Suicide In The Cathedral Open Thread.

mmghosh's picture

Truly bizarre.

However, in the evening of my life, facing immense dangers to my French and European homeland, I feel the duty to act as long as I still have strength. I believe it necessary to sacrifice myself to break the lethargy that plagues us. I give up what life remains to me in order to protest and to found. I chose a highly symbolic place, the Cathedral of Notre Dame de Paris, which I respect and admire: she was built by the genius of my ancestors on the site of cults still more ancient, recalling our immemorial origins.


The dominant discourse cannot leave behind its toxic ambiguities, and Europeans must bear the consequences. Lacking an identitarian religion to moor us, we share a common memory going back to Homer, a repository of all the values ​​on which our future rebirth will be founded once we break with the metaphysics of the unlimited, the baleful source of all modern excesses.

Islamic belief may be based on collective suspension of rationality, as most religions are.  But this gesture, and the enormous reactionary protests in Paris are a sign that there is something seriously wrong in Europe.  Pro-reactionary protest, at a time of increasing working class exploitation?  In France?

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Have Arrived In SoCal

M Scott Eiland's picture

Off to a business meeting tomorrow then to catch Alicia Witt at the Viper Room tomorrow night, then vacation until the 10th. Will still poke my head in now and again.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.



Because the exploitation is happening in Asia, or to imported cheap migrant labor.


In Europe the working class isn't being exploited. It's being left out. Hence, it's no longer a working class, it's an excluded class, a slighted class.


If it's not a working class, you can't expect it to have a working class ethos, which is a rational demand for a larger share of the pie (or in more extreme variants for control of the pie).


A slighted, excluded class contributes nothing to the pie. So naturally their fallback position has to be that they have rights earned through birth, meaning nationalism, xenophobia, etc. It fits perfectly. I see no contradiction.

This was clear enough to Larkin, whose patriotism rested on the notion that England was the worst place on earth with the possible exception of everywhere else.

Brands - an expression of counterculture?

mmghosh's picture

Just silly.

Seth Siegel, the co-founder of Beanstalk, a brand management firm, says that branding “decommoditizes a commodity.” It coats meaning around a product. It demands a quality of experience with the consumer that has to be reinforced at every touch point, at the store entrance, in the rest rooms, on the shopping bags. The process of branding itself is essentially about the expression and manipulation of daydreams. It owes as much to romanticism as to business school.

In this way, successful branding can be radically unexpected. The most anti-establishment renegades can be the best anticipators of market trends. The people who do this tend to embrace commerce even while they have a moral problem with it — former hippies in the Bay Area, luxury artistes in Italy and France or communitarian semi-socialists in Scandinavia. These people sell things while imbuing them with more attractive spiritual associations.

First, as MA pointed out in a previous discussion, there are quite a few well known Chinese brands.  Secondly, the Chinese may just have a different attitude to marketing that doesn't have to do with a faux "romanticism".

Typical MBA techno-jingoism.


On the other hand, there's something to the idea of "branding" as a political force - for better or for worse. National Socialism, Italian Fascism, Maoism, Stalinism, Guevarism, al Qaeda, etc. are among the more successful political brands of all time. Branding is no more & no less than associating a design package (color palette, simple iconography, typography, sloganeering, etc.) with a particular set of intense experiences. Losing WWI, for example, or centuries of colonial subjugation of southern countries by northern countries. 

"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

I thought this might be of interest to you



A little story about the ffect of the new more muscular US policy towards finance. Personally I don't think this has anything to do with garnering tax receipts but a lot to do with legislative war on foreign financial centers. It's a pity (for your country) that your governemnt doesn't go to war in a similar way for your manufacturng industries that provide jobs to the masses. 


It's almost as if... no, wait, that couldn't be it.

Baghdad Bob's Illegitimate Spawn Is Alive And Well In DC

M Scott Eiland's picture

To say that Brad Woodhouse is a f***ing moronic tool is to be grossly defamatory to morons, tools, and all combinations of such. I'm sure the MSM *really* appreciates the tacit "but you're supposed to be on *our* side!" message of the tweet in question.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Woodhouse ain't got nothin' on Baghdad Bob

brutusettu's picture

But in the spirit of WelovetheIraqiInformationMinister, here is Woodhouse's take on former sex slaves not meeting with a Japanese mayor that looks back kindly on the use of *comfort women*, the women thought the meeting wouldn't lead to anything productive.



"Former Comfort Women refused to meet with JP mayor that thought systematic rape was ok, they kinda forfeited their right to gripe"

This is what a beleaguered Attorney General looks like

Bird Dog's picture

When you go on an off-the-record charm offensive and the NYT, HuffPo and AP refuse to show up. Perhaps Holder should follow the example of a certain Harvard dean, who resigned after it was exposed that she raided faculty emails. Machen and Cole, too.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

Bye bye Bachmann

Bird Dog's picture

I won't miss her. When you say things that are true or mostly true only 15% of the time (link), then maybe you should find another line of work. She and her defenders have been ongoing embarrassment for the GOP.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

So much for the "rogue agent" excuse

Bird Dog's picture

From NBC News:

Jay Sekulow, an attorney representing 27 conservative political advocacy organizations that applied to the Internal Revenue Service for tax-exempt status, provided some of the letters to NBC News.  He said the groups’ contacts with the IRS prove that the practices went beyond a few “front line” employees in the Cincinnati office, as the IRS has maintained.

“We've dealt with 15 agents, including tax law specialists -- that's lawyers -- from four different offices, including (the) Treasury (Department) in Washington, D.C.,” Sekulow said. “So the idea that this is a couple of rogue agents in Cincinnati is not correct.”
Among the letters were several that bore return IRS addresses other than Cincinnati, including "Department of the Treasury / Internal Revenue Service / Washington, D.C.," and the signatures of IRS officials higher up the chain. Two letters with "Department of the Treasury / Internal Revenue Service / Washington, D.C." letterhead were signed by "Tax Law Specialist(s)" from Exempt Organizations Technical Group 1 and Technical Group 2. Lerner’s signature, which appeared to be a stamp rather than an actual signature, appeared on a letter requesting additional information from the Ohio Liberty Council Corp.


Sekulow also said the practices continued well after May 2012, when the IRS has claimed they had stopped. Sekulow said 10 of the organizations he represents still have not received determinations from the IRS on their applications for tax-exempt status as 501 C (1)(4) organizations. He provided NBC News with a letter the IRS sent to one of his clients on May 6 requesting more information.
Cleta Mitchell, another attorney representing conservative groups that allege they were targeted, said an IRS agent in Cincinnati told her a “task force” IRS office in Washington, D.C., was making the decisions about the processing of applications, and that she subsequently dealt with IRS representatives there.  
“(The IRS agent in Cincinnati) told me that in fact the case would be transferred to a special task force out of Washington, and that he was told – he was the originally assigned agent – that he wasn't allowed to make decisions, the decisions were all going to be made in Washington,” Mitchell said. “I know that this process was going on in Washington because I've dealt with those people.”

How fascist.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009



It used to be that targeting conservative groups for special scrutiny was the sin.


Now it's applying any scrutiny to conservative groups at all.


This is how the media (and the right) loses its mind.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Since the targeting has already been well-established,

Bird Dog's picture

the next question is how high up the targeting has gone. It has also been well-established that the targeting has gone beyond some overzealous agents in Ohio. But I appreciate the various forms of downtalking here. It's entertaining.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

What does this piece prove, BD?


Targeting or scrutiny?

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

This wasn't a low-level operation by low-level agents

Bird Dog's picture

Particularly since the targeting was known by Chief Counsel and other officials in DC. Of course they're going to scrutinize once the target has been targeted.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

That's their job


This article makes them doing their job a scandal. It ain't.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Whoever Used the Phrase, "Targeted," Caused and is Causing


...this issue to be way misperceived.


Words matter and Targeted is the wrong word.


when you you have a thousand applications for tax exempt status...granted providing you don't primarily engage in politics...then a political name in the title simply is a matter of sorting. This is what bureaucracies are supposed to do.


The real scandal is that all of these applications were approved and many openly engaged in political activity...this was and is a crime.


A good offense is the best defense and these groups have immunized themselves from proper scrutiny now.


Goes for Democratic groups too...though those damn libs are in fact more likely to be running soup kitchens and other outreach programs for the poor...matters republicans think aren't worth dirtying their hands over.


Libs are bleeding hearts...Repubthugs drink up the blood we suffer and




The Bureaucratic Culture That Destroyed Joe Louis. . .

M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .is alive and well, and unapologetically so.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.



being subject to IRS audit is kafkaesque, a maddening experience. and how indiviudals are targeted while corporations and other organizations seems to skate thru is a problem, not sure how that would be addressed. its juts the nature of bureaucracy to pick on the little guy.


and yet some enforcment of the tax code must exist... its thorny.....

“The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” -George Bernard Shaw

Here's a suggestion for enforcement...

Jay C's picture

Simply have the IRS promulgate an administrative rule that any organization in the US with the words "Taxes", "Tea Party", "Citizens", "Patriot", "Family" or "Second Amendment" in its name must never be subject to any scrutiny over their tax status or political fundraising whatsoever. And empower a special panel of the House (Republicans only) to periodically (every two weeks) review for indictment as a felony.


That MAY stop the "scandals" - 'til the next shiny object pops up somewhere....

I Always Thought That Was Plain Racism


But then, what would I know.


In this case, I don't know what drove the IRS. But I have noted that some people have used the Tea Party to make money, and a lot of it. Glenn Beck comes to mind. I could easily see an IRS official having second thoughts about tax-exempting some of those organizations.

This was clear enough to Larkin, whose patriotism rested on the notion that England was the worst place on earth with the possible exception of everywhere else.

"how fascist."


haha, yup, it's a small step from low level (if inappropriate) bureaucratic harassment that results in no single case of actual denial of tax exempt status to fascism, with its attendant paramilitary organisations, massacres, death camps, etc etc.


i'd say that last remark was a classic case of trolling as defined here:


deliberately arguing with complete fallacies on forums, comment threads, or message boards to get leets and other users pissed off by the troll's "ignorance".


“The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” -George Bernard Shaw

Except it wasn't low-level,

Bird Dog's picture

which was the point of the link. But nice preemptive response and attempt turn around the trolling on to someone else.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

low level


on the harasmment scale of "may we see your receipts please" to "please stand here while we drone strike you" is what i meant.


I have no doubt that the extra scrutiny which resulted in no denial was directed at the highest levels of teh executive, up to and including barry himself.

“The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” -George Bernard Shaw

Trolling? Heck, no. It's the Half-Godwin!



"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

History books of 2014 Texas

brutusettu's picture

"Al Gore says he invented the internet."



History books found across the US

"Ponce de Leon was searching for the fountain of youth."



The former is a lie fabricated by detractors, the latter looks like it was satire that changed into Scottie Pippen winning the Super Bowl with a little help from his friends.




In Historia general y natural de las Indias, Oviedo’s account of the Spanish settling of the Americas, he relates a tale in which Ponce, deceived by Indians, goes tromping off on a futile hunt for the Fountain of Youth. It’s all a literary device intended to make Ponce appear foolish. Although visits to spas and mineral baths were common in the 16th century, actually believing water could reverse aging was apparently considered pretty silly.


Dammit, everything I learned in school was a lie. -nt-



"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

I don't know.


After tromping around Florida in the same filthy, half-rotten wool and linen garments you've been wearing for the last six months, a natural spring of cold fresh water has gotta feel pretty rejuvenating.


I've been here and it's really pretty awesome. Cold water so clear you can see every turtle and fish under your canoe:



White Water Fail and Fail and Fail...

(#304654) gets better and better as it goes on and on and on...


I hope this non-youtube embed need some fun this morning.




Funny, then appalling.


Problem employee at AQIM:

After years of trying to discipline him, the leaders of al-Qaida’s North African branch sent one final letter to their most difficult employee. In page after scathing page, they described how he didn’t answer his phone when they called, failed to turn in his expense reports, ignored meetings...

but then

He quit and formed his own competing group. And within months, he carried out two lethal operations that killed 101 people in all: one of the largest hostage-takings in history at a BP-operated gas plant in Algeria in January, and simultaneous bombings at a military base and a French uranium mine in Niger just last week.

Kinda like Jenny McCarthy's Body Count

brutusettu's picture

(insert puns that write themselves)

I feel like I've come across dozens of Steve Sailers


over the years. The bookish, sensitive crypto-racist. How refreshing to see he's dropped some of the crypto.

"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

Something that I've noticed is that just since 2008


Sailer and Murray seem to have gone viral among certain types even as in the mainstream such attitudes become increasingly unacceptable.


Prior to about 2008, people explaining how Science would prove that non-whites--except for Jews and orientals, who are cunning masterminds--are stupid were people I'd only encountered over the internet. And then, starting a few years ago, people I've known and met in real life will, over the course of a conversation, say something like, "So, have you heard of Charles Murray...?" and then begin to explain how science is showing that black people are stupid by virtue of their DNA.




Sorry for that. Really. -nt



Just a small request


Turns out when McCain met with the Syrian rebels they had a new request:  they want the US to bomb Lebanon.

“What we want from the U.S. government is to take the decision to support the Syrian revolution with weapons and ammunition, anti-tank missiles and anti-aircraft weapons,” Idris said. “Of course we want a no-fly zone and we ask for strategic strikes against Hezbollah both inside Lebanon and inside Syria."

Of course.

Bomb Lebanon?!? Russia Has Up'ed the Ante by Infinity...


There is not going to be any "No Fly Zone," as there was in Libya...Syria is going to be a very long, hard slog and the Free Syrian Army has just probably lost.


Russia says it will go ahead with deliveries of S-300 anti-aircraft missiles to Syria, and that the arms will help deter foreign intervention.






Indeed, some analysts see confirmation of the arms sale as a "game changer" for the Syrian crisis.
Continue reading the main story    

"It virtually ensures that the US-Russian talks will be meaningless, sends warning signals about similar arms transfer to Iran, can drag Israel into the Syrian fighting, and would sharply alter US and allied 'no fly' capabilities," said Anthony Cordesman of the Centre for Strategic and International Studies.

There had been reports that Moscow was holding back on delivering the arms, in exchange for an Israeli commitment not to carry out further air raids over Syria, our correspondent says.

Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Yaalon said the Russian missile systems had not yet left Russia.

"I hope they will not leave, and if, God forbid, they reach Syria, we will know what to do," he said.


God forbid, I hope Israel doesn't widen this war!

Best Wishes, Traveller

So the US, EU and Israel support the Salafis

mmghosh's picture

while the Russians and Chinese support the Alawi-Shia combination.  Where is Turkey in this?


Hmm.  Hard to see how this will work out to the benefit of the Israelis, although presumably Mossad knows what it is doing. 

Nobody Does


I am skeptical that anybody can predict how this will turn out over any significant time horizon.

This was clear enough to Larkin, whose patriotism rested on the notion that England was the worst place on earth with the possible exception of everywhere else.

Austerity's green shoots


America's labor market is lousy, but at least incompetent Northern European bankers aren't running things:


Everything's not fine


Two top aides departed from the office of Toronto Mayor Rob Ford on Monday ...The departures come after the Globe and Mail reported ... a possible connection between a video allegedly showing the mayor smoking crack and a recent homicide in the city.


“Everything’s fine. I have no idea what the police are investigating,” Ford said in response to that report.

Have you seen his criminal record?


This story lists a few things up through 2010 - DUI, marijuana, assault (hockey riot),  domestic assault,  making death threats.  I read someplace else there's been more since 2010.


The best part is his sister being with the Canadian KKK.  

I'm going


as soon as they get an escalator in.

And a Slide for the Trip Back Down -nt



Elevator, with windows and a cafe selling hot cocoa & donuts.



"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

Youth Unemployment in the US


The Taliban are getting ready to take over Afghanistan.

mmghosh's picture

This is Depressing! Is the going to End Just Like Viet Nam?


....I'm glad about the Polio and all, but the Taliban seem to be establishing a framework for a functioning government...Damn!


Well, sort of damn, some sort of government is better than none.


Still, at some bad level inside myself, I will hate having lost to them.



I Understand This Is Touchy for You


but Vietnam hasn't turned out completely terribly for the Vietnamese, nor for the United States.

Re Vietnam...I Am Thrilled Maters Are Proceeding Well...



...but I am, not so much touchy, but rather left wondering..."What was that all about?!?" meaning the entire Vietnam War, for me, for the permanently wounded, for the dead, both Vietnamese and the US.


As I wrote not to long ago, "The internal jarring dislocation of reviewing a Contract for a lovely young white female singer to perform in a 4 Star Hotel in Ho Chi Minh City was startling."


I am not down on this...but it certainly is kind of, What the Hell?!


I mean this is good...and an implicit in my Afghanistan comment is that...maybe in 40 years I can travel and party in Kabul too.


So what have we been doing this past decade if in fact this will be the end result? Maybe this end result is only achievable though a tough slog through hell?


It is somewhat curious, that's all.


Best Wishes, Traveller



What was that all about?!?


That's my takeaway, too -- What was that all about? Doing nothing may well have allowed the United States and Vietnam to reach the current state, sooner. What conflicts or crises in which the country is currently engaged might also be solved by patience? 


I recall when the USS Vandegrift visited Ho Chi Minh City in 2003 -- the first such visit by an American warship in 30 years -- and feeling something akin to the shock you felt with the singer. I had spent some time as shipyard worker previously and had actually worked on the Vandegrift during one of the ship's refittings. It was strangely uplifting to see that name in that context. Of course, I don't have your experience of the war and so my feeling of shock and recognition (and "de-recognition"?) doesn't compare.


"Touchy" was the wrong word. "Intense" would have been better.

Very Interesting Story, Model, I can understand your Pride...



...building things are real.


I still drive through Cal Tech where I restored several classic houses while I paid my way through school as a painter, (semi-plumber, electrician, ect). They are still there, looking lovely as I left


Often I miss real work and being able to see what I accomplished.


Good on you and the Vandegrift.


Best Wishes,. Traveller


Afghanistan won't end up like Vietnam as long as there

mmghosh's picture

are drones and ships - which is why drone tech is being perfected even as we speak.  Bing West thusly

However, our bedrock goal — preventing the reemergence of an al-Qaeda sanctuary — appears achievable in the worst of circumstances, even if our presence on the ground is negligible. Our CIA has done an excellent job in setting up an extensive network of informers who detest the Taliban and AQ. Our overhead imagery and bombing platforms improve every year. There is no area out of reach to our Special Operations Forces — and larger forces, if need be. In 2001, an entire Marine brigade flew into southern Afghanistan from ships in the Persian Gulf. AQ cannot establish a significant sanctuary in Afghanistan without our knowledge; we have the military tools — bombing, commandos, even a brigade raid — to keep AQ bottled up in the mountains of Pakistan.

In sum, events in 2013 are preliminary. Time blurs into a long series of unknowables. The one knowable is that Afghan forces require modest dollars over the long term. We will not abandon Afghanistan; nor should we emphasize it.

How much are "modest dollars?"  Its quite obvious that the Taliban will be back within a short time after the US leave, and it is obviously not possible to bomb them out of Kabul, so some deal will be engineered, probably with players such as Saudia and Russia.

Fan Fiction Notice for Scott...



Seems like an opportunity.


Best Wishes, Traveller

Not Familiar With Any Of Those Series. . .

M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .and I've been in a creative downcycle for the past few years. Still, it's an interesting development--I'll keep an eye on it.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

McCain now a FP freelancer?

Jay C's picture

I'm not so sure oil is behind his motivation so much as:


1. The easy free publicity, so he can go back to Washington and posture some more like the Great Tough Foreign-Policy Honcho he imagines himself to be.


2. A chance for a poke in the eye to the Obama Admin over their Syria (non-) policy. With of course, plenty of posturing ops.


3. See # 1


4. Also: as Traveller notes: there's a war on that McCain can get excited over - Islamists or not.

Maybe Indirectly



The bigger motivation would be denying Iran an ally (Hezbollah would be out of commission, too).

And anyway, the United States does not have too many qualms about working with Islamists as such, and will happily do so depending on the wider FP context.

Meeting with Islamists on Memorial Day


in order to expand US military involvement in the ME.


I guess war profiteering isn't exactly known for its decency.   



I don't think it's war profiteering. If it were he could probably be bought off or distracted by some arms deal.


No, he really believes that more wars in the ME are a good thing.  As a bonus, getting involved with Syria could lead to open conflict with Iran,  and I think he really really believes in that.

Distracted by some arms deal


when there's an opportunity to massively increase US military engagement with the Syria-Hezbollah-Iran alliance? I don't think we need to veer much off the war profiteering model to explain McCain's actions.


However, I'd guess you're right -- McCain probably sees aligning with Syrian rebels as an opportunity to weaken the Syria-Hezbollah-Iran alliance, which he regards as America's enemy.


His sincerity doesn't seem very germane to me, b/c the main point is that he's in the leadership position he's in largely b/c he's doggedly representing the interests of the defense sector. These aren't the average tax payer's concerns he's advocating for over in Syria.

Or, the Truth is that McCain Never Met a War He Didn't Like

(#304552) gets the blood moving.


The saddest comment I saw was, "The world would be a better place if McCain had died in his cage."


Well....war criminal and all as he is...who knows?



Quite Likely


And he's also a grandstanding narcissist. I was going with the most charitable interpretation I could think of.

Very Curious to Me Also...nt



No need to watch the hands apparently,


just wait for the other side of the mouth to speak:


I hadn't paid much attention to the details of his atheists not going to hell comment and I certainly haven't been falling in love with this pope like some on this site have. I suspected it was just a bit of Jesuit legalese dressed up as compassion and modern thought.


I'm too old to find that stuff either clever or interesting. 


All things to all men seems to be the current goal in the popes PR dept right now. Cuddly, lovely, exorcist daddy pope. Simple man of the people who loves the poor and blah blah blah.

This is your First and Final Warning.


Naughty Naughty

Nyoos, you're going to call me out with this BS?


"Cuddly, lovely, exorcist daddy pope. Simple man of the people who loves the poor......"

Put up or shut up.  Show me once where I claimed to be the Pope or the Pope claimed to be me.  Once where I claimed to be lovely, or had performed an exorcism.  Simple man?  PRV!!! and from a mod too.  Ok, I do love the poor, they are delicious but can get a little gamey of you let them get too old. 

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Cuddly, the Scarlet Popernel.


They seek him here they seek him there.


But you are right. I shall warn myself officially for the PRV.

Good to see mods holding themselves accountable:)



In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Redeemed is Not Saved


It'd be pretty poor recruiting and marketing, otherwise, I guess (why join if not to be saved?).

Another one. In Concho County, TX...


Reports indicate that the 23-year-old North Carolina resident whose name wasn’t released at the time of this report, opened fire from his pickup truck on random cars across McCulloch and Concho counties, near San Angelo in central Texas.

The man's name, race and religious affiliations are being withheld. Why? What's the media trying to hide?


"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes


Bird Dog's picture

He and others weren't rioting and torching cars.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

So driving around and shooting people


has nothing to do with religion? You're hilarious when you're wrong.

"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

Perhaps you should direct your ire at dKos...

Bird Dog's picture

...for the veritable news blackout on the incident.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

What does that have to do with the shooter's religion?


Now it turns out the shooter was a Marine. Esteban J. Smith, 23 was stationed at Camp Lejeune, and is being linked to another possible homicide at a motel near the camp. 


But here's the thing, there's still no word about PFC. or Sgt. or Lance Corporal Smith's religious beliefs. Why, Bird Dog? What are they hiding from us??

"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes


Bird Dog's picture

Because there is no difference between a murder by a hispanic Marine less than 24 hours ago and multiple days of riots by immigrant car-torching Muslims (most likely) in a land that is 95% not Muslim. None!

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

"car-torching Muslims"


How is that phrase anything but religious bigotry?

"most likely"

Bird Dog's picture

It's not bigotry if it's true.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

car torching, dark skinned youths


is also a true description.


Unless you have evidence that dark skin is causing these youths to torch cars, you should probably leave that one alone.


Same goes here for religious affiliation, unless you want to keep making bigoted remarks about "Muslim car torchers".

"Dark-skinned" would...

Bird Dog's picture

...fall under the category of "who". It is a descriptor of the make-up of the rioters because, along with "immigrant", it provides a general sense of their national origin. Not every descriptor has to contain this "motivation" that you seem to be requiring.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

big·ot·ry [big-uh-tree]


noun, plural big·ot·ries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

Not a word about whether the truth of said opinions makes a difference. The etymology is pretty interesting as well. It comes from Old English through Old French. 

1590s, "sanctimonious person, religious hypocrite," from French bigot (12c.), of unknown origin. Earliest French use of the word is as the name of a people apparently in southern Gaul, which led to the now-doubtful, on phonetic grounds, theory that the word comes from Visigothus. The typical use in Old French seems to have been as a derogatory nickname for Normans, the old theory (not universally accepted) being that it springs from their frequent use of the Germanic oath bi God. But OED dismisses in a three-exclamation-mark fury one fanciful version of the "by god" theory as "absurdly incongruous with facts." At the end, not much is left standing except Spanish bigote "mustache," which also has been proposed but not explained, and the chief virtue of which as a source seems to be there is no evidence for or against it. 


In support of the "by God" theory, as a surname Bigott, Bygott are attested in Normandy and in England from the 11c., and French name etymology sources (e.g. Dauzat) explain it as a derogatory name applied by the French to the Normans and representing "by god." The English were known as goddamns 200 years later in Joan of Arc's France, and during World War I Americans serving in France were said to be known as les sommobiches (see also son of a bitch). But the sense development in bigot is difficult to explain. According to Donkin, the modern use first appears in French 16c. This and the earliest English sense, "religious hypocrite," especially a female one, might have been influenced by beguine and the words that cluster around it. Sense extended 1680s to other than religious opinions.


"Sanctimony" is also a useful word when discussing conservative anti-Muslim attitudes, by God.


"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

Checking and...

Bird Dog's picture

...nope, I didn't say anything that was bigoted, per the definition.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

Insistently linking the rioters


to a particular religion, and vice versa, attributing the religion to the riots, while ignoring both motives and religious beliefs of rioters from different religious backgrounds fits the definition to a tee. 


Also, assuming the spree-shooting Marine is hispanic didn't help.

"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

The Marine's first name was Esteban

Bird Dog's picture

I await more complete reporting on the "who" in Sweden.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

So? His last name was Smith. -nt-



"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

but I'm guessing "Hispanic" is right

Jay C's picture

Esteban Smith was, apparently from Bakersfield, CA (a lot of Latinos there), and his wife - his first victim, as now discovered - was named "Rubi Estefania Smith" - certainly a Hispanic-sounding name, so "Hispanic" is probably correct.


But looking at the latest details of his shooting spree, it looks like CPL Smith was just muy loco....

Esteban... Estefania. Stephen/Stephanie.


Lots of weirdness going on there. But about the hispanic thing, the surname is Anglo, so assuming anything at this point is prejudicial. Maybe his parents are a white couple from Bakersfield who fancy hispanic first names. Maybe he's mixed parentage, in which case you can't assume you know which culture he identified with, whether he identified with both, etc.

"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

Jordan, all I ask for is a picture of your face the instant


You learn that Smith is a black and/or Muslim. I have no idea if he is or isn't BTW, but if crow has to be eaten I just want to say I called it.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

The important thing, Darth, is that we get to the bottom


of why the media can't or won't talk about Mr. Smith's religion. And no, being a Marine and a pickup truck driver doesn't count.

"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

No, no, no, Jordan. The important thing is that


I get to say 'nya, nya, nya!'  These trivialities that you and BD are arguing come in a very distant second.

FWIW, the local paper here seriously debated, and for a short time, implemented a policy where they would not publish pictures or information concerning race when reporting arrests.  Nothing on the sly, no apparent agenda etc,  but a straight assessment by the paper that they were turning off black subscribers and advertising $.  So, having seen it once, granted at a local paper, my hair isn't exactly blown back by the idea that this may be done on a larger scale. 

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Cars Torched, Shops Looted, Nary a Mention of Creed



Bird Dog's picture

There is no difference whatsoever betweens riots after an immigrant was killed and riots after the Canucks choked. None!

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

Is the car somehow less burnt


or the shop window less broken after a sports riot?


You're right, there's a difference.  After a sports riot, we don't:


1. Hold all fans of the sport in question collectively responsible.

2. Decide that we have to rethink our ideas about allowing sports in Western culture

2. Have WND putting up feverish op-eds about the "myth of moderate sports fans",  and tossing up lies like "not one single Canucks fan has apologized"

3. Have mayors jumping up to demand that the Bill of Rights be downward-reinterpreted

Personally. . .

M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .I'd like to see rioting sports fans dealt with rather more severely--it might discourage recurrences. However, sports riots tend to be far more limited in duration (I can't think of any that lasted more than a single night) and location (usually rather close to the sporting venue involved). If sporting fans, say, started rioting and issuing death threats every time someone in the media insulted one of their favorite players, you might have more of a point.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.



and soccer violence gives us the model to understand this all - rioting is fun. 

Sports rioting seems to have an aspect of Carnivale


or the Feast of Fools, a sort of quasi-socially sanctioned moment in which you're allowed to essentially run wild for a night or two and then it's all back to normal.

That is an Odd Answer, But Does Have a Ring of Truth...nt



Colombia, Britain, Honduras, Ireland, ...


That's a lot of Christian violence.

Is it, catchy? *Is* it?


How could we possibly know that, with the PC media conspiring to keep us in the dark about whether these violent thugs are car-torching Muslims or not?

"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

Let Me Rephrase

M Scott Eiland's picture

Sports fans excluding soccer fans. Soccer fans are f***ing nuts and probably should be housed in an abandoned mineshaft with food and water tossed down to them in padded containers. I suspect that a sport designed to finish 1-0 (or 0-0) on a regular basis should probably be banned for public safety reasons.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

You're forgetting rugby...















Field Hockey...







Come to think it, and this might be the first and last time you'll ever hear me say this, but you probably shouldn't have brought up sports at all. The good news is lacrosse, ping pong and chess turned up no death threats on a cursory Google search. Sedate fans, or just lack of accurate reporting on Hong Kong organized crime's stranglehold on the world's greatest sport with tiny balls? 

"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

Hey, stop insulting


ping pong or I'll kill you.


Impressive list.

A humorous rephrase


which neglected to own up to being wrong.

One has to a be a brave man


to be a soccer referee in many parts of the world.

I'm pretty sure in


the case of Europe, given the frequency of sports riots, the total number of riots and the total amount of property damage is higher.   Hell, even in the Egypt some of the worst riots and embassy attacks started at soccer games.   But I'll grant you the clerics issuing death threats are a unique feature.


Of course in the Swedish case I haven't heard about any leader issuing death threats, or any leader period,  and no one claiming this had to do with insults to the prophets. 

Perfectly logical correlation-causation

Bird Dog's picture

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009



I am developing a corporate Web app right now. Pretty complicated, HTML 5, the works. Guess which browser doesn't play well with others? IE 10. And that's supposed to be the good one.


Fortunately, I can simply not support it, since it's 2013. But programmers back in 2006 would have had to go out on a murder rampage or something, and plead guilty with an explanation.

This was clear enough to Larkin, whose patriotism rested on the notion that England was the worst place on earth with the possible exception of everywhere else.

I switched to Chrome about 18 months ago

Bird Dog's picture

I'm sure there are better browsers (my complaint is that it crashes too easily when there are too many tabs open), but Chrome is way faster than IE.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

Firefox is More Memory Efficient


But Chrome is faster. Way faster if you are using HTML5 - Javascript and the canvas element, like multiple X faster.


They are very compatible and render nearly everything exactly the same. I use Firefox for most sites, Chrome where I want speed.

This was clear enough to Larkin, whose patriotism rested on the notion that England was the worst place on earth with the possible exception of everywhere else.

"Internet Exploder"

Jay C's picture

was what a tech of ours used to call it - and he was right. I haven't used IE for anything - except AOL, where I have no choice - for years; Firefox and even Opera are much better. And my only recent bouts with annoying (and expensive to fix) malware have been thru IE. And that with an anti-malware program installed.

Amren et al are...

Bird Dog's picture

...racist organizations. Who the f**k cares what they say. They're political whackjobs.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

Agree about AmRen, BD....

Jay C's picture

... and btw, Darth, the preferred term is "Rubenesque" ...


but am I missing something here? Your comment doesn't seem to link to anything on this thread?

Ha! Amren, I never heard of them.


So I tool around the site thinking 'Renaissance' like the faires, and maybe I'll find a new mead recipe.  I saw 'race' like very third word and I'm making this connection to Fantasy RPGs, not even reading the stuff.  After a while I'm like 'Hey, WTF are these folks on about.....ooooooohhhhh.'  Well, I'll give them this, at least it ain't a bunch of fat women in starched ruffled collars.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Thanks For Sharing

M Scott Eiland's picture

What would we do without the thoughts of a convicted child rapist and fugitive from justice on gender relations?

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.



and I'll get my advice on what constitutes romance from a different source.

Surprising that he


got away with it.   Why was he still out on bail - I thought that normally got revoked instantly on conviction, e.g. before leaving the courtroom.  

Polanski? I Found this Interesting, So I Looked...



Extradition refused by Switzerland, Polanski released from bail July 12, 2010...NYT story here:


But it is page 2, the back of the story that is interesting. Prosecutorial overreach again? It appears that unsealing the Gunson file would have, might have been decisive to the Swiss Decision.


This may strictly be a matter of law...LA Prosecutors refusal to let the Swiss see the actual file was apparently deadly. Unless one is arguing the Swiss did not have the right to make this decision under international law and standards, what is a Court to do when the Prosecution refuses to give it the evidence it requests?


The turning point in the case occurred in mid-March, when Mr. Polanski’s lawyers disclosed in an appeals brief that Roger Gunson, a now-retired lawyer who originally prosecuted the case, had given sealed testimony describing a plan by Judge Laurence J. Rittenband, the original judge, to limit Mr. Polanski’s sentence to a 90-day psychiatric evaluation, a portion of which Mr. Polanski had served during his 42 days in Chino State Prison.

Mr. Gunson, who gave the testimony in January, also described his own reservations about the handling of the case by Judge Rittenband, who is now deceased.

Courts here refused to open Mr. Gunson’s testimony, which was taken provisionally, because he was gravely ill, and was supposed to be used at Mr. Polanski’s eventual sentencing. But Mr. Polanski’s legal team described the testimony in court filings that were widely described by media outlets.

The Swiss authorities, without success, requested access to the Gunson account, arguing that it would have established whether the judge had assured Mr. Polanski that time he spent in a psychiatric unit would constitute the whole of his period of imprisonment.

“If this were the case, Roman Polanski would actually have already served his sentence, and therefore both the proceedings on which the U.S. extradition request is founded and the request itself would have no foundation,” the Swiss Justice Ministry said in a statement.


Best Wishes, Traveller


This was a hugely political case.


Polanski is a protegé of the French government and the Swiss found themselves caught between two giants when the US and French authorities decided to have it out in our jurisdiction.


Frankly, this was between you lot and making an issue of it in Switzerland was quite impolite.


In the end, any fig leaf would have sufficed to extricate ourselves from it. The field was always going to be tilted towards the French given that they are our neighbour (I'm not suggesting Polanski was released out of love of the French, more a desire not to annoy them) and the amount of political pressure the Swiss are under from the EU. 


That said, most Swiss 'on the street' I talked to about it would have liked to have seen him shipped off to answer the charges. Drugging and analy raping a13 year old is obviously a mminor indescretion to the French elite in Paris, but the Swiss do not feel that way.

Further, One Might Find this Face to Face Interview with The V..

(#304482) be of some substantial interest. One might not agree with the Victim's view of Judicial and Prosecutorial misconduct, even occurring again in 2009, but her voice should be heard also.


A pretty extraordinary interview with Samantha Geimer:


I hate to bring rational discourse to such an emotional issue, but Ms. Geimer feels more abused by Judges and Prosecutors than by Mr. Polanski.


Best Wishes, Traveller

More awful PC-obsessed reporting.


Some one has been charged with trying to blow up a school in Oregon and not one of the sources I've read will reveal what the guy's religion is, when that is obviously something that has to be in the headline and repeated in the first paragraph.  What are they hiding here?


brutusettu's picture

Very curious to know how police were tipped off.


The Sandy Hook & Aurora shootings reminded everyone that there are nearly always warnings and tell-tale signs when someone is about to go spree-is-in-the-air shooting (and even earlier signs that someone's drifting in that direction). Early intervention seems a lot better than waiting for bullets to fly.

"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

pro-reactionary protest

Jay C's picture

Pro-reactionary protest, at a time of increasing working class exploitation?  In France?

Not that unusual - or really all that unexpected: the French Right seems to have been feeling somewhat marginalized of late; and the anti-gay-marriage movement has tapped in to a general conflation of complaints: and since the trigger event, this time, is a cultural thing (rather than humdrum economic issues or simple prejudice as usual with the Right), it appears to have brought more folks out of the woodwork that might be expected. "Class" issues, for a change, seem not be to a major factor.

I must confess to being a little surprised - my view of France

mmghosh's picture

is, I suppose, coloured by my personal interaction with French liberals only.  


This M Venner appears to have been a supporter of Vichy France, OAS etc.  That lot was a seriously bizarre bunch.

Not that bizarre


The only thing I see that's a bit unusual is someone from the right using one of the left's traditional forms of protest.   Maybe Venner had been studying Mishima.

The Sacrifice Of A Great* Mind In Tribute To A Dead Way Of Life?

M Scott Eiland's picture

Yeah, the comparison is apt. What a stupid, useless waste. Even if one accepted his argument that the new order in Europe is an abomination that should be dealt with, his is not a a symbol that will summon the army that will deal with the problem.

*--using the term loosely in Venner's case, IMO: he was apparently admired by many but I admit to being far less impressed by his professional resume than Mishima's, though I suppose he deserves points for not expressing his distaste with the state of reality by trying to impose a military empire by force.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.



The symbol was poorly chosen;  the type of person most likely to agree with him on traditional French values is probably the least likely to view suicide as morally valid choice.

Can't say that I did


Mostly met engineering professors so we didn't seriously talk a lot of politics or social issues,  but from causal conversation I'd guess they were on the average what we'd call liberal moderates here in the US.   The topics of posters and flyers around campus there were not far off from what you'd see at the place I work here. 


Of course they are proud of French and regional culture; food, art, music, and much more knowledgeable about their artists from 100 years ago than Americans are,  but I didn't see that translate into being anti-immigrant or anti-gay marriage.