The key to plentiful solar power is water, er an artificial photosynthesis

Submitted by Timmy on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 9:18pm. Tags:

says a Massachusetts Institute of Technology technical paper.

I'm shocked and horrified because if you listened to the Congress over the last two years, there was no Federal Funding for projects of this nature.

The idea is to use the energy from solar photovoltaic panels (or another electricity source [aka wind power]) to crack water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen gas. Those gases would be stored and used later in a fuel cell to make electricity when the sun is not shining.

The concept is a closed-loop system: running the hydrogen and water through the fuel cell creates water, which can be captured and used again.

The hope is that within 10 years, a cost-effective system that combines clean energy generation with storage can be engineered and available cheaply to people around the world.

Do you think if we offered a really big prize the 10 year period might be shortened?

National Renewable Energy Laboratory

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”

John F. Kennedy

January 20, 1961

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”

John F. Kennedy

January 20, 1961

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Of ... (#106888)
by Elagabalus on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 5:24am

note: Nicea

--

I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine

( )
Eh, it seems there is an issue (#106846)
by Bill White on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:35pm

we are missing.

This process appears to use electricity from PV solar panels to crack the water into H2 & O2. The new catalyst means less power is needed but we still need electricity, not sunlight.

True photocatalysis would facilitate using sunlight directly on the water rather than requiring electricity to be generated in another manner (such as PV panels).

Not as revolutionary as I first thought but still a useful step.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( )
we are missing (#106850)
by Timmy on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:50pm

This process appears to use electricity from PV solar panels.

It is a storage system. I remember relying on wind power and submarine batteries, inefficient and toxic, the batteries that is.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
But is PV the best source of electricity? (#106905)
by Bill White on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 9:31am

Yep, better batteries are better. And a good thing.

However, this is not a sufficient "killer application" to justify going crazy on.

Prizes? Sure, but this prize needs to be part of a broad spectrum of prizes, not merely a stand-a-lone battery scheme.

And if the federal taxpayers fund these prizes, the intellectual property developed to win the prize should be put in the public domain so everyone can use it.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( | parent )
It's not a one-size-fits-all solution. (#106909)
by JKC on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 10:15am

Photovoltaics aren't going to be worth much in, say, Alaska or Northern Canada in the winter. In the desert Southwest? They're great.

There isn't going to be a one-size-fits-all solution to energy generation, transmission and storage. We're all going to have to learn to be flexible, and to use the solution best suited to the local geography and climate.

In a lot of ways, I think the world is going to stop shrinking and start growing again.

( | parent )
I have hopes for this approach (#106950)
by Bill White on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 12:21pm

Solar power towers

= = =

Also, a prize to solve problems associated with concentrated PV would give us far more leverage than a battery prize. The sticking point appears to be heat transfer away from the silicon solar cell. We can add a magnifying glass easily enough to increase insolation on the actual PV receptor except that tends to melt the chip.

Find a method to dissipate that heat and PV performance jumps nicely.

One older link to the issue:

http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/17774/page1/

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( | parent )
And it doesn't hurt (#106953)
by aireachail on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 12:23pm

that they have a kickin' horn section...

--

Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham

( | parent )
Best Concert Surprise of my life: (#106983)
by JKC on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 1:18pm

Pat Benatar with the Tower of Power horns, singing jazz, R&B and blues standards.

Made me want to go up to her and ask her why she wasted her career singing "Hit Me With Your Best Shot."

( | parent )
PS: Timmy: link glitch? (#106833)
by Jay C on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:23pm

Your link to the National Renewable Energy Lab only takes one to the Forvm "Page not Found" page.

Formatting?

( )
Thanks (#106836)
by Timmy on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:26pm

the link is fixed

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
I would be thrilled to see these systems (#106832)
by Bill White on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:23pm

available at Home Depot or Menards or Lowe's. Allow people to get off the electric grid even in congested settings.

This would make electric cars practical and reduce the political and economic power of the big energy companies.

Okay, I'll rec this for the Front Page!

= = =

Hey! Wait a minute! Where is the real Timmy? What have you done with him?

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( )
This would make electric cars practical (#106840)
by Timmy on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:28pm

I believe it would.

It also has applications outside of the home.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
I doubt a prize would make much of a difference (#106802)
by HankP on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 9:47pm

the value of a patent for a process like this would be astronomical. A prize would only work for an idea that would have a hard time attracting venture capital, like the X Prize.

BTW, Nocera's work was funded by the NSF, which I believe is considered federal funding. Also, his process solves only half the problem, it produces O2 but doesn't produce hydrogen gas. It's a good step forward, though.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( )
Nocera's work was funded by the NSF (#106804)
by Timmy on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 9:51pm

apparently the irony was missed by you.

Of note, Matthew Kanan work was also funded by the DOE.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
If you wrote in complete grammatical sentences (#106810)
by HankP on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:01pm

it would be easier to understand what you're trying to say, that is true. You should read up on information theory and the limits of data compression.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
must be all those legal documents (#106825)
by Timmy on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:16pm

and comments from the Congressional Majority Party.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Would a really big prize require that (#106781)
by Bill White on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 9:25pm

the technology developed by the winner be released into the public domain? Meaning no patent rights?

If yes, then I would support a very large appropriation of federal tax dollars subject to careful crafting of the fine print as to what constitutes winning.

If the winner keeps the prize money AND the patent rights. Nope, not a good idea.

Of note: Hydrogen fuel cells generally require platinum (or other PGMs - rhodium is very useful as well) however we are definitely facing a "peak platinum" situation with South Africa (strong 1st) and Russia (distant 2nd) holding a strong cartel position.

The Moon, however, may well have recoverable PGM. JFTR.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( )
Of note: Hydrogen fuel cells generally require platinum (#106793)
by Timmy on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 9:39pm

apparently, you didn't read the link, what a shame.

[sigh]

Let me help you.

The catalyst--made of a cobalt phosphate--can operate in plain water at atmospheric pressure, giving it more potential than existing methods

Prizes have been shared. JFTR

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
What Jordan said . . . (#106816)
by Bill White on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:07pm

Cobalt phosphate apparently does help crack water into H2 and O2 in the presence of sunlight. Which is VERY cool.

Thanks for the link!

BUT

Hydrogen fuels cells that recombine H2 & O2 into water, to release that energy, do require PGM. There are high temperature fuel cells that do not require PGM but those are not suitable for home use.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( | parent )
"Home use" (#106830)
by Jay C on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:21pm

That seems to be the key: to me, the most interesting (and most radical) part of Nocera's announcement was his vision of how this new system might be applied - as interesting, IMO, as how the thing actually works:

He envisions a complete break with existing power distribution infrastructure where each home can produce and store enough electricity to be self-sufficient.

Today, when solar panels generate more electricity than a home is using, the excess is simply fed back into the grid, essentially subtracting from the homeowner's utility bill. In an off-grid application, the excess is put into batteries.

But with radically cheaper storage, remote power plants running on polluting fossil fuels are cut out of the picture altogether.

It's not a new concept that a "dispersed" model of energy production/distribution could be the answer to a LOT of this country's energy "issues" - but a solar/fuel-cell system small, efficient (and, naturally, safe!) enough to work on a home-use basis might just be what we need.

( | parent )
Honda FCX Clarity Home Energy Station (#106903)
by Model 62 on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 9:05am

Honda has been working on something like this for a while.

The Home Energy Station
Honda has operated an experimental Home Energy Station in Torrance, California, since 2003. The Home Energy Station, which generates hydrogen from natural gas, is designed to provide heat and electricity for the home through fuel cell cogeneration and to supply fuel for a hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicle.

Ultimately, Honda would replace the natural gas part of the system with solar, wherever practical.

Here's the part that gets me. The car's fuel cell can produce electricity for the home -- and the rest of the grid.

Here's the other part that gets me. Whenever hydrogen fuel cells come up, everyone complains about the expense of building a new hydrogen infrastructure. Honda's plan solves that problem (almost) with an elegant aikido two-step that gets us close to decentralized power.

I want one so bad it hurts.

( | parent )
I agree with this . . . (#106835)
by Bill White on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:26pm

and I doubt Timmy has thought through how distributed electric power generation would also facilitate less concentration of political power.

Which is the best part of the entire idea.

Electric cars means no more wars for oil.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( | parent )
I doubt Timmy (#106843)
by Timmy on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:32pm

whoever said the mind reading was a lost art obviously has never met Bill.

I wonder if you incoporated PUCs into your political calculations?

Now we can limit our armed conflicts to liberty.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
No more power company/grid. :) -nt- (#106839)
by Jordan on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:27pm

.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

( | parent )
No, you'd want to keep that (#106844)
by HankP on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:33pm

something like this would be great for low power density requirements like households, but you'd still need a grid for factories, data centers, etc. You'd also want it to route power in case of natural disasters.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
Apparently, you didn't either. (#106806)
by Jordan on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 9:52pm

A finished system that MIT researchers envision would separate both hydrogen and oxygen. Once stored, both gases would be fed into a fuel cell using a second catalyst like platinum to make electricity.

...a number of improvements still need to be made before realizing the "hydrogen economy." Right now, systems to produce hydrogen and oxygen from water would require huge amounts of land and materials to make catalysts.

"The initial results look promising but it doesn't answer all the things you need in a catalyst," he said. Turner's research focuses on improving ways of harvesting light energy to crack water molecules.

Still, very cool technology, if it works.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

( | parent )
actually you are correct (#106813)
by Timmy on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:06pm

bta, alloy of copper, cobalt, and platinum is 50 times cheaper than just platinum and has showed great promise.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Still think it's exciting (#106838)
by Jordan on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:26pm

even if the fuel cell phase still requires platinum. I read about fuel cells & photosynthesis cracking when I was a kid, the idea of a closed loop cell drawing solar power. Very cool that folks are making progress. Maybe we won't wind up in a cannibal apocalypse after all.

--

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH

( | parent )
There are work-arounds for PGM (#106817)
by Bill White on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:10pm

but actually using more PGM in some of those work around ideas greatly increases energy through-put.

Make no mistake, the core concept is terrific.

And I would eagerly support a VERY LARGE PRIZE provided the resulting technology was released into the public domain so everyone could deploy these systems at home without paying patent royalties.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( | parent )
Since the two authors (#106821)
by Timmy on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:15pm

don't appear to be pursuing patents.

It would be the basic manufacturing platform which would generate the royalties and incorporate into the price of the system.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Yesh (#106812)
by Model 62 on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:04pm

Step One: Make hydrogen gas from water using this cheap new catalyst.

Step Two: Use hydrogen and oxygen gases to produce electricity in a fuel cell (which employs platinum).

Still cool. Now we need somebody to find a cheaper catalyst for Step Two.

( | parent )
cheaper catalyst (#106818)
by Timmy on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:11pm

reminds me of our conversation about oil leases

Now, Strasser and his team have developed a new material, an alloy of platinum, copper, and cobalt that is deposited onto carbon supports in the form of nanoparticles.

The active catalytic phase is formed in situ: when a cyclic alternating current is applied to the electrode, the less precious metals, especially the copper, on the surface of the nanoparticles separate from the alloy. This process results in nanoparticles with a core made of the original copper-rich alloy and a shell containing almost exclusively platinum.

“The oxygen-reducing activity of our new electrocatalytic material is unsurpassed—it is four to five times higher than that of pure platinum. In addition, we have demonstrated how to incorporate and activate this material in situ in a fuel cell,” says Strasser.

The observed increase in surface area of the nanoparticles is not enough to explain the increased activity. Strasser suspects that special altered structural characteristics of the surface play a role. Although the surface consists mostly of platinum, the distances between the platinum atoms on the particle surface seem to be shorter than those in pure platinum. This compression can be stabilized by the alloy core, which shows even shorter Pt-Pt distances because of the presence of copper and cobalt. In addition, the copper-rich core seems to influence the electronic properties of the platinum shell.

Theoretical calculations have suggested that the oxygen can thus bind optimally to the particle surface, allowing it to be more easily reduced.

An engineering consultant tells me that the economies are material.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Presumably, this idea shall be patented (#106826)
by Bill White on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:17pm

And the alloy sold for maybe 90% of the then price of PGM.

Yep, it helps but its not a panacea.

--

Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.

( | parent )
I understand it is significantly cheaper (#106845)
by Timmy on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:34pm

bta I was just speaking to an engineer.

--

“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961

( | parent )
Honestly, (#106785)
by dionysus on Thu, 07/31/2008 - 9:31pm

and thanks for the diary Timmy, honestly, even if the winner turns out to have defrauded the public for 10 billion dollars, I'll still be happy with the outcome.

Plus, we'll have democrats running everything soon.

( | parent )
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