Correcting The Record
In two recent diaries I've seen the contention that Barack Obama had nothing at stake when he made his speech against the Iraq war in October 2002. He was running for the Illinois State Senate, not the U.S. Senate, the diarists have said. He didn't formally announce for the U.S. Senate race until the following year.
Here's a section from a Sun-Times article* about Obama published on July 3, 2002, months before the speech:
He could win it all. State Sen. Barack Obama (D-Chicago), the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review, who teaches constitutional law at the University of Chicago, is hoping to be the 2004 Democratic nominee against Republican Sen. Peter Fitzgerald.Earlier this week, Obama launched a campaign committee to challenge Republican Sen. Peter Fitzgerald in 2004.
Obama was running. Everyone knew he was running. If the war had been successful and popular, he would have been clobbered for his opposition to it, and his prospects for national office would have likely been destroyed.
Can we just let this go now?
_______
* Search the archives at the Sun-Times and you will find an abstract of this article containing the section above.
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References -
I updated my Obama post.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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)You're a candidate for "Parser of the Year", but since you haven't officially announced I'll respect your definition and hold my peace.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )...Potential Parser of the Year.
--"I want America to know that I'm, like, totally ready to lead." -- Paris Hilton
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| parent )Let me ask a simple question, how many Democrats were "clobbered" for their opposition to the "Gulf War"?
Obama was more than happy to support missile strikes against Iran and Pakistan under certain situations during his run for the Senate in 04. In fact, I believe he even supported a US troop surge, if memory serves.
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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)...
--More Wagster!
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| parent )Before you respond, a quick google (or a search engine which doesn't carve out sites) of September (maybe October) 2004 with the key words, Obama, Iran and missiles may prove helpful.
After the search, you can of course point out all of the Dems who paid a price for contesting the "Gulf War".
Finally, given the scenario you laid out, does the word calculating enter the mix.
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )...
--More Wagster!
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| parent )when the Dems were calling for more troops
--“Let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God’s work must truly be our own.”
John F. Kennedy
January 20, 1961
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| parent )We shouldn't run a candidate who can't mount a cogent critique of Bush's war because the candidate voted to authorize the f***ing thing. We already tried that once, remember?
What is Hillary going to bring to a debate with McCain on Iraq? Obama's detractors like to joke about the fact that his foreign-policy argument is based on "one speech". Maybe so, but that's a lot better than Hillary's resume, when it comes to demonstrated good judgment. Every argument in a primary should come from the standpoint that the winner will shortly be arguing with the other party's nominee. So far I haven't seen the Obama camp make that explicit, and they should.
The Hillary campaign likes to argue that she'd be less vulnerable to McCain because she's more hawkish. (In fact, there are reports that she is telling military figures off the record that she's not serious about an Iraq withdrawal.) This is predicated on the assumption that the public wants us to stay in Iraq, but under Democratic rather than Republican management. We had a chance to make that argument, and it didn't work. What makes anyone think it would work this time?
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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)Here's Hillary's plan:
(1) Direct the Joint Chiefs upon taking the oath to begin planning for the withdrawal from Iraq. There is, if you'll look at the following, good reason to think she is more serious about this than Senator Obama, for example, is serious about securing Afghanistan.
From the New York Sun, 5/24/07:
And from The Huffington Post, 7/19/07:
(2) Begin withdrawing American troops within 90 days of taking office.
(3) Withdraw 1-2 brigades a month until the troop level is at some not-yet-determined level between miniscule and greatly reduced.
Here's Obama's plan, by the way:
Here's McCain's plan:
or as he later told David Corn, "a thousand years or a million years".
[Yes, yes, righties, this isn't a fair depiction of McCain's position--but it's what you're going to be hearing this fall, so you'd better get used to it.]
So anyway, stillnotking, to get back to the subject--do you really think Hillary Clinton is not going to be able to draw a distinction with McCain this fall on Iraq? Even though her plan and Obama's plan are virtually identical? Even though Clinton worked vigorously in the Senate in 2007 to prepare for implementation of her plan while Obama was too busy running for President to hold hearings in his Afghanistan oversight committee? Tell me, how is McCain going to hold her feet to the fire over the '02 vote?
He can't, of course, not without totally contradicting himself. Listen, the choice is going to be stark, and it will be the exact same choice whether Clinton is the candidate or Obama:
(1) stay in Iraq; or
(2) get out of Iraq.
It will not be a choice between "get out of Iraq because I have consistently said stay out of Iraq" and "get out of Iraq because i have come to realize we should get out of Iraq."
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| parent )Clinton will stay; she's said she will stay, she said we should go, and she's completely owned by her terror of appearing weak. She's a Beltway Dem, through and through.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )I think that NY Sun article by Eli Lake needs a little elucidation (of course we could all just go read the thing). The issue at hand on which Gen. Keane is cited so frequently seems to be whether or not a President Hillary Clinton would be in favor of, or likely to initiate, an immediate withdrawal of US forces from Iraq. Which, AFAICR, has not been a major option floated in the campaign, either from Sen. Obama or anyone else (except, of course, Ron Paul).
There's a big difference (pace Bird Dog) between advocating for an "immediate withdrawal" and a commitment to reduce US forces in-theater - on whatever schedule. And an even bigger one between those options and the Bush (? /McCain ?) strategy which appears, simply, to be an indefinite commitment of troops at or near their present level.
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| parent )If you're right and he was standing on principle on a major issue of our time, surely he took that position publicly more than once. Particularly if, as you claim, he was more or less in a "permanent campaign" mode two years before the election.
But you're really not proving your case; talking about running and actually being deeply into a campaign (where your opponent seizes on your every word within a day and tries to use it against you) are two completely different environments.
But here's a test I don't know the answer to: did any of Obama's multiple opponents in the '04 election make a big issue of his position against the war in their campaign strategy and particularly, in ads or speeches? Given the type of campaign Ryan seems to have run, I expect that would have been used often as ammo if it was of the caliber you say.
(BTW, do you think that starting an entire diary on a subject I've characterized as relatively trivial in a context of a campaign for president shows anything resembling compulsiveness among Obama supporters? Just asking.)
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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)a reference to Obama's claim to have given the speech during a campaign for US Senate, rather than a reference to his opposition to the war?
I guess tomsyl can clarify but I certainly read it the first way, whereas apparently several other people read it the second...
--Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
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| parent )-o-0-o-
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )I'm not sure you fully appreciate the gape-mouthed horror and rage with which many of us watched the march to war in 2002/2003, and the gratitude and trust we feel toward political figures who were willing to stand up to a near-universal mania.
Bottom line? I just don't think it's as fresh in your mind as it is in ours. I was ashamed to be an American in March 2003. Maybe a good parallel for you would have been watching the Iranian hostage crisis unfold, or the helicopter airlift from South Vietnam? I dunno. This is a very big deal to lefties, tomsyl.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )in addition to the usual "unpatriotic" slurs, we had talk show hosts out here telling conservatives to go out and beat up anti-war protesters. I'm having a hard time believing that you can't remember the political atmosphere five years ago. Very few people were willing to stand up and say that the war was a mistake.
--I blame it all on the Internet
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| parent )But tell that to Hillary Clinton. Every time she talks about her foreign policy expertise she gets clobbered on the head with it: her judgement was wrong, Obama says, and his was right on the major issue of the day. In fact, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say this was probably the deciding factor this primary season.
I think you're setting up an artificial standard of proof for me and I reject it. I'm saying two things:
1) Barack was openly running for Senate in '02. (proven)
--2) If the war had been popular and successful his opposition (whether he made 1 speech or 100) would have been used against him in '04, probably by his Democratic opponents, and certainly by his Republican opponents. (obvious)
More Wagster!
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| parent )Yes, I'd expect someone who supported the war to now suggest that this is a trivial issue. But for those of us who opposed it, and did so from the start? It's entirely germane to issues of experience and judgement. And there are several aspects to Hlilary's vote that are both suspect and worth examining -- for example, that it was less the result of careful consideration than triangulation and the desire to appear tough on foreign policy concerns with a future run for the White House in mind.
And yes, that's a more important argument in the Dem. primary than the GOP. But the war will be a big issue in November. Like it or not.
But thanks in advance for letting us know which subjects are deemed substantive enough for diaries.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Reread, reread, reread. Take off your Barack sunglasses and look at what I've said ferchrissake, instead of mimicking porcupines when it comes to your Golden Candidate (tm).
I said that the exaggeration of the exact status of Obama's Senate race was trivial, even though there's some spin involved. Read that sentence carefully, please. It says (and I've said) nothing whatsoever trivializing his position on the war, and certainly nothing questioning the sincerity of that position. Every question I've asked, and comment I've made, has been in the nature of inside-game campaign issues. Call me a politics junkie for being fascinated by stuff like this, but then call yourselves the same thing.
Sheesh. Take a step back, guys. I've said I admire the guy, that he's run a clean race, that he's the target of some sleazy tactics from Clinton's campaign, that he should be the Dem candidate, and even that it's possible he'll get my vote. You're attacking the wrong person, and the fact that a half-dozen of you jumped on this like white on rice shows a level of apparent fanaticism that's a little scary.
Harley, your sarcastic snipe about me telling who to write what in their diaries is just silly. Again, if you look at the tenor of my comments, all I was saying is that the statements by me and others about campaign site exaggerations concerned a relatively trivial issue, that that had already been acknowledged by the people discussing it, and that there was no need for a diary on the subject. Again, sheesh.
Repeat after me, guys: Obama will win the primary. He deserves to. He's run a good, clean race. Ganging up on someone (a conservative, fer cryin' out loud) at a perceived slight against the guy is over the top. Confidence, not overreaction, wins the game every time.
OK fellas, that's it for me in this diary. Take whatever potshots you want, accuse me of trivializing the Bible, being a creationist, extinctifying the dinosaurs, carbon loading, suppressing a cure for baldness, being a shill for the helium lobby on AGW, whatever. Go on, get your yah-yahs out.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )Since I suppose this should be considered a continuation of our previous discussion, but it's not a fair shot at the rest of your respondents. You reread your comment. It's not clear, from your comment in this thread alone, what exactly you considered trivial. If you think it is clear... well, we'll just have to differ.
However, this little bit of spin has found its way into two diaries, so I'm thinking others might not have considered it too trivial to mention. It's a way to stack the deck against Obama on an issue -- that as I've said before -- is definitely not trivial.
--More Wagster!
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| parent )...
--More Wagster!
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| parent )-o-0-o-
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )I can't slide anything in under the posting rules, can I?
--More Wagster!
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| parent )fall for it, my brothers! It is tomsyl who seeks to divide us! He's the evil one! Let us unite and burn down the domicile of the defiler so this never happens again!
--I had discovered a great secret. That everyone loves themselves more than they love anybody else. And if I wanted them to love me, I better be like THEM!... Ken Nordine
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| parent )Hank, is there a module in Drupal that provides for having comments bronzed so I can hang this one on my office wall next to my Podunk U. diploma?
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )How soon they forget. Geeze. Lose one basketball game...
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )I don't normally trot this out here to trump people, but I have an M.A. in Applied Lounge Science with a concentration in Comparative Imbibliography.
Dissertation: "Absinthe and Sartre"
Publications:
Quantum Thought Experiments: How Much Was Heisenberg's Bar Bill? in Macrobiotic Quantum Studies 12/13 (1988)
Global Warming: The General Circulation Model Analyzed As A Drunkard's Walk, Farmer's Almanac Fold-Out Supplement(1991)
Historic Stills of Arizona, Mobil Travel Guide (out of print)
Vodka Versus The Blini As A Unit Of Exchange In Byeloruss in Лучшие книги Интернета, vol. IV4 (Aug. 1999)
So stand back.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )...of the formatting. Way to do what it took to make the joke work. Joyous.
--It's impossible to debate if people simply hold beliefs that have no grounding in reality.
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| parent )-o-0-o-
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )I even gave you the link you needed. Want it again? Ok, here.
And Obamafans accuse me of being hostile to his campaign . . .
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )ashes! Dibs on the beer trebuchet!
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )No sooner does brendanm complement me for being evilly useless than you spit in the punchbowl with this claim that I've done something useful, if not (god forbid) constructive.
Give with one hand, take back with the other. Typical lib. Do that again and I'll gin up a PR violation claim, coupled with emotional distress damages The forvm's Lawyer To The Stars, MS Eiland Esqire, Umpire, OBE etc. is my lawyer, even though he doesn't know it yet.
WRT medieval siege engines, though, I should warn you that I in fact have a working trebuchet we built for my son's history class. It throws a tennis ball about 100 yards. I'll calculate the tennis ball/beer can weight ratio and get back to you if you promise not to call that information "constructive" or some other epithet.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )could never conceivably be confused with the word 'useful.' Maybe 'usefulesque' would have been a better choice. You know, describing the type of gadget or invention that has no real function other than conveying an impression of thoughtfulness on Father's Day, somewhat in the vein of Kant's "purposiveness without purpose." The pith helmet with motorized fan. Soloflex. 98% of the Sharper Image catalog.
Obviously any device that makes it easier, albeit a good deal more dangerous to drink too much beer doesn't really fall into that category, but we can keep that bit of info to ourselves.
[Obligatory Gladiator outtake....
MAXIMUS:
When I give the signal, unleash Pabst!]
Oh well. Mom always said I was a lawsuit waiting to happen. Course she meant it as a compliment.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Makes drinking Pabst feel like farting through silk underwear. And that's A Good Thing, as Martha S. would say.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )And back in the day, Rainier was justly praised less for their beer than their commercials -- stoner classics, in their way. Here's one that I have a personal interest in.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Stoner classics indeed. But all props to you from rising to the pinnacle of your profession from such a modest start.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )I'm wondering what the High Life Man would think about that. Beer, now part of the culture wars?
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )So you can hunt 'em.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Reminds me of my all-time favorite Robert Goulet ad. What's beer without nuts?
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )...quite a few people forget their first beer. And their second. And their third. And...
What they don't forget is waking up somewhere they're not supposed to be, wearing something they shouldn't or not wearing something they should.
--“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.”
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| parent )after what the Aussies call a technicolor yawn.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )Ahh, memories of my youth.
--GW Bush, leading contender for worst President ever.
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| parent )To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )-o-0-o-
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )nt
--It's not only redundant, it's also repetitive
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| parent )nt
--They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist...
-- General John B. Sedgwick, 1864
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| parent )nt
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Hmmm.
"Vomiting Natty Lite and blood into my soon-to-be ex-girlfriend's make-up case, which, in a drunken and rage-filled stupor, I've mistaken for a trash receptacle."
Ahhh, yore.
--Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio.
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| parent ).
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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| parent )To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )chances are there's another, colder one still in the fridge.
--Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. -JH
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| parent )Any time a politician makes a courageous and principled stand, his detractors will say that he was calculating and/or not risking much. In the context of Obama's life and career, it is plain -- to me at least -- that neither can possibly be the case.
I try to maintain a similarly open mind about candidates I don't support. McCain, for instance, showed real guts bucking his party on immigration. Huckabee was willing to raise taxes when he felt he had to. I'm trying to think of a similar example for Clinton, but I can't.
--The other day I heard that ignorance and apathy are sweeping the country. I didn't know that, but I don't really care.
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)I'm spending the day calling Texans. The Obama operation is pretty amazing, and the ease with which I'm able to do this -- including links that allow me to help voters to the right precinct and caucus -- is pretty amazing. If nothing else, this is one very well run campaign. Here's hoping that pays off.
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )Link.
--In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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| parent )I gave money, but I can't bring myself to call strangers. (It has to do with a college phone job the memories of which still haunt me.)
--More Wagster!
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| parent )So it's a challenge. But I just stick to script:
"Hi! My name is Trickster. I'm calling to tell you all about Barrack Obama...."
--To think is not enough; you must think of something -- Jules Renard
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| parent )