In another recent thread, one of the site's respected liberal posters associated "anti-intellectualism" with "the right." One of the site's respected conservative posters responded by accusing the liberal of perpetuating a hackneyed "liberals = smart, conservatives = dumb" argument.
With respect, "me smart, you stupid" is not the message here. Extremely intelligent people can promote anti-intellectualism for their own purposes.
I'm sure most Republican leaders think intellectuals are just fine and might even let one marry their sister if she is sufficiently gentle about the way she breaks the news. And I'm not claiming that Democrats are perfectly "pro-intellectual," nor indeed that any party should be perfectly pro-intellectual.
But I do notice these things:
When I hear mockery of universities and academics, it is much more likely that a conservative is speaking than a liberal.
It is the Republican Party that harbors adherents of several policies, many of which are somehow at least argumentatively related to the politically all-important abortion issue, that in one way or another inhibit or fail to sufficiently promote scientific research.
It is Republicans who politically align with the creationists and their sophist offshoots, the IDers.
It is conservatives who deny public patronage to artists because of the astonishing fact that some artists hold and express unconventional views that may offend the mores of majoritarians.
It is Republicans who ridicule and boycott performance artists who dare to voice their political opinions.
It is the right, in concert with its conservative sponsors, that consistently fights the global warming science for motivations that are becoming more and more nakedly political.
I call those policies and acts anti-intellectual, and they emanate in their overwhelming majority from one side of the political spectrum.


Universities And Professors. . .
(#5795). . .have earned the contempt being directed at them these days. If I was a parent faced with the prospect of paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to educate a child at one of these cesspools of political correctness and reified deconstructionism, I'd probably go postal on those idiots. It certainly isn't Republicans who have been importing all of this brain-dead and dishonest nonsense into American higher education, so it's hardly surprising that many Republicans find it objectionable.
The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
Exhibit A
(#5802)nt
No Kidding
(#5809)What's the Pink Floyd song? Comfortably dumb? Numb?
Anti-intellectualism contains, I suppose, its own reward. Smug self-satisfaction.
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
Thought I might get some help
(#5810):)
You mean B
(#5812)Exhibit A is the main post.
“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
I Know You Are But What Am I? (I'm Rubber, You're Glue)
(#5813)Kewl. First time usage on the new site? It's about time!!
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
Easy, now.
(#5816)He is admitting M Scott's #5795 is an exhibit, after all; and, really, you don't think the main post is a little heavy on the sanctimony and self-congratulation? Not even a little?
A man must be orthodox upon most things, or he will never even have time to preach his own heresy.
Heh
(#5819)I'm not sure that's what he meant, but I'm more than happy to accept your translation!!
Self-congratulation? Nah, I don't think so. Sanctimony? Again, don't see it.
That doesn't mean I see no room for disagreement. And you make a valid/interesting point upthread re the fed funding of the arts -- tho' I'd suggest the usual conservative objection to same is the result of a far less nuanced view.
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
OK.
(#5823)I'm not sure that's what he meant, but I'm more than happy to accept your translation!!
Well, a propos of the sub-thread: "There is no 'outside' the text." ;)
And you make a valid/interesting point upthread re the fed funding of the arts -- tho' I'd suggest the usual conservative objection to same is the result of a far less nuanced view.
Maybe that's true, re: the 'usual conservative objection'; but I'm not sure that ought to matter. One ought to be interested in arguing against the strongest possible version of one's opponent's positions, I think, even if that version is more nuanced, or more coherent, or more compelling than anything that particular opponent could offer.
And that, come to think of it, is perhaps the strongest apology for 'intellectuals' (and perhaps academics, too). To that extent that such a task (normatively, if not actually) defines their work, I'd say it's a praiseworthy thing. Which makes Trickster's post, if not 'anti-intellectual', then at least non-intellectual.
A man must be orthodox upon most things, or he will never even have time to preach his own heresy.
I like your position
(#5835)That "[o]ne ought to be interested in arguing against the strongest possible version of one's opponent's positions." But see my response to you above as to the limited intention of my diary entry. In that light, your accusations of sanctimony and self-congratulation might be seen as a violation of your own rule.
Admittedly, it is a difficult rule to constantly follow, as desirable as that might be.
Hey now.
(#5841)I never said I was an intellectual; I doubt that role and that of a blog commentator are even compatible. ;)
In any case, the accusation of self-congratulation and sanctimony was a bit on the heavy-handed side. To that extent, I apologize. However, I don't think the position with which you agreed entails simply overlooking the flaws of the actually existing argument.
A man must be orthodox upon most things, or he will never even have time to preach his own heresy.
Please
(#5824)He's a busy man. He doesn't have to time fully read, let alone comprehend every post. Much easier for him to just recycle a throwaway line regardless of it's square peg/round hole nature.
“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
Wow, Tetchy Dude
(#5826)C'mon, son. You've been dragging out variations of this rhetorical conceit -- tho' the grade schoolers who invented it probably wouldn't think to call it a 'conceit' -- since the beginning of Tacitus time. Nothing wrong with that. Except, of course, pretending that you don't.
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
Don't forget
(#5834)To separate the paper and the plastic.
“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
That lonely period is so declasse
(#5838)Space bar!
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
Awww, snap!
(#5827)[grabs some popcorn, gets ready for some intra-troika smackdown]
A man must be orthodox upon most things, or he will never even have time to preach his own heresy.
As If I Would Stoop to That
(#5828)Heh.
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
Nope!
(#5993)Even in the nominative case, given the different causality of the spacial relationships implied in using Exhibit A over Exhibit B where as: A equals the first subset of an ordered pairing
and B equals the second subset of the same pairing:
the frequency and use of the phrase exhibit A in television court room dramas here defined as x:
we find that utilizing the phrase "Exhibit A" delivers far more yucks than using the phrase "Exhibit B".
I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
Just to be clear.
(#5811)In my above defense of the position(s) I took Trickster to be illicitly dismissing, this is not the kind of thing I meant to defend. I doubt this much bothers Scott (or the anyone else moved to sanctimoniously decry the 'cesspools' of academia), but I wanted to make my own position clear.
A man must be orthodox upon most things, or he will never even have time to preach his own heresy.
your position isn't clear, to me at least
(#5951)you mentioned one point of disagreement with Trick, but then failed to comment upon/avoided the larger question of whether in totale the US right is more aligned with anti-intellectualism than the US left.
so forgetting how the view will play here on the forvm amongst our conservative brethren, what's your opinion?
They reified deconstruction?
(#5818)What horrors next? Rational Romanticism? Endarkenment? Unseemly semiotics? Wearing jeans at a formalist seminar? Holding the May 4th Movement in June?
Speaking of paradox, this comment makes you out to be smarter than the brain-dead academics; could well be true but it hardly counts as anti-intellectualism....
M Aurelius was probably right.
Endarkenment. Heh. nt
(#5825)“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
Wait, you actually know what that means?
(#5829)Without googling?
Serious question.
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
Oh So Tempting to Pretend
(#5836)But nah, not a clue. Just like the way it sounds. And given the thread context, the Tolkien ring of it seemed quite apt.
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
Isn't it
(#5837)just a play on 'enlightenment'? Is there some other meaning?
A man must be orthodox upon most things, or he will never even have time to preach his own heresy.
It has to do with the speed of Dark, right? nt
(#5839)I blame it all on the Internet
Easy: speed of light minus 12.
(#5914)What do I win?
M Aurelius was probably right.
That's only in the board game version. nt
(#6143)I blame it all on the Internet
Google this under endarkenment..
(#6110)http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/full/19/12/1581?ijkey=JDGP67fLHMj8o&keytype=ref&siteid=fasebj
Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and yo
That link embiggened all our lives. Thank you. -nt-
(#6132).
M Aurelius was probably right.
I had actually already googled and was shocked that others
(#6135)didn't need to. OK, more embarrassed than shocked.
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
Are we getting a pony for Christmas?
(#5806)No need to stock up on this much straw unless we're getting a pony.
Will crush dissent for food
I don't suppose it would be worth your time
(#5814)to explain why you disagree with the specifics of the post?
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
What Jackson said
(#5833)and I would add that most of the examples of 'intellectual' that are used long ago exchanged intellectual rigor for 'new' and 'shocking'. It is their pretension and pomposity that are held up as objects of ridicule, and an understanding that they are but pale imitations of previous generations who actually earned the designation as 'intellectuals'. Compare Cornel West to W.E.B DuBois as but one example.
Will crush dissent for food
Well I don't care about English or History
(#5840)but I can't help but perceive the Republican party as dismissing the value of science -- that's the kind of anti-intellectualism that concerns me. I don't see the advances in science as being "new" or "shocking" I see them as being "incremental" and, frankly, "obvious", and so it bothers me tremendously when I hear Republicans trying to knock scientific results by attacking the supposed motivation of scientists, or trying to gin up a lack of clarity by funding hack think-tanks paid to pretend they are conducting science, or acting like the opinion of the man in the street is somehow equivalent to that of a leading researcher with decades of experience. Sorry, that's a long sentence, but my point is that the assault on science is coming from one side of the aisle, and I'd call it a form of anti-intellectualism.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
or art, for that matter
(#5842)I think most modern art is crap.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Well some of it
(#5845)Literally is!
However, I don't think "most" is a fair assertion.
“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
Lies!
(#5847)Well ok. In the interests of being sort of fair, here's some really cool "modern art" (disclaimer -- that page is linked from a discussion of tilt-shift photography and since I don't know Japenese I have no idea what the blog as a whole is about).
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Are you telling me...
(#5856)...that you don't like this or this?
Guard, protect and cherish your land, for there is no afterlife for a place that started out as Heaven.
I suspect Brendan meant "current" as his defintion of
(#5860)"modern."
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
By the way, Love VG, Kandinsky? Nah <nt>
(#5862)xxx
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
Yup
(#5984)and yup
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Someone has too much time on their hands
(#5988)Is this a sign of trouble in the Japanese economy, with attendant layoffs of skilled dioramists? And is that Akebono in the sumo dohyo?
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson
I think most crap is modern art.
(#5982)of the "Found Objects" school, of course.
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson
Plenty Of Manure Without The Pony There nt
(#5821)The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.
A small twist.
(#5808)You write, "Extremely intelligent people can promote anti-intellectualism for their own purposes;" this gives a sheen of unseemliness to anyone who is both intelligent and 'anti-intellectual', as if it's necessarily motivated by (say) cynical populism.
But there's good reason to think 'intellectual' implies more than just intelligence; it implies, in a stronger sense, someone who takes there to be a special and dignified social and political function for intellect or rationality. One needn't be motivated by any kind of cynicism to be suspicious of this kind of person; a committment to the normative force of tradition, say, or an abhorrence at so-called 'social engineering' schemes (e.g.) - leaving aside whether these positions are 'correct' - admit of intelligent articulation, and deserve to be taken seriously.
As for your particular complaints, I'm a little astonished you're willing to label the efforts to deny funding to 'controversial' artists as anti-intellectual, of of a piece with anti-intellectualism. It seems to me a consistent position to think that art has a moral-pedagogical value, and one should be careful with art that flies in the face of popular mores; it's also a consistent position to think that art oughtn't be publicly, or perhaps only federally, funded. Anti-intellectualism, even if you take it to mean only something like 'impassivity in the face of rational claims' or misology, hardly seems germane here. And that makes me wonder - though you wish to present your partisan position as stemming from your committment to rationality, it seems all too possible that - here anyway - the reverse is true.
A man must be orthodox upon most things, or he will never even have time to preach his own heresy.
As for the value of anti-intellectualism
(#5832)or lack thereof, that's for another post. I'm not arguing that Republican/conservative anti-intellectualism is a blight upon the nation, but simply that there is a fair argument to be made that it exists. The statement that smarties might pursue intellectualism for their own purposes does not gainsay the possibility that they might also do so altruistically. It just doesn't emphasize that possibility (which is in fact one I perceive only rather dimly).
As for art, I had a creative writing instructor who frequently urged us that the purpose of art is to shock. While I don't go that far, I will certainly rise in opposition to the proposition that "one whould be careful with art that flies in the face of popular mores." Shaking people up and getting them to "think outside the box" is undoubtedly one of the core functions of art (if it is to be thought of functionally). There are certain, albeit rare, exceptions, but as a general view art that is entirely unobjectionable is bad art.
As for public fundings of the arts, while I certainly support it, and with enthusiasm, the arguments for that support are subtle, touchy-feely even, and it's not my desire to engage in that debate here. What I'm talking about is the argument as it tends to appear in the political sphere, i.e., not as an argument against public funding of the arts, but an argument against public funding of Example X of Offensive Art. Such an argument seems to be based on the principle that government can fund art but only middle-brow pablum art, and that there should be a committee of politicians--I'm sorry, of Republican politicians--who should sit in judgment on the acceptability of art.
Trickster's Problem,
(#5961)it seems to me, lies in the remarkably loose way he seems to define "anti-intellectualism." His post seems to regard as "anti-intellectual" a series of policy or social positions that oppose things that he believes are demonstrably true or that have merit. But to oppose Trickster's views on these matters hardly constitutes "anti-intellectualism." It seems obvious to me that "anti-intellectualism" would have to be the explicit denigration of the process of applying reason and experience to gathered facts as a way of thinking about problems. And it is, as you point out, entirely possible to arrive at the conclusion -- through the application of reason and experience to fact -- that, say, many performance artists are raging nutjobs who deserve ridicule (and, more seriously, that abortion is a moral evil; and that, while scientific inquiry itself is value-neutral, the use of its fruits must be guided by established morality).
One can argue all of these things, and oppose Trickster's views (and the views of the Left generally) without being anti-intellectual. What is interesting to me, though, is that Trickster's perspective really does highlight one of the things that most drives me nuts about the Left, which is its astonishing arrogance -- its presumption that, if you don't buy the full slate, from abortion-rights to gay marriage to naked "artists" flinging doo around the stage, it cannot be because there are defensible bases for articulting an opposing view; it must be because you're just too dumb to get it (or, as Trickster more politely put it, you're "anti-intellectual").
That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.
Trickster's views
(#5986)The only view I purport to put forth here is the assertion that the various practices I describe may be labeled with the term "anti-intellectual" and are associated more closely with conservatives and/or Republicans than with liberals and/or Democrats. As I have noted, I use the term "anti-intellectual" as it is defined in the web definitions I have linked to, with the exception that I have explicitly disavowed the words "smug and ignorant" from the Wordster definition.
To break it down even further, I would say that intellectualism is the encouragement and promotion of scientific rationality and of the free exchange of ideas. I would say that anti-intellectualism is hostility or negligent indifference toward scientific rationality and the free exchange of ideas.
I do not intend to assert that intellectualism is always good nor that anti-intellectualism is always bad. I explicitly disavowed those assertions in my original diary entry when I wrote that "I'm not claiming that . . . any party should be perfectly pro-intellectual" and have clarified that intent throughout this thread. As I also wrote in the original diary entry, I was motivated to write it by my disagreement with a conservative poster's assertion that anyone who lodges a complaint of anti-intellectualism against conservatives is saying nothing more than that liberals are smart and conservatives are dumb. I hope to have shown that there are other reasons for staking that claim.
So, finally, when you say this:
What is interesting to me, though, is that Trickster's perspective really does highlight one of the things that most drives me nuts about the Left, which is its astonishing arrogance -- its presumption that, if you don't buy the full slate, from abortion-rights to gay marriage to naked "artists" flinging doo around the stage, it cannot be because there are defensible bases for articulting an opposing view; it must be because you're just too dumb to get it
I have to say that your perspective really does highlight one of the things that most drives me nuts about the Right, which is its astonishing arrogance--it's presumption that whatever a non-conservative says must be pigeonholed into a pre-conceived box of "liberal fallacies."
No, I Think I Understood Your Post
(#6020)Your purpose was to suggest that the political Right tends to align itself with certain positions that you characterize as "anti-intellectual." I get that. I also get that your list of issues and positions was designed to support that proposition.
My point is simply that to characterize the views that oppose yours (or, to be fair, the Left's) on these matters as "anti-intellectual" is to do the very thing that you say you're not doing -- which is to deny the possibility that your opponent's views can be grounded in reason, and to default to the contention that your opponent is simply "anti-intellectual." In fact, there are solid "intellectual" grounds for opposing the Left on all of these matters (though whether the Republican Party does so responsibly is another matter), and a charge of anti-intellectualism is just a way of dodging that reality (and from a cultural perspective, really does just invoke the notion, popular among lefties, that righties are at bottom just dumb).
As for your final paragraph, fair enough.
That's how it is on this bitch of an earth.
Not 5000 words
(#5815)When I hear mockery of universities and academics, it is much more likely that a conservative is speaking than a liberal.
And in many cases, conservatives who have been "in the cesspool." Academics and intellectuals are not identical.
It is the Republican Party that harbors adherents of several policies, many of which are somehow at least argumentatively related to the politically all-important abortion issue, that in one way or another inhibit or fail to sufficiently promote scientific research.
And this is "anti-intellectual" how exactly?
It is Republicans who politically align with the creationists and their sophist offshoots, the IDers.
True, but again, how is such an alignment "anti-intellectual?" Looks to me like poilitcs as usual, stretching to gain a majority.
It is conservatives who deny public patronage to artists because of the astonishing fact that some artists hold and express unconventional views that may offend the mores of majoritarians.
Not this one, it just ain't the job for government and I don't care if they are funding John Phillips Sousa and Frederick Remington. But again, how is this "anti-intellectual?"
It is Republicans who ridicule and boycott performance artists who dare to voice their political opinions.
Riiiight. And lefties make movies about assassinating our President. What does any of this have to do with being "anti-intellectual?"
It is the right in concert with its conservative sponsors, that consistently fights the global warming science for motivations that are becoming more and more nakedly political.
Call me when the anthropogenic models can even accurately portray the past and we'll talk.
I call those policies and acts anti-intellectual, and they emanate in their overwhelming majority from one side of the political spectrum.
You can of course call them whatever you like. Doesn't mean anyone will listen. A definition of anti-intellectual would help as most of your examples have, in my mind nothing whatever to do with "intellectual" at all (the Dixie Chicks? heh.)
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
Lets talk definitions
(#5844)Most of your post, or at least a fair chunk of it, seems to involve questions as to why I call criticism or suppression of the arts and sciences "anti-intellectual." So let's take some definitions from Answer.com:
American Heritage Dictionary
an·ti-in·tel·lec·tu·al (?n't?-?n'tl-?k'ch?-?l, ?n't?-) adj. Opposed or hostile to intellectuals or intellectual views.
OK, that's totally vague, pretty much an etymological definition. Let's look elsewhere.
Wordnet
The adjective anti-intellectual has one meaning:
Meaning #1: smug and ignorant and indifferent or hostile to artistic and cultural values.
A little more like it. One may clearly see how suppression or even the failure to promote diverse artistic views fits into this definition. "[S]mug and ignorant" is a little stronger than what I was going for.
Wikipedia
Anti-intellectualism describes a sentiment of hostility towards, or mistrust of, intellectuals and intellectual pursuits. This may be expressed in various ways, such as an attack on the merits of science, education, or literature.
Well. This one drives right down main street of your questions, I think. So that's why I call that stuff "anti-intellectual."
And doesn't fit most of your examples
(#5848)Nobody is attacking the merits of science education or literature in most of your examples. They are attacking the public funding of them in two cases, the specifics of the Dixie Chicks judgement on politcal matters in another and denying scientific proof based upon models in another.
It just doesn't meet the sweeping criteria you just cited.
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
Disagreements...
(#6058)...with conventional theory is anti-intellectual?
Now if anything is anti-intellectual...then...
Universities are not the only redoubts of education
(#5861)There are other experiences like starting a business, or attending Community College. For around $1500 I took an American Revolution course at the University of Michigan where I leaned about salves, Caribbeans, and Indians in colonial American, but didn’t touch upon the Declaration, the Constitution, the causes leading up to, or the aftermath of, the American Revolution. In contrast after I graduated UM I took a Civil War course at the local Community College for about $300 that covered the cause, the major battles, and the aftermath of the war. In my opinion the Community College course was in every way superior to the university one so universities are not always the best institutions for learning per say, unless the one thing you cherish above all others is an exaggerated role of minorities in American history. And if you dare you challenge that exaggerated role at a university it is highly likely you’d be shouted off the stage as a racist. Therefore mocking universities isn’t analogous to mocking learning, only a certain type (overly PC) of learning.
It isn’t so-called global warming science that is fought, it is the nakedly political solutions (higher taxes, regulation) that most conservatives object to.
In regards to art, a good artist will make it on their own. As for bad artists, well, the world needs ditch diggers too.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
How'd you like to mow my lawn?
(#5864)Maybe after you could drop by the club, mmm? Mmmm?
Judge Smales, good to see ya!
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
I want a hamburger.. no a cheeseburger. I want a hot dog
(#5872)I want a...
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
You'll get nothing and like it! (Sorry, couldn't resist) nt
(#5875)xxx
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
No doubt
(#5867)Move to a new city in a foreign country if you want to learn a whole lot real fast. Do that 3 or 4 times and you have an advanced degree in practicality.
On the other hand, the statement that "universities are not always the best institutions for learning per say, unless the one thing you cherish above all others is an exaggerated role of minorities in American history" is an absurd caricature. I've spent a decade of my life studying at three different universities and barely got a teaspoon of this.
Absurd?
(#5885)Then why are there African American, Native American, Asian American, Hispanic American, Women’s, and Peace Study departments funded by major universities if not to make all these groups feel good about themselves? Whatever passes for research in these departments can’t pass the muster of a respectable History department, otherwise there’d be no need to separate them in the first place.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
Ummm
(#5892)Because there are serious academics who want to study those disciplines and because there are students who want to take the courses
History is a might big subject, once you start talking about the totality of study, learning and research. It's a pie big enough to be sliced into hundreds of pieces. Different schools take different administrative approaches to pie-slicing.
Hardly
(#5902)Serious academics aren’t suspected of grade inflation as Cornell West famously is.
Engineering is a big subject too, but there aren’t separate departments to administer its subfields, only separate programs within the School of Engineering.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
Hmmm
(#5906)My brother teaches in the Department of Civil Engineering at Alabama. His son, my nephew, has a degree from the Department of Aeronautical Engineering at Alabama. I'm not looking at an org chart, but I'm thinking there are 10 or so engineering departments at Alabama.
As I said already, different schools take very different administrative approaches to department integration/splitting.
Both degrees from the School of Engineering
(#5929)as a African American studies and a History degree would be awarded from LSA. The difference being the learning experiences for the engineering degrees rate separate departments, the two LSA degrees don’t.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
Factually Incorrect
(#6342)You are entirely incorrect. The engineering school I attended, and all others of which I am aware, separate the various disciplines by department.
--- I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered. My life is my own.
See comment 5929
(#6347)I flubed what I was trying to distinguish here.
"We should not tie the hands of law enforcement in the effort to bring these terrorists to justice"- Leon E. Panetta
Some are serious academics, some not.
(#5966)Here we have a huge Hawaiian Studies department at the University of Hawaii. The Hawaiians had no written language, were divided into largely hostile groups without a common oral history, and lacked any real records of events until the chronicles of the missionaries. Even the date and circumstances of the colonization of the Islands by what are now called Hawaiians, but who emigrated here from the Marquesas or perhaps Tahiti, and may have exterminated an indigenous population, are obscure.
But all of this does not prevent the embellishment and often outright fabrication of a feel-good cultural "history" that denigrates the contributions of "haoles" (white Americans and Europeans, the ubiquitous whipping boys of current cultural "historians"), and a rejection of the written record whenever it suits the fabricators. After all, that record was created by whites, so how can it be trusted?
This kind of culturally relativistic, make it up as you go along stuff may be fun and satisfying to anyone longing for victimhood, but it hardly merits the time, dollars and serious scholarship of a university that wants to be nationally respected. UH has nationally recognized departments of astronomy and oceanography. But I bet the standards in the Hawaiian Studies department are so low that Ward Churchill could get a tenured job there if he simply pretended to be part Hawaiian. (I hear he's good at faking his ethnicity.)
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson
Now Tomsyl
(#5969)While I agree with the near fairy tale approach to the pre-Haole invasion of the islands is pretty funny, even you will admit that the behavior of the American and Europeans who "settled" in Hawaii and subsequently brought her under us control was not a bright spot.
We stole Hawaii fair and square as I see it.
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
Not the issue.
(#5980)I'm talking about recorded history. And the record that allows us to determine what led to the territorial annexation of the Kingdom was created largely by . . . haoles.
And for the record, my folks didn't steal anything. They emigrated from Portugal to your fair Island (Sprecklesville [now Pa'ia], to be exact) in the 1870s and became citizens of the Kingdom of Hawaii. That, of course, means that when someone says that all Americans are descended from immigrants, they are excluding me because my forebears became Americans through annexation of the Hawaiian Islands. You could say in a way that America came to us.
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson
I seem to recall
(#5985)Isn't there a fair size Portaguese community on the Big Island?
“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
I think you're right
(#6032)but I rarely venture there except on business or to see a really major volcanic eruption. It's big, jungly and spooky there, and the natives are restless. (Natives here meaning rich people fighting against public shoreline access in Kailua-Kona.) Maps often don't show the Big Island; instead they bear the legend "Here there be Dragons."
Actually, I ddi some work for Bill Keck once and so got to see the Keck Telescope on Mauna Kea while it was still being built. I even climbed to the top of the dome - a very dumb thing to do at 14,000 ft. Most of the imaging goes on down at Kamuela now, so it is possible to see the splendors of the universe without bursting alveoli.
Unfortunately, Portugese are considered the equivalent of "Polacks" here, so while I wear my "Portagee" label with pride, I doubt anyone smart enough to be an astronomer would let one of us actually touch a telescope.
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson
Portagee as Polacks?
(#6062)I hadn't run into that here on Maui, though the community here certainly isn't as prominent as most others are. Huh.
Now of course the idea of you as a Polack :)
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
Seriously.
(#6067)I've heard pretty much every single 'Polack' joke as a 'Portagee' joke over the past couple of years. You gotta hang more with descendents of Japanese plantation workers. :) Long memories, apparently.
"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes
We're pretty Filipino dominated on Maui's South Side <nt>
(#6092)xxx
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
Having dealt with Hawaiian Studies,
(#5987)It's a ghetto in a lot of ways -- both self-imposed and non. That said, someone really ought to be doing scholarship on Hawaiian language and history, and it really ought to be done in Hawai`i.
Most of the "xxx studies" groups to me seem like a way to separate out the folks who are trying to establish a new subdiscipline and let them do the contentious and difficult work of laying out a consensus approach without it carrying over into the larger discipline. The relative lack of standards also allows talented amateurs into the field, with the attendant benefits and costs. Eventually, the field professionalizes and folds back into the larger mainstream, bringing with it its new insights.
"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes
You're right, Kimmitt, but . . .
(#6038)the "consensus approach" is entirely lacking here. An example: my father owned what by some standards was a major collection of Hawaiian historical literature. When my parents retired to the Mainland he offered it to my cousin, who is half Hawaiian and very active in the Hawaiian Studies dept at UH. Her response: the HS dept only wanted the books that weren't written by haoles. (I'm not sure there even were more than ten out of hundreds of volumes.)
Being a little on the obstinate side (unlike me), my father withdrew the offer rather than break up the collection. Net gain to UH students: 0. Net gain to my cousin's ego: priceless.
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson
That's an excellent comment Kimmitt
(#6063)I hadn't thought about the ethnic/gender disciplinse that way. One question, do you have any historical evidence that they actually do grow up and get folded back in?
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
Seen any new African-American studies depts lately?
(#6065)The old ones linger until the tenured profs retire, and eventually they get reabsorbed into Poli Sci, Sociology, and/or History -- or remain as a scaffold for folks interested in interdisciplinary work.
The one place this won't happen soon is Women's Studies, simply because their area of study is just too large to be refolded and because of the ongoing sexism in academia which does require constant attention.
"In the very long run, we are all dead." -- John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes
Harvard still has one, as do Yale and Swarthmore
(#6097)Priceton does not. I only checked those four and got a 75% hit rate.
I'm trying to make the best out of a bad situation. I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home!
Henry Louis Gates, Jr.
(#6136)The guy's a whole department unto himself, whaddya expect?
M Aurelius was probably right.
Just a few comments
(#5950)Regarding "boycotts" of performing artists, two examples come to mind: Cat Stevens and the Dixie Chicks. The former quietly left the scene altogether, but the DCs continue to complain stridently about "boycotts", suppression of their free speech rights, etc. etc. ad nauseum. The DCs can say whatever they want, whenever they want to whoever will listen. (Seems like most of their listeners these days are foreigners.) But I can't see any legitimacy to the argument that former fans' refusal to buy their CDs or concert tickets, or to listen to them on the radio, is somehow unfair or an infringement on their rights.
Given the generally low level of education of most performers, their knee-jerk liberalism and their obvious lack of knowledge about global affairs that don't involve African adoptions, very few of them have anything useful or enlightening to say. They are free to use their bully pulpits to inflict their naive and painfully cliche'd political views on anyone who will listen, but with that comes the consequence of audience alienation. Any of them not understanding that proves the point about how little they have to say that is worth hearing.
By "global warming" I assume you mean anthropogenic global warming. I am willing to discuss at length the flaws in Mann et al.'s theories on which AGW is based. But far more important is the virtually complete failure of AGW's true believers to discuss the economic consequences of the remedial measures they propose, or the enormous flaws in the Kyoto Accord/Protocol. Suggesting that people who don't accept AGW as a fact are harbingers of anti-intellectualism on the Right suggests (1) an incomplete understanding of the weaknesses of the theories underlying the AGW doctrine and (2) a lack of awareness of the huge eco-industry that would lose billions of dollars in grants and donations if it stopped imitating Nostradamus.
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson
Foreigners?
(#5963)Tell that to my daughter, who just had to explain to her daughter why they were unable to see the Dixie Chicks sold-out show here in Austin. I understand they're about to sell out Dallas, also.
Must be a Texas thing.
"There are sneakers that cost more than an iPod." -Steve Jobs
Dixie Chicks!!
(#5990)The story, as is often the case, is more complicated than the usual spew and excrete would indicate -- and Barbara Koppel's doc on the subject will probably get an Academy Award nom (the horrors!) -- but it's only fair to point out that 1) a clear majority of the country now agrees with Ms. Maines, 2) they were the biggest selling act in country music when this happened, 3) Boycotts by Clear Channel and other radio stations are not a figment of their imagination, and worth a complaint or two.
And the dismissive comment re 'the generally low level of education of most performers' is elitist, wholly moronic, and not worth further notice.
But the line re the Chicks and all their "foreigners" was funny, if nothing else.
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
OK Harley, PU or SU
(#6009)According to you, the dismissive comment re 'the generally low level of education of most performers' is elitist, wholly moronic, and not worth further notice.
Ignoring your typical hyperbole (and resisting the urge to quote that geopolitical genius B. Streisand PhD.'s comment to a heckler at her last concert), you're an excellent participant for a study because among us you may be the most familiar with the unique, ah, personalities inhabiting Hollywood. How many of them have a college education? Half? A quarter? A tenth? Would you agree that on average their level of education is lower than that of the soldiers Kerry dissed?
What does your claim that "a clear majority of the country now agrees with Ms. Maines" have to do with the price of lapsang souchong in Kowloon? They're obviously not buying the DCs' records or concert tickets, or listening to CW stations. The DCs aren't whining about people not agreeing with them - they're bitching about lost $$$ from album sales .
I know you tend to be defensive about this segment of society, presumably because you work with these people and respect their talents. However, I would have to think hard to come up with an instance where a Hollywood celeb said something on any political subject that indicated she/he was better informed than I was on same. (The sole exception is the adoption laws of small African countries.) And whatever you think about them, you have to admit that Hollywood celebs are as lock-step with each other as those soldiers marching in the background whenever that comical kook from N. Korea gives a speech.
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson
With Pleasure
(#6031)But first let's be clear about your comment. That due to a 'low level' of education, celebs have nothing enlightening to say.
Heh. I eagerly anticipate your willingness to apply that same metric to other segements of our society. Silly elitist.
Anyhoo. Taking Hollywood as a whole, the town is probably better educated -- if by 'better educated' you mean 'went to college' -- than most. (I'm including writers, execs, producers, etc.) Taking performers by themselves? The amount of college is probably less -- but I'm not sure by how much. (Tho', again, I would think you'd be among the first to understand that a fancy pants college education and having something enlightening to say are not necessarily the same thing.) And I can think of several instances where a celeb said something on a political subject that was better informed than you -- and they're better looking too!! (Actors, particularly successful ones, tend toward auto-didact and low handicaps, not a little in part because they have far more free time than you. This gives them great opportunities to read and play golf. I'm absolutely serious.)
Anyway, it's a dimbulb bias. (No less so than those about NASCAR fans, or Eliot House jocks.) The adoption joke was only half funny the first time. And yes, the town tends toward liberality, but that's been part and parcel of the arts generally for a very long time. Nothing new there.
As for the Dixie Chicks, their last CD debuted in the number one spot on both the Billboad Top 200 and Country Music charts. (I was surprised by the latter, btw.) I understand that their failure would stand as a kind of ideological ratification for you. But it's probably not going to happen.
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
Shut up and sing trailer...
(#6152)I look forward to seeing it... I am not sure about an award....
Ask courageous questions. Do not be satisfied with superficial answers. Be open to wonder and at the same time subject all claims to knowledge, without exception, to intense skeptical scrutiny. Be aware of human fallibility. Cherish your species and yo
Rove at work again?
(#6533)You know, of course, that the title of this moview is taken from that of a best-selling book by conservative talker Laura Ingraham.
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson
I agree with you on one thing:
(#6532)your post convinces me that a fancy pants college education and having something enlightening to say are not necessarily the same thing. %^>
I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson
Heh
(#6538)We've both done yeoman's work in this regard as of late. Well done!!
“Two clichés make us laugh but a hundred clichés move us, because we sense dimly that the clichés are talking among themselves, celebrating a reunion." - Umberto Eco
re PU or SU
(#6176)As I understand it, at least from catching an interview with them on Hardball, they are 'bitching' about the fact that radio stations were told by corporate headquarters (I forget which 2 they mentioned) that they couldn't play their music. It would seem, based uopn their album sales, that they are still quite popular and plenty of people buy their music. Perhaps you have facts otherwise, or perhaps you are just yapping without any actual facts. I, for one, will admit that I don't like country music, and have no knowledge as to the DC's current popularity other than the fact that their last album was a huge success. Oh, and that I actually heard their 'bitching' live and didn't attribute a 'whine' to them that they didn't actually make.
oh my
(#6186)When I hear mockery of universities and academics, it is much more likely that a conservative is speaking than a liberal.
And more than likely it reflects a member of the faculty being rather foolish or different rules being rolled for conservatives. BTW, the different rule meme runs thoughout your comment.
It is the Republican Party that harbors adherents of several policies, many of which are somehow at least argumentatively related to the politically all-important abortion issue, that in one way or another inhibit or fail to sufficiently promote scientific research.
The all important abortion issue clearly resides with the Dems and their minions. The best example of this is the treatment of SCOTUS justices. Of note, no member of the GOP has inhibited any scientific research. That is, private and government dollars, although not federal dollars, have freely flowed into scientific research where federal dollars have not followed.
I would say that the price controls which have been proposed by the Dems will have a far greater impact on scientific research than anything pursued by this Admin.
It is Republicans who politically align with the creationists and their sophist offshoots, the IDers.
Where is Irving when we really need him with respect to the "sophist" comment.
It is conservatives who deny public patronage to artists because of the astonishing fact that some artists hold and express unconventional views that may offend the mores of majoritarians.
Jesus, Mary and Joseph please point out to me where artists are deemed to be a special class due special entitlements.
It is Republicans who ridicule and boycott performance artists who dare to voice their political opinions.
Who knew that freedom of speech was a one way street!
It is the right, in concert with its conservative sponsors, that consistently fights the global warming science for motivations that are becoming more and more nakedly political.
Please refer to the above comment.
I call those policies and acts anti-intellectual, and they emanate in their overwhelming majority from one side of the political spectrum.
The shorter version of your comments, who knew that liberals are so intolerant.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
You are wrong about research
(#6196)Bush limited stem cell research to existing contaminated cell lines. That's a severe restriction.
As far as art, no one is entitled to arts funding. However, peruse the Supreme Court's decisions regarding content based discrimination.
I blame it all on the Internet
Bush limited stem cell research
(#6197)He did no such thing. In fact he was the first president to provide federal funding of stem cell research.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
Wrong, wrong, wrong
(#6200)he limited research to the cell lines in existence when the legislation was signed. It turns out that many of them were contaminated by mouse DNA and proteins, but new lines cannot be generated in the US by law. Republican law. Bush law.
I blame it all on the Internet
he limited research
(#6204)no he didn't.
Melton lab at Harvard University is pursuing a wide range of research on the subject.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
Read it and weep, Timmy
(#6208)these are the only stem cell lines available for research. By law. Bush's law.
I blame it all on the Internet
I'm not an expert, but
(#6217)that link you gave refers to stem cell lines that are *eligible for federal funding*, not that are available at all.
kenb, he would have eventually gotten there-nt
(#6220)TTT
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
Uhhh...
(#6246)Stem cell research only began during the Bush presidency. And of course he limited research... don't take it from me, take it from the White House.
"I don't want us to descend into a nation of bloggers." - Steve Jobs
actually stem cell research began in the 90s
(#6677)and Bush did not limit research, as I have previously pointed out.
““I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you’re not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we’re Americans, and we have the right to debate and disagree with any administration!”” –H
Both sides can be hostile to results they dislike
(#6770)But is there anything on the Left comparable to rejection of evolution that permeates so much of the Right? We are talking about a mainstream scientific theory, widely accepted and tested by the experts in the field, and that is consistently denigrated or denied by leading authorities of the GOP, including President Bush.
I have seen nothing remotely comparable on the left. This is not to say that many on the left will challenge results they dislike but that is common to both sides. But AFAIK the left does not simply negate the validity of a whole branch of science as the right does.
This place is my vacation.
It's not even just a scientific theory
(#6839)It's a method of illuminating the world. So much is understandable by observing nature with natural selection in mind. Conversely, engaging in such observation over a period of time makes the truth of evolution obvious. I cannot avoid the word "ignorant" for those who reject this truth.