The Army way.


This essay is from the redesigned and relaunched joshua.trevino.at -- where the former Tacitus is at now.

The Army is shutting down its bloggers. It is a minor move, but a telling one: the Army of the American people does not wish its soldiers to communicate, unmediated, with that people. The appeal is made to operational security, but this is at best a thin excuse for an institutional reflex that has everything to do with bureaucratic self-protection, and little to do with winning the war. The best spokesmen for the war are the soldiers fighting it: is the Army truly better off for having suppressed the tremendous battle reportage of SPC Colby Buzzell? Surely not. Is American support for the war more likely to be bolstered by a slick PAO than an earnest 11B? Certainly not. Small things tell of big things, and the big thing here is not the Army versus its bloggers -- a fight the Army will lose in time -- but the Army's willingness to shut down an entire medium of communication, information, and support between its warfighters and the American people. After a generation of increasing alienation between the Army and America, that medium is desperately needed by both.

But the Army has shut it down, and the Army will not reconsider. I was never an Army blogger -- but I did, back when the internet was still mostly novelty, once keep online a small page of quotes from my Army service, for the amusement of friends. Imagine my surprise, in the pre-Google era, when the battalion commander learned of it, and took swift action to bring it down. I complied -- what else could I do? -- but the offline listing survives.


“See, if you look in the OPORD book, you'll see that it's all left-justified. Nothing is indented.”
“But that makes it impossible to read.”
“But that's the right way.”
“But that's the hard way....”
“That's the Army way!”
-- CPT Duncan, explaining the Army way to 2LT Trevino, c.1998

Among the last things the United States Army as an institution may be accused of is possession of an agile, risk-taking bureaucracy. The world's most potent fighting force is saddled with a famously self-protective, unresponsive, and inefficient internal management structure whose core mission is not the furtherance of the nation's goals, but the protection of its own interests. This unoriginal observation is not exactly a reflection of the individual warfighter (a minority of all serving soldiers in any case), so much as it is a logical perversion of his ethos. The values and habits that win in battle are ill-suited to management and execution in a large bureaucracy. This flies in the face of the conventional wisdom that holds that hiring a former military officer is a wise move: as I found to my dismay upon entering civilian life, the weird combination of low-level decisiveness and excessive deference to the authority of procedure that is the hallmark of Army leadership style is a terrible combination in an American white-collar culture that prizes its own weird combination of low-level indecisiveness and workplace informality. CPT Duncan, who explained the Army way to me nearly a decade ago, was a credit to the Army, a fine officer and an engineer leader of ruthless efficiency in the field. He also adhered, without apparent consciousness of absurdity, to the consequences of his warrior ethic in the realm of desks and offices: unreadable operations orders among them. This is not to critique the warrior ethic -- there's a good reason for its emphasis on rote, reflex, and simplifying procedure above all, as anyone who has emplaced a Claymore mine can attest. The number of soldiers and cadets who regard FRONT TOWARD ENEMY as a mere friendly reminder is either a foreshadowing of the fall of the republic, or a spur toward a Kierkegaardian exercise in forgetting.


“When the nation needs something done, what does it do? It puts a soldier on the ground, and he looks [the other guy] in the eye and says, ‘If you don’t do this, I’m going to kill you.’ And they believe him!”
-- LTC Vosler to EOBC Class 504-97, c.1997

“Your first, primary and utmost mission is to blow up everything you can get your hands on!”
-- SFC Taylor to EOBC Class 504-97, c.1997

But it is a complex world yet, and the Army must exist within it. Regrettably, it appears to institutionally shun that which does not directly pertain to its core missions as laid forth with admirable clarity by LTC Vosler and SFC Taylor to my Engineer Officer Basic class at Fort Leonard Wood so long ago. The failure of the Iraqi occupation is rightly laid at the feet of the Bush Administration, but it must be remembered that this failure was immeasurably aided and magnified by an Army that did not possess the institutional courage to advance its professional judgment -- particularly on force levels -- in the public square; and worse, labored for a full generation under the delusion that if it failed to prepare for counterinsurgency, it would therefore never face an insurgency. The Army tried to game the American political system, and failed. Failures happen, but it never should have attempted the experiment in the first place. In preparing for the wars it wanted to fight, it ignored the wars it had. Thus it had no ideas for Lebanon; thus it could offer no meaningful plan for Somalia; thus it dodged a bullet when Bosnia proved too exhausted to be troublesome; thus it decided to simply stand back, in the name of “force protection,” as Kosovo was ethically cleansed under its occupation; and thus it was baffled and bludgeoning when Iraq descended into horror.

This is not, then, for all the plaudits given it, an Army whose leadership well serves its fighting men. Certainly those men are well-equipped, certainly they have lavish facilities, certainly their training (at least prior to this decade of stress) is top-notch, and certainly they have resources from weaponry to medical care beyond that of any other army in history. But for all this, they lack the one thing that soldiers need above all else: the means and will to win their wars. In this, the Army appears to have internalized the valuations of the modern liberal state, in which passé concepts like “honor” and “victory” are secondary to material comforts. The United States Army was born at Valley Forge, but its stupendous logistical system now will ensure that there are no more Valley Forges -- and if there are, the Army will tell itself that perhaps we shouldn't fight that sort of war any more, and perhaps we can guarantee we don't if we just refuse to prepare for it....


“The Army reflects the highest ideals of the nation it represents -- a nation built on a unique set of values and aspirations expressed in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution ... The Army serves as a repository of its national values and embeds them into its professional ethos. Proper subordination to political authority, loyalty, duty, selfless service, courage, integrity, respect for human dignity, and a sense of justice are all part of the Army’s identity.”
-- Army Field Manual 100-5, Operations, page 1-2

“Hey, you lose your First Amendment rights when you join the Army.”
-- CPT Milner to 2LT Trevino, c.1996

My consistent experience through my life, and through my own abbreviated service, is that the Army refuses to acknowledge that it exists within American society and must reflect it. It does not merely seek to thwart the political choices of war and battle that are rightly within the power of that society: it also sees itself as increasingly separate from, and apt to be betrayed by, that society. This is as much to the society's discredit as the Army's: America at large chose a generation ago to cede the Army to a self-selecting class of warriors, and America at large consistently, if often inadvertently, reinforces the Army's sense of mistrust toward it. Relations between the two are reminiscent of Athens and Sparta. The Athenians admire the warrior ethic of the Spartans, and feel vague gratitude that Hellas may call on their ranks, even as they have no desire to be Spartans; and the Spartans do their utmost to beat Athenian qualities out of their initiates and young. But there the parallel breaks down: Spartans did not see themselves as the paradoxical embodiments of “the highest ideals of the [Athenian] nation.” The United States Army explicitly does -- and when the nation's ideals differ from the Army's, it is therefore because the nation is not living up to its “highest ideals” that the Army continues to reflect. The long-term danger to a republic that this situation represents is familiar to any student of history. It is, though, a danger that the republic will ignore as long as it possibly can.


APPLY THE ETHICAL DECISIONMAKING PROCESS
03-9001.10-0003 August 1990

Conditions
You must make an individual ethical decision.

Standards
Apply the ethical decision-making process to resolve an individual ethical dilemma following the proper sequence.

Performance Measures
1. Interpret the situation. Is there an ethical dilemma? If so, what is it?
2. Analyze the factors and forces that relate to the dilemma. Include --

a. Laws, orders and regulations.
b. National values.
c. Traditional Army values.
d. Unit operating values.
e. Your values.
f. Institutional pressures.

3. Choose the course of action which best serves the nation.
4. Implement the course of action you have chosen.

-- STP 21-II-MQS: Military Qualifications Standards II for Lieutenants and Captains

Here then is the procedure for ordinary moral sensibility in the Army context. It would be comical but for the centuries of philosophers who have indulged in similar reductionist lists and process-buiding exercises. In that light, we may congratulate the Army for having satisfied itself with something definitive in the realm of right living. We may also hope that the Army applies this very process to the question of its own identity, in the end choosing “the course of action which best serves the nation,” rather than that which best serves the Army. As we face the probability that we will, within the next few years, lose another major American war more or less through societal choice, it becomes tremendously important to look to the effects that this will have on the United States Army and its relationship with the nation. The previous lost war severed the real and compelling ties between every American male and military service, and alienated our warrior class from the cultural mainstream. It is realistic to assume a deepening of this alienation in the aftermath of a defeat in Iraq. This is not to question the judgment of the American consensus on the present war, or the rightness of the resultant resentment -- these are separate questions -- but simply to note the probability. America needs an Army that identifies with America as it is, not as the Army wishes it to be. The two ought to work to deserve one another: but if they will not, it is the Army that must bend.

It is a long way from Army blog policy to this, but they are all of a piece. I know a woman who recently returned from Afghanistan with a Bronze Star. Some Taliban tried to take hostages, and she did her bit in the rescue. We spoke, and I told her of my desultory attempts to reenter the service. Her response: “Why?” She, a respected veteran of something as close to a “good war” as we'll get in this generation, does not see a particular reason to go. If the break between Army and America is neither final nor irrevocable in the grand scheme, it is already distressingly advanced for some of our finest, who fight and suffer on our behalf.

--

--

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Value divide (#42371)
by catchy

Don't know if people saw this Pentagon report re: reported ethics of troops in Iraq:

-- 1/3rd support torture if "it helps gather important information about insurgents"

-- 2/5ths if "it would save the life of a fellow soldier."

This support is higher than the pop. generally.

-- 2/3rds of Marines and 1/2 of Army "would not report a team member for mistreating a civilian or for destroying civilian property unnecessarily".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/04/AR2007050402151.html?hpid=topnews

Generally, it's been my impression... (#42564)
by Darth Cuddly

...that folks who deal with a thing have a different take on it than the general public.

I'm actually surprised at the 40% would commit torture to save a fellow Soldier. I thought it would be higher. I think it would be higher than that for the general public too, with the caveat in both cases that there's certainty in the result. I suppose there's some room to play with definitions as well. I think there'd be near universal acceptance in breaking a person's finger to save a comrade's life but as the torture got worse the level of rejection would approach near universal.

--

It's not only redundant, it's also repetitive

Speaking of the army way... (#42368)
by Aaron

Not directly related to the free speech issue, but lately in my IR seminar we've been reading through several working papers (including one written by an army guy in the seminar) about the organizational culture ("norms") of the military and how they affect civilian casualties and such. It's really quite fascinating stuff, kind of on the edge of political science from the perspective of my department (which is more quantitative), though the one that my friend is working on is using a logistic regression to estimate how congress critters will vote on military resolutions based on their veteran status.

The gist seems to be that we're doing better (e.g. killing less civilians) in this war than we have in previous ones, mainly because we're trying to be somewhat more targeted (rather than massive air campaign/scorched earth approaches). However, the camaraderie and internal loyalty of the troops themselves is such that, if their lives or their buddies lives are threatened, they will adopt more aggressive strategies (and understandably so). So, on the macro we're perhaps "doing better" than critics say, but if you ask on the micro (as a recent survey did, forget the specific reference right this moment...) you'll get soldiers saying that they have and will continue to ignore rules when they're actually on the field.

--

Because not all academics live in ivory towers.

At the risk of being repetitive (#42326)
by MaxSchrek

the war or whatever you call it in Iraq is lost
nothing good will come of this mess now. After a
four year struggle the electricity does not work
the swerage runs in the streets and the road to
Baghdad airport is still lethal.

For the coallition its over bar the allocation
of blame and a tail end of dead and crippled service
personnel, for the Iraqis the damage will last decades
and claim many more victims.

I see you've chosen the public to blame - which makes
a small change from the democrats, the neo-cons or the
French.

--

Its just a model, you wouldn't want to bank on it.

Just a question. (#42238)
by catchy

When you write: but if they will not, it is the Army that must bend.

do you mean 'must' as in 'ought', or as in 'will'?

I.e. are you making a prescription or prediction?

Prescription. (nt) (#42257)
by tacitus

nt, nt.

Besides allowing blogging (#42270)
by catchy

did you have anything specific in mind?

Shifting the blame... (#42198)
by M Aurelius

As we face the probability that we will, within the next few years, lose another major American war more or less through societal choice, it becomes tremendously important to look to the effects that this will have on the United States Army and its relationship with the nation.

No, we face the probability that we will lose a mid-sized war through incompetence, corruption, and ideological rigidity, not necessarily in that order, and for the most part not in the Army.

This isn't about timidity on the part of the American people; it is about reaching, passing, the limit beyond which they are willing to accept bad checks for good, fraud for patriotism.

I can't help but recall how Hitler blamed the German people for losing World War II. They were too soft, too weak, even treacherous, he said.

Blame, blame, blame. The right always needs someone to blame when their war-worship faux-nationalism festivals turn to crap, as they inexorably must.

Blame your own. Do not dare blame the nation they have so badly misled.

--

Holographic Foam Cosmology. Improved! With bigger bubbles!

Can we end this subthread already? (#42234)
by Jordan

There's a lot more to Tacitus' essay than this Godwin junk you guys are bantering about. Even the 'Blame Americans First' remarks are secondary to the actual point of the piece (which is that the Army is becoming further estranged from American culture).

--

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire

See #42125 (#42269)
by HankP

I just don't see the alienation from the civilian side.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Heh, we disagree on that. (#42263)
by Punditus Maximus

I think that this discussion is at the heart of the piece, personally.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

not by my read, PM. (#42264)
by catchy

Heh, get more familiar with the oevre (#42333)
by Punditus Maximus

Imperialistic fantasies thwarted by the dolchstosslegende are at the heart of every piece, every comment, every time.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Not this one. (#42350)
by catchy

Tacitus was nice enough to post something whose main focus was the split between the army and the rest of society and not who was to blame for the split.

Treating this as a piece of dolchstosslegende propoganda ain't accurate and is particularly uncharitable the first time Tac shows up to post.

"Particularly"? (#42360)
by M Scott Eiland

Not really--I'm sure Tac will grade on the appropriate curve and give the comment in question a gentleman's "C" in terms of uncharitableness and general incoherence.

--

Generous indeed (#42390)
by Chuchundra

Considering that uncharitableness and general incoherence are Tac's particular specialties.

--

Guard, protect and cherish your land, for there is no afterlife for a place that started out as Heaven.

Rubbish (#42470)
by Inigo

Granted, he's not always charitable, though this posture is perhaps understandable given the personally-insulting dreck so often hurled his way. But he cannot credibly be accused of incoherence. That his is a vision of the world you do not understand or endorse hardly constitutes proof of its incoherence.

--

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

Nor mine (#42267)
by brendanm98

Sometimes I wonder whether people (myself included, natch) don't go out of their way to pick quarrels and incite argument. Although to be fair Tac has a unique talent for inspiring liberals to focus on the presentation rather than the substance of his pieces.

--

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

You can't help but recall Hitler. (#42225)
by tacitus

I know. In a nutshell, that's why I don't reach out to the left any more. Bad enough that it claims reality; why engage those who think you Nazi?

If I thought you were a Nazi... (#42320)
by M Aurelius

...I'd ban you, per your own well-considered rules.

Actually, I respect you. So I'm doing you a favor by pointing out that by blaming the led for the failures of the leaders, you travel a well-worn path. Trodden by people you detest.

I'm hoping you will part their company and place the blame where it lies.

Forget the Nazis. The commies did the same thing. Economic failure was explained by people not being socialist enough. A "new man", devoid of self-interest or just about any natural instinct at all, had to be developed. It wasn't the system, it was the people.

Like I said, a well-worn path.

--

Holographic Foam Cosmology. Improved! With bigger bubbles!

Then why are you here? (#42231)
by Punditus Maximus

The stated purpose of this site includes promoting some kind of cross-ideological dialogue; if you are not here to engage, are you here for the purpose of shutting down the dialogue?

I mean, yeah, you've made clear that you're an imperialist who is into the dolchstosslegende mode of thinking. But there are plenty of other places for you to do that, ones that even pay.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Please . . . (#42232)
by Inigo

Didn't you go on a binge not long ago of responding to a series of Luis' posts with one word: "dolchstosslegende"? That -- to accuse Luis of thinking like a frustrated Nazi -- is an example of cross-ideological dialogue?

--

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

As I recall (#42237)
by Bill White

Luis accepted the essence of PM's comment as being accurate.

Luis in fact does believe that the American Left stabs our nation in the back.

Our tolerance of his right to say that should grant us considerable leeway in return if maintained within the general bounds of civil posting.

= = =

I am reminded of the Marxian comment about tragedy and farce.

To accuse "the Jews" of stabbing the German Fatherland in the back was indeed tragedy inflicted by Nazi monsters for their own propaganda purposes. To accuse a liberal American majority (Congress) of the same is absurd, hence farce.

Kinda like the dog that actually caught the bus, accusing mainstream America of treachery strikes me as a losing proposition for the GOP.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

very well said (#42325)
by heet

nt

--

Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen

Not just Luis's, (#42235)
by Punditus Maximus

and the dolchstosslegende was not a Nazi phenomenon; it predated them by ten years, as it was a general German concept following WWI. That's kind of my point, that by consistently advocating for that particular point of view, one lays groundwork for a particular approach to politics.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

It's a Term (#42239)
by Inigo

that carries a great deal of collateral baggage. Though I'm no mind-reader, it's not a great leap to suspect that one who uses the term may intend to invoke that baggage as much as the substance. Moreover, to fliply dismiss as "dolchstosslegende" the observation that political pronouncements declaiming our defeat and demanding our withdrawal can be expected to embolden our enemies -- something that seems apolitically obvious to me -- seems to be an evasion of the issue.

--

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

It's not an evasion. (#42244)
by Punditus Maximus

It's an expression of contempt for the position, due to the historical context of others espousing the same position.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

The relationship between Iraq (#42242)
by Bill White

and the War on Terror needs a clear sighted discussion.

Godwin notwithstanding, I hear arguments that "losing Iraq" cannot be permitted and I am reminded of the insistence that Stalingrad not be evacuated.

We need to discuss (calmly and without catcalls of "Defeat-o-crat") whether our continuing presence in Iraq is proving beneficial to the long term interests of both Iran and al Qaeda.

Can we do that?

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

We certainly can (#42288)
by Timmy

you should begin by laying out the scenario, how our exit isn't viewed as win by AQ and the Iranian fascists.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

AQ tells us that our leaving is a win for them (#42347)
by Bill White

BECAUSE they want us to stay, indefinitely. AQ is very good at making crafty lies.

Timmy, why do you allow yourself to be played like a pawn by Osama bin Laden? AQ uses some "Reverse Psychology 101" -- "if USA leaves Iraq, AQ wins" -- and you buy into it hook, line and sinker.

Why?

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

This seems to me why (#42392)
by hobbesist

- with respect to the influence they should have on our Iraq policy - AQ's statements, rhetoric & propaganda amount to a beetle in the box.

--

Bene vixit, bene qui latuit

AQ wins if we stay or if we go. (#42395)
by Jordan

If we stay, they get to bleed us indefinitely. If we go, they get to declare Afghanistan II, their tactics are legitimized as the lingua franca of modern politics, and they get a nice big rogue state to build new training & propaganda centers.

--

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire

We definitely agree on that. (#42437)
by Punditus Maximus

And I hate the Bush Administration for handing this victory to Al Qaeda.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Same here. -nt- (#42482)
by Jordan

.

--

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire

How our exit is viewed... (#42332)
by Punditus Maximus

...by reality-denying thugs and fools is not particularly important. Relevant domestically and internationally.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Yes, it's true. (#42321)
by M Aurelius

Yet exit we must, sooner or later.

So you should begin by explaining why you supported the buffoon in chief who boxed us in like this.

I always said invading Iraq was a gift to AQ. I'm glad you are finally figuring it out.

--

Holographic Foam Cosmology. Improved! With bigger bubbles!

What do They Win? (#42291)
by Harley

Parting gifts? The board game version of this catastrophe? How about a gold watch?

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

Well, territory to begin with (#42294)
by Timmy

you do understand that Iraq is a crossroads. BTA maybe not.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

Both Baath and Shia will exterminate (#42349)
by Bill White

al Qaeda quickly enough just as soon as AQ ceases to be useful in fighting Uncle Sam.

bin Laden hates the Shia as much or more than the West (we are mere infidels while the Shia are apostates). Iraqis speak the local languages while we do not. Once we leave AQ shall be rapidly exterminated.

That said, many Sunni and Baath will also be killed and therefore our leaving must be done in a careful and prudent fashion.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

So You *Don't* Know (#42298)
by Harley

And that's really the problem. We've got a lot of people assuming catastrophic outcomes from any kind of withdrawl at any time. It's worth noting that these are largely the same people who hopelessly screwed up this war in the first place, or supported it without any idea where it would lead (or, more accurately, were completely wrong as to where it has led)...

So I dunno. I'm less than convinced.

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

And your outcome is? (#42309)
by Timmy

Now don't be shy!

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

The outcome is a mess (#42318)
by HankP

only slightly better than the mess we are in now. Thank Bush for getting us into the no-win situation.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

You know (#42226)
by HankP

there are plenty of other comments to this diary that are by liberals and don't mention Nazis. To cherry pick one and extend that to the entire left seems disingenuous at best. There may be reasons why you don't want to discuss issues with liberals but this seems like more of an excuse than a reason.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

That's fine. (#42227)
by tacitus

Do all liberals do this? No. Does engagement with a group of liberals almost invariably end up at this point? Yes.

Sorry, but I thought much more kindly about the American left before I interacted with its members with some regularity.

Cop out.... (#42323)
by M Aurelius

I didn't call you a Nazi and you know it. You are avoiding the real problem, and the real problem is that facing monumentally bad leadership, you choose to blame society at large, the American people, for the failure that is now at hand.

If you've got an ideology that needs the people of the country as a scapegoat, you really ought to re-examine your assumptions. When the left does likewise, the right gives us all kinds of flak about how elitist we are, how we think the American people are dumb, and so forth. So why should you get a free pass?

--

Holographic Foam Cosmology. Improved! With bigger bubbles!

Funny (#42268)
by HankP

I feel the same way about the American right. I'm regularly accused of wanting the US to fail and of rooting for its enemies. Whatever. I give comments like that the attention they deserve, which is little to none. They do sidetrack substantive argument, though.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

In Fairness... (#42230)
by Harley

Isn't the point less about Hitler and more about the need and desire to blame others rather than take responsiblity for failure? (Not to mention that this part of your argument seems founded on hyperbole as much or more than an accurate assessment of events and probable outcomes.)

--

To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard

But Doesn't Fairness Also Require (#42233)
by Inigo

some objective discussion of the real-world effect that Democratic political posturing has on the objectives and tactics of our enemies? While I wouldn't quite agree with Tacitus that our loss here is a matter of "societal choice," I find it entirely plausible -- even obvious -- that persistent Democratic pandering to the "just quit now" crowd will have immediate impacts on the ground. To say that this observation simply "reminds you of Hitler" is to be every bit as irresponsible as those who refuse to acknowledge the administration's depressingly lengthy catalogue of failures.

--

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

Not really... (#42324)
by M Aurelius

Between the invasion in early 2003 and the 2006 elections in November, three and a half years passed. Through this time, and with full control over Congress, and control over the media that would have made LBJ envious, all Iraq did was sink further into chaos.

The "quit now" Democratic routine is a recent phenomenon. It was a fringe element during the 2004 campaign. Not even Dean advocated it (he was for internationalization).

Lots of things have impact on the ground. Firing 400,000 Iraqi soldiers had an impact on the ground. Overpriced, poorly built and dreadfully managed infrastructure has an impact on the ground. Thousands of checkpoint killings of innocents had an impact on the ground. Torture photos had an impact on the ground.

But those must be trifles; in reality Dennis Kucinich was the problem all along.

Give me a friggin' break.

--

Holographic Foam Cosmology. Improved! With bigger bubbles!

I'd Give You Your (#42469)
by Inigo

friggin' break if your comment represented an honest summary of mine, but it doesn't. Nowhere do I say that the things you describe are "trifles." If you've read anything else I've written, you would know that I do not think that at all.

I do, however, think that elected officials who knowingly make politically-motivated remarks that dovetail with the propaganda objectives of our enemies deserve contempt. If one has an interest in acting responsibly (and, sadly, Ms. Pelosi gives no indication that she does), it is possible to pursue opposition policy objectives without feeding lines to the enemy.

--

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

Are you willing to accept a two way street? (#42236)
by Bill White

Defeat-o-crats is a willful branding strategy based upon misrepresenting the positions of Democratic leaders.

If we are to discuss that, we also need to open the doors to blunt discussion of Karl Rove's domestic strategy of using the Iraq war to forge a permanent Republican majority by branding the Left as traitors.

A failure to acknowledge this branding campaign is itself irresponsible as it merely deepens the divide.

Pendelums swing and by pushing the pendelum very hard to the Right, Karl Rove will cause it to swing too far back to the Left. But the blame for that lies with the GOP spin-meisters.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

I Loathe Politics (#42241)
by Inigo

in every direction and dimension. So if you're asking me, yes, I certainly would accept your two-way street.

But I have to confess to nurturing a particularly intense degree of contempt for those who, understanding that everything they say will be immediately assimilated into a strategy designed to harm us and our men and women on the ground, trumpet our defeat, and demand our immediate withdrawal, as a way of achieving near-term political advantage. At present, those people are Democrats. Under a different set of facts, they could be Republicans, and my feelings would be the same. Crap is crap.

--

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

As for myself (#42245)
by Bill White

I assert that our continuing occupation of Iraq is giving massive amounts of aid and comfort to bin Laden and al Qaeda.

Are you familiar with the "Chess versus Go" analysis of the Vietnam war?

Anyways, this piece is reasonably accurate, IMO:

This is why the Iraq war, so far, must be seen as a huge al Qaeda propaganda victory. Their narrative is that Muslims are under siege by an evil, imperialist, infidel army that tortures and abuses Muslims at will. Before Iraq, this was an absurdity. After Iraq, less so. Iraq has helped sustain al Qaeda's narrative with imagery and violence that will always stain the image of America in the Middle East. Yes, the paranoia of the Arab street would have invented such atrocities even if they didn't exist. But they did exist and continue to exist. The images of Abu Ghraib did not shock Iraqis used to far worse horrors under Saddam. But they did help educate Arabs and Muslims across the world into believing the very worst about U.S. intentions. Because this war is a war of ideas and ideals, this matters a huge amount. Our one massive advantage - that we are a free and decent civilization - has been fatally blurred.

Our "war" with radical Islam is a war of narratives and our narrative should be able to crush their narrative without breaking a sweat, but for the incompetence and hubris of our leaders and their desire to harness this war for domestic political gain.

How to defeat the Islamic nut-jobs? I quote the Roman Tacitus:

It is less difficult to bear misfortunes than to remain uncorrupted by pleasure.

To supply a faith premised on martyrdom with martyrs serves their interests, not ours. Flood Iran with the fruits of Western culture and Islam-ism as a mass movement shall dissolve.

bin Laden saw this and sees western secular society as a threat. Therefore he goads us into becoming an occupier.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

I Now Believe (#42254)
by Inigo

that this war never should have been commenced. Iraq was too profoundly broken in every meaningful respect to have ever been "fixed" in the way we had in mind, and our great, unforgivable failure was in refusing to do, in advance, the hard thinking necessary to understand this reality. This "country" (using the term loosely) was not capable of anything like what we would recognize as democratic self-governance, and I do not think it will achieve that capability in our lifetime. It was an absolute, unspeakable wreck of a place, and that we were surprised by that reality is unimaginable to me.

But our failure has produced a depressing predicament. If we simply leave, it will, both in fact and for propaganda purposes, constitute our having suffered a defeat at the hands of an amalgam of forces, including radical Islam. If we stay, but ultimately leave on our own terms and after having constructed some sort of edifice that will survive our departure (and contribute to the spread of Western culture in the region), then something slightly positive might be achieved. But that the latter can happen only with more American blood and treasure, and perhaps a lot more, is the tragedy that I hope Bush and the rest of them wear around their necks for the rest of their lives.

--

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

Expressed in these terms (#42279)
by Bill White

I can support staying with the intention of figuring out the least damaging method for reducing our involvement.

However, any stable Iraqi end-game (with respect to US involvement) will require at least some level of understanding and agreement with Syria, Iran, Turkey and Saudi Arabia.

= = =

For what it is worth, I have argued at Daily Kos that it is simply not feasible to withdraw in less than a year's time and that to attempt otherwise would reprise Dunkirk (or the "British are routed from Afghanistan" tales Traveller has recounted) which I find utterly and completely unacceptable.

As few loonie-tunes try and shout me down but usually I have gotten a reluctant acceptance of reality.

It is also my sense that Bush-ian intransigence causes much of the more vocal "cut-n-run' rhetoric from the loony left than would be heard if Barack Obama were President, for example. If Obama says in Janaury 2009 "We need some time to extricate ourselves in a prudent fashion, but we ARE leaving" I believe he would be given that time. And leaving need not include withdrawl of airmobile infantry stationed just over the horizon.

Hillary? Many on the far left believe she has been granted a junior associate membership in the Carlyle Group.

Anyway, following Jim Webb's lead, even a rhetorical declaration that we intend to leave, as soon as can be done safely and practically, combined with a slow, careful and deliberate process with the maintenance of airmobile strike forces just over the horison would do much to calm domestic waters.

But then we come back to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria and Turkey.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Near-term political advantage? (#42243)
by Punditus Maximus

That's bizarre -- firstly, the Democratic leadership consistently advocates for a phased withdrawal over the next year or so. Secondly, those of us who are calling for an immediate withdrawal are espousing an unpopular position out of principle, not seeking any sort of immediate gain.

The trick to having an open mind is to not leave it so open that your brains fall out. The fact that the Republican leadership used the Iraq war from the beginning as a political tool does not imply that the Democratic leadership must be doing the same thing now.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Immediate withdrawal would mean carnage in Iraq, (#42258)
by Jordan

as near certainly as one can be about anything over there. What kind of principle is that?

--

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire

Separate discussion. (#42260)
by Punditus Maximus

Could we move it to another diary or such? That's a whole other thing.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

I made a new diary. -nt- (#42275)
by Jordan

.

--

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire

So When the Republicans (#42248)
by Inigo

do what they do, they do it out of political venality. But when Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi do what they do, they're unsullied by mere politics, and act from principle and a carefully-calibrated judgment about what best serves the needs and interests of the Republic? Oh, my.

The Bush administration screwed this thing up in a truly epic way, and the Democrats will do everything possible to extract maximum near- and long-term domestic political benefit from that reality. And if that effort results in increased risk to some number of folks from a red state now doing our bidding in Iraq . . . well, you can't convince me that Nancy Pelosi cares any more about that than Dick Cheney does.

--

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

Not "the Republicans..." (#42253)
by Punditus Maximus

President Bush, Vice-President Cheney, their leadership team (including Donald Rumsfeld, Condoleeza Rice, and Paul Wolfowitz), and the then-leadership in Congress, with an honorable mention to the rest of the rubber-stamp Congress.

Let's put it this way -- there's a reason why so many former Republican leaders are currently being indicted on corruption charges. It's because they're corrupt.

As for the fact that I can't convince you that Nancy Pelosi cares about her responsibilities as Speaker of the House toward the entire nation, then why are we even talking about policy or anything, ever? If our entire political leadership class is utterly corrupt, in both parties, without exception, then isn't that the all-consuming issue which needs to be discussed?

The Democratic leadership has a responsibility to those who supported them with their time, talent, and treasure to ethically pursue political gain which will allow them to implement the policies which they have promised to implement. I feel you're eliding the "ethical" part and pretending that Pelosi has the same foul moral character as those who deliberately politicized the Justice Department without any evidence to support the assertion.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

Policy (#42262)
by Inigo

and politicians are different things. Sadly, we've no choice but to rely upon politicians to implement policy, and that's where things go south. Churchill's observation about democracy being the least-fubar'd system known to man, but fubar'd nonetheless, comes to mind (I'm too lazy to Google the quote itself).

Here's where I come down -- anyone who invests any part of themselves in a belief in the innate integrity of politics, political systems or particular politicians (as distinguished from a tentative trust in the wisdom of our system of checks and balances) is a sap. There are pure things in this world, but you're not going to find them within a country mile of a political setting.

--

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

Churchill says it's the worst form of government, (#42271)
by Jordan

except for all the others.

--

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire

Admit that for the past 5 years (#42252)
by Bill White

the War on Terror has been conducted in the spirit of political venality and I shall agree that Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi are themselves venal politicians of similar stripe.

Agreed?

Anyway, this is why we must steadfastly renounce the unitary executive and embrace checks and balance. Because ALL politicians are venal.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Admitted, (#42266)
by Inigo

albeit with a side understanding -- that there is something out there that is not a mere political hobgoblin, and it consists of the very real threat posed by radical Islamism. If I read you correctly, you should have no problem with that, though some others might.

--

That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.

Sure thing . . . (#42281)
by Bill White

I was outraged by the Taliban blowing up Buddhas in Afghanistan well before 9/11 and even pre-9/11 I had a visceral desire to send in the US Marines to stop such behavior.

Prudence would counsel otherwise but I wanted us to do it.


And I have long believed
Saddam removal was merely seen as a means to a greater objective unrelated to the War on radical Islam. As I quoted from Times Online article in October 2002:

The terrorist should be treated as a criminal. The tank of envy in which he swims should be drained, not filled with the "blood of martyrs". Americans should show the confidence of the powerful, not the trigger-happy jumpiness of the vulnerable. Westerners may be hurt by al-Qaeda, but the West is not threatened. Those who flaunt their wealth to the world must expect occasional stabs of resentment.

True then and true now:

Americans should show the confidence of the powerful, not the trigger-happy jumpiness of the vulnerable.

Some two-bit AQ hoodlums got lucky and sucker punched us on 9/11.

In response, we should have had confidence in the Western secular humanist narrative. Given a choice, I believe 99.99%+ of the world's population would prefer that narrative to 13th century Islamic law.

Wealthy Saudis like bin Laden? Not so much, since western values undermine:

(a) Islam's center in the universe;
(b) wealthy Saudi dominance within the Kingdom; and
(c) patriarchal powers within the home. (male & female)

But instead of looking at things in this manner, the Bush Administration (via Karl Rove) sought a three-fer-one:

-- remove Saddam; and
-- crush the American liberal; and
-- undermine the United Nations.

I also remain curious about the redacted bits in the 9/11 Commission Report concerning involvement of Saudis.

= = =

Back to the Western secular humanist narrative -- many on the American Right oppose that narrative even as they oppose AQ. Recall those preachers saying that tolerance of gays "caused" 9/11.

Bush-ian pandering to that base contributes to an unwillingness to use our best cultural weapons in defeating radical Islam.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Indeed (#42246)
by Bill White

Even today, the Democrats in Congress are so spooked by what Rove has wrought since 2001, that they ignore the majority of Americans who see plainly that Iraq has been well and truly FUBAR-ed by this Administration.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

To be fair (#42228)
by Larry

According to Godwin, engagement with a group of anyone, liberal, conservative, libertarian, or even fans of the swedish chef, end up invariably at this point.

of course... (#42224)
by stuzzy

It makes it all that much easier to wrap yourself in the flag and claim to be victimised by a society that doesn't care enough to support this vital front of the war on terror. "It's not my fault, it's everyone elses!" (rolls eyes)

More of the "republican as victim" schtick. Gets old after a while.

bill odom & der untergang (#42204)
by Micky Love

I can take some exception to your taking exception. Rather than blaming the loss on ¨incompetence, corruption, and ideological rigidity,¨ I found Bill Odom´s take on the issue of competence persuasive.

Many critics argue that, had the invasion been done "right," such as sending in much larger forces for reestablishing security and government services, the war would have been a success. This argument is not convincing. Such actions might have delayed a civil war but could not have prevented it. Therefore, any military programs or operations having the aim of trying to reverse this reality, insisting that we can now "do it right," need to be treated with the deepest of suspicion. That includes the proposal to sponsor the breakup by creating three successor states. To do so would be to preside over the massive ethnic cleansing operations required for the successor states to be reasonably stable. Ethnic cleansing is happening in spite of the US military in Iraq, but I see no political or moral advantage for the United States to become its advocate. We are already being blamed as its facilitator.

Odom also points out that as long as US is there in Iraq doing what it is doing - fighting Baathists and supporting the Shiite Islamists, it is actually serving the strategic interests of axis of evil member Iran. It´s a clear case of a self-defeating strategy. Failure has nothing to do with a lilly-livered public or a pea-brained president.

By the way, there is a recent German film, Der Untergang, featuring Bruno Ganz as the H man. It is an exceptionally riveting performance.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

Incompetence pervades. (#42205)
by Punditus Maximus

The war was incompetently chosen and then it was incompetently executed. Or, rather, it was chosen for the explicit purpose of use as a domestic political tool, and it was was executed with that purpose also in the forefront.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

e´en so (#42209)
by Micky Love

I think Odom´s point is that even if it had been fought competently, it is still Iran´s interests that would have been served. That´s why he calls it a strategic blunder.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

So in order to be nasty to Iran (#42212)
by MaxSchrek

we should have supported the surpression of the Shia
in Iraq.... oh sorry thats what we did do all those years.

--

Its just a model, you wouldn't want to bank on it.

Warrior/civilian divide (#42195)
by Punditus Maximus

I'm not sure I see an acknowledgement of the futility of further involvement given current leadership as particularly far from current civilian opinion.

--

It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.

The army way versus the Petraeus way (#42174)
by Bird Dog

So far, it looks like the Army is prevailing, which is exceedingly unfortunate. Blackfive has a good post on the topic, and he links to a paper by a Major Elizabeth Robbins on the benefits of milblogs. Too bad the Army suits aren't seeing that we're engaged in an Information War. They're making the exact wrong decision in lopping off a whole battalion of bloggers who can help us win this front.

BTW, I'm glad you stopped by, Tac. I know you've got your own site and all, but I'm telling you from personal experience that it's nice to come back to the old roots.

--

"I think the vice president misrepresented what the vice president wanted to say."
--Robert Gibbs

Or (#42179)
by BChurch

"Too bad the Army suits aren't seeing that we're engaged in an Information War."

Maybe they do see that we're in an information war, and feel that individual soldier bloggers, on the whole, are detrimental to that effort (corners turned, schools painted, we do not torture, etc.).

This is about control, pure and simple, (#42180)
by Bird Dog

not about milblogs being detrimental to the war effort. If you haven't, I encourage you to read Robbins' paper on the subject, which happened to have been praised by none other than General Petraeus.

--

"I think the vice president misrepresented what the vice president wanted to say."
--Robert Gibbs

Thanks, Charles. (#42176)
by tacitus

Much appreciated. I wax and wane as fortunes vary, but things are on an upswing at the moment, so I figured it was a good time to stop by.

We talk about you all the time when you're not here. (#42178)
by catchy

So it's always a good time for us.

Glad things are going good for you too.

You still at PRI?

Welcome (#42125)
by HankP

I hope we see more of you, not just posting articles but discussing them also.

I don't know what the internal dynamics of the army are, and all the vets I know served in Viet Nam or earlier so I'm not qualified to discuss how the average soldier feels about the army vis a vis American society. I have to disagree about the generic "alienation" idea, though, as far as I can see the societal acceptance and even exaltation of the armed forces has increased greatly from the time of Viet Nam. Soldiers may feel alienated from American society, but I don't recall American society being as supportive of the armed forces in the past 30 years as they are now. As far as I can tell, our society has pretty much separated the individual soldier from the policies they are tasked to carry out, which is as it should be.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Isn't it the war, and not the people, that drive the wedge? (#42122)
by Jordan

If you look at the list of our magnificent failures post-WWII -- Vietnam, Lebanon, Somalia, now Iraq, what do they all have in common? A political culture frustrated with a lack of popular will uses clumsy deception in order to defibrillate support for the war. The deception comes to light and results in a backlash of popular resentment and mistrust far worse than the original indifference. The first and most important split is in the breach of faith between ordinary Americans and their political representatives. The Armed Services are alienated as an afterthought: because they are perceived as the obedient tools of venal politicians that nobody can trust.

And all of this because why? Because we've had a string of leaders who tried to fight war on the fast and cheap, hoping to skate by the enormously difficult job of mobilization national support for a war effort. This is a vain hope in any true democracy, and the individuals who keep trying this tactic have done far more damage to this country than any of its enemies for the past 60 years.

--

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire

Its not practical to run that kind of war (#42123)
by luisalegria

Mr. Jordan,

"Because we've had a string of leaders who tried to fight war on the fast and cheap, hoping to skate by the enormously difficult job of mobilization national support for a war effort."

As the worlds policeman, the US needs to be able to fight wars on the cheap, at least, if not always the fast. We can't be mobilizing for WWIII every other year. The US needs to be able to fight small wars without mobilizing the society. This is not a new problem, but it does require some maturity, the greatest deficit of which is in its "elite". Frankly, this part of US society needs a major change in attitude.

Vietnam & Iraq weren't "small wars." (#42165)
by Jordan

That is where your thinking is going wrong, and perhaps also the thinking of people like McNamara & Nixon. There's a huge difference in kind between quick application of force in response to emergency (Kosovo, Cuban Missile Crisis) and prolonged struggle no matter how small (Vietnam, Iraq, even Lebanon). True, the latter type of action doesn't require total mobilization, but a wise leader, not taking any chances, *would act as if it does* insofar as political messaging goes. 35% of voters dead set against a war will kill the effort, as has been demonstrated repeatedly, and the longer the war drags on the more their ranks will grow.

Ignoring this fact, and blaming the 35% rather than the leadership, is not only a profound mistake...it is a mistake we've repeated half a dozen times since 1945. It is also a mistake our enemies are beginning to count on our political leaders making. Blaming part of the public, of course, is sabotaging a communication effort before it can get off the ground.

If you want the US to be the world's policeman, then it is simply a law of public life that you have to convince a majority to go along with that plan. It takes a sustained, effective, highly compelling communication effort on the home front to win wars. Ignore that law, and we will continue to lose little wars.

--

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire

Yes they were small wars (#42197)
by luisalegria

Mr. Jordan,

They did not require national mobilization and a major upset of national priorities.

A wise leader CANNOT "act as if it does", even in political messaging. If he did we really would become exhausted.

You will always have 35% against anything short of an existential problem, and perhaps not even then. If nothing can be done without substansive unanimity then nothing can be done. Or rather, it can be done by muddling through, as the US has managed since 1945.

The real problem is that, as a world policeman, it is necessary to be capable of warfare as a matter of routine.

And it is not I that wants the US to be the world policeman. The US IS the world policeman. I have no say in this, and neither does my political side, it is an independent fact. The US cannot get off the tiger.

Your ascribing this to me as a desire is telling - you yourself, symptomatic of that section of US opinion, have not accepted this as reality. That 35% is not just my problem, it is yours. You need to persuade yourself first.

You're replying to HankP on the policeman idea: (#42214)
by Jordan

I'm not disputing that premise, he is. I understand that for better or for worse, we are the tipping weight in the world's balance of power. My politics is all about going for the better, rather than the worse.

On your other points, just do me a favor and look at the evidence before continuing your argument. We've done well with small, quick, decisive actions. But with -- let's call them "medium wars" -- our track record is very poor. In every scenario where decisive action wasn't possible, and instead protracted, patient resolve was required, we've lost. We've lost because we didn't have political consensus. We didn't have political consensus because LBJ, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, and Bush didn't really see the need, and efforts were half hearted and contemptuous. Clumsy efforts to deceive the people were exposed, creating a dangerous breach in public trust. Let's look at your reasoning.

Yes they were small wars. They did not require national mobilization and a major upset of national priorities.

In the case of Iraq & Vietnam, they quite obviously weren't and did. Look at the evidence.

You will always have 35% against anything short of an existential problem, and perhaps not even then.

Immaterial. The question is, do they have a case, or not? If the 35% can argue persuasively that the action is against national interests, then the leadership has a burden to either remove those doubts, or concede that the doubters might be right.

If nothing can be done without substansive unanimity then nothing can be done.

Welcome to democracy! Hope you enjoy your stay.

Or rather, it can be done by muddling through, as the US has managed since 1945.

You mean we still exist? The Cold War ended well for us. Vietnam, Iraq, Lebanon, Iran, Somalia however were dangerous policy failures that have exposed a critical weakness in our foreign policy capabilities. Enemies of this country have only begun to learn to exploit that weakness, and every setback encourages more vicious, ruthless tactics and weakens our ability to "police" the world with anything more than laughable utility.

The solution? We need better consensus before taking action. It is achievable, and it is necessary. Really, not much of a choice at all, if we want to serve as a guarantor of global peace, while continuing to be a democracy.

--

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire

Patient resolve is indeed needed (#42247)
by luisalegria

Mr. Jordan,

I recognize that you are not saying what HankP is in denying the strategic situation, I am just not convinced that you have internalized it, which is part of the Democratic (party) problem.

In the case of Iraq and Vietnam the nation is/was able to bear the burdens without significant impact on the economy or society at the time. The US was at peace and did not need to behave domestically as if it were at war, a la WWI or WWII. I am looking at the evidence, as a % of GDP these were small commitments.

All of these situations you mention (and lets add Korea here) became unviable because a strong segment of the American elite was disaffected. This was not the fault of all these administrations - consider that these administrations were all over the map politically and in their closeness to the disaffected. In fact they all began with strong public support and several of them had excellent political and PR skills - consider the Kennedy/Johnson administrations.

If all of these governments fell into the same problems, one has to conclude that the problem lies elsewhere. One can point to details to "explain" this or that, but frankly one can find such things to explain any consequence you like. In international power politics nobody's hands can ever be clean enough to survive scrutiny, if the scrutineers are sufficiently motivated.

Which is where we get to the scrutineers. People like to find objective reasons for attitudes they have already adopted on very different grounds. The quality of persuasiveness is inherent in the people who are disaffected, not in their reasons or rationalizations.

35% opposition isn't a handicap to long-term policy in a democracy. The problem is which 35%. I'm saying that there is something deeply wrong with perhaps 5%, a persuasive and influential 5%. This is not a problem of democracy but of culture.

"The solution? We need better consensus before taking action. It is achievable, and it is necessary. "

It is not achievable without a fundamental change in attitude by that 5%.

% of GDP is irrelevant, that's the whole point. (#42255)
by Jordan

It does not matter how relatively inexpensive Vietnam was in terms of money or even lives compared to WWII. What does matter is that our rationale for being there and our objective while there was never convincingly sold to the American people. Eisenhower & Kennedy did a good job of alerting Americans to the danger of Soviet expansion. But Johnson focused on the war itself, and allowed focus on the bigger picture to waver. McNamara's Pentagon then became one of the clumsiest propaganda bureaus in history, and all their efforts to overcome determined opposition to the war backfired disastrously. They lied about casualties, they lied about casus belli, they lied to the troops, they lied to the troops' families, they lied to the public, and all this to cover the fact that there was no plan and no competency to accomplish anything in Vietnam other than to temporarily delay Vietnamese communism.

You say yourself there are always determined opponents to war. Look how many voices were out to thwart Clinton in Kosovo & Somalia. And FDR had to deal with Lindbergh. An effective leader knows how to answer these opponents. An ineffective one does not. It's as simple as that. And that's how wars get lost.

--

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire

It is not that there are opponents, its who they are (#42261)
by luisalegria

Mr. Jordan,

Back in WWII, Roosevelt had the unqualified support of that critical 5% (which didn't include the likes of Lindbergh; people like this are never a factor in elite opinion). That was the last war of any kind, long or short, when that was true. They were unenthusiastic through the Kennedy administration, and consistently hostile afterwards.

And the GDP business is critically relevant.

No system can work if it only does so when it is being run by the exceptionally talented. I don't think we can have an administration or government that can ever be sufficently competent to overcome this inherent hostility, as we are dealing with huge bureaucracies at war. Anybody willing to be outraged or disaffected will always - under any conceivable government - find a reason to be.

You started the discussion of the 35% malcontenters (#42273)
by Jordan

Now I have no idea who this 'critical 5%' are supposed to be.

Again I want to be as simple and clear as possible: winning wars in a democracy requires overcoming dissension like this. It's the law of democratic warfare: political support is every bit as 'mission critical' as supply lines or training. Feel free to point fingers all you want, but this is the reality of our situation, and you aren't solving it by finding scapegoats.

If the dissension can't be overcome, then maybe the war shouldn't be fought after all.

--

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire

I did not bring up the 35% (#42274)
by luisalegria

Mr. Jordan,

I think you introduced that number.

My point all along is that we have a particularly influential minority, opinion makers and leaders, that will never approve of these wars until their cultural underpinnings are substantially modified. I think that in numbers these people are perhaps more like 5% than 35%.

One cannot count on doing that which is necessary until cultural reforms are achieved in that critical minority.

Oops about the 35%.... (#42277)
by Jordan

I know I was replying to someone else, but can't remember who or where now. Apologies for accusing you of my own stupidity. :)

--

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire

Well, unless you're talking about imprisoning/executing/ (#42276)
by Jordan

forcibly re-educating them, aren't you saying the same thing I'm saying? Yes, the White House does have to win cultural battles (and casus belli arguments) in order to win wars. That's just the way things are.

Blaming your opponent, attacking their honesty, loyalty, intelligence, and humanity, by the way, is not a way to win such arguments.

--

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire

Patience is indeed needed together (#42250)
by Bill White

with a level headed strategy. Our strategy since 2001 has been to toss gasoline on a fire.

Here is Jane Harmon:

Our failure to dry up the seemingly endless pool of recruits willing to martyr themselves is the main reason why we continue to lose ground against al Qaida worldwide.

It is al Qaida, not Iraq, that is our biggest problem, and we need much better strategies for dealing with it. It seems to me that restoring America's core values and proud legal traditions are a big piece of any strategy for improving our tarnished international standing and winning the argument with the next generation of would-be terrorists.

We are in a ideological (narrative) struggle and providing martyrs to a civilization that adores martyrs is simply folly.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

I disagree with your premise (#42124)
by HankP

(what a surprise). We are not "the world's policeman", and neither we nor the world want us to fulfill that role. My guess is that any national politician who explicitly stated that as a reason for running would go down in a lopsided defeat.

War is too important to be done "cheap" and "fast". It needs debate and a clear threat to the nation, not just a "well, if we don't do this something bad might happen in ten years or so". If you want to see maturity, that's where it begins.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

But we are (#42126)
by luisalegria

Mr. HankP,

Thats what the US has been in fact for the last 60 years.

And it continues to be in that role, as there is no alternate player to take up that burden. The "world" can whine and worry, but when push comes to shove it is the US that they go to.

The alternative is to invite the re-emergence of the great powers (or a new set) and their power games.

I disagree (#42130)
by HankP

that one is needed. The UN or some other supranational organization is the way to go on enforcing "international law", if nothing else it's better for us to have the cover of a multinational force - for one thing, it allays the concerns that we are doing it solely for our interests.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

But there is no such thing (#42133)
by luisalegria

Mr. HankP,

As a "multinational force" as anything other than a token.

There is no such military available in the world today, other than that of the US.

And even if there was, it would still be a joke.

Even if any significant number of players can be persuaded to pay for a significant military when they don't have to, there is the problem of divided political authority. Frankensteins monsters of this sort don't work very well unless the directing will is unified, unless there is a senior partner that calls the shots - i.e., the US.

Barring that, even if the world net of the US had worthwhile deployable forces, and much more expensive, Naval and Air forces to serve as the true strategic guarantors against international aggression, they would be for the most part paralyzed by the need for consensus, or worse, serve as the seeds of the new Great Powers.

When it comes to war (#42147)
by HankP

there is a need for consensus, that's the whole point. The conflicts we have been involved in over the past 30 years have been smaller, localized conflicts in countries that have not directly threatened the US. A little more consideration and consensus building is the very thing that's missing.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

it´s civil conflict (#42137)
by Micky Love

not international aggression that poses most danger to life and stability these days, usually in the world´s poorest nations. Africa is rife with examples. You should know this. The US is loathe to send troops into such conflicts and the dreaded nuclear deterrant is worthless. This policeman is sitting in his car eating doughnuts while the neighbourhood burns.

New great powers seem to be on the rise. Nations such as China and India may for the moment share strategic goals with the US but time and events will separate them.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

The reason for that is because there is a policeman (#42140)
by luisalegria

Mr. Love,

Its akin to denying the need for policemen in downtown San Francisco because there aren't mobs regularly breaking into shops at mid-day. We have civil order because there are police to impose it at need, and because of this there is seldom need.

The world is in fact in a state of profound international peace, military budgets as a proportion of global GDP are at a historic low. The neighborhoods are not burning.

What we have internationally is petty crime in bad neighborhoods, plus of course ugly domestic disputes. As usual the police are reviled by the dwellers in the ghettos they aren't too eager to enter, and at the same time they are verbally beset by the comfortable (you know who you are) whenever they do.

No doubt all this isn't going to last forever. We should make hay while the sun shines, and get as much of the world up to a first-world state as we can, as soon as we can.

no petty nation (#42144)
by Micky Love

I think there´s a good argument to be made for your case. Any recent international wars have tended to involve the US in one way or another. You are probably uniformed about the situation in Africa if you think the conflicts there are petty. Maps tend to show equitorial nations like the Congo as being smaller than they actually are, and Northern nations larger. The map is not the territory Luis, and Congo is the world´s 12th largest nation in physical size, and at more than 63 million, it´s no slacker in terms of population, either. Nothing petty about it.

If you´re still reading, you might want to acquaint yourself with the recent wars in Congo. They claimed about 4 million victims, and there is still unrest today. Interestingly, a certain Libyan colonel, and no cop from the USA, played a role in mediating an end to the major fighting.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

Welcome back indeed (#42119)
by luisalegria

Mr. Tacitus,

And please, if you will, post whatever you write here.

Comment - I agree with you as far as the problem of alienation. There are specific steps that can be taken to mitigate this with some civilian political will. One small thing that may be more effective than one would think could be the expansion of JROTC. That program has less than 1/4th the funds that it could use, and it does get down to the grass roots.

Second that (#42168)
by brendanm98

Pretty sure this would stir up some discussion here, for example.

Edit: I see RedState already got the piece mentioned by Catchy below (seems to be well received there), so I'm guessing you're posting a few pieces to various blogs to let people know you're back. Just for the record, Swords Crossed would also enjoy debating the evolution piece, and I imagine some of the posters would appreciate the link to your site. Perhaps I'll highlight it myself if you don't wish to crosspost. Good luck with your relaunch.

--

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

The political Christianity piece. (#42177)
by tacitus

Please feel free to post it in full at SC if you wish -- just give a link back to the original posting, if you would. Many thanks!

Tacitus posting here would be good (#42142)
by catchy

Then we could get him to provide cites for stuff like:

As ... threatened by Ségolène Royal, there is violence in the wake of Nicolas Sarkozy’s victory in the French presidential election.

http://joshua.trevino.at/?p=224

Are the necons net ahead if we trade (#42160)
by Bill White

Sarkozy for Royal; and

trade Gordon Brown for Tony Blair?

My thought? Perhaps not.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

Guess it all depends (#42412)
by Timmy

on what Brown is all about. At the moment conservatives (European style no doubt) dominant see Germany and France.

One should wonder why (nothing to do with geopolitics btw).

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

Welcome back! (#42112)
by Timmy

Where have you been?

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

He was never here before. (#42194)
by M Aurelius

So it's not "Welcome back!". It's simply "Welcome!".

--

Holographic Foam Cosmology. Improved! With bigger bubbles!

More parsing (#42290)
by Timmy

from someone who say he doesn't.

But simply put, if there was no Tacitus there would have never been a Forvm.

Thus, welcome back was spot on.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

No (#42399)
by HankP

The old site was shut down on short notice and with no assistance to the new site at all. If there was no MA, there would be no forvm. He did most of the heavy lifting to get this site off the ground. I was there doing it, unlike you, so I know what I'm talking about. Show some appreciation.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

And Without. . . (#42402)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .tacitus.org there wouldn't have been a group of people to quickly populate the Forvm in the first place. Regardless of the appreciation owed to MA and the other participants in the creation of this new place, MA's comments were ungracious, though Timmy's reaction to the unprovoked truculence was also perhaps a bit much. Tac can take care of himself with regard the rough and tumble regarding substantive issues, but if a friendly greeting to him is to be considered grounds for sniping of this sort, I'm not going to want to spend much more time here.

Speaking of which, I'm gone starting tomorrow morning to attend my sister's wedding in Las Vegas, hang out with my father in So Cal, and attend a board meeting, and I won't be back until the evening of the 20th--don't get into trouble without me. :-)

--

How is "Welcome" ungracious? (#42406)
by HankP

Tacitus has never posted here before, so I don't see what the problem is.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

In Isolation, Nothing (#42408)
by M Scott Eiland

The fact that he went out of his way to contradict Timmy by saying it in a response to a comment--it's ungracious in that it is unnecessarily petulant regarding the circumstances of the changeover, and it is also IMO an overt continuation of his hostility towards Timmy that Timmy certainly did nothing to provoke. It's not something against the rules, but I think it was uncalled for and if I see much more of it I may decide that the climate here has become overly unpleasant. If Tacitus is going to be made to feel unwelcome here--even by passive/aggressive methodology--well. . .my term as a moderator is up next month.

Also--just in the service of accuracy--the title of the comment in question was "He Was Never Here Before," not "Welcome." Meaning that your interpretation of the comment is, shall we say, charitable.

Just my two cents.

--

I must be missing something (#42409)
by HankP

MA points out that it's "welcome" instead on "welcome back" since tacitus has never posted here, and that's ungracious? I also said "welcome" instead of "welcome back", am I ungracious also? Where's the petulance? I can understand the irritation at other comments made over the months here by a variety of people, but this one escapes me.

I don't want to get into a whole subthread about this, but I just don't see it.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

Well it probably revolves around the parsing (#42411)
by Timmy

but the fact of the matter is simply this, no Tac no Forvm. If you had been around as long as I you might understand the gravity. But anytime MA responds with snark Timmy will follow.

I was happy to see Tac back. I'm not sure what MA's opinion was, not that I really care.

Given the overall tone, one might wonder why we have lost so many.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

If MA. . . (#42410)
by M Scott Eiland

. . .had made a comment saying "Welcome" that was not a response to Timmy's "Welcome Back" comment, that would not have been ungracious. It was unnecessary and a bit rude to go out of the way to contradict Timmy--who certainly was not trying to antagonize MA with his comment. My honest opinion is that if MA wasn't inclined to say "Welcome" to Tacitus without doing it in the context of contradicting Timmy or going out of his way to explain his reasons for saying "Welcome" rather than "Welcome Back," he might have been well advised to keep his sentiments to himself. I'm not demanding it--it's not a rules situation. It's a matter of "do I want to spend as much time in a place where this is going on?" It's not just MA--I'm seeing a bit of testing around the edges in the comments today that strikes me as "how much can I goad Tacitus and get away with it?" I'm going to be gone for ten days, so obviously things may be different when I get back. If they're not, I will have to make certain basic decisions regarding how much of my time this place is worth.

Also--pointing it out for a second time--your comment was titled "Welcome" and continued immediately with a sentence expressing hope that Tacitus would post more here. MA's comment--an answer to Timmy's "Welcome Back" comment--was titled "He was never here before" and consisted entirely of a correction to Timmy's comment. You really don't see a difference between the two?

--

Support The Forvm

Powell's Books

Amazon.com

Help support the Forvm by buying items through our links. All proceeds go to defraying our hosting costs.

Links

Conservative
Liberal
Moderate/Mixed/Non-Partisan
Non-Political/Reference

Related Sites -

Polisci Applied (Aaron)
Intrepid Liberal Journal (Intrepid Liberal)
Obsidian Wings (Bird Dog)
Open Hand/Open Eye (locutas)
Red State (Bird Dog)
Swords Crossed (brendanm98)
Wagster Speaks (Wagster)
WatchingAmerica (BlaiseP)
The Social Pathologist (TSP)

Foreign Affairs -

Abu Aardvark
'Aqoul
American Footprints
Council on Foreign Relations
CSIS
Democracy Arsenal
Intel Dump
The Fourth Rail
War and Piece

Politics -

Ace of Spades HQ
Andrew Sullivan
Balloon Juice
Belgravia Dispatch
Captain's Quarters
Crooked Timber
Curmudgeonly & Skeptical
Daily Kos
Democracy Arsenal
Eschaton
Firedoglake
Glenn Greenwald
Global Guerrillas
Hugh Hewitt
Instapundit
Jawa Report
Lawyers, Guns and Money
Liberals Against Terror
Matt Yglesias
Michael J. Totten
Michelle Malkin
Moon of Alabama
New America
OxBlog
Patterico
Political Animal
Political Wire
Publius Pundit
QandO
Reality Based Community
Talking Points Memo
The Agitator
The Belmont Club
The Corner
Truman Project
Winds of Change.net

War -

Counterterrorism Blog
Iraq the Model
Jihad Watch
Small Wars Journal Blog

Economics and Business -

Angry Bear
Brad DeLong
Daniel Drezner
Mahalanobis
Marginal Revolution
Roubini Global Economics
The Big Picture

Science and Tech -

Bad Astronomy
New Scientist
Real Climate
Science Blogs
Scientific American
The Panda's Thumb

Legal -

Balkinization
Conglomerate
Ideoblog
Jurisdynamics
Law and Letters
Overlawyered
ProfessorBainbridge
ScotusBlog
Talk Left
The Becker-Posner Blog
Volokh Conspiracy

Sports -

Baseball Crank
Baseball Musings
Baseball Reference.com
ESPN.com
NFL.com
Only Baseball Matters
The Sports Economist

Books, Film and Music -

Amazon.com
Internet Movie Database
All Music Guide

News and Aggregators -

Asia Times
Boingboing
CNN
Digg
English Russia
Fark
Los Angeles Times
Memeorandum
MSNBC
Politico
Poynteronline
Slashdot
The New York Times
The Washington Post

References -

Wikipedia
Your Dictionary