Because my brain works in strange ways, the exchange between Jordan and Micky about possible marginal benefit arising from mass killings got me thinking about time machines, because the "classic" argument for the possible use of a time machine is probably to go back a few decades and, say, gun down the future leadership of the Nazi Party in 1925, or Lenin & Associates by 1910 or so, thereby presumably saving a whole mess of lives (better do both, since the two did a good job of crippling each other enough that the Free World eventually managed to prevail). Of course, we know from fiction that this never works,, but it raises the question: suppose we could make every physicist in existence cry like a baby by making a functional time machine, albeit one with certain limitations. What would you do with it? This diary asks that question, and invites responses.
Of course, we need rules:
1. The machine can send one person and as much luggage as someone going on an around the world trip could reasonably take with them. Once there, you will need to be able to arrange for the movement of the luggage by locally available means, meaning that overloading the suitcases beyond their normally intended capacity is not recommended;
2. You may take any item with you that you could reasonably obtain via purchase and obtaining appropriate permits--meaning that small arms are likely OK, but heavy weapons are not. Nuclear weapons are right out;
3. If you are discovered with anachronistic technology by authorities and arrested, your trip will end immediately. To compensate for this, you will not be subject to random searches within the borders of the country you arrive in--but customs will apply if you cross international borders, so any anachronistic technology or illegal items will be found;
4. You may obtain any specialized training you believe you will need for the trip (and which you honestly believe you have the ability to learn with time), but you must take the usual amount of time to obtain it, adding that amount of time to your current age to determine your starting age for the trip;
5. Time is assumed to be fluid enough that any changes you make will not wipe you, your friends, or your families out of existence--and if you try to do so intentionally your trip ends immediately (stop being a wise@$$!);
6. You may, within the limits of your ability to gather and deliver the means to do so, take one action that either kills people who otherwise lived or saves people who otherwise died (you can do this for an event only involving animals, plants, and/or major structures if you choose to), thereby ending your trip. If you die during this action, your trip ends at that point and events will proceed from that point without further interference--you will appear back at the time and place of your departure at the same age you were when you left with all of your memories of the trip and all of your possessions of the trip;
7. You may stay indefinitely if you confine yourself to actions that do not directly impact history at the time. You may (using technology available at the time, or with modern technology you brought back with you with the risk of discovery) duplicate books, take pictures, or otherwise store information and take it back with you when you go back. Again subject to available means, you may collect seeds or animal DNA samples to take back with you, but no living animals or plants (including bacteria, viruses, or other such life). You can either decide to go back voluntarily, wait to die of old age, disease, or misfortune, or wait until the moment you went to the past in the first place--any of which will result in you appearing at the time and place of your departure with all of the memories of your trip and all of your current possessions from the trip.
8. If you tell anyone in the past you are a time traveler, your trip ends immediately (might be useful if Gavrilo Princip is about to shoot you in the face and you'd really rather not deal with that).
Part of the fun of this, of course, is pointing out to me where I have left loopholes that will allow you to shamelessly abuse the process.
Good luck! (-:
You are assuming a trip to the past.
(#285010)How about going to the future? That's what I would do.
I'd go there, see who is alive today that should not die (or should), come back and take proper action.
I'd also check out the stock quotes.
Here is the thing about the past. Despite the Nazis and so on, the species has survived so far in fairly reasonable shape. Yes, all those 20th century deaths were a terrible tragedy and devastated so many millions of lives. But the future could be far, far worse. I'd look for a species-threatening event in the future and figure out how to nip it in the bud once I am back.
And, like I said, check out some stock quotes.
I'd go with money. Depending on how far into the future, this would be trickier. It's also important not to overshoot. If I get there too late, I won't be able to find out much.
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
That's The Problem With The Future
(#285015)If the Earth gets hit with a society level apocalypse event or worse before your target date, you're in for a short trip, even though the methodology of the machine would bring you back alive. As limited as going to the past is in many ways, at least you know there will be a planet and human society there (unless you go *really* far back)* to interact with.
*--as Chucko discovered:
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Well, your rules...
(#285018)...place no limits on the number of times one could travel, only on the number of times one could intervene.
Also, I figure over 100 years is too long. It becomes increasingly less likely that one would understand what was going on. Culture, language, technology, and so on.
I think people from 1912 could understand our current society and technology. People from 1812, not so much. People from 1962, certainly.
So I would head forward 100 years, and if the planet was toast, try 50, then do a binary search till I hit the correct year. So with six or seven trips max I'd find the proper time.
If everything was fine in 100 years, then what a prize that would be. I'd check the stock quotes...
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
Well Played
(#285020)Though I would be concerned that if civilization *had* endured that far out, the time machine being used might be obsolete technology that the inhabitants of the time had been able to take countermeasures against in order to avoid blowing up *their* timeline. Best to go backwards and avoid technologically superior potential opponents (unless aliens really did meddle on Earth in the past).
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Here is my issue with going backwards.
(#285085)As I said before, things are not great now but not dreadful either. Since interventions are unpredictable, I can easily envision a person making matters worse, as in the Hitler examples mentioned by others here. Or you save JFK and he turns out to be a raving lunatic in his second term and pushed the button. Who the heck knows?
But if I check out the future and it truly sucks, as in apocalyptic sucks, billions starving to death or turned into glass or nanobot food, then I can act with confidence that whatever I attempt, the chance of making things worse than that is quite low.
Another advantage is that by scouting forward and then returning, I have far more resources and knowledge available to act in my own time.
I am not worried about opponents. A civilization that has the time and resources to worry about time travelers is not the kind that would require help.
A concern would be information gathering. We tend to assume that an apocalyptic scenario would be visible. We would see it happen and know who did it. In reality, many scenarios would be opaque. You wake up, the lights are out, the radio off, Internet down, and there are zombies in the street who want to eat your brain. You don't know what happened and have no way to find out, then you die. A nuclear exchange started by a psychotic missile operator would be like that. Everybody would be toast for no apparent reason.
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
I think even the most psychotic missile operator
(#285125)would take the time to tweet it before hand or at least update his Facebook status.
preciousbodilyfluids.tumblr.com :) -nt-
(#285130).
M Aurelius was probably right.
Time Machine in a Vat
(#285014)How do we know we're back in time and not in some sort of holodeck?
Risk adverse people do not like this time machine you speak of.
"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."
Major Kong
This is fun.
(#285021)I would go back to the late 15th century, and persuade Domenico Columbus into a game of chance on the night of the conception of Christopher.
Anybody else to discover the Americas.
literally anything can become right or wrong if the dominant class of the moment so wills it
"America has never been discovered.
(#285035)I myself would say that it had merely been detected."
- The Picture of Dorian Gray
M Aurelius was probably right.
Go back to the 90s
(#285041)And buy lots of Microsoft, Yahoo, Ebay, and Amazon. Then go to Florida in 2000 and raise a big stink about the butterfly ballot.
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
Stop trying to make people write fan fiction!
(#285045)Doh! Temptation... too strong... can't resist....
PREPARATION
Let's see, I'll need to spend 3-4 years getting a medical degree with a strong emphasis in chemistry (and some mathematics, astronomy on the side), then a couple years of residency (trauma surgery or pathology). My age of departure will be around 45.
LUGGAGE
Gore-Tex or other suitable all-weather outdoor gear & a couple changes of clothes, a full set of chem lab glassware securely packed, pistol, rifle, knife, a goodly supply of ammo, emergency food rations. Glassworking equipment; cutter, calipers & the like (I'll need the carborundum blades). A sample set of modern vaccines (MMR, D/T, polio, smallpox). A small surgical kit. Reference materials (books) will take up the remainder. I'll be traveling with lightweight aluminum wheeled crates.
WHERE I'M GOING
The Mid-Atlantic seaboard of North America.
WHEN I'M GOING
Approximately 1400 A.C.E.
WHAT I'M DOING
The plan is to gradually introduce modern medicine and modern global disease resistances into the tribal societies along the East Coast...Iroquois, Mohawks, Cherokee and others of the "five civilized tribes" and their neighbors. I'll be received as a kind of medicine man, and assuming I don't get scalped along the way, I'll help build a new federation of tribes protected from European disease, armed with advanced agricultural techniques, metallurgy, literacy and a modern calendar, and ready to begin contacting the Mesoamerican and Caribbean empires by mid-century or so, along with Canadian tribes to the north and to the western plains.
By 1492, instead of encountering thriving neolithic empires and all but wiping them out with Eurasian diseases, Columbus and his followers are going to find a weakening Aztec state beginning to be dominated (but in a fairly enlightened way) by a rising, powerful nascent steel-age nation(s) to the north. Instead of nations scattered and crippled even before their arrival by imported diseases, Europeans will find burgeoning, partially Europeanized populations fully ready to engage in international trade -- or to respond in kind to hostilities if it comes to that.
The great dislocations & expansions of the 16th-18th centuries will never take place. The Atlantic slave trade will be greatly diminished, the great emigration from Europe curtailed, and Europe will be forced to confront the political problems of its own modernization without recourse to exporting nearly all of its conflicts to the New World.
WHEN I'LL RETURN
Assuming I live that long, I'd come back after 20 years or so. That should be enough time to set the wheels in motion, so I'll retire from my career as demiurge at the traditional age of 65.
CAVEATS
Your rules #3 and #7 could be nearly impossible to comply with, depending on how strictly they're interpreted. If you go back with several suitcases full of anything, you'll be introducing more than enough anachronistic technology -- modern textiles, firearms, books -- to change the course of history. Hell, even if you go back naked, Terminator-style, you'd still be a living anachronism. My mouth alone could change the course of dentistry & medical metallurgy. Speech patterns, modern concepts & notions of science & the material world could all have profound influence on whatever society you mingle with. Your genetic material, antibodies & other immune responses would profoundly impact any microbic life you come in contact with (and subsequently spread to others).
In short, physically going back in time invariably changes history in inalterable ways.
MONKEYWRENCH
If I wanted to be a wiseass, I'd say I'd go back in time to the earliest moment at which people could take advantage of the knowledge, then teach them the technique of time travel. :)
M Aurelius was probably right.
Edit: almost forgot
(#285048)it'd be a good idea to study the Iroquois & other tribal languages & cultures a bit before heading out.
M Aurelius was probably right.
Very Clever
(#285094)Not sure if it would work. Kind of hard without a written language, so you'd need to implement that as well. The Cherokee did develop a written language with their own alphabet, under the influence of the English alphabet. You could study Cherokee and take it back with you. It's actually their own language and writing system, so you would be speeding up something that would have happened anyway.
But, Cherokee from 1400 might be substantially different from Cherokee from 1830. Still, it's a good starting point.
If you want to do metallurgy, take some mineral maps along as well. One problem: slow travel. No horses (Europeans brought that). Those 20 years might not be nearly as much time as you think.
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
Balloons!
(#285103)I'd forgotten about horses (damn!), but with a pretty good handle on chemistry I'd be able to get by with air travel (and share the techniques). I did mention bringing literacy...and of course I'd learn Cherokee before going back (though I'd probably stick with Roman transliterations and really blow European minds when they got here).
20 years would only be enough time to set things in motion. The important thing would be to try to keep technology from outrunning politics, to try and ease the transition from tribal federation to modern nation (or at least give it good foundations). Luckily the eastern tribes already had relatively strong traditions of integrity & fair trade, respect for strangers, shared resources & public goods, etc. Could those qualities survive a period of rapid technological change and consequent population explosion? Dunno.
M Aurelius was probably right.
If you build in sustainability...
(#285113)...which would not be hard considering that they already had their seventh generation thing going.
It's not so much about teaching them sustainability, which they already understood. It's about showing them science and technology approached from a sustainability standpoint. So you'd need to get up to speed on that too.
No coal mining and burning, for example. Plenty of power from small hydro, solar for steam.
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
Hm, hydro and solar aren't going to help against
(#285115)Europeans with steam engines. Maybe nuclear? Iroquois nuclear science, anyone?
M Aurelius was probably right.
Sure they would...
(#285117)Because Europeans had no steam engines in 1492, or the 1600's even. In this period of history, even low-tech solar power would blow away anything the Europeans could do, by an order of magnitude or more.
And you can make electricity, with generators or batteries, and that would really be a huge advantage. Europeans would be completely outmatched.
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
Just teach them smelting
(#285121)they'll take it from there.
I blame it all on the Internet
Degrees/skills useful for the time traveler:
(#285131)We might as well start compiling a list. These would all be incredibly useful to someone with a time machine...the question now becomes, could any one person possibly get through the whole curriculum and still begin time traveling before their 70's?
Civil Engineering
Electrical Engineering
Chemical, Mechanical, Nuclear, Aerospace, Computer aw hell... all Engineering
Metallurgy
Chemistry
Medicine (no more than 2 specialties though)
Surgery
Physics
Mathematics
Astronomy
Linguistics
History (duh)
Law
Education (you'll be doing a lot of teaching)
Geology/Surveying
Mining
Cartography
Agronomy/Botany
Basic Seamanship
Pilot's License (small aircraft)
Meteorology
Small Arms Tactics
Combatives/Hand-to-Hand
Military Strategy & Maneuver Tactics
Knife Fighting/Sharp Sticks
Mountaneering/Orienteering
Psychology
Negotiation Tactics
Gambling/Betting Strategies
Air Conditioning (hat tip: eeyn)
I just realized... we need to send James Bond back in time.
M Aurelius was probably right.
Perhaps the only useful ones
(#285135)are the ones that really do not exist in your target time. Things like military strategy/small unit tactics etc have been known for eons. Chances are whenever you go, some of the "locals" will know it better than you. You will neither be able to use it against them or teach them how to do it. Especially since in their times adjustments to these techniques are needed. For example, your RYA seamaster will not get you far on a longship with no charts or tide tables.
A lot fo the useful ones could get you burned at the stake in most of known history in under 20 minutes.
My thinking is, if you're going to attempt demographic
(#285159)engineering on a historic scale like this, you're probably better off knowing something about grand strategy, diplomacy, espionage and the like yourself, as opposed to relying on others. You will accumulate wealthy enemies. :)
M Aurelius was probably right.
You Don't Need All That
(#285139)Most of the serious engineering you've listed depends on a vast modern infrastructure of materials and cheap energy. You won't have anything approaching that.
You'd only need a few fundamental techniques -- and the knowledge that modern wonders are possible -- and work up from there.
So, some metallurgy (and some geology/geography so you know where to dig), some ag, some management, some public health.
yes,
(#285140)neat little concepts like germ theory.
It depends...
(#285197)Let's say you are in the Marine Expeditionary Unit situation mentioned above. 2200 men, a fair amount of ammunition and supplies. Some helicopters and trucks. You'd:
1) Stage a demonstration of your power. Yes, you have limited ammo and fuel, and your aircraft need to be maintained. But the Romans don't know any of that. So show them what you can do if angry.
2) Make a deal; protection in exchange of resources.
3) What resources? Food obviously. But also tradesmen, especially metal workers and construction workers. You need to be able to make two things. Bullets and fuel. Oil you can find in Iraq or Lybia. Refining isn't hard; you just heat the stuff in a tall column. Bullets, you need lead, copper and the chemicals for gunpowder. If you save the casings you only really need lead and gunpowder.
If you can make bullets, you will have plenty of time to build other capabilities.
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
Some things could be
(#285221)advanced quite a bit without the need for a lot of infrastructure.
For example, if someone brought a copy of Maxwell and Hertz's notes on electromagnetism from the late 1800's and waves back to Faraday and Fourier around 1821. They were smart guys and could have figured out the math, and Hertz's apparatus could have been produced with stuff available in in 1821. The end result would be radio maybe 50-60 years earlier.
The US Civil War would have been fought with a aid of radio, and WWI with TV.
Point taken, though I'm thinking more about the 1750s.
(#285129)Also, ignoring coal & fossil fuel deposits is going to be dangerous after the rest of the world figures out how much cheap power they contain. From a military-strategic point of view, you can't just leave such things to chance.
M Aurelius was probably right.
Heck no...
(#285136)If you gave them chemistry and electricity and Newtonian physics in 1400, they would have welding, optics, electric subs, aircraft, communications, and high explosives by 1750. The rest of the world could pound sand.
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
Cabeza de Vaca
(#285142)Was an officer in a Spanish expedition to Florida that failed. He ended up walking from Louisiana to Mexico City. It took him eight years or so, and along the way he was a slave, a tradesman, and mostly a medicine man.
He wrote about his journey when he got back to Spain. Adventures in the Unknown Interior of America is an English translation of that account (La Relacion...), plus commentary and references to subsequent Cabeza de Vaca writings about the experience.
Cabeza de Vaca grew to respect the locals (and they him, apparently) and pressed his countrymen to do the same (as if!). The takeaway here is: He wouldn't have survived if he hadn't gone native. I think the same would be true for your time traveler, which would limit the amount of progress he could deposit.
Nice bit on him in....
(#285147)...."1493".
"Unfortunately the universe doesn't agree with me. We'll see which one of us is still standing when this is over." -- Eliezer Yudkowsky
Been Meaning to Buy that
(#285156)*click*
Bought.
Mine's kind of pedestrian
(#285046)Go back to the night before my wedding and give my fiancee fair warning about the guy she was marrying, and my younger self a stern lecture about the error of his ways.
Rule 8 is not violated because neither of them would recognize the paunchy, hairless, defeated old man giving them the advice.
Ate some St John's Wort
(#285066)and am now ready to address this challenge seriously.
TARGET TIME: 60,000 years back (defined precisely in terms of revolutions around the sun, not 365 days) plus 6 months; that is, 59,988.5BC. Needs to be prior to people coming over the Bering Strait. Same place, although anywhere in North America would be OK.
TRAINING: Minimal.
EQUIPMENT & SUPPLIES: To take on trip: (1) A large roll (25 feet or so) of flexible dryer vent tubing, preferably the stuff made out of corrugated metal foil, not the flimsy plastic stuff. (2) Some good quality outdoor rated duct tape. (3) A bit (8" x 8" or so) of window screen material. (4) double barrel shotgun, loaded. (5) One bottle of Gatorade or a thermos of coffee, depending on the season.
THE PLAN: (1) Before leaving, tape down one end of the vent tubing to my desk, end pointing at my face. (2) Grab the roll of tape, window screen, shotgun, the drinks, and the other end of the tubing. (3) Jump into the time machine. (4) After reaching 58,988.5 BC tape the window screen over the free end of the tube (to keep out paleolithic vermin), and then tape the whole assembly to any convenient tree or rock. (5) While executing Step 4, drink up the refreshments, use shotgun to fend off sabertooth tigers or other threats.
UPON RETURN: (1) Hook up reversible blower to present end of tube. Run it ingoing or outgoing as needed to maintain pleasant temperature. (2) Call up CP&L and Rheem and tell them their services are no longer needed.
When you get back, you'll find everything unchanged except
(#285107)a small, highly peculiar cargo cult built around worship of a deity called Ventus, an ornery, irascible, bilulous god who communicates mostly in clickety-click noises, but who on occasion bestows small wondrous objects upon his grateful worshippers. Pencil shavings. Cheap cigar smoke. Paperclips bent into obscene shapes. The exact relics are long since lost, the legends faded beyond all but the oldest whispers of legends, but still the cult lives on in hope beyond hope. Come back to us, Ventus!
M Aurelius was probably right.
+1. nt
(#285146).
"Unfortunately the universe doesn't agree with me. We'll see which one of us is still standing when this is over." -- Eliezer Yudkowsky
OK man
(#285219)you have to tell me how you knew about the paperclip "art". Thought I'd been careful...
Just realize this is fantasy, not science fiction
(#285049)if you went back and changed something we would already have that change as part of our timeline. If there's a single timeline then whatever happened already happened, by definition.
If you go for the many-worlds hypothesis, you'll cause a different timeline to split off and will never be able to return to the timeline you originated in (despite what Back to the Future would tell you). What you would want isn't a time machine but a timeline selector, since whatever changes you want would almost certainly exist in an alternate timeline. But without being able to identify and tag our timeline, you'd never be able to return. Jack Vance wrote a very amusing story in this vein called Rumfuddle, well worth picking up if you can find it (and I'm guessing you can at Powell's).
If I accept your conditions I'd never go back in time, and I'd kill anyone who tried to do so. You cite Hitler and Lenin, but a time traveler could easily kill more people without even knowing it.
I blame it all on the Internet
Here's a scary thought...
(#285053)Assuming that this is true:
We already live in the best of all possible worlds, Hitler and Stalin included. Whatever else people tried to go back and change made things worse.
--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.
Not necessarily
(#285055)it's not impossible to change things for the better. But as anyone who's done just about anything realizes, there are very few ways to make things better and an almost unlimited number of ways to make thing worse. For example, you go back in time and kill Hitler. As a result, a much more rational and intelligent individual comes to power in Germany in the 1930s and manages to defeat Russia in WWII. How's that fix looking now?
I blame it all on the Internet
This is exactly my point
(#285060)Assuming the "One multiverse" theory, we could theoretically go back over and over until history was optimized. The argument is that the current state is the best result.
--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.
That's assuming time travel is even possible
(#285062)which is questionable, to put it mildly.
I blame it all on the Internet
Well, yes....
(#285064)I thought that was the whole point of this thread though. Put me on the side of it not actually being possible if anyone asks.
--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.
It might be...
(#285091)...if a device was left at a certain time. A portal to a wormhole.
In this case, you could not travel back in time previous to the time time travel was invented. Time from the moment the machine is invented ceases to be the same. The future becomes a kind of interconnected blob. Time would become a kind of dimensional location.
If even that is not possible, but faster than light travel is possible, then we could take pictures of the past. Say you want to see the year 100. You send a probe to a location some 2000 light-years distant. The probe builds a very, very large optical telescope in space, from minerals found locally. Point to the Earth and bingo, you get pictures of Earth in the year 100. By very large I mean a telescope thousands of miles in diameter, to enable very high resolution viewing of Earth.
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
I suspect you're on to something.
(#285092)snip...
I get the feeling this is how time actually works in practice.
--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.
One of the weirder predictions of special relativity
(#285111)If you're traveling towards a distant object, even at a relatively low speed, you'll experience a future time slice as being simultaneous compared to a person moving away from the object.
I blame it all on the Internet
Optimized as compared to what?
(#285145)http://www.amazon.com/Kaleidoscope-Century-John-Barnes/dp/0812533461/ref...
The premise of the above eventually becomes clear to the reader, namely that the one guy who somehow has managed to get himself on a "closed time-like loop" that lets him keep cycling back and further modifying stuff is a raging, sadistic, sociopathic mass murderer, and the world in between his entry and exit points is basically optimized to allow him to enjoy being just that (not that he remembers it all himself.)
"Unfortunately the universe doesn't agree with me. We'll see which one of us is still standing when this is over." -- Eliezer Yudkowsky
I need to read more scifi. -nt-
(#285160).
M Aurelius was probably right.
Neither better nor worse, merely....
(#285144)....most stable: http://www.amazon.com/Time-Patrol-Poul-Anderson/dp/1416509356
Taking it a step further, time travel should be rampant until you hit the time-line which makes time travel impossible.
* I was going to say "or until pseudo-rate of time-line shifts asymptotically approaches zero." However, I don't think that concept (or even my use of "rampant", another rate measure) makes sense, really.
"Unfortunately the universe doesn't agree with me. We'll see which one of us is still standing when this is over." -- Eliezer Yudkowsky
Once I have the Time Machine
(#285124)"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."
Major Kong
I'd time travel back to the
(#285126)first council of Nicea in a really convincing bishop dude costume with a few slightly altered bible texts under my cassok. The new Bible According to Junkey would include phrases such as
"and verily he sayeth unto the multitudes, people, it is not such a bigeth deal if thou thinks this really is my body and blood. Chillax. No biggie. The stuff about being nice to each other was the important bit."
and
"and thus the lord came unto the people of Mysoginoa and spake unto them; Thou art stupid and evil. Girls are just as cool as dudes. Be nice to them and let them do all the things you do or else your sons will not get any jobs and there will be affirmative action apon the land. And Jesus gave them all a jolly good smiting till they were full sore and sorry and then the clouds parted and the Lord himself came apon the Mysoginoans and gave them a jolly good smiting too, just to be sure".
and of course:
"once the gathering of the nerds was great, Jesus walked amongst them in the form of the Spock and spake unto them; "Nerds, stopeth thine divining of the impossible things involving time travel. Findesth thou a girl or a boy of legal age that thou likest and see canst thou go on a date and get some kissing and perhaps heavy petting. For Heavy petting is great in mine eyes"
Am I really the only one who thinks
(#285141)changing the precepts of a major world religion near its inception would be the best way to effect change. Bonus fun would be to get "home" to find out how they'd twisted your words to ensure business as usual. Insurance would be to plant a complete copy of your texts a la Dead Sea Scrolls to be discovered by you, world renowned archeologist..
or are you all sore because i called you nerds :)
I think it'd be far easier said than done.
(#285163)Religions, particularly religions "of the book," i.e. based on written scriptures, get passed down the generations according to heuristic rules, not genetic rules the way, say, technology does.
Law is a better analogy than technology, say. Religions basically are codes of law for the most part.
Heuristic systems tend to evolve in order to suit the needs of the moment... they can resist change, but also precipitate it; define the limits of the acceptable, but also catalyze great ethical transformations. Also, more cynically, they can be molded to suit the needs of the ruling class, whatever those needs might be.
Consider the Catholic Church over the centuries from AD 300 until now.
My point being: you could make little doctrinal or linguistic adjustments to scripture way back when, but that ain't no guarantee people will follow either letter or spirit of your changes even a few generations thence. People believe scripture says what they need to believe it says.
Just ask Jesus.
M Aurelius was probably right.
You said yourself
(#285166)I'm guessing pretty much everyone agrees with that.
I blame it all on the Internet
Somebody's Making a Movie of This
(#285138)Except the time travelers are a fully kitted Marine Expeditionary Unit, and the target is Augustine Rome.
learn rongorongo?
(#285150)First of all, we already have a time traveller in our midst, an American from the year 2036. His name is John Titor. His time here is spent trying to convince us that he is the real deal by making predictions, often wrong due to the multiplex and parallel nature of reality. He is seen as a nut or a hoaxster. Take heed, time travellers.
It seems we are setting ourselves some onerous tasks here. If WW1 wasn't enough to prevent WW2, I don't think I'd do much better, even with foreknowledge and a backpack full of tricks.
There's also a good deal of discussion about boning up on some skills and teaching them to people in the past, giving them a leg up into the future. Still sounds like a lot of work, and there's not guarantee of success. I thought perhaps that going back to the past, picking up a lost skill and coming back to teach it to my contemporaries would have a better chance of success, and be more useful too. Can't really think of any truly lost skills though, except perhaps the stone carving techniques of the Incans. There are still some mysteries about their record keeping techniques. Could also go back to Easter Island and become fluent in Rongorongo. On return to the present, I would be the world's expert on the subject.
You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh
I'd be content
(#285198)Just to see how they built Stonehenge.
They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864
Mounds of dirt, wobble stones around using ropes, remove dirt
(#285204)that's how I'd do it.....the rest is finding a good reason to care where the sun is on the equinox and whatnot.
"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."
Major Kong
The Pyramids
(#285349)People wonder that the pyramids have lasted so long. But by and large, it's not the nature of a pyramid to fall. (Apparently, one or two did, but they are the exception, not the rule).
Interesting theory that the Great Pyramids were built using an interior ramp. But Wally Wallington in Michigan thinks he knows how Stonehenge was built. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZBQhWySBm4
They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864
Anyone Up for a Tour of Palestinian East Jerusalem?
(#285207)I was going to do a Diary with about 10 videos covering most of Israel...but a little of this goes a long way, I think. Still, I have learned how to make transitions in my little one or two minute videos when I combine them.
This is no great shakes, but in the first 90 seconds you will learn a bunch of stuff, and then you'll wander for a couple of more minutes down alleys and side streets and maybe get a sense of the place. Or not.
But I offer this up for your consideration: (but note, please go to the gear symbol on the lower right and chose a 720HD quality...to make it look decent. Thanks....I don't seem to be able to change this default function in Youtube. You can also go full screen by clicking on the Youtube symbol, but again set for 720HD.).
This is not entirely a Time Machine post...but maybe also it essentially is really and truly in some sense a time machine post. Best Wishes, Traveller
Ha
(#285209)I thought you were trying to round up a bunch of people for a trip. Not sure if that's in the top ten of places I want to visit.
I blame it all on the Internet
We've never had a diary like this one
(#285224)Way to entertain people, MScott.
Indeed!
(#285226)It's such a change of pace I am thinking of promoting it to the front page by executive fiat.
Round of virtual applause for M Scott!
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
You say that now, but Jordan was right
(#285236)fanfic always turns into slashfic.
I blame it all on the Internet
Slashfic?
(#285238)**googles**
Why God why?
M Aurelius was probably right.
Because They Can?
(#285243)Another interesting tidbit--according to all the studies I've seen on the subject, most of the people writing it (and fanfiction in general) are female.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Heh, I mean no disrespect, and in fact my attitude
(#285247)towards people putting that kind of work into entertaining others and expanding fictional universes for free is... hell yeah.
That said, I really didn't need the visual of Severus Snape making out with Harry Potter. Wrong in so many ways.
M Aurelius was probably right.
I Have To Admit. . .
(#285250). . .that some of those combinations are disturbing to me in concept, not really because of the slash/non-slash aspects of them (though I don't seek out slashfic), but simply because of who the characters are. For example Draco/Hermione fics apparently have a significant following, but the pairing gives me vibes that would trigger a Godwin invocation if I stated them explicitly. Allowances can be made for alternate character readings and even alternate universes, but a Hermione who would react to an advance by Draco with anything but swift, blinding, and efficient violence isn't really Hermione any more IMO--but YMMV, obviously.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
I Learned Something New Today
(#285267)I wish I hadn't, though.
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.