The Voyeur....(and the very Extensive History of Eroticism) Open Thread

 

...at  the Getty:

 

http://www.pbase.com/cichallenge/image/144632097

 

(female btw...there are no gender endings for the term {added content rich info from Traveller, ancient Greek and Roman busts more often than not had inlaid eyes...and with marble, the find bodies and draperies of cloth were richly and brightly painted, and not the pristine white we associate with marble statuary as we thing they should be and were, but were not)

 

Let me take this a step further, saw the Aphrodite Exhibit that has as of Sunday moved on to another museum...but, interesting, to me, was the...beautifully executed in marble and in paintings, wall & vase, of sexual congress in a great variety of forms...a shocking interest in sex, I thought...women ravishing men, men and beasts, boys seducing men...in 3D base relief, incredible realistic Penis in Vaginas, ect and ect and on and on....Ahem.

 

All of it gave me pause...until one realizes that this was their porn...and people have been very interested in porn for a very, very long time.

 

This thought, and the forceful truth of this thought...has given me serious pause and serious thoughts to ponder on.

 

~~~

 

What is rattling your cage this fine Monday?

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

 

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Joe Paterno really was a scumbag

(#284043)
HankP's picture

Paterno got new contract during sex abuse probe

 

 

I blame it all on the Internet

Somebody has to look out for those scholarship athletes

(#284053)
brutusettu's picture

 

 

The guy threw dozens of pre-teen boys to a wolf all to graduate his football players protect his little legacy and keep his precious football program intact for as long as possible.

 

At least he never said:

 

"The thing about those kids is, , not only were they kids, they'd make terrible kickers, and if you're not good, the team won't respect you."

 

 

He didn't do that, instead JoePa praised Sandusky for turning down coaching jobs to hang out more with pre-teen boys from trouble homes.

 

 

"Jazz, the music of unemployment."

 

Frank Zappa

He also didn't say

(#284055)
HankP's picture

"Whatever the details of the investigation, this much is clear to me: If there is a villain in this tragedy, it lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno's response,"

 

There's something really sick in American sports and it's associated organizations - including sponsors.

I blame it all on the Internet

Taliban "pragmatists"

(#283966)
Bird Dog's picture

Of course, this is just one Talibaner and he can't be named because he would probably get beheaded. But it does offer a glimpse (link), particularly since it is evident that their front is not united.

 

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

green on blue

(#284046)

It's worth noting that after more than a decade of NATO involvement in Afghanistan, we are directed to an article about a fatal squabble over drug proceeds, as evidence for disunity among the Taleban. I see no hand of NATO here unless it was standing back and letting the opium trade to flourish.

There's an interesting interview (20 mins) with Bill Lind here:

http://scotthortonshow.com/2012/07/09/william-s-lind/

He tells us how effective the Taleban are, in their marriage of tactics and strategy, something absent in NATO since after the first 30 days of the conflict when Northern Alliance marched into Kabul after a brief NATO bombing campaign. After that NATO has been nation building, and Taleban tactics and strategy strike at that with 'green on blue' incidents. The NATO trainers live in compounds walled off from those in their charge. They find them ignorant, contemptible, dirty and dishonest. This was not the case when US worked with Pashtun tribesmen against the Northern Alliance.

Lind says the Taleban know what they want, know how to get it, and what's more enjoy it.

 

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it. - Ho Chi Minh

Not sure what the scare quotes are for

(#283971)
HankP's picture

he does indeed sound pragmatic.

I blame it all on the Internet

The pragmatic part is....

(#284038)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

Boo!

(#283977)
Bird Dog's picture

They're just quotes, used by Borger descriptively.

 

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

Borger didn't put pragmatist in quotes nt

(#283981)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

I quoted Borger

(#284121)
Bird Dog's picture

Not that hard.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

Yes, you "quoted" him nt

(#284127)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

"Him"?

(#284250)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Photobucket

A little unkind to the not unattractive Ms. Borger.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Julian Borger

(#284253)
HankP's picture

see the link, there's even a little picture of him.

I blame it all on the Internet

Sounds Like Fertile Ground For A Pyramid Scheme

(#283974)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Make a general announcment that any Taliban member who surrenders to authorities while in possession of the severed heads of three other Taliban of equal or greater rank* within the ranks of the Taliban will be treated well in custody and released after the civil war is over.

*--yes, this makes it harder for those at or near the top to get out alive. This is a feature, not a bug.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Predatory koans

(#283908)

Why isn't my government calling that number?

(#283909)

.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Penn State Is Tying Up All The Lines Right Now -nt-

(#283912)
M Scott Eiland's picture

.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

I just read the summary of the report

(#283922)
HankP's picture

they are horrible, horrible people.

I blame it all on the Internet

If This Report Had Been Available When The Scandal Broke. . .

(#283923)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .it certainly would have diminished whatever sympathy Paterno got.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Really, is anyone surprised by this?

(#283956)

Paterno's sole ​raison d'etre ​was to protect The Program. He would have fed his grandmother to alligators to protect The Program. He'd have given his daughter to the offensive line for the sake of The Program. A few defenseless little boys didn't even light up on his radar.

"I've been on food stamps and welfare.  Anybody help me out?  No!" Craig T. Nelson (6/2/2009)

I'm Glad They Took The Time To Lay It Out, Though

(#283958)
M Scott Eiland's picture

People become thoroughly irrational when issues of child molestation are involved--it's important to make sure that everyone who is getting destroyed by this deserves the destruction.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Can't argue with that, Scott.

(#283963)

<nt>

"I've been on food stamps and welfare.  Anybody help me out?  No!" Craig T. Nelson (6/2/2009)

FWIW, I do give Penn....

(#284039)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

....a bit of credit for picking somebody that was going to hammer the ^%$& out of them. 

With Miracle Spring Water, too!!! (Fraud ab initio) Bad Stuff...

(#283911)

...and the government should be on this like stink on s#%^*.

 

They would rather spend resources on closing MJ joints, (pun intended) than go after obvious religious fraudsters.

 

I am a bit ashamed of my Government for this cowardly, (obviously), failing.

 

Traveller

The Rolling Stones hit 50

(#283903)
HankP's picture

today marks the 50th anniversary of the first Rolling Stones performance at the Marquee Jazz Club in London. I don't need to post anything, youtube is overflowing with videos of their performances and if you're over the age of 10 you probably know most of their greatest hits by heart. They've demonstrated pretty clearly the power of blues based rock and roll and still kick ass into their 70s. I raise a glass tonight in their honor.

I blame it all on the Internet

Lot of Evil in this Country

(#283888)

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

No. . .Just No

(#283883)
M Scott Eiland's picture

In fact, I will go so far as to say "no Hucking way in Fell."

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

I Hope You're Right, Scott, Huckabee Scares Me....nt

(#284255)

Traveller

The COlumbus Dispatch Political Reporter

(#283887)

I know says "Romney can't possibly win w/out Ohio, it's his only road to the WH, so Portman will be the VP nominee"

Portman has been a senator for 2 years

(#284243)
stinerman's picture

Most people in Ohio have no clue who he is.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

Hot Grits

(#284294)

Oh. Wrong Portman.

Portman

(#284271)
brutusettu's picture

The guy that hates the deficit, thinks that the government doesn't create jobs, and endlessly informs everyone that he loves the alternative engine for the F-35 even though the Pentagon isn't very high on the project.  He loves the alternative engine program because he says it creates jobs.

"Jazz, the music of unemployment."

 

Frank Zappa

Good test of the media

(#283865)

Romney claims he left Bain in '99 prior to its major outsourcing activities, it may be a felonious claim, it's certainly a gigantic whopping lie. 

 

Does he get called on it?

Maybe the Obama campaign should get called on it for...

(#283929)
Bird Dog's picture

...making a frivolous and substantively false claim (link and link). This won't hunt. Time to move on to the next attack.

 

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

Dude...

(#283997)

Joe Scarborough and Michael Steele on Morning Joe this morning were talking about the information being "interesting", rather than trying to defend Romney. When your own troops are sticking their hands in their pockets, and when there's sworn and signed testimony that contradicts you, no amount of linking to your clown Kessler is going to get Romney out of it.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Speaking Of Clowns. . .

(#284000)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .if you're going to cite RINOs, why not go straight to Frum or Brooks and cut out the squishy middlemen?

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

The list of kool aid non-imbibers

(#284001)

Is growing steadily longer: Barbour, Sessions, Jones call for release of tax returns. Yikes! Mix in the tea party crazies, and it should be a fun convention for you guys.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

What is so bad in Mitts taxes?

(#284002)

One has to wonder considering how much of a beating he is taking for not releasing them. That he's really rich and pays a really low tax rate will surprise no one so I don't see why that would stop him. The Swiss bank account though makes me wonder if it's related to the tax evader amnesty program.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/16/business/amnesty-program-yields-millio...

 

 

I doubt it

(#284006)

No one anticipating a political career would risk something like that. I think it's likelier that there were years when he didn't pay taxes... I think that is a big enough cudgel that you would rather take the beating for not releasing.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Worth some enterprising journalist asking the question?

(#284003)

To see if Mitt will admit to having taken advantage of the IRS amnesty program to pay back unpaid taxes on foreign holdings in past or pending returns. Most likely he will deflect. But even with an outright denial, absent the returns, he's still stuck in "believe me not your lying eyes" territory.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

I'd find that more believable...

(#283943)

...if Mitt Romney were exhibiting the slightest bit of transparency with his finances. He is not. One assumes the people running the Romney campaign are not idiots, and that they know that had Romney released his tax records back in January, the American public would most likely have forgotten all about it. As it is, all this does is reinforce the notion that Romney's an out-of-touch blueblood.

"I've been on food stamps and welfare.  Anybody help me out?  No!" Craig T. Nelson (6/2/2009)

You're a bit behind the curve on this one BD

(#283931)

 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/12/mitt-romney-bain-departure_n_16...

 

So now we have SEC documents stating that Mitt was CEO and Chairman of Bain. And we also have sworn testimony from Mitt that he remained on the board of various Bain companies and attended board meetings for said companies. Nothing wrong with any of that in isolation. Unfortunately for him he also claimed in election documents and disclosure forms that the had no involvement with Bain. Both can't be true and legal documents and sworn testimony trump Mr. Kesslers opinion.

 

In fact it seems harder and harder to find any explanation that doesn't involve Mitt committing a felony. As others have said  I don't expect him to be prosecuted for it but the mental contortions of his supporters trying to dismiss it should be quite entertaining.

Nope. It's a big double patty of nothingburger

(#283937)
Bird Dog's picture

Nothing more than warmed-over McCain oppo research going back to 2002. But by all means, embarrass yourselves.

 

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

I'd Be More OK With That. . .

(#283957)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .if I didn't suspect that this one would be going onto the Litany of Eternal Moonbat Grievances next to the Brooks Brothers Riot Myth and the Swift Boat Whine should Romney win.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Brooks Brothers Riot Myth

(#283961)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot

 

 

 

 

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Dude's in Brooks Brothers suits

(#283959)
brutusettu's picture

never tried to shut down a recount and assaulted some people?   Or is the use of the word "riot" is just too much when just assault is involved?

"Jazz, the music of unemployment."

 

Frank Zappa

Good point!

(#283941)

Where are the 23 years worth of tax returns Mittens gave to the McCain campaign?

 

How come the voting public doesn't get the same access?

 

 

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Someone else is embarrasing himself

(#283939)

 

And not for the first time as he fights to defend the Republican tribe!

 

Sully deconstructs Kessler nicely here.

 

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/07/the-bain-of-his-campaign...

 

We have identified at least six filings that Romney did sign during this period: a April 13,, 1999 13D filing by Pirod Holdings regarding an investment in Rohn Industries; a Jan. 3, 2000 13D filing by VMM Merger Corp. regarding an investment in VDI MultiMedia; a Feb. 14, 2000 13G filing by Bain Capital Fund IV regarding Wesley Jessen Visioncare; a Feb. 13, 2001 13G filing by Bain Capital Fund VI regarding Integrated Circuit Systems; a Feb. 14, 2001 13G filing by Bain Capital Fund VI regarding ChipPAC; and a November 12, 1999 13G filing (first reported by Mother Jones) by Bain Capital Fund VI regarding Stericycle.

 

 

Mitts financial disclosure form.

 

“Mr. Romney retired from Bain Capital on February 11, 1999 to head the Salt Lake Organizing Committee. Since February 11, 1999, Mr. Romney has not had any active role with any Bain Capital entity and has not been involved in the operations of any Bain Capital entity in any way.”

 

But hey what's a little lying amongst plutocrats. Perjury and felony charges are only for the little people.

Make that a triple nothingburger

(#283973)
Bird Dog's picture

This time from CNN, confirmed with four sources, two of whom are Democrats "active" in helping get Obama reelected. Fortune came up with a similar answer. Seriously, you lefties are just beclowning yourselves on this, and since I like to see liberals beclown themselves, go ahead and throw more gas on that fire. The cognitive dissonance is quite entertaining.

 

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

The fortune article is dated yesterday

(#283979)

And some new information has come out since then which is not mentioned by either cnn or fortune. To recap for you

 

We have SEC documents stating that Mitt was the CEO, chairman and president of Bain from 1999 until 2002 and received compensation for it. SEC docs are supposed to be accurate. This is really not subject to debate.

 

Sworn testimony from Mitt that he was a member of corporate boards of Bain managed companies from 199 until 2002. This was when he was trying to prove that he was eligible to run for political office in Mass. Like being a CEO being a board member carries certain responsibilities and you most certainly are responsible for the activities of the company.

 

FEC statements from Mitt claiming that he had no connection with Bain or Bain managed companies.

 

 

All of the above cannot be true. One of Sully's readers nails it.

 

What scares me is the realization that the Romney apologists are not simply being political here. They seem honestly perplexed that people are making a big deal over the fact that Romney said under oath that he was the CEO of a company for three years that he also said under oath he wasn't managing.  

Because, to them, it is not a big deal.  It's just how things work when you are dealing with a "complicated" business and annoying government regulations.  Those who work in (and report about) corporate finance have completely bought into the idea that what they do is way too important and complicated for the general public or a bunch of government regulators to understand.  So they play by their own rules - which are only tangentially related to the actual laws on the books meant to keep the system running and protect the public.  

And that's how you end up with the biggest financial crisis since the Great Depression.

 

Lying under oath only matters if it's about blowjobs nt

(#283982)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

Hey now

(#283996)
brutusettu's picture

jumping to the chase and asking about any possible consensual relations are very important to know if you're trying to find out if someone would sexually assault another woman that the defendant had just meet....like trying to find a hit and run driver by asking if they ever sped.

 

 

Romney didn't outsource a lot of the jobs you've heard about, he was just the President of Bain Investors VI and thus is the controlling person of Bain Investors VI and that out sources a lot of the jobs you've heard about, all the while making 6+ figures for apparently just signing his name on some SEC documents that said he ran the show over there.

"Jazz, the music of unemployment."

 

Frank Zappa

Funny How Democrats. . .

(#283998)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .didn't have any problem authorizing those questions for regular sexual harassment cases involving private individuals when lefty feminist voters needed to be pandered to, but when the Molester in Chief's conduct came into question enforcing those standards became unthinkable. "Hoist by their own petard" definitely comes to mind.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

You'll have to point me to the petard

(#284005)
brutusettu's picture

I'm unaware of that antique siege machine being used pre-Clinton because of lefty feminist voters.

 

 

"Jazz, the music of unemployment."

 

Frank Zappa

It doesn't change the fact

(#283976)
HankP's picture

that being legally liable for a corporation without having any control (or even knowledge) about its operations is a profoundly stupid thing to do. It goes directly to Romney's competence as a business manager, which was sadly lacking if you take him at his word.

I blame it all on the Internet

It Implies. . .

(#283978)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .that he has confidence in the people he delegates authority to. Assuming that the confidence was justified--which seems to be the case unless one is inclined to despise companies like Bain on principle, in which case Romney probably isn't getting those people's votes in any event--that's actually a rather positive indicator of Romney's potential as a President, given that ability to delegate authority to competent subordinates is pretty much required for the job.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Rather than all this hand waving

(#283983)

 

How about an actual SEC document?

 

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1054290/000092701601001009/000092...

 

Relevant passage here.

 

          Bain Capital Partners VI, L.P., a Delaware limited partnership ("Bain
                                                                           ----
Partners VI") is the sole general partner of Fund VI and Coinvestment Fund. Bain
-----------
Capital Investors VI, Inc., a Delaware corporation ("Bain Investors VI"), is the
                                                     -----------------
sole general partner of Bain Partners VI. Mr. W. Mitt Romney is the sole
shareholder, sole director, Chief Executive Officer and
<PAGE>

President of Bain Investors VI and thus is the controlling person of Bain
Investors VI.

 

Yummy

(#284120)
Bird Dog's picture

The nothingburger, that is. The SEC documents do not say that Romney ran Bain Capital after 1999, which is kind of the point. The NYT:

Indeed, no evidence has yet emerged that Mr. Romney exercised his powers at Bain after February 1999 or directed the funds’ investments after he left, although his campaign has declined to say if he attended any meetings or had any other contact with Bain during the period.

By all reasonable accounts, he stepped away to run the Olympics and he kept his option to return open.

 

 

 

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

By more reasonable accounts

(#284144)
brutusettu's picture

"he stepped away to run the Olympics and he kept his option to return open"

That reminds me of a police report where officers report they "guided the suspects head near some plaster" when the officers actually rammed a suspect's head through a wall.

 

 

 

I'd say that by most reasonable accounts:

"he still owned the company and was paid salary from the company, but delegated the operations of the company, such as axing of jobs, to his subordinates."

 

 

 

fwiw

I haven't see every ad on the matter, but the only Obama one I've seen says Romney owned companies cut jobs and outsourced the work oversees. 

"Jazz, the music of unemployment."

 

Frank Zappa

Mitt doesn't find it so tasty

(#284134)

Judging by his panic stricken interviews with all of the News media he seems to be choking on it in fact.

 

As for the NY Times why do I need that? I can look directly at the FEC and SEC documents and at Romneys SWORN STATEMENTS UNDER OATH when he was trying to prove that he was eligible to run for office in Massachusetts.

 

Now you know Bird Dog it may very well be that Mitt didn't do anything for Bain from 1999 until 2002. That just means that rather than committing perjury in one case he did it in the other case.

Oh, no, it's quite tasty

(#284140)
Bird Dog's picture

Although the red meat being fed to the Left is politically unsatisfying. Mitt is on solid ground when he says that the Obama campaign is "based on falsehood and dishonesty" when it come to his time at Bain.

The "sworn testimony" bit is flimsy ground. The bottom line is that he was legally connected to Bain after 1999 but not operationally. The documents do not dispute those contentions. More here. I dunno, when I hear lefties go on about SEC this and that...

...certain images come to mind.

 

 

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

Well Boo Hoo Hoo.

(#284146)

I seem to have forgotten the foursquare Stand On Principles that the GOP embodied when various bits of its bottom-feeding scum-coated base was swiftboating John Kerry and insisting that Barack Obama was a Secret Kenyan Muslim. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, Mittens and the rest of the Republican Party are whining like a bunch of spoiled children.

 

If Mitt is so distracted by this, the answer is simple: he just needs to release his income tax forms. His father did it, and so has every other candidate for the office of President of the United States. What makes Mitt think he's so special?

 

Or, more likely, what is he hiding?

"I've been on food stamps and welfare.  Anybody help me out?  No!" Craig T. Nelson (6/2/2009)

Separate issue

(#284196)
Bird Dog's picture

Romney's time at Bain is one issue, and his release of more tax returns another.

The Romney campaign is responding to the Obama's campaign's false charges just right. Any competent campaign needs a good rapid response team. Kerry didn't have a good one in 2004, and that was his problem.

Judging by your comment, I suppose your take is that two wrongs make a right. I'm not with you on that. Romney's half-truths and untruths will catch up to him, as will Obama's.

 

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

Bain is fair game:

(#284203)

Romney has based his entire campaign on his alleged business acumen. He can't whine now because people have examined his record and found it wanting. 

"I've been on food stamps and welfare.  Anybody help me out?  No!" Craig T. Nelson (6/2/2009)

Not saying it isn't

(#284281)
Bird Dog's picture

But Romney shouldn't get dinged for decisions Bain made after he left. Liberals are trying to say "ah ha!" with the SEC filings but there is no substance.

This whole controversy is just another one of those Bright Shiny Distractions that the Left likes to crow about. The bottom line is that Romney had a stunningly successful business career in the private sector and he ran a stunningly successful Winter Olympics. By contrast, Obama has exactly zero experience in the business world. All he has are the BSDs when it comes to commerce.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

The Bain stuff isn't illegal or anything

(#284319)
stinerman's picture

That's not the point.  The point is that Mitt Romney lives in a completely different multiverse than the rest of us.  He got paid a six-figure salary from 1999 to 2002 for, what he states, was essentially a no-show job.  I don't  get paid six figures, and I actually work for a living.

 

The guy has no clue what it's like to have to save money for something or forego purchasing something because he simply doesn't have the money.  No clue.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

Romney's stunningly successful Olympics

(#284285)

were paid for, in large part, by Uncle Sam.

In turning around the 2002 games, Romney got a big helping hand from U.S. taxpayers. The federal government poured $1.5 billion into the Salt Lake games – more than twice the amount spent on any previous U.S. Olympics.

If the federal government gave me $1.5 billion, I can guarantee you I'd be wildly successful, too.

"I've been on food stamps and welfare.  Anybody help me out?  No!" Craig T. Nelson (6/2/2009)

Essential reading

(#284288)

Charles Pierce: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/mitt-romney-crony-10723178

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Yep.

(#284297)

Is this a great country or what? A millionaire developer wants a road built, the federal government supplies the cash to construct it. A billionaire ski-resort owner covets a choice piece of public land. No problem. The federal government arranges for him to have it. Some millionaire businessmen stand to profit nicely if the local highway network is vastly improved. Of course. The federal government provides the money. How can you get yours, you ask? Easy. Just help your hometown land the Olympics. Then, when no one's looking, persuade the federal government to pay for a good chunk of the Games, including virtually any project to which the magic word Olympics can be attached. For the past few years, while attention was focused on the Great Olympic Bribery Scandal-in which Salt Lake City boosters dispensed as much as $7 million in gifts, travel, scholarships, medical care, jobs and other goodies to IOC members (and their relatives and companions) to ensure that Utah's capital city would be chosen to host the 2002 Winter Games-private and public interests have siphoned an estimated $1.5 billion out of the U.S. Treasury, all in the name of those same Olympics.

Not that he wasn't grateful.

This is not to say that the recipients are unappreciative. Mitt Romney, SLOC's president, has acknowledged the U.S. government's contribution by saying, "We couldn't have done it without them. These are America's Games."

Read more.

"I've been on food stamps and welfare.  Anybody help me out?  No!" Craig T. Nelson (6/2/2009)

Then logic says, Bain's Chairman, CEO & sole shareholder

(#284283)

..during the period, is also fair game.

What is so different about what Bain got up to after February of 1999, than what it did prior to then? And why did Romney lay this trap for himself by trying to disassociate himself from Bain post Feb 1999, when fending off attacks from the right during the primaries?

Must be something provably bad.

Maybe Mitt's tax returns could shed some light on that period?

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Uh, no

(#284349)
Bird Dog's picture

Yours is actually not logical. Romney didn't pull the trigger on KB. The people he appointed did. The Obama campaign is being untruthful re Romney's role in the KB decision.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

Complete nonsense

(#284356)

And pretty much indefensible in the context of a Presidential election. I'm sure the base will accept your reasoning, independents? not so much. My personal theory as to why Mitt came up with this novel corporate governance theory? He was afraid of the Stericycle problem, which his opponents in the primary could have used to great effect, but never did.

Do you have any evidence that Mitt appointed anyone to anything at Bain before he left to fleece the taxpayers by 'saving' the Olympics?

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

"Is" being untruthful?

(#284354)
brutusettu's picture

There isn't the ad that says a Romney owned company cut jobs in America to pay foreigners a lot less?

"Jazz, the music of unemployment."

 

Frank Zappa

Same behavior

(#284201)

Romney can't afford to risk his tax returns being out there, so as George Will says, he's done the cost benefit analysis and decided to front it out and take the hit. Must be some damaging information in there. Bain, same thing. Romney is going to stick to the story he came up with when attacked over the issue by his primary opponents regardless of what contemporaneous FEC/SEC documents, sworn testimony, interviews and press releases unearthed by his detractors might say.

He's going to front it out because in his mind he isn't like the rest of us, he's special and deserves to be treated differently. Can't get much more un-American than that.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Yes and Sarah Palin doesn't lie either

(#284142)

<nt>

Why is Romney so eager

(#284122)

..to disassociate himself with the nothingburger of Bain, post Feb of 1999?

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

You Mean The Document Filed. . .

(#283985)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .ten years ago, while Romney was publicly running the Salt Lake City Olympic Committee? Following the lead of Single Issue Andy on what to take seriously is not a recipe for a successful political enterprise, much less legal analysis.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Hmm, tough call

(#283999)

Should I believe Romney and his friends now, or contemporaneous sworn testimony?

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Silly post

(#283987)

The Olympics are irrelevant and the document didn't come from Andy. It came from Bain and Mitt Romney. And Mr. Romney also claimed in a separate FEC document that he had nothing to do with any Bain companies during this time frame. Both can't be true.

Silly Response

(#283988)
M Scott Eiland's picture

The Olympics were the reason he took the leave of absence, and explain how he could have been technically still connected with the companies in question without having the time to actually do anything for them. You've got nothing. Of course, that won't stop Debbie the D****it from trying to make something of it, and the usual suspects in the sinestrosphere from putting it on the List of Eternal Moonbat Grievances after November.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

You ever been on a corporate board MSE?

(#283991)

And I don't mean the kind where it's your Uncle Joe's print shop. You don't get to take a leave of absence. If you're a director you're legally responsible for what the company does. And that covers both acts of omission and commission. In fact most directors actually buy insurance (or the companies buy it for them) to shield their personal assets in case something gets screwed up.

 

But that's all irrelevant because of the following.

 

Mitt testified under oath that he attended board meetings during the period in question.

 

That is in addition to the SEC documents. It was when he was trying to prove that he was eligible to run for governor of Massachusetts and wanted to show that he was actually spending some time in the state.

Not "technically still connected"

(#283989)
HankP's picture

legally liable for their acts as a board member and CEO. That's a big difference.

 

I notice the pet names come out in full force when the argument is going badly.

I blame it all on the Internet

"The Buck Stops Here"

(#283990)
M Scott Eiland's picture

In other words, he had enough confidence in his subordinates to put his posterior at risk based on their performance. Kind of like a good President does and is rewarded for (and a President who chooses unwisely is burned for). Looks like Romney chose wisely, other than the flailing of liberals trying to make an issue of it a decade later.

The names come out when the argument is going well, too. Andrew Sullivan is a hysterical moron regardless of the issue involved.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

That's hilarious!

(#284035)

In other words, he had enough confidence in his subordinates to put his posterior at risk based on their performance.

Except, he doesn't have the guts to take responsibility (for what isn't really a big deal anyway, but he chooses to make it a big deal.) What he's saying is "The buck stops oveeeeeer... there by those people I delegated this to."

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

No, no, no

(#284007)
HankP's picture

If you're a director or officer you're a fiduciary and have duties that you can't assign to someone else. Among other things, you have to attest to the validity of financial statements and it requires due diligence in assessing that.

I blame it all on the Internet

Plenty Of People Seem To Disagree, Hank

(#284008)
M Scott Eiland's picture

People sign their tax forms after letting professionals look them over, too. Romney's a multi-millionaire and has access to expertise from others that neither of us will ever have. This is a silly argument, particularly when there is no claim that something happened that Romney could be called to account for other than having the temerity to run for President against the Chosen One.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Regarding this

(#284014)

there is no claim that something happened that Romney could be called to account

 

By running away from the outsourcing story and instead hiding behind "I wasn't there", Romney has already implicitly conceded that this was something to disown. That's the problem. He burnt the bridge to his retreat, painted himself in the corner. That's what makes this story so delightful.

 

Do you really think that you are going to take a pet project like the Olympics on and then completely disregard your life work and the better part of your wealth? Of course he took calls, advised his employees, maybe arbitrated some power fights... maybe attended Bain board meetings. And there is nothing wrong with that! But by acting like it is wrong, he makes it wrong. He manages to piss off his base and put independents ill at ease at his dishonesty, all with one swift move.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Or He Saw How Obama Handled The Birthers. . .

(#284017)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .and realized that he could make a substantial portion of his political enemies look like obsessive tools by not giving them something they wanted.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

In which case

(#284022)

You and every Gopper defending Mitt over the issue would taking a significant gamble that there's nothing unsavory in those tax returns or that Mitt can successfully hold off against all calls for him to do what every other recent candidate for the presidency has done, to include his own father. Sure you want to make that bet? not that you have much of a choice really.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

True

(#284029)
M Scott Eiland's picture

It's not like anyone is calling me for campaign advice. Romney will do what Romney will do.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Also, let's not forget

(#284057)

McCain did get to see those tax returns - and chose Palin!

 

Food for thought?

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Not Really

(#284059)
M Scott Eiland's picture

The base had even more concerns about McCain than they did about Romney, but ended up choosing him because of his other strengths. McCain had to choose a running mate that was going to be popular with the base, and that wasn't going to be Romney--Romney needed to make the sale on his own dime.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Really?

(#284061)

If that's true, then for the base... 

 

Partisan loyalty > True Conservatism

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

I defer to your superior knowledge

(#284060)

of your own lizards.

 

Also, given the minimal vetting of his eventual choice, there's every chance that no one in the vetting squad even looked at Mitt's returns.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

MSCOTT GIVES BAIN ATTACKS THE GO AHEAD

(#284030)

.

I think you are right

(#284013)

In the sense that there isn't anything really different about the way Bain operated after Romney's supposed retirement in 1999, to the way Bain operated prior to that time when he was admittedly at the helm. But Romney sure wants everyone to understand that he wasn't making the day to day decisions once he left for the games in Utah, just reaping the benefits. So what is it about Bain post 1999 that he's afraid to be associated with?

UPDATE: Stericyle?

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Like I said, it's poor business practice

(#284012)
HankP's picture

in a public company he'd be liable for shareholder suits. It means that Mr. Business Expert isn't so expert, and had poor management practices at a company where he was in charge. It goes straight to the heart of his claim of competency in business.

I blame it all on the Internet

There's a preparer's box thingy for tax returns, right?

(#284010)
brutusettu's picture

Is there an equivalent for the SEC filings?

Is that important or not?  Like say, the SEC doesn't have that box for a reason type thing?

Is it really not important because Mitt is running against T3h Oncer?

Or is it super really not important because Mitt is running against Teh Onc3?

"Jazz, the music of unemployment."

 

Frank Zappa

Confidence only goes so far

(#283980)
HankP's picture

he still retained full legal liability as sole shareholder, CEO, etc. The only times I've seen such abdication of management responsibility was in small family owned businesses - and only in a small minority of them.

 

No, this is certainly not business as usual. If you take Romney at his word it's at least reckless.

I blame it all on the Internet

Only If He Did A Bad Job In Choosing His Surrogates

(#283984)
M Scott Eiland's picture

You've got nothing--certainly not the criminal conduct the more breathless comments here and elsewhere have suggested. Of course, given that the most eagerly sought after analysis cited here seems to be coming from Single Issue Andy and the sycophants in his comments, clueless hysteria would seem to be par for the course.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

No

(#283986)
HankP's picture

surrogates only get you so far. Decoupling liability and responsibility is a bad business practice no matter how you try to explain it away.

 

Also, adjective overload and I don't see hysteria anywhere here.

 

I blame it all on the Internet

That didn't make much sense

(#283975)

We were legally required to keep ROmney's name on the documents for three years after he left?

 

Uh, why? 

 

It happened so suddenly, it took us over two years to do anything about his departure. Again, why? 3-6 months, maybe. Significantly more than two years? Nah.

 

So they're not telling the truth that Romney stayed on, officially at least, as CEO, president, chairman of the board and sole stockholder b/c he thought he might return after the Olympics.

 

And that just raises the question of what else is false coming out of these people.

 

Gotta love these CNN idiots. They said they were Democrats! That's as far as our tiny minds take things!

Posting Rules -nt-

(#283946)
M Scott Eiland's picture

.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Naw

(#283948)

When BD said this

 

But by all means, embarrass yourselves.

 

I didn't take it as an personal insult. Rather directed impersonally to anyone who dares raise the topic of Mitt's mendacity. Of course BD may have taken my response as such but since I didn't mention him specifically by name how could that be? I could very well have been talking about Kessler or one of the innumerable other conservatives defending Mitt.

Perhaps. . .

(#283955)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .but the second sentence with the tribal reference made fairly clear who was being referred to.

But not to worry--posting rules are for the little people, after all.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Hmm so you thought I was referencing you?

(#283962)

As I'm sure you know I've used the tribal reference during posts with several people on the forvm in the past. And for plenty of people outside of it. The reference was oblique enough that it could not be tied to any one particular person either here or elsewhere. Just like lots of your pleasant posts. Moonbat never refers to anyone here right? As for what your intent or mine might have been that's another issue entirely.

"Contortions"??

(#283932)
Jay C's picture

What contortions? Most of the official Romney campaign's dismissals of issues relating to Mitt's time at Bain Capital are near-Pavlovian: Feigned Insult, manifested as huffy whining about  Awful and Disgraceful Campaigning, and calling President Obama a "liar". Ignore Issue And Repeat ad infinitum.

 

And further down the food-chain, most Republican "supporters" seem to be motivated mainly by hatred of Barack Obama (if leavened by a generally unenthusiastic reaction to standard-bearer Willard), they're not going to care.

 

And out here on the Intertubes, it doesn't require much "contortion": because after all, Al Gore is fat, some poster on Daily Kos called Bush "Hitler" once, and Democrats suck, so there...

Kessler, no surprise

(#283930)

John Cole has my proxy:

 

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2012/07/12/what-we-are-up-against-with-our-failed-media-experiment/

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Why do you hate FactCheckers catchy? Why?

(#283884)
brutusettu's picture

No matter how you slice it he's a liar

(#283868)

Either the SEC docs where he is listed as CEO and chairman (and was paid for the positions) is a lie -- or the Massachusetts disclosure forms where he says he had no management role is a lie. I'm not sure if a lie either way would constitute a felony but he would certainly be open to civil actions and potential lawsuits from investors and shareholders for lying on SEC forms.

How Many Pinocchios is That?

(#283867)

Either he lied recently when he said he left Bain in 1999 or he lied to the SEC in 2000, 2001, 2002.

 

The former is just garden variety political tale-telling. The latter opens* Romney and Bain to SEC enforcement actions.

 

 

-----------------

*Or is there a statute of limitations thing on lying to the SEC? Darn. There is for penalties, but not for other actions "such as injunctions, disgorgement or officer bars..."

 

On the former, see the initial link at fdl

(#283872)

That might also be a felonious misrepresentation.

Normally I'm Pretty Good About Reading Links

(#283874)

but I can't usually bring myself to click fdl links.

 

Just this once, though, I will. For you.

David Dayen at fdl is a must-read

(#283875)

John Walker is also good. 

 

Dean Baker writes over there occasionally as well. 

 

The economics writing is very strong at fdl. I get as much good and unique info. from that site on housing, the financial sector, and healthcare as from any other source. 

 

Dayen is no expert on this particular issue, however. 

He got paid a 100k salary in 01 and 02

(#283871)

It's very possible that Romney did precisely nothing for the company as an executive and yet collected a larger salary than I'm likely to earn in my lifetime for it. 

 

Only 100k for an executive at a major US firm? That's like not drawing a salary at all. Unless you make 500k a year or more, you don't even work there. 

You don't expect to.....

(#283891)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

Not adjusted for inflation

(#283897)

unless I go into admin., which is unlikely.

Oh catchy

(#283898)
HankP's picture

you write some pop-phil book which will make you millions. At least, if you want to.

I blame it all on the Internet

I had a great idea for a book this week, but I've been scooped

(#283905)

You piqued my interest

(#283910)
HankP's picture

so I went to google and what is this I don't even

I blame it all on the Internet

Deferred compensation

(#283873)
HankP's picture

pretty common in employment contracts for top jobs. It allows you to get income spread out over time, usually so you don't trigger the highest tax rates. Especially at Bain, where most of the income is claimed as capital gains and therefore not subject to income taxes.

I blame it all on the Internet

SEC enforcement actions

(#283869)

against the GOP nominee in a Presidential election year? I want some of what you're smoking.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Doesn't have to be the SEC

(#283876)

If there are any private citizens who were shareholders in one of the companies that Bain managed they may have standing to bring suit against Bain and Romney for fraud.

Over a technicality?

(#283878)

"He was on the SEC filings because he was still technically the owner, but hadn't transferred ownership to other partners."  Romney adviser Matt McDonald

And just how is this individual going to prove material loss? Hell, chances are they got substantial returns.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

It's not a technicality

(#283881)

And McDonald's opinion is meaningless. Being the CEO and Chairman as stated in the SEC filings carries certain legal duties and responsibilities. In order to avoid the felony charge from his Massachusetts ethics form he has to say he was not actually discharging those duties.

 

As for material loss -- if Romney received compensation for those duties and did not actually perform them that compensation was obtained fraudulently. So he could be subject to a lawsuit on those grounds even if the securities did not actually lose money. I think Romney is most likely safe though since the investors were probably a fairly select group who stand more to benefit if Mitt is elected.

I'm sure Romney isn't going to lose any sleep

(#283882)

over fear of prosecution.

 

Obama & the Dems can & should hit Romney hard with it though.

 

The substance of Mcdonald's statement is worthless, but the fact they are on the defensive again over Bain is very valuable indeed.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

I'm sure Romney isn't going

(#283885)

I'm sure Romney isn't going to lose any sleep over fear of prosecution.

 

​Of course not. And nobody watching expects him to be prosecuted or sued for lying to the SEC and/or Massachusetts state elections authorities.

 

All of which -- all those expectations and understandings -- serve to highlight Romney as posterboy of the unaccountable elite who are gutting the nation and fouling its institutions.

 

Of course his 401k is worth $100M. And of course he still drew a paycheck from his firm, even though he had passed day-to-day operations to others (while telling the SEC otherwise). And of course Warren Buffet's secretary pays a higher tax rate than he does.

 

Nobs like Romney don't play by the same rules as the most of us.

 

It's a pretty good line of attack and it'll be a fun rest of the summer if the Obama campaign can follow it up with more of the same.

 

 

 

Yep

(#283880)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Fraud requires proof of damages, and "it would really be nifty for blowing up Romney's campaign" doesn't constitute damages. Still, this avenue looks more promising than Michael Tomasky and Laurence O'Donnell's deranged mutterings about how Romney saying "Obamacare" in front of the NAACP is some kind of racist dog whistle.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

MSCOTT GIVES BAIN ATTACKS THE GO AHEAD

(#283886)

You read it at theforvm first, people.

Why Would I Deprive My Liberal Friends

(#283904)
M Scott Eiland's picture

. . .of the opportunity to simultaneously beclown themselves and call attention to Romney's excellent efforts on behalf of the 2002 Winter Olympics? (As opposed to, say, Obama's miserably failed efforts in matters Olympic.) It's certainly better than the race huckster antics of Larry O' and Michael Tomansky.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

your comment reminded me of something. I put my finger on it.

(#283917)

I'll leave this to others

(#283907)

since I don't know much about how businesses are structured and run.

 

But I don't understand how you can be CEO, president, and Chairman of the Board at Bain yet not have had "any active role" in it, and not be in any way responsible or knowledgeable about its activities.   

You Can in Practice

(#283914)

But you can't legally.

 

Meaning it's possible, indeed probable, that Romney wasn't doing much those years, but he was legally responsible for those roles. This is fairly common. Think Steve Jobs and Pixar. Once Pixar was running smoothly and Jobs was back at Apple, he was for the most part an absentee CEO.

 

The thing is, this kind of informality is typical in boardrooms where 100K is just a little something to help with laundry service or wax the jet. But it's unfamiliar to the great unwashed who see their pay hit if they take a single day off.

 

Rather than pursue the felony route, this episode should be used to highlight that Romney plays by completely different rules, in a different world, from regular people. In other words, it highlights the aloofness angle.

 

I dunno, the O campaign could go with something like:

 

"We believe Gov. Romney is sincere when he says he had no role at Bain in 2001 and 2002. Yet he earned 100K per year during that time. A 100K salary for doing nothing, according to him, in writing

Can a man who earns that kind of money for doing nothing can understand the needs of Americans who have to do actual work to earn their money? We don't think so, and we believe Americans won't think so either."

 

Needs some tuning, especially the ending, but you get the idea.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

I don't think it's illegal

(#283924)
HankP's picture

at least I don't think he's criminally liable (but I'm no expert on SEC regulations). It is a stupid (and dangerous) position to put yourself in since you still have full liability but no control. Very easy to get blindsided. I'd also think the issuer of the directors and officers liability insurance policy would have a big problem with it, and if any liability issues arise he may not have the coverage he thought he had.

 

But it was a long time ago, and it's unlikely that he would face any claims based on it. Damn sloppy, though, and anyone involved in business with him in the future may ask for additional contractual guarantees.

I blame it all on the Internet

What I meant by legally,

(#283934)

was that he was still legally responsible for the company. Not that he was criminally liable. Though lying to Massachusetts might be another matter.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

Bain is just a bunch of suits

(#283938)

making financial deals, often as not to the detriment of the businesses they acquired ie regular folks. Its not like they are structured or have the wherewithal to actually make stuff.

 

So anyone who thinks Mitt didn't keep tight & effective control over the financial deals the suits made during his transition to 'public life', deals that might imperil or alternatively boost his multiple nest eggs all of which are tied to Bain, is playing the semantics game or simply deluding themselves.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

No, we don't know that

(#283940)
HankP's picture

he could have been actively involved, he could have received a weekly phone call to summarize what was going on, or he could have been completely out of the loop. The fact that his money was tied to Bain's fortune doesn't mean much if all the execs at Bain had their finances tied to Bain, since Romney wouldn't have to worry about their loyalties or incentives. So absent a tell-all from someone in Bain's top management, we really don't know the extent of his involvement post-99.

I blame it all on the Internet

Define 'actively involved'

(#283942)

Mitt certainly shouldn't lose much sleep over having to defending himself in an actual court of law arising out of any legal case made by the SEC or individual investors. But the court of public opinion is another matter.

 

“Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.”

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Of course the public can decide

(#283944)
HankP's picture

I've said before that it was stupid thing to do for management and liability reasons, but it's not unusual (at least with small businesses) that a corporate officer will have less involvement than one would think from their title. I wouldn't be surprised to find that a few of his companies had his wife Ann on the board, but I don't expect that she's do much in the way of actively managing a company.

I blame it all on the Internet

Ann Romney isn't running for President of these united states

(#283945)

..she's running for 1st lady. From the BJ comments section: “Yes, I was nominally in charge, but despite having my name on the business, I was kept completely in the dark and had no clue what was happening. Now vote for me for president because I’m a great businessman!”

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

She'd be a great 1st lady

(#284241)
stinerman's picture

First ladies always have their pet projects.  Laura Bush was big on literacy.  Michelle Obama is trying to lick obesity.  Ann Romney can introduce youth to dressage.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

Nothing against Ann Romney

(#284246)

..but her privileged existence isn't going to translate into too much in the way of inspiration or teaching moments for anyone but an equally pivileged few. Nonetheless I expect Mitts people will arrange for her to be associated with some deserving and innocuous cause or other. Perhaps something to do with MS. Just not dressage as MS relief. But who knows, it would be a great tax write off?

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Please go with that.

(#283906)

Really. Have at it.

"'Ere"

(#283870)

Are you suggesting ours is not, in actuality, a nation of laws?

 

 

Depends

(#283877)

on whether you are holding up a drug store - definitely, or shading the truth on SEC disclosures & you are the GOP nominee in a presidential election year - not hardly.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Report From Sanctuary (Diablo III)

(#283838)
M Scott Eiland's picture

After close to two months, I can report the following:

Barbarians--simple to play, hard hitting melee combatants. Tend to be more fragile at the higher difficulty levels.

Demon Hunters---very hard hitting ranged combatants. They tend to become very dependent on hit and run tactics at higher difficulty levels, as they are truly "glass cannons."

Monk--fast moving melee combatants with better defensive abilities than the barbarian. Looks promising to take into Inferno difficulty, though no class is truly safe at that level.

Wizard--spell caster who works well both at range and close up, though the former is safer as the difficulty level rises. Also looks promising for the higher difficulty levels.

Witch Doctor--haven't played this class much: has ranged powers and "pet" abilities. Apparently, this is the least played class though some swear by it.

Hardcore--death is cheap and inexpensive in the regular game, in hardcore 1 death is it for the character. Hardcore characters share a separate set of resources and have access to their own gold auction house (see below) and don't have a real money auction house. Am cautiously advancing a barbarian and a monk early in Normal difficulty here. Stay tuned.

Auction houses: with tens of thousands of people (at least) using the auction houses to buy and sell gear and commodities, just about anything a character might want is available either for game gold or real money. A piece of armor that is utterly useless to the character who found it might be worth a lot to some other character somewhere, which is a lot less frustrating than having to dump such an item as vendor trash in Diablo 2 used to be.

Stay tuned: I expect to take at least one character to Inferno level (leading to multiple curb stompings from the local wildlife) soon.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Government losses cancel 15% of private sector job growth

(#283816)

Thank goodness.....

(#283889)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

....most of those missing gov jobs were just make work, anyway.  Whew!

At least a 1/3rd were teachers

(#283896)

Educators are not working make-work jobs. 

 

So that's one way you're wrong. 

 

A second way is that make-work jobs aren't necessarily bad when the economy is depressed b/c of depressed aggregate demand. They're only bad when the private sector and public sector are competing for resources.

 

A third way you're wrong is the excessive anti-government attitude on display. That brain-dead attitude is also known as conservatism.

 

A fourth is the way you say you hate young children, puppies, and beauty itself. 

Wrong? You clearly haven't.....

(#283950)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

....had a kid in public school recently.  Hit-or-miss, as it were.  (Though mine haven't experienced anything quite like when they gave me a semi-retired bio teacher for math sophomore year in HS.....)

Maybe you should pay more for your teachers

(#283952)

and the quality would improve. What do TX public school teachers in your area earn again?

 

In most states they earn so little that any hits are fantastically productive given compensation, while even the misses probably aren't make-work b/c they're at least babysitters and they don't earn much more than babysitting wages.

 

 

LOL!

(#283964)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

I was talking about NY, (and NJ in my own case.)  The district we're in actually pays quite well, or so I am told.  Gave the Teacher of the Year a car last year.  (Not that this has prevented other sorts of silliness.)

What's "well"? And what are class sizes?

(#283965)

These are central to figuring out make-work status. Usually when I think about teacher compensation they seem massively underpaid, given the value of education and the number of students they are looking after.

 

... I didn't invariably have good public school teachers growing up either. 

 

But as an adult, and considering teachers educate hundreds of students while making as much as many office assistants or secretaries, I'm surprised I had as many good ones as I did.

Legal minimum is $27K

(#284123)

for 10 months work, by law.   The teachers I know (mostly science and math) typically start in the low to mid $30s in the Rio Grande Valley. The per capita income here is $9.9K and the median total household income is $24K, so teaching is considered an above-average job.

My guess is that's unrepresentative

(#284125)

A median household income of $24k is about 1/2 the national average.

 

I doubt mid-30s is 1/2 the national average of starting teacher salaries nationwide.

 

Public school teachers on average do not earn starting salaries of $70k in the US, though they arguably should.

Sure

(#284126)

but your question was whether TX paid teachers well, and the answer in the area where I live is that teaching is considered a very desirable job. 

Your area isn't representative of TX either

(#284130)

Median household income in TX is above the national average and more than 2x the median in your area.

 

A household in your area with one parent working a full-time job at minimum wage and another working a part-time minimum wage job will be above the median. Your area must rank among the poorer in the country.

I Had Very Good Teachers and Decades (but humiliation Stings)

(#283972)

 

...later, I am still tremendously appreciative of all they gave me.

 

Except for a community college French teacher that threw me out of beginning French when I was 50 years old....I'll never forgive the bastard for the treatment and humiliation he heaped on me.

 

As a side note, everyone in Community College beginning French had 3 years or so of High School French, they were there just for the easy grade, I was there to learn...of course I was always behind in the class....he would call me to the front of the class twice a week, every week,  but only me, to recited my verb tenses or this or that...but I did it because I had balls...

 

About half way through he told me in class that he no longer wanted me in the class, I was holding everyone else back.

 

I confess I was...it was true.

 

But if I saw my French teacher on the street today, I would strike him in the face.

 

Traveller

He doesn't hate them as long as they serve him

(#283899)
HankP's picture

in other words, he doesn't value anything intrinsically, only insofar as it serves his needs.

 

Which is monstrous, but not uncommon these days.

I blame it all on the Internet

I value plenty of things intrinsically.

(#283951)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

Really?

(#283954)
HankP's picture

Because that's not what I've gathered from several years of listening to you. No joke - you've said more than once that you only care about things if they help you and yours.

I blame it all on the Internet

Like what, BG?

(#283953)

how 'bout some examples here.

 

Art, truth, beauty, friendship, honor, knowledge, dignity - any of these make the list? 

 

 

Hardly...

(#283894)

You should know better. Those prized make-work positions are always the last to go in any bureaucracy, public or private.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

It's taste fine, if you don't want to drink whiskey

(#283812)
brutusettu's picture

Dude at work highly recommends Bird Dog Blackberry Flavored Whiskey :)

 

 

And HankP, I'd like my default to be this new and improved rich text editor.

"Jazz, the music of unemployment."

 

Frank Zappa

I don't fool with the flavored whiskies.

(#283853)

There's so much variety with the traditional whiskey that's available now that I'll never get my hands on each an every type.  Heck, just take a look at single-malt scotch.  There are just three ingredients, barley malt, yeast and water, but it can be peated, aged in different casks or combinations of casks, double or triple distilled etc and even with such little variety in methods of production we have a huge variety in taste.  Then you throw in the scotch blends, Irish, bourbon, Canadian all with much more variety in production and we're in the hundreds, if not thousands, of available selections.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

My rule of thumb

(#283863)
HankP's picture

(except for liqueurs) is that any flavored liquor uses low quality spirits as a base, since you won't be able to taste it anyway.

I blame it all on the Internet

Already covered it

(#283813)
HankP's picture

here.  If you want to change your default editor, go in to your personal settings and change it (the link that says "My Account" in the box on the right). Let me know if you have problems.

I blame it all on the Internet

Republican Senators who voted in '07 for a bill w. a mandate

(#283801)

Senator Party State 2007
Bob Bennett  R  UT   
Lamar Alexander  R  TN   
Norm Coleman  R  MN  
Bob Corker  R  TN  
Mike Crapo  R  ID   
Lindsey Graham  R  SC  
Chuck Grassley  R  IA   
Judd Gregg  R  NH    
Trent Lott  R  MS   
Gordon Smith  R  OR   
Arlen Specter R  PA

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthy_Americans_Act 

Not your daddy's Republican party any more

(#283802)

Jim DeMint would never vote for something like that.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Actually...

(#283970)

Even Jim DeMint was for the mandate once. Their real ideology is opportunism.

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

Buncha RINOs

(#283824)
HankP's picture

if they don't vote to reinstate the Articles of Confederation they're not real Republicans!

I blame it all on the Internet

Unfortunately, I expect you aren't far off the mark

(#283850)

hard to predict where this rightward drift will end.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

In a cave, eating raw meat. nt

(#283862)
HankP's picture

.

I blame it all on the Internet

I will not share that meat, and I will be free.

(#283864)

.

R2D2 eating a sandwhich

(#283798)

I thought y'all should see this: 

And There on the Left

(#283866)

is part time gaffer Illinois LeFabre, inspiration for a subsequent Lucas project.

Tunisia, right? Hope that suit was air conditioned. -nt-

(#283800)

.

"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

Ok Hank, I tried a new whiskey

(#283789)

Kilbeggan Irish Whiskey.  The smell is 'oaty' like Cheerios.  The taste, also oaty with a fruit flavor somewhere between bananas and pears.  The finish?  Well the first thing I thought of was Glenfiddich, a slight smokey salty taste.  For $21 a bottle, or in your case $67, one can hardly go wrong. 

Ok, so here's why I don't like to put these reviews out there.  From some pretentious A-hole on the web "Nose: Asparagus in melted parmesan butter, with a little red liquorice on the side."  Two thoughts immediately came to mind.  First, what was this guy drinking?  Next, what was this guy smoking?  Is there some contest going on for having the most asinine description of a whiskey?  half the time I feel like I have to go shopping just to buy then smell or taste half the stuff these guys use for descriptions.  When I see "Hint of mandrake root basted in giraffe milk..."  I just think somebody is a bit full of sh*t.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

I'm pretty sure

(#283794)
HankP's picture

no one's going to make fun of you for using the word "oaty" except me. And  think you're exaggerating, usually the adjectives used are more like vanilla, almond, cherry, etc., nothing really exotic. But yeah, some people get carried away.

 

Since my daughter is going to Oregon State, I pick up liquor there when I'm visiting (like I did in late June), I save over 20% compared to our new improved prices. Better selection too.

 

I tried a new one for you, Corner Creek Reserve Bourbon. Only about $22 per bottle. I'm not sure what to say, most of the reviews are awful but I really liked it - as did my wife, who isn't a huge bourbon fan. The bottle I had was relatively mild, dry but not astringent, spicy but not burning, with a well rounded, not too sweet flavor. Very smooth, nice rye flavor, not very complex but a nice drink.

 

 

I blame it all on the Internet

I once heard

(#283847)

Gary Vaynerchuk describe a wine as "petrol-ly". I understand the impulse to describe, but I'm quite happy with "ineffable". ;)

"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs

I've had a few that tasted

(#283848)

of thinners, so you never know.

No kidding

(#283859)
HankP's picture

I always describe Jagermeister as a cross between cough syrup and diesel fuel, and I feel that's pretty accurate.

I blame it all on the Internet

I did my last shot of that crap

(#283860)

more than 5 yrs ago. Never again.

David Brooks discovers inequality in 2012

(#283786)

Charles Murray wrote about it so now it's an issue.

 

Naturally, liberals need to think long and hard about approving of kids out of wedlock and old people need to have their medical care reduced.

 

But Brooks deserves credit for realizing that equality of opportunity doesn't remotely characterize the US, that it's been getting worse for decades, and that it's tearing the country apart.

 

#gradingonacurveforconservatives

"the alternative is national suicide"

(#283822)
mmghosh's picture

Heh.  Hyperbole much?

 

On another note, in the UK, apparently in 1990, only 2% of rock musicians went to private schools, whereas in 2010 it is 60% .

 

And theatre and performing arts is now definitely an upper class preserve.  So much for R H Tawney.

A recent article for Observer pointed out how many rising stars of the theatre world – notably Tom Hiddleston, Harry Lloyd, Eddie Redmayne and Harry Hadden-Paton – are graduates of a certain public school best-known for its association with the ruling class.

 

This has, I think, two major implications. Firstly, it tells us that the drama training these men received during their formative years was clearly of a high standard – not surprising considering that students at Eton have access to a fully kitted-out 400-seat theatre and a range of studios (and, for £30,000 a year, parents would surely expect nothing less).

Secondly, it tells us that in order to succeed in this business it helps to have money behind you. A lot of it, preferably. Considering the financial sacrifices that a creative career brings, this is hardly a revelation; when you take into account training fees (£10,000 a year at a top drama school) and the lowly paid "break-in" years, which usually involve doing work for nothing, it can seem a foolish path to tread considering there is no guarantee of return.

 

But if a young artist can afford to survive the early years of struggle unscathed, the rewards at the top of the industry are significant.

 

The good old days

(#283784)

"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group...that believes that you can do these things...their number is negligible and they are stupid" - Dwight Eisenhower

We used to keep slaves, too.

(#283890)
Bernard Guerrero's picture

Conservatives didn't used to compare Eisenhower to a slave owner

(#283900)

 That's changed.

No

(#283902)
HankP's picture

but Buckley and other "true conservatives" hated Eisenhower and hated the end of segregation.

I blame it all on the Internet

For you US domestic politics junkies

(#283773)

Do you think the medical marijuana initiatives are serving a similar function to the gay marriage bans in 2004 that helped turn out Republicans? 

 

i.e., this medical marijuana initiative in MA - is it designed to help out Democrats like Elizabeth Warren?

While sweating on the elliptical,

(#283752)
Bird Dog's picture

I found myself watching this (transcript here). Informative. I kind of like the Swiss model.

 

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

It's a good point. WH needs to inform everyone that the budget

(#283754)

impact of Obamacare is actually negative. That is, according to CBO the net impact of all provisions in the law will actually reduce the federal deficit by a small amount.

 

"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

No way this La. school voucher program is this out of whack

(#283740)
brutusettu's picture

First came the news that many of the schools that are taking voucher students had no facilities or teachers. Then we learned that many of the little schools opening their doors are Bible-based church schools that teach creationism and use textbooks in history, science and other subjects from Christian publishing houses.

 

Good thing for the kids in Louisiana that scary Muslim schools might come to the rescue.

 

 

Valarie Hodges admitted that when she supported Governor Bobby Jindal's school voucher program, she only did so because she assumed the religious school vouchers could only be used for Christian schools. .... She explains,

  •     I actually support funding for teaching the fundamentals of America's Founding Fathers' religion, which is Christianity, in public schools or private schools. I liked the idea of giving parents the option of sending their children to a public school or a Christian school.
     

"Jazz, the music of unemployment."

 

Frank Zappa

The grifters love charter schools

(#283742)
HankP's picture

the kids come out too ignorant to sue.

 

Also, isn't Ms. Hodges typical of the Republican understanding of the First Amendment? All religions are equal, but some are more equal than others.

I blame it all on the Internet

Jan Crawford update

(#283722)

... on tensions within the Supremes:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3460_162-57468202/discord-at-supreme-court-i...

Kennedy sure seems to have decisively shed that swing justice 'moderate' tag, perhaps he chaffed under it. Roberts probably needs to think about getting a dog.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Kennedy actually hasn't changed...he's ultra-libertarian,

(#283724)

and his rulings tend to confirm that. If it's about protecting individuals from federal intrusion, Kennedy's all over that sh-t.

"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

Freedom from healthcare

(#283727)

..weird bunch libertarians.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Catchy bait: philosophy network graph edition.

(#283710)

Via Kevin Drum, in a post with the damning title "Who is Edmund Husserl?" this really super nifty "influence graph" of western philosophers.

 

Warning: it's based on Wikipedia's "influenced by" section. I just zoomed in and found Christopher Hitchens between Wittgenstein, Fichte and Chomsky. 

"Hell is truth seen too late." --Thomas Hobbes

I had to look up Eric Voegelin and Leo Strauss

(#283739)
mmghosh's picture

I had no idea how influential they were/are.  Mr Voegelin seems to be a somewhat unconventional conservative.  Mr Strauss is different, it seems we may  Mr Strauss to thank for neo-conservatism and the Iraq war.  

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss

 

Interesting fellow.  And great link!

The top two nominees for non-story of the week

(#283696)
Bird Dog's picture

One, Anderson Cooper's Big Announcement. 

Two, Palin was treated differently by the media compared to Biden. Gee, ya think?

If Romney were smart, he'd pick Condoleeza for a running mate.

 

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

No sh*t Sherlock

(#283702)

When one Presidential candidate debases themselves and their candidacy with the sort of unconventional 'game changing - hail Mary' choice McCain came up with. Well, that sort of thing is to be expected.

  If Romney were smart, he'd pick Condoleeza for a running mate.

I fully endorse your suggestion. Looking forward to it, rubbing my hands. Double dare ya GOP.

 

Rice is a well established and capable individual and a much better test of whether the media would treat a female candidate differently than a man. But then we all know her Achilles heel wouldn't be the media, don't we?

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Well put

(#283726)
stinerman's picture

Condoleeza Rice isn't an idiot...which I believe disqualifies her as being in the running for the GOP's VP candidate.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

Not where I was going, but that works too

(#283728)

.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

She Doesn't Want The Job

(#283697)
M Scott Eiland's picture

And I'm pretty sure it's not false modesty or a "not yet" response--she has no desire to serve in elected office. Given her other options in life--heck, she might actually be NFL commissioner someday if Goodell moves on to bigger and better things--it's hard to blame her.

Oh, and the two items you mentioned were *stories*--they just weren't *news*. Given Cooper's family background, I'm just relieved that he--as far as we know--didn't end up as a serial killer.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

From "sorry" to "major ally"

(#283693)
Bird Dog's picture

Pakistan got its apology and now the supply routes are open. Just a few days later, the U.S. upgraded its diplomatic relationship with Afghanistan to "major ally". Nice move. But, as Dexter Filkins amply points out, Afghanistan will be under-resourced after combat troops are scheduled to leave in 2014. More on the AfPak relationship here. Meantime, the Taliban continues to show its true stripes.

"Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency."

--Barack Obama, January 2009

Heh. "Truckers rejoice"

(#283741)
mmghosh's picture

as a commentator in Dawn puts it.

 

http://dawn.com/2012/07/04/truckers-rejoice-as-nato-supply-routes-reopen/

No matter how much you thump your chests and talk about 'honor', etc. Pakistan is dependent on Aid and the US holds the purse strings. Reopening the NATO supply lines had to happen.

 

Lets look at the ground realities NATO supplies are transported on Pakistani vehicles, travel on Pakistani roads, look at the amount of employment and revenue they are generating can Pakistan offer alternate employment when the country's economy is in a tailspin?

Let Me Add a Further Very Difficult Question....

(#283689)

...what would the internet be like, and how developed would it be today had the Puritan Blue-noses been successful in banning porn content in all its varieties as they came so close to successfully achieving in the late 1990's?

 

Seriously, would the internet be anything like what it is now...along what lines would it have develped...and would it have developed at all?

 

Curious.

 

Traveller

"5 Ways Porn Created The Modern World"

(#283691)
M Scott Eiland's picture