Do Tracking Polls Show That The Wright Affair Has Affected Obama's Campaign?
I report, you decide.
The latest Rasmussen and Gallup show downward trend lines for Obama's percentage of the vote that might correlate with when the Wright videos hit the MSM.
Per Gallup:
John McCain may be benefiting in the short-term from the highly charged Democratic race. He holds a statistically significant lead over Obama, 47% to 43%, in registered voters' preferences for the general presidential election. That is the first time any of the candidates has held a statistically significant lead since Gallup Poll Daily tracking began reporting on the general election race last week. McCain's 48% to 45% advantage over Clinton is not statistically significant, but it is the first time he has had an edge over her in Gallup Poll Daily tracking.
And Rasmussen:
The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Wednesday shows John McCain continuing to hold a six-percentage point lead over both potential Democratic opponents. McCain currently leads Barack Obama 48% to 42% and Hillary Clinton 49% to 43% margin . . .
Note to Obamaphiles: I didn't take these polls. Feel free to attack the methodology or their significance all you like. You can say that the results are below statistical significance, that polls are meaningless at this point in the election runup, that weasels ripped your flesh (Arrgh!), or that my mother wears Army boots. Or you can grapple with the situation as it stands now. Your call.
--
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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And they're even in the majority! From, of all folks, Fox News:
- Americans do not believe Barrack Obama shares his pastor's views, by a 57 to 24 percent margin among registered voters.
- Only 36 percent of Republican voters believe Obama shares his pastor's views.
I was wrong. Most folks, it turns out, apply the same standards to the white candidate (Romney) as the black (Obama). And that's a good thing.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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)Turns out that when Bubba called together the most prominent spiritual dudes in the nation so that he could repent for banging Monica Lewinsky, a now familiar face was in the crowd. You know. Jeremiah Wright.
Nice picture of the Prez and Jeremiah discussing Black Liberation Theology, here.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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)Good for him:
TPM wants to spin this as a black mark against McCain, which makes me wonder what alternate universe they're living in. I think it's fantastic, clear evidence of the fact that whatever else McCain may be, he's an honest and honorable man.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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)nt
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| parent )Well someone had to take up the offer and I'm getting
sick of the over-analysis of Obama and Hilary and that
Grandpa John will win because hes slightly ahead at this
point.... sigh.
Meanwhile 5th anniversary and Bush says hes won
in Iraq, medication still not working.
The markets are going to volatility hell in a
sub-prime basket.
Some people in funny robes have the shit beaten out of
them and their culture surpressed, again.
Has the world gone away while this swiftian tradegdy
of democracy is played out US style....
PS: Im sure your mothers got decent footwear.
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)If you read my diary as saying McCain will win in November based on polls now, you need a dictionary.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )You're missing the big picture. Yesterday's speech was playing to the elites... the superdelegates, the commentariat, the editors, the lefty bloggers, the activist base. With that audience, the speech was a home run. He's going to reap the benefits: better coverage, more superdelegate support.
By November, Wright will be stale. If you think a 527 is going to revive the issue with ads, you might be disappointed. This year Obama and McCain are likely to come to a deal so that any 527 spending would be deducted from each side's total. So McCain is going to be actively discouraging advertising by others, since it would be a pound out of his flesh.
Of course, if they don't come to such an agreement, Obama will outspend McCain 2 to 1. And while he's at it, the liberal groups will make everyone think that Hagee is the godfather of McCain's children.
--More Wagster!
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)intended audience.
Let's not lose sight of the fact that however good it was, Obama was forced to give that speech by the need for damage control once the MSM circulated videos of Wright's sermons. It may be that he intended to say something similar at some later point during the campaign, but his timing was forced by matters his campaign knew about but badly underestimated.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )Do they (the McCain Family) belong to his congregation?
More importantly does Hagee sell DVDs of his rants?
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )LINK.
BTW, McCain himself called Parsley his spiritual advisor.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )The people of Arizona need to know about this.
A link to the advisor meme would be nice.
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )McCain is the one who called him a spiritual guide. You're not suggesting that he was just saying that to get the rubes to vote for him, are you?
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )A DVD of the Vicar comparing the USA with the KKK would be nice as well with his congregation egging him on.
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )He just calls Catholicism a great whore.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )er, actually after your last diary maybe not.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )the adding subpar
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )for the GOP is that Obama is running against MCain, not against some perfect candidate. There will be no lack of issues to attack McCain on and in the middle of what looks like the biggest financial crisis in decades I tend to doubt that Obama's pastor's views will seem very significant.
--This place is my vacation.
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)"Most Voters Say Obama's Pastor Problem Made No Difference To Them"
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)or maybe just not read it before commenting. "No difference" is not remotely what the CBS poll shows. From your link:
15 % of Dems saying the Wright story made a difference is bad enough - from the poll itself:
Democrats are especially apt to say their views
are unchanged. However, of those whose opinion is changed, the net impact is very negative.
And are you claiming that the 36% of the center whose opinion of BO has changed as a result of this isn't significant? Well, OK . . .
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )30 percent of the country also still supports Bush. You can poll the color of the sky and I bet you'll get 30% who tell you that it's hot pink.
76% of Democrats say it makes no difference at all, with a total of 85% not having an adverse reaction.
65% of the country say it makes no difference at all, with 70% not having an adverse reaction.
Even Republicans, who are inclined to hate the Democrat, are split on their opinion, with a slight majority not giving a crap.
So, as the headline says (maybe you didn't read it?), "Most Voters Say Obama's Pastor Problem Made No Difference To Them."
And I stand by my claim that, given a 70% yawn in March, the public has rejected this particular line of attack.
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| parent )Here's the point, simplified: the "some" that aren't "most" are still a lot. Meaning that even a few %age points affected and/or lost are bad. Gittit?
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )Well, who was affected? Democratic voter opinion? Irrelevant, they won't vote McCain. Republican? Irrelevant, they typically rush to their nominee as well. Independents?
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| parent )Instead of an article or language spinning it, for us to be on the same page. Typically of CBS, the poll data are sloppily and incompletely reported; for example, I don't see any listing of the actual number of Dems, Repubs and independents that were polled, making it impossible to determine the degree to which the aggregate represents a cross-section of the electorate. There are two different polling periods, with the shorter polled group only half the size of the longer. And as usual, the margins of error potentially swamp out differences.
But you cited to it, not me, so I assume you think the numbers are representative of something. Question 82 asked registered voters "Have Wright's statements affected your opinion of Obama?" Thirty percent of those who answered "YES" said that those statements have made them feel less favorable towards Obama. The margin of error, a whopping six percent, doesn't significantly affect the fact that a large percentage of those polled have lowered their opinion of Obama based on the Wright videos. Which to the extent it means anything, answers the question that this diary asked in the first place.
AFA what those voters will do consequential to those reduced opinions, neither of us can say, as there's no way of knowing the political affiliations of the subparts of that group. Even a one-point loss as a result of Wright's ravings would be significant if translated into actual votes.
There really is nothing positive at all for Obama in the CBS poll, unless it's that two-thirds of those polled don't have a lowered opinion of him post-Wright.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )Do we have data on McCain's Grandpa Simpson moment yet?
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )-o-o--
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )And of course, motive for turning a comment into a diary.
I was right! Told you so!! I was right so I told you so!!!
Not that there's anything wrong with that. :)
As to the polling itself.
First, Rasmussen records an identical drop in support for both Obama and Hillary. Gads. Does Hillary know Rev. Wright too? When did *that* happen and why hasn't someone written a diary about it? How does she look in a Dashiki?
Second, of course the Wright Affair affected Obama's polling. But that only matters if it cedes sufficient advantage to Clinton so that she might grab the nomination (not gonna happen) or if it will work like Swiftboating did to Kerry and undermine the rationale for his candidacy (given how Obama handled it -- an action not yet polled - and given how much time we have before November? It probably won't.)
Then there's McCain's feeble Rest Home moment yesterday. If that continues? You'll need a stiff drink of something every time you open up a polling report. And I'm guessing it will. If only becuz Russert et al are already preparing their gotcha debate questions for the Old Dude Who Needs A Nap.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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)Even you have a limited number of bogus barbs, and slinging them now seems a bit agitated. Oh, and read the diary before commenting.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )Heh. That's five sentences, podna. I counted.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Trying to raise the standards for publication on us? Doom! Doom! I'm running to the faculty lounge right now to type up a 60,000 word screed justifying my profession and my position in it and attacking all the haters. Ok, so it's only about 75 *meaningful* words....
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Brevity and levity. But I can easily churn out 2000 words on Al Gore's hypocrisy if you like.
Oh, and oops! That's six sentences, podna. How embarrasking, as Popeye would say.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )Fives sentences is an ideological belch. Six is a well-thought-out and insightful look at the political scene. Sorry. I don't make the rules. That's just the way it is.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Double ouchies. C'mon, stop already - I'm laughing too hard.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )This just ain't one you can bluster your way out of. as the Magic Eight-Ball says, try again later.
And please, "wingtard" is just so lame.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )You've merely afforded me the opportunity to be amused. On my birthday, I might add.
What's your petard's name? Shock or Awe?
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )last half hour. Thought it was so funny in fact I called the wife over, explained 'wingtard' and the derivation from 'wingnut', 'moonbat' and so forth. Laughing the whole time, you know how it is. She wandered away saying something about me needing 'rest.' You know how it is. But it was damn funny. :)
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )to Jordan. Salut!
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )I thought catchy already announced my retirement? He said I need to spend time with my family. Whatever that means, heh. (Deftly dodges flying flatware.)
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )forms catchy put in front of you after the peppermint schnapps shooter contest that night in that fern bar in Sausalito? Tell that to the credit reporting bureaus and you'll win a prize.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )kreplach! That's it, from now on I'm standing with my back to this floor-length black velvet curtain, the one with the moonlight and fog machine behind it. It's the only way to protect myself against you people, and besides, the creepy piano music is louder over here.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Thanks for the good wishes. Now let's resume fighting. :)
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Happy Birthday, old man!
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Did the math and decided that I'm 44 (which was nice) but next year I'll be 34 (even better).
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )but when we met for drinks, the waitress asked me how long it had been since I saw my Dad.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )Thanks, brother. But there will be consequences. :)
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Thanks for teeing that one up for me. On to more serious stuff.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )*Scott dodges a shower of broken glass, and more than a few stones*
Dude, warn me when you're going to do that.
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| parent )courtesy of kos:
Kos also links to this poll showing a continued bounce for Clinton.
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)so it's hard to comment. Here's the Gallup results from the Kos link:
03/18/08 - 45%
03/17/08 - 46%
03/16/08 - 47%
03/15/08 - 46%
03/14/08 - 50%
03/13/08 - 48%
* * *
03/09/08 - 45%
* * *
03/01/08 - 45%
Hard to see much of a pattern there; more like a sine wave.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )It's still bloody March. I think polls are of limited use this early on.
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| parent )You don't need to convince me of your point - just look at the exit polls on the last presidential election. Can't get much closer than that to the actual voting; pollsters couldn't have blown it much worse, either.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )The only important poll is on November 4. A lot can happen between now and then. Personally, I think this election will be a referendum on the Bush Presidency, and, given the state of the economy, I don't see how that bodes well for the GOP.
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| parent )statement by me saying otherwise. The simple question here is whether Obama's standing with voters has been materially hurt by the Wright affair. I think the answer is yes - eight months before the election. That's all.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )I'd be shocked if they didn't. But I'll also be shocked if the public doesn't respond to Obama's adroit handling of the issue, or if this is enough to allow McCain to beat him.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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)Too soon to isolate out Reverend Wright.
--Fence post turtles -- They don't get up there by themselves, some moron had to put 'em there.
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)gotta keep things here in perspective.
As one on the original people very upset with the la affair Wright....I will note that Obama's shifting of the conversation to Iraq today was....adroitly done and smart.
He's being nimble on his feet in controlling the conversation.
If he can continue to dance like Fred Astair, he'll be fine.
Bu the way this is pretty weird:
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| parent )Hillary cannot win the nomination now without a lightning strike of some kind.
At least I certainly hope so, since I put a fair amount of money on Obama at 1.35:1 right after the OH/TX primaries.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )Words fail me. My eyes.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )I musta missed that debate. Seems very real to life, actually.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )good though the timing may be coincidental. I'm jut not aware of other stuff Obama and Clinton might be doing because the Wright noise is interfering right now.
(and by "noise" I'm not trying to say we've seen the end of Wright videos, just that by now everyone's seen them, heard Obama's speech, and should have enough data to decide on the significance of either or both.)
Can't resist saying, though, that "Grandma was a racist" is a low blow IMO, one that Obama could have done without.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent ). . .reminded me of all of the lefties complaining about how mean it was for Clarence Thomas to repeat his sister's complaints about her welfare check being late. I suppose Black Jesus is to be considered above such loyalty-based criticisms.*
*--Of course, Jesse Jackson is on record as being relieved-- when walking on a street late at night--when he realizes that the person behind him is white, but hey: he's not a white grandmother, so that's OK.
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| parent )This is the favored approach by Ingram and the Wingtard Brigade - which I firmly do not believe you are a part of, btw -- becuz it's easy, doesn't require much thinking, and sounds good in a quick digestible bite suitable for an audience reeling drunk on Wing Dings.
However. It's a rather simple-minded generalization regarding a comment that requires, wait for it...a more nuanced view of both rhetoric and, you know, reality.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )-o-o-o-
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )and thinking about how bad you would have to want something if you had to out her on national TV. Nuance away; you know how unsophisticated most people are about their feelings for their grandparents. (Though I admit that I had no feelings at all for my own grandmother until the beautiful Laura told me I should.)
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )You really heard Obama's remarks as "outing" his grandmother or throwing her from the train?
Really?
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )But let's first look at Obama's exact words:
my white grandmother . . . who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.
First, you agree that "racial stereotypes" here means what in a less constrained context would simply be called "racist", right? That's certainly the message I got.
Second, Obama and I have in common relatives that say things we find very offensive w/r/t black people. I show my disapproval where I can, and make sure my son doesn't hear them. But never in a million years would I stand up in public and finger them, no matter what the prize.
To me this is extremely simple and easy to understand: every speech anyone gives on the campaign trail inevitably is a compromise between conflicting interests (here, another's privacy vs. making a point about the candidate's gulf-closing background). This is one he picked. It doesn't offend me personally, but it's just not something many people would do. Would you?
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )It gets back to the parsing-Wordsworth comment I made about conservative reactions to Obama's rhetoric. In the context of his speech it is very clear that he is saying that his white grandmother is not a racist or a bad person, even though she may harbor racial fears or resentments or bitterness -- which may, to some extent, be justified, as he made clear earlier. He's holding her up as an example of someone he loves very much who sometimes says intemperate things, and asking us not to judge her on that basis but to try to understand and love the whole person.
The parsing is not only tone-deaf but interestingly selective. If, as BD believes, Obama was drawing an "equivalence" between Wright and his grandma; and if, as you believe, he was throwing her under the bus; wouldn't it necessarily follow that he was throwing Wright under the bus too? And isn't that exactly what you guys thought he should do? Is it possible to argue that he was praising Wright and damning Grandma at the same time?
If you guys can turn a heartfelt plea for racial tolerance and understanding into a simultaneous repudiation of his grandmother and embrace of Wright's 9/11 truthiness, all I can say is that you were probably going to hear those things no matter what he said. I don't mean to cross the comment/commenter line, and I certainly do not think you are a racist, but it's hard for me to see a consistent, unbiased point of view that would arrive at such a conclusion.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )As I've said in other comments, Obama showed that he has perfect pitch; of course, whether it is the greatest speech ever made in X years on Y subject requires a perspective longer than a few days. But anyway, the "living between two worlds" point was one Obama wanted/needed to make. It could have been made in a number of ways by one as articulate as him; he chose to do it by alluding to racially tinged statements by his grandmother. That is not something I would do, no matter how badly I wanted high office. Obviously that's a purely personal view; some will agree, some not. That's all.
The "Throw Momma From The Train" line is in quotes because it is a specific reference an execrable Danny DeVito movie that should bemuse Harley on his b'day - nothing more.
I've never even suggested that Barack Obama has "embraced Wright's 9/11 truthiness" so I honestly don't understand your comment on that point.
AFA Obama throwing Wright under the bus, he already did so in his HuffPo statement the day after the videos were televised. His second speech is actually a slight retreat from that position for what I believe are purely tactical reasons, but that's a discussion for another post.
No speech, even a great one, is perfect. I ought to be able to express my opinion on one part without people concluding I've rejected the whole of it. Not saying you are, snk, but there's some people here take any criticism of Obama, no matter how slight, very personally. Which of course just makes my own behavior worse. %^>
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )nt
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )First, let's fix those wildly dishonest ellipsis points.
That's a wonderfully open and honest way to show that racism, in all its forms, is not simply the pastime of haters, but rather something that is often found in all of us. Even those whom we love.
But by all means, stick with the meme. Now if we can just find a picture of his grandmother holding a Herbert Marcuse book. Paydirt!!
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )"Wildly dishonest ellipsis points"? Someone's a prickly porcupine today. Everyone reading this has access to a copy of the speech. To Obama, and obviously to you telling the world that grandma made racially tinged comments from time to time is OK to make a broader point. Me, I would've tried to make the point another way. That's really all there is to it.
You're going to peak way early and exhaust yourself long before November if you respond to anything that is at all critical of your hero as if it were the end of the world. Don't worry, he'll survive, but I worry about you.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )I am definitely peaking WAY too soon. If I had the gumption, and I love gumption, I'd simply absent myself from all the madness until he locks up the nomination.
And then, of course, get crazy all over again. :)
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )But when you see your favorite veteran linebacker out on the field, you want him to save something for that last five minutes of the game, even if you aren't playing Denver.
You're up pretty late, b'day boy. Too much coffee with that Smowqualmie takeout pie slice you scarfed for dessert?
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )Best moment from my birthday dinner. Guest thought it was crazy that there was a dating site for people whose name begins with 'J'.
J-Date, in other words.
We of course were only to happy to inform her that in fact this was a dating site for Jewish singles. But damn I love that idea.
My name is Jim. I want to meet a girl named Jane. Where else am I going to go?
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )-o-o-o-
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )(Bless both their hearts)
Eons ago while living in southern CA, I managed to work myself into a serious case of lust for a tall, gorgeous girl who shared a number of the late Ms. Wayne's...attributes. I got myself invited to a get-together she was attending as well and, fortified by a couple of beers, worked my way into a game of charades she was playing with some other guests. She was mesmerizing...I was done for.
Came her turn. "Two words", she signaled. After many minutes of watching her make flapping movements with her arms, gasping movements with her mouth and lips and strange, spasmodic leg motions, we exhausted all of our guesses and gave in. We were stumped.
Exasperated and upset, she curtly informed us that the phrase was "Vicious Cycle". In her frustration, she even spelled it out for us:
"f-i-s-h-e-s...c-y-c-l-e"
Unfortunately, and as opposed to dear Carol and Gilda, it wasn't an act.
--Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. - W. Somerset Maugham
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| parent )-o-k-o-
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )some people are going to see it as throwing Grandma under the bus no matter what you, the text of the speech or common sense say. It's like arguing with conservative true believers over whether Iraq has been a success or not. Conversation ain't going to shake those core beliefs, facts have nothing to do with it.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )...but experience has shown me that people who say things like, "conversation ain't going to shake those core beliefs, facts have nothing to do with it" coincidentally tend to be the ones who can't be shaken from their own core beliefs, and facts are selected as a matter of confirmation bias.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )Let's divide a cake.
I ask for all the cake.
You ask for 1/2 the cake.
I get 3/4 of the cake, because that's the outcome that's between the two of us.
Fairness rules!
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )If you can find someone to play that game...
...you go girl!
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )I don't understand why you think I should.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )That's the game you *think* we're playing.
Which is sort of the point.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )You are correct that most people project -- that what they're accusing others of is precisely what they are doing. Hence the racist commentary on how Obama's pastor is racist, the conservative complaint regarding ideological bias against them in the highly pro-conservative Traditional Media, the bizarre assertion that the environmental movement is about control of private lives by those who assert that the government should control even the most intimate aspects of such, etc. etc.
The question you have to ask yourself is -- is the average poster here actually as unexamined and/or foolish as the average person -- or even within one standard deviation of such? Because I think you're applying a rule that's very good for the general population to a subpopulation for which it is absolutely terrible. And being extremely offensive in the process.
Simply put, one of the folks involved in the debate here posted an entire diary based on a patently false premise. The folks on the opposite side didn't. Applying any rule equally to both sides is giving the folks saying patently false things 3/4 of the cake.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )Don't you have to ask the commenter his/her skin color first, just to close your particular political circle?
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )But much of this is based on a weird disconnect. Folks are willing to assume, and readily, that a white guy can separate himself from the teachings of his church. That would be Mittt Romney. But when it comes to a black guy? Forget it. Have you seen those churches? They're running around and fallin' down and singing out loud and there's no way that Obama is not a secret carrier of the worst of his pastor's sins.
That's based on racism. However unconscious. I asked Bird to respond specifically to this. Did he hold Romney to the same standard, not about his pastor, but about his religion? And if not, why not?
I'm yet to get a reply. But I'm eager to hear his thinking on the matter. My more detailed questions to him are here.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Can't see your questions because I can't get there.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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| parent )Did you read the Book of Mormon and make assumptions about Mitt Romney's fitness to be president?
Did you research the history of Joseph Smith and make assumptions about the kind of inner circile Romney might bring to the WH?
If not, why not? And why do you find it so easy to go down this loopy road when it comes to Obama? (And the inner circle comment is one of the loopiest you've ever written.)
That's easy. I said it once, and I'll say it again. How sad that some folks find it so easy and natural to separate a white man from his religion when, only a short time later, they find it impossible to do the same for a black man and his pastor. The white man, dontcha know, is assumed to have the ability to separate out the less productive aspects of his religion. But the black man? No way. Have you seen those churches? They're rollin' around and clappin' their hands and singin' at the top of their lungs. Falling down in faints, too! There is, therefore, no way the black man cannot be carrying his pastor's secret sins inside him. Unlike the white man, he does not have the ability to discern the difference between the good and bad in that context.
And lastly, there's really no need to answer those questions. We all know the answers already.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Listen to Bronwen Exter of Science for Girls sing "14 Days." It's free.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )Didn't get it until the morning. But it put a nice comfy border on my hangover.
(I just Amazoned the Science For Girls record.)
Thanks.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )so you might want to listen to all for songs online b4 considering getting it. The beatmeister has a positive track record, but doesn't do much in this type of jazz style.
My problem is that I once knew someone with almost that exact voice, and things didn't end well. I thought I had put it behind me until I heard the song, but everything has its price, even free downloads.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )He specifically referenced Willie Horton, another Republican appeal to racism. So in his mind, the comments are either racist as such or designed to appeal to the racism of others.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )To me, Willie Horton epitomized the fact that Dukakis is a soft-on-crime liberal with wrong ideas. What's more, it was Al Gore who started it. Atwater picked up the ball and ran with it. It isn't the race, it's the issue.
On the other hand, your statements make clear that you're a conservative bigot.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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| parent )could you point to a transcript or link to an actual quotation from Al Gore regarding Mr. Horton?
Actually, before you waste your time, let me rephrase -- given that such a quotation does not exist, could you please stop slandering Mr. Gore and engaging in the Eternal Conservative Victimhood Complex on this issue?
Al Gore mentioned the furlough program. The Republican Party added the SCARY BLACK MAN frame. One is a policy discussion, and the other is an appeal to racism.*
*Yes, yes, no Republican has actually appealed to racism in our lifetimes, because racism is dead, and besides the Demoncrat Party are the real racists, keeping African-Americans on the plantation.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )Here. Quote:
I will grant you that Gore didn't mention Horton by name, but he brought up the furlough program. The Bush also used the furlough program, only they used the worst offender of the furlough program as an example of Dukakis' wrongheaded soft-on-crime liberalism. Whether you think that's racist is a matter of your own bigoted opinion.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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| parent )1) Why was Mr. Horton's nickname instead of legal name used? He goes by William Horton, and that's his legal name besides. The decision to change his name to a diminuitive was racial.
2) Why was the mugshot left out of the ad at first, then added later? The official version is that the pic would be too intense for network execs -- that it was too inflammatory.
3) Why are most of the folks going into the prison in the revolving door ad white, while most of the folks leaving are black or Hispanic?
The issue was worth bringing up. Horton was an appeal to racism, and the manner in which he was presented makes that clear.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )Right, wrong or otherwise there are many white people who are scared of angry looking black men. Do you deny that those fears existed in 1988? Do you deny that Atwater was playing upon those fears?
--But she's a queen, and such are queens
that your laughter is sucked in their brains. -D. Bowie
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| parent )on the streets, too. News alert: some of them aren't even black.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )Choosing Willie Horton to be the poster boy for this crappy program had nothing to do with his race?
--But she's a queen, and such are queens
that your laughter is sucked in their brains. -D. Bowie
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| parent )It was changed for the ad to make him sound more black.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )So you are claiming that Mr. Horton always went by his given name "William", and that it was changed exclusively for the ad to the allegedly more ominous "Willie"; yet this is the first time I've ever heard that particular idea.
How exactly do you *know* this?
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )I checked into it, and apparently it's true. Atwater changed the guy's name as part of the overall strategy.
How do you know it has to be true? Because the newspaper that got a Pulitzer Prize for its reportage on the furlough program never uses Willie.
The man's name was William. He went by William. Court records and documents refer to him as William. Atwater successfully changed the name to make him sound poorer and blacker.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )So this Atwater guy called the murderer (or was it rapist?) William Horton "Willie."
Well. How perfectly ghastly of him.
--God help the while, a bad world I say.
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| parent )