if a shoe drops in a forest and no one cares....

... does it make a sound?

cabinet level officials discussed and ordered on "dozens" of occasions specific programs of "enhanced interrogation" up to and including water boarding.

my conservative (*ahem*) guess is: no. this story will disappear as many of the others have.

thank you,

Vice President Cheney, former National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Colin Powell, as well as CIA Director George Tenet and Attorney General John Ashcroft.

thanks a lot.
--


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Forest?

(#89299)
Bird Dog's picture

More like an urban freeway during rush hour, judging by Memeorandum. FTR, I'm on the side of Jack Goldsmith on this one.

If you don't have any fresh ideas, then you use stale tactics to scare the voters.--Barack Obama, 2008

I prefer pithier summations

(#89306)

so I'd have to say I'm on the side of Janet Ashcroft.

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

Heh- nt

(#89302)

"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta

Look on the bright side

(#89289)

Without all that invaluable intelligence gleaned from torturing our captives, we never would have known about Iraq's WMDs.

Also, Bill Richardson Endorses Obama is the funniest Red State Update yet. No torture connection but it might make you forget about being part of a democratic polity that tortures people.

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

Speaking of Looking on the Bright Side of Torture

(#89328)

I can't see the embed

(#89330)

but I'm guessing it's from Life of Brian.

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

heh

(#89401)

now i have this image in my head of basically everyone who has acted as an apologist for the bush admin's national security regime being the michael palin character from the movie:

"next! crucifixion? good....... out of the door, line on the left, one cross each. next! crucifixion? good....... out of the door, line on the left, one cross each."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_v9x-8wJ1c

“The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.”
-George Bernard Shaw

Heh, heh. Siwence!

(#89424)

What is all this insolence? You will find yourself in gladiator school vewy quickly with wotten behaviour like that.

No, no. I want him fighting wabid, wild animals within a week.

Sweet

(#89400)

Now that my mindreading bona fides are established, I can report conclusively to all of you that John McCain would be just fine with a hundred more years of war in Iraq.

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

One day

(#89275)

on a business trip, or on a visit to a conference, or perhaps on a vacation, there will be a hand on the shoulder and a quiet but forceful "Could you please come with me".

American administration figures tried for war crimes, as shameful as it is, would be an essential part of wiping the stain of this Presidency from our history.

I blame it all on the Internet

You're wrong....

(#89312)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

....but it doesn't matter because it'll never happen in any case. And I'm kind of happy about it. :^)

"Unfortunately the universe doesn't agree with me. We'll see which one of us is still standing when this is over." -- Eliezer Yudkowsky

Yes, Bernard

(#89318)

I'm sure you're happy to see the US reputation swirl down the toilet. If you took even a slightly larger view, you would realize that this is not a benefit to the US and in fact weakens our hand in international affairs. I doubt there will be any kind of coalition under future Republican administrations for quite a while.

But revel in your amorality. I'm sure you made some sort of calculation in which this is a benefit to you.

I blame it all on the Internet

Bernard (and other conservatives)

(#89332)

will rediscover their sense of moral outrage when something like this happens to an American citizen at the hands of a foreign government.

Only if his or her last name is Guerrero, apparently nt

(#89334)

I blame it all on the Internet

Unless there is another genocide in Europe

(#89321)

in which the Europeans find themselves, again, unable to handle on their own, I doubt we'll see any kind of coalition under future Democratic administrations for quite a while either.

"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta

A simple question for you, Sulla

(#89335)

should torture be punished by law or not?

I blame it all on the Internet

Sure

(#89337)

but the fantasy that any American official is ever going to be frog marched into the Hague is just that- a fantasy. But that shouldn't stop you from dreaming.

"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta

So you agree that they should be

(#89341)

you just don't fantasize about it. Fair enough.

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

I don’t think it’s realistic

(#89344)

that any American official is going to get nabbed and tried in a foreign court in my lifetime. Furthermore I doubt 12 people will ever be rounded up here who would convict any Bush Administration official for waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or for depriving Jose Padilla of sleep or for putting him in stress positions. I think Nilsey is right in one sense, nothing will come of this report, but not because of some news blackout, but because most Americans are not at all bothered by it.

"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta

That's sad if true...

(#89345)

It would also be interesting to see what happens when whoever apprehends suspects for the ICC runs into a former President's Secret Service detail.

I thought you had to belong to the ICC

(#89346)

before it could have any jurisdiction over you.

"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta

You thought correctly

(#89442)

which sheds a rather self-serving light on the Bush administration's dire resistance to the idea.

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

I take it, therefore,

(#89325)

that you are in favor of the creation of a European-only rapid response force in parallel to NATO?

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Europe can create whatever they want

(#89329)

or they can let us continue to do their fighting, makes no difference to me.

"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta

"Let us" is disingenuous,

(#89336)

and you are surely aware of it.

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Nope

(#89338)

please explain.

"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta

It is explicit US policy...

(#89349)

...that Europe not create such a force and that any action be taken via NATO (which is of course US-dominated) and not through any other institution.

Europe isn't "letting us" do anything; it is acceding to our wishes, consistently and strongly expressed.

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

You may need to check that

(#89631)

There are combined European units in existence right now. However, there is a practical objection to such a thing that has nothing to do with US domination. When forces combine the political and diplomatic caveats that go along with it are often pretty restrictive. This isn't a European thing, we do it too, read some of the NORAD framework. The problem with Europe isn't one of character but that so many political entities exist, each with its own caveats and stipulations. NATO does cut through a lot of that but with a new organization comes new agreements. A European coalition might be able to get through all the cat herding to act decisively but it might not.

If that policy is "explicit", can you give me a link please?

(#89410)

One quoting the government on this policy, that is. Thanks.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Bookmark. -nt-

(#89480)

.

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Uh, OK. Meaning what, exactly?

(#89626)

Got a cite, or not?

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Meaning I have references to docs,

(#89643)

but no official docs yet, so I'm working on it as time permits.

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Thank you. I like to know this stuff regardless of politics.

(#89878)

And as I hope you know by now, I don't have any more difficulty than you do when it comes to believing in the duplicity of this (or any other) administration. We may disagree over what they are lying about, but no one can seriously doubt that we are being lied to on a regular basis, or that there are powerful economic forces that regularly are given preference over the commonweal by the Bush Administration.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

I didn't think it was duplicity.

(#89942)

It was discomfort over the emergence of a new military power.

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Well, maybe, but I'm very skeptical.

(#90006)

The cost to the Europeans of developing a military with even a fraction of the power of ours would be astronomical, and would bankrupt the many socialist states involved, who simply don't have the wherewithal to spend significant amounts on their self-defense.

Seeing a combined European force as a new military power of any significance is difficult, particularly if they were positioned as competitors unable to benefit from our technology. Even with its own enormous military budget, China is still twenty years behind, and likely will remain there as long as they depend on stealing our military technology (or buying obsolescent Russian arms) instead of developing their own.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

I'm sorry, but the numbers are friendlier than that.

(#90039)

The US has 2 million persons under arms and 11 carrier battle groups. Let's say that Europe would want 1/4 of our projection capacity* and plenty of self-defense capacity, so give them 3 carrier battle groups and about 1 million persons under arms, and split the difference -- 1/3 of our budget.

The US spends about $600 billion a year, so Europe would need $200 billion a year to have similar but lesser capacity.

The thing is, they nearly do.

France, the UK, Germany, and Italy add up to $165 billion, and the smaller countries commit nontrivial amounts as well.

If Europe wanted to upgrade to 1/2 our capacity (5 carrier groups, 1 million persons under arms, etc.) they'd have to spend $100 billion more, which is about .66% of their GDP. The money's there, if it's a priority.

*which would have been more than sufficient to, for example, end the Bosnian conflict.

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

You left superiority of arms out of the equation

(#90047)

Take your "5 carrier groups" scenario. Looking at what it costs to build a single carrier leaves out the R&D that are the results of the US devoting a significant %age of GDP to military superiority since WWII. As we can see with the Chinese, that gap is virtually impossible to close so long as US military development remains at anything like it's present rate. As the Chinese (unsuccessfully so far) or Europeans try to develop an equivalent to our current technology, we remain so far ahead in developing new technology that they will never catch up.

The Europeans can't simply decide to pay what we pay to build a nuclear carrier, a Los Angeles-class nuclear sub, a stealth bomber, the A-10, the F-22 etc. because they lack everything from the theoretical knowledge to the military-industrial infrastructure to build such things. France has one or two carriers that are roughly equivalent to what we used in the '60's, while Britain makes due with mini-carriers that can only launch Harrier jets, with their subsonic top speed. Both countries have nuclear subs, but again those are well behind what the the Chinese are now building.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

That's fair,

(#90065)

but keep in mind that you're envisioning a much smaller role for Europe's military -- to keep the peace in its immediate region. I view the "1/2 the size of the US military" metric as vastly inflated.

It's my suspicion that the EU could reintegrate commands and shift some resources around currently -- buy fewer Leopards and more Harriers -- and have all the force projection it would require for the role you're discussing.

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

You asked my opinion about it

(#89352)

and I answered I didn't care if Europe created its own force or let us continue to do the heavy lifting for them, so I don't see how my answer was disingenuous. In addition, if Europe wanted to buck our wishes I don't see where there is anything we could do about it because it isn't like we are going to go war over sessions from NATO. Europe acquiesces to the status quo, therefore they let the situation such as it is persist (i.e., they let us fight for them).

"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta

Some day someone will make a calculation

(#89414)

that totes up all of the post-WWII savings the countries that are now in the EU realized as the result of the US defending Europe against the Soviets. The factors should obviously include the effective reduction in the %age of GNP each country at risk would have had to pay to arm themselves against the Warsaw Pact forces stationed in Europe if US troops and missiles hadn't been there. And how much higher the already extortionate tax rates of countries like Sweden and Norway would have been as a result.

Whoops, maybe Sweden is a bad example, as they claimed to be neutral during WWII but provided the Nazis with 40% of the steel the Wehrmacht needed to make its Panzers. Let's use Denmark and France instead.

Gratuitous aside: the French ran in fear from their own tanks during their wholesale retreat from the German blitzkreig around the Maginot Line via Poland. OT; I just thought I'd mention it.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

I assume you mean Belgium, not Poland.

(#89482)

And the French lost 200,000 men in combat during WWII. They didn't flee; they were militarily defeated in a series of very bloody battles.

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Fixed three hours before your correction, but thanks anyway.

(#89502)

-o-o-o-

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Another Fall-of-France error:

(#89484)
Jay C's picture

The original start-date of the main German offensive ("Case Yellow/"Fall Gelb") in 1940 - the advance through the Ardennes - was May 10, 1940: not June 5. The latter date, however, is usually considered the start of the second and final phase of the offensive ("Case Red"/"Fall Rot") - the final advance to Paris. Which of course, bypassed the main formations of the French Army: who, far from having "fled", were stuck in the Dunkirk bridgehead.

Error in your correction:

(#89501)

IIRC, less than half of French arms retreated via Dunkirk; at least 250K soldiers were left below/south of the line drawn by the Wehrmacht in the first blitzkrieg against France, which reached the Channel in the third week of May. The first offensive you reference was what I refer to below; it was aimed at splitting the combined French/British forces, and did exactly that very quickly. BEF soldiers outnumbered French evacuees at Dunkirk by 3:1 I think.

Re: "fled" in quotes: like I said, Keegan reports that the French retreat from the East towards Paris was so rapid and disorganized that French infantrymen fled from their own tanks. Think of that as a factoid that I don't see anyone here seriously challenging. It's unique AFAIK, but that doesn't make it significant, or not.

I'm surprised no one here has mentioned French arms under Napoleon conquering all before them - at least until they traveled a bit too afar East.

EDIT: Anon is a tomsylpuppet. Ask Mr. Drupal for details, not me. I blame Hank.

We are all tomsylpuppets. The BEF left behind

(#89520)

tons of armor and materiel during the Dunkirk retreat. After, of course, letting itself get totally outmaneuvered by the Wehrmacht. But only the French units deserve upbraiding?

Don't believe everything you think.

Who said only the French need upbraiding?

(#89622)

Might as well mention the Chosun Reservoir retreat. That is, if there's a rule saying if you mention A, you must also mention B. C, D and every other arguably similar example. Sort of like you can't criticize McCain without dealing with the carter phenomenon.

The running from their own tanks bit was just a factoid, to take or leave as people like. On the bright side, is revivified a moribund thread. %^>

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Just pointing out our other allies

(#89639)

left plenty of materiel in German hands. The French can be unbelievably snotty & condescending. Here's the thing about snobbery though: it only works on you if you suspect it might be true.

Don't believe everything you think.

I've studied the fall of France, it's different than you say.

(#89437)

The French did not expect the Reichswehr to come through Belgium. France put up a spirited defense against a ruthless and unprincipled enemy: one might as well say we were defeated on 9/11 as to say the French turned belly up when Germany came through Belgium.

France under Pétain was a tragedy, and DeGaulle vilified the old man unfairly. The Third Republic had been a bloated, corrupt mess: Pétain can hardly be blamed for the incompetents and den of thieves in Paris who had long been canoodling with Hitler before the invasion.

Like many another character of his type, Pétain's biographies were mostly written by his enemies. He was far too complex a figure to be vilified in toto. In our time, after 9/11, we now find our government torturing prisoners, running a secret police, tapping our phone lines, running concentration camps overseas. Pétain was an authoritarian fossil, yes, but he was a man of very considerable honor.

The retreat of the French Army in the face of its own tanks

(#89450)

comes directly from John Keegan, who I think is a reliable authority on the subject. I don't recall specifically whether it's described in Teh Second World War or in his map book; I'll find the cite if you are interested.

The German panzer/Luftwaffe offensive that led to the fall of France began in the Ardennes Forest (I incorrectly mentioned Poland) on June 5, 1940; Paris fell on June 14th and France surrendered to the Germans on June 25. I don't recall there being a significant Fifth Column in Paris, at least in the context of the fall of France. I assume France's reliance on the Maginot Line, with the necessary corollary assumption that Belgium could resist Germany, is still taught in various war colleges as an example of monumental folly.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a ruthless, unprincipled enemy." Are you talking about Stukas, the Germans' superior mechanized infantry, their obviously superior battle plans, their invasion of Belgium, their march to the Channel in May 1940 that split the allied forces in half, Dunkirk, or what?

I don't recall surrendering to anyone and turning Washington over to enemy forces after 9/11 so I don't get your analogy. The French fought for their country, then surrendered quickly. The English fought for their country and never surrendered. Others like Sweden, Portugal and Spain did neither, and made huge profits from the sale of war materiel to the Nazis. Of course war is never that simple, but those are the facts as I was taught them.

I know little about Petain. (I like the scene in Casablanca when Claude Rains tosses the Vichy water bottle into the trash, though.) But I have read a bit about the deployment of French forces in WWI (Keegan again, mainly), enough to conclude that the French army was led by a bunch of arrogant, ignorant aristocrats who thought nothing of squandering the lives of tens of thousands of soldiers on a whim. Not a position unique to the French, of course, but they seemed to be the worst at it.

IMO anyone who wants to get some understanding of the insanity of war doesn't have to look any farther than the slaughter (actually murder, when viewed objectively) of hundreds of thousands of soldiers by their own high commands in the trench/gas/WP etc. warfare of WWI. History books generally claim that Gavrilo Princip's assassination of Archduke Ferdinand in Bosnia precipitated that war, when Bismarck's absence on a royal cruise was more of a factor. (And how many mention that the wound wouldn't have been lethal of the Archduke hadn't had his clothes actually sewn onto his body to conceal his corpulence?)

I'm betting that books like Remarque's All Quiet on the Western Front or Trumbo's Johnny Got His Gun aren't required reading in high school anymore.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

I have withdrawn from a battlefield under tank cover

(#89497)

and was very glad to see it arrive. Forget Keegan for the nonce, read Rommel’s collected papers to understand how combined arms attacks and retreats are managed. It is little different from knights, pikemen and footmen from medieval warfare. The knight and its corollary the chariot have never been eliminated from warfare, though European warfare never lent itself to chariot warfare except in some of the Roman campaigns. The Israelis have resorted to the ancient word מרכבה Merkava, the chariot, to describe their own tanks. Be instructed thereby: the historians seldom get the flavor of battle in their comfy chairs behind typewriters. Wars have a common consistency to them: technology changes nothing but the tools, not the roles.

As in Iraq, the French insurgency did not appear for almost six months. The Germans were allowed to settle in. German weaknesses were observed, the depth of their patrols were closely studied, ambush points were determined, and as in Iraq, the Maquis insurgency went after collaborators, not the Germans themselves. As in Iraq, the Allies armed the Maquis with both bombs and radios: most of the Maquis actions looked exactly like the actions taken against us in Iraq: the emplaced bomb and the murder of collaborators. The Germans were obliged to over-commit valuable resources to the occupation of France, and never once controlled the south of France.

The Germans were as I have described them: ruthless and unprincipled. WW1’s mistakes were not repeated in WW2. Defense in depth became the order of the day. Mass assaults were fruitless: the Hurtgen Forest also featured thousands of deaths by friendly fire. The Americans came out of the Hurtgen Forest bloodied and broken in spirit.

The important lessons of Occupied France were not brought to bear on our own war in Iraq.

Surrendered Quickly to Axis Powers in WWII:

(#89457)

Czechoslovakia
Albania
Poland
Denmark
Norway
The Netherlands
Belgium
France
British Somaliland
Crete
Greece
Yugoslavia
The Philipines
Malaya
Dutch East Indies

Seemed to be quite a popular thing to do for awhile.

Don't believe everything you think.

Surrendered Quickly to Axis Powers in WWII:

(#210082)

Poland did not surrender to Germany nor the Soviet Union. Individual military formations surrendered as did the city of Warsaw.
The Poles had no illusions of being able to hold out indefinitely. They depended on France, with whom they had a mutual defense pact, signed in 1924, to attack the weakened western border of Germany within two weeks of hostilities. General Gamelin lied to the Poles to the very end. To make matters worse, England and France ordered Poland not to mobilize so as to not to upset Herr Hitler. To disobey would make the defense pact null and void. As a result, the poles began their mobilization only a week before the German attack.
When Hitler occupied the Rhineland, Poland asked France whether they wished to trigger their mutual defense pact, the French demurred. Bad mistake for which millions would die.

How many "major military powers" are in your list?

(#89500)

I only see one.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Czechoslovakia was formidable

(#89518)

at the time. Poland fought like mad, but like everyone else was outgunned and outmaneuvered. Let's also remember the British Expeditionary Force, a "major military power" was in full retreat during the Fall of France.

All surrender monkeys?

Don't believe everything you think.

Just let it go

(#89523)

Conservative white males can't make derogatory jokes about blacks, gays or even women so much in public anymore. The French are just about all they have left. It's reflexive - they gotta have someone to kick around and snort about.

Ok, no need for the race-baiting.

(#89524)

The antipathy to France is based on modern French foreign policy which is, basically, to block US adventurism wherever possible. Plus the fact that many liberals affect continental manners & tastes (largely French) -- conservatives feel cut off perhaps from "high culture" but regardless of that, tweaking anything liberals like is the mother's milk conservatives are raised on. The teat it comes from is named Rush Limbaugh.

Don't believe everything you think.

Rather Amusing. . .

(#89634)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .given that it was French adventurism in Indochina that helped drag us into Vietnam--not to mention the rap on the knuckles that Eisenhower gave to France, the UK, and Israel over the Suez Crisis in 1956. Iraq was cozy with the French for decades--the French built Saddam's nuclear reactor that Israel reduced to rubble, and it was a French Exocet missile fired by an Iraqi jet that badly damaged the USS Stark in 1987. Given all of the online dimwits I've seen calling Saddam "our boy," it's worth mentioning all of this as a reminder that yes, the French deserve a great deal of derision for their behavior during the whole Iraq matter.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

What a broad and all-encompassing sense

(#89641)

of responsibility for the remote effects of peoples' actions you take. When the people in question aren't currently GOP allies.

Don't believe everything you think.

So the French to you are simply a stabilizing brake on us?

(#89624)

Sorry but you're ignoring the many venal reasons that motivate much foreign policy, including this one. The French were cynical profiteers w/r/t Iraq, nothing more, and had been for years of Saddam. Remember the big, cheesy stink they raised when they felt excluded from the US fund handout to contractors rebuilding Iraq's enrgy, water and oil infrastructure? It's hard to see the ideological purity there.

And wouldn't refusing to bid on US military tankers be a nice "put your money where your mouth is" example of the French restraining American adventurism? The main use of those tankers its to extend the offensive reach of US air power, after all. The supposed idealist purity of the French smells of elderberries, and it's father was a hamster.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

The French are cynical profiteers. We are

(#89637)

cynical profiteers w/r/t Iraq. That sounds about right to me. What sticks in my craw is the chutzpah it takes to get all bent out of shape about it when they act in their national interest.

I'm enjoying your gleeful embrace of no-bid contracts & excluding erstwhile allies because they wouldn't support the GOP in its war. So much for free market competition providing greater efficiency. So much for getting multiple parties invested in the well being of Iraq. Good, solid diplomatic thinking there.

So no, they're not a break on us. They're an economic rival that engages in a lot of obstructionism as a way of getting what they want. Cowards? Same folks that won WWI we're talking about.

Don't believe everything you think.

France won WWII? News to me.

(#90007)

I thought it was generally accepted that they were given 1/4 of Berlin and a seat on the Security Council as a diplomatic sop to DeGaulle's limitless ego. But I've never heard that the French won WWII before. Do you mean by not shooting at US soldiers marching through their country after D-Day?

"Gleeful embrace of no-bid contracts"? How about people like the French and Germans attacking the US repeatedly for going into Iraq, they bitching and moaning when they didn't get a piece of the post-invasion reconstruction pie that was funded entirely by Us taxpayer dollars? I just call that karmic balance, personally. That doesn't mean I'm OK with KBR profiteering; I've said the opposite here more than once. But French/German profiteering isn't my preference, either.

Given that you admit that the French are cynical profiteers, your suggestion that giving them some $$$$ would get them "invested in the well being of Iraq" sounds a bit simplistic. I'm sure they can be bought, but not that cheaply.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

BTW, the Red Army won WWII. :) -nt-

(#90024)

.

Don't believe everything you think.

WWI, not WWII.

(#90022)

In terms of getting allies invested in restoring sanity to Iraq. Total US cost of the Persian Gulf War: around $9 billion. We had allies helping with the financing, you see. Total US cost of Iraqi Freedom, after including interest on borrowed funds: around $4 trillion.

People keep throwing around the phrase "skin in the game." Guess what allowing other countries to invest in the infrastructure of Iraq would cause them to feel about Iraq's security. Now, instead, closed out of investments and third tit on Iraq's oil by deliberate Bush policy, France, Germany, Russia, China, India and other major powers have a financial interest in seeing our gigantic investment in Iraq fail (while at the same time a meltdown into regional war would threaten their interests just as it would ours). In other words, we've maneuvered them into a position where our success is bad for them, our failure good for them. And asking them nicely doesn't seem likely to get them to help finance our debacle. Does that seem wise, given that we now can't afford to bring near-term stability to Iraq's oil industry?

Petty partisan revenge is a really, really dumb way to do foreign policy.

Don't believe everything you think.

My antipathy toward France...

(#89601)

...is based on their terrifyingly inhumane colonial practices.

But I know, I know, I'm only supposed to care about brown people when we're talking about invading their countries.

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Weren't France's colonies almost always among your brown

(#89625)

people? I don't get the comment.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Didn't mean

(#89527)

to imply that anyone in specific is racist. It's the hyuck-hyuck attitude towards a group deemed 'inferior' in this case.

But the cheese-eating surrender monkey French jokes come from exactly the same place that the old 'Polack', Irish, blonde and black jokes comes from.

And yeah, to me it's not funny making fun of Allied soldiers behavior while fighting Nazis.

Pranks are funny when you make them, but not when others do.

(#89623)

OK, the double standard never surprises me here. Hey, war's a serious business - no making lite of it.

The "only racists mock the French" part of your comment is one of the more idiotic race card plays I've seen in a long time. Kudos for originality, at least.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Maybe

(#89648)

some of those frogs defecated in their pants and died screaming and crying for their mothers! In French! Ha ha, right?

Maybe some of those cowards limped or hopped away from the tanks because one of their feet got blown off! Ha ha.

Maybe some of those cowardly French guys lost their hearing!!

I didn't say only racists mock the french. In fact, mocking the french could be fair game, in my book. Mocking french soldiers behavior on the battlefield during WW2 is not the same as mocking the french. Surely you can understand that, no?

Conservative comedy, folks. Modern French government doesn't agree with Bush policies, and suddenly conservatives are ready to circle 'round and jerk over all of them, including their grandparents.

Heard any good AIDS jokes lately?

Dude, WTF? Do you really talk like this?

(#89681)

Your outrage is touching but nobody is making fun of some French private. The fact is that their military performed poorly in WWII. They had better tanks and more of them than the Germans did. Their strategic command had no talent for fighting a tactical or operational battle. Their tactical level commanders didn't (couldn't) exercise initiative. The result being that one of the most capable armies on paper was defeated in weeks.

"Modern French government doesn't agree with Bush policies"

French government policies haven't agreed with US policies since the '50s. Iraq is just the latest in a long line of disagreements that include, NATO, Indochina, Suez, Libya and Israel. You'll have to pardon me for having questioned the value of an ally that hasn't agreed with us since the '50s on which direction the bullets should fly.

"Dude. WTF?"

(#89697)

Do you really talk like that?

I wasn't talking. I don't have an automated voice transcriber. I still have to type out replies on a keyboard.

Do you think it's OK to make (gratuitous) jokes (swipes?) about allied soldiers being cowards on a battlefield during WW2?

Yes

(#89708)

Well actually, I cuss more

Jokes about soldiers from other nations don't get me fired up. We either have or will try to kill them or they have or will try to kill us at some point. I'd think the average guy would find being shot at a little more problematic than my opinion of his bravery.

OTOH, were we to have a French commenter and the jokes were made specifically to offend them I'd think it's something I'd object to. That you've decided to become offended on behalf of the French doesn't count.

I think it's ok to make fun of southerners

(#89831)

since they tried to kill us and we have killed them at one point. Make Georgia howl!

Might want to do something about all you've got bottled up.

(#89651)

Too bad there's no "conservative comedy" equivalent to Randy Roadapple. Not.

The "I didn't mean to call you a racist - I just brought it up spontaneously and for no other conceivable reason" shtick is Methuselaic.

This must have been your try at funny-ironic, though:

Mocking french soldiers behavior on the battlefield during WW2 is not the same as mocking the french.

Surely you can understand that, no? Hint: look back at who started this thread, and how.

No, I haven't heard any AIDS jokes recently, but am troubled at your suggestion that AIDS is prevalent among the French.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Again, every conservative joke is the same.

(#89672)

Same as for the ones told here.

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Is there an echo in here echo in here echo . . .

(#89683)

-o-o-

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Again:

(#89657)

Cheese-eating surrender monkey French jokes come from exactly the same place that the old 'Polack', Irish, blonde and black jokes comes from.

Has nothing to do with race. Has everything to do with a group (pick a group, any group) of people deemed properly inferior by at least a slight majority of one's audience. In the case of the last few years, the French are the go-to choice among the hyuck-hyuckers of a rightist bent. Freedom Fries? Surrender Monkeys? Cowardly WW2 soldiers?

It's no longer OK (in public) to make black jokes or gay jokes or blonde jokes or Polish jokes. Note that gay, blonde and Polish are not considered races, hence I was not calling you a racist.

But the French are still A-OK, it seems. Pure Limbaugh comedy, though of course no one here would ever admit to listening to him...

The AIDS remark was a reference to a Bird Dog 'comedy' post where HIV was part of the comedy gold.

Well, if facts are a joke, the tank retreat was one, I guess.

(#89663)

Every historical fact can be a joke by that standard.

"Pure Limbaugh comedy"? You lost me there, though I do understand why liberals who apparently listen to him wouldn't admit it here. Tell me why Randeee Rhodes is funny so I can at least understand that. I truly don't get her. I don't think much of Hillary Clinton, but calling her a whore isn't in my repertoire.

Here Portuguese and to a lesser degree, Filipino jokes are fine with their targets, who originate some of the best ones.

Say what you like, when "racist" floats up.

I guess I get the HIV thingee now, sorta. Some people have longer memories than I do, apparently.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Oh, you!

(#89680)

You prefaced the French cowardice comment with "Gratuitous aside:" This leads me to think it was meant in a humorous way. 20 or so comments later you're gonna go with the angle that you were serving it up as a plain and simple fact, with no humor intent? Now THAT is funny, at least a little.

I have never listened to Randee Rhodes for more than a couple minutes, overheard on someone's radio at work. I remember she has a strong New York accent, and that's about it. I don't ever listen to AM radio. I don't have a car, and the only way I listen to any kind of radio is NPR through a pricey iPod attachment that only gets FM. I admit I'm a stereotypical urban liberal.

I wonder if jokes about some Filipinos or Portuguese people from a generation or two back acting cowardly in a war would go over well with those good-natured folks you can joke about over there?

"Say what you like, when "racist" floats up." I don't know what you mean by this. Probably a typo.

Longer memories? The 'humor' diary I'm referring to was posted on the 1st, a little less than 2 weeks ago. HIV AIDS became prominent back in the early 80s and remains an epidemic disease that kills many men women and children every year. It's killed a couple people I knew as well. Can you remember Reagan? Then surely you can remember something about AIDS.

Gratuitous = "without apparent reason, cause, or justification"

(#89682)

"Factoid" = "a plain and simple fact." If you think I have reasons for what I post here, you're sadly mistaken.

Those "good natured people I can joke about over there" are me. And while I may not be funny, you should see some of my relatives.

Thanks for the HIV lecture. I knew none of those facts before you taught me about them.

Don't know about you, but two weeks is a long time for me to remember anything. Did UCLA finally get a finals win?

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

I doubt it

(#89430)

it wouldn't reinforce any of the preconceived notions held by the people who are inclined to dabble in such theoretical exercises. But ask them to figure out the number of babies vaporized by an A-bomb we dropped on the Japs, now that will get their juices flowing.

"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta

Way to go

(#89419)

making fun of outnumbered and overrun allied forces fighting the Nazis. I look forward to your analysis of US troops retreating under heavy fire and being overrun, I'm sure it will be hilarious.

I blame it all on the Internet

Which "allied" forces? The Vichy govt.?

(#89440)

Citing historical facts is making fun? OK. But check out the history books before you claim the French surrender was "a retreat under heavy fire. There's no evidence that the French tanks the French "retreated" from were firing at them. The French apparently thought their own tanks in retreat were the advancing German mechanized forces. The dust of battle, and the fact that the French tanks had their turrets pointing forward instead of back at the enemy they were fleeing from, may have been factors. If you know of a similar event involving US forces, you of course are free to point it out.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Your history needs work

(#89458)

since the Vichy government didn't even exist at the time. France took casualties of 90,000 dead and 200,000 injured. The idea that you consider that a topic for jest indicates just how deep your respect for allied military forces goes. I expect a diary on the comedy of Dunkirk and the thigh slapping hilarity of the invasion of Poland.

I blame it all on the Internet

Sorry, facts is facts.

(#89685)

If you want precision, the French weren't our allies in 1940, Vichy govt. or not.

EDIT: Guilt has crept up on me, to the point that I bought 1lb. of French Roast at the Coffee Bean & Tea Leaf as a karmic rebalancing act.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Your precision needs work

(#89687)

France was one of the Allied powers after the invasion of Poland. The US didn't join the Allied powers until after Pearl Harbor.

I just don't see the humor in the 90,000 dead who fought the Nazis.

I blame it all on the Internet

For the 19th time, the tank retreat was and is a **factoid**

(#89879)

Take it as angrily, humorously or personally as you like, but there it is. Getting PO'd at me won't change history.

You claim imprecision in my statement that France was not our ally in 1940, then say that the US did not join the Allies until December 1941. And the difference is?

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

"One day"

(#89288)
Jay C's picture

Sorry, Hank, but "one day" is probably never going to come. However much the low characters of the Bush 43 Adminstration might deserve a one-way trip to The Hague, the actual likelihood of any American President or Administration acquiescing to the extradtion of any former official anywhere is, on a practical level, nil.

It's the flipside of "American Exceptionalism", doncha know?

Self-righteous and self-justifying excusals of any and all actions taken with even the remotest connection to "national security" isn't, of course, a trait exclusive to Americans. However, when such rationales come from the world's only surviving "superpower" maintaining the world's largest military establishment - well, enforcement of things like "war crimes" becomes a different matter.

One can dream

(#89317)

and I'm pretty sure Pinochet never thought it would happen to him, either.

I blame it all on the Internet

Thought that was a card game.

(#89415)

-o-o--o-

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

It would require extradition...

(#89282)

Once they're indicted they won't travel. But the swing vote on the Supreme Court is an international law enthusiast... it's not inconceivable. There will be a backlash.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

The Next Administration

(#89287)

can either deal with this internally, perhaps using an American version of a Truth and Reconciliation Committee, as I suggested here, or we will end up with the spectacle of a trial in the Hague.

Does that allow me to make a citizen's arrest of Jimmy Carter?

(#89439)

-o-o--

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Oh, would you?

(#89443)

You'd be my hero. I mean, if we only get to drag one pathetic old imperialist stooge into the woodchipper of Justice... he wouldn't be my first choice, but I'll settle. Maybe we could make a double date.

On second thought, you take Bush and I'll take Carter. 43 might put up more of a fight than 39, being a younger man and all.

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

The Woodchipper of Justice?!

(#89686)

Whee. Where'd you get that one? I will plagiarize it so fast your ears will ring.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Woodchippers were on my mind

(#89724)

Sully posted something that day about a worker falling into a woodchipper. "Woodchipper of Justice" I have the dubious honor of coining, as far as I know. Take it and welcome.

The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.

Both Bush43 and Carter represent idealism gone horribly awry.

(#89445)

The first traitor I'd push into the wood chipper of history would be Ronald Reagan. Benedict Arnold only revealed the plans to West Point. Reagan would have sold them the fort, cannons, shot and powder to boot. Reagan withdraw ignominiously when our embassies were bombed and our Marine peace keepers were murdered in Lebanon.

True Believers scare the wits out of me. None of them belong in office. I sure hope Obama isn't just such a True Believer. I think McCain isn't such a bad case, but he's got some odd little True Believer quirks to him. Hillary Clinton believes in nothing but Hillary Clinton, say what you want to about her policies, I don't like her, but she's got the right stuff to be a formidable politician, unencumbered by a conscience.

"unencumbered by a conscience" in the abstract

(#90063)

is an excellent attribute because it makes for the most pragmatic, Machiavellian pols. People like that can be very effective so long as the things they do to slake their overwhelming thirst for reelection happen to be in their nations' best interests.

This is an area where the French and other European countries have us wholly outclassed, making us look like rustics in comparison. And maybe why Khrushchev was so effective.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Even Colin Powell

(#89269)

Even after Goldsmith had withdrawn the embarrassing Yoo memo.

Worse than I thought.

Jack Balkin on same. http://balkin.blogspot.com/2008/04/say-it-aint-so-colin.html