the eagle has landed

I was going to post this in the open thread, but I thought it best not to clutter it up  with a post not about the boring and silly election.

 

The "Total Failure of Afghan strategy" is a total success, and should be recognized as such by a nation determined to follow a course that has it occupying and trying to subdue local insurgencies. The Taleban tactics that have triggered the total failure are the planting of operatives in the Afghan army where they perpetrate 'green on blue' attacks. This not only creates casualties for casualty-shy democracies, but it also undermines the west's hamfisted efforts at social engineering in Afghan society. The second component of the west's strategy is epitomized by the drone programme - extremely expensive, cutting edge technology delivering indiscriminate death from above. There's not much the Taleban can do against drones save keep a low profile and avoid using cellular phones. Whatever success against the West the Taleban have enjoyed is due to their tenacity and wit in conceiving green on blue tactics. I asked several times whether of not there is any precedent for a COIN strategy to be undermined in this way, but so far, no answer.

 

It's worth reflecting on the other success of the Mujahedin victory over the Soviets about 25 years ago. Of course it wasn't their infiltrating and perverting Soviet nation building efforts that was responsible for their victory, it was the American campaign to arm and train them, culminating with the decision to hand over the latest in surface to air technology, the stinger missile. This is common knowledge.

Outside Jalalabad, Afghanistan, 25 years ago this week, an angry young man named Abdul Wahab Quanat recited his prayers, walked onto a farm field near a Soviet airfield, raised a Stinger missile launcher to his shoulder and shot his way into history.

It was the first time since the Soviet invasion seven years earlier that a mujahedeen fighter had destroyed the most feared weapon in the Soviet arsenal, a Hind attack helicopter. The event panicked the Soviet ranks, changed the course of the war and helped to break up the USSR itself.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020413820457659885110944678...

 

This the popular narrative, repeatedly hammered home in the press and elsewhere, and wholly in keeping with the American myth, born in the ashes of Hiroshima, that victory lies in application of the latest, most expensive, most violent technology at hand. Is the narrative true? I've already pointed out in the total failure diary how it was false in Hiroshima. I could go on too and show how the massive carpet bombing on the peoples of South East Asia did not lead to victory. How about Afghanistan? Here's something I found after a short search on the net:

Although counter-intuitive and contrary to popular wisdom, it appears the U.S. counter-escalation of 1985-1986 was largely irrelevant to the Soviet withdrawal decision of November 1986. This is clearly the case for the Stinger, which was not utilized in Afghanistan until September 1986, a mere two months before the Politburo’s decision to adopt a withdrawal deadline. At the key November 1986 Politburo meeting, no mention was made of the Stinger nor any other U.S. escalation. Rather, Defense Minister Akhromeev blamed Moscow for capping troop levels and Kabul for failing to coopt the opposition. Moreover, the Stinger effectively was neutralized by technical and tactical counter-measures well before the Soviets actually completed their withdrawal. Thus, there is no evidence the Stinger even hastened Soviet withdrawal. Neither is there evidence it delayed the Soviet pullout.

Had Gorbachev not decided autonomously to withdraw, it is unlikely the Stinger could have chased him out of Afghanistan. Prior to his entering office, the Red Army’s strategy in Afghanistan had presumed a protracted occupation, relying only on holding key cities and garrisons as bases for attacks on population, infrastructure, and supply lines in rebel-controlled areas. These bases were never seriously threatened by the Mujahedin even after they acquired the Stinger. Previous Soviet conquests had required occupations of far greater duration. Indeed, in the mid-1980s, there was a cottage industry among U.S. Sovietologists trying to figure out which historical model the Soviets would use to absorb Afghanistan: Mongolia, Central Asia, Finland, Eastern Europe generally, or Poland specifically. In 1982, General Secretary Yuri Andropov reminded Politburo colleagues that it had required almost fifteen years to subdue Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Kirgizstan. In June 1985, the United States Central Command, unaware of the changes Gorbachev was bringing to the Kremlin, concluded the Soviets could “be expected to show their historical persistence in Afghanistan, anticipating a slow, gradual domination of the country.... [where] time may be on their side.” The study, citing previous Soviet triumphs over indigenous anticommunist movements, concluded that “the Afghans will likely suffer a similar fate.” According to a key Pakistani official, Islamabad likewise believed Soviet “costs [in Afghanistan] were not intolerable and appeared to be on the decline.” 

Is it true? Seems plausible to me, though I'm predisposed to lines of argument that undermine America's 'death from above' cult. It's noteworthy that even the WSJ article acknowledges that Gorbachev was already preparing to withdraw when the stingers were introduced.

 

Is there a moral to the story? I only offer this. An imperial nation, one like Nazi Germany, or Imperial Rome or ancient Egypt, a nation that adopts the symbol of the Eagle to embody its values, can be successful, but only if it is willing to commit itself, and the lives of its armies. What I'm talking about here is the American mythology that 'death from above' is, has been, and can be successful as a replacement for the commitment of lives necessary for successful imperial adventures.

 

 

 

 

 

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Can "Death from Above," be Successful? (Mors Ab Alto)

(#291072)

http://www.vetshome.com/military_airborne_inf_patches1.htm

 

At first I though I would respond with the possible looming conflict between the Secular and the Sacred...as I sometimes see this Islam Tribalism v. The West argument...but no, you're asking a specific question.

 

I also would take issue with your more general assertion that Carpet Bombing of Germany and Japan and specifically the Atomic Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were un-necessary in hastening the ending of WWII.

 

This has become a popular thesis, (a popular anti-war or the making of war civilized thesis) but my lying eyes tells me that this is incorrect. Contra your position, what this actually goes to prove is that in War, the victorious side needs to lay total waste to the enemy and kill close to 10% of the total population (German population pre war, 87M, Deaths 7.7M...Japan did relatively better, 71M population, only approx 2.7M killed, or a little less than 5%).

 

Vietnam is a unique situation...it was a holding action, much is Afghanistan now. Vietnam was not winnable in any conventional sense of the word after Mao gave assurances to Ho that China would massively intervene if the US were to cross the DMZ or, maybe even if we bombed the Red River Dikes, (which I still think we maybe should have done), much as the Chinese intervened in the Korean war.

 

As a soldier in Vietnam I assure you we of the 101st Airborne were acutely aware of this possibility and wanted it avoided.

 

It is also to be remembered that Castro did have Nuclear Weapons in Cuba in 1962 and recommended to Khruschchev that they be used against the United States, (I have never been able to forgive Castro for this). It was not beyond the realm of possible that Vietnam, were the United States to invade the North, would lead to a Nuclear exchange between China and the United States.

 

Given the possibilities...the worst was avoided, but there were political options.

 

Well, to bring this to a conclusion...

 

Death from above is very effective and, to cite another example, has been used very effectively against the Palestinians for decades now.

 

Ultimately we are still not talking War....War is bad stuff, but possibly necessary from time to time. For actual War, we need to be talking about several orders of magnitude above the current killing, and as it had to be proven to Japan and Germany that they were not a Superior Race, in the current conflict, because it is religious based, it may be necessary, if actual war was to come, to rip out the religious roots much as Henry the VIII did to Catholicism in England. 

 

Traveller

 

 

 

 

I don't see the success of Israel against Hamas

(#291197)

I suspect you are wrong on the need to kill off massive numbers of the civilian population to have achieved victory in WW2.

 

Anthony Beaver wrote that the large numbers of collateral or civilian casualties is largely due to the democracies. In the fighting with the Germans after the Normandy landing, the Allies actually killed more French civilians than the Germans did. A first it seems counterintuitive to me, but it comes down to the Allies wanting to preserve the lives of their troops and having massive, even unlimited firepower in their hands. I'm curious whether the assault on Germany from the Soviet side was the same. I doubt it was.

 

I don't see the success of Israel against Hamas 4 years back or Hezbollah a couple more before that. In both efforts the enemy were firing rockets into Israel until the last day of fighting. And incredibly, the Hamas and Hezbollah efforts were responsible for fewer Israeli civilian casualties both in absolute numbers and also as a percentage against military casualties. Who exactly are the terrorists here?

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Don't Start A Gunfight With A Knife

(#291199)
M Scott Eiland's picture

If Hamas suffers more casualties than the Israelis in a fight they started, that's pretty much their problem and irrelevant from a moral standpoint. Keep killing them with grim efficiency until they put up the white flag once and for all.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

I don't know how Hamas

(#291200)

I don't know how Hamas, an organization that's been around only a couple of decades, can be accused of starting anything.

 

But you haven't taken my point. If you want to kill them with 'grim efficiency' you need something other than a democracy to do the killing. When a democracy tries it, they just kill Hamas activists and civilians indiscriminately. That's not efficiency, grim or otherwise. I think the zionists were a hundred years too late. Had they done as the colonialists of the Americas and Australia and quietly stolen the land and exterminated the natives, nobody would have raised any objections.

 

Are you sincerely expecting that operations like 'Cast Lead' will lead to Palestinian militants raising the white flag? Seriously? You are truly in thrall to the myth of death from above. Here is from the link I put in below:

 

"The Soviets’ fundamental problem was their unwillingness to increase troop levels, forcing them into a strategy of coercion based mainly on air power. Throughout the twentieth century, such an approach had failed to produce victory against a people on its home territory. "
 

 

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Do You See the Success of Hamas or Hezbollah...

(#291218)

...I don't.

 

Israel is just fine, making progress, good infrastructure, feeding its people, providing jobs and innovations, (I'm looking at buying Teva as a stock...the drag on the company is Iran is there), Hamas and Hezbollah...I see none of these things.

 

This is not a question of right or wrong, but has airpower been successful as a political instrument of Israeli policy and, most importantly, building the settlements around East Jerusalem?

 

So far so good.

 

(I note further that East Jerusalem takes in all of the Old City running along Yafa road, (Highway 60) and all of the main Christian sites down across the Jewish Cemetery up the other side to the Garden of Gethsemane.) I never see this being given up.

 

It is like the Right of Return, a Dead Letter, DOA.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

Stealing land, chasing off the natives, building houses

(#291220)

The Hezbollah/Christian alliance is the most powerful grouping in Lebanon. They have successfully beaten back Israeli invasions on two occasions and probably now possess the means to finish off the zionist state. Their main international backer, Iran, seems to have successfully thwarted efforts of Israel and US to isolate them with the recently held Non-Aligned Movement meeting, featuring the UN Sec Gen whom the US (and Canada and others) had pleaded not to attend, saying that his attendance would lend legitimacy to the Islamic regime, and the NAM in general, I suppose. If I recall correctly, some 120 nations including China, India and Egypt signed a letter in support of Iran's right to its nuclear programme. We can also throw in the US joint chief of staff publicly announcing that an Israeli attack on Iran would be reprehensible and illegal and other reports of US secret approaches to Iran. With Hamas, of course the big news is that in Egypt next door, with the first democratic elections in history, the Muslim Brotherhood came to power. Hamas is essentially a Palestinian branch office of the MB. If that is not a step forward for them, I don't know what could be. The main point for me re: these groups, is that they continue to survive. I think the clock is ticking on Israel as a European colony in Asia. Like Apartheid South Africa, they are on the wrong side of history. Those who oppose zionism have to hold fast and survive. If they can wait long enough, success will fall into their laps.

 

"has airpower been successful as a political instrument of Israeli policy and, most importantly, building the settlements around East Jerusalem?"

 

Stealing land, chasing off the natives, building houses and physically occupying them with zionist devotees is a successful tactic for empire builders. No argument there. Killing a few hundred women and children with the very latest in weaponry once or twice a decade is not going to bring out the white flag, no matter what they tell you.

 

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Stealing land, chasing off the natives, building houses...Yes!

(#291221)

...this, seems to be going just fine, thank you very much.

 

I am pro-West Bank Palestinian, but East Jerusalem and the Right of Return are nonnegotiable.

 

So, expect more...Stealing land, chasing off the natives, building houses by the Israelis.

 

Is life better for people in Lebanon? In Gaza? In Egypt?

 

Do they even have a future?

 

You will be hard pressed to make this argument.

 

I concede that Iran will eventually get an atomic bomb, for all the good that will do it...see North Korea and Cuba for that matter as to the long term effects of sanctions.

 

I am a committed social progressive, but the question you should be asking yourself, will Tehran or Beirut ever again be the happy, progressive, open cities they were in the 1970's?

 

This is the questions you need to be asking yourself, and if the answer is, No, then you need to ask, Why not?

 

I think you are on the wrong road my friend.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

 

 

 

 

Trav what in the world are you talking about?

(#291225)

Tehran was not a happy progressive city in the 70's. You see there was this little CIA trained organization called SAVAK running around torturing and killing people for the sin of not being sufficiently devoted to the Pahlavi dynasty. Or for writing books they didn't approve of. Or for no real reason at all.

 

As for Israel they have military superiority now but so did the crusader states at one time and while they lasted much longer than Israel has they fell in the end. If Israel continues on it's present course that will be it's fate as well. Some of the smarter Israeli's understand this but they're not the ones calling the shots.

A Different Place than It is Now, That's for Sure...

(#291227)

Just Scan the Pictures:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=tehran+1970&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=rr...

 

In the broad sweep of history you and Ahmadinejad may be correct, especially with Ahmadinejad 's 10,000 year ruler he is measuring by.

 

But in 10,000 years Iran may not be present either....

 

In our time frame, Settlements, as much as I may oppose them outside of East Jerusalem and environs, have been successful, as has the Israeli killing from the sky program.

 

You may not like it, but as a practical man...I see this as successful.

 

The question is equally, will Lebanon, Egypt and Iran survive in their present configuration? I see their dissolution much more probable than that of Israel, short term, (meaning the next half century)

 

Traveller

 

Edit: Are you implying that the Religious Police and Basij in Iran are better, more tolerant than the Shah's police were?

The current regime is probablyworse

(#291236)

but what you said was that Tehran was a happy progressive city in the 70's which it wasn't. It was more secular than it is today but it was still a police state with arbitrary arrest, torture and execution of dissidents. What Iran may have become if we had not overthrown Mossadegh and installed the Shah is a good question though.

 

On the other point Israel only survives because of outside aid which was also the case with the crusader states. Eventually that aid will stop and at that time Israel will fail unless it has managed to change the nature of it's relationship with the rest of the region. Given the current direction of it's leadership that's not going to happen. 

Disunity among the Arab states in the ME had been responsible

(#291234)
mmghosh's picture

for Crusading success, rather than military superiority.  

 

I disagree with Micky that European occupation of the ME is recent.  Europe (or Eurabia as white circles put it picturesquely) has been intertwined with the Middle East now for at least 200 years, after the disengagement at the end of the Crusades and the fall of Constantinople in the 15th century.  It could be said to have started with Napoleon's magnificient expedition into Egypt, the occupation of Algeria, the Gleichshaltung of French North Africa, the Suez Canal, British and French colonial rivalry in Egypt and continued into the Anglo-American Oil Company, the petrochemical industry in general,  the Kuwaiti Investment Office and so forth. Zionism is but a component of this.

can't survive as a wealthy, open democracy

(#291308)

I'm not arguing that places like Teheran are pleasant places to live or are not undergoing hardships. Because of international sanctions, all manner of goods, even medicines, are blocked from entering the country, the death penalty is harshly enforced and in many ways, women are treated as second class citizens. Palestinians have it even harder as they are required to carry papers which determine what zones they can and can't enter at what times - scenes straight out of Apartheid South Africa.

 

Do the Palestinians have a future, you ask. I think they will be around tomorrow. And the next day, if Israeli jets kill several hundred Palestinian women and children, I don't think they'll be flying the white flag the day after that. I've said the key to their victory lies in their determination to hold fast. I think they can beat the zionists at this game because justice and history are on their side, and the whole world knows it. A European enclave in Asia surrounded by implacable enemies can't survive as a wealthy, open democracy.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

The source for the second blockquote is...

(#291075)
Bird Dog's picture

...what?

What exactly do you mean by "social engineering in Afghan society"?

I disagree with your thesis that we're analogous to the imperialism of Nazi Germany, Imperial Rome, etc. If it were so, we'd still be in Iraq instead of abiding by a Strategic Framework Agreement. The more realistic moral to the story is that you can't succeed against an insurgency unless you have support of the people, and it helps when the people support the government in charge. Those factors existed in Iraq but could not be achieved in Afghanistan. Or Vietnam, for that matter.

 

Government is merely a servant – merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn’t. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

By social engineering I mean nation building

(#291194)

I put in the link below if you want to look.

 

By social engineering I mean nation building, specifically the effort (now on hold) to build a national army from scratch.

 

My point is not at all that US is analogous to Nazi Germany and Imperial Rome. US is a democracy and the others not. I think that is the crucial difference. US imperialism basically extends as far as the dollar and the markets (especially oil markets) where it's traded. It's a happy empire for the most part, but when Americans turn to force to subjugate a people, it is less successful, and less happy.

 

Your moral, "you can't succeed against an insurgency unless you have support of the people," is ambiguous. What people? The indigenous or the Americans? I'm thinking that Imperial Rome or the Nazis could succeed against others precisely because they didn't need the support of their own people. They weren't democracies.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Now that Osama bin Laden is dead, you over-emphasise American

(#291079)
mmghosh's picture

interest in the war in Afghanistan.  And technically, now that he is dead, they have won the 9/11 battle.

 

It seemed to me when I was in the USA this year that the vast majority of Americans are indifferent to the progress of the war, except the few I met whose kids were in the Forces.  No one is really bothered about the Taliban and who they oppress or not.  And why should there be?  There are other issues of much greater interest.  Perhaps foreign policy wonks (and we, here) give it too much importance.

 

As for Japan and Afghanistan, you seem to wish away the essential point - the pre-emptive attack on the USA and undeclared war.  Under those circumstances, anything goes as a response, as far as I can see.

 

In general, when pre-emptive strikes and undeclared wars are successful (as in the Six-Day War in the case of Israel) the verdict of history is in its favour.  When they go horribly wrong as in the case of Japan that ended with Nagasaki, or Afghan civilians droned the countries that perpetrated them can expect little sympathy.  Now, we can argue until the cows come home that the Afghan Taliban did not plan 9/11, and there were no Afghans on the planes.  The fact of the matter is that the al Qaeda leadership, and OBL were sitting in Afghanistan as the spiritual godfathers to the the highjackers.  And so they "got theirs".

 

The rest, COIN, who's killing who in AfPak, whether the Haqqani are terrorists is detail.

The Blockquote

(#291084)

is apparently from this: The Stinger Missile and U.S. Intervention in Afghanistan (Alan J. Kuperman), which has been excerpted all sorts of other places.

 

Here's a Foreign Affairs letter to the editor he penned with much the same story, along with a rebuttal.

 

Kuperman has an entry in conservapedia, which is focused on Kuperman's criticism of US intervention in Libya; his publication history suggests he's skeptical of "humanitarian interventions" generally.

Thanks for your efforts. You

(#291192)

Thanks for your efforts. You are correct about the source and here is the original link which for some reason I forgot to include in the diary:

 

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-79176.html

 

The comments are interesting. Remember all the fretting about the Taleban still having the Stingers? Seems that after 25 years or so, they will no longer be usable, whether they have them or not.

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh