...at least in Norway. The trial of Anders Behring Breivik began yesterday and as The Forvm's only member residing in Norway (to my knowledge) I thought I would open up a thread for discussion and questions, as I may be privy to a bit more detailed information than you all are getting.
The media is all over this, though almost none of the actual testimony, so far, is being broadcast on TV which is a potential topic of debate. It looks like the later portions of the trial will be televised, at least in part. There are two reasons for this. One is for the benefit of the victims and their families. And the court is adamant that they will not become a platform for Breivik to spread propaganda. I agree with this, though it would have been fascinating in a car accident kind of way to watch him give his little speech today.
That speech was...boring. It was the same old boilerplate right wing extremist xenophobia that one can download from the net all day long if one is so inclined. And it was little different than any of the statements he has made already. He went on, far longer than he was originally given time for (Norwegian accused are normally allowed to make an opening statement but not usually to read from a prepared text. They are giving him leeway here), about what he sees as a threat to the people of Norway and Norwegian culture by Islam. Much of his supporting statistics were false or highly exaggerated. He defends his actions as basically self-defense of the Norwegian people, by taking out the future of what he sees as the premier multi-cultural supporting party.
After the lunch break today they started questioning him and the very first question was brilliant. My own translation of the live blog: You describe an unsurvivable human rights campaign against the Norwegian people. From where do you derive your "duty" or "right" to defend the Norwegian people? He described how he sees it as a human rights issue, that everyone has the right to defend themselves. But the prosecutor repeated the question: Where do YOU yourself derive this right, where did you get the mandate to defend the Norwegian people. He eventually admitted that he came upon the right himself.
The rest of today's questioning went in to his past and how he became radicalized, something that he calls himself. And this is the heart of things. Because while this trial is technically about his guilt or innocence, it is really a trial about whether he is sane enough to be sent to prison. Because there is little doubt of his guilt. He has admitted his actions (and, even worse, said his only regret is not going far enough.) and there is a mountain of evidence that he is guilty. This is about where he spends his time afterwards.
A word about that. there is much made of the maximum sentence in Norway being 21 years, and that is true. However, if a person is considered an ongoing danger to society they can basically be held indefinitely. Think of it as 21 to life. The same would happen if he were deemed not mentally capable to stand trial. He would then be sent into the care of a hospital and only released if he is no longer considered a danger to anyone. Either way he is going to be locked up forever.
Lots to talk about. I will try the best I can to keep up with any comments here, with the caveat that I am at least 6 hours ahead of you guys so response times might be long (a man's gotta sleep!). And I will try to keep the conversation going with further threads as new information comes out. Feel free to ask anything and I will try answer as best I can.
Thanks, PEW! And good to hear from you.
(#278777)Don't know if you have a sense for American mainland interest in the story, but I think the media here has been riveted...it isn't the only story, but there's a large amount of interest in the trial, sympathy for the victims, and there are many questions about ultra-right terrorism in Norway. (Is Breivik one of a kind? Even if he acted alone, how many sympathizers does he have in-country? Does he have mentors & guides, or did he formulate his violent ideology all on his own?) If part of his goal was to get attention, then he succeeded.
What's public opinion like on the story? Does Breivik get any sympathy from any quarter? Is anti-Muslim sentiment widespread in Norway, the way it is in varying ways in Germany, Britain, France & Italy? Is there an "immigrant problem" according to the man on the street?
Also, how's the family? Did you have a warm winter too? Have you been up to anything interesting?
M Aurelius was probably right.
What Jordan Says, Great to See You...
(#278779)...and your concise writing.
Let us know, as best you can how things are going for you and yours.
Best Wishes, Traveller
Quickly
(#278782)before bedtime. I'll respond in more detail tomorrow.
First, thanks as always for the warm welcome!
I really had no clue how this was playing out over there, other than it seems to be the top story on Google news. Lots of good questions, and I totally want to answer all of those as I contemplate the answers on my way to sleep this evening and tomorrow morning.
I can say though that there is an undercurrent of anti-immigrant sentiment here. It occurs much more in the countryside than in the cities where most of the new immigrants live (my daughters have friends from Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Sri Lanka, Chile and Turkey). The populist party here, FrP, is quite anti-immigrant though they pretend that they are not. Having said that, though, even those who have no use for immigrants here are horrified at what Breivik did. I've yet to meet a single person who has anything but disgust for him, and haven't seen anyone in the media even attempting to support some of his views.
If you ask your average Norwegian if there is an immigrant problem they would probably say no. The counry itself is still more than 80% ethnic Norwegian, though Oslo is about a quarter immigrants or children of immigrants. And as usual, there is a lot of misconceptions about crime. For instance, the crime rate for immigrants is higher than for Norwegians. However, the top three countries represented in the cirme statistics are Sweden, Denmark and Britain, which is not what people are assuming.
The common thought on Breivik is that, as one writer here put it, he is a mutant. That we should not blame ourselves or our society for him because he isn't really one of us. There may be other disaffected, frustrated men who think like him but they anomalies.
I want to write more tomorrow, and I will. Otherwise, we are doing great here. Mild winter, I think the kids went sledding one single time all winter. One of the things I love about living here is the travel opportunities. We were in Turkey last November and are heading to Greece in June with a trip to London in the autumn.
I resolve to hang around here more. Keep it coming and goodnight!
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
What if
(#278787)if the murdered had been immigrants, rather than white Norwegians?
We have some expat friends living in Norway who claim that Norway is the best place for our people from here - I'm not sure many Norwegians would be thrilled about that. Do you think part of the reason is Norway's fabulous economy? Would anti-immigrant sentiment grow if the economy tanked?
literally anything can become right or wrong if the dominant class of the moment so wills it
Hmmm
(#278840)I'm not sure I even want to speculate what would have happened had his targets been different. I think the reaction would be in a way worse had his victims been entirely Muslim, though it would have shifted his image from a radical nationalist to pure racist. After today's questioning he is coming off more and more like the delusional fraud and liar that he really his.
The economy is indeed fabulous here. We barely felt the latest recession. The main problem immigrants have is finding work, unless you are a builder or work in construction. But if you are a professional with good credentials (you get nowhere here without papers) there are jobs to be had, and sadly it is easier to find professional work if you are from the west and aren't too noticeably pigmented. Personally, I've always enjoyed my visits to Germany and it seems like a really nice place to live.
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
My understanding
(#278784)and I'm only getting this from a couple of friends in Norway, is that no one has ever been in fact imprisoned in Norway for their entire life.
So the 21 yr. thing may not give an entirely accurate picture of Norway's judicial sentencing, but it's nevertheless quite signfiicantly different than the US's.
I hear people speculating that this guy may be the first to spend his entire life behind bars.
I've also seen a number of calls for putting this guy to death from the US side. Curious if you're hearing similar calls over there or if that's just not on norway's radar.
no one has ever been in fact
(#278841)True. There hasn't ever been a criminal this extreme before now either.
The Norwegian criminal justice system is far different than the US, primarily in its overall mandate. It is not set up to punish but to rehabilitate and with that it does a good job. The last statistics I have seen show a reconviction rate of about 20%, which is the best in Europe. The idea is to give the offender the best possible chance to become a productive member of society.
It is safe to say that they will try to rehabilitate Breivik but he will most likely receive what is called forvaring, which translates to containment. He will be held for five years at a time if he is found to continue to be a danger to society. As he seems to be now, I seriously doubt he will ever even pretend to be other than what he is.
There are a few people I have heard that think if there ever were a case to be made for the death penalty, this is it. But most Norwegians are very much against the death penalty on principle and not very many seriously suggest it.
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
David 8, Viral Video From The Ridley Scott Movie...Prometheus
(#278829)I post it here because he reminds me of Breivik. More interestingly, all these clips from Prometheus, may not be in the movie at all.
In any case, enjoy and ponder.
Best Wishes, Traveller
Interesting
(#278842)Really interesting video, and this movie sounds fantastic!
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Not totally sure
(#278843)if I should add new diaries or just add comments to this one to bring up new testimony or news from the day. This time I will just do a comment.
The prosecutor who is leading the questions at this time, Inga Bejer Enghs, has done a brilliant job with Breivik so far. She is known for being a very friendly seeming, calm questioner who relentlessly destroys her targets. And she did that today as she slowly destroyed the vision he has of himself as some sort of important knight in this secret multinational nationalist movement which seems to only exist in Breivik's mind. She made him seem like a delusional amateur, who fancied himself important but only in his own mind.
Breivik himself made some interesting statement. He repeated his claim that there are two other one man terrorist cells in Norway and that they could strike at any time. And he said that a sentence of death would be preferable to a pathetic punishment of 21 years. He also apparently looks up to al Qaeda for the success, though not their aims. He's kind of digging his own grave at this point.
I had more to add but I got totally sidetracked by Chelsea beating Barcelona in a semi-final match of the Champions League. More later I guess!
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Boo Chelsea!
(#278844)I was hanging out with a Spanish guy and it was hard to watch Barcelona go down.
From your descriptions it seems that the prosecutors aren't content to merely convict Breivik, but wish to refute him as well.
Norway's response has been moving
(#279590)"Some 40,000 people, according to police, massed in the rain at a square near the courthouse where Breivik is on trial for his July 22 attacks that killed 77 people, to sing "Children of the Rainbow" by Norwegian folk singer Lillebjoern Nilsen. ... Last Friday, Breivik had said that Nilsen had infiltrated the cultural scene and that his song was typical of the "brainwashing of Norwegian pupils."
http://www.leaderpost.com/news/Some+Norwegians+gather+sing+song+Anders+B...
Breivik apparently hates the song for its message of unity among diverse peoples. Watching 40k people with roses singing the song is quite something.
The chorus:
Together, we will live,
each sister and each brother,
small children of the rainbow and a green earth
catchy, you neglected to mention these immortal lines:
(#279600)One blue sky above us
One ocean lapping all our shores
One Earth so green and round
Who could ask for more?
I am reminded of Oscar Wilde's notorious comment on the death of little Nell: you'd have to have a heart of stone not to laugh.
.Divine Spinoza, forgive me. I have become a fool.
Its not a twisted and vicious world for rich white men
(#279630)I'll grant you that.
So are you laughing at cant, or incongruity, or the impossibility of genuine empathy?
literally anything can become right or wrong if the dominant class of the moment so wills it
It's a children's song
(#279633)It's pretty silly to be all sophisticated and laugh at it.
I don't pat myself on the back for being all above Barney or Saturday morning cartoons.
I think it's a misplaced reaction to a nice show of solidarity by the norwegians.
It's because they don't recognize the danger
(#279634)of the dusky hordes coming to destroy white christiandom.
I blame it all on the Internet
Oh, sure it is...
(#281098)...eventually.
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
What's the story about
(#279631)the psychiatric condition?
literally anything can become right or wrong if the dominant class of the moment so wills it
Is he being considered a terrorist?
(#279782)Or are they treating him as a mass murderer?
To me it is clear he is a terrorist; his aim was without question political.
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.
Got really busy this week
(#280189)They are treating him as both, actually. He definitely has a political motive and a very warped sense of morality and the necessity of his actions, according to himself. In that sense, they are working very hard to reveal the fact that they have no evidence of a terrorist network he was involved in, no evidence of him being a "cell commander." As far as the evidence shows, he was a lone crank, who invented a terrorist network for his own self importance to justify his actions as a necessary reaction to what he sees as a war.
At the same time, they are laying bare the gruesome nature of his actions which is leading to the conclusion that, even if he is found sane enough to imprison, there is something fundamentally wrong with someone who can slaughter that many people individually. Anyone who can train themselves to shut down their emotions enough to shoot and kill 69 screaming, pleading teenagers has a serious screw loose.
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
If he's a psychopath, no training would be required
(#280207)Psychopaths don't feel empathy even as young children, they learn to mimick it as they grow older so as not to stand out.
Some estimates in the US have it that around .5% of the pop are psychopaths and account for nearly 30 - 40% of all violent crime.
I read a book recently
(#281097)"The Psycopath Test". I've been meaning to do a diary. About 1% are thought to be psychopaths. What is interesting is that the book also deals with "high functioning" psycopaths, such as Sunbean CEO Abert Dunlap. It looks like serial killers and mass murderers are merely one type of psycopath. The other type might be running the company you work for, or for Congress.
I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.