Jimmy Carter – Plagiarist, Liar and Anti-Semite

Submitted by tomsyl on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 2:36pm. Tags:

The video of Jimmy Carter being called an anti-Semite on C-Span has already made the rounds and has been watched extensively on YouTube. Now comes news that Kenneth W. Stein, a professor at Emory University who was the Mideast Fellow at the Carter Center, has resigned in disgust over Carter's latest book, Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid. I have not and will not read anything published by Carter. However, according the the http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/06/AR2006120602171.html"> Washington Post, the book compares the situation in Israel to Apartheid in South Africa (guess who plays the Afrikaners?) and concludes that "Israel's continued control and colonization of Palestinian land have been the primary obstacles to a comprehensive peace agreement in the Holy Land."

Dr. Stein gave the reasons for his resignation in a detailed email, in which he stated the following:

President Carter's book on the Middle East, a title too inflammatory to even print, is not based on unvarnished analyses; it is replete with factual errors, copied materials not cited, superficialities, glaring omissions, and simply invented segments. Aside from the one-sided nature of the book, meant to provoke, there are recollections cited from meetings where I was the third person in the room, and my notes of those meetings show little similarity to points claimed in the book. Being a former President does not give one a unique privilege to invent information or to unpack it with cuts, deftly slanted to provide a particular outlook.

***

My continued association with the Center leaves the impression that I am sanctioning a series of egregious errors and polemical conclusions which appeared in President Carter's book. I can not allow that impression to stand.

I believe that objective historians will rightly brand Carter as the worst chief executive of the Twentieth Century, standing head and shoulders above any competition. His pathetic paralysis during the Iran hostage crisis did much to embolden our enemies in the Mideast, and significantly eroded this country's self-confidence. His "malaise" (his term, of course) and spinelessness as president showed in his erratic domestic and foreign policies, one of many reasons he was thrown out on his ear by voters. I loved this comment by Reagan during the campaign: "A recession is when your neighbor loses his job. A depression is when you lose yours. And recovery is when Jimmy Carter loses his." During his term even liberals wished for the return of Gerald Ford, and Ronald Reagan gave Carter a much-deserved boot by besting him in one of the most lopsided presidential elections ever. Reagan beat Carter by 10% of the popular vote, and in the Electoral College by 489 to 49.

Of course, Carter also is in a class of his own when it comes to high-profile, arrogant and extremist misbehavior as an ex-president. He's never met a dictator who isn't worthy of an embrace, a chat and a glass of champagne. He never misses a chance to attack the Bush administration, US foreign policy or Israel.

Has anyone seen Jimmy Carter's remote control? I want to hit the "mute" button. But I should have known – Hugo Chavez was given the remote by Castro, and owns it for the duration.

Carter's legacy ultimately and exclusively will be defined by The Attack of the Killer Rabbit.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Carter's cowardice is no surprise (#19801)
by tomsyl on Sat, 12/23/2006 - 9:59am

I'll let Alan Dershowitz speak for himself. Carter's mouth has gotten bigger and his morals have diminished since he was in office, but at heart he'll always be scared of that rabbit.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( )
Terrified By Mythical Monsters. . . (#19816)
by M Scott Eiland on Sat, 12/23/2006 - 12:10pm

. . .he chose to protect his psyche by cozying up to real ones.

--

( | parent )
Anyone have evidence (#16595)
by Bill White on Sun, 12/10/2006 - 12:17pm

rather than accusations concerning plagiarism or lying or anti-Semitism?

I mean quotes from the book and proof going the other way?

--

The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.

( )
So can we question Jimmy Carter's motives now? (#16590)
by marlowe on Sun, 12/10/2006 - 11:43am

Please?

--

Where I stand

( )
Two who fight back against the Carter-bashing campaign (#16344)
by pumpkin ash on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 10:38pm

Thank You, Jimmy Carter. by Rabbi Michael Lerner

Jimmy Carter was the best friend the Jews ever had as president of the United States.

He is the only president to have actually delivered for the Jewish people an agreement (the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt) that has stood the test of time. Since the treaty, there have been bad vibes between Israel and Egypt, but never a return to war, once Israel fully withdrew from the territories it conquered in Egypt during the 1967 war.

To get that agreement, Carter had to twist the arms of Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat. Sometimes that is what real friends do—they push you into a path that is really in your best interest at times when there is an emergency and you are acting self-destructively.

When the U.S. government is following a self-destructive policy, even a policy backed by people in both major political parties, its best friends are those who try to change its direction and are not afraid to offer intense critique. That’s why a majority of Americans, and 86 percent of American Jews, voted in the 2006 midterm elections to reject Bush’s war in Iraq and his policies suspending habeas corpus and legitimating wire-tapping and torture. Not because we were disloyal, but precisely because we love America enough to challenge its policies even when Vice President Cheney questions our loyalty. We know that critique is often an essential part of love and caring.

That is precisely what Jimmy Carter is trying to do for Israel and the Jewish people in his new book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.

So it’s astounding to see the assault on Carter that has been launched by the ADL chair Abe Foxman, law professor Alan Dershowitz and a bevy of other representatives of the Jewish community. I recently received a mailing from our local Jewish Community Relations Council containing four such attacks on Carter, with zero representation of American Jews who support the Israeli peace movement.

Words Even an Ex-President Can't Say in America
The Media Lynching of Jimmy Carter By NORMAN FINKELSTEIN

It seems Israel's "supporters" have conscripted me in their lynching of Jimmy Carter. Count me out. True, the historical part of Carter's book, Palestine Peace Not Apartheid, contains errors in that it repeats standard Israeli propaganda. However, Carter's analysis of the impasse in the "peace process" as well as his description of Israeli policy in the West Bank is accurate - and, frankly, that's all that matters.

A wag once said that there is no Pravda (Truth) in Izvestia (News) and no Izvestia in Pravda. The same can be said of our Pravda (The New York Times) and Izvestia (The Washington Post). Today both party organs ran feature stories trashing Carter using Kenneth Stein's resignation from the Carter Center as the hook. (I was sitting in the airport when this earth-shattering story came on CNN.) But like John Galt, many people must have wondered, Who (the hell) is Kenneth Stein? Stein wrote exactly one scholarly book on the Israel-Palestine conflict more than two decades ago (The Land Question in Palestine, 1984). Even in his heyday, Stein was a nonentity. When Joan Peters's hoax From Time Immemorial was published, I asked his opinion of it. He replied that it had "good points and bad points." Just like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Later Stein wrote a sick essay the main thesis of which was, "the Palestinian Arab community had been significantly prone to dispossession and dislocation before the mass exodus from Palestine began" - so the Zionist ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948 was really no big deal ("One Hundred Years of Social Change: The Creation of the Palestinian Refugee Probem," in Laurence Silberstein (ed.), New Perspectives on Israeli History, 1991).

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( )
Two questions for you, p.a.: (#16365)
by tomsyl on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 11:53pm

-who's more intelligent and articulate, Norman Finkelstein or Alan Dershowitz? Click on one of their debates on the web and draw your own conclusion about who's the anti-Semite here.

-do you subscribe to Tikkun? IIRC, it was big for a while among the Clintonistas. Maybe some back issues are still available, and you can pick up on some of Lerner's Deep Thoughts. Assuming, that is, that you can keep a straight face through one of his editorials.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
They did have a running academic feud a while back (#16442)
by pumpkin ash on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 9:44am

interestingly enough, over the charges of plagiarism and unethical scholarship in one of Alan Dershowitz's (advocate for state-sponsored torture, the First Amendment, and aggressive-oppressive Israeli policies) books.

See: Dershowitz-Finkelstein affair

Shortly after the publication of the book The Case for Israel, Norman Finkelstein accused its author, Alan Dershowitz of "fraud, falsification, plagiarism and nonsense", claiming that Dershowitz had plagiarized Joan Peters's controversial book From Time Immemorial. Finkelstein expanded his findings in a book entitled Beyond Chutzpah. Dershowitz has denied the charges. Former Harvard president Derek Bok exonerated Dershowitz of the plagiarism charges,[1] while Amherst professor Sayres Rudy claimed that the charges were justified.[2]

More stuff re: Dershowitz-Finkelstein dustups

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
That's really a diversion (#16472)
by tomsyl on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 2:04pm

Dershowitz's book (which I recommend if you want to know both sides of the story, not just that of the Palestinians which you support so deeply) refutes just about everything Carter says his book is about.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
Dershowitz: defender of torture, OJ, and Israel's misTx of P's (#16477)
by pumpkin ash on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 2:37pm

Finkelstein got Alan's number, and he got it right, in my book.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
Of Course, As My Prefered Method, I'll Let Jimmy Speak for.... (#16415)
by Traveller on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 1:37am

...Himself, instead of other people putting words in his mouth and afixing labels to him. To wit, from today's LAT:

With some degree of reluctance and some uncertainty about the reception my book would receive, I used maps, text and documents to describe the situation accurately and to analyze the only possible path to peace: Israelis and Palestinians living side by side within their own internationally recognized boundaries. These options are consistent with key U.N. resolutions supported by the U.S. and Israel, official American policy since 1967, agreements consummated by Israeli leaders and their governments in 1978 and 1993 (for which they earned Nobel Peace Prizes), the Arab League's offer to recognize Israel in 2002 and the International Quartet's "Roadmap for Peace," which has been accepted by the PLO and largely rejected by Israel.

The book is devoted to circumstances and events in Palestine and not in Israel, where democracy prevails and citizens live together and are legally guaranteed equal status.

(text omitted)

The book describes the abominable oppression and persecution in the occupied Palestinian territories, with a rigid system of required passes and strict segregation between Palestine's citizens and Jewish settlers in the West Bank. An enormous imprisonment wall is now under construction, snaking through what is left of Palestine to encompass more and more land for Israeli settlers. In many ways, this is more oppressive than what blacks lived under in South Africa during apartheid. I have made it clear that the motivation is not racism but the desire of a minority of Israelis to confiscate and colonize choice sites in Palestine, and then to forcefully suppress any objections from the displaced citizens. Obviously, I condemn any acts of terrorism or violence against innocent civilians, and I present information about the terrible casualties on both sides.

The ultimate purpose of my book is to present facts about the Middle East that are largely unknown in America, to precipitate discussion and to help restart peace talks (now absent for six years) that can lead to permanent peace for Israel and its neighbors. Another hope is that Jews and other Americans who share this same goal might be motivated to express their views, even publicly, and perhaps in concert.

******

By God, now that I read the above, I see the error of my ways...the guy is obviously bonkners! How could he adhear to such perposterous goals...

To the gallows with Jimmy...and then in the best Old English Tradition, disembowelment and fianlly drawn and quartered, his dead and lifeless body riven to the four corners of the Kingdom.

Serves him right, too!

Peace between the Israeli's and Palestinians? Fey and Ney!

Best Wishes,

Traveller

( | parent )
Here is link to full Carter op/ed piece on I/P in LAT (#16465)
by pumpkin ash on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 1:41pm

Speaking frankly about Israel and Palestine

Here is a part I thought especially interesting:

The many controversial issues concerning Palestine and the path to peace for Israel are intensely debated among Israelis and throughout other nations — but not in the United States. For the last 30 years, I have witnessed and experienced the severe restraints on any free and balanced discussion of the facts. This reluctance to criticize any policies of the Israeli government is because of the extraordinary lobbying efforts of the American-Israel Political Action Committee and the absence of any significant contrary voices.

It would be almost politically suicidal for members of Congress to espouse a balanced position between Israel and Palestine, to suggest that Israel comply with international law or to speak in defense of justice or human rights for Palestinians. Very few would ever deign to visit the Palestinian cities of Ramallah, Nablus, Hebron, Gaza City or even Bethlehem and talk to the beleaguered residents. What is even more difficult to comprehend is why the editorial pages of the major newspapers and magazines in the United States exercise similar self-restraint, quite contrary to private assessments expressed quite forcefully by their correspondents in the Holy Land.

[...]

Although I have spent only a week or so on a book tour so far, it is already possible to judge public and media reaction. Sales are brisk, and I have had interesting interviews on TV, including "Larry King Live," "Hardball," "Meet the Press," "The NewsHour With Jim Lehrer," the "Charlie Rose" show, C-SPAN and others. But I have seen few news stories in major newspapers about what I have written.

Book reviews in the mainstream media have been written mostly by representatives of Jewish organizations who would be unlikely to visit the occupied territories, and their primary criticism is that the book is anti-Israel. Two members of Congress have been publicly critical. Incoming House Speaker Nancy Pelosi for instance, issued a statement (before the book was published) [Hmmm?? What little birdies could have whispered news of Carter's book and its topic into Pelosi's ear before it was published, and were able to 'motivate' Nancy to come out publically with a preemptive disclaimer against Carter's future book???--p.a] saying that "he does not speak for the Democratic Party on Israel." Some reviews posted on Amazon.com call me "anti-Semitic," and others accuse the book of "lies" and "distortions." A former Carter Center fellow has taken issue with it, and Alan Dershowitz called the book's title "indecent."

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
Carter's a Viciously Anti-Semitic Bastard (#89384)
by Anonymous on Fri, 04/11/2008 - 7:18am

pumpkin ash wrote:
Speaking frankly about Israel and Palestine

[Carter wrote] because of the extraordinary lobbying efforts of the American-Israel Political Action Committee and the absence of any significant contrary voices.

AIPAC is NOT a Political Action Committee in either literal or figurative sense.

Self-designated "expert" Carter got such a basic thing as its name wrong: It's the "American Israel Public Affairs Committee."

The Carter bastard should hurry up and get the pancreatic cancer his siblings got.

( | parent )
Carter should get pancreatic cancer like his siblings. (#89388)
by Jordan on Fri, 04/11/2008 - 9:16am

Yep, exactly the kind of bloodthirsty, venomous garbage we're happy to see very, very rarely on this site. Thanks for abusing our open registration period. Your last sentence is a posting rule violation (profane in at least 3 ways, IMO), and this constitutes your first & last warning. Being a multipartisan political site, we don't ban for ideological leaning, but we do suspend and/or ban for this kind of vicious stupidity.

Posting Rules are here:
http://theforvm.org/faq_user

--

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire

( | parent )
Here we go... (#89386)
by Wagster on Fri, 04/11/2008 - 7:40am

Advocacy of a balanced position on Israel-Palestine is "vicious" anti-semitism. I don't know why anyone thinks that there's bullies on one side of this argument.

( | parent )
You guys do realize this diary is over 2 years old, right? -nt- (#89387)
by Jordan on Fri, 04/11/2008 - 8:35am

.

--

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
–Voltaire

( | parent )
"To get that agreement" (#16350)
by Timmy on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 11:04pm

he had to pay them both off.

BTW, who the hell is Finkelstein?

--

““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!””
–H

( | parent )
Norman G. Finkelstein (#16445)
by pumpkin ash on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 10:13am

is an articulate and somewhat pugnacious/iconoclastic US scholar on the subjects of behavior of the state of Israel and the I/P situation:

From [/b]Wikipedia:

Norman G. Finkelstein (born December 8, 1953) is a professor of political science and controversial American author. The son of Holocaust survivors, Finkelstein is known for his writings pertaining to the behaviour of the state of Israel, especially in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and for his view that the Holocaust is being exploited for personal financial gain and pro-Israel political ends.
[...]
Finkelstein grew up in New York City; his parents were Polish Jews who moved to New York after surviving the Majdanek and Auschwitz concentration camps. He completed his undergraduate studies at Binghamton University in New York in 1974, after which he studied at the École Pratique des Hautes Études in Paris. He went on to earn his Master's degree in political science from Princeton University in 1980, and later his PhD in political studies, also from Princeton. Finkelstein wrote his doctoral thesis on Zionism, and it was through this work that he first attracted controversy. Finkelstein has taught at Rutgers, New York University, Brooklyn College, and Hunter College and currently teaches at DePaul University in Chicago.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
Finkelstein is a Palestinian hero (#16360)
by tomsyl on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 11:44pm

Lauded here. Apparently he's considered to be Noam Chomsky's younger, dimmer brother on the Holocaust minimization trail.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
And Here is something for you to read (#16461)
by pumpkin ash on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 12:19pm

How to Lose Friends and Alienate People. A Conversation with Professor Norman Finkelstein

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
p.a., I already told you what I think of Counterpunch (#16475)
by tomsyl on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 2:13pm

So citing a fawning piece about Finkelstein from there doesn't enhance his credibility.

I know who Finkelstein is: he's the Jew people link you trot out when they want to attack the Israeli's right to survive as a nation. In a way he's like the parent of a 9/11 victim in that he believes the fact that his parents are Holocaust survivors gives him special credibility to minimize the Holocaust.I'm no Dershowitz fan, but Finkelstein's not fit to tie AD's shoes.

anyway, cite Finkelstein all you want, just don't try to pretend he's mainstream or respected. As my cite to the Palestinian movement page above shows, his principal supporters are the Palestinians that want to destroy Israel.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
just another self-cleaning Jew (#16535)
by Micky Love on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 10:37pm

I don't know exactly what you have against COUNTERPUNCH, but I think it's probably the best "hard left" publication on the net. If you distrust it, perhaps you can recommend a better one.

I was googling "Heroin, Nepal and Royal", and Joe Pietri's work in Counterpunch was the only coverage I could find. There was nothing in Time, or CBS or the other corporate press. I later discovered that the allegations against the Nepali Royals were common currency in Nepal. Counterpunch proved itself a valuable window onto an issue that was otherwise ignored.

By ignoring Counterpunch, you are closing yourself off to facts and opinion that are otherwise unavailable. This is certainly true with Finkelstein's work. Dismissing him as just another self cleaning Jew is intellectual dishonesty.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

( | parent )
Based on your post, I'll give that article a look, but here (#16581)
by tomsyl on Sun, 12/10/2006 - 3:13am

I am familiar with the Finkelstein/Dershewitz debate because I've read both sides of the story - Dershowitz's book and extensive essays by Finkelstein attacking same; p.a. apparently has read neither, and is letting Counterpunch tell him what he should think. I get the impression he'd never heard of Finkelstein until this diary was published yesterday. p.a., jump in if I'm wrong and you've been following Finkelstein before now, and I'll stand corrected.

My familiarity with Counterpunch comes mainly from listening to parts of the its hour radio show the local NPR affiliate plays. AFA better far-left publications are concerned, how would I know? Perhaps others here can help you.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
First time I learned of NF was ~4 years ago (#16598)
by pumpkin ash on Sun, 12/10/2006 - 1:19pm

on C-SPAN (natch) when they televised a Finkelstein book ('Holocaust industry' iirc) tour presentation. I thought he was very effective and articulate in making his case.

I have seen him several time since then on Amy Goodman's Democracy Now (here, here and here) speaking on various topics, including an on-air debate face-to-face with Alan Dershowitz [during which I recall NF made AD look like AD had early-onset AD, but watch it and judge for yourself.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
Then I stand corrected, p.a. (#16601)
by tomsyl on Sun, 12/10/2006 - 1:43pm

re how long you've been following this. Sorry.

As I said previously, I'm no fan of Dershowitz. He's a publicity hog, and I think his stances on Simpson, torture, Homeland security, the ACLU, and a lot of other issues are shallow, sensational BS aimed at getting him on talk shows. But I find much of his arguments on the history of Israel, the "right of return" and the conflict in general. As I understand it, many of those arguments were expressed publicly when Harvard started talking about divesting seriously. He offered to publicly debate anyone there on the issues, and no one accepted his challenge (although part of that could be due to fear of his debating skills). To me that says a lot about the strength of his arguments.

Anyway, I bought his book and found it pretty compelling. Then I followed up on the critiques of Finkelstein and others. There were the typical ad hom attacks, the plagiarism claim that had nothing to do with the thrust of Derwhowitz's arguments, and a lot of smoke and noise, but (IMO) no real substance. And Finkelstein was exposed as a fanatic and a tool of the Palestinian cause in the process.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
Too bad you didn't read that NF interview (#16479)
by pumpkin ash on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 2:47pm

and choose instead to figuratively stick your fingers in your ears and do the 'laaa-laaa-I-can't-hear-you' song.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
p.a., get back to me when you're up to speed (#16486)
by tomsyl on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 4:00pm

from original source material (not moonbat websites) re: what Dershowitz stands for and has said. You can't credibly slag him without doing that first. Why, that would be like me listening to your critics without reading your posts first. %^>

Counterpunch sucks. There's nothing you can do about that. If someone wants to swim in the cesspool, that's their choice, but I ain't diving in after them.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
Heh (#16496)
by pumpkin ash on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 4:57pm

I've paid attention to Dershowitz going all the way back to the Claus Von Bulow trial made-for-TV movie, and thought he was a decent enough fellow--until he started getting really strident and wild-eyed promoting/rationalizing (along with the flacks from the Manhattan, Inst, AEI, FDD, and couple other 'out-there' neocon pressure tanks) state-sponsored torture. From then on, things have really gone down-hill with Dershowitz,imo.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
Fair enough - sort of. (#16513)
by tomsyl on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 6:54pm

Dershowitz is a publicity hound and a jerk, and I'm no fan. But he's also a scholar, and I found his book persuasive. His opponents must have, too, given the amount of effort they spend attacking him personally.

His support of torture is along the lines of having a captured prisoner who know the location of a bomb that's about to go off and kill innocents. There's been plenty of discussion here, pro and con, on that subject. I can guess where you come out, and feel sorry for the victims.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
Thanks-nt (#16361)
by Timmy on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 11:45pm

VVVV

--

““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!””
–H

( | parent )
Kenneth W. Stein Letter of explanation of plagiarism charge (#16166)
by pumpkin ash on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 11:10am

Professor Kenneth W Stein explains resignation from Carter Center

www.ismi.emory.edu

Hi-

This note is to inform you that yesterday, I sent letters to President Jimmy Carter, Emory University President Jim Wagner, and Dr. John Hardman, Executive Director of the Carter Center resigning my position, effectively immediately, as Middle East Fellow of the Carter Center of Emory University.

This ends my 23 year association with an institution that in some small way I helped shape and develop.

My joint academic position in Emory College in the History and Political Science Departments, and, as Director of the Emory Institute for the Study of Modern Israel remains unchanged.

Many still believe that I have an active association with the Center and, act as an adviser to President Carter, neither is the case. President Carter has intermittently continued to come to the Arab-Israeli Conflict class I
teach in Emory College. He gives undergraduate students a fine first hand recollection of the Begin-Sadat negotiations of the late 1970s. Since I left the Center physically thirteen years ago, the Middle East program of the Center has waned as has my status as a Carter Center Fellow. For the record,I had nothing to do with the research, preparation, writing, or review of President Carter's recent publication. Any material which he used from the book we did together in 1984, The Blood of Abraham, he used unilaterally.

President Carter's book on the Middle East, a title too inflammatory to even print, is not based on unvarnished analyses; it is replete with factual errors, copied materials not cited, superficialities, glaring omissions, and simply invented segments. Aside from the one-sided nature of the book, meant to provoke, there are recollections cited from meetings where I was the
third person in the room, and my notes of those meetings show little similarity to points claimed in the book. Being a former President does not give one a unique privilege to invent information or to unpack it with cuts, deftly slanted to provide a particular outlook. Having little access to
Arabic and Hebrew sources, I believe, clearly handicapped his understanding and analyses of how history has unfolded over the last decade. Falsehoods, if repeated often enough become meta-truths, and they then can become the erroneous baseline for shaping and reinforcing attitudes and for
policy-making. The history and interpretation of the Arab-Israeli conflict is already drowning in half-truths, suppositions, and self-serving myths; more are not necessary. In due course, I shall detail these points and
reflect on their origins.

Is it plagiarism to use a passage from a book you yourself co-authored 22 years ago, apparently without the prior approval of one of your coathors, who was working and getting paid in your institute at the time the "plagiarized" book was penned?

I don't know. This plagiarism charge/innuendo smells like a case of highly theatrical histrionics aimed to smear President Carter, so far without much basis in detailed fact presented.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( )
Uh, p.a., not to be too pointed about this, but (#16368)
by tomsyl on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 11:56pm

the link to that email was in the diary already.

The pixels you save may be your own.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
Ah, but a mere unbolded link is such a fleeting and (#16456)
by pumpkin ash on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 2:28pm

easily overlooked thing. A thing that does not convey the tone and aroma of that curious email.

And the passage you chose to quote [?? Perhaps next time you might use the "quote" html tool to make that more evident to some of the more lazy/weak-eyed readers/scanners of your diaries like myself] did not even include the key sentence on which all of Stein's charges/innuendo of plagiarism are based:

Any material which he used from the book we did together in 1984, The Blood of Abraham, he used unilaterally.]

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
History (#16142)
by MaxSchrek on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 6:48am

may achieve a perspective through distance, one you
have not yet aquired and possibly never will.

None of the critical points you make are much
more than opinion, the behaviour that distresses
you is actually not much different and no worse
than other presidents.

Was his handshake with dicatator X more friendly
than Rummies with Saddam ?, get over it, diplomacy means
shaking some dodgy hands, better to be doing it as your
monitors fan out to check the elections or you bore
Dicatator X rigid with Human rights talk rather than
offer some cheap weapons to kill the neighbours.

And Carters ahead on points - hes the only one to
have got an Israeli and Arab peace deal on the table
and signed, follow that with your dancing sealions
kiddo.

--

Its just a model, you wouldn't want to bank on it.

( )
Generally disagree but think I like the dancing sealions (#16352)
by tomsyl on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 11:16pm

part. Can lobsters be substituted in a pinch?

You're right - the opinions expressed in the diary are opinions.

AFA distance is concerned, I lived through Carter's presidency, and I'm rumored to still be alive now, so I have the same historical perspective anyone else does who was alive and awake while he was president.

One of my strongly held opinions (that word again) is that Carter will go down in history as the worst (wort, according to one poster here) president of the 20th century. While the long-term effects of his time in office require perspective, the self-admitted "malaise" he brought on the country was there for anyone to view. Are you going to argue that he was a strong, decisive leader? An inspired speaker? Someone children looked up to and admired? A man who struck fear into the hearts of vicious rabbits and other rodents? I don't think so - his term as president resembled a slow-motion train wreck.

AFA Carter being a hero for delivering a peace accord in the ME, what do the people most affected - the Palestinians and the Jews - think about him? My impression, based in part on the reaction to his latest book, is that many Jews consider Carter an anti-Semite. Carter may be spraining his arm patting himself on the back for his efforts in the region, but if one of the groups he supposedly helped thinks he is prejudiced against them, how good of diplomat can the guy be?

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
Well yes its all opinions but lets (#16451)
by MaxSchrek on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 10:49am

start;

I avoid criticism of presidents without a historical
or relative comparison - what seems s%*t today may not
be in retrospect, problems that look in the control of
the president may be way beyond any administration so
temper negativity with a lot of salt - for all those
concerned, however some mistakes are always mistakes
see 'starting a land war in Asia'.

Malaise - whats that ?. You mean he caused the 1970s
fashions and long hair ?, or the economic downturn ?,
or the huge shift from inner cities to suburbs by the
affluent and the social/tax/economic effects ?.

A lot of the 1970s were beyond the scope of govts
in any country - especially the side burns thing.
I would not argue about strong, decisive leader or
great orators - seen the results of that kind of thing
and Ill go for quiet unassuming competance every time.

As for looking up to presidents people need to be
realistic and get a life, they are flawed people like
the rest, maybe more so.

If both sides think you biased against them
then your a good diplomat, same as if both think
your a life-long friend.

Oh and it was the Egyptians and Israelis not the
Palestinians. Whats being anti-semtic got to do with
it - thats anti-jews, anti-palestinians, anti-all of
them, or do you mean Israel did not get enough land
from the peace accord ?.

--

Its just a model, you wouldn't want to bank on it.

( | parent )
MaxS, I withdraw all prior posts! (#16485)
by tomsyl on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 3:49pm

And agree with you that presidents can't be critiqued without 40+ years of historical perspective. Please avoid posting your opinions on Bush until 2046. %^>

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
have u noted my comments on bush ? (#16896)
by MaxSchrek on Mon, 12/11/2006 - 5:39pm

..

--

Its just a model, you wouldn't want to bank on it.

( | parent )
"Malaise" was Carter's term (#16478)
by tomsyl on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 2:40pm

Well, not exactly; IIRC, it was a descriptor for a speech he gave describing the wounded spirit of the American people or somesuch. Blew up in his face.

Laugh about fashions all you want - if you were of age then, bet there are a few of you that make you wan to burn the negs.

How many years do you consider adequate for perspective on Carter's presidency?

Whaddayamean, "both sides"? Haven't heard the Palestinians reacting to his book, have you? They're too busy partying over the ISGR.

Who cares about the Egyptians? AFAIK, they're not who Carter thinks are being repressed according to his book.

AFA land, I distinctly recall a deal Arafat thumbed his nose at that required major land concessions from Israel. Do you still think land is the central issue here?

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
Man I had sideburns (#16483)
by MaxSchrek on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 3:37pm

you could have hid snipers in.

As for the Palestinians partying - really where?.
They are living in poverty behind closed borders and
being killed as they fight over ever dwindling resources.
Partying - not.

Yes his book is about the Palestinians - his peace deal
was the Egyptians, dont be tiresome and think all arabic
peoples are the same.

--

Its just a model, you wouldn't want to bank on it.

( | parent )
Post edited for profanity nt (#16469)
by HankP on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 1:57pm

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
Jimmy Carter is the finest (#16135)
by Elagabalus on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 4:05am

man that ever breathed! By signing this into law his name deserves a place among the pantheon of greats.

--

I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine

( )
I completely agree and bow to your superior knowledge (#16159)
by tomsyl on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 10:37am

I shortly will erase this diary - after my next Fat Tire La Folie. A great way to start a Friday and goes well with cinnamon rolls.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
Nice Links! (Really)....However, I Just In My Crotchety Old Age (#16139)
by Traveller on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 5:28am

....have a flavor for trying, if imperfectly, to tell the truth.

Carter is not the best thing since sliced bread, but his position on Israel has some Merit.

Instead of calling him "X," and "Y," it would be better to address his point...Isreal has probably never offered the Paleo's a full state solution...and we should stop lying about it.

If you want to argue that the Palestinians have instuted a culture of Death in Gaza and the West Bank, that they do not deserve to have a fully functioning state, that is one thing that would have the virtues of being true.

If you want to say that their school books are rot and teach hate...that also would be true.

If you want to say that the election of Hamas proves that the Palestinians do not deserve a functioning democracy that is dedicated to the destruction of another State...then say it.

I haven't read Carter's book and I presume that no one here will read it either....at one level it's kind of odd us debating it with such fury...but, his premise, that Israel has attempted to Bantuisize both Gaza and the West Bank much as South Africa attempted to do...as a varient of 'Apartheid' is just true...and it will fail for this reason.

We are doing Israel no favor in going along with this Israeli fiction.

Much better to simply tell the Palestinians that they will never get a State as long as the behave as the do. They muct reform their entire Govenment, Media and School structures and then, maybe then, the Two State Solution will really be on the table.

Best Wishes,

Traveller

( | parent )
Jimmy Carter, Unafraid to Tell The Truth....(The Maps Again) (#16114)
by Traveller on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 2:47am

...I can't believe that I've been looking for these on and off for the past five hours, (as I did other things).

No one is more pro-Israel than myself...(well, there may be some fanatical Zionist more Pro than I)...but, by in large, my attitude is that because I've been listenting to the BS my ENTIRE life, though repeated wars and peace conferences and bombings without end...Just kill all the Palestinians, start with all 2 million in Gaza or force Egypt to take them as a condition of our continuing aide.

I'm sick of it.

However, the wall and the final Israeli negotiating position at Taba in 2001...well, did leave something to be desired even by me that hates the Palestinians.

Here are the maps as best as can be reconstructed...even the Clinton map which may have worked was rejected by Israel...you can't but look at these maps and not understand President Carter's point about 'Apartheid' on the west bank, though Bantuization viz South Africa may be a more correct phrase.

I'm not here to argue this, though I may post this under the Carter Thread also...but look at the maps, study them and understand why Arafat, (spit be upon his name), could never accept them...nor could I.

http://www.mideastweb.org/lastmaps.htm

http://www.mideastweb.org/mredeploy1.htm

Now Then, study the April 2006 map of the proposed & constructed wall and tell me why the Palestinians don't have a legitimate bitch?

http://www.mideastweb.org/thefence.htm

Here is a simplier, colored version.

http://gush-shalom.org/thewall/

Now I don't care a wit if you kill 'em all...Really.

But first understand what's on the table and being fed to them.

(If anyone has better maps of the path of the wall or the settlement proposals, I'll study them fairly...if you've got them).

Best Wishes,

Traveller

( )
Funny...noticed on C-SPAN that (#16058)
by pumpkin ash on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 11:19pm

Tom Lantos (D-Israel/Transylvania) and another Democrat Rep were taking turns lambasting Carter over his new book today while speechifying on the floor of the [US] House with almost precisely the same vitriol as you are displaying in this diary title.

I found that to be pretty remarkable.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( )
I hate it when the Dems steal my lines (#16076)
by tomsyl on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 11:50pm

and I know he'd die before giving me credit. Once you realize that my roots are with Tony Coelho on K-Street, you'll understand why Lantos is indebted to me.

Anyway, I'm glad that at least you have noticed the subtle expansion of my influence into the New Government. Next: Pelosi asks my views on the Iraq Study Group Report before debating same in the House.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
Absolutely. Astounding. (#16070)
by vinteuil on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 11:41pm

You call Rep. Lantos: "D-Israel/Transylvania" - i.e.: vampire-jew.

I suppose you thought you were being subtle.

Think again.

--

God help the while, a bad world I say.

( | parent )
Think again...and chill (#16075)
by pumpkin ash on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 11:49pm

Lantos is from one of those Balkan [Hungary/Romania?] countries, and his accent sounds exactly like Bela Lugosi's.

And he is an ultraZionist advocate in US House of Representaves. No secret there.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
I am, indeed chilled... (#16091)
by vinteuil on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:46am

...by your blatant and casual exploitation of one of the oldest and most repulsive of all anti-Semitic tropes: the jew as blood-sucker.

As it happens, Rep. Lantos is a holocaust survivor of Hungarian descent.

Transylvania is wholly contained within Romania.

I do hope that, in the future, you will try to do a better job of keeping your slip from showing - assuming that you want to be taken seriously as a thoughtful opponent of Israeli policy, and not just another jew-hater.

--

God help the while, a bad world I say.

( | parent )
And Lantos has a "history", although you might have a hard time (#16155)
by pumpkin ash on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 10:23am

finding it in the MSM:

Profile In Arrogance: Congressman Tom Lantos hit and run
Injured 13-Year Old Boy

WHY JIM McDERMOTT IS A HERO – and Tom Lantos is a scheming hypocrite

The Lies of Tom Lantos The Bela Lugosi of the House

So, just who is Tom Lantos?

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
If your only support is from fringe moonbat publications, (#16354)
by tomsyl on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 11:29pm

you're admitting a lot about the weakness of your arguments. Citing "Counterpunch" as a credible source?? GMAFB. And one of your sources was from India, of all places. So they don't like Lantos - he probably doesn't like the food in Bombay. Who cares?

I'm no fan of Lantos (tho I like him more now that I know he's on Joe Conason's sh-t list), but if you're going to shoot him down you need more than spitballs.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
Wow. (#16290)
by vinteuil on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 6:00pm

You swing wild, punkin'.

--

God help the while, a bad world I say.

( | parent )
OK. Now 'wow' this: (#16298)
by pumpkin ash on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 7:13pm

Tom Lantos scored a "-9" rating (the worst of all 535 members in both houses of Congress[!])

Based on a Project Vote-Smart voting record analysis of foreign policy issues defined by Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel:

"Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel (JPPI) is a group of American Jews who believe that a just, comprehensive, and lasting peace in Palestine and Israel is attainable through negotiations based on international law and the implementation of relevant United Nations (UN) resolutions. We believe that as Jews outside of Israel, we have both a right and obligation to speak out in favor of an Israel that pursues peaceful, ethical, just, and democratic policies. "

The following ratings are based on point system designed by the organization. Points were assigned for actions either in support of or in opposition to the organization's position.

By these parameters Lantos (-9) is a worse Middle East warmonger/pro-Likudnik rubber stamp than even Mike Pense (-8), Tom DeLay (-7) or Tom Tancredo (-6) are. So please don't accuse me of being a dirty Antisemite for drawing attention to this person's behavior.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
Oh, P.A. (#16303)
by vinteuil on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 7:26pm

"...please don't accuse me of being a dirty Antisemite for drawing attention to this person's behavior."

(1) "dirty Antisemite" is your phrase, not mine.

(2) "drawing attention to this person's behavior" is not exactly the first characterization of what you wrote that would spring to my mind.

--

God help the while, a bad world I say.

( | parent )
What you said: (#16304)
by pumpkin ash on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 7:29pm

Link to #16091.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
Uh, well, yes? (#16305)
by vinteuil on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 7:34pm

Is there some confusion here about the proper use of quotation marks?

--

God help the while, a bad world I say.

( | parent )
eh Bill when you have the opportunity (#16349)
by Timmy on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 10:58pm

a diary on the Fall of Atlanta would be nice. :)

--

““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!””
–H

( | parent )
Ridiculous (#16149)
by pumpkin ash on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 9:30am

Read my comments again.

But If you are looking hard enough for a way to play the "dirty antisemite" card, I guess you can find it.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
Not ridiculous at all (#16165)
by Kierkegaard on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 11:06am

You've been outed.

( | parent )
Well I guess if even President Carter can be smeared with the (#16168)
by pumpkin ash on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 11:28am

"Dirty Antisemite" card these days, anyone is fair game.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
Balkan [Hungary/Romania?] countries (#16079)
by Timmy on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:01am

Of note, Lantos is a Hungarian and Hungary is not a Balkan country.

--

““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!””
–H

( | parent )
Don't give me any crap, Timmy, or I will Bite your neck (#16082)
by pumpkin ash on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:16am

Have you ever listened to Lantos talk? He sounds just like Bela Lugosi.

And look on a map. Hungary and Romania are right next door to each other. And Transylvania is situated between them.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
Mexico and the USA are right next door to each other (#16283)
by Timmy on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 5:30pm

you do the math.

--

““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!””
–H

( | parent )
Sigh, You Vampires are all alike; eat, eat, eat... (#16083)
by Ken White on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:23am

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Separated at birth? (#16086)
by HankP on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:34am

You decide.
LINK
LINK

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
Holy crap! (#16090)
by tomsyl on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:41am

That's uncanny. Talk about a new paradigm - I'll never look at the guy the same way again.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
Count Floyd sez: (#16089)
by pumpkin ash on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:40am

Ooh! The resemblence is Scaary!

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
Now you know the basics don't matter in ideological spin... (#16080)
by Ken White on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:09am

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Were there specifics or (#16062)
by Bill White on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 11:21pm

was it all based on unspecified generalities?

--

The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.

( | parent )
They were just going back and forth in one of those (#16067)
by pumpkin ash on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 11:35pm

semi-scripted dialogs as congressmen often do in those speeches recorded when no-one else is present in the chamber, about how libelous and scurrilous Carter was for spreading such lies in his book.

It was on C-Span sometime around noon ET, today.

--

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”--William Tecumseh Sherman

( | parent )
just one point (#15980)
by heet on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 7:11pm

People love to knock Carter for the Iran hostage crisis but forget how Reagan handled the two Beirut embassy bombings and Marine barracks bombing. He didn't do much. How'd that affect our international standing and self confidence?

Point is, I wouldn't brag too much about Reagan in the same post slamming ole Jimbo.

--

Over here on E Street, we're proud to support Obama for President. - Bruce Springsteen

( )
Who's braggin' on Reagan? Just raggin' on Jimmuh. (#16015)
by tomsyl on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 8:29pm

Reagan's campaign humoroid was short, clever and funny - that's all. And the election numbers are, well, numbers.

Reagan did plenty wrong for sure. You put your finger on two of the most shameful, indefensible chapters of his presidency (the worst, IMO), but that's sorta OT in the context of Carter and the Jews.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
See Kierkegaard below and you may recall I not only (#15994)
by Ken White on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 7:32pm

also knock Reagan for the Beirut bombings -- and the kidnappings as well -- but also lambaste Bush 41 for not going to Baghdad when it would've been far easier and when we had 500,000 troops in the area.

Oh, and Bill -- for sluffing on the WTC Bombing, Khobar Towers, the African Embassies and the USS Cole.

All four of them helped put us where we are.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Not to mention Somalia (#16003)
by Kierkegaard on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 8:04pm

OOps.

( | parent )
Sure... (#16001)
by M Aurelius on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 8:01pm

...you do.

But most of your fellow travelers do not.

So the point stands.

--

My country, right or wrong is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying... It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.' -Chesterton

( | parent )
Sweet! (#16154)
by Sulla on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 9:51am

it is my solemn pledge to make comment #16001 infamous here at the forvm.org. I can not wait to whip it out the next time Luis or Liva take mealy mouthed progressives to task on finding common cause with the ANSWER crowd.

--

"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta

( | parent )
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. (#16192)
by Kimmitt on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 1:05pm

The funny part was watching them try to recruit at the rallies. Pretty much everyone looked at them like they'd grown new heads, then started to edge away as though the Commie-ness was somehow communicable.

--

"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes

( | parent )
But most of your fellow travelers do not (#16068)
by Timmy on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 11:35pm

I always thought that sending Marines on patrol with unloaded rifles was a pretty stupid exercise. I still do.

--

““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!””
–H

( | parent )
Hey, Travlin Buddy, Whaazzzupp. :) (#16081)
by Ken White on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:13am

Every Marine I ever knew would agree with you...

I agree with you. Does this mean we're fellow travellers and I have -- inadvertantly, of course -- fibbed to M.A.?

Worse yet, does this make all those Marines also too fellow travellers...

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Not true. I don't have any fellow travellers 'cause I don't (#16031)
by Ken White on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 9:25pm

have a party membership -- an independent by definition is independent... :)

Regardless of that, the point doesn't stand.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Unless you're seriously claiming Reagan was worse (#16017)
by tomsyl on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 8:35pm

than Carter, your point is beside the point. There's not a president in the last century that hasn't ----ed up something important during his term(s) in office. But Carter is unique not just for his admissions of defeat while still in office, but for his extraordinary efforts to undercut the current holder of that office ever since he was ignominiously shown the door.

Anyway, Carter's an easy target as a person. What do you think of his "Apartheid" comparison?

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
extraordinary efforts to undercut the current holder... (#16069)
by Timmy on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 11:37pm

and that list includes Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton and Bush 43

--

““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!””
–H

( | parent )
Carter's an equal-opportunity irritant - (#16078)
by tomsyl on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:00am

he'll attempt to undercut whoever holds office. If he can hurt this country's foreign policy in the process while being photographed exchanging sloppy kisses with a mass murderer, torturer or genocidal maniac, he considers his day complete.

When I first saw that YouTube video I thought they had slipped in the Madame Tussaud wax dummy of Carter when the C-Span moderator wasn't looking - he showed all of the animation of a lawn jockey.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
Worse still, (#15987)
by Kierkegaard on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 7:23pm

He hedged his bets by striking a secret deal with Iran before the election to bring the hostages back. Moreover, he ardently continued Carter's proxy war on the Afghan border, with the consequences that we all now know so well.

The difference is that Reagan was a political genius where domestic policy was concerned and bluffed the USSR into docility. Carter was a cold, aloof, preening narcissist, whose judgement on even the most trivial matters was dreadful. I met the man once at a campaign rally, and thought him bug-eyed and physically repellent (I voted for him anyway, instead of the amiable and in hindsight far wiser Gerald Ford); however, I knew several people who worked for him and they either a. found him baffling and impossible to please or b. hated his guts.

Few people who knew him have much negative to say about Reagan, even those he used and treated shabbily.

( | parent )
"bug-eyed and physically repellent " - a keeper (#16087)
by tomsyl on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:38am

I'm constantly expanding my vocabulary here.

Many children today don't believe that a man named "Jimmy Carter" was ever actually president of the United States. They believe he is a bogeyman, made up by their parents to scare them into behaving. I wish they were right.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
Here's another word for you: Hyperbole (#16104)
by HankP on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 1:50am

You know, when they call Jimmy Carter "History's greatest monster" it's a joke, right?

Was he incompetant? Yes, I even thought so at the time. Was he orders of magnitude worse than Reagan? Not a chance.

--

I blame it all on the Internet

( | parent )
Two right, one wrong :) You're batting .750 !! Chester A. (#16181)
by Ken White on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:40pm

Arthur was orders of magnitude better than Carter. Reagan was a couple better than Carter; only Johnosn and Nixon in the last 100 years have been worse.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
"History's greatest monster"? (#16177)
by tomsyl on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:32pm

No more hyperbole than "Bush is the greatest threat to world peace/world's biggest terrorist/Hitler/torturer/criminal/party pooper/etc." Get used to it.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
Secret deals? (#15995)
by Bill White on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 7:36pm

al-Hakim, head of SCIRI may prove a useful conduit for this Administrationto negotiate with Iran while smugly telling FOX News the US will never negotiate with Iran.

Betcha James Baker knows all the right hotels in Paris to arrange clandestine meetings at.

--

The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.

( | parent )
Finally , an explanation for Carter? (#15947)
by tomsyl on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 4:55pm

Buried in this article is a reference to Carter spending time in - you guessed it - Roswell. Alien possession never occurred to me, but it makes sense at a certain David Lynch-type level.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( )
the people of Roswell, Ga? (#15955)
by callmeishmael on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 5:29pm

nice try tho

( | parent )
Having lived near Roswell GA for about 12 years, that's not (#15971)
by Ken White on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 6:27pm

totally out to lunch... :)

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
then you must know the old joke... (#16040)
by callmeishmael on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 9:49pm

why do the people of Alpharretta smile so much?
--cuz they're so close to ....

( | parent )
Cumming... GA. Pop. 5,200, County seat of Forsyth county :) (#16049)
by Ken White on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 10:18pm

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
damn you're good! (#16059)
by callmeishmael on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 11:11pm

You never cease to amaze...

( | parent )
Old age and treachery usually beat youth and skill... (#16084)
by Ken White on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:29am

Benefit of a very checkered and highly mobile past.

I even know how to properly curl and dish a white hat, all reg like and can bend a double carrick, big line or smallstuff. I used to be able to box a compass and take a star shot but given the age and lack of practice dunno if I still could or not... :)

I can still send about 20 words a minute, though.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Ever read Peter DeVries (#16046)
by Bill White on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 10:08pm

The Vale of Laughter?

Opening line: "Call me, Ishmael. Call me any time of the day or night." Or some such.

Reminds me of that horrid song from some horrid movie I cannot recall except that the song reverberates in my head: "Call me!" -- something about Richard Gere being a gigolo.

--

The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.

( | parent )
No, and I thank you.. (#16061)
by callmeishmael on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 11:17pm

wasn't aware that this was the source of ""Well, a man's got to believe something, and I believe I'll have another drink."

I shall have to pick that up book up.

( | parent )
Then there is this quote (#16064)
by Bill White on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 11:25pm

The difficulty with marriage is that we fall in love with a personality and must live with a character.

De Vries quotes

or this:

I love being a writer. What I can't stand is the paperwork.

--

The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.

( | parent )
Ever met the writer (#15972)
by Kierkegaard on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 6:31pm

Jack McDevitt? He lives there. Big Baptist town, isn't it?

( | parent )
No and Yes. As my old History 321 Prof [Harley, pay (#15977)
by Ken White on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 6:59pm

attention :) ], Tom Clark said, "Most everybody in the South is a Baptist -- until they get a little money, then they become Methodists -- if they get a lot of money, they become Episcopalians..."

Not totally true, as he knew, and Roswell proves it, wealthy, mildly eccentric Baptists in large quantities. :)

Not as wealthy as Dunwoody but more conservative and also more so than nearby and equally wealthy Alpharetta.

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Highly amusing (#15982)
by Kierkegaard on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 7:15pm

However, you're forgetting the Presbyterians, who are just above the Methodists and just below the Episcopalians. And of course where I grew up, the Catholics, who had a sort of parallel heirarchy of their own, though it was heavily weighted down toward the Baptist end.

( | parent )
Oh no, I'd never forget either of them. My parents were one of (#15998)
by Ken White on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 7:45pm

each and the Grandparents and a slew of relatives can get right dicey about both Religions. The Catholics in the South were few in number (until air conditioning encouraged northerners to move south, they're pretty thick now) and tended to be small pockets of Catholic Highlanders (rare) or Bavarians here and there and then, after 1840, a few Irish.

Unless you meant the Orthodox Catholics -- the Greek Restaurant in every small southern town (now replaced by Mexican and Chines restaurants) -- they came in after 1900...

The Presbyterians were at one time more numerous than the Baptists and tended to look down their long Scots noses at the heretics who switched to being Baptists in one of the evangelical revivals in this country which occur at about 30 year intervals and have for over 200 years. As befits a bunch of Scotch Irish, those Presbyterians were clannish and tended to be really as or more wealthy that the others -- they just eschewed ostentation.

And there were Jews, mostly owning dry goods and small departement stores, did well financially and who were rarely hassled but usually had to drive miles for Bar and Bat Mitzvahs and a Synagogue.

Plus the Pentecostals, fewer in number years ago than today.

Yeah, think Old Tom had his tongue in his cheek when he told us that...

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
I want to believe. (#15965)
by tomsyl on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 6:04pm

-o-0-o-

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
Get back to us when this happens (#15916)
by Bill White on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 2:40pm

Stein offered no specifics in his e-mail to back up the charges, writing only that "in due course, I shall detail these points and reflect on their origins."

Then we can talk specifics, in due course.

Until then this diary will merely generate wads of generalities spouted by both sides in support of prior held prejudices. In short, sound and fury to signify nothing.

K's criticism of the ISG report, on the other hand, actually has current relevance.

--

The proper balance between defense and welfare are the tectonic plates that lie beneath our political discourse.

( )
Evidence is beginning to mount (#15943)
by Kierkegaard on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 4:30pm

in support: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2006/12/a_note_on_the_j.html

( | parent )
What? (#15946)
by Wagster on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 4:54pm

No new info there, Kierk.

( | parent )
Read the email instead of the WaPo summary (#15933)
by tomsyl on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 3:43pm

It's not that long, and then you can interpret it yourself instead of just swallowing what Karen DeYoung thinks.

Here's how the line you quote (or to be precise, the line quoted in the article you quote) appears in context in Dr. Stein's email:

The history and interpretation of the Arab-Israeli conflict is already drowning in half-truths, suppositions, and self-serving myths; more are not necessary. In due course, I shall detail these points and reflect on their origins.

That's certainly open to an interpretation quite different from that of the Wapo. And you can't ignore the fact that Stein, who apparently is a noted scholar in the area and lengthy and apparently well-received book about Carter and the Camp David Accords, resigned over this and said Carter had fabricated material in the book. I think that's newsworthy even to people who think Carter's the greatest thing since dry-roasted peanuts.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
That's the problem (#15948)
by Wagster on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 4:55pm

The email lists no particulars to support the liar, plagiarist and anti-semite charges, and neither do you.

( | parent )
I thought he was a dry roasted peanut... :) (#15940)
by Ken White on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 4:18pm

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Moreover and equally to the point (#15939)
by Kierkegaard on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 4:17pm

'Apartheid' and geographical separation are not the same thing.

Formal apartheid was put into place after independence by the white South African government. Its primary apostle, astoundingly enough, was SA's greatest statesman, a 'liberal' Boer War hero, the inventor of 'holistic' medicine, and one of the founders of the League of Nations and modern UN! I kid you not. On paper, it was similar to the Jim Crow laws of the American South promising 'separate but equal' treatment to black people on their 'homelands'. In fact, of course, it was a recipe for repression, neglect, and economic exploitation, though in fairness, many South African black people actually received better educations in that period than did their counterparts in the US.

In Israel and the West Bank --Gaza cannot count, since the Israelis have withdrawn and have nothing to do with it aside from repelling attacks from inside it--the two parties are being physically separated by a wall. Increasingly they have less and less to do with each other; few Palestinians now work inside Israel--no civilian Israelis set foot in Arab areas as they once routinely did. The West Bank has its own government, civil service, police, and educational system. If the Israelis abandon their settlements there and pull back inside their 1967 borders, the simile will be utterly meaningless, as indeed, it mostly is now--except as a political slur on both parties. For one thing, the Palestinians are now in a position to shape their own destinies as never before, free from any contact with the hated Israelis, and in no way resemble the tribal Zulus and other African groups subjugated by the Afrikaaners. For another, black South Africans are far less bigoted and violent.

( | parent )
Just false... (#16008)
by M Aurelius on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 8:14pm

free from any contact with the hated Israelis

This is simply false. The West Bank is divided into countless areas by roads, settlements, and other obstacles which Israel controls. This means that Palestinians who move around the West Bank pass routinely through Israeli checkpoints. Not to mention if they try to reach Gaza.

Further, no Palestinian can enter or exit the country without going through Israeli border controls. The West Bank is not isolated, it is enclosed, partitioned, and partly occupied. The occupied areas are of course the most desirable, and Israel also controls water management, a non-trivial issue in a such a dry region. Nor can money enter or exit without going through Israel, and Israel is retaining Palestinian funds.

The Palestinians live in dry patches of land isolated from each other, with little money, little water, high population density, and no freedom of movement or trade. This you call a "position to shape their own destinies as never before".

Right.

--

My country, right or wrong is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying... It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.' -Chesterton

( | parent )
I meant to speak only of Gaza (#16167)
by Kierkegaard on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 11:19am

Which is free from all the conditions you describe, other than checkpoints. You are right to correct my sloppy writing. With all the money pumped into it by the Saudis and the EU, Gaza could be well on the way to becoming a second Singapore or Hong Kong by now. Which also have checkpoints.

However, my larger point still stands. The West Bank you describe as 'dry patches of land isolated from each other' is in fact filled with history's oldest cities, many of which, before Arafat, were charming and modernized tourist attractions. Moreover, it has for some time had its own airport, as Gaza once did as well. West Bank residents come and go to Jordan constantly--and must endure checkpoints on the Jordanian side as rigorous as the Israeli.

Even you will be hard-pressed to explain why constant terrorist warfare, much of it civil, as well as persecution of the fleeing Christian minority, has benefitted the Palestinian Territories. If peace agreements had been observed since the '40s there would be no issue to debate on this topic. Certainly not 'apartheid', which literally refers to racial discrimination. Not religious.

( | parent )
"position to shape their own destinies as never before" (#16071)
by Timmy on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 11:43pm

Well yes the Palestinians have had the ability to negotiate a resolution for almost a decade. Their failure to do so, reflects their current situation.

--

““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!””
–H

( | parent )
Not exactly (#15950)
by Wagster on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 5:01pm

In Israel and the West Bank --Gaza cannot count, since the Israelis have withdrawn and have nothing to do with it aside from repelling attacks from inside it--the two parties are being physically separated by a wall.

Since the wall is going not over the historical Israeli border but through palestine lands, the wall is not just separating Israelis from palestines, but also palestines from palestines. Indeed, in spots it even transverses farms, separating farmers from their livelihood.

( | parent )
Excellent points - too bad Carter didn't think of them (#15944)
by tomsyl on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 4:41pm

Well, maybe he did - like I said, I ain't buying the book. But you've directly undercut his thesis that the Israelis are responsible for all that's bad in the world, including the shortage of Playstation 3s.

To the extent that the Palestinians remain controlled by Hamas, they will never be able to satisfy their own destiny until Israel ceases to exist. From the Hamas Charter:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up.

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs [who knew?], and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions.

There's more, much more. I'll post this to your diary, too.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
The good thing about Hamas (#16052)
by Micky Love on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 10:40pm

One point in Hamas' favour is their advocacy of the "One State Solution" - an idea that is gaining ground among Arabs and Jews in the region. Of course this does not extend to the Likudniks and Fatah, or their backers in the US, but they are weakened and continue to weaken. I hope to see something positive arise out of the failure of the "Two State Solution".

A Link for you.

I don't think it's accurate to depict the Palestinians as "being controlled" by Hamas any more than you can say that "Americans are controlled by Republicans." Hamas was elected because it more clearly represented the views of the voting public. Mostly because of Fatah corruption and the very issue of the rejection of the "Two State Solution" which was integral to the Fatah position. I agree that Hamas and the Palestinians will likely remain unsatisfied until Israel ceases to exist. The last 50 years of history should be ample evidence of this. If the spirit of peace prevails, Jews may continue to live in the region as equals, even though the Jewish State is extinguished.

Don't put too much stock in these Charters. They can always change. I don't think they amount to much more than preaching to the choir.

On an unrelated note, when did Apartheid become such a dirty word? I recall a number of well regarded US politicians - Reagan, Cheney etc making a career out of defending the White Supremists in Africa. Seems that the situation today with Israel is even worse. Is there any politician in the US today who condemns bigoted Israeli policies?

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

( | parent )
Briefly (#16072)
by tomsyl on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 11:44pm

The link told me a little more than I already knew, but not much. I'm far from well-read in this area, but I haven't seen much about many Jews being in favor of a "one-state solution." As I understand it, given the disparity in population and the implacable hatred the Palestinians (like many, if not most Arabs) have towards the Jews, that is the equivalent of the destruction of Israel, and I didn't know many Jews were for that.

Hamas is currently the elected representative of the Palestinians, which obviously signals the importance to them of the destruction of the Jewish state. It's not as if there is a strong, vocal minority there fighting against this trend.

I don't think the "spirit of peace = extinguishing the Jewish state" paradigm will be ushered in anytime soon. I can't think of any sane Israeli putting his/her fate in the hands of Arabs in the region without military and territorial buffers.

AFAIK, the US boycotted South Africa beginning in the '80's over the apartheid issue.

I don't remotely agree with you that "the situation today with Israel is even worse", or is comparable. But that doesn't surprise me, given our perspectives.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
it's a small world (#16088)
by Micky Love on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:38am

and Israel is smaller still. If they can't live apart, and that's the lesson I gather from the failure of Olso, maybe they can live together. If they can't live apart or together, then they die. Ultimately, it's their choice.

I am uncertain about the soonness of the ushering in of the new paradigm. As US influence wanes in the the region, Israeli options will narrow. This much is clear. It may take years but don't assume that Arabs are not busy now as we write trying to take advantage of the new allignment of power. Wise Israelis might realize that today, Israel is in as powerful a bargaining position as it is ever likely to be, and act on this realization. (They have made concessions and offered a ceasefire to Hamas in the past few days, by the way.) But you are right. This conflict could yet drag on for years. I just hope you realize that options you still seem to cling to - Fatah's position - has been a thing of the past for years now.

I wouldn't necessarily equate the destruction of the "Jewish State" with the destruction of the "Jews". One is an absract, fictitious entity, the other is a group of people. If we had to destroy one to save the other, I think we'd have done the right thing. Most non-lunatics would agree. I don't dismiss those who would argue that the destruction of one leads to the destruction of the other. These are difficult problems that need patience, mutual respect and trust to be amicably ironed out.

Reagan's policy towards South Africa was one of "constructive engagement." It was not boycott. When I said that the situation today was even worse, I was referring to those days when people like Jessie Jackson were not afraid to take a stand against the racists of South Africa. I ask again, who today is taking such a strident stand against the outrages of Israeli bigotry?

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

( | parent )
I may have said boycott but I meant embargo (#16092)
by tomsyl on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 12:49am

I'll have to research it, but I thought the US embargoed SA goods sometime in the late 80's.

Your complaint that no one's taking a comparable stand today assumes agreement with your view on the "outrages of Israeli bigotry." I think you are part of a small minority who feel that way.

In a way, though, I suppose Jesse Jackson's "Hymie-Town" comment and his refusal to break with Louis Farrakhan can be seen as pro-Palestinian insofar as he demonstrates hatred of Jews.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
washed-up Jew Hating clergymen (#16098)
by Micky Love on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 1:20am

There was a US embargo against selling weaponry to South Africa. This was circumvented through the use of pariah states such as Taiwan, and, you guessed it, Israel.

This small minority you speak of exists in the US. Otherwise it is either not small or not a minority. I hold the views I hold, and I am not in the minority. Even among the Jews in Israel there exists a wider range of views on this subject than in the US. That you can only point out a couple of washed-up, Jew Hating clergymen who hold no political office as examples of those critical of Israel is pitiful in a country that would seek to influence the course of events in the region.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

( | parent )
I don't hold up Jackson and Farrakhan as anything (#16102)
by tomsyl on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 1:38am

other than buffoons, so don't jump to conclusions. (And I doubt Farrakhan even fits the definition of "clergyman" unless you can make up your own religion and they anoint yourself.)

There are loads of anti-Israeli sentiment in this country; I'm just not certain to what degree people are critical of the Israelis' treatment of Palestinians within Israel (as opposed to in the the OT, Lebanon etc. during the various intifadahs) but I will find out.

--

Barack Obama, elected during the banking mess, has filled his administration with Bear's and Lehman's conquerors, bestowing his papal blessing on a new era of robbery. Matt Taibi

( | parent )
quite a load (#16113)
by Micky Love on Fri, 12/08/2006 - 2:40am

I was interested in political office holders, especially national, who held views critical of Israel. You say they exist, so far you've yet to name one. Carter, Farrakhan and Jackson are all has-beens, and Jew Haters, to boot.

My contention, and I haven't bothered to check this, is that 20~30 years ago it would be much easier to find vocal opponents of South African apartheid in the elected national houses.

I don't really care about this except that I think this overwhelmingly one-sided cheerleading perverts the Israeli debate on the issue, and hampers progress on the "peace process".

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

( | parent )
But how much did the friends (#16452)
by MaxSchrek on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 10:52am

of south africa pump into election campaigns
in the USA in helping pro-SA candidates against
anti-SA ones ?.

--

Its just a model, you wouldn't want to bank on it.

( | parent )
who better to ask than Jack Abramoff (#16463)
by Micky Love on Sat, 12/09/2006 - 1:26pm

You could email him in prison if you wanted an authoritative answer. I remember reading on a Left blog that Abramoff acted as a producer on the 1989 movie Red Scorpion, made with South African funding apparantly. He must have been familiar with South African anti-communists with money to throw around in the US.

--

Nothing resembles virtue more than a great crime. Saint-Just

( | parent )
Gee (#15922)
by Wagster on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 3:03pm

I was just going to write the same thing.

( | parent )
Me too, Tomsyl's right - you got that remote? :) (#15932)
by Ken White on Thu, 12/07/2006 - 3:25pm

--

The K Codes explained HERE.

( | parent )
Support The Forvm

Powell's Books

Amazon.com

Help support the Forvm by buying items through our links. All proceeds go to defraying our hosting costs.

Links

Conservative
Liberal
Moderate/Mixed/Non-Partisan
Non-Political/Reference

Related Sites

Polisci Applied (Aaron)
Intrepid Liberal Journal (Intrepid Liberal)
Obsidian Wings (Bird Dog)
Open Hand/Open Eye (locutas)
Red State (Bird Dog)
Swords Crossed (brendanm98)
Wagster Speaks (Wagster)
WatchingAmerica (BlaiseP)
The Social Pathologist (TSP)

Foreign Affairs

Abu Aardvark
'Aqoul
American Footprints
Council on Foreign Relations
CSIS
Democracy Arsenal
Intel Dump
The Fourth Rail
War and Piece

Politics

Ace of Spades HQ
Andrew Sullivan
Balloon Juice
Belgravia Dispatch
Captain's Quarters
Crooked Timber
Curmudgeonly & Skeptical
Daily Kos
Democracy Arsenal
Eschaton
Firedoglake
Glenn Greenwald
Global Guerrillas
Hugh Hewitt
Instapundit
Jawa Report
Lawyers, Guns and Money
Liberals Against Terror
Matt Yglesias
Michael J. Totten
Michelle Malkin
Moon of Alabama
New America
OxBlog
Patterico
Political Animal
Political Wire
Publius Pundit
QandO
Reality Based Community
Talking Points Memo
The Agitator
The Belmont Club
The Corner
This Modern WorldTruman Project
Winds of Change.net

War

Counterterrorism Blog
Iraq the Model
Jihad Watch
Small Wars Journal Blog

Economics and Business

Angry Bear
Brad DeLong
Daniel Drezner
Mahalanobis
Marginal Revolution
Roubini Global Economics
The Big Picture

Science and Tech

Bad Astronomy
New Scientist
Real Climate
Science Blogs
Scientific American
The Panda's Thumb

Legal

Balkinization
Conglomerate
Ideoblog
Jurisdynamics
Law and Letters
Overlawyered
ProfessorBainbridge
ScotusBlog
Talk Left
The Becker-Posner Blog
Volokh Conspiracy

Sports

Baseball Crank
Baseball Musings
Baseball Reference.com
ESPN.com
NFL.com
Only Baseball Matters
The Sports Economist

Film and Music

They Shoot Pictures, Don't They?
Internet Movie Database
All Music Guide

News and Aggregators

Asia Times
Boingboing
CNN
Digg
English Russia
Fark
Memeorandum
MSNBC
Politico
Poynteronline
Slashdot

Dead Tree Media
The New York Times
The Washington Post
Los Angeles Times

References

Wikipedia
Your Dictionary