Monday Fragmented Public Sphere Open Thread
Jurgen Habermas' twitter feed. (!!?!)
But the rise of millions of fragmented discussions across the world tend instead to lead to fragmentation of audiences into isolated publics.
and
Sorry for not following anyone. I'm still trying to lear how to use this tool. JH
You know what would be a fun project? Translating all of Schopenhauer's (or Walter Benjamin's or whomever else's) aphorisms to twitter.
Oh hey! Somebody's already gone ahead and done it!
But none of that is as much fun as stuff justin's dad says.
[UPDATE] Dang. It's a hoax. Habermas doesn't really twitter, apparently. And now the link above appears to be dead.
--
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References
Missionaries charged with kidnapping in Haiti.
How screwed up do you have to be to just grab some kids in a country with thousands of newly-created orphans and try to spirit them away, without checking to see if their parents are alive or able? That's so insane. Christians, seriously.
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)Haiti has a phenomenon called "restavec" children: "Reste avec" means literally "to live with", that is to say a child who has to live with someone else who can support him. It was surprisingly common in Europe and even in the USA. Abraham Lincoln was essentially slaved out by his father to neighbors.
The restavec is treated like a sub-child, usually fed less and tasked with all the menial chores, a Cinderella.
These Baptists screwed up where a long term missionary never would. They should have scrupulously adhered to the laws of Haiti, though in truth nobody was enforcing these laws. The government of Haiti is down to its cell phones, that's why we don't see much of them in action: all the ministries are destroyed, even the UN headquarters was leveled.
As I understand it, the children were to be taken to the Dominican Republic, where their parents could visit them. There was no attempt to steal the children: the bus was completely packed and children were left behind crying.
Well, damn the Christians if you must. We're good only for a laugh and a sneer. Your solution seems to involve these children going to refugee camps or becoming restavecs, little indentured servants.
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| parent )before you spring to their defense.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )before saying I'm defending anyone. I've said an experienced missionary would never have made that mistake. In a world where abortions go on legally and children are trafficked as sex workers, let us not have too much hand-wringing over children promised a better life by a collection of naifs from Idaho.
If I'm defending anything here, it's the proposition that evil is done with the best of intentions. The fact is, Haitians have been leaving their country illegally and turning up on our shores for quite some time. Maybe instead of damning "Christians" for their stupidity and evil, our critics might find it in their hearts to recognize the good intention. It doesn't attenuate the evil in the slightest, but earthquakes and enlightened people are no respecters of borders.
Haiti will never be the same. Something must be done: Port au Prince should not be rebuilt -- again. Earthquakes have knocked it down before, and if Haiti's chief seismologist is to be believed, will soon be knocked down again. If they have any sense, all the people of Port au Prince will all be on the move. The smartest thing we could do is to let them all out. Any time you can get someone out of refugee camp, get him out. Trying to patch this mess up by helping the poor of Port au Prince only concentrates the poor in the ruins, the last thing you want.
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| parent )Some of my best friends are Christians!
In this case, though, it's not clear that the woman running it had "the best of intentions". That's why I think it's too soon to excuse or condemn them because of their religion. It's the easiest thing in the world for a bunko artist to append "Christian" to their company name or their title.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )I'm just astonished at the idea of taking any children anywhere out of a country without having bulletproof paperwork.
It's just messed up, is all.
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| parent )missionaries who run everything by the book (as they should).
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| parent )But it appears that that Baptist group comes from a Baptist denomination that literally believes that some baldy through the power and consent of God, became like Beastmaster and commanded 2 she bears to slaughter 42 kids.
--Catholics have had some trial and error throughout their missionary work. And hardly one suffers from the affliction of taking their chosen translation and manuscript line of the OT literally.
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| parent )Full of contradictions, but that's part of what makes it interesting. The resurrection of Christ, arguably the most important episode in Christianity, and all the accounts differ. Feel free to point that out to the Bible Thumpers on my account.
Problem is, you see the Bible from the outside. I could just as easily say Melville's unreadable because the first chunk of Moby Dick is all about the ship's rigging. All this business about prophets sending the bears to eat the children, the Jews save a place at the table for Elijah, and I don't see Judaism coming in for the usual harangue. Every culture has such a story, reserved for bad kids who call old men baldies, haha.
People just will believe the damnest things without so much as a question or even astonishment. Secular myths are pretty silly, too. I especially like the overarching secular theme about how people are innately good. Innat just the most preciously stupid thing you ever heard? And yet people will just go on believing it.
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| parent )the people that hold ideas such as omnipotent = as strong as that is possible and omniscient = knows all that can be known, are likely considered not true Christians by groups like denominations of Fundamentalist Baptist. Those groups are not likely to be affected at all by reading Jesus riding into town on the backs of 2 donkeys only in one version. The bible is perfect in the KJV, reality must be stretched to fit the KJV to them. Other denominations too have subsets that don't see a problem with literal interpretations differing, it didn't matter in Genesis, it won't matter in later books.
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| parent ).....when Stevens and Ginsburg ditch out?
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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)or did I just hear Joe Biden tell newly installed Senator Brown that he has a 28-year old daughter who is "available"?
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)Brown joked about his daughters during some kind of campaign thing -- his victory speech? -- a while back. It's a gag.
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| parent ). . .so it was left to Ol' Joe to officially tender the Left's surrender as far as trying to make Brown's comment something that would hurt him politically goes. Man, veeps get crappy jobs to carry out. Obama will probably send him out to Vegas next to receive a symbolic beating from Mayor Goldman's, um, "family" friends in penance for the latest knife in Harry Reid's back.
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| parent )Brown's a caretaker Senator in MA who's about to alienate his base pretty impressively. I don't think we need to focus on anti-feminist trifles.
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| parent )From SatanNews:
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)- reply
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)Set me straight on why the iPad and iPhone don't support Flash. Flash is java-enabled, so if you allowed it you could pretty easily create apps for these machines that would circumvent the Apple Store, and Apple's cut of the profits (and control.) Kinda makes sense to me.
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)sorry, what?
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| parent )as a developer. Everyone works around his crappy restrictions: about half the apps which make it into iPhone began as J2ME (Java mobile edition), only put through cross-compilation to El Jobbo's Objective C.
What El Jobbo doesn't realize, or maybe he does, is all these ARM(x) processors he's putting in his devices support Java natively. Only the Restrict-o-matic keeps Java off his boxes, so he thinks. But as I said, there are thinkers and there are doers, and no competent developer needs to jailbreak his box to get their Java apps to run.
SteveJ needs to pull his bald head out and get with the plan here. Developers, not salesmen, make this stuff happen. Java isn't grandma's old Applet code anymore. At any rate, it was Jobs who said we'd be moving our data around online. It's amusingly ironic to see him try to stand in the way of progress, now.
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| parent )transformation tool. HipHop looks promising. I hate PHP. Ugliest language, ever, [? = $myStupidTypelessVariable ?] , and the most dangerous, though PHP can be written well. Aren't you glad I didn't put the angle braces in?
Now all that mess, (with the exception of the eval() statement, etc.) gets turned into C++, my language of choice.
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)I just hate weakly typed languages. For crying out loud, at least give me strings, floats, and ints. I hate Perl, too, but for different reasons. Mostly because I demand C-like syntax. My brain is too hard-wired for anything else.
That being said, I enjoyed Lisp/Scheme for awhile until I got tired of counting parentheses.
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| parent )who knows, maybe in version 8, although it sounds like it would take a pretty severe rewrite of some core modules.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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)Jenny McCarthy probably thinks this link doesn't matter
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)Between Air Moonbat crashing and burning, and the rather final repudiation of the vaccine/autism alleged link, it's been a rough year already for Bobby Jr.
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| parent )"Air Moonbat" must be some anti-euphemism for Teddy that's apparently dredging up the deaths of Joseph and JFK Jr too, but thanks.
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| parent )but yeah, it can be kind of difficult to habla wingnut.
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| parent )It's hard to keep up with all the cool new lingo they have, especially when that language isn't the best to juxtapose with a Kennedy.
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| parent ). . .and the other Kennedys who died in plane crashes did so many years before that, your interpretation was a strained one even in the absence of an explicit explanation, given the phrasing "it's been a rough year already."
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| parent )maybe if you could write a clear sentence people would understand what you were saying.
see also: wit, brevity, etc.
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| parent )Teddy, the butt of some you jokes, could have been said by some to have "flown" off a bridge.
Hence, I thought when you said:
"Between Air Moonbat crashing and burning, ... it's been a rough year already for..."
I thought you were referring, once again, to death of Jr's Uncle, Teddy, and tying in the history of other Kennedy's bad luck with planes, and Teddy's luck with booze and driving off bridges. Forgive me if you would never intend to take a jab at Teddy anytime a Kennedy is related to the topic.
"...it's been a rough year already for Bobby Jr."
Air America failed within the last month.
Teddy died within the 12 months/year.
I normally count within the last 12 months as within the year. Not the Gregorian calendar's version of what happened with the generic use of the term "year." It's not like it was written "it's been a rough 2010..."
I never listened to Air America and never heard before referred to as "Air Moonbat." So that station didn't enter my mind. Seeing the first part of your previous comment, as an aeronautical reference is oddly more up my ally. And seeing that quote as a swipe at Teddy, fits with previous comments in the past that I'm aware of.
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| parent )But I'll bet, given the track record of the Bushes, we'll get one anon. And great will be the rejoicing in the GOP when he is crowned.
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| parent ).
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| parent )I present Demon Sheep!
Hat-tip to our founder lo those many years ago, Josh Trevino.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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)Federal government looking for retarded lawyers.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )He has friends to the left now.
Also:
This is a major policy change for the White House, which has until now signaled its willingness to let HCR die rather than negotiate with the House in any way. I'd love to know what prompted the policy change. This is a big one.
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)and Obama actually leads on HCR in a positive direction, then maybe he'll have friends on the left.
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| parent )...in the Dem Party since being elected. I'm not kidding. That's a gigantic policy shift in itself.
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| parent )But I've heard many words from the guy. When I see action I'll support it.
'til then I'm a wounded, frightened, and distrustful puppy watching with one paw over my eye while whimpering in the corner.
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| parent )He was always going to screw us. And he was always going to have to stop, if he wanted to be President.
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| parent )but it deserves its own thread.
What is the basis for compromise with a political group whose stated main policy priority is to cause you harm?
This is my main difficulty with discussions of bipartisanship in the current context. The Dems have boxed in the Repubs by nominating a non-conservative black President. That concept raises such an atavistic fear in the Repub base, as exemplified by the fact that birtherism is a majority opinion in that group, that no compromise with Obama is possible for someone who wants to keep their seat. Separately, there are plenty of Repub politicians who are down with this concept in general. So -- where is the possibility of compromise? Remember, we live in a world where 40 Senate Repubs voted against PAYGO,* so even highly technical stuff can't get through.
*while the opposing Party was in power and would have to suck up the political fallout!
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)This time...it's Colin Powell .
Wonder if John McCain will listen to him, now....?
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)On Twitter
I love this guy!
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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)First me, then mod 62, then you.
See what you miss by ignoring me, BG? I've told you before it's not in your best interest.
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| parent )Cause the above is my second whack at it.
I think you scolded my for use of language the first time.
Or maybe you were scolding me for copying.
Anyhow. Justin should get smart and figure out how to make money off this before it's too late. Maybe his dad would get off his back.
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| parent )Now that is a man who knows what he wants.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )Is what happens to the High Life Man when he retires and his son moves back home.
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| parent )Interesting analysis of poll data of Republican opinion by Nate Silver.
R opinions on central issues don't vary significantly by sex, region, age, or race. Surprising:
Silver explains what this means for Republican political prospects:
My question is, what explains the lack of variance?
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)How could a tribal philosophy, which is based around hatred of the Other, have significant variance?
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| parent )My question is, what explains the lack of variance?
Like follows like?
I don't think this is much different than Bush the Lesser's observation that there exists a core conservative constituency ("Christian Conservatives" in the old lingo); he would do what his father didn't and make them his constituency -- and win.
I didn't follow your link, but the question I'd like to know is how many are there? Are there enough to win elections?
My guess is "no" unless disaffected D's and disgusted I's stay home.
So, I guess we can expect more of the same "drive up the other guy's negatives" from the GOP.
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| parent )But the "Fox, most trusted name in news" meme and half truth just gained a little steam, in the other direction, for the counter argument from people that actually looked at the numbers.
Conservatives are a lot more likely to think alike and trust sources that say what they like to hear.
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| parent )http://abcnews.go.com/2020/jenny-sanford-south-carolina-gov-mark-sanford-refused/story?id=9727121
If there was an adult arrangement between Mr. and Mrs. Sanford that's one thing. I've known couples who've had em, I've had em myself, and my experience is that such relationships seem to work out about as well as more traditional ones.
But in the absence of an agreement to allow discretions? Pretty unbelievable. A huge red flag at the least.
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)I'm willing to bet right now that:
1) Harry Reid either retires or is obliterated when he next faces the voters, and;
2) Obama loses Nevada in 2012, probably in a landslide.
Any takers?
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)but Reid should follow Dodd's lead.
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| parent )Get him out of the way so Durbin can whip the Senate into shape.
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| parent )At the very least, it takes the baggage associated specifically with him off the table. There surely seems to be very little incumbency bonus available in the case to counterbalance that.
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )on reddit this morning, and by the time I got to work, I found that another colleague had also seen it and distributed the link.
There were many man-hours invested in admiring this today...
Model-Making as Art
Enjoy
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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)reminds me of....
Dr. Emmett Brown: Let me show you my plan for sending you home. Please excuse the crudity of this model, I didn't have time to build it to scale or to paint it.
[reveals intricate tabletop model of the town square]
Marty McFly: [impressed] It's good.
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| parent )and just clicked on it.
I thought I was looking @ pictures from the 50's that had been colored.
Until I saw the dude and then re-read the title of the page.
Awesome.
--It is better to get what you want than it is to be right. -me
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| parent )"Muslim faith should bar me from serving in Congress".
The Constitution, Article VI:
" but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
We're rapidly heading toward a real debate over whether we should have laws or not in this country. It's well past time.
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| parent )The difference between folks who think we should be organized by legal and constitutional principles, and folks who think we should be organized by theological ones. You've hit the nail on the head.
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| parent )If all I knew about two candidates was that one was a devout Muslim and the other was a devout Christian, I'd probably vote for the Christian. If I had the choice of a devout Jew, I'd pick him or her over the Christian. There's a relative degree of crazy within Abrahamic religions, that's more empirical than theological.
Ellison is an exception to that, but then again I know more than that he's a devout Muslim-- mostly, that he's an apostate in all the ways I consider Islam to be antithetical to Western democracy.
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| parent )I'd vote third party. The folks who make a big show of their skydaddy religiousity have essentially the same vision for America and the world.
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| parent )The article here. A few years back, there were complaints about a few Christians who were proselytizing. Now the pendulum has swung the other way. There are about a half dozen Muslims and an equal number of Buddhists there. Not a bad thing.
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)Seriously? I know youre too intelligent to believe that. Fifteen cadets out of more than a thousand isn't a pendulum shift, and doesn't indicate in any way that Christian prostelitysing has decreased.
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| parent )And it's a good thing, too. There are 4,400± cadets, and considering the people who are appointed there, a few dozen Muslims, Buddhists and Druids is probably representative.
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| parent )DENVER -- The Air Force Academy has set aside an outdoor worship area for Pagans, Wiccans, Druids and other Earth-centered believers, school officials said Monday.
I suppose it has to be, but I don't even like churches on the Academy grounds...
But they all give comfort I suppose.
Still, the military goals are at variance with almost all Religions...and the Military takes priority in all things.
In my opinion.
Traveller
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| parent )Allowing multiple kinds of religious worship does not establish a religion, and it does not prohibit the free exercise thereof.
On practical grounds, it makes sense to have it this way. The campus is 18,000 acres large, so it's a ten-minute drive just to get to the main gates, and first-year cadets aren't allowed to drive.
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| parent )but I agree, there would seem to be serious inconsistencies between the goals and methods of the military and religions.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )how in the world can a single chaplain minister to multiple religions that don't have anything in common, even the idea of God? It's not as much of an issue in the Air Force, but in the Army or Marines? It seems pretty weird.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )and the beliefs that only members of their particular religions can end up there. I know Catholics believe that e.g. Gandhi cannot be in heaven because he was a heathen, so how can a chaplain preach the afterlife to Catholics and Hindus at the same time?
--Sincerity is the first casualty of capitalism. John Burdett
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| parent )and there are other folks who are capable of bringing what they view as comfort to even people they think are deluded.
It's religion. It doesn't make a lick of sense, by definition. How can an all-knowing, all-powerful being have gender? How does that work? Can God sport wood so big He can't wrap His hand around it?
Seriously, compared to faith as such, the idea of waiting your turn for the vending machine minister is nothing.
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| parent )unless you turn a chaplain into a therapist, which kind of removes religion from the equation. It doesn't make sense that a Catholic could counsel a Buddhist, or an Evangelical a Sikh.
BTW, Gandhi is in Limbo, where he gets to dance under a stick on a tropical beach for eternity. There are worse fates, I guess.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Most people don't really believe much of anything, so as long as the tribal words are murmured in their direction, they're happy.
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| parent )of any tribe? Because if so, I am a member, and nominate myself as head of its drinking club.
really, when are you going to drop this "everything is tribal" meme? It's getting mildly tiresome.
--Sincerity is the first casualty of capitalism. John Burdett
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| parent )but, um, everything is tribal. "Man is a creature who lives in a polis."
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| parent )Schmittian of you!
--Bene vixit, bene qui latuit
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| parent )but we can get all Godwin in here if we have to.
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| parent )Schmitt's as important a 20th century political thinker as anyone - surpassed only by Arendt, far as I'm concerned.
But saying 'man is a political animal' for Aristotle, where political association is predicated on shared conceptions of what is just, is a far cry from the claim that sheer in-group/out-group difference underlies political life - and that conception is, if not unique to Schmitt, then at least finds its sharpest articulation in his work.
--Bene vixit, bene qui latuit
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| parent )Aristotle said "Man is a creature that lives in a polis." That has fairly direct connotations for how identity is formed and how people might behave when they find themselves outside a polis.
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| parent )So the Greek reads: ὁ ἄνθρωπος φύσει πολιτικὸν ζῷον (that's Politics 1253a2, if you're keeping track at home). Your version is an OK-ish paraphrase - though 'creature' is an ugly anachronism if we're translating Aristotle, what with its overtones of a correspondent creator - but it's hardly a direct translation. πολιτικὸν ζῷον is 'political animal', no if's, and's or but's about it; it needs glossing, sure, (and 'who lives in a polis' ain't bad, as far as that goes) but that's why you should read more than one line of the book. Lastly, the φύσει - "by nature" - drops out of your version completely, which is pretty important.
Anyway, what got my attention here was your implicit claim that "everything is tribal" follows from, or is supported by, Aristotle's claim that we are, by nature, political animals. But that's not what Aristotle means by the claim at all, because in his view the tribe/clan/deme is an incomplete element of the polis - not an equivalent form of organization. Equating the two, it seems to me, rips out the core of Aristotle's rationale for the claim: he goes on to say in the same passage that humans are properly called political animals (as opposed to bees and such) because we possess speech, and speech "serves to reveal the advantageous and the harmful, and hence the just and the unjust." That revelatory function of speech gives political association a ground in reason (potentially, at least, and properly) - but this runs contrary to what I take you to mean by 'it's all tribal'.
--Bene vixit, bene qui latuit
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| parent )Yeah, I didn't mean what you thought I did, so I must have meant something that didn't make any sense.
My point is that a polis is a highly homogenous society which is deeply suspicious of its neighbors and anyone outside its ethnic group. That's what people are like, at heart. We can choose a different path, but it's nothing resembling the default. We will always be tribal. I am tribal. You are tribal. Introspection and self-comprehension is what allows us to appreciate the benefits of that while trying to contain the damage.
Though I do like "Man is a political animal who lives in a polis," better. Loses brevity, gains depth.
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| parent )I guess I failed to figure that you were using Aristotle's formula in a way contrary to (if not contradictory with) the way that he (and almost everyone else who quotes him) meant it, because you mean by 'polis' something at the very least orthogonal to, if not wholly distinct from, what's usually meant by the term - not by anyone other than Alan Moore and Victor David Hanson, anyway. Now that's esoteric writing - I saw inconsistency where I should've seen a behind-the-back triple bank shot. My bad; in my defense, your mis-correction of my alleged mis-translation threw me off the track.
Also, I'll just add that my initial diagnosis - that your conception of political life is, at its basis, Schmittian - looks pretty much on-target. And I think that's a mistaken conception; I think it gives too much weight to the in-group/out-group 'tribal' dynamic (which is, certainly, a part of the picture).
--Bene vixit, bene qui latuit
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| parent )because it's not "Democratic" or "liberal," it's this:
If I am in this room, I am comfortable. It has people in it who understand me, and I understand them, on a deep level. I often think that one of the main reasons I'm a liberal is my knowledge that my "tribe" is small, scattered, and unlikely to gain power. In general, I expect to not be like those around me, so I don't feel any particular discomfort at the notion any more.
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| parent )applied to tribes LINK
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )-
--Sincerity is the first casualty of capitalism. John Burdett
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| parent )that the chaplain never quotes the apocrypha, or the Book of Mormon, or the KJV, there is no such thing as non-denominational, only multi-denominational.
It seems only about 10% of Christians have read the Bible
Despite, that, many self described Christians seem to enjoy mocking the "crazy" stuff other denominations believe. The Unitarians, Mormons, and Catholics (lesser so now) still seem to get their lumps.
The people at the CBN worship a God that tortures people fore eternity, for thought crime, it shocks them that that others are getting it wrong.
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| parent )there are many people who do, in fact, believe things - especially about religion. I would assume chaplains fall into that category.
Besides, the question I had is what happens when the "tribal words" for different groups are in direct opposition to one another?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Most people don't really believe much, but many people do.
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| parent )Chinese diplomat: Ties with US deteriorating
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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)Conservatives sorta miss it. In a sweet way, of course.
--“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
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| parent )nt
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent )it's not a good thing at all. They just have to show mild disinterest at the next couple of Treasury and Agency auctions for our financial problems to become much more severe.
If you read the article, it's clear that the only thing that's new is the arms sales to Taiwan. But that's not really new either, every time we have any involvement with Taiwan they get their panties in a twist.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )They would just be shooting themselves in the foot.
It's definitely an escalation though. First it was the Taiwan arms sales, and now it's meeting with the Dalai Lama. I think there's been some skirmishing on trade too, if I recall correctly. I think Obama wants to make clear to Chinese leadership that there will be a cost to humiliating the U.S. in Copenhagen and refusing to cooperate on Iran.
My bet is that after everybody proves how tough they are U.S.-China relations resolve into an even keel. Remember, there was a deterioration at the beginning of the last two administrations too.
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| parent )that economic growth is their only goal. I think it's more likely that they'd be willing to take a hit on their assets in order to manipulate or weaken the country that they see as their only real global competitor.
But yes, every new President gets pushed by the Chinese to see what they can get away with. I seem to remember a US spy plane getting seized by the Chinese about eight years ago.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )They're sitting on a volcano of discontent about corrupt rule (from the peasant class) and repression (from the bourgeoisie.) The thing that keeps them in power is their enormous economic growth. If that slows down, then their political survival could be at risk. So I think that's their number one priority.
We're more their customer than their competitor, let's face it. India and Brazil are their competitors.
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| parent )how they think of it - and it's probably more accurate to say how the consensus over there views it. My point is that to evaluate all their policies on strict economic terms is probably a mistake. How many hundreds of billions would they trade for Taiwan? I don't think that's an impossible tradeoff for them.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )might finally wake us up, or not.
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent )going from a net debtor to a net creditor will take years, maybe decades of lower spending and higher taxes, as well as modifying our trade policies. Voters won't vote for that, they'll vote for the party that tells them they're the best in the world and don't have to change anything.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )You've almost made me cry with that one.
It was almost perfect except for the comma splice. Bravo!
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| parent )unlike you kids, I know exactly where to place a comma.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )There are complete sentences on both sides of the comma. That's a no-no.
I'd have went with the ever-pretentious semicolon since "they" refers immediately back the subject of the first sentence and is a continuation of the same thought, but that's just me.
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| parent )whether you're trying to model written or conversational pacing. Most people don't speak in semicolons.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Trouble with colons comes naturally to me.
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| parent )that you didn't have to have it surgically modified into a semicolon.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Just curious.
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| parent )one more reason to drive a wedge between them and us.
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent )China and authoritarian communism. I suspect you've missed that gradual evolution as China develops a large & influential entrepreneurial class.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )Since when?
China is closer to capitalism than communism. I'd put them as some sort of friendly fascist-type economy. The totalitarianism is there, but they're hardly communist or even socialist.
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| parent ).
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )I expect if members of that large & influential entrepreneurial class wanted to take more than the regime wanted to give they'd be flattened by tanks. While the economy is rolling along at 8% growth a year that is. Throw in a sustained economic downturn then I see an opportunity for reform (although there would still be some people flattened by tanks).
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent )Not in most cases I've seen. Ask the Iranians. Ask the Iraqis.
Funny, same goes for every other gov't on earth, ours included.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )not "= reform". As long as the good times are rolling I expect most Chinese are not eager to rock the boat, just like any other country on earth.
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent )That's why the United States, at the time the wealthiest place on Earth, didn't revolt under the British system.
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| parent )Disaster, financial or otherwise, is not usually a good way to liberalize any government. At least not in dozens of comparable examples I can think of.
A full-on disaster might provoke a civil war/revolution, but who believes that would be an improvement?
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )but outside of a disaster I don't see regime losing enough of its grip for anything like a reform movement to spread.
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent )for the first time in 6000 years. I recommend patience, not pointless belligerence.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )everybody's got one. And as Hank pointed out were just going along with preexisting policies, don't see how that qualifies as pointless belligerence.
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent ).
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )My theory, and this is pretty much why I'll never end up a conservative, is that if I have two options, and I really don't know which one will turn out best long term, I'll pick the one that moves a hundred million people out of abject poverty into the working and middle classes.
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| parent )from the POV of the Chinese leadership, is help the influential classes (the engineers, the entrepreneurs, the intellectuals) prosper and they won't rock the boat. Add in some legitimacy through a grievance resolution system that works for the farmers and laborers, and they won't rock the boat either.
The lesson of the USSR from the POV of outside observers is don't over-estimate the staying power of a one party regime.
When the interests of the Chinese economic elite and the CC party elite fall out of alignment, the party elite will be replaced, or the party will.
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| parent )for authoritarians don't open the door for things like glasnost.
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent ).
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )Called it.
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| parent )the way to financial independence lay in our policies, not their reactions.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )this is about.
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent ).
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )our policies are what is at the heart of this. They don't like them and say relations are deteriorating, I do and say faster please.
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent )Sanctions on Iran - not new policy
Google incident (technology transfer, corporate spying) - not new policy
Arms sales to Taiwan - not new policy
So if our policies haven't changed, what has? It's just the grilling they put every new President through.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )they felt that relations with Obama began pretty good, but now that the administration is acting on these policies they claim relations are worsening. So if what they say in the article is true (I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were lying) then what has changed is the Chinese realize those policies will continue.
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent )I can't think of a President (or even a potential President) going back 30 years who would have differed on these specific policies.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )or maybe they thought Obama offered them an opening to negotiate/change some policies.
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent )Because, um, that's what the track record has been so far?
Just throwing that out there.
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| parent )I'm generally skeptical of the strong push toward closer, er, Sino-US, relations, because I see that effort as one that's mostly about giving capital another weapon with which to bash labor.
But I can also see how engagement over the years, such as it is, has materially improved the lives of millions of people. And I belive that the transformation of the economic system there will force the political system to change. So I settle on the standard center-left angle that our policy should be economic engagement plus strong labor/environmental protections and steady, low-level pressure aimed at opening up the political system while we wait for the economy to force that change.
In light of all that, I really don't see how disengagement -- or a wedge, as you put it -- is in anybody's interests.
So. What's the upside?
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| parent )is BECAUSE capital was able to bash labor.
American's love the Chinese sweatshops.
The Chinese love the Chinese sweatshops.
Amazing how that works...
--It is better to get what you want than it is to be right. -me
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| parent )Marx himself agreed that Capitalism was the greatest productive force in the history of mankind. He admired it.
Americans love cheap prices. They don't love sweatshops. The Chinese love rising standards of living. They don't love sweatshops.
Sweatshops are an evil. Are they a necessary one?
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| parent )is another man's best means for food, clothing, and shelter.
A Chinese worker loves him a sweatshop more than he enjoys starving.
Otherwise, he wouldn't be working in the sweatshop!
Chinese working environment and environment environment have a lot less restrictions than American ones. This will continue until enough people are raised out of poverty and start deciding they don't want to continue drinking orange water or having limbs cut off by machinery.
So, in essence, the definition of a sweatshop varies greatly.
--It is better to get what you want than it is to be right. -me
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| parent )as outsiders, we have no capacity to empower people to make their own decisions, so we have to meekly go along with the power structures currently in place.
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| parent )I always worry about working conditions. People can take jobs for the wages they can get -- and if they can negotiate better ones, so much the better. But nobody rationally seeks out unsafe working conditions or requirements to sleep with the boss. That's just people abusing power.
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| parent )you don't say no to your banker. Weening ourselves off chicom credit will allow us more independence in east asian affairs, namely not worrying about them calling in debts if we have a serious disagreement. We also have a different belief system in what economic engagement will bring by way of political reform. I don't see much evidence reform between Tiananmen and now.
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent ).
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| parent )nt
--"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
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| parent )Engagement over the years has materially improved the lives of millions of people. That's the problem.
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| parent )There's no separating the two countries, and thank God for that. China's facing huge internal changes: I'd rather remain their business partner than to give them a slap in the face, however well-deserved it might be.
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| parent )..is Palin.
But hey, even a stopped clock is right twice a blind nut.
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)what's the recommended maximum weight capacity of a 2-year-old baby? Cuz she's been riding that kid as far as she can get...
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| parent )That kid has been carrying the weight of Single Issue Andy's obsession for a year and a half now--he'll probably be a Olympic gold medalist in weightlifting by the time he's sixteen.
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| parent )... over and over and over and over and over and over, perhaps some idiot will actually believe that lie. All others will observe, however, that this is simply another repetition of that lie.
--Me: We! -- Ali
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| parent )Sullivan really is a shallow, selfish, petty little man.
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| parent )...being the "single issue" slam. Heck, I'm not even sure what that "single" issue is. It might refer to Sullivan's discussions about the mysterious circumstances surrounding the birth of Palin's youngest, or it could be Sullivan's disagreement with BushCo's attitude towards the queers amongst us. Or, this "single issue" could be something completely different, as far as I know.
I agree with your depiction of Sullivan, but calling him "single-issue" anything is just plain dumb, because his writings and his columns discuss multiple issues. If all he wrote about was one thing, nobody would have heard of him.
--Me: We! -- Ali
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| parent )Maybe someday Sullivan will get that and wander off to be appropriately medicated. But I doubt it.
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| parent )As expected, Jon Stewart is very good on Obama's recent verbal caning of the GOP congressboobs.
Here.
I'm pretty certain this will never happen again. Because GOP political pros know it's a losing proposition for them. You know. Sitting in a room and engaging in a televised conversation about pertinent issues with the POTUS.
I mean, c'mon. It's just not their way.
--“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
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)the answer continues to be "both".
....why? Oh, who cares? We just impeach Dems at this point out of general principle.
...it goes on. We're in full wingnut crazy awful mode, and there's nothing to be done. No member of the GOP can survive a primary without being insane, full stop. Of course, as BD notes, this is the fault of the Democrats, for failing to work with a party in which the plurality opinion is birtherism.
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)Sincerity is the first casualty of capitalism. John Burdett
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| parent )didn't realize you were referencing the same poll, Des.
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| parent )I'm not sure what you're saying that I've noted. There are few GOPers in Congress who question Obama's place of birth and who think he should be impeached. The GOPers who run for Congress have to have sufficient enough appeal to the broader electorate in order to get elected, so your connecting the dots between the Republicans in the Kos survey and the Republicans in Congress is moderately to heavily ridiculous.
The problem remains that your so-called leadership failed to get a core group of Republicans on board in order to pass historic landmark legislation. I seriously doubt that moderate conservatives such as Lugar, McCain, Graham, Collins, etc. are beholden to birther nuts.
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| parent )...that think the earth is 6k years old and all that goes with it. Might partly help explain the strong birther movement for them.
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| parent )1) You've been adamant that every problem the Dems face is due to insufficient bipartisanship.
2) How many is "few"? That's a pretty "weasel words" statement. Set the bar.
3) Obama's characterization -- that the GOP has painted itself into a corner with the rhetoric which selects for, then amplifies, crazy -- is quite accurate. So the personal views of the individual congressfolk are irrelevant. The point is that the party is institutionally crazy.
Look, this was always going to happen; the Repubs went nearly this mad when Clinton was elected, and he was white. There is this deep belief that laws and democracy mean that conservatives win, and that if a law or election doesn't go their way, that means the system is suspect.
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| parent )(1) is false. Insufficient bipartisanship is one problem your party has.
(2) is an unreasonable request. If you can demonstrate that more than a few GOPers have said they are birthers and that Obama should be impeached, then by all means, educate us.
(3) is your opinion, and it assumes--falsely--that every single GOP Senator has painted himself into a corner with his or her rhetoric. The reality is that, going by Panel 11 in BG's diary, there is a small core group of seven or eight Republicans who are sufficiently independent, and they have a track record of working with Democrats and get stuff done, and McCain's and Graham's names aren't even listed. That problem is that Obama's agenda--and by extension, Congress'--was too ambitious because it tried to move policy farther than the people wanted it to go, and since you didn't have a core of GOPers on board right out of the starting gate, you doomed your own chances. Playing the race card won't help you, nor will your other various forms of hate speech. My suggestion is for you--personally and collectively--to get over your tantrum and figure what the common ground is and pass that.
I'll also note that Panel 11 shows that there are definite liberal and moderate blocs in your own caucus.
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| parent )Public opinion is shaped, as any intelligent conservative understands, since your lot has been much more successful in shaping it than your political adversaries.
Public opinion changed radically over the health care debate, where a huge chunk of that change came about b/c of deliberate and coordinated dissemination of false info., also known as propaganda.
The vast majority of false info. came from opponents of health care reform and those coordinating it had no interest in 'going where the people wanted to go' -- they had in interest in telling people where to go.
I understand if you don't object to this b/c you agree with the direction. But did you actually what happened in your own country during the spring, summer, and fall of 2009?
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| parent )More like information that is one-sided, that takes out of context or otherwise misconstrues an opponent's position, that shows only the positive side of the promulgator's position, or otherwise fails the objectivity test. IOW, virtually all advocacy. Least that's the way I define propaganda when I propagate it.
--Sincerity is the first casualty of capitalism. John Burdett
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| parent )equally twisted and distorted the facts?
I assumed all y'all conservatives knew your side was winning through more and better propaganda scare tactics.
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| parent )I don't think it's wise policy to denigrate the collective intelligence of the people. It's elitist and it basically pisses people off, which is unhelpful because you need a good majority of them to pass your agenda. You tried to sell it, and you failed. If the issue is important to you, my suggestion is to go back to the drawing board and try again, maybe get seven or eight Republicans in your corner before putting something on the floor. What a concept.
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| parent )I'm not running for office or trying to communicate to the public, I'm talking to you.
Propaganda works, and many people aren't particularly sophisticated about politics. This is news at 11 type of stuff.
my complaint is that you're white-washing the propaganda. As if the death panels and government takeovers and socialism etc. talk didn't happen, but HCR died because of some static 'where the people wanted to go' factor.
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| parent )No. Propaganda happens all the time, and yours just wasn't good enough, both in countering the distortions from the other side and in selling and framing your own message. I've criticized Bush for the same malady.
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| parent )by supporters of health care reform. Can you think of an equivalent to death panels?
I watched fairly closely. No doubt you think it's b/c health care reformers weren't successful in getting their message out.
Is it possible they didn't in general intend to mislead, unlike the oppo?
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| parent )If you can't think of a false that claim supporters of HCR put forth, then the Whoppers of 2009 would be a good place to start. Democrats contributed to the distortions put out there, although the folks on the right were worse. Betsy McCaughey was a one-girl distortion crew. I don't understand why any GOPer would think she has a shred of credibility.
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| parent )boots on.
When it finally does, look out death panels!
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| parent )I suppose I should have accepted the depth of commitment to weasel words. No, BD, I'm not going to spend an hour digging up quotes to have you say, "but it's n+3 that means 'more than a few.'"
Panel 11 shows no such thing, BD. You can't keep just making stuff up and expecting people to take you seriously. Well, you can, just only on RedState.
Finally, I'm not really a Democrat any more. Obama finished the job -- I'm nowhere near deluded or fascistic enough to consider voting for a Repub, but my identity isn't Dem.
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| parent )And I stand by my interpretation. I made up nothing.
If you're not of either party and you don't live in Vermont or Connecticut, then you've just put yourself on the political sidelines. Congratulations. You've marginalized yourself.
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| parent )Certainly, I would never expect you to change your opinion based on anything you read here.
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| parent )it would require them to be about a hundred times smarter and savvier then I'd ever admit.
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| parent )He is directing Eric Holder to not prosecute credible cases of torture. Torture is not only illegal it is contrary to several treaties that we have signed and ratified.
However, that lacks the "oomph" when you learn I would have impeached Bush II, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Nixon, and several federal judges.
Impeachment should be much more common than it is.
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| parent )What do you have in mind for him as grounds for impeachment? And why not FDR, Truman, Ike, JFK, LBJ, or Bush the Elder?
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| parent )FDR, Truman, etc. I am simply ignorant of their administrations to the point that I can't say if I would or wouldn't.
I can't remember why with respect to Carter. Maybe I meant Ford. Yeah, probably Ford for pardoning Nixon.
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| parent )The impeachment proceedings against Clinton sort of ruined that idea.
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| parent )The fact that the questions were BS doesn't matter. He still committed a felony while in office. Get rid of him.
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| parent )And yep, this is the Year of the Crazy for the GOP. (Crist, for example, is pretty much toast.) But it's sorta worse than that. Cuz you have perfectly sane individuals in the GOP who are more than willing to ride the crazy right back into power. Not that they know what they'll do when they get there. Not that they see anything wrong with it, either.
What's the old saw? We are who we pretend to be, so be careful how you pretend.
--“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
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| parent )ready to ride those crazies back into it, haha.
--It is better to get what you want than it is to be right. -me
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| parent )does the party ride the crazies or vice versa?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )this destroys the concept of the whole "we can't do anything because the Republicans won't let us" thing the Dems appear to be planning to run on in 2010. People will not be able to process the mental illness which has gripped the right side of US politics, and they'll assume the Repubs aren't that bad.
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| parent )IS THE TALIBAN THIS CRAZY?
--“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
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| parent )Ahh, who cares. Tho' I do think Star Trek sorta got jobbed. I mean if you're going to expand to 10 best picture noms, isn't that exactly the kind of movie that should be honored? Here're you ten best pix:
An Education
The Blind Side
District 9
The Hurt Locker
Inglorious Basterds
Precious
A Serious Man
Up
Up in the Air
Avatar
An Education doesn't belong there. Nice little movie, but just so. A Serious Man is there only because the Coen Bros. made it. The Blind Side? Feh.
Love me some District 9, tho'. Sharlto Copley -- who never acted before and improvised all of his dialogue -- was overlooked, and that's a shame.
--“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
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)Puts a conventional story into a pretty unconventional format (faux documentary, thanks Orson Welles) with a very unconventional lead role. Probably too geeky for the Oscar though (like Avatar).
Let's see...
YES
Up
District 9
MAYBE
Avatar
NO
Inglorious Basterds
DIDN'T SEE
all the others
MY VOTE
--Up
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )Inglorious Basterds was one for the ages. It isn't Pulp Fiction or Reservoir Dogs, but it was still great.
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| parent )...a huge disappointment; especially from as talented a director as Tarantino: it wouldn't have been better even it had been all in English....
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| parent )... if it'd just scrapped all the scenes with its eponymous heroes.
--Bene vixit, bene qui latuit
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| parent )poster-glued together with incoherent action sequences, completely missing a second act. A silly ending. I like a good Nazzy-killin' movie as much as the next guy...but this isn't one. :)
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )the farmhouse scene. That was really good stuff*.
Of course, that only made what came after seem sloppy.
*and if Tarantino hadn't felt the need to treat his audience like dolts and show the family in hiding, it would have been a great scene.
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent ).
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )The more he gets the opportunity to be a self-indulgent film geek. Sometimes it's great fun, but it tends to be tiresome. It was particularly bad in parts of Basterds.
It's for this reason that I think that Jackie Brown is probably the best of his movies. When he does a movie played almost totally straight, it's damn good viewing.
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| parent )I don't know why people are crapping on Inglorious, tho.
The 'bad' parts of the film people are referencing is where Tarantino mixed in pulpy genres vs. the opening (which was impressive film-making). There was enough patchwork and juxtaposition that I don't see the complaint of 'growing tired'. This was not a johnny one-note Kill Bill.
My thought is the mix produced a better result than if he'd pursued a coherent genre of either type. It was suited for raising the issues about the cinema and reality Tarantino wanted to explore.
It was an ambitious and well-made film that I think Tarantino deserves credit for.
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| parent )But I think that with certain scenes, especially in the scene introducing Operation Kino, there was a bit too much of Tarantino's "movies about movies" thing going on. Same thing with the production and screening of Stoltz der Nation.
I enjoy his movies that are obviously stylized and telegraph to their audiences, "this movie is completely fantastical." It's just that in that sort of tongue in cheek style, he doesn't rise to the potential of what he's actually capable of.
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| parent )That's just it. The movie nods to genres, but it doesn't do anything more than nod. You don't actually learn anything new about The Dirty Dozen watching this film, and meanwhile the hodgepodge of genres doesn't do anything to advance the story.
Like I said before, the film has no Act II, runs like entire reels went missing, and is really nothing but a skeleton film on which are hung a few amazing set-piece dialogue scenes. There's no progression in the story at all.
--"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire
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| parent )it had a first half that could have been leading to a great movie, and a second half that completely fell apart.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )...and about to lose his home...well, just staggeringly tremendous story telling.
They say they don't make them like they used to, they had strong stories back then...Flash, Pixar still has them.
You would not think so, but this was just so gorgeously good.
My Pick:
The Hurt Locker...with the confession that I walked out of the theater...I couldn't take it.
But that is my problem, not one of the movies.
What I saw looked and felt great.
Well...lol
I sometimes have trouble with war movies.
Traveller
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| parent )Excellent movie, on multiple levels. I'd love to see a sequel. Copley really pulled it off.
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| parent )Story found via slashot
Stupid kids keep on not writing papers correctly (esoteric joke for stinerman).
Maybe in few decades, emoticons will be real words, and don't belittle that idea.
The end of the world before the last of our generation is dead I say! I'm going to wait around to 2012 AD.
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)And raise you a "At least these kids don't have trouble being in their seat and quiet before the bell rings".
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| parent )I earned a detention for retrieving a folder hidden by a classmate while a teacher was brooding over her inability to command a classroom and for talking before the bell.
What's the antonym of table again?
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| parent )I've got a room you can rent. Not really, but it'd be awesome if i did.
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| parent )I'm one step above a vagabond, not about to move to a less well off and yet still near vagabond.
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| parent )I've seen some decline in student quality over the past few years, but that has fairly closely tracked student work hours. If you have this, you can't have that.
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| parent )I suppose, I understand. ;^)
---“It is unwise for the government to tell people how they can spend their money” - Barney Frank, Chairman House Financial Services Committee, on on-line gambling, 2009
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| parent )