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References
The next time I notice the usual suspects ranting about "conservative misogyny," I think I'll have this link ready.
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)"Vanessa Williams Tarnishes Miss America Crown with Sexist Objectification".
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )I'll admit I never saw that coming. What's next, Larry Flint destroys Libertarianism?
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent ). . .via selective outrage. When I hear a liberal use the word "misogyny" these days*, I'm pretty safe in assuming they're using it in bad faith.
*--anywhere but *here*, of course.
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| parent )I'm a little older than you, so let me tell you - in the 60s and 70s, Playboy was considered anything but feminist. There was plenty of outrage against their exploitation of women - why do you think Gloria Steinem applied for work there and wrote an expose?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )some incisive single-color piechart analysis there, but I still have no idea what this has to do with Hefner or Playboy.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )Just the ones who throw around accusations of "misogyny" and similar rhetoric about their political enemies and who ignore similar behavior by their political allies. Unfortunately, that crowd has disproportional influence within the feminist movement.
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| parent )part of the feminist movement in the first place. I mean, are the feminists aware of this?
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )so they must be.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )claims its own feminist cred. It's about 90% B.S. in my opinion. Anyone can claim anything.
Are you claiming Playboy is considered a "political ally" by many feminists?
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| parent )I just went to ESPN.com and noticed that the #1 rated player in women's tennis is some Russian I'd never heard of.
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)Last year totally f'ed up women's tennis: Justine Henin retired completely unexpectedly right before the French, Sharapova sustained a serious shoulder injury around the same time (from which she's just now recovering), and the Williams sisters--well, they don't really care enough about the smaller tournaments to build & sustain enough of a points lead to stay at the top. Dinara Safina, meanwhile, is the 2nd player in the last year to get to #1 w/o winning a major (Jelena Jankovic was the other).
I'm not counting on the WTA tour to look much more sensible in the near future, either. Safina may turn out to be the real deal (her brother was/is a not-too-shabby player, when not totally melting down), and Victoria Azarenka & Caroline Wozniaki (sp?) are promising up-and-comers, but the Williams Sisters ain't getting any younger, it'll be surprising if Sharapova is ever her old self, and Ana Ivanovic & Jankovic are looking to add their names to the interminable list of women players who can't keep their heads together for more than a week at a time.
--Bene vixit, bene qui latuit
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| parent )Flight AF447 was carrying 216 passengers and 12 crew.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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)Reports say the plane may have been over open ocean, perhaps as far as the coast of Africa. God help any survivors & best wishes to the families involved. My mom's overseas right now, but this is the kind of accident I hate to see at any time.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )The Sydney Morning Herald, thus.
While protestations of good faith are all very well, there is a significant element of hubris in all this. And overseas students, IMO, have a much greater responsibility to integrate with the society where they have chosen to study - the traditional responsibility of the emigre. There is this idea here that that since Oz universities make $2 billion a year from Indian students, their societies have a responsibility to integrate the students. Which idea leads directly to this, and other, forms of violence.
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)racist violence for causing the stupid racist violence. And somehow I think your reading is backwards: it is normally when groups begin trying to integrate that they become more visible and/or "threatening" to the racial purists & traditionalists who are ready to sharpen screwdrivers and start terrorizing the racial population.
If I had to guess, I'd say economic hard times are causing more disaffected Australian youth to feel resentment and lash out in the time-honoured way against those who are both powerless and nominally more successful with better prospects.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )I look fwd to your answer.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )Presumably (hard as it is to tell from Timmy's characteristically cryptic reference) - he's referring to things like THIS .
What the "issue" is, seems to be no more than a local outbreak (and not even a particularly bad one) of the type of anti-immigrant sentiments - and their associated violence - which are commonplace in virtually every country in Europe with any immigrant/"guest worker"" population. Especially when said migrants are (as typically) poor Muslims poorly-integrated with the "host" country's social structure.
Sad, but -as usual with so many of TtWD's postings - of questionable relevance? The point?
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| parent )watch list
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )Could you elaborate (are you able to elaborate??) on what that acronym-heavy Treasury notice has to do with "racial violence in Greece"? Or this just more crypticism?
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| parent ).
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )-
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| parent )Presumably these students are "integrating." They're successful in the national universities. And they're being attacked randomly in the streets by drunken angry louts. How is that their fault, responsibility, onus? What the hay are you talking about?
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )There is criticism by Australian students, too, though officially they are supportive.
The problem is that too few students from here take little time to prepare for a life in the West when they decide to emigrate - tending to move within their ethnic circles.
Of course its their responsibility. Locals don't invite immigration.
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| parent )What are the students allegedly doing to offend the locals?
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| parent )Often its things that they don't do.
Let me give you a simple example. In many North/East Indian languages, there are no specific words for "Please" and "Thank you". Please and thank you are expressed in using a particular form of language or by intonation and inflection.
When English is taught here to students, it is as scientific or technical jargon. Usual, commonplace expressions are left out. Consequently, many workplaces, universities thought students/workers from here rude and uncommunicative.
This is a real problem - one of a large number of cross-cultural ones. IMO, the sorting out these issues is the responsibility of the emigre.
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| parent )It's rude to not say please and thank you, but it's also pretty rude to stab people.
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| parent )Are they performing some kind of offensive ritual in public or something? It sounds like Aussies are attacking them simply because they're brown and foreign, and I don't think that students should have to prepare or apologize for that.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )These students don't owe jack squat to the ignorant morons who imagine they are somehow a threat. What you are doing is blaming the victims of xenophobic violence for the xenophobic violence.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )since the article doesn't say what the rates are for the general population. i.e. are Indians a disproportionate # of crimes compared to the rest of the pop.?
And if so I wonder what the cause could be. In the US my impression is that Indians have a hard time mostly when they're mistaken for other minorities.
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| parent )Dr. George Tiller shot to death.
In church, no less.
The usual reactions from the usual subjects, of course: but the stench of the crocodile tears from Operation Rescue was abnormally malodorous in their press release (emphasis added):
Charming.
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)I don't know how many people picked on vinteuil's vituperative criticism of the treatment of homosexuality by Castro's regime in Cuba.
The point has troubled many in radical movements - I mean the problem of the entry of reactionary ideas within the leftwing establishment on gaining power, true of Castro (and here too), as it was of Stalin, in China and in other countries.
At the same time in history, a similar attitude was present in Mr Lee Kuan Yew's conservative heaven, Singapore, too.
http://www.sgwiki.com/wiki/Singapore_gay_equality_movement
The essential difference, and it doesn't need to be spelled out, necessarily, is that this view of Castro, and others of his persuasion within the radical movement was an aberration of radical politics, whereas to a conservative regime such as Lee Kuan Yew it is of a line with conservative thinking.
Fortunately both in Cuba and Singapore, and elsewhere, the climate of oppression is changing - both left and right wing, in their own way, and in their own societies, are discovering the benefits of tolerance and inclusion.
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)...easier to object to if it's explicit. Intolerance once in power is not an aberration of radical politics, but a near universal. Homosexuals are one of several convenient targets because they offend the concept of a "healthy proletariat" that conforms to social norms apparently abandoned by the wealthier segments of society. It's related to similar biases against "cosmopolitans", Jews, merchants, wealthy minorities (Chinese ones in most of Asia), etc.
At the root is the belief that undereducated manual laborers possess a particularly moral lifestyle, and those that don't conform to the proscribed methods for earning, spending living or procreating are in some sense unhealthy. You'll find it as a radical universal, from the USSR's Communists to the Nazis and nearly everything in-between.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )politics".
Umm, disagree. The moment radical politics turns intolerant, it ceases to be radical, and consequently loses its special authority. And no, I'm not just playing semantics. This is what happened in Afghanistan in the late 1970s with Khalq and Parcham, and we are living with those consequences today.
OTOH, intolerance is fundamental to a conservative viewpoint. See, you people don't really live in the conservative world of hierarchy, church and state. US conservatives, like the forvmites on display here, are actually incredibly liberal in comparison to the majority of the rest of the world, certainly to those here. And I don't just mean in comparison with Europe. And how could you not be - with your fundamentally egalitarian foundations? The liberal-conservative distinctions here on the forvm, e.g. are minute, in real terms.
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| parent )governments like people who accept orders without question and who don't think. As far as people who live alternate lifestyles, they don't want to have to write multiple versions of propaganda for different target groups.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )- a book club read for me - so far I've only read reviews and excerpts -from beyond the grave.
Only 5 star reviews of Prisoner of the State: The Secret Journal of Premier Zhao Ziyang at Amazon - not that that says much, maybe, but still.
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)and calls him a liar.
Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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)Anyone can see Cheney is bluffing.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )I think Levin's full of crap. Always has been.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )by leaking the supposed successes of torture interrogations, and hasn't. I guess that doesn't tell you anything, but it's a pretty strong indicator to me. Means a lot more than my off-the-cuff assessments of the personalities of politicians I've never met.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )After a first jury was hung, a second jury took one look at the guy and promptly tossed him in the slammer:
His son said: "I'm torn about this. I'm losing my father who's going to spend his life in jail. At the same time, justice is served." Sounds like a good kid to me.
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)There were a lot of "ifs" in that case and very little clear evidence. If I'd been on the jury I'd have had trouble convicting him.
His gruesome appearance is probably due to the severe car accident he barely lived through in 1974.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent ).
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )Who could resist a headline like that? Link.
--Sincerity is the first casualty of capitalism. John Burdett
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)Too damn funny. Hat-tip to The Big Picture. Now, where my hose at?!
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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)Sometimes it can be found even in those who possess no others:
H/T Roy Edroso. I realized a while back that the wingnuts' constant accusations that all liberal outrage is feigned were the predictable outcome of garden-variety projection.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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)...I think the lot, left and right, are largely hypocrites. Or worse, blind to themselves.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )To date I have met zero.
--I went to YOUR institutional learning facilities?! So how can you say I'M crazy? - S. Tendencies
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| parent )....relative. :^)
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )So this post is partially inspired by talk of MEChA, and partially by my wondering why I'm not more put out with Obama, since I consider myself at least something of a center-right guy. So I started thinking about the things that do and don't bother me about the American left. So the list is:
Things that Don't Bother me
Things that Do Bother me
And there, basically, is why I think I kind of like Obama. He doesn't really push any of my buttons. Or if he does, it's out of sight of the media.
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)I'm pretty irritated by a certain kind of death penalty activists...namely those who try to convince you everyone on death row is innocent. Some are, most aren't. Those people are missing the point in a really annoying way. The point is that the state shouldn't be executing even guilty people.
I'll have to think about my version of this list...I'd actually have to make one for both left & rightwing activists. (Bother me: Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, crusaders, unnecessary war... Don't bother me: military families, sincere Christians, W.F. Buckley, Reagan, apple pie, gun owners.)
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )To suss out exactly how one feels and how one ought to vote in an upcoming election.
In practice, it basically leads to my voting R the further down on the ticket I get and D on the upper parts (well, until the GOP gets its collective act together).
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| parent )but that's hardly fair. The Republicans have long had the role of house cleaner in this not-so-fair city of ours, and even the crazy ones (Giuliani) have done more good for the city than not. That's because of an utterly broken & bought local Dem. party machine more than anything else.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )My opposition to the death penalty has nothing to do with whether or not certain people "need killing", a question which is, to coin a phrase, above my pay grade. I just don't believe in giving the state the legal power to kill its citizens.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )to not make mistakes or abuse its power... If it were 100% right on the issue all the time.. Would we be having this conversation. I also don't think it works as a deterant.... Besides 12 people in a jury I mean we had 50 million plus vote for Bush twice.... that really scares me....
--Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your
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| parent )If it weren't for Serena Butler the human race would still be enslaved by the thinking machines. I think she deserve a lot more respect than you are giving to her.
//this can't be obscure.
--I went to YOUR institutional learning facilities?! So how can you say I'M crazy? - S. Tendencies
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| parent )nt.... Still everytime I read old frank it amazes me..... His son has done a fair job with some stuff .... Just not the same IMHO....
I mean look... at Frank...
"Atrocity is recognized as such by victim and perpetrator alike, by all who learn about it at whatever remove. Atrocity has no excuses, no mitigating argument. Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity. It is a self-per[etuating upon itself--a barbarous form of incest. whoever commits atrocity also commits those future attrocities thus bred..."
Frank herbert children of dune...
Somehow torture comes to mind.............
--Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your
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| parent )I did, however, once make the joke that scholars who work in Gender Studies are engaging in a Butlerian Jihad. Shockingly, it didn't go over very well, since there appears to be not much overlap between readers of Dune and Women's Studies enthusiasts.
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| parent )"Oh, waiter! –That isn't a waiter, my dear, that's a butler. –Well, I can't yell 'Oh, butler!', can I? Maybe somebody's name is Butler. –You have a point. An idiotic one, but a point."
http://www.dailywav.com/0504/ohwaiter.wav
How can you be so worried about al Qaeda in Afghanistan? Even Petreaus, the US supremo there, sez the gang, unlike the Pashtun tribe, has been eliminated. Al Qaeda is so despised, everywhere it sets foot, that even the most radical Islamist regime on earth is dead against them and has worked together with the US in eliminating them. Grow a pair! Grow a spine! Grow a pair of spines!
--http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/spytalk/2009/05/iran-secretly-helped-us-bomb-t.html
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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| parent ).
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )I got it and that was the first thing I thought of, too.
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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| parent )--minus the health care thing--all seem to be similarly feckless.
So why are you bothered by post-structuralists? I mean ... are they even around anymore?
--Bene vixit, bene qui latuit
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| parent )Things that don't bother me:
-- His lack of disgust for atheists + commies
-- His blase attitude about government healthcare
-- His study abroad and military background
Things that Do Bother me:
-- His obsession with medieval scholarship
-- His capacity to make lists with bullets and bolding
-- That I thus far haven't been able to push his buttons
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| parent )the nooses."
I'm glad someone finally has the nerve to call this nefarious organization what it really is. In fact, we could go further than Tancredo. I'll say it right here: La Raza is a Latino KKK without the hoods or the nooses...or the burning crosses, the secret handshakes, the midnight terror rides, the funny hats, the Dungeons & Dragons org chart, or the racism.
Felt good to get that off my chest. See for yourself.
http://www.nclr.org/section/about/
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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)What's the GOP going to do for an encore? Leap from airplanes, sans parachutes, and aim for Obama's motorcade?
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )I wonder if the conservative machine is really thinking of pushing very hard against the nomination. I just popped over to drudge and he's not going after this at all. His 3 little links are all in the bottom right corner. One of 'em is: "September Vote Likely for Nominee..."
He obviously doesn't think it's wise to get the racist drumbeat going, and unless I'm mistaken he's still got a finger on the heartbeat of the conservative media narrative...
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| parent )Obama made a smart political move. I wish she were more of a hardcore liberal, but at least we're not getting another Roberts.
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| parent )Forgive my political naivete, but I don't know how Tancredo and Gingrich speaking on TV is actually organized.
Do they look for a green light from the RNC? Is this something privately arranged between Tancredo, Gingrich and the networks?
I also don't know whether the GOP comes out looking bad, since these guys aren't elected officials or officially in any capacity with the GOP as far as I know.
Which raises the question of why the networks have them on as much as they do. ...
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| parent )The GOP is justly famous for it. Either these guys are getting their talking points from someone, or that discipline is starting to fall apart.
TV networks like former elected officials almost as much as current ones. Especially former elected officials, like Newt, who hope to be future elected officials as well.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )However, comparing them to the KKK is a tad overblown. Fantasies about taking over the southwestern United States for "The Race" doesn't quite measure up to the whole lynching and cross-burning thing as far as crazy racist groups are concerned.
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| parent )I can do this all day: they're racist scum...without the racism...or fantasies of taking over the desert southwest!
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )I suppose you'd be impressed if a certain German political party had a website describing themselves, but declined to bring up that whole Holocaust thing. If they don't admit it on their website, it never happened!
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| parent )that the NCLR actually supports irredentism.
You sure you're not getting them confused with the student organization, MEChA?
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| parent )I know that NCLR gave MEChA some thousands for a student conference on at least one occasion.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )that gave a small student grant to another group, that used it for a conference that may or may not have had to do with irredentism.
And NCLR, which Sotomayor is a member of, has explicitly disavowed separatism + irredentism.
Not much grounds for the 'racist scum' tag.
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| parent )...point, obviously. You wouldn't agree to tossing money to a KKK-related student group looking to discuss anything whatsoever, right?
And MEChA clearly has a racist past, to the point that NCLR has felt the need to denounce them. So what it appears we have is a douchy large organization that made the mistake of supporting a small group of racists in some small thing. It may not be worth a blanket condemnation, but it is certainly movement in the direction of badness. :^)
Bernard, superior on his own merits
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )Maybe I dunno, because MEChA isn't as objectionable as a group with a 140-year history of terrorism, and so the comparison is ludicrous?
Kudos for finding something NCLR once did to earn the "racist scum" label.
It's the same low bar that makes the GOP a fundraiser & supporter for ACORN. Well done!
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )It's too large to tar the organization and all its members as 'racist scum' based on a one-time small student grant, especially when they then get points for condemning the recipient's irredentism.
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| parent )....douchy (douchey? I'll have to check with Harley) stuff.
FNM used to run the following together with NCLR:
That alone paints them as complete nimrods. Handing a little cash over to outright racists is just icing.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )I guess I got taken a bit since you dialed down the insult from racist scum to douchey.
Obviously it's a bit of a tangent to talk about the NCLR's minority housing ownership advocacy, when the topic is opposing a SCOTUS nominee.
What's relevant at this pt. is whether Sotomayor is racist or is a member of a racist organization.
I don't see anything here supporting that.
Seems to me the organization has tried to be relatively mainstream + bi-partisan, supporting Gonzales and inviting lots of Rs to speak at their organization. Looks like the GOP is out to lunch on this one.
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| parent )Any formally race-based or ethnicity-based organization in the environment of 2009 is, by definition, "a little bit racist" (as Avenue Q would put it.)
It's part and parcel of identity politics to think that you deserve something based on your group membership that you do not necessarily or easily extend to other groups. If NC La Raza were not somewhat racist, they'd be NC Against Poverty or NC Jobs For Everybody or NC Open Borders or something. The mere fact that they need to advertise their ties to those of Hispanic ethnicity so clearly marks either the organization or a large component of its membership as believing something ugly about humanity. And it's a nice way to create plenty of work for a multitude of rent-seeking activists by highlighting dividing lines and letting the various groups so demarcated battle for resources in zero-sum fashion.
Edit: Bi-partisanship, in this case, wouldn't make them any better. It would just mean that they want the entire political spectrum to have a vested interest in buying their particular dividing lines. Good business....
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )The NAACP, the anti-Defamation League, etc. are a 'little bit racist' by definition?
That's not obvious to me despite it being 2009.
really, only on the assumption that there's no racism/racial identity *except that which these organizations themselves purvey* would support your position.
It's part and parcel of identity politics to think that you deserve something based on your group membership that you do not necessarily or easily extend to other groups.
I'm denying that on other grounds as well. A group like NCLR might deal with language or cultural issues peculiar to the ethnic group they represent. That doesn't necessarily involve 'deserving more than others', it could just be about providing different services.
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| parent )....the validity of "racial identity" as a concept. No point in beating around the bush. Never mind the poor biology, it's a bad idea for a universal franchise democracy, imposing artificial dividing lines that self-reinforce during the battle for resources. The only valid purpose for an organization to adopt such a dividing line as part of its self-definition is to combat a law or set of laws that force it to. The NAACP is a valid organization in 1950, in the midst of Jim Crow, "separate but equal" and official racism. In 2009 it is an artificial interest group.
"Could just be about providing different services", BTW, is not what we're talking about here. The NCLR does not limit itself to providing English classes for recent immigrants. Were it merely a modern-day "freedmen's society", it would be both smaller and less objectionable.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )"the validity of "racial identity" as a concept."
Well many dream a dream, but 'valid' isn't really to the point, since race matters in the US and racial identity is along for the ride.
"combat a law or set of laws that force it to"
Laws aren't the only ways racism manifests itself, BG. E.g. legacy admissions.
"The NCLR does not limit itself to providing English classes for recent immigrants"
Fine, but above you said any group based around racial identity is a bit racist and that was my counter-example.
You've still got overly broad theses about racial identity groups and'll hgave to refine 'em in light of my legacy admissions example. Or the anti-defamation league, which still comes out as racist on your view. They aren't solely dedicated to fighting anti-jewish laws but anti-semitism more broadly.
We'll keep narrowin' 'til your ideas re whittled away to nuthin!
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| parent )Why didn't you just say so? We'd better get right on abolishing the "freedom to peaceably assemble" if we want to save the democracy.
Or is it only interest groups based on race? Or only interest groups whose "interest" is not one Bernard Guerrero?
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )...you don't try to exclude? Yes, factions are bad for democracy. Duh. I'll start by citing Federalist #10 and let you argue it out with Madison.
That obviously doesn't imply that we should abolish freedom of assembly. Douchebags should always have the right to associate with other douchebags, regardless of the negative effects on the nation as a whole. That does not prevent me from recognizing, in turn, that they are in fact douchebags.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )I'm not sure that made sense but bear with me.
What you're saying is that people who organize in pursuit of some interest are by definition douchebags. Is it possible that non-douchebags sometimes get together to affect policy? Or is it just an inherently douchebaggy thing to do? You're ready to completely exclude the possibility that good people might peaceably assemble for good reasons. Either you're an individualist, or you're a Summer's Eve bottle.
And you're misreading Madison. He recognizes that factions can be a threat to good government. He also recommends a remedy: the Constitution & federalism.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )with advocacy. Do members of the VFW hate non veterans? Do folks at your family reunions hate people who aren't Guerreros? Do members of Faulkner/PEN despise illiterate people?
Why then should there be just one category - race - where organizing represents "something ugly about humanity"? And also, wtf? Condemning interest groups is fine, but because they're inherently wicked? Clearly un-Guerrerist.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )for Bernard and Scott to call Irish-Americans racist scum for being pro-Irish, Italian-Americans racist scum for being pro-Italy, and especially American Jews being racist scum for supporting Israel.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )You seem to be implying that I am currently calling Hispanics or Chicanos "racist scum", which is such a ridiculous reading of my statement that I find it difficult to know where to begin with it. (The obvious spot, I guess, would be to point out that I'm a member of the former group and certainly place myself on a higher moral plane than the rest of you, so nyah.)
Broadly, the problem is with narrow interest-group advocacy. An organization dedicated to the furtherance of some (basically artificial) racial or ethnic identity is incompatible with stable democracy, be that group Chicanos, Italians, Cubans, blacks, Protestant, Jews or what have you. As I mentioned to Catchy, the only valid purpose for such a group is to battle an overtly discriminatory law that effectively imposes that definition. If I say "you're black and you're not allowed to ride the bus", you have a legitimate reason to band with others I have so defined to challenge the matter. Once that formal barrier has been removed, though, your further use of the organization is merely rent-seeking special interest group behavior of the sort we're all well acquainted with.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )I'm quite clearly saying that you seem to believe that anyone who belongs to an ethnically affiliated group is scum. So I'll be waiting for your denunciations of the various Emerald societies, the Sons of Italy, The German-American societies, the B'nai B'rith, etc. I also expect that you'll denounce Columbus Day and St. Patrick's Day.
The funniest thing about this is your definition of discrimination. How different Guerrerisme would be if your skin was a little bit darker.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent ).
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )when she was nominated and then confirmed? I sure don't remember that - do you?
--Sincerity is the first casualty of capitalism. John Burdett
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| parent )So it wasn't an 'historic' appointment? So it's kind of an irrelevant, diversionary question? Moving on, then....
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )the argument has turned into how people who belong to ethnically oriented group are scum. Bernard and Scott can fill you in.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )"believing something ugly about humanity" - as a white guy, I don't have to believe it, I see and hear it all the time.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )You have no idea. But I suspect this particular "ugly thing" is one you'd rather no encourage.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )but for some reason a lot of white people confide their prejudices to me. They tend not to use the word "scum" that much, though.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent ).
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent ).
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )there's evidence "all the time" for Scott's name calling? Really? I guess I'll just have to start every individual and group I disagree with "scum", "thugs" and all manner of other silly names. Oh, and stick an extreme adjective like "shrieking" or "foaming" in front of it. It's almost as if one could write a program to do it.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Scott calls anyone he disagrees with "thugs." BG calls anyone he disagrees with "scum" and "trash."
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| parent )Granted that there's a large intersection between said sets, but....
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )scum, thugs, race pimps, what have you, claim there's shrieking from the other side. Back these genius observations up with absolutely nothing.
Then duck out for a day or two and return with a post about baseball.
Ah, the internet.
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| parent )I won't talk for Scott, but I back up everything I say. End of story.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )Back that up, boy. I know Scott can't, but you're so much more.....
The story in fact continues.
--Me: We! -- Ali
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| parent )Exhibit 1: "Por La Raza todo, Fuera de La Raza nada" I trust I don't have to translate. Not that I don't understand where they're coming from. My own Guerreriste motto is: "Por los Guerreros todo, por ustedes comemierdas un puntapié en el culo!" But then, I'm a Guerreriste.
Exhibit 2: El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán
I particularly enjoy:
a people whose time has come and who struggles against the foreigner "gabacho"
We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent
Also multiple uses of the charming "gringo" epithet.
Exhibit 3: El Plan de Santa Barbara
Gems here:
Chicanismo involves a crucial distinction in political consciousness between a Mexican American (or Hispanic) and a Chicano mentality. The Mexican American or Hispanic is a person who lacks self-respect and pride in one's ethnic and cultural background.
(ed. Ha! One thing I'm pretty sure I do not lack is pride & self-respect. I think I'm better than most of the human race. But not because of where my Dad came from....)
To this end, barrio input must always be given full and open hearing when designing these programs, when creating them and in running them. The jobs created by these projects must be filled by competent Chicanos, not only the Chicano who has the traditional credentials required for the position, but one who has the credentials of the Raza. To often in the past the dedicated pushed for a program only to have a vendido sharp-talker come in and take over and start working for his Anglo administrator.
The whole thing makes for quite a read. A lot of infantile Marxism, too. Very entertaining.
Bernard Guerrero
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )Exhibit 1: la raza = guerreros
Exhibit 2: la raza = israelites
Exhibit 3: la raza = blacks, italians, the irish, etc
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| parent )and you can't never even lie straight in no bed neither.
Anyway Tex, what's with calling the NCLR 'douchy'? This is a pretty mainstream organization that Rove, Bush, and McCain have all addressed.
You gots any reason to single out Sotomayor over this?
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| parent )It's when I'm going forward that I get into trouble.
And I have no particular reason to single out Sotomayor. Heck, I'm not particularly bothered by her nomination. She seems about as harmless as the rest of them.
But the NCLR does stupid stuff. Scott might be overdoing it calling the entire lot "scum", but there are plenty of little scummy statements from individuals. I wouldn't call the NAACP an anti-semitic organization, but well-placed individuals like Lee Alcorn certainly are.
"Leadfoot" Guerrero
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )FTR, Scott specifically also called the organization 'racist', which has been the hot topic of the day.
And Big If, I'll handle the nicknames round here, capiche?
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| parent )with a Clint Eastwood voice while you typed, didn't you?... Son?
Internet tough guys are entertaining.
Somehow I don't think "Dirty" Harry Callahan had a penchant for using smiley-face emoticons in his police reports.
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| parent )I can't help it. Between the cute little dog and the rest of it....
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )This from the guy calling people son.
The guy wearing a backpack and a baseball hat in his photo? Little league practice?
Forget the propeller cap that day, chico?
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| parent )Hauling my daughter around on the mountain. I'm very in-touch with my nuturing side. What, you don't like kids?
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )your tough guy persona. Muy caliente.
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| parent )....my Guatamalan-ness, my hhheeaat, as well.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )you're sending shivers through the world wide web with your worldly, wideness...
Hubba hubba.
Gonna call me a fag now?
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| parent )Self-control is gold, son. Hang onto it for dear life. :^)
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )Based on a picture I have posted.
Not sure what's pokin' out the ole' backpack there, hijo, but I hope it's hanging on as well.
And what happened to the tough guy talk? You were getting me all hot and bothered.
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| parent )specifically deny it, categorically, point by point and in detail. I look forward to the graceful retraction of your ridiculous & inflammatory accusations.
http://www.nclr.org/content/viewpoints/detail/42500/
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )I'm busy posting comments on other sites defending the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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| parent )North Korea is a happy fun place to visit and live in! They say so! In detail.
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| parent )Oh wait, that's not evidence, it's just an inept analogy and another Godwin's Law violation.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )They must be feeling so 'ronery these days.
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| parent ).
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent ).
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )but couldn't find one supporting that the NCLR are racist scum?
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| parent ).
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )If you genuinely believe that I never produced any evidence regarding Hiroshima/Nagasaki, then I'm certainly not going to waste my time hunting down all the links from five and a half years ago when this issue was hot during the California recall election--particularly when your comments clearly telegraph that you've heard all this before.
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| parent )but nothing about this other, far more mainstream group you've decided to hurl baseless insults at.
All I'm "telegraphing" is that you should either put up some evidence, or gracefully admit that you were ridiculously wrong.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )just one would suffice. save that, is there a single factual claim you would stand by that provides support for calling NCLR, racist scum?
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| parent )it up. i will have to admit it doesn't have the same cache as "master race" but it is close.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )Well done.
http://www.nclr.org/section/reconquista/
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )of MECHA, in fact I believe NCLR funded MEChA as late as 2003. But more importantly has the NCLR purged MECHA members from its organizaion?
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )As for purges, it reminds me of a quote you might like. How did it go? Oh yeah.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )I was waiting for you guys to get around to that.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )there was no separation between the two organizations. the last time i heard in order to be a member of MECHA you would have to join the NCLR first.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent ).
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| parent )for Latinos 'racist scum' on a public forum unless I could back that up with a single quote or piece of evidence of some kind.
But that's just me.
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| parent )given their history.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )Q. E. frickin' D.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )they didn't deny it. They said they were following orders.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )Wait -- what was the point again?
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )You know who else denied the Holocaust?
Oh wait, I was thinking of the Nazis. Nevermind.
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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| parent )Redstate updates us on the Good Fight, complete with bible quotes and allusions to Christ:
http://www.redstate.com/erick/2009/05/28/the-peter-principle/
Onward Christian Faux-ldiers!
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)And could that be a desperate expression of whatever faint, fading kernel of self-awareness is still able to make itself heard in Erickson's tortured psyche, a repressed recognition of the fact that Limbaugh & co. have promoted themselves exactly to the point where they cease being helpful to the conservative movement?
Nah. He probably just couldn't think of anything original.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )He's not allowed in -- and there's no Sting, no Keanu, no Tesh, and no TV Vincent D'Onofrio either.
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| parent )That is the scariest part for me. I'd much prefer it if the wingnuts were all gun nuts living in "compounds", but, my guess is, if you lived next to worked with Erick you would find him to be a good guy.
--I went to YOUR institutional learning facilities?! So how can you say I'M crazy? - S. Tendencies
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| parent )http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2009/05/27/faith/doc4a1b794bd0fd9907394285.txt
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)That's some interesting insight for a man of the cloth.
But hold on just a tic...if homoerotic lust is "unbridled" doesn't that mean good, clean heterosexuality is necessarily "bridled"? And is that better? Is Pastor Hamman saying the proper way to embrace Our Creator is by slapping our lawfully wedded wives in riding tackle? Was there a production of Equus in Wasilla this year, and is this guy running a flock, or a stable? I don't recall Jesus saying anything about chains and whips and love in the traces, but this guy seems to be an expert, so...giddy-up!
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )don't know if you caught this beauty a few days ago -
But you really have to read the whole thing to appreciate it.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )"the iron grip of necessity that falls upon us when we are unwise enough to fall in love with a woman other than our mom"?
Seek. Help.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )it's funny, most people would be embarrassed to proclaim their oedipal issues to the world, wouldn't you think?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )There's no cause for shame here. That's what projection is for.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )Allow me to summarize: "It isn't fair to allow gays to marry, because marriage is a form of social control in primitive societies, even though marriage is no longer a form of social control in our society and we repudiate the idea of forced or arranged marriages. Gays should marry according to the norms of prechristian totemic clans in Europe. See how they like them apples! Also marriage can be miserable. Take my wife for example. No really, take her."
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )"I've been married three times, and it sucks. Why shouldn't gays suffer as well?"
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )"End marriage for everybody. Please!"
I also liked this part:
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| parent )I found some cheat sheets for you.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent ).
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| parent )that with budget cuts and everything, OSU would just buy a bunch of these to put on the walls and change all the philosophy courses to self study.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent ).
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| parent )The testers made a mistake and tested Juan Pierre's urine instead of Manny Ramirez's. It's the only thing that makes sense.
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)...on the one hand you have Antwerp Station...Go on...do it...just let yourself be happy...you deserve this this morning:
On the other hand, you have to only Listen to these scant 2 minutes...and tell me all of this is not a crime...against the English language among other items.
How were we not complicit in this utter terribleness? I think we forget how terrible it really was.
Sigh...just unbelievable to compare and contrast the good and the utterly terrible.
Best Wishes, Traveller
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)It did make me very happy tho I wish Europeans didn't have to make a techno version of everything.
It would've pushed my 'innocent and sweet' buttons more if they'd just stuck with the original.
The Bush clip is an interesting juxtaposition, but in order to remind readers that life is not always as zippy and happy, I might've gone with this pic:
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| parent )what are they, and do they taste good?
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| parent )You seem like such a good guy who occasionally has unwarranted trouble with border guards.
In answer to yoour question, the picture is entitled "Strange cyst removed from Chinese woman in Chongqing"
I don't know if it would taste good, but I kind of doubt it.
http://www.imaginechina.com/showStoryDetail.ic?imgType=NewsImage&id=pau158960
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| parent )My first impression, based on your "innocent and sweet buttons", was that they were button mushrooms, for some reason called "mi-re-do" in China, being lifted out of bowl of sweet marinade using a cheesecloth as a strainer.
Thank you for the wonderful link.
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| parent )The world is a cyst-filled place, eeyn.
Don't ever forget that even when something's pushing your sweet and innocent buttons.
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| parent )Cleaning the puke off the keyboard's gonna be a pain, tho.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )Barf Magazine. :)
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )Do-Re-Mi, a Rodgers and Hammerstein ditty from the 60s.
They taste like the opposite of Salzburg prior to WWII.
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| parent )I think in this video, Traveller, you have the beginning, middle, and end of why we went to war in Iraq when we did. And it's this simple: Bush is not able to understand that the Mideast is made up of different countries, different people, rival ideologies. In his mind at the time They Attacked Us, therefore We'll Attack Them. Nevermind that "They" were a tiny group of religious extremists bent on drawing the US into war, and "Them" was a secular, multiethnic country bent on growing its standing at the expense of US interests. Al Qaeda and Saddam's Iraq had absolutely no interests in common...they were, in fact, mortal enemies...until we invaded and presented AQ with a chance to draw the US into a war of attrition. Iraq and al Qaeda are *still* mortal enemies...including the Sunni religious faction that has the most common ground with AQI. Failing to understand & exploit these differences is a strategic failure of the first order.
Our enemies, quite simply, are not all the same people. I honestly believe Bush was never able to grasp that simple truth. Ignorant, well-meaning men are easy to manipulate.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )Sorry, double post. Traveller
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)Meet Matthew Alexander, a senior Air Force counterintelligence officer and interrogation expert who played a lead role in finding Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, killed in Iraq after an informant was convinced to give up his location.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfYov5o5_2s&feature=player_embedded
Here he is in a Washington Post op ed taking on the Cheney argument:
He notes that
Anecdote is not the singular of data, of course, but Alexander's observations have been borne out in a number of DoD & Congressional inquiries. The torture program has been a major recruiting tool for the Salafist radicals. And yet, to his and many of our astonishment, there *continues* to be a debate over these widely reported facts.
I don't agree with his dolchstoss rhetoric...it's harmful to accuse one's opponents in a domestic dispute of siding with the country's enemies, and I don't let right wingers get away with it.
But still, as a guy who formed a highly successful interrogation program in opposition to the Cheney regime (but perfectly in line with decades of experience among professional military interrogators), who was resisted for years by Rumsfeld's Pentagon, only to be adopted by the new regime of Petraeus and a more intelligent, less belligerent approach to the entire theater of war, Alexander's worth listening to.
Cheney couldn't be more wrong.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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).
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| parent )Link.
I'm sick of people discussing meaningful crap about law, politics and the economy here.
--Sincerity is the first casualty of capitalism. John Burdett
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)It's frustrating that gtk/gnome apps behave strangely unless you also run gnome-settings-daemon in the background, and conversely kde apps have some quirks when kded/kdeinit aren't running the show.
Other than that though, there's still progress in the gnome world as well. If you have a laptop, for instance, and you're hurting for horizontal real estate on your screen, you can run gnome-panel at the top with window-picker-applet and maximus to move your window borders to the panel itself.
In terms of development, it's great that the kde folks decided to revamp their entire development kit, but the gnome people are also making progress through managed runtimes (mono) and a real language (Vala) with which to program against their object model (gobject).
In terms of interop, it looks like the Tracker (gnome) and Nepomuk (kde) teams are working together on a metadata indexing, storage, and retrieval system that's bound to be better than apple's Spotlight.
In summary, I come to extinguish the flamewar!
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| parent )X Windows just hasn't kept up with the technology, it's difficult to implement the more modern and advanced features. Until it gets fixed the other problems you guys describe will continue.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )See also
http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/the_new_xorg_features
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| parent )I think the conclusion sums it up -
I'm not underestimating the difficulty of what they've taken on, especially in an area that has advanced so much over the past twenty years, but if you compare X to the Windows GDI or Quartz for the Mac it's pretty clear that they're behind in performance and device support.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Tim Rutten in today's LAT...this seemed important to remember, from time to time, since he is right, we usually quote and apply this wrong:
**************
One of the most misunderstood stories in the Western moral tradition involves the "judgment of Solomon," which usually is taken as a metaphor for splitting the difference.
But that's wrong. The story, for those who have forgotten, involves two harlots who came to King Solomon to resolve a dispute. Both recently had given birth, but one women's baby lived and the other's died. The woman who went to sleep with a living child and awoke to find a dead baby in her arms claimed that the other had switched their infants. Solomon listened to both and then announced that he would "cut the living child in two, and give half to one woman and half to the other."
When one of the women renounced her claim "in anguish" and the other accepted the verdict, the king gave the anguished harlot the living child, for she had reacted as only the true mother would. The point, in other words, is that Solomon didn't split the baby. Justice divided is no justice at all.
************
I remind all:
Justice is active, alive, real and very difficult to accomplish.
But, quite literally, it is all we have to separate us from the Beasts...so try we must and fail yet try again...it is all we can do.
Traveller
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)h/t volokh
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| parent )was dead serious
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| parent )Would you care to explain *this*?
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)Nate at 538 takes this one on... WIth the numbers.... I think the outrage is a bit false.... The key stat is control group.....
--http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/05/news-flash-car-dealers-are-republicans.html
Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your
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| parent )But Mr. Silver is good at dealing with innumeracy.
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| parent )the people making this claim really didn't bother to look at the overall distribution of campaign contributions by car dealers?
Really?
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )Campaign contributions among car dealers *as a whole*:
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )nt...
--Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and your
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| parent )notiwthstanding, when you find the link to the "process" used to make the decision, the opportunity to make the call will present itself wrapped up in a pretty blue ribbon.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )90% of the dealerships closed were ones that donated to Republicans.
So what, exactly, are we trying to explain here?
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )simply put, the process used in making the decision.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )While we wait for Chrysler and the Task Force to explain how choices were made, an expert on the franchise industry lays out the guidelines pretty clearly:
http://blog.cardomain.com/2009/05/26/chrysler-dealership-closings-why-certain-dealers-were-chosen-over-others/
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )would go would be readily available, no?
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )about injustice and Chicago rules.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )mentioned Chicago rules.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent ).
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )nt
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent ).
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )on
don't forget all politics is local
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )not that I expected you to.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )you rollout statistics whereas the question has been raised was politics involved. you look at the outcome and say it wasn't. whereas i look at the failure to respond to a simple straightfwd question and simply state the question remains open. it really isn't all that complicated.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )I never trusted the lima bean lobby. Dollars to doughnuts most of those car dealers never gave them any money. Let the investigations commence!
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )to see what process was used. if the threshold test was achieved by counting lima beans so be it.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )Everyone can tell there's not even an appearance yet alone evidence of impropriety.
So, that's about all there is to this thread, i would think.
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| parent )"at will" employees, it probably won't work here.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )Don't be so naive.
--Bene vixit, bene qui latuit
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| parent )and a naive hope others do as well.
What can I say, other than know when to say when.
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| parent )You imply there is one. Show us.
--Me: We! -- Ali
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| parent )questions are being directed to the "Task Force" on how the decision was made (the process used). apparently, you didn't get the memo.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )... that in order to avoid politicizing a company's business decision, you are politicizing a company's business decision. As the quoted (Dem) chumps are doing.
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| parent )the politicizing became a SOP.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent ).
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| parent )I can't think of too many other occupations that are more natural fits for the Republican Party.
Also, car dealers tend to be major league toolboxes. A perfect fit indeed!
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| parent )Hm. Hadn't thought about the loser salesman losing track of his lies & succumbing to his own delusions in that context before.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )To be generous, it may not be obvious to check for that. Be wary of the amateur internet super-sleuths. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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| parent )Anyone who doesn't understand the basics of statistical sampling should really resist the impulse to write about it.
And why am I just not surprised to see that Megan McCardle is one of those pimping this story?
I believe the next step is a post explaining that while she may have been "wrong", it was for all the right reasons, and the people pointing out her obvious error are a bunch of meanies.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )The people making these claims don't really care about the facts. It's just another attempt to get some "controversial" meme on the news cycle. The attempt will probably succeed.
Facts have no part of it. It's the Truthiness that counts.
And that this fluff comes to the Forvm from the guy claiming Obama is a "gun grabber", and that there's "whispers" that Obama is planning to take nukes away from Israel? Not surprising at all.
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| parent )Noted.
What heet said.
--"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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| parent )And pretty much all you need for a conservative circle jerk. But that's basically their new MO, right?
--“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
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| parent )This is just stupid. What is the party affiliation/breakdown of all dealers who were not closed? That is the important piece of information that is somehow missing from your link. Until you know this, the whole thing is a pointless circlejerk.
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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| parent )i'm not saying they did), what metric did they use? the question has been asked, as to the metric used, and to-date, there has been no answer.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )What the hell are you talking about? There is no evidence the WH used any kind of political metric and in fact Chrysler denies this. Why should Obama answer a stupid question like this?
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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| parent )well a link to to the denial, and a link to the process it used, is requested. Until then, politics makes for a compelling story on how the decision was made.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )here
Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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| parent )after watching the following, you will understand how important process (phase 2) can be.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )If she's not lying, the Task Force is not involved so it must be Chrysler's management calling the shots. Since when do you demand to know the reasoning behind a corporation's business strategy?
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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| parent )who knew.
if she isn't involved in the strategery and/or the private conversations, she wouldn't have a clue, now would she?
"Since when do you demand to know the reasoning behind a corporation's business strategy?" well it all began, when my tax dollars were used to bail the company out and of course, Obama's commitment to transparency is just another consideration.
btw, please note in my response to Catchy, the two senators directed their inquiry to the task force and not the senior management of the two cars companies. apparently, asking is going to become pretty popular.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )That explains the recent diary on the Olson/Boies litigation, but I'm still surprised.
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| parent )well yes but i've also lived in boulder, co, so that would make me a boulder republican as well, then again, i've lived in northpark, park hill, castle rock et al.
any who, apparently some senators are asking some questions about the process as well.
apparently, the "process" used remains an open question and accordingly, the senators made the following observation.
since all politics are local, i don't believe this is just going to go away.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent ).
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )the politicians, per se, are involved in the process just in case you missed it.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )just speculation, especially when it comes to which dealers are being cut. A strong claim requires strong evidence, do you have any?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )you might have a point.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )and you're supporting it, what other conclusion should one draw?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )observation given my opening comment on the subject and the related caveat(and i'm not saying they did).
reading skills, a lost art
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )not the WH, because there doesn't appear to be any evidence that the WH was involved in determining which dealers would be dropped.
--"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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| parent )as for the evidence, the Senate is holding hearings on the subject next week, so stay tuned.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )Seriously, is there any evidence involved in this thread anywhere?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent ).
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent ).
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )i assumed that you had an undestanding of what was going on.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )quick, let me fire off a missive to Cheney asking for “all documents, records and communications” relate to torture. Then I can post incoherent ravings here too!
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )i can only assume you concur.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )that some Republican Senator is dumb enough to raise the question of 'Chicago Rules'? Is Inhofe on that committee?
--"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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| parent )but the process on how the decision was made, absolutely.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )but generally boring.
I'm hoping that someone on the committee raises the political accusation Scott linked to. We don't need no boring economic reasoning why one dealership might be favored over another, we want scandal fodder that Rush can work into his show.
--"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
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| parent )full throttle but i'm more interested in the emails which were traded between the Task Force and the WH.
I clearly understand why you would struggle with economic benchmarks when politics, in certain cases, may have been the key driver.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )I'm guessing it'll be something like
http://blog.cardomain.com/2009/05/26/chrysler-dealership-closings-why-certain-dealers-were-chosen-over-others/
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )all the WH documents, records and communications connected to the decision that led Chrysler to decide on shedding nearly 800 dealers by early June and close six plants.
did you have something else in mind?
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )writing skills, even more so.
Sorry, you left the door open I just came on in.
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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| parent )bta, analysis is even a bigger problem.
sorry, just taking the opportunity to point out the obvious.
--"Perhaps we also ought to run off people who abuse our toleration of differing viewpoints."
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| parent )Shields you from that signal.
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| parent )Of course, evidence to the contrary can always be used as proof of the conspiracy. See? No tinfoil needed.
--Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen
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| parent )