Before 2008, a still-alive Kingsley Amis could have written the appropriately invective-filled obituary (via Robert Conquest) on Eric Hobsbawm, rather than the more hagiographic one in the Guardian.
But now we get the more nuanced view - and Eugene Genovese goes to the heart of the matter.
It is the Russian Revolution that is at the heart of Hobsbawm’s reading. He sees it as the principal spur to the great changes of the century. In his view, the revolutionary challenge from the left compelled capitalism to institute the deep restructuring that was required for its survival. (He also acknowledges, subtly and without reductionism, that capitalism’s political class was also responding to a Nazi threat.)
Naturally, those who merely have to experience imperialism and its consequences have a different view of imperialism from those who get to impose it - and this applies to the sundry Western imperialisms, Anglo-American, French, German or Russian, and derivatory Japanese. And for them (us) Hobsbawm's analysis remains coherent, especially when taken in conjunction with EP Thompson, Noam Chomsky and Christopher Hill. What consistent left wingers (named above) get right is that those who suffer left-wing imperialism need to shut up and like it (as with Hobsbawm Hungary and Czechoslovakia), as there is a need to have a necessary corrective to right-wing imperialism!
Neither view - the right wing one championing consumption by the few on behalf of the few, or the left wing one championing consumption by the few on behalf of the many - addresses the actual crisis today which is the practice of ever-increasing consumption itself.
Keeping my fingers crossed
(#291948)but I haven't seen any spam since the last modifications.
I blame it all on the Internet
The Spirit Abideth Forever & Ever
(#291950)Created by Traveller 10-1-12, from a photograph shot on 9-29-12
http://www.pbase.com/cichallenge/image/146427494
Traveller's developing Yellowstone Gallery is here: (Treat yourself for a happy look and wander)
http://www.pbase.com/traveller/yellowstone
Utah_Idaho_Montana is a separate clickable gallery. Also, first view of any image, please clock on original for size under the first image viewed, all others will then also be original. Lots of good facts presented also.
best Wishes, Traveller
Edit: I removed the actual photo not only to not clutter up Manish's important Diary, but also because it is a subtle image (actually), and shows better against a dark gray background. Or so this Artist thinks, and hence the link to an off-site Gallery.
Is there any left-wing imperialism anymore?
(#291953)China seems to throw its weight around as a classical economic imperialist...I guess you could call the pattern Business on the Outside, Party on the Inside. Most of the left-wing satellites have thrown off their ideological shackles along with the military ones, leaving the world to the tender mercies of different flavors of consumer-imperialism.
M Aurelius was probably right.
I'm gradually coming round to the view that China is benign
(#291964)or at least more benign than our former masters, which has been the traditional view here.
If nothing else than at least not desiring cultural imperialism.
literally anything can become right or wrong if the dominant class of the moment so wills it
This is a Hard Slog...But Extemely Valuable...A Caution...
(#291954)...it is the 3d link to Eugene Genovese and the New Republic that needs reading. I have slogged my way through the others first, and sometimes the very extensive comments, but it is the New Republic that is the essential reading.
But it is all hard reading...for example, just this snippet:
Under the actual conditions of world politics, the nationalist drives throughout the world, notwithstanding the risk of a descent into destructive tribalisms, may offer the only basis for resistance to the worldwide domination of big capital cut loose from social moorings.
All of these links and many of the comments for each of these links are...just worthy of serious and deep thought.
Well....next week for me.
Best Wishes, Traveller
Agree about Eugene Genovese's article
(#291962)there are several great insights. His death should also be remembered.
literally anything can become right or wrong if the dominant class of the moment so wills it
Really, the things people send me
(#291970)Any of you who don't believe this are all tools. Tools, do you hear?
CAN IT ALL BE COINCIDENCE?
by Don Fredrick, ©2012, blogging at The Obama Timeline<http://www.colony14.net/id668.html>
(Oct. 1, 2012)
As I noted in the introduction to my book, The Obama Timeline, a jury at a murder trial will often find the accumulated circumstantial evidence so overwhelming that a guilty verdict is obvious—even though there may be no witness to the crime. “The jurors in the Scott Peterson trial believed the collection of evidence more than they believed Scott Peterson. Among other things, the jury thought that being arrested with $15,000 in cash, recently-dyed hair, a newly-grown goatee, four cell phones, camping equipment, a map to a new girlfriend’s house, a gun, and his brother’s drivers license certainly did not paint a picture of a grieving husband who had nothing to do with his pregnant wife’s disappearance and murder.”
In the four years I have been gathering information about—and evidence against—Barack Hussein Obama, I have encountered hundreds of coincidences that strike me as amazing. None of those coincidences, by themselves, may mean much. But taken as a whole it is almost impossible to believe they were all the result of chance. Consider the Obama-related coincidences:
Obama just happened to know 60s far-left radical revolutionary William Ayers, whose father just happened to be Thomas Ayers, who just happened to be a close friend of Obama’s communist mentor Frank Marshall Davis, who just happened to work at the communist-sympathizing Chicago Defender with Vernon Jarrett, who just happened to later become the father-in-law of Iranian-born leftist Valerie Jarrett, who Obama just happened to choose as his closest White House advisor, and who just happened to have been CEO of Habitat Company, which just happened to manage public housing in Chicago, which just happened to get millions of dollars from the Illinois state legislature, and which just happened not to properly maintain the housing—which eventually just happened to require demolition.
Valerie Jarrett also just happened to work for the city of Chicago, and just happened to hire Michelle LaVaughan Robinson (later Obama), who just happened to have worked at the Sidley Austin law firm, where former fugitive from the FBI Bernardine Dohrn also just happened to work, and where Barack Obama just happened to get a summer job.
Bernardine Dohrn just happened to be married to William Ayers, with whom she just happened to have hid from the FBI at a San Francisco marina, along with Donald Warden, who just happened to change his name to Khalid al-Mansour, and Warden/al-Mansour just happened to be a mentor of Black Panther Party founders Huey Newton and Bobby Seale and a close associate of Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan, and al-Mansour just happened to be financial adviser to a Saudi Prince, who just happened to donate cash to Harvard, for which Obama just happened to get a critical letter of recommendation from Percy Sutton, who just happened to have been the attorney for Malcolm X, who just happened to know Kenyan politician Tom Mboya, who just happened to be a close friend of Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., who just happened to meet Malcolm X when he traveled to Kenya.
Obama, Sr. just happened to have his education at the University of Hawaii paid for by the Laubach Literacy Institute, which just happened to have been supported by Elizabeth Mooney Kirk, who just happened to be a friend of Malcolm X, who just happened to have been associated with the nation of Islam, which was later headed by Louis Farrakhan, who just happens to live very close to Obama’s Chicago mansion, which also just happens to be located very close to the residence of William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, who just happen to have been occasional baby-sitters for Malia and Natasha Obama, whose parents just happen not to mind exposing their daughters to bomb-making communists.
After attending Occidental College and Columbia University, where he just happened to have foreign Muslim roommates, Obama moved to Chicago to work for the Industrial Areas Foundation, an organization that just happened to have been founded by Marxist and radical agitator Saul “the Red” Alinsky, author of Rules for Radicals, who just happened to be the topic of Hillary Rodham Clinton’s thesis at Wellesley College, and Obama’s $25,000 salary at IAF just happened to be funded by a grant from the Woods Fund, which was founded by the Woods family, whose Sahara Coal company just happened to provide coal to Commonwealth Edison, whose CEO just happened to be Thomas Ayers, whose son William Ayers just happened to serve on the board of the Woods Fund, along with Obama.
Obama also worked on voter registration drives in Chicago in the 1980s and just happened to work with leftist political groups like the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) and Socialist International (SI), through which Obama met Carl Davidson, who just happened to travel to Cuba during the Vietnam War to sabotage the U.S. war effort, and who just happened to be a former member of the SDS and a member of the Committees of Correspondence for Democracy and Socialism, which just happened to sponsor a 2002 anti-war rally at which Obama spoke, and which just happened to have been organized by Marilyn Katz, a former SDS activist and later public relations consultant who just happened to be a long-time friend of Obama’s political hatchet man, David Axelrod.
Obama joined Trinity United Church of Christ (TUCC), whose pastor was Reverend Jeremiah Wright, a fiery orator who just happened to preach Marxism and Black Liberation Theology and who delivered anti-white, anti-Jew, and anti-American sermons, which Obama just happened never to hear because he just happened to miss church only on the days when Wright was at his “most enthusiastic,” and Obama just happened never to notice that Oprah Winfrey left the church because it was too radical, and just happened never to notice that the church gave the vile anti-Semitic Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan a lifetime achievement award.
Although no one had ever heard of him at the time, Obama just happened to receive an impossible-to-believe $125,000 advance to write a book about race relations, which he just happened to fail to write while using the cash to vacation in Bali with his wife Michelle, and despite his record of non-writing he just happened to receive a second advance, for $40,000, from another publisher, and he eventually completed a manuscript called Dreams From My Father, which just happened to strongly reflect the writing style of William Ayers, who just happened to trample on an American flag for the cover photograph of the popular Chicago magazine, which Obama just happened never to see even though it appeared on newsstands throughout the city.
Obama was hired by the law firm Miner, Banhill and Galland, which just happened to specialize in negotiating state government contracts to develop low-income housing, and which just happened to deal with now-imprisoned Tony Rezko and his firm Rezar, and with slum lord Valerie Jarrett, and the law firm’s Judson Miner just happened to have been a classmate of Bernardine Dohrn, wife of William Ayers.
In 1994 Obama represented ACORN and another plaintiff in a lawsuit against Citibank for denying mortgages to blacks (Buycks-Roberson v. Citibank Federal Savings Bank), and the lawsuit just happened to result in banks being blackmailed into approving subprime loans for poor credit risks, a trend which just happened to spread nationwide, and which just happened to lead to the collapse of the housing bubble, which just happened to help Obama defeat John McCain in the 2008 presidential election.
In 1996 Obama ran for the Illinois State Senate and joined the “New Party,” which just happened to promote Marxism, and Obama was supported by Dr. Quentin Yong, a socialist who just happened to support a government takeover of the health care system.
In late 1999 Obama purportedly engaged in homosexual activities and cocaine-snorting in the back of a limousine with a man named Larry Sinclair, who claims he was contacted in late 2007 by Donald Young, who just happened to be the gay choir director of Obama’s Chicago church and who shared information with Sinclair about Obama, and Young just happened to be murdered on December 23, 2007, just weeks after Larry Bland, another gay member of the church, just happened to be murdered, and both murders just happened to have never been solved. In 2008 Sinclair held a press conference to discuss his claims, and just happened to be arrested immediately after the event, based on a warrant issued by Delaware Attorney General Beau Biden, who just happens to be the son of Joe Biden.
In 2003 Obama and his wife attended a dinner in honor of Rashid Khalidi, who just happened to be a former PLO operative, harsh critic of Israel, and advocate of Palestinian rights, and who Obama claims he does not know, even though the Obamas just happened to have dined more than once at the home of Khalidi and his wife, Mona, and just happened to have used them as occasional baby-sitters. Obama reportedly praised Khalidi at the decidedly anti-Semitic event, which William Ayers just happened to also attend, and the event Obama pretends he never attended was sponsored by the Arab American Action Network, to which Obama just happened to have funneled cash while serving on the board of the Woods Fund with William Ayers, and one speaker at the dinner remarked that if Palestinians cannot secure a return of their land, Israel “will never see a day of peace,” and entertainment at the dinner included a Muslim children’s dance whose performances just happened to include simulated beheadings with fake swords, and stomping on American, Israeli, and British flags, and Obama allegedly told the audience that “Israel has no God-given right to occupy Palestine” and there has been “genocide against the Palestinian people by (the) Israelis,” and the Los Angeles Times has a videotape of the event but just happens to refuse to make it public.
In the 2004 Illinois Democrat primary race for the U.S. Senate, front-runner Blair Hull just happened to be forced out of the race after David Axelrod just happened to manage to get Hull’s sealed divorce records unsealed, which just happened to enable Obama to win the primary, so he could face popular Republican Jack Ryan, whose sealed child custody records from his divorce just happened to become unsealed, forcing Ryan to withdraw from the race, which just happened to enable the unqualified Obama to waltz into the U.S. Senate, where, after a mere 143 days of work, he just happened to decide he was qualified to run for President of the United States.
Obama just happened to save $300,000 on the purchase of a $1.65 million Chicago mansion for which he deposited only $1,000 in earnest money, while the seller’s adjacent empty lot which was appraised at no more than $500,000 just happened to be sold at the inflated price of $625,000 to Rita Rezko, who just happened to earn only $37,000 per year working for Cook County government, and who just happened to be married to Tony Rezko, who just happened to be Obama’s main money man for his political campaigns, and who only days before the Obama mansion purchase just happened to obtain a $3.5 million loan from wealthy Iraqi Nadhmi Auchi, who just happened to have been kicked out of Iraq, and who just happened to have been convicted of corruption charges in France, and who just happened to ask Rezko to ask then-U.S. Senator Obama to help him obtain a visa to travel to the United States.
Rita Rezko just happened to borrow the money for the $625,000 empty lot from the Mutual Bank of Harvey, which just happened to be run by Tony Rezko’s pal Amrish Mahajan, whose wife Anita just happened to have been charged with fraudulently receiving $2 million in Illinois taxpayer dollars for drug tests never performed by her company, K. K. Bio-Science, which just happened to have a no-bid contract with the state, and whose computers just happened to disappear right before investigators arrived to take them away for evidence.
Obama just happened to obtain a $1.32 million mortgage for his mansion even though the payments of $8,000 per month (plus at least $1,500 per month in property taxes) exceeded 50 percent of his $162,100 U.S Senate salary income, and even though Michelle Obama was claiming that she and her husband were still paying off substantial student loans and were struggling to pay for piano lessons for their daughters, one of whom just happens to look remarkably like one of the daughters of Malcolm X.
Obama just happened to obtain his mansion mortgage from Northern Trust Bank, whose Board of Directors just happened to include Susan Crown, who just happened to be part of the wealthy Crown family, which just happened to donate to Obama’s campaigns, and which just happened to have ownership in defense contractor General Dynamics Corporation, and the Crown family just happened to sit on the board of energy company Exelon, formerly known as Commonwealth Edison, which just happened to have had Thomas Ayers as its CEO, and the Crown family also owned the Maytag appliance company, which just happened to move its operations to Mexico, after its employees just happened to donate to Obama’s campaign, after he just happened to pledge that he would keep their jobs in Galesburg, Illinois.
In June 2005, just months after Obama became a U.S. Senator, Michelle Obama just happened to be named a “non-executive director” of the board of TreeHouse Foods, a supplier of Wal-Mart, for a salary of $51,200 in 2005 and $101,083 in 2006, and she just happened to be given 7,500 TreeHouse stock options, worth approximately $72,375, even though she just happened to know nothing about the private sector or running a business.
In 2006 Obama pushed for a $1 million earmark for the University of Chicago, and his wife Michelle just happened to be promoted to Vice-President of Community and External Affairs for the hospitals with a salary increase from $121,900 to $316,962, and she just happened to receive public relations help from Obama’s political strategist David Axelrod, whose mother just happened to write for a communist newspaper.
In 2006 Sarah P. Herlihy, an associate of the Chicago law firm of Kirkland and Ellis, whose employees later contributed $87,722 to Obama’s presidential campaign, and whose partner Bruce I. Ettleson just happened to be a member of Obama’s campaign finance committee, just happened to write a paper calling for the elimination of the “natural born citizen” requirement in the U.S. Constitution.
Obama just happened to visit Kenya in 2006 to support his cousin, Raila Odinga, a Muslim socialist candidate for president, who just happened to have ties to both al-Qaeda and Libya’s Muammar Qaddafi, and who just happened to have been educated in communist East Germany, and who just happened to name his son Fidel, and who just happened to plan on establishing Shari’ah Muslim law in Kenya, and whose activities prompted the Kenyan government to lodge an official protest of Obama’s passport abuse and misconduct, and Obama’s actions just happened to have been denounced by the U.S. State Department as being in direct opposition to U. S. National Security, and after Odinga, for whom Obama just happened to have raised $950,000, lost the election, his Muslim followers just happened to burn Christian women and children alive in a church where they had sought refuge.
In 2006 Obama endorsed Alexi Giannoulias in his race for Illinois State Treasurer and stated that he is “…one of the most outstanding young men I could ever hope to meet”—even though Giannoulias just happened to be only 29 years old and even though his family’s Broadway Bank just happened to finance Chicago crime figures like Michael “Jaws” Giorango, a Chicago thug with convictions for bookmaking and promoting prostitution, and even though virtually all of Chicago’s Democrat politicians were keeping their distance from Giannoulias, whose reputation was so questionable he even failed to get the endorsement of the Chicago Democrat Party—which just happens to almost never be concerned about questionable reputations.
Obama’s mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, once worked for the Ford Foundation’s Asia program, which just happened to be run by Peter Geithner, who just happened to be the father of Timothy Geithner, who just happened to neglect to pay Social Security taxes on much of his income, which just happened to somehow qualify him to be Obama’s Treasury Secretary.
During the 2008 campaign Obama’s passport records just happened to have been illegally searched by an employee of a firm headed by John O. Brennan, and Lt. Quarles Harris, Jr., who was cooperating with federal investigators in connection with the incident, just happened to be found with a bullet in his head, and the murder just happened never to be solved, and Obama later just happened to make Brennan his terrorism and intelligence advisor.
On election night in 2008 in Chicago’s Grant Park, Obama just happened to wear a black suit and a red tie, and his older daughter just happened to wear a red dress, and his younger daughter just happened to wear a stark black dress, and his wife Michelle just happened to wear an arguably unattractive black dress that appeared to have a giant red X design, which just happened to prompt some to wonder if their clothing just happened to denote black power, communism, and Malcolm X, and at the very least prompted others to wonder why anyone would have his daughter wear a jet-black dress for a celebratory occasion—or where one could even just happen to find a store that sells black dresses for little girls.
From election night forward there are hundreds of other “just happeneds,” not the least of which is the long-form birth certificate released by Obama in April 2011 which just happened to consist of multiple image layers, including various objects which can be separated and rotated with computer software—which just happens to be impossible if a birth certificate is merely scanned and not computer-constructed by a forger.
Oh, and Obama just happened to have used more than one Social Security number over the years, and one of them is associated with 713 Hart Senate Office Building and starts with the digits 282, which signifies issuance in Ohio, a state in which Obama just happened to have never lived or worked, and another Social Security number used by Obama starts with 042, which signifies Connecticut, another state in which Obama just happened to have never lived or worked, and it just happened that no one in the mainstream media has ever bothered to ask Obama why he has used multiple Social Security numbers or why the 042 number comes up as invalid in the E-Verify system used by employers to confirm whether immigrant job applicants have valid numbers.
I could go on… but you get the idea.
Don Fredrick
September 30, 2012
P.S. If Obama just happens to win reelection on November 6, remember that hyperinflation just happens to be the inescapable consequence of printing trillions of dollars to cover massive government deficits.
They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864
It Just So Happens
(#291971)that Politifact and other debunkers have already fisked many of those Just So Happens stories.
Those, that is, that don't fisk themselves (fancy black dresses for little girls are easy to find).
Footnotes
(#291983)Missing.
I see a lot of assertions and nothing to back it up. Kind of sad. The best one is the socialist candidate in Kenya who wanted to introduce Sharia law. Hint: socialists want no part of religion in government. Also: Hillary Clinton was a Goldwater supporter in college.
One thing that no one considers is that Obama is actually a dyed-in-the-wool Communist but governs as a moderate because he simply wants to win elections. I always wonder about folks like that. Frankly, I don't care what people "really" believe. I only care about what they do in office. Obama might privately despise white folks. I really don't care, so long as he does what I want him to do.
The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas
I'd say yes
(#292066)Does Obama, or any other politician who makes it to the top, have a hidden agenda worked out between himself and his backers that is never spoken of in public? I'd say yes. What more do you need?
You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh
Biden's advice to Obama before the debate
(#291989)Comedy Gold.
The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas
I guess he saw
(#291997)There's Something About Mary.
I blame it all on the Internet
Iran sanctions working?
(#291996)http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/03/iran-currency-crisis-tehran-...
literally anything can become right or wrong if the dominant class of the moment so wills it
Belief in religion makes people insane part ***
(#292001)http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/10/ivory/christy-text
literally anything can become right or wrong if the dominant class of the moment so wills it
For the avid marketing stunt collector.
(#292004)http://pickyglutton.com/2012/09/28/human-meat-weskerandson-butchers/
literally anything can become right or wrong if the dominant class of the moment so wills it
And The Spoils Go To Mr. Cabrera
(#292014)Miguel Cabrera wins BA, HR, and RBI titles to win first batting Triple Crown in MLB since 1967.
He'll win the AL MVP too, even though in reality Angel super-rookie Mike Trout had a better season. The "get off my lawn!" anti-sabermetricians will win the day, and I can't even get all that annoyed about it. Heck of an accomplishment by MC.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Hmmmm
(#292026)These fans allegedly watched every single MLB game on TV this season. Taking off days into account, that's about fourteen games a day for six months straight, taking an average of about two hours and fifty minutes per game. I suspect that--along with abundant use of "fast forward" and quite possibly Hermione Granger's Time Turner--the word "watched" is being used rather loosely here.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Meanwhile, in other news about the Armageddon ...
(#292119)Turkey authorizes military operations in Syria
after a Syrian mortar was fired into Turkey which killed 5 and injured 8.
Turkey has already fired artillery into Syria in retaliation
As I'm sure you all know, Turkey is a NATO ally and the alliance is pledged (and I'm certain would respond) if Turkey was attacked by Syria - which has already happened, although I'm not sure if a single bomb is the trigger for NATO involvement. This would be unlike Libya, as we're committed to the defense of NATO allies. But it sure would be a hell of a mess, and not one that we could avoid.
I blame it all on the Internet
Too Funny
(#292130)Reince Priebus Forced Back Into Ancient Puzzle Box After Being Tricked Into Saying Name Backwards
I blame it all on the Internet
MLB Postseason Gone Wild
(#292193)Bud Selig's fun new postseason structure gets going tomorrow, when the wild card teams in each league face off in one game do or die playoffs to see who gets to face off against the teams with the regular season's best records in the divisional playoffs (in this case, the Yankees and (remarkably enough) the Nationals). After all the fanfare, the results seem likely to be an anticlimax: Texas and Atlanta dominated their opponents in the regular season, and seem likely to do so on Friday, sending Baltimore and St. Louis packing after their brief reprieve from postseason oblivion. After which they will be facing the best teams in their leagues having burned their number one starters in the act of survival. The days of soft living for MLB wild card teams are *over*.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
More unpuckering
(#292205)The unemployment rate has fallen below 8% for the first time in four years. The payroll survey shows a rather lackluster 114k jobs added, but the real meat here is in the household survey, which shows both that labor force participation increased and that total numbers increased 873k. Household usually as accurate as payroll, but these numbers would go a long way to explaining why Romney's numbers still aren't all that good and why consumer confidence is better than the numbers would suggest. Moreover, payroll numbers for the last couple of months have been revised upward. And finally, a small nugget hidden in the report...
That means that the state and federal employment drag on total employment is finally lifting.
First birthers, now numberers
(#292231)Republicans are claiming a "conspiracy" that fixed the job numbers reported today.
You got to hand it to these guys, they won't let something simple like reality stop them. Looks like they're going full metal Nixon on the BLS.
I blame it all on the Internet
Attention Traveller
(#292245)I bet you could get some nifty photos from this.
I blame it all on the Internet
Thank You, Hank, Bookmarked and Printed...What Was Great
(#292249)...were all the pictures at the bottom...like 107 of them added.
Very cool.
Best Wishes, Traveller
I was hoping
(#292250)that you'd drive over and take some pictures yourself. You're better than those damn AP photographers!
I blame it all on the Internet
It Takes A Calm, Steady Hand To Sink A 159 Foot Putt
(#292264)*countless golfers reach for the nearest bong*
Not close to the longest putter shot ever, by the way. Can't believe the SOBs didn't give that one to you as a freebie, Fergus. ]:-)
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Setting The Mood For Next Month
(#292266)Adele isn't Shirley Bassey (who is still with us at 75, by the way) but she's pretty darned good in her own right:
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
If We're Going to Have Fun With Skyfall...Let's Go All The Way
(#292270)...but the Adele song was very nicely done. Thanks
Best Wishes, Traveller
A Modest Proposal
(#292268)Do away with foul line umpires in the postseason. There's no real indication that they improve the quality of umpiring: indeed, they are involved in a disproportionate number of the most appalling bungled calls in the postseason. They're meant to be a reward for the umpires' union, and their performance over the years hasn't merited it. Four umpires works fine in the regular season and would be fine in the postseason.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
MLB Division Round Predictions
(#292269)NL:
Washington beats St. Louis (say thank you to the crappy umpiring and bad Atlanta defense that got you this far, guys): 3 games to 1
Cincinnati beats San Francisco: 3 games to 2.
AL:
New York Yankees beat Baltimore: 3 games to 1
Oakland beats Detroit: 3 games to 2
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Caught this on CNN. I'd vote for such politicians anywhere.
(#292367)literally anything can become right or wrong if the dominant class of the moment so wills it
Wait Until They Find The First Politician. . .
(#292383). . .who decided to go the evil route in Fallout 3:
Never could bring myself to go this way--but for the curious YouTube has preserved playing styles that make this look like TeleTubbies material. One of those players could be President someday. . .
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Call of Duty - Modern Warfare 2: Airport Mission
(#292389)Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 - Airport Mission (No Russian)
"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."
Major Kong
LOL...An Airport is an Airport...
(#292391)...responding to a comment, "If this was an American Airport, this would be the most popular played level in History."
The sound in these things is really very loud!
This is running commentary buy me as I watch the Video...This is NOT very nice what they are doing!
Why do our guys never get shot! Or, was that the purpose of the blood on the lens at around 4:50...then it was just wiped away?
Okay, blood on the lens is our guy, or me being killed?
Not nice to leave an American body behind as reprisal bait!
Traveller
The others with machine guys were rogue Russians
(#292405)wiki write up on it. I learned quickly that if you shot the Non-playable characters that were shooting the civilians, the mission ended.
In the game, except on the hardest difficulty, you can get shot and heal like you're Wolverine, blood shows you're wounded and another close hit and you're dead.
"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."
Major Kong
Counterstrike ruined FPSs for me.
(#292450)Nothing ever managed to come close to that.
Of course, having 2 kids under the age of 4 ruined Counterstrike for me.
Either their awake, in which case whatever screen you are looking at they want to have Thomas the Tank Engine/Cars/Madagascar/whatever on or else their asleep, in which case you should be too, since they won't be for long.
Black Ops possibly surpasses Counterstrike
(#292453)I haven't played Counterstrike in forever though (there's a newer version coming out soon)
The main online game type for Black Ops makes camping too hard to be useful.
But there are still a number of people that put shame on humanity, the parents that let their 10 year old play games like that online and for hours a day, and the inevitable 1 member on each clan that likes to spout off about what they call the "f**g*ts" and to top it off is too stupid to realize that he's on a team working together vs random people, some that have some serious lag.
I'd like to have a $ for every time a killcam shows me not even raising my gun when I aimed and fired a few rounds off..
"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."
Major Kong
Yeah,
(#292455)lag was always a big issue for me, but the script kiddies were the real problem. I was delighted with Valve's work in that area - treatig the mods like a virus and acting accordingly. Didn't eliminate cheating but it helped a whole lot.
I know I'm the only person on the planet, but I never really minded camping. It's supposed to be a simulation approximating real life and if ambush or sniping are the best tactics then I'm happy to either use them or have to fight them. Level design was usually good enough that there was pretty much always a way around. Some teamwork or coordination needed but that's to the good imo.
Another one that annoyed me was people getting upset when someone bought the 50 cal and then, shock, horror, used it like you would a 50 cal - large amounts of suppressive fire including through doors, boxes etc.
Camping is Absolutely
(#292457)legitimate gameplay.
And for a thumblebum like me, absolutely the only option.
Sitting in one spot, ambushing, and then relocating is one thing
(#292499)I'm talking about prolonged hiding in one spot with a sniper rifle that's one hand hit, one kill.
If they relocate it's ok.
"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."
Major Kong
If it was CDG
(#292396)their guns either would have been delayed in transit or nicked by the ground staff, they wouldn't have got 50 meters without getting lost and finding themselves back where they started, the roof would have fallen in at the first sign of an explosion, maybe even before, and for sure they NEVER would have made their connection with that Ambulance. No one makes a connection in CDG.
From the you tube comments:
"its-funny-when-you-shoot-the-suitcases-all-their-stuff-comes-out" That's gamer mentality right there.
Mmghosh, what you don't know is
(#292434)Colleen Lachoivich is Catchy's alter ego.
Edit: Did I screw that name up or what.
In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome.
"I Passed The Mick Tonight"
(#292382)Still ten days short of his twentieth birthday and heading into his first MLB postseason, Bryce Harper is not what most people expected him to be. Except for the part where he's already a well-above average MLB player at an age where most hitters in pro ball are learning to hit A ball pitching, and the sky's the limit. Time will tell whether Mike Trout ends up being the better of the two in the long run, but for right now? Mr. Harper is the one getting the first taste of the postseason.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Time For Uncle Euro To Put Away The Wallet
(#292414)Maybe a few years of Greece playing at being Germany circa 1925 will get the message across.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Greece Could try to Collect Taxes Like Everyone Else....
(#292424)...I know its a novel idea, but it could work. Likewise Italy, tax cheating is a way of life and without consequences.
Traveller
True
(#292438)But if Greece is like Italy, and my guess is that it's worse, the tax burden must be insanely high in theory, but low in practice. So they would need tax reform, but that's never politically easy.
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
The Problem With Tax Collection is that Avoidance is...
(#292440)...the natural province of the rich...the poor also, but it is not so easy for them. So, I suppose, collection and reform co-jointly.
Best Wishes, Traveller
History repeats itself
(#292430)how's that going to work out for the rest of us?
I blame it all on the Internet
I see nothing wrong with the the ECB's mis-steps
(#292432)discrediting liberal democracy in the Mediterranean.
"We had to destroy the country in order to save it"
(#292441)I remember hearing something like that as a kid, it didn't turn out too well. Even if you don't actually destroy the country.
I blame it all on the Internet
Not fair Hank, most of us weren't around for
(#292497)the Roman invasion of Gaul. I also think it's funny that you're replying to the guy who has the highest probability of actually having read about you:)
In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome.
You'll be lucky
(#292500)to make it to my age. I hear paper cuts can be brutal.
I blame it all on the Internet
Hah, paper cuts. I'll have you know that I have
(#292504)layers and layers of scar tissue from paper cuts. Of course all that did was convince me to get one of those little dishes with a wet sponge that I tap every so often, viola, no paper cuts. I'll also have you know that I carry a large sharp knife. It's to cut the fella who tries to get frisky with my pen on a chain. I'll tell you one more thing. When push comes to shove I know how to eff somebody's world up with a staple remover.
In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome.
Ha. Your pen.
(#292508)I blame it all on the Internet
After All The Years. . .
(#292436). . .of whining about how Saddam "I Really, Really Enjoy Invading My Neighbors And Trying To Get Nukes" Hussein wasn't a real threat, liberals are trying to convince us that Greece is the next Nazi Germany? That's too pathetic even to be considered bad comedy.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Yeah
(#292439)there was never a European country that was economically destroyed, then had an amazing recovery under fascism and started seizing land on their borders.
Of course, Iraq wasn't economically destroyed until we destroyed them. BTW, still no WMDs. Still waiting for an explanation from the wargasm crowd on that one.
I blame it all on the Internet
Sure, It Was Called Germany
(#292444)The idea that Greece--or Italy, these days--is the next Nazi Germany is what doesn't pass the laugh test.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Neither did Germany in the late 20s nt
(#292445).
I blame it all on the Internet
Silly
(#292446)Germany had a history of being a threat to the whole of Europe and beyond--that's why they were under those economic sanctions in the first place. Greece has a history of not being able to get around a standoff with post WWII Turkey when they want something. Germany's economy was wrecked by war and reparations--Greece's economy was wrecked because they're a bunch of socialist idiots who haven't figured out that someone needs to pay the bill for all those welfare state goodies. See the difference? Rebuilding their economy to where it isn't a pathetic wreck--much less a threat to their neighbors--would require them to actually work. This seems unlikely. If they go the terrorist route because working is repulsive to them, we can blow them straight to hell as an object lesson to others. Either way, it's a workable solution.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
I'm not saying that Greece is the next Germany
(#292448)I am saying that destroying an economy - and since Greece doesn't control their own currency (big mistake) it is being destroyed by outside forces - leads to all kinds of results. The rise of a fascist party is a big red flag, especially to someone who seems to drop the word "appeasement" at every opportunity.
Greece's problems have to do with government loans made with falsified numbers provided by Wall Street, not with their socialist state properties. Greeks also work longer hours than most of their EU counterparts, so it's not that they're lazy. The wealthy don't pay their taxes, the government is corrupt, but the average guy in the street is expected to go into penury to fix it. That's not going to lead to a good outcome. The free market fairy isn't what's needed to fix the problem here.
And stop the internet tough guy talk. You know people laugh at that, right?
I blame it all on the Internet
I think Hank's point is that there are honest to god
(#292442)blackshirts running around roughing up minorities in Greece. If we want to get all analogical, we could say that might put us anywhere from 1919 to 1934, historically speaking.
M Aurelius was probably right.
Easy Sailing In Forvm Pick'vm This Week
(#292428)Best record: 10-2
Worst Record: 7-5
Going into the Sunday Night game. . .
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Oh Hankenstein. Tried a new whisky.
(#292431)It was a first x 2. First, I've never had this whiskey and other first, it's the first bottle of Canadian I ever bought. The stuff in question is called Collingwood. So far I'm liking it far better than I expected. Why Canadian? I made a deal with a Canadian co-worker to drink CR straight and then drink a decent Bourbon straight so he could understand that CR is a disinfectant. My part of the deal was if he complied I'd drink a Canadian whiskey. He complied.
In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome.
But he still likes Crown Royal?
(#292435)Broke out some Four Roses the other night with some colleagues and got some people to try. "Wow, this actually tastes good!" etc. I'm doing my part to convert the heathen.
M Aurelius was probably right.
Ever hear of High West whiskey/rye?
(#292472)They make both. From Utah (I think). I tried their basic rye and liked it... I think it was a 16 year? I never had rye before, but it was spicy without being harsh, and less sweet than bourbon. Drank it nearly neat, with a splash of cold water and a single ice cube (whiskey loving friend poured it). Nice looking bottle with a Mexican glass kind of look.
I rarely ever drink brown liquors, so I defer to the judgment of the panel of experts here at the forvm.
I've seen it on the shelves
(#292481)it's a bit expensive for me. I do like rye though.
If you ever find Rittenhouse Rye (bonded 100 proof) buy as much as you can. They don't make much and it goes fast.
I blame it all on the Internet
Rittenhouse @ ~25 a Bottle
(#292487)really is a terrific buy.
My usual spots hereabouts don't usually run out. But you're making me nervous.
Gotta run.
High West! I've had Diner There....(and Jack & Honey)
(#292483)http://www.highwest.com/
We did sip some whiskey, but what do I know/
I did this weekend though try Jack Daniels mixed with honey...has anyone tried this?
Considering I don't like or drink hard alcohol at all, I found it to be surprisingly smooth and actually sip-able.
Best Wishes, Traveller
Pranky, what you're doing wrong
(#292501)is that you're not trying to join the panel of experts on whisk(e)y here at the Forvm. I stay away from the term 'brown liquor' because there are a lot of brown liquors I've never tried and am unwilling to do so if I have an option.
In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome.
Jordan, I don't know man. I mean, he is Canadian
(#292496)and them folks are weird. Really, nice folks but just g-dd-mn weird. I knew a Canadian officer a while back who celebrated Oh Canada Day by cooking out in a dashiki, I sh*t you not. I can understand something French or English or French-English or a Celine Dion T-shirt or something, but a dashiki. That'd be like me celebrating the 4th of July in a turban, which I did, as I was inspired by my friendly neighborhood Canadian.
In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome.
I don't smoke dope. I don't drink bourbon...
(#292503)M Aurelius was probably right.
Canadian whiskey is like Canadians
(#292518)bland and inoffensive, unless it's at a hockey game.
I blame it all on the Internet
All Wet
(#292437)There's a definite downside to having a multi-tiered playoff system in a sport that can be readily disrupted by seasonally normal weather--there are twice as many places that Mother Nature can f*** up the schedule.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
OK, maybe they really are a democracy
(#292456)Libyan parliament tosses out prime minister
It's semi-anarchy and no one is firmly in charge, but what little authority exists does seem to really reside in the new parliament. So, given the loss of Mali, we can upgrade the net result of the Libya operation from -1 to a zero, at least with respect to number of fairly elected governments. With respect to countries controlled by AQ and allies we've still lost.
I'm not willing to back dictatorships
(#292458)in order to keep small-time thugs out of power in entirely different countries. That kind of 'realpolitik' has had a supremely crappy track record these past 60 years or so.
M Aurelius was probably right.
There's some space between backing and bombing
(#292462)and that space is where I think we ought to be.
Sitting on our hands while a popular uprising
(#292464)gets crushed by a loathesome autocrat and his mercenary army...that space?
M Aurelius was probably right.
To put it bluntly, yes.
(#292492)It's just not our business and there's no firm proof that net civilian lives were saved.
You should have stopped at "business"
(#292494)I don't have a problem selling democrats arms to overthrow a dictator, but I have a problem if we do much more than that in terms of military action.
NMP as they say at work. Not my problem.
If we intervene in one popular uprising, we have to intervene in all of them. If we start in Libya, then I demand we go full Wolfowitz (or maybe full Trotsky) and invade Saudi Arabia, Syria, North Korea, Cuba, etc.
The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas
Of course in Saudi Arabia
(#292495)we're selling arms to the govt putting down the popular uprising.
Jesus in a Jumpsuit, stiner. What can I do
(#292502)to make you stop treating the world like some kind of algebra problem? Other than having somewhat unpleasant governments your list of countries has nothing at all in common. The principle you're laying down, "If we're gonna invade one country, by God we'd better invade 'em all!" doesn't survive even basic scrutiny. The answer to the question "why don't we do the same thing in country X as we did in country Y" probably has something to do with the fact that geography, history, politics, money and military opportunity are completely different in all of those places.
M Aurelius was probably right.
The answer to
(#292511)why we bombed Libya and not somewhere else is some misguided sense of obligation that says since the UK helped enable our misadventure in Iraq, we needed to help enable theirs.
The reason the UK and the rest of the EU wanted to bomb Libya was basically the same reason the dog licked himself. It looked easy, and it was. But then the toppling-the-dictator part always is easy, it's the later part that's hard.
As I recall
(#292513)it was more Italy pushing for it than the UK. The fact that Libya sends most of its oil to Europe probably has something to do with it.
I blame it all on the Internet
There is no later part in this case.
(#292516)No occupation of Libya destined to go on for a decade with US soldiers trying to win hearts and minds by getting their testicles blown off by roadside bombs. Qaddafi's gone at virtually no cost to us, the popular revolution has its chance to do what it will, and if it's a risky bet to bank on the eventual outcome in Libyan parliament, it's not a bet that's going to cost much either way. And hey, there's now a Libyan parliament.
M Aurelius was probably right.
Grip the wheel tight and pump the brakes
(#292521)You're swerving man, from idealist saving the freedom fighters from slaughter a few comments back, to hard nosed realist saying this won't cost much.
I have to agree that the loss of Mali probably won't cost us much - although you never know for sure - but the people that live there might think it's not such a small deal:
I'm not that worried about the training ground - it doesn't take much space to run a terror camp and there are already plenty of places to hide one - but the suffering this caused at least partially cancels any improvements in Libya.
So help fix Mali. -nt-
(#292536).
M Aurelius was probably right.
Do you have a specific proposal?
(#292543)Invade? Bomb the crap out it, and hope it was the last domino? Massively arm, say, Algeria, and ask them to do the job for us? Send some really sincere and tasteful apology cards, the special kind you have to go all the way to a Hallmark shop to get?
Mali has asked for help, as have Nigeria, Libya, and other
(#292545)neighbors. It looks like we're going to help, not clear yet how. Are you in favor of helping Mali regain its northern territory from AQIM?
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2012/oct/06/us-us-north-africa-terror/
M Aurelius was probably right.
It's more in line to why people would see a crappy movie
(#292535)that has a A-list start in it.
Libya had name recognition, it featured a well known dictator, the ball already started rolling, and people could easily hope that it would likely end up better after major fighting ending if a different group coming out with control.
"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."
Major Kong
Do you know me?
(#292588)I treat everything like a kind of algebra problem. I'm not going to stop anytime soon. I don't like when anything is outside of my little boxes and if there is something, it must go back in. Seriously, I'm mildly obsessive-compulsive.
Here's the proposition:
We should invade Libya because of X.
It therefore follows that if other countries also have the quality of X we should also invade them. Because if X is a good reason to invade Libya, it's a good reason to invade any country.
The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas
But in human affairs, X isn't X
(#292589)it's a nonlinear equation with a wide variety of independent and dependent variables. It's also non-homogenous and aperiodic. You're going to have to get a bit past algebra to even attempt to solve these.
I blame it all on the Internet
Advanced Quantum Mechanics?
(#292590)...where what is being observed is changed from the simple fact of being observed? And possibly a fundamental change at that from being observed.
I think that maybe human life is like this.
Traveller
Quantum superposition.
(#292592)You'll have to talk to Romney about holding two entirely different positions at the same time. :)
M Aurelius was probably right.
You very bad math. Very bad! *shakes finger*
(#292599)Can't tell if you're kidding, but solve for X a dozen times or so if you want to see how your math works out.
X = "there's a popular uprising" = Greece
X = "is controlled by a dictator" = Iraq, Cuba, North Korea, Uzbekistan, Saudi Arabia
X = "can be paralyzed by coastal attack" = Vancouver, Chile, Hong Kong
X = "is an active combat zone with civilians in danger" = Israel, Lebanon, Pakistan, Sudan, etc. etc.
M Aurelius was probably right.
You're distorting this quite a bit
(#292608)This all started with Libya throwing out their PM. You said you didn't want to back a dictatorship to keep democratically-elected thugs out of power. Super. I agree with that. We should never back a dictatorship under any circumstances.
Eeyn came back with " we could have done nothing" to which you replied with "and let Gadaffi kill all those people?"
Now your actual reasons for why we should do *something* to help the Libyan people are:
1) There was a popular uprising.
2) The country was ruled by a dictator.
3) He has a mercenary army.
I'm going to assume that #3 was literary flair and that you would not have been A-OK if the army was not made up of mercenaries.
Now we have 2 variables to solve for. The proposition becomes "we should commit troops to assisting a popular uprising that seeks depose a dictator?"
I assume that because we should do it for Libya, that we should do it for any country similarly situated. If the Republic of Bibya had the same situation, I assume you'd arrive at the same position. What I'm saying is that if it's a good idea to invade / assist / whatever in Libya, it is also a good idea to invade / assist / whatever in Bibya.
In my opinion there is exactly one reason to invade another country, and that reason is if that country is threatening American sovereignty. That civilians are being murdered is not a good reason. One reason is because we are not Team America - World Police. Another more practical reason is that once we are Team America - World Police, we have to be consistent. And once some backward African dictator starts murdering his own people, we're obligated to insert ourselves. If we're going to do that, Romney's budget might be low re: the military.
The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas
But we are Team America - World Police.
(#292613)We have been since 1943 or so, when we decided that the best way to win the next World War would be to intervene in regional conflicts (like, say, a Sino-Japanese war) before they become global conflicts. Also since 1948 or so, when we decided that Soviet communism was a threat to American sovereignty wherever it went. We are founding members of the United Nations, whose charter is to intervene in regional conflicts to prevent them from becoming global conflicts. We have massive US military installations around the world, along with "friendly" near-permanent occupations of a number of countries we regard as ongoing security threats.
That you're suggesting we *shouldn't be* Team America - World Police is more than a little strange, given that we have been exactly that for nearly 70 years now. The isolationist ship has long since sailed, and I'm afraid you weren't on it.
My actual reasons for thinking helping Libya was a good idea:
M Aurelius was probably right.
+1. After Iran, Vietnam, Iraq and sundry other
(#292620)interventions, plus multiple blue water navies, SLBM capabilities and now pioneers and leaders in drone tech, it does sound extremely naive to claim a non-desire to interfere in the affairs of other nations.
This is not a believable state of affairs.
literally anything can become right or wrong if the dominant class of the moment so wills it
The Thirteen Points
(#292630)1) is clearly not a general proposition - surely you don't support popular and successful uprisings in general, for example, an uprising in Serbia to get those Croats out of the neighborhood. I'll take it you mean uprisings with some more or less acceptable intent, which could be conceded in the case of Libya even though the uprising was a mix of democratic, Islamist democratic, and straight up Islamist elements.
2) is badly flawed when one considers what the the last few words imply. Pretty much all governments use force to suppress serious threats to their existence. Democracies are no exception. But you specify "dictator". The conclusion one can draw is that brutal responses are legitimate if the people engaging in them have democratic credentials. A whole 'nother debate wrapped up in 10 words...
3) OK, the presence of mercenaries as evidence that the govt does not have popular legitimacy. But we already knew that.
4) OK, this one is necessary, but hardly sufficient.
5) This cuts against you. If other NATO nations intended to do the job anyway, there was no need for us.
6 & 7 & 8) all amount to "it was low hanging fruit". Again, a necessary condition for any optional war, but not sufficient.
9) This is the real core of the debate. The problem I see here is that the rebels were mistreating plenty of civilians. A case could be made that a regime that kills civilians does not deserve our military support, and pointing out that that some other guy is worse doesn't change the fact that we were aiding and abetting the slaughter of civilians. We're back to the not-voting-vs-endorsing-the-lesser-evil debate combined with the inaction-equals-action debate, both of which I disagree with you on.
10 & 11) This would be less laughable if we weren't -very publicly and at exactly the same time - helping dictators suppress human rights in KSA and Bahrain precisely because we valued stability above justice and human rights. True, some Libyan fighting for his life probably didn't care about KSA/Bahrain compared to the help we offered, but Libya is a tiny country and rest of the Arab world can see the whole picture.
12) The speech was just more American BS. That's been proved in KSA vs the people, King of Bahrain vs the people, Israel vs Palestine, Turkey vs Israel, etc. No one believes in the speech anymore. And validating a speech is a silly reason to bomb a country.
13) From a realist point of view this one's all you've got. Of course it's even easier to get gratitude out of a dictator than a messy democracy, if that's what you're after.
Thirteen Rebuttals
(#292633)1) I think the difference between "popular uprising" and "ethnic cleansing" is pretty clear. Why don't you?
2) I think the difference between "dictator" and "democracy" is also fairly easy to discern. That's two arguments in a row where you muddy the waters in order to score a point in your favor, but most people would say the waters couldn't be clearer in either case. We do as a country have to make distinctions between governments we consider legitimate, and governments we consider repressive and tyrannical. Libya was the latter.
3) Yes, foreign mercenaries are a clear sign that a country's sovereign lacks a popular mandate.
4) Alrighty.
5) What's the point of being part of an alliance if you aren't going to aid your allies? The US is obligated by treaty to take part in any NATO military action.
6) & 7) & 8) "Low hanging fruit" is exactly the point. The lower the cost of doing something morally obligatory, the more obligatory it becomes. See next point.
9) Are the civilians who were being shelled by artillery the same as the rebel units who were abusing Qaddafi loyalists? The same exact people? We're making a moral argument here, and your move is to elide the difference between two different groups of people? If the intervention was justified solely to prevent what we might call The Rape of Benghazi, then that has absolutely nothing to do with what other armed groups were doing in separate parts of the country. "Screw you kid, I ain't saving you. A guy who lives in the next town over shot some collaborators."
10) & 11) The rest of the Arab world is smart enough to see that we're not going to bomb Riyadh, and that if we did it would result in a true global jihad type thing, and that therefore change in KSA is going to have to come through different channels. You are still insisting that there's no difference between Libya and Saudi Arabia... but in fact the differences are extremely obvious to most people. I don't know anything about Bahrain, so can't comment.
12) "Validating a speech is a silly reason to bomb a country" is a silly, glib way to invert what I said. Obama said he was committed to encouraging democratic change in the Muslim world. Committed. That means, once democratic change comes along, he has committed to do something about it. Words mean things, even in foreign policy.
13) "...if that's what you're after." It's not.
M Aurelius was probably right.
Can't make it to thirteen
(#292665)without dinner so I'll focus on the worst of it...
"I think the difference between "popular uprising" and "ethnic cleansing" is pretty clear. Why don't you?"
Let's see....Qaddafi hired mercenaries, many of whom were black. Therefore anyone black is a mercenary and deserves killing, detention, or being run out of the country by rebel groups on the basis of race alone. Personally I think the rebels were a mixed group with mixed motives, but if you insist on being "pretty clear" I'd have to go with the ethnic cleansing.
"Are the civilians who were being shelled by artillery the same as the rebel units who were abusing Qaddafi loyalists? The same exact people? We're making a moral argument here, and your move is to elide the difference between two different groups of people?"
I don't get this one. We supported some groups and bombed others. It appeared to me that the sole criteria was whether the group was pro- or anti- Kadhafi. Do you have any evidence that it was based on who was attacking civilians? A single example of us bombing an anti-Qadafy group because they were attacking civilians, or refraining from bombing a pro-Khadafi group because they were not?
"We do as a country have to make distinctions between governments we consider legitimate, and governments we consider repressive and tyrannical. Libya was the latter."
and then
"The rest of the Arab world is smart enough to see that we're not going to bomb Riyadh, and that if we did..."
The rest of the Arab world is smart enough to see that bombing Riyadh and actively supporting Riyadh were not the only two options. We could treat them about the same as we treat...oh, say Armenia. Periodically Armenians and Azeris decide to have it out and we pretty much stay out of it.
We can make distinctions and judgments about governments, but we don't need to act on every judgment with lavish military support or bombing for regime change. In the vast majority of cases the correct response is to do nothing more than the usual diplomatic frowning and/or smiling.
Again, isolated examples of abuses do not equal "ethnic
(#292676)cleansing." The town near Misrata seems to have been targeted racially, but they also participated in elections and have a representative in the national congress.
You are conflating people who did nothing wrong with other people who did, in order to justify helping none of them.
Lavish? It was minimalist.
And that's what we usually do. This case was different and exceptional, despite all the confusion & false equivalence you're heaping on what happened. It seems like you won't be happy unless we either never intervene, or else we always intervene. That's a lot of excluded middle.
M Aurelius was probably right.
The lavish refered to certain other ME states
(#292680)we support, not the Libyan rebels.
Jordan, per #5
(#292666)I think we had enough ass to make it *not* a NATO action if we desired.
In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome.
Now we're getting somewhere
(#292642)So we have 13 reasons. You didn't tell me that before. Now that I know, you're at least internally consistent and for that I salute you (because there are no other countries that I know of that have the same 13 reasons to invade them). Of course, I don't agree with you. I'm a proud isolationist, non-interventionist, whatever you want to call me. The massive military installations around the world and the near-permanent occupations are both bugs, not features. Our job is to police the borders of the United States and help our NATO allies (I'm for leaving NATO, btw) when they ask for help. Oddly enough, Turkey might be drawn into the Syrian uprising. In accordance with our commitments, I'd support deploying troops there to help out.
I don't have much more to say on the subject other than how nice it is to agree with eeyn so much lately. I had no idea we were such kindred spirits.
The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas
You're both dorks
(#292647)Eeyn's an engineering dork and you're some sort of programming dork.
Any day you're both posting, the Dork-O-Meter readings for the site are out of control.
Really Made Me Laugh....nt
(#292650)Traveller
I was going
(#292667)to send you this really cool circular Smith chart transmission line nomograph with a rotating celluloid overlay for Christmas, but now I'm upset and you're not getting anything except maybe last year's pocket liner.
You just broke the Dork-O-Meter
(#292699)That's hilarious.
Makes a nifty birth control device. -nt-
(#292708).
M Aurelius was probably right.
Catchy, are you new here?
(#292668)No names, numbers will do. Do you know any non-dorks here? There's a list of manly man things I could be doing right now. Instead, I'm typing at you.
In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome.
Brother Darth Has A Point
(#292673)Even the sports talk that goes on here has a fair dose of dorkiness.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Hmmm ...
(#292698)and who's principally responsible for that, MScott?
It's 'cause he just got back
(#292683)from a week in a cabin. Whether he was hiking, or hiking in the Appalachians, either way there was probably lots of ruggedness involved.
So X always equals 0
(#292654)why didn't you say so in the first place?
I blame it all on the Internet
In Libya's case it was
(#292655)Libya didn't attack us or a NATO ally. Therefore, nothing to be done militarily.
But by all means, lets ship the rebels weapons and throw down as many sanctions as possible on the people who are doing the murdering.
The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas
You claimed more than that with the "isolationist" tag nt
(#292660).
I blame it all on the Internet
I'm glad you accept the logic, at least, even if
(#292682)you don't like or agree with it. I doubt I'll turn you into an interventionist any time soon, but hell, it's not like any of us are going anywhere, right catchy?
M Aurelius was probably right.
Vote for Romney
(#292482)he'll do both, and any other position you can think up.
I blame it all on the Internet
AQ has a parliament?
(#292463)Who knew?
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
Al Qaeda Arithmetic
(#292490)Prior to bombing Libya:
1. Libya controlled by non-AQ dictator
2. Mali controlled by non-AQ democratic govt
Total: 0 AQ controlled govts
After bombing Libya:
1. Libya "controlled" by non-AQ democracy-in-progress
2. Vast swaths of Mali controlled by AQ-allied rebel movement
Total: 1 AQ controlled govt
When did we bomb Mali?
(#292541)I must have missed the news that day.
"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias
When did we set up a parliament in Libya?
(#292542)Cherry picking anything good that happens to comes out of a random d!c&-swinging campaign, while denying responsibility for anything bad that happens, is just not serious analysis.
Random d!c&-swinging campaign?
(#292544)This is kind of irritating. Qaddaffi was rolling armored columns through civilian towns shooting anyone that didn't have curly hair, the rebels asked for help, and this was in the middle of the largest populist uprising the Middle East had seen since the postcolonial days. Random?
M Aurelius was probably right.
OK then
(#292559)We were helping suppress populist uprisings in various places (Saudi Arabia, Bahrain), ignoring or giving mere golf claps to others, and then singling out one for a bombing campaign. At the time in Libya curly hairs and non-curly hairs were slaughtering each other, let's not whitewash the rebel movement. I'll concede that if accurate civilian body counts are done it's possible Khadafi was the bigger killer, and of course he was a dictator and the other side hasn't turned full authoritarian yet.
It wasn't random, that was just snark. But selecting Libya had very little to do with saving the straight haired people, except in the PR campaigns. It had a lot more to do with which countries allow US naval and air bases, maintain a pro-Western, anti-Iran foreign policy, and had or hadn't pissed off Italy and the UK. All of which is to say Libya was a national interest war, not a humanitarian war, and if that is the case, the national interest costs of destabilizing Mali and other countries in the area has to be taken into account.
I'd say it was both.
(#292560)National interest and humanitarian, that is. I agree 100% that the follow-on costs in Mali and other neighboring countries created new problems, but AQIM is very much a problem that needs to be dealt with in its own right. Taking them on with the backing of fairly legitimate representative governments seems much more likely to succeed than doing so with the help of dictators however "stable."
M Aurelius was probably right.