Collapse of Complex Societies, The
The Collapse of Complex Societies is a book written by archaeologist Joseph Tainter. I came across a reference to the book at the Global Guerrillas website. The site, by the way, is on The Forvm blogroll and is worth a visit from time to time. I think John gives us a good insight as to how, almost 5 years since the good guys captured the red flag, we still have US military wandering around Baghdad getting themselves shot.
Instead of giving a book review, I'll attempt a summary. It's a work directed to an academic audience, so there's a fair amount of padding, dead horse flogging, and straw man creation and destruction. Still the crux of the thesis is interesting and simply stated: the collapse of complex societies ("civilization" in politically incorrect terms) can be traced back to the Law of Diminishing Marginal Returns. Before going ahead with that, I can quote Tainter on what is complexity, and what is collapse:
- Complex societies are problem-solving organizations, in which more parts, different kinds of parts, more social differentiation, more inequality, and more kinds of centralization and control emerge as circumstances require. Growth of complexity has involved a change from small, internally homogeneous, minimally differentiated groups characterized by equal access to resources, shifting, ephemeral leadership, and unstable political formations, to large, heterogeneous, internally differentiated, class structured, controlled societies in which the resources that sustain life are not equally available to all. This latter kind of society is an anomaly of history, and where present requires constant legitimation and reinforcement.
The process of collapse, as discussed in the previous chapter, is a matter of rapid, substantial decline in an established level of complexity. A society that has collapsed is suddenly smaller, less differentiated and heterogeneous, and characterized by fewer specialized parts; it displays less social differentiation; and it is able to exercise less control over the behaviour of its members. It is able at the same time to command smaller surpluses, to offer fewer benefits and inducements to membership; and it is less capable of providing subsistence and defensive security for a regional population. It may decompose to some of the constituent building blocks (e.g., states, ethnic groups, villages) out of which it was created.
Tainter takes us on a brief tour of what scholars have historically blamed for collapse – among others, the conflict/contradiction/mismanagement school to which Gibbon, Engels and Toynabee belong, and its main competitor, the mystical factors school where luminaries from Plato to Spengler have blamed collapse on decadence, loss of vigour and senility. This takes up a chapter and then Tainter gets down to his own theory on the law of diminishing (marginal) returns.
As I see it, the law of diminishing returns arises from our propensity to do what is easy first and save the hard parts for later. If I'm to gather wood, I'll gather it first near my cabin. Only when this supply is exhausted will I venture further afield. The law of diminishing returns takes effect when the energy I expend in my increasingly lengthy and arduous wood gathering expeditions exceeds the energy represented in an armful of firewood. That's my take on the matter, and Tainter spends another chapter on his, giving examples from agriculture, mineral and energy production, R&D, public health, education, and government, military and industrial management. I'll give one of his examples here from British admiralty statistics: (The “staff” include officials and clerks.)
year capital ships officers&men dock workers admiralty staff dockyard staff 1914 512 125,000 57,000 4,366 3,249 1967 114 83,900 37,798 33,574 8,013
The heart of the book consists of three case studies. The collapse of the Western Roman empire, the Mayan empire, and the Chacoan society of south-western US (apparently Tainter's own balliwick) are examined in terms of how their complies with the law of diminishing returns.
On the whole, the book gives us, at first glance, a rather dismal outlook. Collapse seems inevitable. Tainter speaks of another law dear to economists, the Law of Infinite Substitutability. This holds that with the right combination of motive and ingenuity there are no economic problems that can't be solved. (Once my firewood runs out, I switch to coal, thence to Uranium, Kryptonite, and so on.) Problem one is that the Law of Infinite Substitutability does not apply to social organization, though, I note here, the full implications of recent and continued advances in information processing technology are still unknown. The second problem is that it is difficult to accept that the law of Infinite Substitutability will, as the name implies, apply indefinitely. Technological innovation has resulted in some fantastic advances. Tainter cites a study which shows that from 1951 to 1966, food production increased 34%. This however was accomplished by a 63% increase in tractor expenditure, 146% on nitrate fertilizers, and 300% on pesticides. The capital and resource inputs necessay to accomplish another 34% increase would be even greater. R&D is needed but R&D is also subject to diminishing returns. So it will require an ever greater share of the GNP which in turn means that cutting into standard of living will be necessary. This will lead to impasse.
There doesn't seem to be a solution. I can offer a couple of my own thoughts on the subject. I thought that perhaps society could orchestrate a gradual, rational decrease in its complexity to the point where investment in complexity could effectively solve the previously unsolvable. Of course this would entail a wholesale re-ordering of our society, economically, politically – the whole thing lock, stock and barrel. Could be nasty too – think of comrade Stalin or the Matrix. Putting that aside, there is something positive to be said about collapse, and again this is more my own contribution rather than Tainter. Even if it comes at the high price in loss of comfort and security, less complexity gives us more freedom, more equality and more scope to use our creative potential.
--
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
--
Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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Any study of past precedents such as the Roman Empire are simply moot because previous to the 19th century technological improvement occurred at a glacial pace. If you look at the 1,000 year history of the Roman Empire, a citizen living at the start of it would have required no adaptation to the daily life and technology found at the end of it.
Which is not to say we are safe from collapse.
Rather, I'm with the mystical factors school. It's simply that we have a name for the mystical factor now: entropy.
Complex society collapses because it becomes too complex. It accumulates institutions, norms, and practices which become obsolete and cease to serve any purpose, yet remain entrenched and become an increasing drag on resources. Worse than that, they remove educated people from productive functions.
This happens on all levels. Our bodies collect toxins and people collect useless junk in their homes; corporations become lethargic and bureaucratic; software becomes unmanageable, and even hardware. In typical corporate data centers today you can find machines, perhaps as many as 10 or 20% which are turned on 24 hours a day doing nothing, used by no one, so called "ghost servers" that nobody knows about. But they still consume electricity, and still take up space.
Sometimes you just need too start with a clean sheet of paper, so to speak. Nature does this all the time.
Which is all nice and well. The problem is that we have become so dependent on complexity that our population is not sustainable without it. Even in Roman times, along with the collapse in complexity came a population crash. Today it would be much, much worse.
And..., who, exactly, keeps the nukes?
Hence, my sig.
--Of course not!
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)Enduring societies endure in the same way, deteriorating societies deteriorate in different ways. I'm not sure you can generalize. There are as many sicknesses for the societal organ as there are for the human organ.
And I'm not ready to accept that deterioration is pre-determined either.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )And I'm not ready to accept that deterioration is pre-determined either.
Of course it is. You need to sustain non-deterioration forever. Deterioration needs to win only once. It's like death. It cannot be beaten.
Only cheated.
In the long run, we have to spawn entirely new branches of civilization, out in space. Any luck at all and they will even rescue the home planet when the time comes, kind of like we rescued Europe.
Becoming a single, global economy lacks redundancy and makes us ever more vulnerable to wholesale collapse. But this is where we are headed. Where we already are to a substantial extent.
--Of course not!
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| parent )... because we haven't gotten to forever yet.
I'm only being difficult, I understand what you're saying.
The thing is, we're identifying 'complex societies' as having national or ethnic identities, and I'm not sure that's an adequate definition since each society builds on previous ones, to some degree. I think overall, the tendency to greater complexity is undeniable and, to date, has stuttered but in the broad view been unstoppable.
In this broad view, the worrying trend is that our capacity to self-destruct is getting so much greater.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )...the process of collapse is more likely to trigger global war than the other way around.
On the other hand, local wars like Iraq help build up institutional corruption and other decay factors which are required for collapse.
--Of course not!
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| parent )I think you're misusing the term "entropy" when "inertia" is probably the better analogy, but the central point is right. Societies become "top heavy" in the same way that bureaucracies, corporations, and peacetime armies do -- the functions of preserving the social order eventually, maybe inevitably, become more important than serving whatever function that social order arose to perform.
I think you're underestimating the value of waste, however. A great deal of corporate culture involves getting someone else to absorb the costs of a venture while the enterprise reaps the benefits -- turn the perspective slightly & you're looking at one definition of waste. Someone is making money off the "ghost servers" taking up bandwidth & soaking up power. Waste makes money, it's a great way to use up inventory. This is basically the theme of Don DeLillo's novel Underworld. So no I don't think waste alone is the sole reason for the demise of political systems -- I think the primary reason is the fact that sustaining itself rather than serving its original function becomes the purpose of any human institution.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )I was looking at the book again and I suppose he covers both Inertia and Entropy in his "failure to adapt" section. This encompasses the self explanitory models, the dinosaur, the runnaway train and the house of cards. He rejects this model for collapse because it denies societal flexiblility and rational choice in the public and leadership.
--Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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| parent )it denies societal flexiblility and rational choice in the public and leadership
Yeah, that sounds about right. With cultural and institutional entropy, societal flexibility does drop, and rational choice becomes more difficult. The first signs are when rational debate becomes impossible, as it now is. Our politics now is reduced to gotcha soundbites. Ideas are not seriously discussed. How can there be rational choice in such an environment?
--Of course not!
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| parent )I'd hold up the Glasnost and Perestroika that characterized the last years (and not just the very last years) of the Soviet Union as a counterexample. These were policies that allowed and encouraged unprecedented openness and debate on a national level. Perhaps it was a matter of too little too late, but in any case the willingness to confront their problems and the desire to salvage what they could was there. In almost all other aspects though, the SU was about as sclerotic a system as any. This is not to deny your characterization of present conditions in the West, but it does cast doubt on the notion that it exemplifies a general or universal rule.
--Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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| parent )This example reminds me of an issue I've thought about but did not presently have in mind. In the old days, a decaying society would be swiftly invaded or subjugated by others, taking advantage of the internal disarray.
Today, however, this is generally not possible. Failed states retain a good deal more of their integrity than they would have in the past. In the case of the Soviet Union, having nukes was no small part of the reason.
Given that, I'd argue they fell as far as possible in today's world. They lost major pieces of the empire, suffered economic collapse, a population crash of ethnic Russians, mass emigration, high suicide rates, low life expectancy, and the list goes on and on.
Glasnost, you must recall, was meant to improve the system. To save through self-reform. This proved impossible and fits perfectly well with an entropic interpretation.
But since they were not invaded, at some point recovery was inevitable. Not the recovery of the Soviet state, but recovery nonetheless. The West was very much a part of it, and a stakeholder. We needed a minimally stable state taking care of the nukes, while Russian natural resources and some technologies were very attractive to our capital.
The story would have been different without outside support. They would have fallen further.
But if the modern world collapses, where would the "outside" support come from? Unless aliens are coming, or (far more likely but still improbable) AI systems take over, we are on our own. We can fall far indeed. A part of humanity will probably survive, but the economic and cultural discontinuity could be very large.
--Of course not!
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| parent )It does make money individually but it's a drag on the overall economy. As these drags add up, at some point it cannot sustain itself.
I see inertia as entropy because inertial institutions are like waste heat; energy without a purpose. More precisely, energy without a net productive purpose. Institutional self-sustainment is not productive to the whole of society; it is a net cost. Parasitic, like a cancer (which is also self-sustaining and an expression of increasing disorder).
A given institution can be thought of as inertia, so I do see your point. But if the aggregate of all useless institutions or institutional elements rises with time, is that not entropy?
--Of course not!
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| parent )I think you got the spirit of mystical factors down to a T. As you know, the concept entropy is developed most powerfully in physics. Comes from the study of gases, I believe. The problem is that you have no basis to claim that a physical phenomenon such as entropy has any role to play in our social organizations. It certainly does in a metaphorical sense, but, with the brevity and lack of detail in your comment, I'm not willing to go much further than that. You could pick worse role models than Plato and Spengler if you're interested in developing entropy.
--Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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| parent )Traveller
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| parent )I'm not sure about that agricultural analysis. Yes, investments in equipment and R&D went way up, but the number of people involved in agriculture and livestock is way down as a percent of total population.
Second, if you want to see a collapsed society, look no further than Zimbabwe. In 25 short years, the country went from Africa's breadbasket to Africa's biggest economic basket case.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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)Manpower engaged in agriculture is down, but capital input is up and continues to rise. It rises with each incease in the cost of oil. I believe the key point here is that this rise in capital input (and manpower is only a diminishing part of this) outstrips productivity gains.
Your point about Zimbabwe is valid, and their fall may be more correctly attributed to mismanagement than diminishing returns. The book does not concern itself solely with the fall of empires. The most pitiful case examined is that of the Ik of Northern Uganda. Once they had reached the clan stage of social organization but have fallen now to a point where there is essentially no social or political organization. Tribe members spend most of their time alone foraging for food and water. Children are abandonned to fend for themselves at the age of three - they band together in age sets for protection. It's like totally Hobbesian. Again, though, they don't appear to make a case for diminishing returns.
--Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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| parent )I'll add The Collapse of Complex Societies to the list of books I'm interested in buying, but it will be a while before I get around to reading it. I wonder, although the book addresses the collapsing of societies, does Tainter at all address their expansion? Because although Rome eventually collapsed it expanded for centuries, and you could look at globalization as the most ambitious expansion ever of complex society, which could place its collapse very far into the future. Eventually though it will collapse, whether due to the law of diminishing marginal returns, decadence, or some other reason yet to be theorized. And when that happens I agree there will be more freedom, but all more equality means is that more members of the society will be vulnerable to famine during the next drought, and when you spend most of the day securing food resources the chances to use creative potential diminish rather than expand.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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)First about more equality, Tainter notes that in collapsing societies, there is less social stratification. The archeologist discovers that large mansions or palaces that once held only the creme de la creme have had their living space partitioned and shared by the poor. This is an example of the egalitarian aspect I wanted to high-light. It's not much, but I wanted to end on a positive note. Members of society will certainly be vulnerable to famine etc, but I meant that in a collapsed society, by definition really, it will be easier for them to solve their problems by investing in complexity - even if it's "You hunt, I'll gather." Again it's not much, but it is a positive.
The book was published in 1988 so it's definitely a little dated. In his speculative ruminations at the end, a lot of ink is given over to Cold War rivalry, nuclear war and other such unfashionable topics as these. But he does talk about expansion all the way through. Territorial expansion is part and parcel with complexity just as collapse is characterized by shrinkage. Today, I think Tainter does not think much of expansion as an option. There are not the viable lands available. One simply can't imagine people departing New York heading for a new life and new opportunity in the sub-Saharan scrubland. Expansion of the Roman empire is dealt with extensively. I'll summarize briefly:
*last few centuries BC there was a tendency for Romans to migrate to newly conquered territories. There was political strife in Rome, and migration must have offered some benefit.
*the expansion was at first highly successful. The newly acquired territories were looted of accumulated surpluses, required to pay tributes, taxes etc
*the vast amounts of money brought in made Rome's conquests economically self-perpetuating, culminating in Augustus' conquest of Egypt.
*after losses to the Germans, Augustus terminated the expansion and concentrated on maintaining a stable army.
*henceforth, financing the vast empire became more problematic. Unpopular taxes, debasing the coinage never solved the problem.
*transport was prohibitively expensive. A wagon load of wheat would double in value after being carted 480km. By boat was better. It was less costly to ship a boat load of grain from one end of the Mediterranean to the other than it was to cart it 120kms. Still shipping was risky and seasonal. Inland famine stricken areas could not be relieved and local surpluses could not be economically carted to areas of shortage.
You get the idea where all this is headed. The book is quite detailed on the expansion of the Roman Empire.
--Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just
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| parent )so I don’t see how that is a positive. Providing for the weak, lame, and lazy is a drag on society however you accomplish it, be it through the welfare state or by tribal societies setting aside sustenance for the members who are the least productive and have the least potential. And there really is no good rationale to do so, other than to alleviate the guilty consciences of that society’s more sensitive members.
I think you could make the argument that globalization allows a for complex society to expand without the extensive territorial or military headaches, which the author, having written this in 1988, may not have foreseen. Eventually, however, there is only so much globe to expand into and it will begin to contract. But given the potential for expansion, and the enthusiasm which it is being undertaken, that may be a long time coming.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )You are too focused on thinking about communism and similar experiences. Dismal failure can be found at the other end of the spectrum as well. In the third world fantastic differences between rich and poor are the rule, and this generates no wealth at all, while blocking any challenge to the system.
Concentration of wealth is equivalent to concentration of power. Concentration of power occurs also in communism (though not in theory, since "the people" own everything). In other words, concentration of power and resource control are one and the same thing.
For an economy to create wealth, a free market must exist. And for that to happen, wealth must be fragmented among a fairly substantial part of the population. Capital concentration is not only not enough: too much is actually a bad thing.
There is some optimum intermediate point. A fully equal society will not work, but a fully unequal one will not work either.
It is much harder to strive for balance than to aim blindly in only one direction. In this way, right and left extremes err equally. Both prefer a faith, a simple and pure aesthetic, rather than messy reality with all its compromises.
This is also why I prefer the term free market economy over capitalism. There is always capital in a free market, but the reverse is not necessarily true.
--Of course not!
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| parent )it's top 1% of wealth/power accumulators will be. I think that's what you meant to say. The kids flipping burgers in McDonald's aren't any richer just because Bill Gates' personal fortune is greater than the GDP of many countries.
Similarly they aren't a "drain" on society, they are just a drain on the process of accumulating nearly all available wealth into the smallest possible group of pudgy fingers.
I think the main misconception of this diary is a confusion between "society" (a cultural structure whose primary purpose is channeling the production of wealth) and "people" or "nation" (bonds of blood and/or language). Societies collapse. Cultures, far more rarely.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )are better off than kids who have to kill, gather, or grow their dinner, which are our historically most equal societies.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )I've done both. I'll give you one guess which one makes me feel "richer."
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )it is about the societies which allow such opportunities and how equal they are.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )That was my point.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )into the conservative mindset.
Would you care to expand on the above concept with a mind toward developing a strategy to get more conservatives elected to office?
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )A "Conservative Mindset" with regards to the US electorate relates to conserving and supporting existing mechanisms to protect the society, including the poor, weak, lame and halt.
As Sulla would be the first to note, the Founders percieved their society as founded on Christian ideals (regardless of the extent of their specific beliefs with regards to a diety). From the outset, the original states provided various institutions to care for the poor and sick, and other institutions to provide general social benefits - to include public schools. What the founders did not believe is that it was a federal mandate to provide a social safety net.
Thus a conservative strategy to get more conservatives elected to office would emphasize:
- local institutions provide better social services than burocrats from a central government, at a better price;
--- a safety net is needed, but cannot be not permanent;
- attack the disfunctional, if politically correct, social science theories that are impeding actual progress.
The Jingoist
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| parent )although I consider myself conservative, using anything I say to paint a conservative mindset is unfair to conservatives as a whole. I have my own reasons for classifying myself as such, but by no means do I constitute the norm.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )I suppose.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )so telling drains on society that they are in fact drains on society, and turning that into 51% of the vote, is not something I have a strategy for or may be even capable of.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )ignore
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )51%
Why bother to strive for more than the minimum you need, right?
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )51% is what the professional politician strives for*, it's all that is needed to win, anything else is a bonus.
*there are slight variances to this, attaining the necessary votes in the electoral college for example
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )Thanks.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )....seems to be almost inherent in what man is, woven into his very essential and immutable nature.
We are always seeing anthropological reports where members of a society are kept alive long beyond their shelf life or usefulness.
I suppose on the other hand, we see evidence of the healthy and able bodied being slain for no economic reason...
Hence maybe something else is at work here than simple usefulness to any given society.
Best Wishes, Traveller
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| parent )but if you look at it from a cost/benefit point of view there is really no good reason for it other than emotional satisfaction.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )Empathy facilitates communication & "unit cohesiveness." Luxury spending (to include charity) enables the powerful to demonstrate status & acquire vassals. See "largesse" or "lagniappe." Charity also creates donor/debtor relationships which can be more cost effective than patron/servant or boss/employee arrangements. Allowing "deficient" members to thrive & reproduce may enhance adaptability in case of environmental/economic change by widening the spectrum of current phylogenetic traits. Finding new ways to extend/improve life benefits all members of the species -- the "NASA effect" applied to caritas.
In general, when you think you've outsmarted thousands of years of human belief & practice, you probably just need to look a little closer.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )demonstrates status, acquires vassals, and creates relationships between the powerful and the powerless, then it would seem to me acts of anonymous charity would not exist. As to the biological arguments which allow the deficient to reproduce, I was not advocating that they be exterminated, only that confiscating the wealth of their betters to provide for them what they don't care to provide themselves is a net negative for the society as a whole. Being equal means everyone is poor, not that everyone is comfortable. Finally, the bigger affront to thousands of years of human belief and practice is picking a mans pocket to provide for those he has no connection to, rather than examining why others, who also have no connection to the 'needy', demand that the wealthy provide for them in the guise of social justice or equality.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )and as deliberately flaunted as any kind of conspicuous consumption, and for the same reason (i.e. status is performative). As for anonymous charity, I mentioned and you ignored empathy as key to communication, plus there is the Good Samaritan story which is not about self sacrifice so much as creating good will which in a complex society is a benefit in and of itself.
Finally, the bigger affront to thousands of years of human belief and practice is picking a mans pocket to provide for those he has no connection to, rather than examining why others, who also have no connection to the 'needy', demand that the wealthy provide for them in the guise of social justice or equality.
Hello? I thought we were talking about charity & altruism, not picking pockets etc. What are you on about? Social justice, like land redistribution, etc. generally has nothing to do with charity and everything to do with reversing generations-old accumulation of wealth in a few hands and resulting impoverishment of everybody else. Put another way, the wealthy become too weak to protect their wealth from the impoverished masses. No bleeding heart sentiments required.
Which leads me to another point I didn't make before: the ancient moral hostility to the pursuit of wealth is probably legit in one way, and for exactly the reason Mickey lays out in the diary. In a society in which nearly all wealth gets funneled into the hands of a few, those few are no longer working in the interests of the society but only in maintaining their status. The whole thing becomes topheavy and voila, French Revolution. Or far more commonly a leaner rival society defeats the decrepit one in war or in trade. The narrow pursuit of wealth leads directly to obsolescence.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )It's what sets us apart from the animals.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )language skills which allow for the knowledge base we are able to pass on to succeeding generations is the only differences I’ve seen. Emotions are merely chemical reactions brought about by external stimuli, nothing special there.
--"That Sam-I-am! That Sam-I-am! I do not like that Sam-I-am!"- Dr. Seuss
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| parent )