drug probably just made them mellow and generous rather than the hyper-rational benefit-maximizers of classical economists' imagination.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

I know enough about serotonin and

(#285441)

I hadn't thought of the drug turning people into Mr Spock think-a-likes. The idea is less scary to me than research on turning people into compliant lotus eaters. That this is the kind of work legitimate is funded and encouraged in our universities is unsettling.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

So much for "completely subjective" results

(#285642)
HankP's picture

In surveys administered shortly after their LSD-enhanced creativity sessions, the study volunteers, some of the best and brightest in their fields, sounded like tripped-out neopagans at a backwoods gathering. Their minds, they said, had blossomed and contracted with the universe. They’d beheld irregular but clean geometrical patterns glistening into infinity, felt a rightness before solutions manifested, and even shapeshifted into relevant formulas, concepts, and raw materials.

 

But here’s the clincher. After their 5HT2A neural receptors simmered down, they remained firm: LSD absolutely had helped them solve their complex, seemingly intractable problems. And the establishment agreed. The 26 men unleashed a slew of widely embraced innovations shortly after their LSD experiences, including a mathematical theorem for NOR gate circuits, a conceptual model of a photon, a linear electron accelerator beam-steering device, a new design for the vibratory microtome, a technical improvement of the magnetic tape recorder, blueprints for a private residency and an arts-and-crafts shopping plaza, and a space probe experiment designed to measure solar properties. Fadiman and his colleagues published these jaw-dropping results and closed shop.

 

[link]

I blame it all on the Internet

Since the evidence is so compelling

(#285643)

that LSD is to scientific creativity as steroids are to athletics,  there are some questions that need to be answered:

 

- Should competitive scientific activities (like going after NSF grants) test for usage, and disqualify users, in the interest of fairness?

- Or should employers require employees doing creative work to take LSD,  on the theory that if they don't they aren't putting forth their best professional effort?

- If CEOs and CTOs of innovation based tech firms fail to take LSD,  are they committing Honest Services fraud, in violation of federal law?  It seems they have an obligation to the stockholders to take the drug if it will results in new products and an enhanced IP portfolio.