Last Debate Thread

stinerman's picture

I won't be watching it because they're both very wrong on foreign policy, and I don't have the heart to yell at Obama like I do Romney (although I yelled at Obama plenty in the last debate).

 

Brutus, call my wife if they come to blows.  She'll find me somewhere in the house.  I'd love to see it happen.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

I'll be surveyed by CNN

(#293833)

Got a call asking if I'd participate and I said yeah. I'm going to refer to 'The Muslim' and 'The Cultist' through the whole thing and see where it goes.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

I don't answer the phone

(#293836)
stinerman's picture

Unless I recognize the number.  They'd have no clue what to do with me, though.  Jill who?

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

Tell them that taste in bourbon is your single highest

(#293844)

criterion for office.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Aw jeez

(#293855)
HankP's picture

I can see it now

 

WOLF BLITZER: We have on the phone with us one of the undecided voters we've been tracking during the election, Darth Cuddly a mumble mumble in mumble, North mumble. Darth, what did you think of the debate?

 

DC: [sounds of a dozen or so guys watching a football game in the background] Hi Wolf. Yeah, I was kind of disappointed with both candidates, neither one has advocated or supported my "Free Bourbon for Our Brave Warriors" charity. [loud cheer in background] [aside] honey, could you get the guys some more snacks?

 

WB: That's interesting Darth, I haven't heard of that charity. Which candidate did you think portrayed a more manly image, and which would be a better commander in chief?

 

DC: Wolf, neither of them could find their own ass with a map and a flashlight. [another background cheer] I wasn't impressed with either one - honey, where are those snacks? - and I don't see either one as particularly capable.

 

WB: So are you still undecided? Is there anything either candidate could say to get your vote?

 

DC: [sound of baby cryinghoney, can you see what's the matter with the kid ... Sorry Wolf, yeah, I'm still undecided and unless one of these jokers is willing to address the problems with military logistics I'll have a hard time - honey, the kid's still crying and those snacks? - So yeah, I just don't see them as credible. [more cheers in background]

 

WB: Are there any other postions that the candidates hold that would help you make your decision? Economics? Women's issues?

 

DC:  honey, those snacks. And more beer  - Uh, well, Wolf, fortunately my wife doesn't have to work, so those things aren't really that important to us [sounds of laughter in backgroundhoney, the kid, the snacks, the beer, OK? and Dan just threw up, can you get that - uh, so yeah my wife is fortunate enough to not have to worry about any of the women's stuff, she has it easy [sound of loud clang, like a frying pan hitting someone's head] uh, Wolf, I'm going to have to cut this short, thanks [clunk]

 

WB: OK, that was undecided voter Darth Cuddly, hopefully something tonight will have helped him in making his decision.

 

I blame it all on the Internet

Brilliant

(#293874)

 - 

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

tomsyl's back!

(#293875)
HankP's picture

Aloha man. How the hell have you been?

I blame it all on the Internet

I Immediately Wanted Tom's Opinion on The Movie, The Descendants

(#293878)

 

 

...an actually important question!

 

Nice to see you, Sir, I hope, really hope, that matters are working out well for you.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

Good Point

(#293880)

I liked the movie myself, for whatever that's worth.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

It is very similar to a case I have now

(#293924)

and really accurate, so much so that there was some mumbling here about appropiration of likeness etc.

 

Thanks for the kind sentiments, Trav.  I am just peachy.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Sorry but this is not tomsyl

(#293923)

I am his doppelganger, Atom Sylva.  He unfortunately was imprisoned for years in a Bonded Bourbon warehouse after uncovering an internet gang of three card monte cheats.  He is recovering, but the experience left him truly "white" and with a nose that quivers like an inbred miniature poodle's at the smell of spirits.  Fortunately I control his brain, such of it as is left. 

 

 

I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems scary and weird. It'll happen to you.—Abraham Simpson

Too bad

(#293938)
HankP's picture

tomsyl was a nice guy.

 

If he was still around, I'd recommend this to mix with his scotch.

I blame it all on the Internet

No, no, no, no, That's not how Mrs Cuddly rolls

(#293902)

You really don't understand.  My wife loves to cook because she knows an animal had to die in the process. In that environment I had to develop some survival skills.  I noticed Mrs Cuddly is always cheery with company, but when the last guest leaves I find out just what sort of a-hole my mother raised.  So I adapted.  I make sure I sneak out of my own house before the last guest leaves.  Oh, and lemme ask for a beer.  I'll damn sure get it, bottle and all aimed at my head.

Anyway, I'd tell Wolf that I want truth in advertising.  We can start with renaming the BATFE to the 'Redneck Control Bureau'.  Let's see, Alcohol, check, Tobacco, check, Firearms, check, Fireworks, check.  All they really need to do is carve off a piece of DOT to regulate truck nuts and lift kits to completely close the loop.  Crap, not just truth in advertising but efficiency too.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

I'll tell you what

(#293939)
HankP's picture

you let her read it, then have her tell us how accurate it is.

 

And your paranoia is showing. Alcohol is in no way exclusively associated with rednecks.

 

I blame it all on the Internet

Alcohol isn't exclusively associated with Rednecks

(#294015)

neither are firearms, tobacco or explosives.  Howevah guvnah, roll them all together and it screams redneck. 

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

It wasn't the first debate

(#293838)

that produced Romneys surge. Kevin Drum mentioned this so I went and looked over the polling averages at TPM (including state level) and he's absolutely correct. Romney's surge started about 10 days before the debate.

 

What caused it? My guess is that conservatives really didn't and still don't like Romney all that much hence his poor performance earlier but are coming home as the election gets closer.

I Suspect It Was Both

(#293839)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Similar considerations for the conservatives regarding Bush the Elder (who had that "voodoo economics" line to live down) had a lot to do with Dukakis' monster lead in August 1988 collapsing like Orson Welles in the Death Valley Marathon. That and Bernard Shaw's question regarding the death penalty producing the cringe inducing answer from Dukakis. And the tank picture didn't help. And. . .

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

"It's not a game of Battleship."

(#293843)

My god did he just hand Romney his behind on a plate on the silly 1917 Navy talking point.

M Aurelius was probably right.

I hear ya, Stiney

(#293845)
John's picture

I actually forgot the debate was even on. And I just noticed at RCP that Romney seems to be in a hairline lead in national polling. Go figure. I haven't been paying attention so my apologies.

 

But as for the totality of your comment: I agree with you about the foreign policy thing but think you need to come out of your bias and stop cutting Obama any slack. It's nothing personal. It's just politics. And he is a politician. 

Obama didn't do nearly enough to puncture the "Apology Tour"

(#293846)

garbage. He isn't doing enough to deflect the "perception of weakness" idiocy either. He's got a strong foreign policy record, and it deserves a full-throated defense. Ask the Iranian currency if the US seems weak. Ask Moammar Kaddafi if the US seems weak. Ask the largest sanctions regime ever mounted against Iran if the US seems weak.

 

I think Romney's criticism on Iran connected; Obama didn't have a sharp, definitive answer. The apology tour stuff, full of crapola as it is, was at least more coherent than Obama's response. Romney isn't really holding his own, but he's kicked out a few strong points here and there.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Is the "debate" over yet?

(#293847)
John's picture

...

Fear not.

(#293850)
aireachail's picture

Someone will let you know when it's safe.

It's halftime

(#293853)
John's picture

So, I just checked in. 10 more minutes. Romney is babbling about China and trade. Now Obama takes a jab at Romney about investing in companies that ship jobs overseas.

 

Lowest common denominator knows no bottom.

Take that Candy Crowley....Obama's bin Laden. Ha!

(#293848)

.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

I think you re partly righ, Jordan

(#293851)
Jay C's picture

But Mitt s pretty much been forced to agree with the President s policies a lot more often than, just IMO, than he really should.

Split screen

(#293849)
aireachail's picture

hasn't been Romney's friend so far.

That damp upper lip. I hope his mom's not watching.

(#293854)

The urge to run up and dab it with a hankie must be nigh overwhelming.

M Aurelius was probably right.

She might as well be there. Holy crap, cut military spending

(#293863)

and just arm Romney's family.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

In the little snippet I have watched

(#293856)
John's picture

Obama is losing big time on style and emotion. 

I guess that was the part

(#293857)
aireachail's picture

where I turned to watch the Giants.

Maybe you should watch some more

(#293858)
Jay C's picture

President Obama is - has al night -Come across straightforward and direct (even if all too much of his address has consisted of campaign boilerplate. MittRomney has been the one looking awkward and uncMfortable. Oh, and no less prone to babbling cliches, either.

 

Obviously YOur Mileage Varies

Watch more?

(#293865)
John's picture

No thanks. 7 minutes was enough. It was just an impression based on superficial criteria. That's the way most people see it anyway. 

 

Don't worry. I'm still votiing 3rd party. I won't cancel your vote out. ;-)

Bad night for Mitt

(#293861)

but I don't think it will make much difference in the grand scheme of things.

I wouldn't know

(#293866)
John's picture

I caught the tail end of China-babble du jour and automotive industry talk. Then I became afraid I might miss something important and changed channel back to the games.

The disdain is charming, and yet

(#293870)

one of these two men is going to be President, and will set trade & economic policy based on these opinions they're babbling about.

M Aurelius was probably right.

" based on these opinions they're babbling about:

(#293873)
brutusettu's picture

What makes you think either are advocating more than a smidgen of actual positions?

 

 

We pretty much know Romney has already sketched out new positions already, but since I'm missing the dueling live infomercials, I need more input on why Obama isn't claiming he'll do something he won't even attempt to do.

 

 

 

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

Status quo will continue

(#293962)
John's picture

I see no changes coming from either one on China. And that's fine. Because any change that could pass probably wouldn't be good for anyone anyway. I am thinking of nothing in particular. It's just a sense of how things go. Politicians suck. 

 

Whatever they were babbling about is just posturing for votes. I think the status quo is basically nothing...and while far from perfect, it's better than something. 

I imagine China relations will change,

(#293965)

though not in 2 or 4 years, and not necessarily according to some plan drawn up in the White House. But the important thing is that China trade policy has a rather large & growing effect on domestic economics. Obama's got the right idea: invest in education and energy in order to compete down the road. Romney has no ideas, but at the moment he's basically copying Obama's ideas, with some additional and puerile chest beating.

 

Feel free to Eeyore away the differences. I'm going to vote based on small differences, knowing that in actuality I'm voting for a wide swath of policies to the left of where Obama stands in this particular election.

M Aurelius was probably right.

It is amusing

(#293968)
HankP's picture

since that status quo now is pretty radically different than the status quo 4 years ago. Yet some people see no difference. What can you do?

I blame it all on the Internet

What's so different, Hank?

(#293970)
John's picture

enlighten me. Seriously...

Seriously?

(#293973)
HankP's picture

The US is no longer in financial crisis

 

Financial markets have recovered

 

(Near) universal health care

 

Torture is no longer official US policy

 

Drawing down troops in Iraq, about to start drawing down in Afghanistan

 

Don't Ask Don't Tell is no longer policy

 

Osama bin-Laden is dead

 

The US auto industry is still here

 

Banks no longer skimming student loan profits

 

... but this is silly, you must know about most if not all of these.

 

I blame it all on the Internet

we were talking about china

(#293994)
John's picture

...

No, no Jordan.

(#293969)
John's picture

"competing with China" isn't how I see things and I don't think that's the right way to view the matter. By and large, businesses use China to improve profits while delivering better value to consumers...anecdotes aside. I don't see that as competition but rather as symbiosis. Americans are innovators. We still produce plenty of things that are not done in China for the simple reason that it's not worth it. And Americans will continue to do this.

 

Besides, China is heading toward an bubble implosion of their government's own making. Now, if that causes problems or progress or both, we will see where that leads in terms of US/China relations. But my point is that educational investments (whatever that means as opposed to what's been done since further back than I can possibly remember) are not for competing against China and serve little purpose in that regard. And energy innovations will happen at whatever rate this warped market calls for. And since I am not running for office, I can say all this because it's true. 

 

But yes, BTW, I agree that Chinese/US relations do not depend on the WH. ;-)

I didn't intend to imply "competing with China"

(#293974)

but rather remaining competitive in general. It isn't just China, but many countries around the world are investing heavily in education, especially in math, sciences & engineering.

 

And you can talk of 'symbiosis' all you want, but most people would call what China's doing a kind of cold trade war...manipulating currency, flooding markets, stealing IP, cutting corners at every turn, exploiting their workers, polluting the environment. They are deliberately trying to choke competitors out of the market, and they have deep enough pockets to do it. But here's the thing, even if China decided to play nice and knock off the worst of the hardball tactics, our trade 'symbiosis' would still be deeply unbalanced in their favor, and it would still be causing widespread unemployment here in the states. Education is an important investment in order to take advantage, retraining our workforce for new industries, in order to mitigate the damage to US employees while reaping the rewards of a large & powerful trading partner. 

 

So you can take steps to do help US workers & businesses adapt to global economic change, or you can...

M Aurelius was probably right.

Well, Jordan,

(#293997)
John's picture

as I said above: China's day of reckoning and pain is coming. It won't be for dirty policies toward the environment or its people but rather for the simple reactive market forces to over capacity and overzealous domestic investment for a party that isn't gonna last as long as they think. But I suppose that will be poetic justice on the other fronts nonetheless. 

 

Whether that spells opportunity for American manufacturing to take back low end production remains to be seen....but I doubt it. 

Why are you so different?

(#293980)

We still produce plenty of things that are not done in China for the simple reason that it's not worth it. And Americans will continue to do this.

 

This strikes me as magical thinking. I see no reason an end game similar to the one that kicked off the opium wars won't be the one that comes to pass.

HA

(#293995)
John's picture

It's not magical at all. I'm not living in the past lamenting the loss of low value products produced here. There are plenty of cutting-edge companies driving into tomorrow. 

China can do high end just as well.

(#294075)

I'm sure the high end network equipment companies like Cisco in the US weren't expecting the Chinese to start eating their lunch quite to quickly, but Hauwei were they wrong. And any high end you do come up with they can snaffle up and make sure that any mass employment resulting will be based in China. 

Don't worry, Junkey

(#294114)
John's picture

there's plenty going in the States in terms of great companies and job opportunities. I'm not being ra-ra USA when I say this. It's just a simple observation of what's happening on the frontier of business. Great companies based here are changing how how we use technology, how we compute, how we build and so on. Some very well be the next copy-cat of some Chinese company....like Baidu is to Google. But Google is already so much more than Baidu is trying to be. The examples are plentiful. From pharma and biotech and surgical robotics to 3D printing, cloud computing and virtualization to name but a few prominent areas, there are plenty of examples of cutting edge companies working on tomorrow while the Chinese swipe up menial labor. Of course, that's just a generalization but it fits quite well. 

 

BTW, Cisco, like other early tech companies like HP and Dell, is fighting to remain relevant over the long run in terms of growth and furture market share in a changing world. They are hardly the kind of company I am thinking of. 

 

 

I've Made Good Money Buying and Selling Cisco...

(#294115)

...over the years. A half dozen times.

 

Time to leave?

 

Hummmmm?

 

Traveller

"symbiosis"

(#293985)

since the depressed wages to the US's labor market are greater than the reduced costs to its consumers, the symbiotic relationship of which you're speaking must be one of parasite and host. 

 

The parasites are the multinationals who are sucking wealth out of the American non-upper classes, who are their host.

 

For example, WAL-MART executives are parasites, and American consumers and laborers are their hosts. The smarter workers are right now trying to beat back this parasitism in the way hosts often do, via a common labor market activity known as striking. 

 

I'm sure you support these efforts as entirely natural market forces mimicking entirely natural processes.

Sure

(#293987)
HankP's picture

you'd also have to consider the eventual uprising that slaughters the political and economic elites as a purely natural process as well.

I blame it all on the Internet

Kind of like an allergic reaction, really.

(#293989)

Who are we to interrupt mother nature at work?

M Aurelius was probably right.

Funny how a different point of view

(#293996)
John's picture

about the US vis a vis China and what it means for our economy and the implications of different policies and pathways at home turns into condescending remarks about "natural market forces".

 

Wow. Differing opinions get such differing reactions. I respond to points of view and outlooks that differ with my own with explanations. My differing opinions are derided with sneers, bad inference and condescension. 

 

 

I didn't see that at all.

(#293872)

I thought they were equally bland and had comparable looks.

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

This is a debate?

(#293859)

Yeah, it's because Romney's changing his positions,  but someone who'd never heard either of them before wouldn't see any substantial disagreements here.

 

 

 

"wouldn't see any substantial disagreements here"

(#293868)
brutusettu's picture

That's today's secret words for a RATM video.

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

Great video but

(#293879)

the speakers need to be turned off.  That music's awful.

Obama doesn't need to pretend to make up policies

(#293860)
John's picture

that bring manufacturing jobs back here. Companies like 3D systems, Proto Labs and IPG Photonics are but some of the companies changing the way manufacturing is done.

 

Not mentioned at all tonight: a certain Benghazi consulate.

(#293864)

.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Is that omission really surprising?

(#293867)
Jay C's picture

The President kicked the BS out of Romney's argument in the last debate, and since that was all they have it s no wonder the subject would get buried

 

Analysis: I think Obama won, and clearly won on foreign policy,

(#293869)

the nominal topic of the debate tonight. That said, I think Obama still fell short of what he was trying to do tonight, which was essentially to destroy Romney's credibility on foreign policy. I'd say that while, for thinking people at least, Romney has zero credibility on foreign policy, I don't think Obama's aggressive approach paid off entirely. Much, much better than the first debate, but Obama really just isn't a top flight debater, and probably never will be.

 

Even though nearly everything that comes out of Romney's mouth is a lie, he sounds convincing, and I know way too many people who don't have the first clue how to fact check things national politicians say to believe that he won't find a large number of suckers to buy his twaddle.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Yup

(#293876)
HankP's picture

I'd really like to hear a Republican voter explain why they'd vote for Romney's foreign policy when it's basically "I'd do everything Obama did" with some noises about being "stronger".

I blame it all on the Internet

Depends on how you score these things.

(#293877)

Flag: Romney wins, it was twice the size of the one Obama had.

Hair: Does it need to be explained?  Romney is the clear winner.

Family: Michelle vs most of South Philly.  Romney wins here.

Debate: Ok, it really does depend on what you look for.  I think Obama won but he did it looking pissy.  That plays well with his base but they were in the bag already.  Romney, he was on an upswing going into the debate but I think that was from folks who were really going to vote for him anyway.  His performance was lack luster.  Neither did anything to pull fence sitters.  So I think Obama won the debate but he didn't do anything here to win the election.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

Agreed on looking pissy.

(#293883)

He doesn't have very good debateside manner, and I don't think this will help his numbers. The people who say it's all ground game from here on out are basically right. I think we know the evangelicals, Newt fans, and other conservative hardliners are going to turn out for Romney...the question is how many. Republicans are also doing their darnedest, spending millions in a dozen states to make sure as few Democratic voters find their way to the polls or, once there, actually have their votes recorded. Despicable, evil, antidemocratic, freedom my ass, but that's Republicans for you. 

 

Don't vote stupid, vote, stupid!

M Aurelius was probably right.

It's over

(#293871)

I don't know why I put myself through this thing again. God, they are so lackluster.

 

It was fairly even overall. Obama's best was probably the battleship thing. Romney didn't really score that I could see. But Romney did look like he knew the various topics, and that is a plus for him since he's been panned as lacking experience.

 

Both kept wanting to drift towards the economy and jobs. Clearly this is what they were instructed to do, and the heck with the Foreign Policy theme.

 

Both had the exact same fake smile when not speaking.

 

I see no chance of this debate changing polls substantially either way.

 

It's up to the ground game now.

 

I said months ago this was going to be a dreadful "campaign of attrition":

So here we have a situation. Romney and Obama both ran number crunching campaigns. Romey is not going to fire up the base. Obama did fire up the base in 2008, but won't this year. I don't know, but I am going to guess this will be one of the most dreadful races in a while, like World War I artillery pounding away day after day for little advantage.

 

...

 

I don't see either Obama or Romney straying far, if at all, from crafted, synthetic message lines

Is it too early to pat myself on the back? You decide.

 

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

I didnt watch, so can't comment

(#293894)

But I do have an antidote:

 

 

Iran: Infomerical Territory for Both Obama and Romney...

(#293884)

...I am very unhappy with these stock, pre planned responses. Barf...

 

A nuclear Iran is unacceptable...wtf does this mean? Iran will go Nuclear the same way Pakistan did...an underground test, but Iran will also announce that they have several more on the side.

 

Now what do you do?

 

An attack on Israel is an attack on the United States? Neither answered this one either...if Egypt attacks Israel, do we necessarily go to war with Egypt?

 

Lebanon attacks Israel with some frequency, is this the same as an attack on the Virginia shore? Why?

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

 

 

Amen

(#293889)

WTF does "unacceptable" mean? It's one of those badly used words. If Iran tests a nuke, what do we do, nuke the country?

 

On the other hand, and Lord knows I am no fan of getting Americans into trouble on behalf of Likud, I would have clearly stated that an attack on Israel, or any major ally, such as the UK, is in fact like an attack on the United States. I was surprised that neither was quite willing to say that (both came close, but that's not the same). Why? Do you have any insight Trav?

I am not a pessimist. I am an incompetent optimist.

What's to understand?

(#293891)
HankP's picture

Sound definitive while leaving wiggle room.  It's the same approach used by every politician ever.

I blame it all on the Internet

A Country Cannot Give Guarantees...

(#293893)

...it isn't so much legal obligations, though there may be some, but rather wouldn't this be a surrender of sovereignty?

 

The decision must always rest within the political structures.....again, if Egypt or Lebanon attacks Israel, is it really the same as Egyptian Paratroopers landing in New Hamshire? Is the same response required?

 

As I think about it, there probably are legal consequences. If Russia attacks Northern Turkey, we have obligations under NATO that would still be different, and maybe can be finessed differently if Alaska is attacked.

 

There are options with Turkey, there is none with Alaska.

 

It is full on war.

 

Best Wishes, Traveller

 

Edit: Have we given this kind of Guarantee to Japan and the ROK? An attack on Japan is an attack on the US? I know we guarantee their security, but I still think this different than an attack on Japan is an attack on the US...this may seem semantics...but it would be important. I confess I don't know the nature of the Guarantees but I will try to look it up tomorrow.

That's what weasel words are for

(#293895)
HankP's picture

we can "stand with Israel" because "stand with" has no definition in affairs of state and each listener can interpret it as they want. When it comes to NATO allies we quote the text of the treaty, but no indication of how we'll interpret it in specific circumstances. You see this all the time in diplomatic communications, the words get gentler or harsher but the specifics of threats are left unstated - at least when people who know what they're doing are issuing the statements.

I blame it all on the Internet

It's Not Obvious?

(#293892)

The Oil Producers in the ME will tolerate an awful lot of US support for Israel. An Israel capable of defending itself, especially against the Palestinians so that that wound might continue to fester, but not strong enough to topple its neighbors is acceptable, even in their interests as an anger and frustration sponge for domestic audiences.

Elevating Israel to the status of even Japan or the ROK makes Israel too strong, and removes the veneer of distance that allows the Oil Producers to continue to do business the USA. And elevating Israel to the status of the UK ... a NATO ally? Intolerable.

Negative

(#293900)
stinerman's picture

The UK is in NATO, so it makes sense that we would defend them if that's what it came to.  Israel is not, and there isn't much reason that I can see to defend them.  The only reason I can see is that they are a democratic republic.  If that's the standard, then we've got a lot of countries to help defend.

 

Now if Israel wants to join NATO or perhaps come to some sort of arrangement where we would officially help defend them (moreso than we already do) for some amount of money, good for them.  I don't buy the "they're a democracy in the Middle East and plus the Holocaust, you heartless person of questionable lineage" theory of why we ought to defend Israel.

The Constitution does not vest in Congress the authority to protect society from every bad act that might befall it. -- Clarence Thomas

It would almost immediately put the US at war with Palestine.

(#293901)

Trav and nyoos are getting at the reasons why we stop short of joining a NATO-style mutual defense pact with Israel. Here are some other reasons, though I'm hoping somebody with a much better grasp of this stuff will cover the issue in the next few days:

 

  • NATO is a mutual defense pact. Schieffer's annoying question would commit the US to a unilateral defense pact, with no obligation on Israel to reciprocate with aid to us. Can anyone see why a President (or Presidential candidate) might not want to saddle the US with such a burden on national TV, without negotiating with our ally and without Constitutionally-required Senate review? No candidate for office is going to make damn fool treaty commitments on national television.
  • Israel currently has the status of a Major Non-Nato Ally (MNNA), and adding a Japan-style unilateral defense pact to that treaty obligation would be a serious upgrade in US commitments...in exchange for nothing.
  • A unilateral defense pact could put the US at war with Palestine, Egypt, Lebanon or Syria at a moment's notice. I believe we can all see the dangers in such an approach...intervention in Syria or Lebanon is one thing, war with Egypt (triggered by some border skirmish) would be disastrous, and declaring war on Palestine would detonate the Middle East.
  • Offering a unilateral defense pact with Israel, but not Palestine, would bar the US from acting as a broker in the Mideast peace process. It would be rightly seen as a threat to Palestine.
  • In general, entering a binding military pact with a country in one of the most violent & unstable parts of the world is more or less a guarantee of war within a few years. 
  • Israel is both unwilling and unable to offer the US mutual aid, for a variety of reasons. Their capability is limited, the presence of Israeli troops in many parts of the world would cause a furor, and Israel doesn't seem willing to lend that type of aid in the first place. Israel is one of the few member nations that doesn't, as far as I know, contribute to UN peacekeeping duties. Not, apparently, for lack of asking.
  • And of course no President or Presidential candidate can say any of these things on TV...diplomacy requires finesse, people.

 

All of which is to say that Schieffer's question was as thick-headed as it was annoying. I was shaking my head at this and a few of the other questions. Presidents can't and shouldn't create new treaty obligations during televised debates. Obama's answer was smart; he gave his personal guarantee of Israel's security, but stopped short of a full-blown renegotiation of US commitments. I don't recall Romney's answer to the question, but I imagine it was the same as Obama's only with a great deal more chest beating, which counts as foreign policy brilliance in today's Republican circles.

M Aurelius was probably right.

Caption contest - what was said? Obama talks to Tagg Romney

(#293886)

Step back. I'm going to wiggle my ears.

(#294128)

.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome. 

"Syria is Iran's only ally in the Arab world"

(#293906)

"It's their route to the sea"

Geography fail.

 

 

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Yeah, I saw that.

(#293908)

Bizarre comment. Maybe he meant route to the Med. All that's missing is some way to get through Iraq.

Romney says he has literally spent a seriously long

(#293927)
brutusettu's picture

time filling binders full of hypothesis of how to build warp holes for ships that are as imposing as the CSS Virginia that helped the US win the First Sino-Japanese War, a war that literally didn't start until Old Glory was sailing into battle according to his running mate.

 

"Any war that the US participated in, that war didn't start until the US got involved,  WWII started in late 1941,  WWI in 1917, the Napoleonic Wars weren't even wars, the whole thing is just the War of 1812."  Paul Ryan.

"I’m to believe that North Korea is so dangerously unhinged that they would attack without warning – yet so meek and easily cowed that they will sit quietly and not retaliate when we start bombing them."

Major Kong

Check out the comments on this NRO defense of the Mitster

(#294052)

Here

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

"Ability to influence Med. sealanes" is probably

(#293910)

what he meant, but God it sounds stupid as phrased. Also, he's said the same thing over & over again.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/10/22/fact-che...

M Aurelius was probably right.

His VP choice isn't doing any better

(#293918)

"To compare modern American battleships and Navy with bayonets, I just don't understand that comparison. Look, we have to have a strong Navy to keep peace and prosperity and sea lanes open.... If all these defense cuts go through, our Navy will be smaller than it was before World War I. That's not acceptable. And, yes, the ocean hasn't shrunk."

Battleships? we don't have battleships anymore. Are Romney/Ryan proposing to commission some?

 

Clueless, Romney/Ryan have no understanding of the needs of a 21st century navy and lack any seriousness when it comes to debating the realities of how we meet our defense requirements. Leadership fail.

 

Also, WWI started in 1914, not 1917.

 

Also 2, the sequestration cuts he's referring to are the ones he voted for as part of last years budget deal. I guess he was for them before he was against them. Or perhaps they always counted on demagoguing the issue when it came time to pay the piper, a la sunsetting the Bush giveaways to the richy richies.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

The US Entered WWI In 1917

(#293919)
M Scott Eiland's picture

Happy to provide the history lesson.

The universe may well have been created without a point--that doesn't imply that we can't give it one.

Doesn't change the fact

(#293921)

that WWI began in 1914.

 

When did WWII start?

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

1919

(#294103)
HankP's picture

The Treaty of Versailles was signed in 1919.

I blame it all on the Internet

August 1914 directly led to the Treaty of Versailles.

(#294105)
mmghosh's picture

In that sense, what started in 1914 ended in 1945.

 

Why should we trust religious-minded conservative policymakers and laissez faire economics after their high point in 1914 - ever again? (I know this will gladden your heart, Hank!)

Not so sure about that

(#294108)
HankP's picture

just because there was a war didn't automatically mean that the treaty would have to be so punitive. Some people seem to have recognized this problem at the time.

 

Also not sure that 1914 was a high point - your ancestors were still colonial subjects after all, as was much of the non-European world. And businesses like the Dutch East India company were hardly laissez-faire.

I blame it all on the Internet

1889

(#294106)

Adolf Hitler was born in Austria-Hungary on the 20th April 1889.

 

God willed it, just like the gifts that are the offspring of rapists.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

1870.

(#294109)

Franco Prussian war. 1914 innevitable after that.

Why stop there, nyoos? Jena 1806.

(#294145)
mmghosh's picture

You could certainly make a very strong argument for that,

(#294165)

but 1870 was within living memory of 1914. 1806 was further back from 1870. There was the ongoing festering sore of reparations and Alsace - Lorraine after 1871 - just as we had on the other side after 1918. Ongoing German attempts to cauterise French military and economic expansion. Interestingly enough, in 1914 the French had an interest to use the war to crush their left wing politics, just as Germany did in the run up to 1939.

 

1806 was part of the wars of the French Empire against the coalitions. It's sort of an arbitrary taxonomy I suppose, but I would but 1870/71 together with the 2 following wars. After all, they were the only ones with a Germany in them. So far anyway.

Nah

(#294166)
HankP's picture

not inevitable, just the result of demagogues. The loss of Alsace and Lorraine stung, but then again the French were the ones who started the war. The reparations were nowhere near as punitive as the amounts leveled on Germany - 5 billion francs over 5 years was easy for France to afford considering the growth of their economy during La Belle Epoque. Like most wars it was caused by narcissism and pride.

I blame it all on the Internet

How about offering lessons

(#293922)

in why the current fleet strength of the Navy is "unacceptable." It appears to be news to the Navy.

M Aurelius was probably right.

A Romney/Ryan administration

(#293925)

would be rewarding defense contractors for donations made with increased orders.

 

Because the current order book is unacceptable to them.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

Holy Crap They've Contracted for 38 New Ships Since '10

(#293934)

From your link:

 

Mabus said that the ability to have a 300-ship fleet by 2019, up from today’s 282, was previously considered improbable because of past cuts in fleet size and the cost of building new vessels. For example, the number of ships in the fleet has dropped from 316 since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks even as the country went though a major defense buildup. In 2008, before Mabus became SECNAV, the Navy built three ships. Since 2010, the Navy has put 38 ships on contract, many on fixed-price deals.

 

 

Reagan wanted 600 ships

(#293936)

..whatever number is arrived at by careful deliberation doesn't matter. Republicans can always simply propose a bigger number. Not much use for navy ships in Iraq or Afghanistan, which is why the Navy got shortchanged during the windfall for defense contractors that were the Bush years.

"Something I think most liberals don't understand is exactly how stupid many conservative leaders are." - Matt Yglesias

300 ships is way too few.

(#293982)

At the outbreak of the war against the Peloponnese the Greeks were able to put many multiples of that to sea, and these were the very latest technology expertly crewed. They still lost, against a small rag tag grouping of iron age cities riven by infighting. Clearly you need a lot more than 300.

I think we need a crash program for Colliers

(#293984)
HankP's picture

The Navy has 0. That's 0. What kind of image does that give our enemies?

I blame it all on the Internet

300, 600, Whatevs

(#293998)

It struck me as another example of promising to do what Obama's already doing.

Mods, I didn't delete comment #294088

(#294089)

And would ask that one a bit more tech savvy than I have a look at it.  When I saw the 'submit ham' instead of 'submit spam' I figured there was enough quirky there to let an eggspert look at it.  Now I'm hungry for bacon.

BTW, it really did say submit ham instead of spam in case an over zealous mod kills it before reading this.

In the medical community, death is known as Chuck Norris Syndrome.